1 2016-09-30T00:04:35  <wumpus> it's also not completely unprecedented, for example Transmission torrent client has a turtle icon, which can be clicked to slow down, indeed meant when using the computer for other things
  2 2016-09-30T00:06:15  <sipa> LOL https://git-man-page-generator.lokaltog.net/
  3 2016-09-30T00:06:19  <sipa> </offtopic>
  4 2016-09-30T00:06:29  <gmaxwell> well a 10ms sleep per 20 transactions would pretty much take care of it, I expect.
  5 2016-09-30T00:07:13  <wumpus> although as an idea for bitcoin it's new, I think. THere has been a patch to add a button to disable networking completely but that kind of misses the point. That means a full catch-up has to be done when re-enabling
  6 2016-09-30T00:07:47  <wumpus> sipa: hahaha
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  9 2016-09-30T00:08:13  <gmaxwell> thats old. :P
 10 2016-09-30T00:08:27  <wumpus> I hadn't seen it yet
 11 2016-09-30T00:08:37  <gmaxwell> damn repost supporters. :P
 12 2016-09-30T00:09:37  <gmaxwell> okay, I'll permit it, since where I saw it was in a private msg from my SO,
 13 2016-09-30T00:09:40  <gmaxwell> mindspillage.log:00:33 <mindspillage> hahah: http://git-man-page-generator.lokaltog.net/
 14 2016-09-30T00:10:52  <sipa> i heartily endorse reposts. of things i hadn't seen.
 15 2016-09-30T00:10:57  <gmaxwell> wumpus: I suspect that in the long run to really address the resource usage we'll need something like bittorrent's utp to transfer blocks during catchup and ibd.
 16 2016-09-30T00:11:50  <sipa> we'll need rainbow tables.
 17 2016-09-30T00:13:26  <gmaxwell> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LEDBAT
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127 2016-09-30T07:49:51  <gmaxwell> Interesting factoid: MUSL libc's malloc uses floating point internally.
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130 2016-09-30T07:51:32  <midnightmagic> that'd odd. what for?
131 2016-09-30T07:52:03  <gmaxwell> to enable darkness and hate in the world?
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133 2016-09-30T07:53:09  <gmaxwell> some internal algorithim, presumably on hardware with fast FPUs (e.g. nothing you're that likely to use MUSL on) I presume that it's faster than a fixed point version of the same algorithim. Also hate.
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135 2016-09-30T07:53:46  <midnightmagic> :-D
136 2016-09-30T07:54:40  <gmaxwell> I found this out from friends chasing a bug report in libtheora... which uses mmx.. and mmx and fpu share registers... and you have to toggle between them, and the library very carefully fixes up the flag between entry and exit. ... but it didn't know that it had to do so across _libc_ calls, particularly malloc.
137 2016-09-30T07:55:04  <midnightmagic> does smartheap still exist? I wonder if they do something similar.
138 2016-09-30T07:57:12  <midnightmagic> so.. threaded theora programs stomp on it?
139 2016-09-30T07:57:33  <gmaxwell> threaded is fine, OS saves the state betwen context switches.
140 2016-09-30T07:58:07  <luke-jr> wat return ((union { float v; uint32_t r; }){(int)x}.r>>21) - 496;
141 2016-09-30T07:58:11  <midnightmagic> now I'm curious. Can you link a URL I can read?
142 2016-09-30T07:58:11  <gmaxwell> app calls libtheora, lib theora flips on mmx uses some MMX calls malloc does some more MMX flips off MMX   OMG THE WORLD ENDS.
143 2016-09-30T07:58:28  <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I just had to write http://codepad.org/XT8ifBBp to avoid losing my browser session when I switched to 64-bit.. :|
144 2016-09-30T07:58:29  <gmaxwell> luke-jr: that looks like code for a a fast log.
145 2016-09-30T07:58:37  <luke-jr> does not inspire confidence in browser developers
146 2016-09-30T07:59:09  <gmaxwell> luke-jr: assuming a particular floating point representation (implementation defined behavior hurrah).
147 2016-09-30T07:59:20  <luke-jr> gmaxwell: a fast log? it's adjusting alignment
148 2016-09-30T07:59:24  <luke-jr> oh, the MUSL code
149 2016-09-30T07:59:28  <gmaxwell> the MUSL code.
150 2016-09-30T07:59:48  <gmaxwell> it's extracting the exponent and pulling off the bias.
151 2016-09-30T08:00:31  <midnightmagic> ohh..  you mean libtheora is failing to do mmx fixup properly, not musl libc?
152 2016-09-30T08:01:35  * luke-jr makes a long list of KDE 5 bugs
153 2016-09-30T08:03:29  <gmaxwell> midnightmagic: it's fixing up before entry and exit, that libc is using the fpu is a surprise, -- and in C++ you'd be pretty screwed since it's easy for objects to malloc behaind your back in virtually any line of code.
154 2016-09-30T08:05:01  <gmaxwell> theora's bug ultimately, but libc non libm using floating point is a surpise.
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158 2016-09-30T08:09:37  <wumpus> a heap implementation using floating point is a surprise to me too. I think the advice should be extended from not using floating point for monetary values, to not using it for any kind of precise resource tracking...
159 2016-09-30T08:10:36  <midnightmagic> gmaxwell: I love interesting bugs like that.
160 2016-09-30T08:10:39  <wumpus> "You have 3.14159... bytes free!"
161 2016-09-30T08:10:39  <gmaxwell> (though I still have no idea how you could possibly write MMX using code in C++ if you can't call malloc without restoring the fpu flags first.)
162 2016-09-30T08:13:15  <wumpus> I don't think MMX is much-used these days, main reason because there are newer SIMD instruction sets but another reason is its weird re-purposing of registers, it not only makes it hard for developers to use it but let alone compilers... 3DNOW had a similar problem IIRC
163 2016-09-30T08:14:56  <wumpus> at its height it was used for a few well-contained matrix multiplication functions in games, too much risk of interfering with the rest of the code otherwise. Newer sets such as SSE have their own registers so doesn't have that problem.
164 2016-09-30T08:15:00  <luke-jr> I think I read in GCC's manual sometime that it doesn't use older stuff when AVX is available
165 2016-09-30T08:16:03  <gmaxwell> Yes, SSE2 mostly mooted MMX. ... though mmx vs fpu aren't the only fpu flags that could cause you problems with malloc using the fpu.. in particular the flags to control rounding modes might have unexpected effects. :P
166 2016-09-30T08:16:28  <wumpus> yes, I'm by no means defending the use of floating point in resource allocation... :P
167 2016-09-30T08:16:49  <wumpus> especially in cross-platform code. Ouch.
168 2016-09-30T08:17:27  <wumpus> it's seems like of those bit flipping tricks that's very clever but a bad idea to use in production code
169 2016-09-30T08:18:14  <wumpus> maybe it's a few % faster on some CPUs but the pain for maintainers... :)
170 2016-09-30T08:19:37  * wumpus wonders if gcc or clang has a flag to warn on floating point usage
171 2016-09-30T08:20:30  <gmaxwell> can't say I haven't done it myself; https://git.xiph.org/?p=opus.git;a=blob;f=celt/mathops.h;h=1f8a20cb4540255ffc4ea0a5f6716a31798c6a6f;hb=HEAD#l130  but it's behind a flag, and behind a bunch of warnings about non-portability, on some devices its more than a couple percent speedups. :)
172 2016-09-30T08:21:02  <gmaxwell> (and operating on floating point signals, not a random piece of floating point code in a sea of integer code)
173 2016-09-30T08:22:33  <wumpus> well that acts on float, as long as you can assume IEEE floating point formats I see nothing wrong with that
174 2016-09-30T08:23:53  <wumpus> and indeed it's operating on floating point signals, not integer numbers where off-by-one errors can cause a crash like memory allocation :)
175 2016-09-30T08:27:47  <wumpus> I think non-IEEE floating point formats (well there can be some contention around NaN and Inf and such, but I mean the global layout) are rarer than not-1-byte-chars these days
176 2016-09-30T08:28:02  <luke-jr> wumpus: what if your platform has IEEE floats that conflict with the integer endian? :D
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178 2016-09-30T08:28:04  <wumpus> luke-jr: hmm that's a valid point
179 2016-09-30T08:28:18  <luke-jr> wumpus: NEON's non-IEEE stuff differs only in behaviour, not format, I guess?
180 2016-09-30T08:28:49  <wumpus> yes, "non-IEEE" in modern usage refers to "sloppy" math behavior to impmlement some operations faster, not the format
181 2016-09-30T08:31:43  <wumpus> or even if lacking some minor things that hardly anyone uses anyhow like signaling NaNs
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184 2016-09-30T08:33:02  <wumpus> but which are great fun in network protocols, especially because no one expect themn and they cause a trap
185 2016-09-30T08:34:51  <wumpus> also the DoS-by-small-numbers of x86 denormalized floating point math has always surprised me. It's easy to think of floating point horror stories.
186 2016-09-30T08:37:34  <luke-jr> btw, I think my Chromium problems were possibly caused by Wikipedia :p
187 2016-09-30T08:37:52  <luke-jr> it erroneously documented that 32-bit aligned 64-bit integers to 8 bytes same as 64-bit does
188 2016-09-30T08:38:10  <luke-jr> when in reality GCC aligns them to 4 bytes
189 2016-09-30T08:38:46  * luke-jr wonders if this is actually GCC's bug, since SSSE3 also crashed quite a bit
190 2016-09-30T08:38:58  <wumpus> in structures? the normal gcc behavior is to algign to the type's size, on any arch
191 2016-09-30T08:39:11  <wumpus> though you can override it with a compiler flag
192 2016-09-30T08:40:16  <luke-jr> yes, in structures
193 2016-09-30T08:40:40  <luke-jr> x86-32 GCC aligns 64-bit integer types to only 4 bytes
194 2016-09-30T08:40:52  <luke-jr> even with the 64-bit compiler using -m32
195 2016-09-30T08:43:14  <wumpus> just tried it out and you're right
196 2016-09-30T08:43:31  <gmaxwell> freaky.
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199 2016-09-30T08:44:04  <wumpus> on x86_32. On ARM32 it's 8 as expected.
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201 2016-09-30T08:44:38  <wumpus> so please correct wikipedia :)
202 2016-09-30T08:45:49  <luke-jr> I did, this time
203 2016-09-30T08:46:49  <wumpus> in principle it makes sense, 32-bit x86 has (originally) no 64-bit memory loads, 64-bit integers are treated as two 32-bit halves
204 2016-09-30T08:47:14  <wumpus> but it would have tricked me too.
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206 2016-09-30T08:49:00  * luke-jr wonders why the lower half of his IPv6 address changed
207 2016-09-30T08:52:01  <wumpus> yesterday I realized not even Amazon EC2 has IPv6 support yet. If there's anywhere you'd expect it to be used it'd be mass virtualized hosting
208 2016-09-30T08:54:00  <luke-jr> O.o
209 2016-09-30T08:54:14  * luke-jr wonders if that's what's holding Travis back
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212 2016-09-30T08:55:04  <wumpus> that could be the case, on the other hand, Travis was even lacking localhost IPv6 support, that is not the fault of the hoster :)
213 2016-09-30T08:57:49  <wumpus> can we please move the serialization for float/double to serialize_unsafe.h?
214 2016-09-30T08:58:36  <wumpus> I was kind of scared until I relaized it's only used for local files (such as the fee estimator), not for network protocols, not for consensus structures
215 2016-09-30T09:01:17  <luke-jr> can we make it so it *can't* be used for non-local stuff?
216 2016-09-30T09:01:45  <luke-jr> probably easier to just make it portable I guess
217 2016-09-30T09:01:47  <wumpus> moving it to a header with a very scary warning will at least be a first step
218 2016-09-30T09:02:05  <luke-jr> I see no reason not to move it unless someone plans to do something bette
219 2016-09-30T09:02:07  <luke-jr> r
220 2016-09-30T09:02:17  <wumpus> making it portable is one thing. Accepting arbitrary float/double bit fields over the internet without potential crashes is not.
221 2016-09-30T09:03:09  <wumpus> well it's easy if you know a platform, but it's platform specific
222 2016-09-30T09:03:26  <wumpus> in any case putting it in a separate header with a big warning would help
223 2016-09-30T09:09:23  <luke-jr> OS: GNU/Linux 4.4.21-gentoo/x86_64 - CPU: 8 x Intel(R) Core™ i7-4771 CPU @ 3.50GHz (3686.621 MHz) - Processes: 353 - Uptime:  09:09:19 up  1:35,  6 users,  load average: 3.05, 2.33, 1.95 - Memory Usage: 15229MB/15950MB (95%)
224 2016-09-30T09:09:29  * luke-jr wonders if he will regret moving back to 64-bit
225 2016-09-30T09:09:47  <luke-jr> <1 day up and I'm already at 95% RAM use
226 2016-09-30T09:10:07  <wumpus> you could skip x86 64-bit and directly move ahead to the future, ARM64 :)
227 2016-09-30T09:10:40  * luke-jr was actually one of the earliest x86-64 adopters, but moved back to 32-bit in 2011 ;)
228 2016-09-30T09:11:42  <paveljanik> luke-jr, buffer, cache...
229 2016-09-30T09:11:47  <luke-jr> paveljanik: already excluding those
230 2016-09-30T09:12:35  <paveljanik> bitcoind with dbcache=16G? ;-)
231 2016-09-30T09:16:51  <wumpus> ok, just moving the serializers for float/double to a separate header file doesn't seem to be possible, it relies on a certain order of definitions
232 2016-09-30T09:16:52  <luke-jr> I haven't even rebuild bitcoin-qt yet
233 2016-09-30T09:17:13  <wumpus> compilng C++ with paralellism 10?
234 2016-09-30T09:17:20  <luke-jr> nothing being compiled :P
235 2016-09-30T09:17:34  <sipa> wumpus: make floating point serialization require nType == SER_DISK?
236 2016-09-30T09:17:58  <wumpus> I wonder if jtimon has any ideas with regard to isolating a consensus-safe part of serialization
237 2016-09-30T09:18:11  <wumpus> sipa: it'd work, I guess...
238 2016-09-30T09:19:24  <wumpus> another option would be to use a special converter to/from binary for those few places that use it with float/double
239 2016-09-30T09:19:55  <wumpus> something like FLATDATA, UNSAFE_SERIALIZE_DOUBLE
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241 2016-09-30T09:20:52  <wumpus> anyhow I wasn't prepared to fight screenfuls of C++ compiler errors
242 2016-09-30T09:21:35  <wumpus> another time
243 2016-09-30T09:37:23  <sipa> haha
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249 2016-09-30T10:34:39  <GitHub114> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/f560d9564f74...83998b52d07b
250 2016-09-30T10:34:39  <GitHub114> bitcoin/master 46a4774 Johnson Lau: Fix nulldummy.py test
251 2016-09-30T10:34:40  <GitHub114> bitcoin/master 83998b5 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #8841: [qa] fix nulldummy test...
252 2016-09-30T10:34:54  <GitHub138> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #8841: [qa] fix nulldummy test (master...nulldummytest) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8841
253 2016-09-30T10:35:02  <GitHub193> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/83998b52d07b...929860106f5a
254 2016-09-30T10:35:02  <GitHub193> bitcoin/master 30930e8 Wladimir J. van der Laan: test: Explicitly set encoding to utf8 when opening text files...
255 2016-09-30T10:35:16  <GitHub193> bitcoin/master 9298601 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #8840: test: Explicitly set encoding to utf8 when opening text files...
256 2016-09-30T10:35:16  <GitHub152> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #8840: test: Explicitly set encoding to utf8 when opening text files (master...2016_09_textfiles_locale) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8840
257 2016-09-30T10:35:42  <GitHub40> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/929860106f5a...0572acd63bc8
258 2016-09-30T10:35:42  <GitHub40> bitcoin/master 1d28faf Wladimir J. van der Laan: test: Avoid ConnectionResetErrors during RPC tests...
259 2016-09-30T10:35:42  <GitHub40> bitcoin/master 0572acd Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #8839: test: Avoid ConnectionResetErrors during RPC tests...
260 2016-09-30T10:35:51  <GitHub182> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #8839: test: Avoid ConnectionResetErrors during RPC tests (master...2016_09_freebsd_rpctest_fix) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8839
261 2016-09-30T10:35:56  <luke-jr> 10 seconds to view IRC tabs. I feel the pain. :x
262 2016-09-30T10:36:03  <sipa> ?
263 2016-09-30T10:36:15  <wumpus> what IRC client?
264 2016-09-30T10:36:27  <GitHub160> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/0572acd63bc8...90adfabd5daa
265 2016-09-30T10:36:27  <GitHub160> bitcoin/master da94697 jnewbery: bitcoin-util-test.py should fail if the output file is empty
266 2016-09-30T10:36:27  <GitHub160> bitcoin/master 90adfab Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #8836: bitcoin-util-test.py should fail if the output file is empty...
267 2016-09-30T10:36:37  <GitHub19> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #8836: bitcoin-util-test.py should fail if the output file is empty (master...bitcoin-tx-no-empty-outputs) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8836
268 2016-09-30T10:36:38  <luke-jr> wumpus: Konversation; it's mostly due to swapping I think
269 2016-09-30T10:37:01  <wumpus> ok, never used that one, though my experience with KDE apps is that they use lots of memory. This is very old experience though.
270 2016-09-30T10:37:02  <luke-jr> OS: GNU/Linux 4.4.21-gentoo/x86_64 - CPU: 8 x Intel(R) Core™ i7-4771 CPU @ 3.50GHz (3699.882 MHz) - Processes: 409 - Uptime:  10:36:55 up  3:02,  8 users,  load average: 22.22, 20.22, 16.76 - Memory Usage: 20422MB/15950MB (128%)
271 2016-09-30T10:37:44  <sipa> my irc client uses 21660 kB of RES
272 2016-09-30T10:38:56  <luke-jr> gdb needs some way to report wtf is using so much memory
273 2016-09-30T10:39:17  <sipa> gdb?
274 2016-09-30T10:39:24  <sipa> how about top
275 2016-09-30T10:39:29  <wumpus> mine is currently IRSSI, running on an amazon EC2 nano instance, 512 MB ram of which 250MB used, of which 117 by IRC
276 2016-09-30T10:39:56  <sipa> irssi as well here
277 2016-09-30T10:39:58  <wumpus> that's virtual size not RSS, RSS is something like 10MB
278 2016-09-30T10:40:52  <sipa> 167 MB virtual here
279 2016-09-30T10:41:32  * sipa remembers the joke "emacs == eight megabytes and constantly swapping"
280 2016-09-30T10:41:48  <wumpus> luke-jr: there are some heap debugger tools, I found the one in gperftools reasonanly useful. But that's per-process, not system-wide
281 2016-09-30T10:42:11  <wumpus> system-wide yes tools like gtop seem to do the job?
282 2016-09-30T10:42:15  *** aureianimus has quit IRC
283 2016-09-30T10:42:24  <wumpus> -g
284 2016-09-30T10:42:24  *** aureianimus has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
285 2016-09-30T10:42:44  <luke-jr> top just tells processes :p
286 2016-09-30T10:42:45  <wumpus> there's no gtop, htop is nice tho :)
287 2016-09-30T10:42:58  <luke-jr> RSS doesn't really work when swapping
288 2016-09-30T10:44:31  <wumpus> I also like "dstat -cdnpmgs --top-bio --top-cpu" a lot, it also shows the most i/o using process
289 2016-09-30T10:45:53  <luke-jr> 9 GB used by KDE for trivial crap
290 2016-09-30T10:45:55  <luke-jr> fun
291 2016-09-30T10:46:11  <wumpus> welcome to modern linux distros :(
292 2016-09-30T10:46:19  <sipa> maybe try a different desktop environment?
293 2016-09-30T10:46:34  <sipa> over time i've moved to more lightweight ones
294 2016-09-30T10:46:40  <wumpus> so many background services and such for the GUI, it's almost like windows these days in that regard
295 2016-09-30T10:46:46  <sipa> all i need is a terminal and a browser anyway
296 2016-09-30T10:46:51  <luke-jr> wumpus: iotop works well
297 2016-09-30T10:47:05  <wumpus> yes same here
298 2016-09-30T10:47:26  <wumpus> even tend to use lynx as a browser sometimes, for viewing python docs and such
299 2016-09-30T10:48:15  <luke-jr> sipa: I tried a few and couldn't find any I liked :/
300 2016-09-30T10:48:19  <wumpus> to reduce mouse usage and such
301 2016-09-30T10:48:51  <wumpus> luke-jr: lxqt must be something for you
302 2016-09-30T10:49:16  * luke-jr kills all Chromium's tabs and gets it down to 13 GB (83%)
303 2016-09-30T10:49:30  <luke-jr> wumpus: yeah, tried that. the main thing I need is a WM, and lxqt doesn't do that :|
304 2016-09-30T10:50:29  <wumpus> GUI browsers use so much memory
305 2016-09-30T10:50:29  <luke-jr> yes
306 2016-09-30T10:50:38  <luke-jr> I wonder what it'd drop to if I quit it entirely
307 2016-09-30T10:53:15  *** aureianimus has quit IRC
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309 2016-09-30T10:54:22  <wumpus> for the ultimate minimalism you could run Weston :) A minimal wayland compositor, doesn't do much more than showing windows and being able to switch between them, with a launcher bar with one button: to start a terminal... hehe
310 2016-09-30T10:55:21  <luke-jr> 10 GB (60%) with Chromium entirely dead
311 2016-09-30T10:56:22  <luke-jr> wumpus: but.. taskbar and systray and stuff :x
312 2016-09-30T10:57:09  <wumpus> yes, it has none of that, even more limited than 90's desktop environment,it's really meant as a base for embedded systems not for desktop usage, but a few hardcore people do
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316 2016-09-30T10:59:48  <sipa> luke-jr: i haven't had a taskbar in almost 10 years
317 2016-09-30T11:00:53  <sipa> wumpus: heh, i should try that
318 2016-09-30T11:01:59  <sipa> xmonad isn't that much more
319 2016-09-30T11:03:20  <luke-jr> Windows NT worked with 16 GB RAM :<
320 2016-09-30T11:03:21  <luke-jr> MB*
321 2016-09-30T11:03:29  <wumpus> yes xmonad looks like something I should take a look at some day
322 2016-09-30T11:04:13  <wumpus> I guess you mean windows NT worked with 16 *MB* RAM?
323 2016-09-30T11:04:26  *** aureianimus has quit IRC
324 2016-09-30T11:04:28  <wumpus> though like emacs it was probably swapping all the time :)
325 2016-09-30T11:04:34  *** aureianimus has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
326 2016-09-30T11:05:07  <sipa> i think the first system on which i installed linux had 32 MB
327 2016-09-30T11:05:24  *** davec has quit IRC
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329 2016-09-30T11:06:39  <wumpus> I don't remember anymore how much memory my 486 had, but it was very few, I remember reverse-engineering the BIOS to find the registers to map 384kB extra
330 2016-09-30T11:06:55  <wumpus> now we don't blink at that amount...
331 2016-09-30T11:07:00  <luke-jr> lol
332 2016-09-30T11:07:18  <sipa> i may misremember. it was a pentium 60MHz
333 2016-09-30T11:08:20  <wumpus> I had an extremely crappy PC, for a long time, which was a big driver for me to look at things like Linux in the first place
334 2016-09-30T11:09:27  * luke-jr figures out the trick to disable compositing
335 2016-09-30T11:09:29  <wumpus> no, I think that works out
336 2016-09-30T11:11:51  <luke-jr> not that it helped :<
337 2016-09-30T11:12:03  <luke-jr> load average: 48.20, 34.62, 24.88 <-- I didn't know it could get that high
338 2016-09-30T11:12:14  <wumpus> I'd expect disabling compositing to mainly free GPU memory
339 2016-09-30T11:12:27  *** AaronvanW has quit IRC
340 2016-09-30T11:13:40  <luke-jr> also killed the annoying shadow :D
341 2016-09-30T11:13:58  <wumpus> don't people use KDE for the fancy effects? :)
342 2016-09-30T11:14:08  <luke-jr> not I
343 2016-09-30T11:14:19  <luke-jr> turn all that crap off
344 2016-09-30T11:15:18  <wumpus> the first time I saw a wobbling window, or a workspace switch animation it seemed quite impressive, quickly after that it becomes a waste of time
345 2016-09-30T11:15:33  <luke-jr> heh, and a bandwidth eater when accessing remotely
346 2016-09-30T11:15:38  *** aureianimus has quit IRC
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348 2016-09-30T11:17:33  <sipa> wumpus: yeah, i used beryl and compiz and luminosity for a while
349 2016-09-30T11:17:51  <wumpus> luke-jr: yes, even if 'remotely' is localhost different VM
350 2016-09-30T11:18:15  <sipa> but it was mostly good for impressing windows users who made snarky comments about linux's UI :)
351 2016-09-30T11:18:20  <luke-jr> wumpus: well, I have to disagree there. I had no problems doing 3D gaming over VNC to a VM some years ago.
352 2016-09-30T11:18:33  <wumpus> sipa: hahah exactly!
353 2016-09-30T11:18:38  <wumpus> sipa: 'it should look like in the movies'
354 2016-09-30T11:19:14  <luke-jr> a VM within a VM even XD
355 2016-09-30T11:19:28  <sipa> also, i used enlightenment 17 somewhere in 2005
356 2016-09-30T11:19:35  <luke-jr> (KVM running PCSX2 with GPU and USB controller passthrough, viewed over VNC)
357 2016-09-30T11:19:37  <sipa> a decade before it was released, i think
358 2016-09-30T11:19:45  <wumpus> luke-jr: did that have a special protocol to route the 3D drawing commands?
359 2016-09-30T11:19:51  <luke-jr> wumpus: no, just VNC
360 2016-09-30T11:20:01  <luke-jr> Tight/JPEG encoding I guess
361 2016-09-30T11:20:02  <wumpus> luke-jr: eh GPU passthrough is essentially the same
362 2016-09-30T11:20:16  <luke-jr> wumpus: not really. that's just for the rendering :P
363 2016-09-30T11:20:30  <luke-jr> I didn't view on that GPU
364 2016-09-30T11:20:39  <wumpus> okay, right
365 2016-09-30T11:21:50  <luke-jr> someday when I have free time (haha) maybe I'll finish .hack XD
366 2016-09-30T11:26:19  <midnightmagic> dwm or fail :-P
367 2016-09-30T11:26:33  *** aureianimus has quit IRC
368 2016-09-30T11:26:34  <luke-jr> apparently I'm going to have to find *something*
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370 2016-09-30T11:27:43  <luke-jr> annoying, Qt5 has decided you need KDE to get any theming, so I'll end up losing that I guess
371 2016-09-30T11:28:18  <sipa> my window manager uses 7.7 MB of RSS
372 2016-09-30T11:29:21  <sipa> my terminal emulator 61 MB, Xord 112 MB, and firefox 987 MB
373 2016-09-30T11:29:28  <sipa> *Xorg
374 2016-09-30T11:30:58  <wumpus> luke-jr: you can also theme qt through gtk *ducks*
375 2016-09-30T11:31:19  <luke-jr> >_<
376 2016-09-30T11:31:38  <luke-jr> I think that needs GNOME running?
377 2016-09-30T11:31:59  <wumpus> I don't think so, Ubuntu uses it too and Unity is not GNOME
378 2016-09-30T11:32:22  <luke-jr> unfortunately, half the reason I want Qt is because GTK is terrible
379 2016-09-30T11:32:29  <wumpus> I think it's just a qt plugin that themes-like-gtk
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383 2016-09-30T11:39:05  <wumpus> but it surpirses me to hear that Qt5 has no native theming ability anymore, that's kind of weird, I'm fairly sure qt5 is used a lot in embedded development and those companies all use their own theming.
384 2016-09-30T11:39:39  <wumpus> which doesn't say that much, a lot just gets hacked on
385 2016-09-30T11:42:21  <luke-jr> I think it has the ability, but it's not possible to configure it without a "platform module"
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388 2016-09-30T11:51:52  <sipa> if you use mmap with MAP_FIXED and specify nullptr as address, are you afterwards able to dereference nullptr?
389 2016-09-30T11:52:17  <luke-jr> sipa: I think dosbox uses this?
390 2016-09-30T11:52:22  <sipa> assuming you make the compiler sufficiently dumb to not optimize things away that it believes are impossible
391 2016-09-30T11:52:42  <luke-jr> of course, C still considers it undefined behaviour
392 2016-09-30T11:52:48  <luke-jr> I think recent Linux has an option to block it too
393 2016-09-30T11:52:56  <luke-jr> since it's been used in exploits or something
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400 2016-09-30T12:43:08  <wumpus> sipa: yes, if the OS allows that that's a valid way to mmap the null page
401 2016-09-30T12:43:44  <wumpus> I vaguely remember modern linux distros disallow it by default
402 2016-09-30T12:43:56  <wumpus> because it could be used to trick the kernel in some cases
403 2016-09-30T12:44:40  <wumpus> luke-jr: yes exactly
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405 2016-09-30T12:47:35  <wumpus> C compilers will still regard nullptr as an invalid pointer, no matter what is actually mapped there, this can cause surprises on MMU-less platforms that map I/O registers in that range
406 2016-09-30T12:51:38  <sipa> sure, it's undefined behaviour to dereference a null pointer, i assume
407 2016-09-30T12:52:46  <wumpus> indeed
408 2016-09-30T12:53:07  <wumpus> so statements just disappear, sometimes at random,m depending on the mood of the compiler
409 2016-09-30T12:53:47  <wumpus> recompile and they may be there again. C is a jungle with its undefined behavior...
410 2016-09-30T12:54:03  <wumpus> (well recompile with a small change, maybe in a different function)
411 2016-09-30T12:55:13  <wumpus> your best bet is to do it in assembly, then use a volatile asm() block which the comiler isnot allowed to optimize away
412 2016-09-30T12:55:33  <wumpus> or even a function defined in an auxiliary .s file
413 2016-09-30T12:56:28  *** aureianimus_ has quit IRC
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415 2016-09-30T13:06:31  <sipa> c++ has even more undefined behaviour :)
416 2016-09-30T13:07:03  <wumpus> oh yes, I certainly didn't mean that C++ is any better in that regard
417 2016-09-30T13:07:04  <sipa> taking a reference to a nullpointer, and taking a pointer to it will in any sane architecture give you a null pointer again, but it is undefined
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448 2016-09-30T15:04:02  <GitHub8> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/90adfabd5daa...ef0801bd1381
449 2016-09-30T15:04:02  <GitHub8> bitcoin/master b82f493 jnewbery: Add option to run bitcoin-util-test.py manually
450 2016-09-30T15:04:02  <GitHub8> bitcoin/master ef0801b Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #8830: [test] Add option to run bitcoin-util-test.py manually...
451 2016-09-30T15:04:12  <GitHub48> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #8830: [test] Add option to run bitcoin-util-test.py manually (master...test-bitcoin-util-manually) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8830
452 2016-09-30T15:09:24  *** jtimon has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
453 2016-09-30T15:11:20  <GitHub121> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 3 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/ef0801bd1381...9bc6a6bd7b0d
454 2016-09-30T15:11:21  <GitHub121> bitcoin/master 41e58fa Wladimir J. van der Laan: net: Consistent checksum handling...
455 2016-09-30T15:11:21  <GitHub121> bitcoin/master 305087b Wladimir J. van der Laan: net: Hardcode protocol sizes and use fixed-size types...
456 2016-09-30T15:11:22  <GitHub121> bitcoin/master 9bc6a6b Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #8822: net: Consistent checksum handling...
457 2016-09-30T15:11:24  <GitHub171> [bitcoin] jl2012 opened pull request #8848: Add NULLDUMMY verify flag in bitcoinconsensus.h (master...consensusnulldummy) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8848
458 2016-09-30T15:11:35  <GitHub165> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #8822: net: Consistent checksum handling (master...2016_09_normalize_checksum_handling) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8822
459 2016-09-30T15:13:14  <GitHub8> [bitcoin] czzarr opened pull request #8849: print P2WSH redeemScript in getrawtransaction if it s not a pubkey (master...print-p2wsh-redeemscript-in-getrawtransaction) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8849
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462 2016-09-30T15:28:44  <GitHub8> [bitcoin] laanwj opened pull request #8850: Implement (begin|end)_ptr in C++11 and add deprecation comment (master...2016_09_beginptr_deprecation) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8850
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473 2016-09-30T16:20:22  <GitHub54> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/9bc6a6bd7b0d...fb24d7eeb47e
474 2016-09-30T16:20:22  <GitHub54> bitcoin/master a92bf4a Matthew King: bitcoind: Daemonize using daemon(3)...
475 2016-09-30T16:20:23  <GitHub54> bitcoin/master fb24d7e Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #8813: bitcoind: Daemonize using daemon(3)...
476 2016-09-30T16:20:35  <GitHub61> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #8813: bitcoind: Daemonize using daemon(3) (master...2016_09_daemonize) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8813
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486 2016-09-30T16:53:58  <wumpus> anything else ready for merge?
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488 2016-09-30T16:57:01  <MarcoFalke> probably not. The remaining 130 pulls are waiting for review :P
489 2016-09-30T16:58:10  <wumpus> or rebase
490 2016-09-30T16:58:55  <wumpus> e.g. https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8375
491 2016-09-30T16:59:09  <gmaxwell> or to be put out of their misery. :P
492 2016-09-30T16:59:13  <jtimon> in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/5 please move #8526  to done
493 2016-09-30T16:59:54  <wumpus> but it happens that a pull has tons of ACKs and I miss it, that's why I asked
494 2016-09-30T16:59:58  <wumpus> heh :P
495 2016-09-30T17:00:41  <wumpus> jtimon: thanks, done
496 2016-09-30T17:00:52  <jtimon> thanks, np
497 2016-09-30T17:01:28  <GitHub100> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #8633: Ugly hack to print out tests as they are run to mitigate travis timeouts (master...test-driver-hack) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8633
498 2016-09-30T17:03:51  <jtimon> #8337 would make #8493 easier to read/replace but the acks were before the last rebase...re-review (or new review) welcomed...
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501 2016-09-30T17:12:55  <GitHub192> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #8851: [wallet] Move key derivation logic from GenerateNewKey to DeriveNewChildKey (pstratem) (master...Mf1610-walletDeriveNewChildPStratem) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8851
502 2016-09-30T17:13:55  <wumpus> jtimon: will take a look
503 2016-09-30T17:14:24  <wumpus> MarcoFalke: hah also looking at that pull
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505 2016-09-30T17:15:57  <MarcoFalke> I caused the merge conflict so I felt responsible :)
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510 2016-09-30T17:44:41  <wumpus> re: #8828 apparently ud2 is an opcode to explicitly generate a SIGILL "Generates an invalid opcode. This instruction is provided for software testing to explicitly generate an invalid opcode. The opcode for this instruction is reserved for this purpose."
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512 2016-09-30T17:45:50  <wumpus> so that's deliberate, so much for accidental corruption of a function pointer, but why
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516 2016-09-30T17:56:25  <GitHub129> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/fb24d7eeb47e...940748b4b087
517 2016-09-30T17:56:25  <GitHub129> bitcoin/master e198c52 Patrick Strateman: Move key derivation logic from GenerateNewKey to DeriveNewChildKey
518 2016-09-30T17:56:26  <GitHub129> bitcoin/master 940748b Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #8851: [wallet] Move key derivation logic from GenerateNewKey to DeriveNewChildKey (pstratem)...
519 2016-09-30T17:56:40  <GitHub187> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #8375: [Wallet] Move key derivation logic from GenerateNewKey to DeriveNewChildKey (master...2016-07-19-cwallet-derivenewkey) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8375
520 2016-09-30T17:56:43  <GitHub44> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #8851: [wallet] Move key derivation logic from GenerateNewKey to DeriveNewChildKey (pstratem) (master...Mf1610-walletDeriveNewChildPStratem) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8851
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533 2016-09-30T18:28:59  <wumpus> paveljanik: congrats on finding the problem
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537 2016-09-30T18:32:15  <paveljanik> wumpus, I was not able to parse the line mentally ;-)
538 2016-09-30T18:32:30  <paveljanik> I had to diff the left side and right side...
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540 2016-09-30T18:33:05  <wumpus> paveljanik: I don't think anyone is, as it would involve a mental infinite loop
541 2016-09-30T18:33:13  <wumpus> but I hadn't noticed it
542 2016-09-30T18:34:12  <wumpus> anyhow the lesson is, if you do something as crazy as this and create a recursive reference, the compiler will generate an invalid instruction deliberately
543 2016-09-30T18:35:01  <paveljanik> I think this is a bug in the compiler.
544 2016-09-30T18:35:23  <wumpus> I don't know. How would you convert it to assembly if you were a compiler?
545 2016-09-30T18:35:42  <paveljanik> I'd error.
546 2016-09-30T18:35:50  <wumpus> it just makes no sense, garbage in, garbage out
547 2016-09-30T18:35:52  <wumpus> yes okay
548 2016-09-30T18:42:29  <GitHub16> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #8795: [doc] Mention Gitian building script in documents. (master...master) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8795
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550 2016-09-30T18:49:03  <cfields_> wumpus / MarcoFalke: before I forget: #8708 adds some sanity assertions that weren't there before. We were doing some things that didn't make sense. It immediately caused a few crashes for me, fixed in 89c5742. I suspect it will cause a few more assertion failures post-merge
551 2016-09-30T18:49:10  <cfields_> blah, nice timing
552 2016-09-30T18:50:10  <GitHub95> [bitcoin] laanwj opened pull request #8852: Mention Gitian building script in doc (master...2016_09_laudaa_master) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8852
553 2016-09-30T18:50:25  <cfields_> wumpus: oh right, I meant to backport those 2 fixes for 0.13...
554 2016-09-30T18:51:30  <GitHub151> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/940748b4b087...7b784cc2bbcd
555 2016-09-30T18:51:30  <GitHub151> bitcoin/master 203e2dd Lauda: Mention Gitian building script in doc.
556 2016-09-30T18:51:34  <GitHub151> bitcoin/master 7b784cc Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #8852: Mention Gitian building script in doc (Laudaa)...
557 2016-09-30T18:51:40  <GitHub118> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #8852: Mention Gitian building script in doc (Laudaa) (master...2016_09_laudaa_master) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8852
558 2016-09-30T18:51:45  <wumpus> cfields_: makes sense
559 2016-09-30T18:55:48  <wumpus> cfields_: there's still oppertunity for that, 0.13.1 isn't out yet! :)
560 2016-09-30T18:56:49  <cfields_> wumpus: I figured you'd yell :). Doing now.
561 2016-09-30T18:57:46  <wumpus> paveljanik: I think overall that's a good point though, C/C++ compilers tend to raise errors only if something is absolutely disallowed due to syntax errors or such, if code makes just no sense and the compiler has no clue what to do with it, is apparently not enough reason
562 2016-09-30T18:58:36  <wumpus> cfields_: yes sorry, so many things to keep track of
563 2016-09-30T18:59:24  <paveljanik> compilers are afraid of errors. because their users would point to them... But sometime the bug is between the keyboard and the computer :-)
564 2016-09-30T18:59:25  <cfields_> wumpus: nono, I meant I figured you'd yell if I pr'd an addition to 0.13.1 at this point. I certainly wasn't expecting you to nag me about it.
565 2016-09-30T18:59:29  <wumpus> paveljanik: same for undefined behavior. Compilers just remove statements and instructions when something is undefined. If they were less sadistic they could just raise errors...
566 2016-09-30T18:59:42  <paveljanik> yes, definitely.
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569 2016-09-30T19:05:03  <wumpus> cfields_: I don't know, I was surprised that 0.13.1 didn't come forward as topic at all in this week's meeting. I think between the segwit fix-ups you can certainly still sneak in network fixes
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578 2016-09-30T19:32:34  <GitHub161> [bitcoin] czzarr opened pull request #8853: add p2sh and segwit options to bitcoin-tx outscript command (master...add-p2sh-segwit-options-to-bitcoin-tx) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8853
579 2016-09-30T19:33:59  <GitHub180> [bitcoin] czzarr closed pull request #8853: add p2sh and segwit options to bitcoin-tx outscript command (master...add-p2sh-segwit-options-to-bitcoin-tx) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8853
580 2016-09-30T19:34:18  <wumpus> huh
581 2016-09-30T19:35:31  <wumpus> this is already the second segwit-related pull that user opens accidentally against our repo and closes immediately: the other was #8816 4 days ago
582 2016-09-30T19:36:03  <BlueMatt> wumpus: same guy, meant to get private review before pr'ing to bitcoin core directly
583 2016-09-30T19:36:24  <wumpus> BlueMatt: ok :)
584 2016-09-30T19:37:52  <morcos> sipa: the optimistic write to pcoinsTip was a fantastic idea.  thanks.  i took a first pass at implementing it and it looks pretty good.  i'm going to play with it some more.
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589 2016-09-30T20:10:15  <gmaxwell> I think we all know whats needed for 0.13 mostly.
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591 2016-09-30T20:15:03  <BlueMatt> what are the current thoughts on GetWitnessHash caching? (and before gmaxwell screams again, this isnt about 0.13.1)
592 2016-09-30T20:18:25  <sdaftuar> BlueMatt: i think we should do it, right?  (you mean caching it in the CTransaction object?)
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594 2016-09-30T20:18:34  <BlueMatt> sdaftuar: yes
595 2016-09-30T20:19:38  <sdaftuar> i guess it wastes memory for non-segwit transactions, but it seems to me like we'll want it in the long run
596 2016-09-30T20:19:42  <gmaxwell> Sipa has a PR that takes a good step towards making a flat const ctransaction object.
597 2016-09-30T20:20:11  <gmaxwell> so perhaps the fixed hashes should be done as part of completing that work-- making the objects flat will significantly reduce their memory usage.
598 2016-09-30T20:20:19  <wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8580
599 2016-09-30T20:20:44  <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: heh, i was just looking at that...really hard to do efficiently since our serialization doesnt have length descriptors across the whole thing :(
600 2016-09-30T20:20:58  <sdaftuar> gmaxwell: i had a moment of brief panic the other day when i noticed the CTransaction::operator== function
601 2016-09-30T20:21:03  <sdaftuar> which just compares the stored hashes
602 2016-09-30T20:21:19  <gmaxwell> Well the flat object wouldn't be our seralization.
603 2016-09-30T20:21:45  <gmaxwell> e.g. you wouldn't want it to have varints in it. :)
604 2016-09-30T20:21:53  <BlueMatt> diff --git a/src/primitives/transaction.cpp b/src/primitives/transaction.cpp
605 2016-09-30T20:21:53  <BlueMatt> @@ -76,2 +76,4 @@ uint256 CTransaction::GetWitnessHash() const
606 2016-09-30T20:21:53  <BlueMatt>  {
607 2016-09-30T20:21:53  <BlueMatt> +    if (wit.IsNull())
608 2016-09-30T20:21:53  <BlueMatt> +        return GetHash();
609 2016-09-30T20:22:28  <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: suresure, but it still sucks since you cant prealloc the right size object from the start
610 2016-09-30T20:22:33  <gmaxwell> in any case, withash caching could just follow 8580 before going and flatting things. I expect flattening things will touch a lot of code.
611 2016-09-30T20:22:46  <BlueMatt> def need that for FIBRE ^
612 2016-09-30T20:22:53  <BlueMatt> ehh, that patch, that is
613 2016-09-30T20:22:58  <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: yea, it would end up doing something like deseralize into a mutable transaction then convert that to flat.
614 2016-09-30T20:23:21  <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: hmm, would that actually be faster?
615 2016-09-30T20:24:01  <gmaxwell> an extra copy, but it would save a half dozen or more calls to the heap allocator, and likely later accesses will involve less pointer chasing-- and the data will be smaller and more contigious. I would be fairly surprised if it wasn't.
616 2016-09-30T20:24:21  <BlueMatt> well the deserialization into a mutable transaction would do all the same heap allocations?
617 2016-09-30T20:25:07  <gmaxwell> hm okay indeed it would in the way I described it. Guess more cleverness would be required.
618 2016-09-30T20:25:23  <wumpus> q
619 2016-09-30T20:25:46  <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea, this is why i wanted to just use our serialization and copy to memory, but you cant really do that :(
620 2016-09-30T20:25:55  <BlueMatt> damn DRY serialization format :(
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623 2016-09-30T20:27:53  <gmaxwell> well, not the end of the world. just deseralize into a maximum size buffer kept around for that purpose, then copy into the correct one.
624 2016-09-30T20:28:46  <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: if you want to see if you can fiddle with my compressed txn representation to make it easier to allocate for.. be my guest. Would be interesting if it could be done without losing too much packing efficiency.
625 2016-09-30T20:29:30  <BlueMatt> i mean if you want that just add a length descriptor as the first element over the entire tx (or anything you want to pack)
626 2016-09-30T20:29:42  <BlueMatt> it does ruin our nicely-DRY serialization, but it might be a valid tradeoff here
627 2016-09-30T20:30:43  <gmaxwell> other alternative is to parse twice to extra the length first, but I expect that to be slower than a tidy copy.
628 2016-09-30T20:31:27  <BlueMatt> quite possibly
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630 2016-09-30T20:34:35  <BlueMatt> i mean if we do do a compressed txn format, we might consider this a feature, but I expect its hard to come up with something that can be trivially used for both without needing enough in-memory pointers and such that its no longer so useful
631 2016-09-30T20:36:00  <gmaxwell> oh I don't thin we can have one format for the compressed format and the flat in memory transaction. But we could try to make the compressed format easier to deseralize. E.g. by reading a small amount of it you would know how much to allocate for the flat form.
632 2016-09-30T20:36:05  <gmaxwell> s/thin/think/
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634 2016-09-30T20:37:12  <gmaxwell> e.g. a format that coded all the sizes in the first few bytes. I would have naturally done that in my sketch, except I was trying to avoid having any bitpacking.
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636 2016-09-30T20:38:27  <gmaxwell> but I think it could be reordered as is, so the it first gives all the type bytes and only after them does it seralize the payload.
637 2016-09-30T20:39:09  <gmaxwell> so a sizing parse would only have to handle the first O(txin+txout) bytes or so.
638 2016-09-30T20:48:37  <BlueMatt> yea, but if we have a nice in-memory blob format I can just make FIBRE use it :p
639 2016-09-30T20:48:41  <BlueMatt> then FIBRE will be really fast
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