1 2016-04-24T00:08:50  <sipa> we should fix that
  2 2016-04-24T00:09:55  <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, when fuzzing deserialization, should i treat throwing exceptions as a crash or as an expected result
  3 2016-04-24T00:11:04  <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: depends on the exception.
  4 2016-04-24T00:11:36  <gmaxwell> The deceralization uses exceptions (spit) to do error reporting. So you shouldn't treat as crash ordinary errors during deseralization.
  5 2016-04-24T00:11:53  <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, the serialization stuff will throw std::ios_base::failure when there's a short read
  6 2016-04-24T00:14:15  <gmaxwell> Not a crash.
  7 2016-04-24T00:16:55  <phantomcircuit> ok that's what i thought
  8 2016-04-24T00:17:39  <gmaxwell> basically, you only want to treat as crashes things that you might possibly want to go fix.
  9 2016-04-24T00:17:42  <gmaxwell> :)
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 11 2016-04-24T00:22:09  <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, that reminds me (although i dont know why) that i wanted to do a vm with the glibcxx_debug flag
 12 2016-04-24T00:22:42  <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: that would be very handy to have.
 13 2016-04-24T00:22:42  <phantomcircuit> also fun fact
 14 2016-04-24T00:22:52  <phantomcircuit> the sort command is threaded
 15 2016-04-24T00:23:10  <gmaxwell> I know. it uses a merge sort with storage in /tmp.
 16 2016-04-24T00:23:23  <gmaxwell> it's actually quite good.
 17 2016-04-24T00:24:08  <midnightmagic> Un-fun fact. Sort uses the locale for sorting order, which if it's not 'c' and is e.g. en_CA.UTF-8, puts capital 'H' *after* lowercase 'i'.
 18 2016-04-24T00:25:23  <gmaxwell> yea, the standard posix string functions all became localized in the 90s. And this means that e.g. number parsing functions change behavior (comma vs dot handling) ... resuting in lots of broken software that was using them for handling file formats and network protocols.
 19 2016-04-24T00:25:36  <gmaxwell> Which goes back to my standard advice of not using strings anywhere normative. :)
 20 2016-04-24T00:25:49  <luke-jr> anyone know what testnet blocks made csv change states?
 21 2016-04-24T00:26:38  <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, something with timestamp around 1456790400,
 22 2016-04-24T00:26:44  <luke-jr> gmaxwell: don't you need to explicitly enable locales for POSIX?
 23 2016-04-24T00:26:49  <phantomcircuit> maybe?
 24 2016-04-24T00:46:59  <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, oops deleted my afl-cmin results
 25 2016-04-24T00:47:03  <phantomcircuit> :|
 26 2016-04-24T00:47:39  <phantomcircuit> https://github.com/pstratem/bitcoin-public/blob/2016-04-20-fuzzing-framework/src/bitcoin-fuzzy.cpp
 27 2016-04-24T00:47:48  <phantomcircuit> suggestions for more things to fuzz appreciated
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 32 2016-04-24T01:27:45  <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: CBlockHeader? CBanEntry? CTxUndo? CBlockUndo? CCoin? CNetAddr? CSubNet? CService? CMessageHeader? CAddress? CInv? CBloomFilter? CDiskBlockIndex? CTxOutCompressor? CBlockFileInfo? COutPoint? CTxIn? CTxOut?  wallet-- CMasterKey? CKeyPool? CWalletKey? CWalletTx? CAccountingEntry? CAccount? CKeyMetadata?
 33 2016-04-24T01:28:02  <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: some of these are used internally in others, so I'm not sure if they should be added at the top level or not.
 34 2016-04-24T01:28:03  <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, CBlockHeader is kind of covered by CBlock, but yeah
 35 2016-04-24T01:28:30  <gmaxwell> yea, well the rule should be if a hash or something is going to prevent AFL from finding an input that lets it reach thoe whole thing, you should go directly.
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 39 2016-04-24T02:14:00  <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: the next improvement you could do is, assuming the deseralization was successful you could try calling some methods on the object. (e.g. whatever we'd normally do after deseralizing it).
 40 2016-04-24T02:20:05  <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, heh one of these is crazy slow
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 50 2016-04-24T05:23:21  <GitHub117> [bitcoin] pstratem opened pull request #7930: CAddrMan::Deserialize Initialize to NULL on insane input. (master...2014-04-23-addrman-deserialize-limits) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7930
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 52 2016-04-24T05:24:22  <phantomcircuit> sipa, does ^ make any sense?
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 76 2016-04-24T09:43:33  <GitHub119> [bitcoin] pstratem opened pull request #7931: [WIP] Fuzzing framework (master...2016-04-20-fuzzing-framework) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7931
 77 2016-04-24T09:56:30  <phantomcircuit> lol wrong year
 78 2016-04-24T10:00:53  <GitHub198> [bitcoin] pstratem closed pull request #7930: CAddrMan::Deserialize Initialize to NULL on insane input. (master...2014-04-23-addrman-deserialize-limits) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7930
 79 2016-04-24T10:01:18  <GitHub54> [bitcoin] pstratem opened pull request #7932: CAddrMan::Deserialize handle corrupt serializations better. (master...2016-04-23-addrman-deserialize-limits) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7932
 80 2016-04-24T10:05:07  <sipa> phantomcircuit: it is 2016
 81 2016-04-24T10:05:31  <phantomcircuit> sipa, indeed
 82 2016-04-24T10:17:43  <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: bitcoin-fuzzy should probably be in test/
 83 2016-04-24T10:18:21  <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, accepting pull requests :P
 84 2016-04-24T10:18:32  <phantomcircuit> (every time i touch the build system things explode)
 85 2016-04-24T10:28:02  <phantomcircuit> lol whoops
 86 2016-04-24T10:28:35  <phantomcircuit> forgot to break!
 87 2016-04-24T10:43:44  * sipa breaks phantomcircuit
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 90 2016-04-24T11:34:54  <GitHub137> [bitcoin] pstratem closed pull request #7931: [WIP] Fuzzing framework (master...2016-04-20-fuzzing-framework) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7931
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 97 2016-04-24T12:34:49  <sipa> wumpus, jonasschnelli: i'm trying to call uiInterface.ShowProgress from the import thread (to show -reindex progress), but it results in a deadlocked UI
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107 2016-04-24T14:32:49  <GitHub10> [bitcoin] sipa opened pull request #7933: Fix OOM when deserializing UTXO entries with invalid length (master...fixcompressoroom) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7933
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116 2016-04-24T16:09:16  <NotAnNSAgent> .
117 2016-04-24T16:09:25  <NotAnNSAgent> Why is there no boolean flag for each transaction called something like "has_been_dealt_with"?
118 2016-04-24T16:09:34  <NotAnNSAgent> I must have my own, separate DB table just to store which txids have been dealt with? Or maybe there is? I can't see one.
119 2016-04-24T16:10:20  <sipa> define "dealt with"
120 2016-04-24T16:10:43  <sipa> seen? included in the mempool? rejected? relayed? in the utxo set? in the blockchain?
121 2016-04-24T16:11:35  <NotAnNSAgent> sipa: In my case, "recorded by application logic".
122 2016-04-24T16:11:51  <NotAnNSAgent> sipa: In the case of a GUI user, such as myself on this desktop computer, it would refer to "having seen it".
123 2016-04-24T16:12:06  <NotAnNSAgent> sipa: Transactions just come in and I have no idea which ones I've "seen" and "dealt with".
124 2016-04-24T16:12:36  <NotAnNSAgent> Since Windows 10, the Bitcoin Core client for Windows uses the awful Windows 10 notifications, which I've been forced to turn off globally.
125 2016-04-24T16:12:47  <NotAnNSAgent> As soon as I enable them, I'm constantly pestered by idiotic notifications.
126 2016-04-24T16:12:57  <NotAnNSAgent> And it appears to be impossible to enable them only for Bitcoin Core.
127 2016-04-24T16:13:37  <sipa> file an issue, please
128 2016-04-24T16:13:46  <NotAnNSAgent> I thought that was what I'm doing right now...
129 2016-04-24T16:14:02  <NotAnNSAgent> But my main issue is when using the bitcoind through the RCP API.
130 2016-04-24T16:14:09  <sipa> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/
131 2016-04-24T16:14:15  <NotAnNSAgent> Does the bitcoind/wallet.dat really store nothing of this sort?
132 2016-04-24T16:14:28  <sipa> the wallet remembers all wallet transactions
133 2016-04-24T16:14:50  <NotAnNSAgent> ?
134 2016-04-24T16:14:58  <sipa> i'm not sure what kind of notifications you're talking about, as i haven't used windows or the bitcoin core GUI in a long time
135 2016-04-24T16:15:15  <sipa> but if they're annoying, there should be a way to turn them off
136 2016-04-24T16:15:56  <NotAnNSAgent> How does my program display only new transactions?
137 2016-04-24T16:16:06  <NotAnNSAgent> It would have to manually remember which ones have been seen/dealt with.
138 2016-04-24T16:16:10  <sipa> what is 'your program' ?
139 2016-04-24T16:16:38  <NotAnNSAgent> Why doesn't the wallet.dat/bitcoind remember which transactions have been "processed" and which ones are new?
140 2016-04-24T16:17:00  <sipa> if you're talking about the wallet, it does
141 2016-04-24T16:17:00  <NotAnNSAgent> Is this really the case?
142 2016-04-24T16:17:08  <NotAnNSAgent> It does?
143 2016-04-24T16:17:16  <sipa> if you're talking about the verification logic, it does not and this should not matter
144 2016-04-24T16:17:19  <NotAnNSAgent> What's the API call called for figuring the status out?
145 2016-04-24T16:17:30  <sipa> can you please tell me what kind of notification you're talking about?
146 2016-04-24T16:17:41  <NotAnNSAgent> I'm not talking about any notifications...
147 2016-04-24T16:17:58  <NotAnNSAgent> I'm talking about a FLAG in the API for transactions that can be true or false.
148 2016-04-24T16:18:02  <NotAnNSAgent> Is there such a thing?
149 2016-04-24T16:18:12  <NotAnNSAgent> "has_been_processed" or something?
150 2016-04-24T16:18:49  <NotAnNSAgent> Something I can use to not have to store a separate database just to remember which txids I've processed?
151 2016-04-24T16:21:28  <sipa> if you're not talking about notification, then what does "has_been_processed" mean?
152 2016-04-24T16:21:41  <sipa> you're presumably using a polling mechanism to update the state
153 2016-04-24T16:21:58  <sipa> so the relevant question is whether you have already seen a transaction, not whether bitcoind had
154 2016-04-24T16:22:01  <sipa> *has
155 2016-04-24T16:26:13  <NotAnNSAgent> ...
156 2016-04-24T16:26:26  <NotAnNSAgent> So does this mean no?
157 2016-04-24T16:26:46  <sipa> i'm afraid i don't understand your question
158 2016-04-24T16:27:08  <sipa> you're trying to create an application that does something once for every transaction (every wallet transaction, i assume)?
159 2016-04-24T16:30:10  <sipa> if so, there are 2 possible mechanisms
160 2016-04-24T16:30:30  <sipa> either a polling-based approach (for example, listtransactions or getreceivedbyaddress RPC)
161 2016-04-24T16:30:43  <sipa> or a push-based approach (for example, -walletnotify or ZMQ)
162 2016-04-24T16:31:01  <sipa> in case of a polling approach, you'll only be notified once for each transaction
163 2016-04-24T16:31:11  <sipa> eh, in case of a push-based approach
164 2016-04-24T16:31:34  <sipa> in the case of a polling based approach, bitcoind cannot know what you have already seen or not, so there is no way to do what you're asking
165 2016-04-24T16:32:02  <sipa> but even if you're using ZMQ or -walletnotify, you'll still need to use RPC to sync up in case your application restarted for example
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168 2016-04-24T16:45:47  <NotAnNSAgent> sipa: That's why I don't use "walletnotify" directly.
169 2016-04-24T16:46:16  <NotAnNSAgent> sipa: I have "handle_new_bitcoin_donations.php" which I execute upon walletnotify (not caring about the %s you can send with it) as well as every hour as a cronjob.
170 2016-04-24T16:46:33  <NotAnNSAgent> sipa: That script simply grabs the latest 100 transactions and is supposed to "process" (do some application logic) for each new one.
171 2016-04-24T16:46:48  <NotAnNSAgent> sipa: In the situation I'm in, this is a dedicated server at home which has no SQL database installed/setup.
172 2016-04-24T16:47:10  <NotAnNSAgent> sipa: I was trying to get around having to set that up just to keep a list of all txids that my script has "processed"/"seen".
173 2016-04-24T16:47:52  <sipa> there is no solution for that, as bitcoind knows what it has seen, but it can't possibly know what you have seen
174 2016-04-24T16:48:11  <NotAnNSAgent> sipa: That's why it would be a boolean flag, as I've been trying to say a number of times now.
175 2016-04-24T16:48:24  <sipa> a boolean flag inside your application, yes
176 2016-04-24T16:48:25  <NotAnNSAgent> Meaning I would do something like "updateseenflag <txid> true".
177 2016-04-24T16:48:33  <sipa> bitcoind is not a database
178 2016-04-24T16:48:34  <NotAnNSAgent> (If it had supported that)
179 2016-04-24T16:48:42  <sipa> sorry, feature creep :)
180 2016-04-24T16:48:51  <NotAnNSAgent> sipa: How can you possibly call that feature creep?
181 2016-04-24T16:49:00  <NotAnNSAgent> It's the very basic associated flag IMO.
182 2016-04-24T16:49:32  <NotAnNSAgent> I mean, you can't rely on "walletnotify" to send once the txid and expect that the receiving script/server is up and running at that specific time, as you said.
183 2016-04-24T16:49:49  <NotAnNSAgent> So you have to do the "poll" method.
184 2016-04-24T16:50:15  <sipa> or use ZMQ, but still poll once at startup or whenever the connection is reset
185 2016-04-24T16:50:21  <NotAnNSAgent> I mean, as I said, I do use walletnotify, but only to "run the usual script" and not specifically for that txid (which I don't even capture).
186 2016-04-24T16:50:28  <NotAnNSAgent> What is ZMQ?
187 2016-04-24T16:50:35  <sipa> google is your friend
188 2016-04-24T16:50:39  <NotAnNSAgent> No, it's not.
189 2016-04-24T16:51:08  <sipa> sorry, i'm not your personal assistant
190 2016-04-24T16:51:31  <sipa> look into ZMQ, it may do what you want
191 2016-04-24T16:51:54  <sipa> otherwise, you'll need a database (or even just a text file!) in which you record what you've seen already and what you've done with it
192 2016-04-24T16:54:47  <luke-jr> NotAnNSAgent: your idea breaks down when you have more than 1 program "processing" transactions
193 2016-04-24T16:57:47  <sipa> despite that, it's open source, so you don't need anyone's permission to add such functionality to the code (for yourself, or present it as patch for including upstream)
194 2016-04-24T17:01:40  <GitHub188> [bitcoin] sipa opened pull request #7934: Improve rolling bloom filter performance and benchmark (master...benchrollingbloom) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7934
195 2016-04-24T17:02:08  <luke-jr> indeed, the wallet actually has extensibility that you could probably add it in a way that's backward compatible
196 2016-04-24T17:02:21  <luke-jr> and won't get removed if you accidentally run a non-compatible version
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199 2016-04-24T17:36:22  <NotAnNSAgent> Hmm @ multiple programs.
200 2016-04-24T17:36:31  <NotAnNSAgent> How often would you have that? Seems like an odd thing to do.
201 2016-04-24T17:37:17  <NotAnNSAgent> As for being open source... that's an fallacy. I'm not an expert coder and don't have the ability to sit down and figure out how everything works, much less release my own branch of that software from that point on.
202 2016-04-24T17:38:51  <sipa> NotAnNSAgent: you can pay someone :)
203 2016-04-24T17:39:35  <sipa> but it's also a fallacy to think that everyone has the same priorities for the code as you do
204 2016-04-24T17:40:44  <NotAnNSAgent> No, I can't pay someone.
205 2016-04-24T17:40:59  <NotAnNSAgent> You'd think this feature would've been thought of for 0.1.0.
206 2016-04-24T17:41:19  <NotAnNSAgent> Different Core question, about the GUI application. How do you edit labels?
207 2016-04-24T17:43:33  <luke-jr> 0.1.0 is not 1.0.0
208 2016-04-24T17:43:50  <luke-jr> and yes, you can pay someone; that's how code gets written typically
209 2016-04-24T17:44:07  <sipa> NotAnNSAgent: sorry, we're all volunteers here; code gets written that someone spends their time on
210 2016-04-24T17:44:14  <NotAnNSAgent> If they accept invisible money that I don't have, maybe.
211 2016-04-24T17:44:24  <NotAnNSAgent> Sure. Just trying to understand the reasoning.
212 2016-04-24T17:44:48  <NotAnNSAgent> I'll likely go for the text file.
213 2016-04-24T17:44:54  <NotAnNSAgent> But who knows what happens if it gets corrupted?
214 2016-04-24T17:45:04  <NotAnNSAgent> Or how slow it becomes after X transactions?
215 2016-04-24T17:45:06  <luke-jr> NotAnNSAgent: wallets can get corrupted just as easily
216 2016-04-24T17:45:15  <NotAnNSAgent> :/
217 2016-04-24T17:45:18  <luke-jr> and bitcoind's wallet is not optimised at all
218 2016-04-24T17:45:26  <NotAnNSAgent> Optimized?
219 2016-04-24T17:45:28  <sipa> if you need reliability, you need a backup mechanism
220 2016-04-24T17:45:47  <sipa> bitcoin core's wallet is design so it only needs a backup every 100 (or whatever you set the keypool size too) transactions
221 2016-04-24T17:46:09  <sipa> if you're going to put application data inside the wallet, that requirement becomes: for every transaction
222 2016-04-24T17:46:11  <luke-jr> sipa: well, you need a backup immediately for any metadata changes of course
223 2016-04-24T17:46:16  <sipa> luke-jr: indeed
224 2016-04-24T17:47:16  <luke-jr> hm, deadlock in almost-master
225 2016-04-24T17:48:10  <luke-jr> or not, maybe it's just busy :P
226 2016-04-24T17:48:27  <luke-jr> invalidateblock far back is slow <.<
227 2016-04-24T17:48:38  <sipa> luke-jr: haha, yes
228 2016-04-24T17:48:44  <sipa> it needs to rewind the entire UTXO set
229 2016-04-24T17:48:55  <sipa> though a lot is due to it trying to keep the mempool in sync
230 2016-04-24T17:49:04  <sipa> in segwit i have a patch that makes it bypass that
231 2016-04-24T17:50:39  <NotAnNSAgent> Makes sort of sense.
232 2016-04-24T17:50:42  <NotAnNSAgent> How do you edit labels in Core GUI?
233 2016-04-24T17:50:46  <NotAnNSAgent> Maybe it's not possible?
234 2016-04-24T17:50:54  <sipa> i have no idea, sorry
235 2016-04-24T17:55:28  <luke-jr> NotAnNSAgent: right click
236 2016-04-24T17:55:40  <luke-jr> (answering that was what I was trying to do when I realised it was blocked :P)
237 2016-04-24T17:56:12  <luke-jr> it's common sense though, in most cases
238 2016-04-24T17:56:24  <luke-jr> the one case that *doesn't* work sanely, is when you're sending via payment protocol
239 2016-04-24T17:56:40  <luke-jr> in that case, you have to go to the transaction list after you send, and edit it in
240 2016-04-24T17:57:30  <luke-jr> note that GUI labels aren't really well-supported in the RPC yet
241 2016-04-24T17:57:54  <sipa> there is a half-and-half overlap between RPC accounts and GUI labels
242 2016-04-24T18:07:42  <NotAnNSAgent> luke-jr: Right-click only has "Copy label".
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247 2016-04-24T18:39:52  <NotAnNSAgent> (This is not a practical problem anymore because I deleted it and created new ones)
248 2016-04-24T18:40:00  <NotAnNSAgent> But I still wonder what you meant.
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257 2016-04-24T19:19:06  <NotAnNSAgent> luke-jr, sipa, etc.: What is the "id" that I can send used for?
258 2016-04-24T19:19:30  <NotAnNSAgent> That is: 'jsonrpc' => '1.0', 'id' => 'curltest', 'method' => 'getbalance'
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261 2016-04-24T19:24:05  <sipa> NotAnNSAgent: it's part of the JSON-RPC specification
262 2016-04-24T19:24:20  <sipa> i think it's just echoed back in the response
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271 2016-04-24T20:20:25  <NotAnNSAgent> sipa: It is, but why?
272 2016-04-24T20:20:47  <NotAnNSAgent> Also, another question: sendfrom <-- What if I don't know which account (or no account) holds the money I want to send?
273 2016-04-24T20:20:58  <NotAnNSAgent> Or rather, I didn't assign it to any particular account.
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280 2016-04-24T20:36:04  <sipa> NotAnNSAgent: then you're using the "" account
281 2016-04-24T20:36:40  *** dgenr8 has quit IRC
282 2016-04-24T20:36:42  <sipa> NotAnNSAgent: for why, i din't know... ask the people who wrote the JSOn-RPC spec :)
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284 2016-04-24T20:44:42  <NotAnNSAgent> Hmm.
285 2016-04-24T20:44:59  <NotAnNSAgent> sipa: "<amount> is a real and is rounded to 8 decimal places." <-- 0.1 seems to not mean "one tenth of a Bitcoin".
286 2016-04-24T20:45:04  <NotAnNSAgent> (Thanks for the "" account tip)
287 2016-04-24T20:45:19  <sipa> yes it does mean that
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291 2016-04-24T20:54:13  <NotAnNSAgent> sipa: Hmm. It doesn't seem to take 0.1 away from the balance.
292 2016-04-24T20:54:33  <NotAnNSAgent> Maybe something weird is happening because I'm not quoting it, and PHP is mangling it or something.
293 2016-04-24T20:55:39  <NotAnNSAgent> Oh. No. I just interpreted the data wrong. Sorry.
294 2016-04-24T20:56:00  <NotAnNSAgent> Hmm. I'm somewhat confident that my tests are now ready to be turned live. But that's scary.
295 2016-04-24T20:56:09  <NotAnNSAgent> I've essentially coded a little "bank" this last week.
296 2016-04-24T20:56:18  <NotAnNSAgent> Based around a bitcoind-
297 2016-04-24T20:59:19  <NotAnNSAgent> Have "accounts" existed since the very beginning?
298 2016-04-24T20:59:23  <NotAnNSAgent> Very useful they are.
299 2016-04-24T21:00:01  <NotAnNSAgent> Though I wonder how that works out with pre-generated safety addresses which aren't assigned to any account.
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302 2016-04-24T21:03:04  <sipa> NotAnNSAgent: those are not assigned an address until you call getnewaddress
303 2016-04-24T21:03:09  <sipa> eh, a label
304 2016-04-24T21:03:20  <sipa> also, accounts are very likely not doing what you think they are
305 2016-04-24T21:04:09  <NotAnNSAgent> A label?
306 2016-04-24T21:04:22  <NotAnNSAgent> A label is something different from an account... no? Why did you call accounts labels right now?
307 2016-04-24T21:04:23  <sipa> and are deprecated and planned to be removed (and just be replaced by address labels)
308 2016-04-24T21:04:42  <sipa> labels and accounts are effectively the same thing
309 2016-04-24T21:04:44  <NotAnNSAgent> Are you saying that I've just implemented a deprecated concept?
310 2016-04-24T21:04:56  <NotAnNSAgent> I've followed this: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Original_Bitcoin_client/API_calls_list
311 2016-04-24T21:05:00  <NotAnNSAgent> Is this wrong?
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313 2016-04-24T21:06:00  <sipa> the wiki is full of very olddated information
314 2016-04-24T21:06:24  <sipa> i suggest using the developer documentation on bitcoin.org
315 2016-04-24T21:07:18  <NotAnNSAgent> ...
316 2016-04-24T21:07:31  <NotAnNSAgent> https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-reference#bitcoin-core-apis <-- This page doesn't seem to even display correctly.
317 2016-04-24T21:07:39  <NotAnNSAgent> And says it has not been reviewed.
318 2016-04-24T21:09:05  <sipa> pro life tip: thongs that indicate they have shortcomings are often much better than random claims :)
319 2016-04-24T21:09:27  <sipa> the information on the wiki is so wrong in many places that people stopped bothering to correct it
320 2016-04-24T21:09:55  <NotAnNSAgent> sipa: That's just swell.
321 2016-04-24T21:10:01  <NotAnNSAgent> I've been using it as a reference.
322 2016-04-24T21:10:07  <NotAnNSAgent> And no warnings anywhere.
323 2016-04-24T21:10:13  <btcdrak> sipa: thongs? o.0
324 2016-04-24T21:10:13  <NotAnNSAgent> Except a link to that weird documentation.
325 2016-04-24T21:10:47  <NotAnNSAgent> I find that link very messy.
326 2016-04-24T21:10:56  <NotAnNSAgent> And I'm not just saying that because I've been using the old one.
327 2016-04-24T21:11:08  <sipa> help improve it then :)
328 2016-04-24T21:11:25  <NotAnNSAgent> From what I can tell, the stuff I have works. But what you say about accounts being deprecated sounds insane to me.
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330 2016-04-24T21:11:30  <NotAnNSAgent> It seems to be a core concept.
331 2016-04-24T21:11:37  <NotAnNSAgent> Having no "accounts" within a wallet would make it useless.
332 2016-04-24T21:11:43  <NotAnNSAgent> For anything but academic usage.
333 2016-04-24T21:11:56  <NotAnNSAgent> I really hope no syntax changes will be necessary.
334 2016-04-24T21:12:10  <NotAnNSAgent> Preserving backwards compatibility should be of utmost importance.
335 2016-04-24T21:12:19  <sipa> accounts are pretty much incompatible with backups, for example
336 2016-04-24T21:12:28  <NotAnNSAgent> ?
337 2016-04-24T21:12:35  <sipa> as you can't reconstruct account information from the blockchain
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339 2016-04-24T21:13:03  <sipa> if your wallet gets corrupted, you lose your accounting information, which for some businesses may be worse than losing money
340 2016-04-24T21:13:29  <NotAnNSAgent> Okay. Please listen: we, the users, do not like it when you, the developers, change stuff around. Even if it's stupid, we want a reliable API to use and not have to constantly change our code. We want solid, robust stuff that can be relied upon.
341 2016-04-24T21:13:42  <sipa> it's been deprecated for years
342 2016-04-24T21:13:47  <NotAnNSAgent> The wallet.dat still contains it, no?!
343 2016-04-24T21:13:56  <NotAnNSAgent> I really hope you're just joking or something.
344 2016-04-24T21:13:57  <sipa> not if your wallet.dat gets corrupted
345 2016-04-24T21:14:05  <NotAnNSAgent> That's why you have backups of wallet.dat?
346 2016-04-24T21:14:25  <sipa> are you making a backup after every transaction?
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350 2016-04-24T21:14:50  <NotAnNSAgent> No, but often.
351 2016-04-24T21:14:57  <sipa> not enough, if you use accounts
352 2016-04-24T21:15:10  <NotAnNSAgent> "sendfrom <fromaccount> <tobitcoinaddress> <amount>" <-- Are you saying that at some point in the near future, I'll upgrade my bitcoind and this will cease to work?
353 2016-04-24T21:15:19  <sipa> yes
354 2016-04-24T21:15:21  <NotAnNSAgent> .........
355 2016-04-24T21:15:26  <NotAnNSAgent> And it's replaced by what exactly?
356 2016-04-24T21:15:37  <sipa> let me first ask you this
357 2016-04-24T21:15:43  <sipa> what do you think that RPC does?
358 2016-04-24T21:15:54  <NotAnNSAgent> Lets me talk to bitcoind.
359 2016-04-24T21:16:00  <sipa> so far so good
360 2016-04-24T21:16:05  <belcher> NotAnNSAgent do you have anything online that uses accounts?
361 2016-04-24T21:16:19  <NotAnNSAgent> belcher: No, but I thought I was ready literally minutes ago.
362 2016-04-24T21:16:40  <NotAnNSAgent> My test finished successfully, etc.
363 2016-04-24T21:17:03  <NotAnNSAgent> I just casually mentioned how much I liked accounts, and then I learn that it's deprecated!
364 2016-04-24T21:17:17  <sipa> NotAnNSAgent: say you have address A1 and address A2, A1 received a transaction paying it 1 BTC, A2 received a transaction paying it 2 BTC
365 2016-04-24T21:17:29  <belcher> well they are, since before i got interested in bitcoin
366 2016-04-24T21:17:54  <sipa> NotAnNSAgent: address A1 is associated with account L1, address A2 js associated with account L2
367 2016-04-24T21:18:14  <sipa> NotAnNSAgent: you do sendfrom L1 someaddress 1.5
368 2016-04-24T21:18:20  <sipa> what happens?
369 2016-04-24T21:18:45  <NotAnNSAgent> It fails because it doesn't have enough money? (Assuming they both had 0 initially)
370 2016-04-24T21:18:58  <sipa> wrong, it succeeds, and L1 goes to -0.5
371 2016-04-24T21:19:13  <NotAnNSAgent> o_O
372 2016-04-24T21:19:16  <NotAnNSAgent> Minus?
373 2016-04-24T21:19:19  <NotAnNSAgent> How is that possible?
374 2016-04-24T21:19:35  <sipa> because accounts do not do anything near what you think they do
375 2016-04-24T21:20:14  <sipa> you've read the documentation for a few minutes, and thought they were cool, made assumptions about what they do, and started using them with a few tests
376 2016-04-24T21:20:29  <sipa> and they are useful, for a few very narrow cases
377 2016-04-24T21:20:36  <sipa> but almost everybody misunderstands them
378 2016-04-24T21:20:58  <NotAnNSAgent> Seems like accounts were improperly designed to me. :/
379 2016-04-24T21:21:02  <NotAnNSAgent> If you can get negative amounts.
380 2016-04-24T21:21:04  <sipa> and recently we had a problem among developers where we were not even sure what a particular getbalance call was supposed to do wrt accounts
381 2016-04-24T21:21:28  <NotAnNSAgent> So L1 steals 0.5 BTC from the other accounts in the wallet?
382 2016-04-24T21:21:33  <sturles> Negative amounts is a feature, if you ask me.
383 2016-04-24T21:21:47  <gmaxwell> NotAnNSAgent: No, accounts are not wallets. They're accounting records.
384 2016-04-24T21:21:50  <sipa> NotAnNSAgent: you're making assumptions
385 2016-04-24T21:22:14  <sipa> NotAnNSAgent: an account just keeps track of how much (in BTC) in a wallet belongs to a particular user
386 2016-04-24T21:22:27  <gmaxwell> user/use
387 2016-04-24T21:22:30  <sipa> it does not have anything to do with which transactions or coins
388 2016-04-24T21:22:38  <NotAnNSAgent> If, in the example, you send more BTC than what exists in the "account" inside the wallet.dat (which contains the two accounts L1 and L2), I certainly hope that that money is taken from some place, or else anyone could generate free Bitcoins.
389 2016-04-24T21:22:40  <sipa> the coins in your wallet are shared across all accounts
390 2016-04-24T21:23:22  <NotAnNSAgent> Alright, so I have to redo everything. And I don't even know how.
391 2016-04-24T21:23:30  <NotAnNSAgent> No accounts...
392 2016-04-24T21:23:50  <sipa> at least i hope you now understand why they are deprecated: evrryone misunderstands them
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394 2016-04-24T21:24:53  <Arnavion> You'd think the nomenclature of having multiple accounts within the same wallet would give a hint that they don't mean what you'd expect
395 2016-04-24T21:24:54  <NotAnNSAgent> Apparently. I sure did.
396 2016-04-24T21:24:55  <sipa> in fact, we recently came across some weird behaviour in tje getbalance call, and nobody including developers were even sure what the correct behaviour would be
397 2016-04-24T21:25:20  <sipa> yes, there is talk about having just multiple wallet simultaneously
398 2016-04-24T21:25:31  <NotAnNSAgent> But then why does this up-to-date, apparently-official manual mention accounts for the very same API call? https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-reference#sendfrom
399 2016-04-24T21:25:44  <sipa> nothing official
400 2016-04-24T21:25:53  <sipa> and it does describe how it works
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402 2016-04-24T21:26:29  <gmaxwell> I think you're conflating multiple things; regardless of it being consider depricated; it's still there right now and still works as it always has.
403 2016-04-24T21:27:12  <sipa> NotAnNSAgent: i can tell you that the transition to no accounts anymore will not hapoen instantly, as there are indeed people who rely on them, and use them the way they were intended to be used
404 2016-04-24T21:27:47  <gmaxwell> It still continues to do what it's described to do; which is not what a lot of people initially think it does. (and often what they think it does isn't actually possible; or is equivilent to multiple wallets, with the overheads that involves)
405 2016-04-24T21:28:11  <sipa> but it's good to know that we should probably ask the bitcoin.org people to mark those RPCs as deprecated on the site
406 2016-04-24T21:28:32  <gmaxwell> Just axing out accounts would really screw up my tax reporting; unless they were at least replaced with labels.
407 2016-04-24T21:29:03  <sipa> only account balances will go away, you'll still be able to list transactions by label
408 2016-04-24T21:29:41  <sturles> I use accounts to kepp track of incoming BTC from users.  BTC sold to me via my autobuy service.  When the money has been transfered, I move the BTC to a different account.  This is an extra safety for me, to make sure I have paid for every BTC I use or sell to other people, and in case I lose other records.  I started to use accounts when I missed one payout due to a glitch in my walletnotify
409 2016-04-24T21:29:47  <sturles> script, and never missed a payout since.  If account balances are lost, this failsafe would be gone. :-(
410 2016-04-24T21:31:13  <gmaxwell> sturles: the lack of good durability options for bitcoin wallets probably makes that workflow suboptimal. You probably want to have something that lets you send a transaction atomically with making a backup.
411 2016-04-24T21:32:13  <gmaxwell> I guess we kind of have that possiblity now with walletbroadcast off... e.g. you'd make all your transactions but don't broadcast yet, backup with wallet. Then broadcast.
412 2016-04-24T21:32:53  <sturles> Would be perfect, but my transaction volume is low enough that I can live with somewhat suboptimal.
413 2016-04-24T21:34:28  <sturles> I could transfer funds to a different address when paid for, but that would cost transaction fees and block space.
414 2016-04-24T21:34:41  <NotAnNSAgent> Why was the decision made to make "accounts" behave in this odd, unintuitive manner?
415 2016-04-24T21:35:03  * sturles doesn't think it is unintuitive..
416 2016-04-24T21:35:11  <gmaxwell> NotAnNSAgent: it's very sensible for the purpose they were created for. They're an overlay accounting system.
417 2016-04-24T21:36:11  <NotAnNSAgent> But the syntax is literally: "sendfrom <fromaccount> <tobitcoinaddress> <amount>", even in the current documentation.
418 2016-04-24T21:36:19  <gmaxwell> They let you tag incoming payments as payments to accounts, outgoing payments as payments from accounts, and let you enter correcting ledger entries.
419 2016-04-24T21:37:40  <gmaxwell> There isn't  really any "from" in the design of the bitcoin protocol in any case-- that people often think there is an artifact of the forensic analysis done by block explorers and the presentation of that analysis as 'transactions' in a way that doesn't actually reflect the operation of the bitcoin system.
420 2016-04-24T21:38:05  <gmaxwell> I think this is why the rate of misunderstanding accounts increased over time, people were expecting there to be "from" in transactions.
421 2016-04-24T21:38:18  <gmaxwell> and then it looks like the API is setting it.
422 2016-04-24T21:38:43  <gmaxwell> ( see also: https://iwilcox.me.uk/2014/no-from-address )
423 2016-04-24T21:38:48  <NotAnNSAgent> Well, the manual I'm looking at, which is the official one unless I'm mistaken, doesn't even mention that this is being deprecated.
424 2016-04-24T21:39:13  <NotAnNSAgent> https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-reference#sendfrom
425 2016-04-24T21:39:42  <NotAnNSAgent> Somebody said it's been in "deprecated" state for years already.
426 2016-04-24T21:39:45  <NotAnNSAgent> And soon will be removed.
427 2016-04-24T21:39:54  <NotAnNSAgent> But the up-to-date manual doesn't even mention this fact.
428 2016-04-24T21:40:19  <sipa> Please stop saying official. There is no such thing.
429 2016-04-24T21:40:39  <sipa> Nobody said they will be removed soo
430 2016-04-24T21:40:57  <sipa> They have indeed been deprecated for a long time.
431 2016-04-24T21:41:27  <NotAnNSAgent> Alright, so if they are, then what do I do in place of "accounts"? And is this outlined nowhere?
432 2016-04-24T21:41:46  <NotAnNSAgent> Somebody mentioned "labels", but they already exist as "labels" for transactions.
433 2016-04-24T21:41:51  <NotAnNSAgent> And seem to be local only.
434 2016-04-24T21:42:04  <gmaxwell> everything is local only.
435 2016-04-24T21:42:09  <sipa> accounts are also local only
436 2016-04-24T21:42:12  <NotAnNSAgent> Good point.
437 2016-04-24T21:42:24  <gmaxwell> At no point have you mentioned what you're trying to accomplish, so no one can answer "what do I do in place".
438 2016-04-24T21:42:37  <NotAnNSAgent> But labels aren't exactly... um... the labels I'm thinking of are like "Payment for the bicycle from Joe". Not "someservice".
439 2016-04-24T21:42:56  <NotAnNSAgent> gmaxwell: I'm trying to have one wallet.dat/bitcoind, but deal with multiple "accounts" of money.
440 2016-04-24T21:43:03  <NotAnNSAgent> Namely for two separate services I run.
441 2016-04-24T21:43:12  <sipa> so you want multiple wallets, really
442 2016-04-24T21:43:15  <NotAnNSAgent> They must never share money.
443 2016-04-24T21:43:30  <sipa> i mean: you want something to behave as if they acted as two separate wallets
444 2016-04-24T21:43:40  <NotAnNSAgent> That's why I thought "accounts" existed.
445 2016-04-24T21:43:42  <sipa> bitcoind does not support this; there are other wallets out there that do
446 2016-04-24T21:44:16  <NotAnNSAgent> Now you're just being ridiculous. Are you saying that every Bitcoin business in the world uses third-party clients because the official one only allows one single wallet?
447 2016-04-24T21:44:48  <sipa> bitcoind does many things, and a wallet is only one of them
448 2016-04-24T21:44:53  <gmaxwell> "they must never share money." < Thats multiple wallets that you want. You can run multiple bitcoinds, with pruning each will use a couple gigs of disk space.
449 2016-04-24T21:45:22  <sipa> its wallet implementation is a reference one, certainly not the most advanced nor the one most development work goes towards
450 2016-04-24T21:45:26  <NotAnNSAgent> You know, I was really proud an hour ago or so when I had finally finished (I thought) this complex system...
451 2016-04-24T21:46:13  <gmaxwell> NotAnNSAgent: multiple wallets is very simple... run multiple wallets, connect to the correct one. Done. :)
452 2016-04-24T21:46:30  <NotAnNSAgent> Why would it require multiple blockchains?
453 2016-04-24T21:46:38  <gmaxwell> It doesn't, not with pruning.
454 2016-04-24T21:46:47  <NotAnNSAgent> Pruning is a whole problem in itself.
455 2016-04-24T21:47:00  <gmaxwell> uh. What?
456 2016-04-24T21:47:04  <NotAnNSAgent> I'm stuck with 0.11.x and only 0.12.x does it. This is why I went out of my way to make a separate computer to just run Bitcoind.
457 2016-04-24T21:47:22  <gmaxwell> How are you 'stuck with 0.11.x'?
458 2016-04-24T21:47:31  <NotAnNSAgent> Because 0.12.x doesn't exist on FreeBSD.
459 2016-04-24T21:47:47  <sipa> i'm sure you can run a compiler if you use FreeBSD
460 2016-04-24T21:47:48  <gmaxwell> Sure it does. Do you mean ports hasn't updated to it?
461 2016-04-24T21:47:54  <NotAnNSAgent> But even if it did, I wouldn't wanna run multiple different instances of bitcoind. That simply cannot be necessary. I refuse to believe that.
462 2016-04-24T21:48:03  <sipa> it is not necessary
463 2016-04-24T21:48:06  <NotAnNSAgent> There is no pkg except for 0.11.x, yes.
464 2016-04-24T21:48:22  <sipa> and it's silly that you can't have two wallets in one bitcoind, i fully agree
465 2016-04-24T21:48:45  <sipa> bit someone has to do the work to make that happen, someone has to test it, has to review it, has to maintain it
466 2016-04-24T21:49:05  <sipa> few people have showed up before to do that when there was talk of having multiple wallets
467 2016-04-24T21:49:11  <gmaxwell> I agree that it's a silly limitation, otoh, it's trivial to work around-- in a very safe and reliable way--, which is part of why no one has stepped up to fix that.
468 2016-04-24T21:49:41  <gmaxwell> (as running multiple bitcoinds, especially with pruning, is a trival cost-- much cheaper than opening multiple bank accounts. :) )
469 2016-04-24T21:50:10  <NotAnNSAgent> Trivial to work around? I'd have to run separate blockchains (ridiculous), not to mention it's a nightmare already to attempt to "restart" (kill and relaunch command) my one bitcoind...
470 2016-04-24T21:50:22  <gmaxwell> And having multiple wallets in one bitcoind is more complex than you might guess at a glance; for example, you don't want to allow any privacy cross linking of them.
471 2016-04-24T21:50:23  <NotAnNSAgent> And there is no pruning for me as mentioned.
472 2016-04-24T21:50:51  <gmaxwell> NotAnNSAgent: you're running outdated software which is several releases behind, lacking the latest security and performance fixes...
473 2016-04-24T21:51:34  <NotAnNSAgent> Tell that to the maintainer who doesn't respond to e-mails and doesn't take his job seriously.
474 2016-04-24T21:51:47  <sipa> are you paying him.
475 2016-04-24T21:51:49  <sipa> ?
476 2016-04-24T21:52:04  <sipa> no? then don't complain about the work of volunteers
477 2016-04-24T21:52:10  <NotAnNSAgent> Crazy concept: doing something for other reasons than getting paid.
478 2016-04-24T21:52:18  <gmaxwell> I can try pinging too. But this might be an argument against using freebsd if you're going to depend on packages that don't get updated.
479 2016-04-24T21:52:48  <gmaxwell> NotAnNSAgent: sure, it would be nice but you can only ask for so much.
480 2016-04-24T21:52:59  <NotAnNSAgent> I'm told to not use FreeBSD every time I mention a problem I'm having. If it were easy, I would switch.
481 2016-04-24T21:53:11  <sipa> NotAnNSAgent: for the longest time i was not paid to work on bitcoin, and i still spent weekends and evenings on it. please don't say that money is the only reason to do things
482 2016-04-24T21:53:33  <NotAnNSAgent> You used it as an argument, though.
483 2016-04-24T21:53:38  <sipa> NotAnNSAgent: but you don't complain about the work of volunteers
484 2016-04-24T21:53:38  <gmaxwell> NotAnNSAgent: well I'm not telling you to switch, just pointing out that its a consideration that has to be taken in totality.
485 2016-04-24T21:53:43  <NotAnNSAgent> And of course nobody is saying that this is easy. I'd never say that.
486 2016-04-24T21:54:45  <NotAnNSAgent> My experiences especially these last few weeks have really convinced me that Bitcoin has a looooong way to go before it can be implemented by anyone other than hardcore experts.
487 2016-04-24T21:54:58  <NotAnNSAgent> I shouldn't say "implemented".
488 2016-04-24T21:55:01  <NotAnNSAgent> More like "deployed".
489 2016-04-24T21:55:06  <gmaxwell> In any case, 0.12.1 should build cleanly on freebsd without any modifications. If it doesn't we'd love to know about it and fix them for the next release.
490 2016-04-24T21:55:38  <NotAnNSAgent> gmaxwell: I actually tried to build it on my FreeBSD box. It failed with some requirement of a db4.h or something along those lines.
491 2016-04-24T21:55:54  <sipa> NotAnNSAgent: use --with-incompatible-bdb
492 2016-04-24T21:55:54  <NotAnNSAgent> I already had db4-something as an installed package, but that wasn't good enough because it doesn't contain the source code.
493 2016-04-24T21:56:30  <sipa> ah, yes, you'll need development headers
494 2016-04-24T21:56:30  <NotAnNSAgent> Incompatible BDB :S
495 2016-04-24T21:56:36  <gmaxwell> NotAnNSAgent: not that I'd disagree, but you've given yourself some disadavantages:  you're using a less common and less well maintained platform, and you're trying to put two totally seperate uses on a single system, for example.  These are things that _should_ still work well, I agree. But your expirence may not be typical. :)
496 2016-04-24T21:57:41  <NotAnNSAgent> Even if I wanted to switch right now, I couldn't pick one of the numerous Linux distros. That would simply be impossible for me. And of course I'd have to recode every single script and learn how everything is done in that OS... to me, that is like going through a heart transplant.
497 2016-04-24T21:58:30  *** Chris_Stewart_5 has quit IRC
498 2016-04-24T21:59:12  <sipa> NotAnNSAgent: i must say that i'm somewhat surprised to see someone comment about using bitcoin on both Win10 and FreeBSD :)
499 2016-04-24T21:59:19  <NotAnNSAgent> At some point, I tried to "give up and just use Bitpay or Coinbase", but both of those require you to send them "proof of business" and a bunch of nonsense like that (which they reveal only after registering, of course).
500 2016-04-24T21:59:21  <sipa> NotAnNSAgent: not meant in a bad way, just curious
501 2016-04-24T21:59:43  <NotAnNSAgent> What's so surprising? I don't know if I've mentioned Windows 10, but yes, I run that on the desktop.
502 2016-04-24T22:00:02  <sipa> 18:12:28 < NotAnNSAgent> Since Windows 10, the Bitcoin Core client for Windows uses the awful Windows 10 notifications, which I've been forced to turn off globally.
503 2016-04-24T22:00:08  <NotAnNSAgent> Ah. Yes.
504 2016-04-24T22:00:54  <NotAnNSAgent> When I picked FreeBSD, the year was 2000 or something.
505 2016-04-24T22:01:23  *** Chris_Stewart_5 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
506 2016-04-24T22:01:28  <sipa> Ha, that's when I last used Windows (ME!), and switched to Debian :)
507 2016-04-24T22:02:20  <sipa> NotAnNSAgent: btw, can you file an issue for those notifications?
508 2016-04-24T22:05:13  <NotAnNSAgent> I'm often told to "file a bug" or "file a PR" etc. for various open source projects. When I try, I never receive a verification e-mail and then I forget about it. I've come to consider such tasks to be real chores that are far worse than carrying heavy objects around in real life.
509 2016-04-24T22:06:11  <sipa> I can do it for you, but I don't even have any idea what notifications you're talking about
510 2016-04-24T22:07:20  <sipa> I do understand the burden of registering on github, but the best thing you can do right now to get the problem fixed eventually, is to provide as much information about it on a report.
511 2016-04-24T22:07:46  <NotAnNSAgent> The notifications thing really is a non-issue in comparison to this.
512 2016-04-24T22:08:28  <sipa> Doesn't mean it can't get attention, probably by very different people.
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514 2016-04-24T22:10:50  <NotAnNSAgent> Essentially, I hate the Windows 10 notifications but loved the old, pre-Windows 10 balloon tips.
515 2016-04-24T22:11:08  <NotAnNSAgent> The Win10 ones are flooding me with useless notifications such as "all transfers finished" in FileZilla, making them useless.
516 2016-04-24T22:11:18  <NotAnNSAgent> Or "Get Office 360 for cheap!"
517 2016-04-24T22:11:31  <NotAnNSAgent> But the old balloon tips nicely stayed there until I saw them.
518 2016-04-24T22:11:35  <NotAnNSAgent> And no junk ones.
519 2016-04-24T22:11:53  <NotAnNSAgent> There is supposedly a way to turn off notifications for all but your chosen "apps", but it doesn't actually seem to work.
520 2016-04-24T22:13:44  <NotAnNSAgent> What disturbs me the most about all of this is probably that even the current documentation doesn't reflect this MAJOR (IMO) change.
521 2016-04-24T22:13:59  <NotAnNSAgent> Do you developers have some internal documentation that you use?
522 2016-04-24T22:14:08  *** Guyver2_ has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
523 2016-04-24T22:14:33  <belcher> i think i found out accounts were deprecated from the bitcoin wiki or something
524 2016-04-24T22:14:43  <belcher> or maybe when you run help json-rpc
525 2016-04-24T22:14:59  <NotAnNSAgent> belcher: https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-reference#sendfrom
526 2016-04-24T22:15:10  <NotAnNSAgent> It's acting as if accounts are alive and well.
527 2016-04-24T22:15:20  <belcher> whoops wrong channel
528 2016-04-24T22:16:56  <belcher> if you run 'help getaccount' on json-rpc (or anything accounts related i guess) it tells you they're deprecated
529 2016-04-24T22:17:15  <molz> belcher, on the wallet qt, if you type in the console "help getaccount", it tells you "DEPRECATED. Returns the account associated with the given address." so i don't think anyone can miss it
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532 2016-04-24T22:18:01  <NotAnNSAgent> Yeah, that's totally gonna happen.
533 2016-04-24T22:19:09  <sipa> that's the only "official" documentation there is, though :)
534 2016-04-24T22:19:46  <NotAnNSAgent> I don't even know what "run 'help getaccount' on json-rpc" means.
535 2016-04-24T22:19:47  <NotAnNSAgent> How can you run a "help" command inside an API call?
536 2016-04-24T22:19:57  <NotAnNSAgent> That sounds like something that would be run on the command line.
537 2016-04-24T22:20:21  <sipa> you send the 'help' RPC with the name of the command as argument
538 2016-04-24T22:20:30  <NotAnNSAgent> So... I can't believe I'm asking this, but... how do you *actually* send money?
539 2016-04-24T22:20:38  <sipa> sendtoaddress
540 2016-04-24T22:20:38  <NotAnNSAgent> Since the account stuff is false.
541 2016-04-24T22:20:57  <sipa> or sendmany
542 2016-04-24T22:21:27  <sipa> or the createrawtransaction / fundrawtransaction / signrawtransaction / sendrawtransaction approach, if you want more low-level control
543 2016-04-24T22:22:57  <NotAnNSAgent> I think you must be using the same underlying documentation software as Stripe.
544 2016-04-24T22:23:06  <sipa> ?
545 2016-04-24T22:23:10  <NotAnNSAgent> Because Stripe also nearly crashes my browser every time I load their documentation pages.
546 2016-04-24T22:23:27  <NotAnNSAgent> sipa: I'm referring to https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-reference#sendtoaddress
547 2016-04-24T22:23:40  <sipa> i don't run that site; i just recommended it
548 2016-04-24T22:24:17  <sipa> works fine here
549 2016-04-24T22:24:21  <NotAnNSAgent> I mean "you" as in "Bitcoin developers".
550 2016-04-24T22:24:42  <sipa> Bitcoin developers do not run that site.
551 2016-04-24T22:24:53  <sipa> at least, not the Bitcoin Core maintainers
552 2016-04-24T22:26:12  <NotAnNSAgent> Where is the actual manual for Bitcoin?
553 2016-04-24T22:26:24  <NotAnNSAgent> If Bitcoin.org is unofficial.
554 2016-04-24T22:26:29  <NotAnNSAgent> I know you don't like the term "official".
555 2016-04-24T22:26:53  <sipa> the documentation for the RPC interface is available through the 'help' RPC
556 2016-04-24T22:27:30  <NotAnNSAgent> So in other words, there is no manual? Other than hidden inside RPC API calls?
557 2016-04-24T22:28:33  <sipa> i wouldn't call it hidden, but if you're looking for a reference, no
558 2016-04-24T22:28:51  <sipa> the documentation on bitcoin.org is often very good though, and better than what developers would write :)
559 2016-04-24T22:31:06  <NotAnNSAgent> Except when it fails to mention crucial facts.
560 2016-04-24T22:31:33  <NotAnNSAgent> Which could only be known to somebody who is very intimately familiar with the Bitcoin development process.
561 2016-04-24T22:31:56  *** sipa has left #bitcoin-core-dev
562 2016-04-24T22:31:59  <NotAnNSAgent> There is no way I could code another line in this state. Too pissed off and disillusioned.
563 2016-04-24T22:32:06  <NotAnNSAgent> Must take a long damn nightly walk or something.
564 2016-04-24T22:32:08  <NotAnNSAgent> BBL.
565 2016-04-24T22:32:16  *** NotAnNSAgent has quit IRC
566 2016-04-24T22:41:28  <achow101> how is median time past calculated
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