1 2016-07-02T00:10:52 *** Chris_Stewart_5 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 2 2016-07-02T00:23:51 *** pedrobranco has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 3 2016-07-02T00:26:57 *** TheFactory7 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 4 2016-07-02T00:28:07 *** pedrobranco has quit IRC 5 2016-07-02T01:16:11 *** Alopex has quit IRC 6 2016-07-02T01:17:16 *** Alopex has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 7 2016-07-02T01:40:32 *** LeMiner has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 8 2016-07-02T01:41:06 *** Alopex has quit IRC 9 2016-07-02T01:42:12 *** Alopex has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 10 2016-07-02T01:50:10 *** Chris_Stewart_5 has quit IRC 11 2016-07-02T01:54:18 *** justanotheruser has quit IRC 12 2016-07-02T01:54:46 *** justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 13 2016-07-02T01:58:11 <adiabat> Hey I have a humble suggestion 14 2016-07-02T01:58:15 <adiabat> doesn't really change functionality 15 2016-07-02T01:58:30 <adiabat> right now in the getrawtransaction and getblock rpc calls 16 2016-07-02T01:58:41 <adiabat> there's size and Vsize for a tx 17 2016-07-02T01:58:53 <adiabat> and strippedsize, size, and cost for a block 18 2016-07-02T01:59:07 <adiabat> as far as I can tell, cost is just Vsize * 4 19 2016-07-02T01:59:28 <gmaxwell> nope, you're not looking at segwit transactions. 20 2016-07-02T01:59:59 <adiabat> ok wait, what's the relationship of cost and Vsize 21 2016-07-02T02:00:43 <adiabat> I thought Vsize was normalized to 1M; (Wsize + 3*strippedsize) / 4 22 2016-07-02T02:03:52 <gmaxwell> It's (cost + 3) / 4; technically. Cost is size + 3*strippedsize. 23 2016-07-02T02:04:31 <adiabat> ok but so, Vsize is cost /4, round up. 24 2016-07-02T02:04:49 <gmaxwell> yes. 25 2016-07-02T02:05:03 <adiabat> could you say a tx has a cost? 26 2016-07-02T02:05:15 <adiabat> seems like you could... 27 2016-07-02T02:05:38 <gmaxwell> Yes I just did? 28 2016-07-02T02:05:56 <adiabat> right, so I'm just suggesting, for rpc calls, return the cost of the tx 29 2016-07-02T02:05:57 <gmaxwell> (there is a problem with using the word cost, annoyingly, it seems like it gets confused with fee) 30 2016-07-02T02:06:02 <adiabat> yeahhhh I know 31 2016-07-02T02:06:05 <gmaxwell> when it's just an abstract unit. 32 2016-07-02T02:06:19 <adiabat> It's just that right now it's a bit confusing because blocks have cost and txs have Vsize 33 2016-07-02T02:06:23 *** bsm1175321 has quit IRC 34 2016-07-02T02:06:49 <adiabat> seems like you could say that txs also have cost with no real loss of information 35 2016-07-02T02:07:19 <gmaxwell> they do, the vsize is strictly a lossy unit. 36 2016-07-02T02:07:34 *** justanotheruser has quit IRC 37 2016-07-02T02:08:03 *** justanotheruser has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 38 2016-07-02T02:08:06 <gmaxwell> I agree they should be consistent. And really, they should be the cost unit.. 39 2016-07-02T02:08:13 <gmaxwell> I wish we had a better word than cost. 40 2016-07-02T02:08:16 <adiabat> OK cool that's what I'm saying 41 2016-07-02T02:08:24 <adiabat> with txs now, you see: 42 2016-07-02T02:08:27 <adiabat> "size": 38919, 43 2016-07-02T02:08:27 <adiabat> "Vsize": 26433, 44 2016-07-02T02:09:05 <adiabat> but you could return "size": 38919, "cost": 105732 45 2016-07-02T02:09:28 <adiabat> that way it's more consistent and one less name to keep track of for users 46 2016-07-02T02:11:41 *** davec_ has quit IRC 47 2016-07-02T02:18:45 *** cryptapus_afk is now known as cryptapus 48 2016-07-02T02:20:37 *** davec_ has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 49 2016-07-02T02:44:42 *** PaulCape_ has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 50 2016-07-02T02:48:27 *** PaulCapestany has quit IRC 51 2016-07-02T02:49:52 <CubicEarth> gmaxwell: Thinking about your 'carving a block of marble' analogy for forks, and thinking about the nature of Bitcoin, I tend to think that anything can be accomplished with a 'soft-fork', such as effectively raising the coin limit, etc. I see it like a nested-universe scenario, but in the marble analogy... take the statue of David. Say we find ourselves disappointed that Michelangelo didn't give David 52 2016-07-02T02:49:52 <CubicEarth> two heads. We could basically carve a miniature replica of David out of the right butt-cheek of the full size version, with the 'replica' having two heads. In real life there would be problems with absolute scale, but I don't see a parallel in code. 53 2016-07-02T02:50:34 <CubicEarth> Perhaps I am taking the analogy too far. 54 2016-07-02T02:51:09 <gmaxwell> You can try, but it's not invisible or non-consentual. 55 2016-07-02T02:51:22 <gmaxwell> Imagine that you try to make more coins.. well no existing wallet will reconize or accept those coins. 56 2016-07-02T02:51:44 <gmaxwell> you pay me some 0 value output that the softfork reconizes as the extra coins. fine.. but my wallet will see it as zero. 57 2016-07-02T02:52:08 <CubicEarth> That is true 58 2016-07-02T02:52:14 <CubicEarth> Thankfully 59 2016-07-02T02:52:47 <gmaxwell> so the most you could do is try to also DOS attack me to force me into going along with that change and accepting those coins, but that reduces to a power miners always have (DOS attacking users) which has a tidy solution: change the POW to fire the service provider (miners) that are screwing over the users and not faithfully including ordinary transactions. 60 2016-07-02T02:55:47 *** Ylbam has quit IRC 61 2016-07-02T03:03:59 *** TheFactory7 has quit IRC 62 2016-07-02T03:04:38 *** cryptapus has quit IRC 63 2016-07-02T03:10:42 *** cryptapus has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 64 2016-07-02T03:10:42 *** cryptapus has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 65 2016-07-02T04:40:38 *** adiabat has quit IRC 66 2016-07-02T04:44:56 *** kvnn has quit IRC 67 2016-07-02T04:45:06 *** Alopex has quit IRC 68 2016-07-02T04:46:11 *** Alopex has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 69 2016-07-02T04:47:17 *** netsin has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 70 2016-07-02T04:47:54 *** jiggalator has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 71 2016-07-02T04:48:12 *** jiggalator is now known as netsin 72 2016-07-02T04:51:54 *** Giszmo has quit IRC 73 2016-07-02T04:53:03 *** netsin has quit IRC 74 2016-07-02T05:03:29 *** CyrusV` has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 75 2016-07-02T05:04:49 *** tadasv has quit IRC 76 2016-07-02T05:04:49 *** CyrusV has quit IRC 77 2016-07-02T05:04:49 *** CubicEarth has quit IRC 78 2016-07-02T05:04:49 *** jonasschnelli has quit IRC 79 2016-07-02T05:04:49 *** whphhg has quit IRC 80 2016-07-02T05:04:50 *** michagogo has quit IRC 81 2016-07-02T05:05:10 *** jonasschnelli_ has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 82 2016-07-02T05:23:13 *** whphhg has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 83 2016-07-02T05:23:27 *** CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 84 2016-07-02T05:30:28 *** cryptapus is now known as cryptapus_afk 85 2016-07-02T05:31:49 *** netsin has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 86 2016-07-02T05:35:43 *** CubicEar_ has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 87 2016-07-02T05:39:21 *** CubicEar_ has quit IRC 88 2016-07-02T05:39:28 *** CubicEarth has quit IRC 89 2016-07-02T05:39:36 *** CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 90 2016-07-02T05:48:58 *** pedrobranco has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 91 2016-07-02T05:53:06 *** pedrobranco has quit IRC 92 2016-07-02T05:55:10 *** netsin has quit IRC 93 2016-07-02T06:03:02 *** Alopex has quit IRC 94 2016-07-02T06:04:07 *** Alopex has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 95 2016-07-02T06:24:11 *** Alopex has quit IRC 96 2016-07-02T06:25:16 *** Alopex has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 97 2016-07-02T06:33:55 *** netsin has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 98 2016-07-02T06:34:14 *** netsin has quit IRC 99 2016-07-02T06:41:07 *** baldur has quit IRC 100 2016-07-02T07:04:02 *** Alopex has quit IRC 101 2016-07-02T07:05:07 *** Alopex has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 102 2016-07-02T07:20:16 *** Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 103 2016-07-02T08:15:03 *** CyrusV` is now known as CyrusV5 104 2016-07-02T08:15:05 *** CyrusV5 is now known as CyrusV 105 2016-07-02T08:26:18 *** baldur has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 106 2016-07-02T08:30:57 *** Guyver2 has quit IRC 107 2016-07-02T08:35:18 *** paveljanik has quit IRC 108 2016-07-02T08:49:09 *** paveljanik has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 109 2016-07-02T08:49:09 *** paveljanik has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 110 2016-07-02T08:59:36 *** murch has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 111 2016-07-02T09:02:34 *** spudowiar has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 112 2016-07-02T09:08:21 *** LeMiner2 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 113 2016-07-02T09:10:49 *** LeMiner has quit IRC 114 2016-07-02T09:10:49 *** LeMiner2 is now known as LeMiner 115 2016-07-02T09:24:49 *** murch1 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 116 2016-07-02T09:25:57 *** murch has quit IRC 117 2016-07-02T09:32:49 *** spudowiar has quit IRC 118 2016-07-02T09:34:52 *** Chubbyurf88 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 119 2016-07-02T09:38:45 *** murch has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 120 2016-07-02T09:39:54 *** murch1 has quit IRC 121 2016-07-02T09:50:33 *** murch has quit IRC 122 2016-07-02T09:52:40 *** tadasv has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 123 2016-07-02T09:53:11 *** murch has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 124 2016-07-02T10:25:09 *** beany has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 125 2016-07-02T10:44:10 *** laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 126 2016-07-02T10:47:38 *** beany has quit IRC 127 2016-07-02T10:52:54 *** laurentmt has quit IRC 128 2016-07-02T12:00:13 *** murch1 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 129 2016-07-02T12:01:12 *** dgenr8 has quit IRC 130 2016-07-02T12:01:24 *** murch has quit IRC 131 2016-07-02T12:06:33 *** murch has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 132 2016-07-02T12:06:37 *** murch1 has quit IRC 133 2016-07-02T12:18:48 *** harrymm has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 134 2016-07-02T12:21:37 *** JackH has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 135 2016-07-02T12:28:47 *** Chris_Stewart_5 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 136 2016-07-02T12:49:03 *** Chris_Stewart_5 has quit IRC 137 2016-07-02T13:34:45 *** laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 138 2016-07-02T13:56:53 *** dgenr8 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 139 2016-07-02T14:03:19 *** laurentmt has quit IRC 140 2016-07-02T14:07:06 *** musalbas has quit IRC 141 2016-07-02T14:12:51 *** musalbas has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 142 2016-07-02T14:26:36 *** TheFactory7 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 143 2016-07-02T14:29:28 *** murch1 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 144 2016-07-02T14:29:48 *** murch has quit IRC 145 2016-07-02T14:30:29 *** dgenr8 has quit IRC 146 2016-07-02T14:31:32 *** dgenr8 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 147 2016-07-02T14:39:11 *** murch has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 148 2016-07-02T14:40:17 *** murch1 has quit IRC 149 2016-07-02T14:56:27 *** Inaltoas1nistra has quit IRC 150 2016-07-02T15:44:32 *** murch has quit IRC 151 2016-07-02T15:59:50 <dgenr8> <gmaxwell> These folks are extremely and dangerously incompetent. 152 2016-07-02T15:59:58 <dgenr8> Don't be so hard on yourself. The last core checkpoint was 4 months old when added to a release candidate. 153 2016-07-02T16:00:06 <dgenr8> That's the same as XT when 4 script checking threads are enabled 154 2016-07-02T16:00:12 <dgenr8> Your 1-day figure is off by a factor of 30 155 2016-07-02T16:08:20 <dgenr8> ... 156 2016-07-02T16:08:21 <dgenr8> The partition risk to XT is a result of your sneak attack on its usage of bip37 for the original thin blocks mechanism. Thanks for that. 157 2016-07-02T16:24:32 *** Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 158 2016-07-02T16:27:51 <luke-jr> sure, blame us for your bugs.. 159 2016-07-02T16:28:33 <luke-jr> you could have easily taken petertodd's patch to prefer RBF connections and used it for thin blocks instead 160 2016-07-02T16:32:21 *** spudowiar has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 161 2016-07-02T16:46:16 *** AaronvanW has quit IRC 162 2016-07-02T16:52:04 *** AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 163 2016-07-02T17:06:28 *** molz has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 164 2016-07-02T17:06:50 *** laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 165 2016-07-02T17:06:59 *** laurentmt has quit IRC 166 2016-07-02T17:09:04 *** moli has quit IRC 167 2016-07-02T18:06:51 *** harrymm has quit IRC 168 2016-07-02T18:20:27 *** harrymm has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 169 2016-07-02T18:20:48 *** spudowiar is now known as jcase 170 2016-07-02T18:20:55 *** jcase has quit IRC 171 2016-07-02T18:21:50 *** jcase has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 172 2016-07-02T18:22:18 *** jcase is now known as spudowiar 173 2016-07-02T18:22:43 *** jannes has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 174 2016-07-02T18:23:21 *** netsin has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 175 2016-07-02T18:28:05 *** netsin has quit IRC 176 2016-07-02T18:34:53 *** netsin has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 177 2016-07-02T18:35:12 *** mkarrer has quit IRC 178 2016-07-02T18:36:45 *** mkarrer has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 179 2016-07-02T18:38:59 *** netsin has quit IRC 180 2016-07-02T18:48:15 *** netsin has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 181 2016-07-02T18:49:49 *** netsin has quit IRC 182 2016-07-02T18:51:00 *** netsin has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 183 2016-07-02T18:52:06 *** netsin has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 184 2016-07-02T18:53:16 *** netsin has quit IRC 185 2016-07-02T18:59:18 *** Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 186 2016-07-02T19:01:21 *** netsin has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 187 2016-07-02T19:42:16 *** spudowiar has quit IRC 188 2016-07-02T19:42:36 *** spudowiar has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 189 2016-07-02T20:03:28 *** CubicEarth has quit IRC 190 2016-07-02T20:11:47 *** spudowiar has quit IRC 191 2016-07-02T20:12:53 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: Tom, your claim that I maliciously undermined XT is libelous and unsupported by the facts. I already responded to that claim in depth https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/43iup7/mike_hearn_implemented_a_test_version_of_thin/czipysi 192 2016-07-02T20:13:04 *** CubicEarth has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 193 2016-07-02T20:16:14 *** Giszmo has quit IRC 194 2016-07-02T20:26:56 *** moli has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 195 2016-07-02T20:28:50 *** molz has quit IRC 196 2016-07-02T20:56:06 *** Ylbam has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 197 2016-07-02T20:59:34 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: Checkpoints, dumb as they are, reference a particular block, they're not subject to miners claiming old times on blocks. The code in classic, at least, triggered at one day, and I've already tested making it accept invalid blocks on a chain without reorg. If you backed it off to make it more sensible then good for you, but triggering on header timestamps is still incompetent. 198 2016-07-02T21:47:21 <dgenr8> If you choose not to explain your test, we'll have to assume you gave yourself 100% hash power and control of the local clock 199 2016-07-02T21:52:43 *** spudowiar has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 200 2016-07-02T22:04:09 <gmaxwell> dgenr8: I immediately pointed out the attack when classic proposed this fool scheme. Miners can widen the permitted time back arbritarily far, and then a single block can be created that breaks the rules without any reorg at all. No clock control is required. 201 2016-07-02T22:04:44 <gmaxwell> The fact that you also didn't immediately sees this shows that you are probably not qualified to be maintaining an implementation that makes security critical changes such as this. 202 2016-07-02T22:05:14 <gmaxwell> The fact that it's possible for miners to widen the accepted time window has been well known since at least 2011. 203 2016-07-02T22:07:25 <gmaxwell> (google "timewarp attack" for a description on widening the accepted timestamp window) 204 2016-07-02T22:08:28 <gmaxwell> Though even if that attack didn't exist, and it did require all the blocks to agree, it still wouldn't require changes to the local clock... and it _still_ would be a change to the security model that deserved the loudest possible disclosure. 205 2016-07-02T22:18:53 *** spudowiar has quit IRC 206 2016-07-02T22:24:13 *** Guyver2 has quit IRC 207 2016-07-02T22:31:44 *** moli has quit IRC 208 2016-07-02T22:31:46 *** molz has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 209 2016-07-02T22:37:29 *** spudowiar has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 210 2016-07-02T22:44:38 <kanzure> and even if local time change was required, aren't lots of time protocols busted anyway? 211 2016-07-02T22:44:54 *** spudowiar has quit IRC 212 2016-07-02T22:48:32 *** laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 213 2016-07-02T22:48:50 *** laurentmt has quit IRC 214 2016-07-02T22:49:38 <gmaxwell> yes, including the one built into bitcoin's p2p protocol, though thats several layers of irrelevance down the line. (also an attacker who can influence that one is already too powerful) 215 2016-07-02T23:27:11 <kanzure> yeah but who needs clock time when you have block time (/cringe) 216 2016-07-02T23:27:49 <dgenr8> So yeah, well over 51% hash power required 217 2016-07-02T23:32:18 <gmaxwell> so now you've gone from 100% and local clock control to over 51%. Actually that isn't quite correct still. 218 2016-07-02T23:33:32 <gmaxwell> A majority hashpower is needed to open the time window, but once it does, anyone can produce an invalid block. Moreover, when synchronizing, a partitioned node will accept a backdated invalid chain -- even if the attacker had far less than a majority hashpower. 219 2016-07-02T23:39:51 <dgenr8> XT, like Core, is vulnerable to 51% of hash power doing all sorts of nasty things. And a partitioned Core node is vulnerable to an invalid backdated chain prior to the checkpoints. 220 2016-07-02T23:47:44 <gmaxwell> No, the scriptsig skipping is pinned to a particular well known chain hardcoded in the software. This chain is not invalid. 221 2016-07-02T23:49:01 <gmaxwell> The primary, nearly exclusive, argument provided to why someone won't overpower the network (e.g. briefly) is becaues there isn't much that they can do with it. They can't just blank-check write themselve an extra 100,000 Bitcoin. They can DOS attack and double spend their own payments. 222 2016-07-02T23:49:04 *** foo1 has quit IRC 223 2016-07-02T23:50:21 *** foo1 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 224 2016-07-02T23:50:34 <gmaxwell> You and your community (while you withhold contradiction) have regularly and agressivly attacked very narrow soft-forks because they cause some non-upgraded warning-spewing nodes to not check a few new rules introduced, and then nearly silently and without fanfair you roll out a feature that makes every node running your software check no signatures at all on any block when the miner provided ti 225 2016-07-02T23:50:40 <gmaxwell> mestamp is old. 226 2016-07-02T23:51:31 <gmaxwell> and you have done so without even actually understanding the effect, as demonstrated by your above "100% hashpower and control of the local clock" 227 2016-07-02T23:51:52 <kanzure> iirc they are fine with malicious miners and rule invalidity 228 2016-07-02T23:52:00 <kanzure> e.g. "it's up to the miners" 229 2016-07-02T23:52:14 <gmaxwell> kanzure: not so, or they would have nothing to complain about softforks at all. 230 2016-07-02T23:52:16 <kanzure> i don't mean to strawman anyone but it would explain the observation 231 2016-07-02T23:52:22 <kanzure> ah hmm 232 2016-07-02T23:52:46 <gmaxwell> don't mistake pure politics for technical understanding or logic. 233 2016-07-02T23:54:30 <kanzure> maybe it's more of a "just query the miners" sentiment. dunno. but rapidly off-topic from my end for this channel.