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 13 2016-07-02T01:58:11  <adiabat> Hey I have a humble suggestion
 14 2016-07-02T01:58:15  <adiabat> doesn't really change functionality
 15 2016-07-02T01:58:30  <adiabat> right now in the getrawtransaction and getblock rpc calls
 16 2016-07-02T01:58:41  <adiabat> there's size and Vsize for a tx
 17 2016-07-02T01:58:53  <adiabat> and strippedsize, size, and cost for a block
 18 2016-07-02T01:59:07  <adiabat> as far as I can tell, cost is just Vsize * 4
 19 2016-07-02T01:59:28  <gmaxwell> nope, you're not looking at segwit transactions.
 20 2016-07-02T01:59:59  <adiabat> ok wait, what's the relationship of cost and Vsize
 21 2016-07-02T02:00:43  <adiabat> I thought Vsize was normalized to 1M;  (Wsize + 3*strippedsize) / 4
 22 2016-07-02T02:03:52  <gmaxwell> It's (cost + 3) / 4; technically.  Cost is size + 3*strippedsize.
 23 2016-07-02T02:04:31  <adiabat> ok but so, Vsize is cost /4, round up.
 24 2016-07-02T02:04:49  <gmaxwell> yes.
 25 2016-07-02T02:05:03  <adiabat> could you say a tx has a cost?
 26 2016-07-02T02:05:15  <adiabat> seems like you could...
 27 2016-07-02T02:05:38  <gmaxwell> Yes I just did?
 28 2016-07-02T02:05:56  <adiabat> right, so I'm just suggesting, for rpc calls, return the cost of the tx
 29 2016-07-02T02:05:57  <gmaxwell> (there is a problem with using the word cost, annoyingly, it seems like it gets confused with fee)
 30 2016-07-02T02:06:02  <adiabat> yeahhhh I know
 31 2016-07-02T02:06:05  <gmaxwell> when it's just an abstract unit.
 32 2016-07-02T02:06:19  <adiabat> It's just that right now it's a bit confusing because blocks have cost and txs have Vsize
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 34 2016-07-02T02:06:49  <adiabat> seems like you could say that txs also have cost with no real loss of information
 35 2016-07-02T02:07:19  <gmaxwell> they do, the vsize is strictly a lossy unit.
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 38 2016-07-02T02:08:06  <gmaxwell> I agree they should be consistent. And really, they should be the cost unit..
 39 2016-07-02T02:08:13  <gmaxwell> I wish we had a better word than cost.
 40 2016-07-02T02:08:16  <adiabat> OK cool that's what I'm saying
 41 2016-07-02T02:08:24  <adiabat> with txs now, you see:
 42 2016-07-02T02:08:27  <adiabat>   "size": 38919,
 43 2016-07-02T02:08:27  <adiabat>   "Vsize": 26433,
 44 2016-07-02T02:09:05  <adiabat> but you could return "size": 38919, "cost": 105732
 45 2016-07-02T02:09:28  <adiabat> that way it's more consistent and one less name to keep track of for users
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 51 2016-07-02T02:49:52  <CubicEarth> gmaxwell:  Thinking about your 'carving a block of marble' analogy for forks, and thinking about the nature of Bitcoin, I tend to think that anything can be accomplished with a 'soft-fork', such as effectively raising the coin limit, etc.  I see it like a nested-universe scenario, but in the marble analogy... take the statue of David.  Say we find ourselves disappointed that Michelangelo didn't give David
 52 2016-07-02T02:49:52  <CubicEarth> two heads.  We could basically carve a miniature replica of David out of the right butt-cheek of the full size version, with the 'replica' having two heads.  In real life there would be problems with absolute scale, but I don't see a parallel in code.
 53 2016-07-02T02:50:34  <CubicEarth> Perhaps I am taking the analogy too far.
 54 2016-07-02T02:51:09  <gmaxwell> You can try, but it's not invisible or non-consentual.
 55 2016-07-02T02:51:22  <gmaxwell> Imagine that you try to make more coins.. well no existing wallet will reconize or accept those coins.
 56 2016-07-02T02:51:44  <gmaxwell> you pay me some 0 value output that the softfork reconizes as the extra coins. fine.. but my wallet will see it as zero.
 57 2016-07-02T02:52:08  <CubicEarth> That is true
 58 2016-07-02T02:52:14  <CubicEarth> Thankfully
 59 2016-07-02T02:52:47  <gmaxwell> so the most you could do is try to also DOS attack me to force me into going along with that change and accepting those coins, but that reduces to a power miners always have (DOS attacking users) which has a tidy solution: change the POW to fire the service provider (miners) that are screwing over the users and not faithfully including ordinary transactions.
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151 2016-07-02T15:59:50  <dgenr8> <gmaxwell> These folks are extremely and dangerously incompetent.
152 2016-07-02T15:59:58  <dgenr8> Don't be so hard on yourself.  The last core checkpoint was 4 months old when added to a release candidate.
153 2016-07-02T16:00:06  <dgenr8> That's the same as XT when 4 script checking threads are enabled
154 2016-07-02T16:00:12  <dgenr8> Your 1-day figure is off by a factor of 30
155 2016-07-02T16:08:20  <dgenr8> ...
156 2016-07-02T16:08:21  <dgenr8> The partition risk to XT is a result of your sneak attack on its usage of bip37 for the original thin blocks mechanism. Thanks for that.
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158 2016-07-02T16:27:51  <luke-jr> sure, blame us for your bugs..
159 2016-07-02T16:28:33  <luke-jr> you could have easily taken petertodd's patch to prefer RBF connections and used it for thin blocks instead
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191 2016-07-02T20:12:53  <gmaxwell> dgenr8: Tom, your claim that I maliciously undermined XT is libelous and unsupported by the facts. I already responded to that claim in depth https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/43iup7/mike_hearn_implemented_a_test_version_of_thin/czipysi
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197 2016-07-02T20:59:34  <gmaxwell> dgenr8: Checkpoints, dumb as they are, reference a particular block, they're not subject to miners claiming old times on blocks. The code in classic, at least, triggered at one day, and I've already tested making it accept invalid blocks on a chain without reorg. If you backed it off to make it more sensible then good for you, but triggering on header timestamps is still incompetent.
198 2016-07-02T21:47:21  <dgenr8> If you choose not to explain your test, we'll have to assume you gave yourself 100% hash power and control of the local clock
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200 2016-07-02T22:04:09  <gmaxwell> dgenr8: I immediately pointed out the attack when classic proposed this fool scheme. Miners can widen the permitted time back arbritarily far, and then a single block can be created that breaks the rules without any reorg at all. No clock control is required.
201 2016-07-02T22:04:44  <gmaxwell> The fact that you also didn't immediately sees this shows that you are probably not qualified to be maintaining an implementation that makes security critical changes such as this.
202 2016-07-02T22:05:14  <gmaxwell> The fact that it's possible for miners to widen the accepted time window has been well known since at least 2011.
203 2016-07-02T22:07:25  <gmaxwell> (google "timewarp attack" for a description on widening the accepted timestamp window)
204 2016-07-02T22:08:28  <gmaxwell> Though even if that attack didn't exist, and it did require all the blocks to agree, it still wouldn't require changes to the local clock... and it _still_ would be a change to the security model that deserved the loudest possible disclosure.
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210 2016-07-02T22:44:38  <kanzure> and even if local time change was required, aren't lots of time protocols busted anyway?
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214 2016-07-02T22:49:38  <gmaxwell> yes, including the one built into bitcoin's p2p protocol, though thats several layers of irrelevance down the line. (also an attacker who can influence that one is already too powerful)
215 2016-07-02T23:27:11  <kanzure> yeah but who needs clock time when you have block time (/cringe)
216 2016-07-02T23:27:49  <dgenr8> So yeah, well over 51% hash power required
217 2016-07-02T23:32:18  <gmaxwell> so now you've gone from 100% and local clock control to over 51%.  Actually that isn't quite correct still.
218 2016-07-02T23:33:32  <gmaxwell> A majority hashpower is needed to open the time window, but once it does, anyone can produce an invalid block.   Moreover, when synchronizing, a partitioned node will accept a backdated invalid chain -- even if the attacker had far less than a majority hashpower.
219 2016-07-02T23:39:51  <dgenr8> XT, like Core, is vulnerable to 51% of hash power doing all sorts of nasty things.  And a partitioned Core node is vulnerable to an invalid backdated chain prior to the checkpoints.
220 2016-07-02T23:47:44  <gmaxwell> No, the scriptsig skipping is pinned to a particular well known chain hardcoded in the software. This chain is not invalid.
221 2016-07-02T23:49:01  <gmaxwell> The primary, nearly exclusive, argument provided to why someone won't overpower the network (e.g. briefly) is becaues there isn't much that they can do with it. They can't just blank-check write themselve an extra 100,000 Bitcoin.  They can DOS attack and double spend their own payments.
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224 2016-07-02T23:50:34  <gmaxwell> You and your community (while you withhold contradiction) have regularly and agressivly attacked very narrow soft-forks because they cause some non-upgraded warning-spewing nodes to not check a few new rules introduced, and then nearly silently and without fanfair you roll out a feature that makes every node running your software check no signatures at all on any block when the miner provided ti
225 2016-07-02T23:50:40  <gmaxwell> mestamp is old.
226 2016-07-02T23:51:31  <gmaxwell> and you have done so without even actually understanding the effect, as demonstrated by your above "100% hashpower and control of the local clock"
227 2016-07-02T23:51:52  <kanzure> iirc they are fine with malicious miners and rule invalidity
228 2016-07-02T23:52:00  <kanzure> e.g. "it's up to the miners"
229 2016-07-02T23:52:14  <gmaxwell> kanzure: not so, or they would have nothing to complain about softforks at all.
230 2016-07-02T23:52:16  <kanzure> i don't mean to strawman anyone but it would explain the observation
231 2016-07-02T23:52:22  <kanzure> ah hmm
232 2016-07-02T23:52:46  <gmaxwell> don't mistake pure politics for technical understanding or logic.
233 2016-07-02T23:54:30  <kanzure> maybe it's more of a "just query the miners" sentiment. dunno. but rapidly off-topic from my end for this channel.