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 14 2017-09-13T00:40:17  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] promag opened pull request #11316: [qt] Add use available balance in send coins dialog (master...2017-09-add-use-available-balance) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11316
 15 2017-09-13T00:45:25  <esotericnonsense> er, this seems like the most reasonable place to ask, apologies if not - what's the deal with slack.bitcoincore.org?
 16 2017-09-13T00:45:49  <esotericnonsense> (or bitcoincore.org in general; is it endorsed?)
 17 2017-09-13T00:46:44  <meshcollider> Yes, its the website given in the readme https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/README.md
 18 2017-09-13T00:47:49  <esotericnonsense> cool, thanks meshcollider
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 22 2017-09-13T00:53:48  <achow101> esotericnonsense: bitcoincore.org is the bitcoin core's website
 23 2017-09-13T00:54:01  <achow101> the slack channel is Bitcoin Core's slack channel. It's mostly for random shit, not development
 24 2017-09-13T00:54:11  <achow101> go there for laughs and trolling
 25 2017-09-13T00:54:19  <esotericnonsense> slack is invented for random shit
 26 2017-09-13T00:54:36  * esotericnonsense is currently trying to figure out the irc gateway to avoid falling into the trap of pressing the meme buttons
 27 2017-09-13T00:54:43  <esotericnonsense> :) thanks
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 29 2017-09-13T00:59:01  <gmaxwell> 17:54:01 < achow101> the slack channel is Bitcoin Core's slack channel.
 30 2017-09-13T00:59:14  <gmaxwell> No it is a _community_ slack which is almost completely unused by actual developers.
 31 2017-09-13T00:59:26  <gmaxwell> I know you and luke use it, most of the developers do not.
 32 2017-09-13T00:59:41  <gmaxwell> A wish btcdrak would close it, it has caused a lot of drama and harm.
 33 2017-09-13T01:00:03  <StopAndDecrypt_> gmaxwell, difference between this and #bitcoin-dev ?
 34 2017-09-13T01:00:07  <gmaxwell> it was created against active opposition by a number of developers.
 35 2017-09-13T01:00:23  <esotericnonsense> it is currently breaking my irc client enumerating the 6000+ users in every chat
 36 2017-09-13T01:00:35  <sipa> #bitcoin-dev is about bitcoin; #bitcoin-core-dev is about development of one specific software project
 37 2017-09-13T01:01:16  <achow101> gmaxwell: it was created by an admin of bitcoincore.org
 38 2017-09-13T01:01:41  <achow101> it is arguably created by "Bitcoin Core"
 39 2017-09-13T01:03:08  <gmaxwell> StopAndDecrypt_: We used to use bitcoin-dev. Then one day Mike Hearn was a real jerk, in particular faulting wumpus for being 'indecisive', wumpus told him to cut it out, mike kept it up. Wumpus banned him. (so much for indecisive).  Then out of nowhere jgarzik, who for who knows what reason still had access, unbanned mike hearn. So most of the developers simply left.
 40 2017-09-13T01:03:53  <gmaxwell> sipa: I don't think thats fair to say, -- a channel for bitcoin that hardly has any of the most active people isn't much of one.
 41 2017-09-13T01:04:32  <esotericnonsense> i've disconnected now because it basically dosed my irc bouncer, that was shortlived
 42 2017-09-13T01:04:57  <meshcollider> yeah that was the first channel I joined, but its pretty inactive, that's why sipa pointed me to this one instead
 43 2017-09-13T01:05:53  <gmaxwell> it's confusing to people for sure. It's not completely inactive though, a while back I was going to close it down if it went a week with no discussion but it didn't quite make it.
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 45 2017-09-13T01:07:41  <esotericnonsense> my interpretation was that this channel was for direct work on the bitcoin codebase whilst bitcoin-dev was for general bitcoin-related development e.g. wallets, merchant integration, etc
 46 2017-09-13T01:07:50  <esotericnonsense> but yeah, it's pretty dead in there
 47 2017-09-13T01:11:34  <gmaxwell> esotericnonsense: it can't be that without the most active developers involved, and at the time people with admin access there were behaving disrespectfully to these people.  (Access is since changed.)  None of us have much interest in wheel warring, if a venue has become unproductive for us to use, we won't use it.  For something like a bitcoin tech discussion if the most active of the tech peo
 48 2017-09-13T01:11:40  <gmaxwell> ple leave, it's going to die.
 49 2017-09-13T01:12:01  <esotericnonsense> indeed
 50 2017-09-13T01:14:03  <gmaxwell> There is this open venue toxic culture problem, where people will show up and behave abusively, and if you kick them out it's ZOMG CENSORSHIP but if you don't kick them out, competent people just won't bother with the place and thus it eventually dies.
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 52 2017-09-13T01:15:22  <gmaxwell> big reason I opposed the slack, beyond it being a commercial propritary venue and primarily web only, is that it was creating yet another venue where either your tolerate abuse or suffer drama when you punt people.
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 54 2017-09-13T01:21:38  <aj> slack's theoretically a bit more friendly to less technical people than irc, so i kinda liked the thought for that, but i think they're all secluded in private dragonsden channels or whatever now leaving the public ones for full-time drama
 55 2017-09-13T01:22:45  <sipa> i think it's fine for communities to use slack as a medium if they like to do so... i just don't think it should be 'officially' bitcoin core's slack
 56 2017-09-13T01:22:53  <sipa> especially when few developers use it
 57 2017-09-13T01:24:50  <meshcollider> speaking of weird things on the bitcoincore website, whats the point of this? https://bitcoincore.org/en/supporters/
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 59 2017-09-13T01:25:45  <aj> yeah... when it was started the meme it was trying to address was "core is great, it just doesn't communicate well", but without dev participation slack doesn't really solve that problem much...
 60 2017-09-13T01:28:17  <aj> meshcollider: counter to the "support" list on http://web.archive.org/web/20160118073735/https://bitcoinclassic.com/ i think
 61 2017-09-13T01:28:24  <gmaxwell> aj: we should have just put embedded web irc links on the site. e.g. the webchat link at the top https://opus-codec.org/development/
 62 2017-09-13T01:29:08  <gmaxwell> arguably web slack is nicer, but it would avoid fragmenting the community.
 63 2017-09-13T01:29:25  <meshcollider> why not remove the slack from the site then?
 64 2017-09-13T01:29:54  <gmaxwell> ACK
 65 2017-09-13T01:30:37  <meshcollider> btcdrak will not like that though
 66 2017-09-13T01:30:53  <StopAndDecrypt_> anybody who needs to communicate and has value to contribute would know how to at least establish contact
 67 2017-09-13T01:31:05  <StopAndDecrypt_> communication isnt difficult, its a litmus test, i dont even code
 68 2017-09-13T01:31:07  <aj> gmaxwell: plus a link to the botbot archives; it'd only miss out on push notifications then
 69 2017-09-13T01:32:05  <aj> meshcollider: the website's managed by github, a pull request with a bunch of dev acks seems like a reasonable thing to do to me
 70 2017-09-13T01:33:08  <meshcollider> drak is like lead maintainer of that repo though isnt he
 71 2017-09-13T01:33:18  <gmaxwell> StopAndDecrypt_: well we also want to talk to users! and some aren't going to figure out how to get on IRC.  I think the freenode webchat is sufficient.
 72 2017-09-13T01:33:35  <sipa> meshcollider: what repo?
 73 2017-09-13T01:33:43  <meshcollider> https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoincore.org/graphs/contributors
 74 2017-09-13T01:33:45  <aj> meshcollider: yeah; wumpus is lead maintainer of the bitcoin repo, doesn't mean either of them don't care what other people think
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 76 2017-09-13T01:35:31  <instagibbs> bitcoincore.org is mostly a venue for posting FAQs, blog post versions of announcements for releases and the like
 77 2017-09-13T01:38:05  <StopAndDecrypt_> gmaxwell, well yeah, there's people who want to reach in, and then there's reaching out for feedback. reddit helps, but nobody should feel obligated to post on reddit, especially when a lot of it is just to dismiss some wild claim being made. it's helpfull though.
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112 2017-09-13T07:30:29  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] gmaxwell opened pull request #11318: Put back inadvertently removed copyright notices (master...fix_copying) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11318
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123 2017-09-13T07:56:33  <CodeShark> the Core slack is a necessary outlet for shits and giggles...and a tremendous amount of great comms have taken place there, albeit not always in the general chat channel
124 2017-09-13T07:57:05  <CodeShark> I have been able to get a hold of a LOT of people through that Slack that would not come on IRC
125 2017-09-13T07:57:53  <CodeShark> most of it via other channels or private chats
126 2017-09-13T07:58:14  <CodeShark> without it it would have been near impossible to coordinate several important efforts
127 2017-09-13T07:59:27  <gmaxwell> CodeShark: I think it is toxic for our community. Case in point: people like you that we never see here, and yet many people think you are a high profile developer.
128 2017-09-13T07:59:37  <gmaxwell> Because of your much higher level of activity on the slack.
129 2017-09-13T07:59:58  <CodeShark> the communications are necessary
130 2017-09-13T08:00:14  <CodeShark> without them, people just make shit up...and it's often unfavorable
131 2017-09-13T08:00:59  <CodeShark> and there's a lot more to the Bitcoin Core project than just submitting pull requests and doing code review
132 2017-09-13T08:02:32  <gmaxwell> CodeShark: Which is why having the split is not acceptable.
133 2017-09-13T08:04:37  <CodeShark> I was working on my own Bitcoin implementation and codebase prior to this whole hard forking insanity and decided to volunteer most of my time to help Bitcoin Core instead. prior to that I use to come here more, but I realized that many people still needed basic information
134 2017-09-13T08:05:52  <sipa> sure, but why does that need to happen under the "Bitcoin Core" name?
135 2017-09-13T08:06:25  <gmaxwell> I'm thankful for your help but the lack of communication is a serious problem.
136 2017-09-13T08:06:55  <CodeShark> for better or worse that was the brand that people recognized. I would prefer people make the distinction between implementation and consensus rule definitions, but that's just not how much of the public perception works right now
137 2017-09-13T08:07:08  <CodeShark> have tried hard to change that, but there's tremendous resistance
138 2017-09-13T08:07:58  <CodeShark> FWIW, now that segwit is active I'd rather shift efforts back to building stuff rather than putting out fires
139 2017-09-13T08:08:03  <gmaxwell> That response is a bit shocking.
140 2017-09-13T08:08:58  <CodeShark> not sure what lack of communication you're referring to - you mean the fact I don't come here nearly as much as I did a couple years ago?
141 2017-09-13T08:09:20  <gmaxwell> Because what it sounds like is that the focus is actually a "bitcoiners for sanity" which then borrowed our project's name and reputation, but doesn't actually care to advance its positions or even communicate closely with it.
142 2017-09-13T08:09:27  *** chjj has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
143 2017-09-13T08:10:19  <CodeShark> I try my best to keep abreast of important developments within Bitcoin Core and do my best to communicate them
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145 2017-09-13T08:10:38  <CodeShark> and get paid $0 for it
146 2017-09-13T08:10:41  <gmaxwell> CodeShark: that most of the slack people are effectively not involved in the project itself in any serious ongoing capacity, including not hanging out here.  It has serious negative results, like you carrying around a we'd never use BIP9 message again, which is entirely not what I'm thinking and I doubt its what other people are thinking.
147 2017-09-13T08:11:08  <gmaxwell> So it's going to be an inevitable messaging circus when we do.
148 2017-09-13T08:11:38  <CodeShark> I wasn't the only one that carried that message
149 2017-09-13T08:11:46  <gmaxwell> I've been thankful for the positive contributions for sure! but the disconnection is a serious liability.
150 2017-09-13T08:11:46  <CodeShark> many contributors seem to feel that way
151 2017-09-13T08:12:05  <gmaxwell> let me guess, luke-jr. ...  The slack needs to go away.
152 2017-09-13T08:12:36  <CodeShark> the slack is necessary as an outlet for people
153 2017-09-13T08:12:58  <sipa> CodeShark: the fact that you have that impressions and i don't probably means there is a communications failure :)
154 2017-09-13T08:13:27  <CodeShark> ok, then perhaps we can do more to fix that
155 2017-09-13T08:14:21  <gmaxwell> There appears to be a serious split brain problem.
156 2017-09-13T08:14:33  <CodeShark> it's hard to shift gears, sure
157 2017-09-13T08:14:39  <gmaxwell> I've spent time talking to some other people who are mostly in the slack and hearing radically different views on things.
158 2017-09-13T08:16:18  <CodeShark> I just saw Bitcoin Core viciously attacked a couple years ago and hostile parties form...and did whatever I could to communicate basic principles. it's impossible to get everyone aligned on all the details, but the priority was around trying to at least have a coherent overarching message
159 2017-09-13T08:17:00  <sipa> a message that includes "nobody wants a full mempool" ?
160 2017-09-13T08:17:12  <CodeShark> that was not my message...
161 2017-09-13T08:17:48  <CodeShark> but in the big scheme of things at this moment, it is a detail that is still hard to communicate
162 2017-09-13T08:18:03  <gmaxwell> I'm not criticising the helpful moves, but we can't afford a split brain.
163 2017-09-13T08:19:01  <CodeShark> I believe #bitcoin-core-dev should focus more on tech developments and code. we have other channels for things like media strategy
164 2017-09-13T08:20:14  <sipa> today seems to be an exception, the topic here is hardly ever about anything else
165 2017-09-13T08:21:13  <CodeShark> indeed - so if you want tighter coordination on other stuff I would suggest participating in these other channels more. I don't want to spam this channel with issues that are not directly related to engineering
166 2017-09-13T08:22:16  <gmaxwell> I don't think it's acceptable for the comms stuff to continue with virtually no input from the people actively involved with the software project, under the projects name.
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168 2017-09-13T08:22:40  <gmaxwell> The liability is simply too great. Plus it's an outright misrepresentation.
169 2017-09-13T08:22:52  <CodeShark> you know how to reach me - I always value your input
170 2017-09-13T08:23:21  <gmaxwell> Permitting that kind of thing is 80% of why gavin turned into such a circus, we are making the same mistake again but scaled up.
171 2017-09-13T08:23:39  <gmaxwell> The fact that the people involved don't suck doesn't make it that much better. :)
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173 2017-09-13T08:24:26  <CodeShark> I just wanted to build good products atop bitcoin and decided to support the Bitcoin Core project however I could because it's the most stable, most reliable, most secure implementation of validation and relay
174 2017-09-13T08:24:38  <CodeShark> I would prefer to continue building good products
175 2017-09-13T08:24:46  <CodeShark> I didn't ask for these other jobs
176 2017-09-13T08:24:58  <gmaxwell> In any case, I think my core ask is rally simple: lets end the splitbrainness. I'm not asking you to stop your advocacy, I'm generally thankful for it.
177 2017-09-13T08:25:35  <sipa> CodeShark: gmaxwell is not saying "CodeShark is doing a bad job"; he's saying "it's scary that there is a disconnect between these two communities"
178 2017-09-13T08:25:36  <gmaxwell> But if things are going to operate under the projects name they must be at least somewhat coordinated with the project contributors.  Having a totally siloed comms enviroment makes that almost impossible.
179 2017-09-13T08:25:46  <gmaxwell> what sipa said!
180 2017-09-13T08:26:24  <CodeShark> ok, fixing this disconnect is a reasonable goal
181 2017-09-13T08:26:36  <gmaxwell> I think you've done an amazing job and considering how little communications there are I'm surprised that there have been so few wtf-is-he-saying events, a testament to your skills.
182 2017-09-13T08:27:16  <gmaxwell> yea! that is all I'm really going for.
183 2017-09-13T08:29:03  <CodeShark> in any case, there's going to be a tremendous amount of bullshit lobbed around - it's part of the curse of being one of the people who most knows about a subject. most of what you hear other people say about it is wrong
184 2017-09-13T08:29:33  <CodeShark> so it's important to set priorities and figure out what messages are most important to get out...and to just accept that there will be some noise no matter what
185 2017-09-13T08:30:03  <CodeShark> but I'm willing to do what I can to help improve this
186 2017-09-13T08:31:04  <CodeShark> most of the technical inaccuracies people lob around ultimately don't really have much of an impact because they aren't the ones actually working on the code
187 2017-09-13T08:31:52  <CodeShark> but there are some high level narratives that are key - such as the notion that changing consensus rules is inherently hard, incompatibilities that partition the network lead to chain splits, etc...
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189 2017-09-13T08:34:13  <CodeShark> whether we use BIP8 or BIP9 or something else isn't nearly as important - although I do think it's important that users feel empowered to resist hostile miners
190 2017-09-13T08:34:42  <CodeShark> and that deterrents exist against hostile miners
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194 2017-09-13T08:55:49  <gmaxwell> absolutely, but saying that we would not use BIP9 again is an error. I expect we would with an explicit stated outright plan to BIP8 after if user adoption was very strong but miners did not activate.  These are technical details, sure.  But unfortunately what got quoted was that BIP9 wouldn't be used again.
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197 2017-09-13T09:15:10  <CodeShark> things can always change. I think the overarching goal here is to convey that users choose consensus rules, not miners. and bip9 sends conflicting messages
198 2017-09-13T09:15:34  <CodeShark> but if the situation changes, perhaps bip9 becomes viable again
199 2017-09-13T09:16:48  <CodeShark> I think we all agree that BIP9 for segwit caused some serious problems
200 2017-09-13T09:17:59  <mryandao> why not just run a XMPP bridge?
201 2017-09-13T09:18:13  <gmaxwell> CodeShark: I don't agree.
202 2017-09-13T09:18:55  <gmaxwell> CodeShark: I think people on slack echochambered themself into a corner about that. The obvious thing to do after BIP9 was BIP8, just as part of the process.
203 2017-09-13T09:18:57  *** Anduck_ is now known as Anduck
204 2017-09-13T09:19:41  <gmaxwell> In doing it furthered a conflicting message. BIP9 was never 'miners choose'. It's just an activiation mechenism.
205 2017-09-13T09:19:49  <gmaxwell> And it's still by far the safest one.
206 2017-09-13T09:20:38  <gmaxwell> It can be delayed, but we should have a position that consensus rule changes take non-trivial amounts of time.
207 2017-09-13T09:20:39  <CodeShark> safe as long as miners don't use it to hold a popular upgrade hostage subject to insane shifting demands
208 2017-09-13T09:20:46  <gmaxwell> No. Safe even if they do.
209 2017-09-13T09:21:23  <gmaxwell> Segwit being activated in under a year is really really fast.  It's much faster than major changes happen in widespread internet protocols that don't have consensus implications or the same consequences of failure.
210 2017-09-13T09:21:29  <CodeShark> I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. I believe ceding the narrative and going on the defensive was far riskier.
211 2017-09-13T09:21:45  <gmaxwell> No, I don't think we will. On this point I think my comments are reflecting the shared view of the project.
212 2017-09-13T09:22:00  <gmaxwell> (though obviously I haven't polled everyone for their latest views)
213 2017-09-13T09:22:15  <CodeShark> bip8 would have allowed the nya to dominate headlines
214 2017-09-13T09:22:55  <gmaxwell> Ah, no that isn't my point, my point is that slack communities narative about segwit delays was wrong from the start.
215 2017-09-13T09:23:15  <gmaxwell> NYA wouldn't have even existed if not for BIP149.
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218 2017-09-13T09:23:37  <gmaxwell> We should have just taken a consistent position that delays are normal and expected and if miners won't activate something users near univerally want, too bad.
219 2017-09-13T09:24:03  <gmaxwell> NYA was specifically created to take BIP148's success and turn it into something else.
220 2017-09-13T09:24:39  <gmaxwell> On the plus side, it let us keep a narative high ground of not supporting hasty changes just because we're impatient.
221 2017-09-13T09:24:52  <CodeShark> tried that...but everyone was getting impatient for segwit activation and further revelations regarding some miner motives made status quo intenable
222 2017-09-13T09:25:02  <CodeShark> *untenable
223 2017-09-13T09:25:08  <gmaxwell> that was a direct response to the slack echo chamber.
224 2017-09-13T09:25:28  <CodeShark> I believe a chain split was imminent. We got BCH
225 2017-09-13T09:25:56  <gmaxwell> For example, one of your top contributors (who sent me some very nasty remarks) told me that Bitcoin Core was _never_ going to force a segwit activation and so BIP148 was the _only_ option.
226 2017-09-13T09:26:08  <gmaxwell> Again, a direct response to BIP148 (they even said so in the announcement! :) )
227 2017-09-13T09:26:28  <gmaxwell> If there hadn't been that community schism people wouldn't have been left with any doubt that it would get activated.
228 2017-09-13T09:26:31  <CodeShark> probably the best possible outcome we could have gotten
229 2017-09-13T09:27:35  <gmaxwell> Regardless of hindsight, there has been significant miscommunication and misunderstanding which is avoidable.
230 2017-09-13T09:27:47  <CodeShark> it was mostly about empowering users over miners when it comes to consensus rule changes
231 2017-09-13T09:28:42  <CodeShark> but sure, perhaps we can do better in the future
232 2017-09-13T09:43:48  *** BashCo has quit IRC
233 2017-09-13T09:43:58  *** __Hubert__ has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
234 2017-09-13T09:44:49  *** OdaNobunaga has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
235 2017-09-13T09:50:27  <OdaNobunaga> I've been following the various the "bitcoin core" slack on a daily basis (mostly its various UASF channels) since last March, and I think that there's a lot of amplification going on, but at the same time the most vocal contributors there are well aware that they're an extreme minority and that they can't possibly have everything go their way; I w
236 2017-09-13T09:50:27  <OdaNobunaga> ould say that part of that amplification is kind of self-deprecatory.
237 2017-09-13T09:51:35  <OdaNobunaga> But the I've been surprised to see it being called "the bitcoin core slack" as the discussion there mostly isn't technical, and its biggest contributors aren't core devs
238 2017-09-13T09:52:02  *** d9b4bef9 has quit IRC
239 2017-09-13T09:52:02  <OdaNobunaga> So yeah the slack may have a branding problem
240 2017-09-13T09:53:08  *** d9b4bef9 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
241 2017-09-13T09:53:36  <gmaxwell> I tried before to get it braned as the NotBitcoinCore slack. :)
242 2017-09-13T09:55:04  <OdaNobunaga> I think that if we want the discussion there to remain mostly unmoderated, it will fatally remain troll-heavy, and so devs/sensible people won't use it too much
243 2017-09-13T09:55:09  <gmaxwell> but even absent the branding problem, it still has the problem of splitting the community. :(
244 2017-09-13T09:55:11  <CodeShark> I would like to give a name to the movement that favors the conservative approach to consensus rule changes and general avoidance of incompatibilities unless the technical benefits greatly outweigh the costs...and to distinguish it from the Bitcoin Core FOSS project
245 2017-09-13T09:55:31  <OdaNobunaga> So it can either be a meme echo chamber or a serious place for discussion
246 2017-09-13T09:55:37  <CodeShark> but it's been very hard to do this...and for the time being we were fighting a common enemy
247 2017-09-13T09:55:58  <OdaNobunaga> On the Slack we kind of call that the "user driven" bitcoin (I've seen that being used a few times)
248 2017-09-13T09:56:08  <gmaxwell> OdaNobunaga: IRC has many channels.
249 2017-09-13T09:56:31  <gmaxwell> many of the developers are usually in #bitcoin.
250 2017-09-13T09:57:01  <OdaNobunaga> CodeShark: Yes, there should be a name for this movement, I absolutely agree.
251 2017-09-13T09:57:24  <OdaNobunaga> Perhaps there could be different moderation rules for different channels on the slack
252 2017-09-13T09:58:12  <gmaxwell> please get bitcoin core's name off it before doing anything else with moderation... so tired of being blamed for moderation actions in stuff we have no control over.
253 2017-09-13T09:58:58  <OdaNobunaga> gmaxwell I agree
254 2017-09-13T09:59:41  <gmaxwell> FWIW, I think if someone wants to create new low noise venues the right way isn't with moderation, but invite-only write access.
255 2017-09-13T10:00:24  <gmaxwell> The hysteria about people being blocked comes from a false expectation that they have a prior right to say whatever they want. I have a weakly tested hypothesis that this issue doesn't exist for venue were ability to post isn't automatic.
256 2017-09-13T10:01:00  <CodeShark> gmaxwell: FWIW I vehemently opposed much of the moderation policy that took place there...but just found ways to work around it. now that segwit is active on mainnet I think we have more options here
257 2017-09-13T10:01:48  <CodeShark> perhaps a rebranding is in order
258 2017-09-13T10:05:21  <gmaxwell> which would still leave us with a split community. Why is it that you don't see this as a problem
259 2017-09-13T10:05:45  <CodeShark> depends on how it's done
260 2017-09-13T10:07:16  *** BashCo has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
261 2017-09-13T10:08:07  <CodeShark> I see the Bitcoin Core software project as part of a wider movement
262 2017-09-13T10:08:46  <gmaxwell> one which you seem to be interested in usurping by using our name, to be blunt.
263 2017-09-13T10:08:58  <CodeShark> not at all
264 2017-09-13T10:09:04  <gmaxwell> That how its playing out.
265 2017-09-13T10:09:53  <OdaNobunaga> I agree with gmaxwell, it's hard to see what the slack has to do with bitcoin core
266 2017-09-13T10:10:05  *** tErik_mc has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
267 2017-09-13T10:11:02  *** Aaronvan_ has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
268 2017-09-13T10:11:02  <CodeShark> I have barely been in the slack recently
269 2017-09-13T10:11:17  <gmaxwell> In one week in 2011 the dev channel here had 191 distinct after talkers, last week it had 52.  There is a direct decline in participation by different parties on IRC correlated with the introduction of the slack.
270 2017-09-13T10:11:27  *** AaronvanW has quit IRC
271 2017-09-13T10:12:00  <gmaxwell> (I just picked the first week in the top of one of my 2011 logs)
272 2017-09-13T10:12:02  <OdaNobunaga> CodeShark: Perhaps we should come up with a word to refer to the "decentralisation first"/user-driven/cypherpunk movement within bitcoin, and rename the slack after it
273 2017-09-13T10:12:05  *** AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
274 2017-09-13T10:12:06  <CodeShark> gmaxwell: I think it was just a temporary situation
275 2017-09-13T10:12:18  <CodeShark> crisis mode
276 2017-09-13T10:12:38  <gmaxwell> OdaNobunaga: the whole thing is the _fking_ bitcoin project, dude. Bitcoin.
277 2017-09-13T10:12:55  <CodeShark> but not everyone agrees on what Bitcoin is
278 2017-09-13T10:13:04  <gmaxwell> The software project here is the _bitcoin_ project, Bitcoin core is the name of the reference client, it's not the only thing the project does.
279 2017-09-13T10:13:46  *** tErik_mc1 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
280 2017-09-13T10:14:04  <CodeShark> I could have used my company name instead to promote crap - but I wanted to help the Bitcoin Core project. this isn't about me
281 2017-09-13T10:14:10  <gmaxwell> So what you're doing, ape with ak47 style, is setting up a schism between the people working on the system, who've been the same people working it since 2011... and a newer community in a different venue that excludes most of those folks.
282 2017-09-13T10:14:24  <gmaxwell> It's all largely okay now, but it's a bad setup.
283 2017-09-13T10:14:34  <gmaxwell> It's basically asking for gavin like drama squared.
284 2017-09-13T10:15:06  <gmaxwell> You've said that you respected my opinion, but I've raised these concerns many times.
285 2017-09-13T10:15:22  <CodeShark> I would prefer to step back from this role and work on building shit
286 2017-09-13T10:15:27  *** Aaronvan_ has quit IRC
287 2017-09-13T10:15:35  <CodeShark> but until I stepped into it, we had people like roger dictating narrative
288 2017-09-13T10:16:00  *** tErik_mc has quit IRC
289 2017-09-13T10:16:22  <gmaxwell> This seems to be unrelated to my comments.
290 2017-09-13T10:16:36  <CodeShark> not sure I understand your critique
291 2017-09-13T10:17:20  <gmaxwell> It isn't a complaint about you, it's a complaint about the split community and the insistance on keeping it.
292 2017-09-13T10:17:43  *** belcher has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
293 2017-09-13T10:18:48  <CodeShark> ideally we could separate implementation from consensus rules from the sociopolitical movement
294 2017-09-13T10:19:06  <gmaxwell> lets imagine for a moment that roger ver ran that slack... and wasn't, so far, doing anything with it... just letting it be.  Would you not be concerned that _the_ meeting place for all those people was in his hands?
295 2017-09-13T10:19:15  <CodeShark> for better or worse, it all sort of concentrated around the Bitcoin Core project because that's where the best protocol experts were
296 2017-09-13T10:19:38  <gmaxwell> CodeShark: yea great, so you're basically trying to setup the "sociopolitical movement" that doesn't include its longest standing members.
297 2017-09-13T10:19:49  <CodeShark> no, far from that
298 2017-09-13T10:20:13  <gmaxwell> As far as I am concerned: It is the _bitcoin project_.  As far as I am concerned there is no bitcoin core project. Bitcoin Core is a piece of software.
299 2017-09-13T10:20:32  <CodeShark> the higher the stakes, the more people will try to divide us
300 2017-09-13T10:20:58  <gmaxwell> ... why would they have to, 'we' seem to be dividing ourselves just fine, and you seem to be insisting on preserving the divide.
301 2017-09-13T10:21:07  <CodeShark> how?
302 2017-09-13T10:21:13  <gmaxwell> "ideally we could separate"
303 2017-09-13T10:21:27  <CodeShark> but we can't get everyone to agree on everything
304 2017-09-13T10:21:37  <CodeShark> the best we can do is get them to agree on some basic stuff
305 2017-09-13T10:21:43  <CodeShark> and that's even asking for a lot
306 2017-09-13T10:22:15  <gmaxwell> That doesn't have anything to do with getting rid of the split community venues or not.
307 2017-09-13T10:22:31  <CodeShark> trying to force people to stick together even if they disagree is unhealthy, IMHO
308 2017-09-13T10:23:11  <CodeShark> there are different economic interests, different visions, different understandings (and there's also a lot of FUD)
309 2017-09-13T10:24:03  <CodeShark> about the best option we had to keep the network together is to help promote the Bitcoin Core project since it is by far the most responsible and most reliable when it comes to avoiding consensus failures
310 2017-09-13T10:24:16  <gmaxwell> So you are trying to say that the slack disagrees with the community here and most of the people actually writing the software and supporting it all these years?
311 2017-09-13T10:24:47  <CodeShark> most of the disagreements are ultimately immaterial, IMHO - there's a strong alliance in terms of overall general vision and philosophy
312 2017-09-13T10:24:48  *** alreadylate has quit IRC
313 2017-09-13T10:25:01  <CodeShark> perhaps the branding is still an issue
314 2017-09-13T10:26:06  *** alreadylate has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
315 2017-09-13T10:27:16  <OdaNobunaga> During last spring and summer the mood on the slack was "Core is too soft", "merge UASF already", but overall they support the vision of core devs
316 2017-09-13T10:27:35  <gmaxwell> Who knows if they do.
317 2017-09-13T10:28:07  <gmaxwell> Since the communication isn't actually there.
318 2017-09-13T10:28:48  <CodeShark> I think I've had good communications with many of the people who have been in the Slack
319 2017-09-13T10:28:50  <OdaNobunaga> If we're talking public relations and community mood, it's what's being said publicly that matters
320 2017-09-13T10:28:54  <CodeShark> and I agree with OdaNobunaga's assessment
321 2017-09-13T10:29:08  <gmaxwell> CodeShark: yes with _YOU_.  You whom we were already criticizing for being a bit disconnected!
322 2017-09-13T10:29:21  <CodeShark> you know how to get a hold of me
323 2017-09-13T10:29:30  <gmaxwell> I know how to speak to a brick wall too.
324 2017-09-13T10:29:50  <gmaxwell> Both currently appear to be acomplishing about equal amounts.
325 2017-09-13T10:30:46  <CodeShark> I'll be totally blunt here - I deeply respect your domain knowledge and breadth of understanding and have learned tremendously from you...but I also strongly disagree with the public relations strategy the Bitcoin Core project had a couple years ago
326 2017-09-13T10:30:57  <gmaxwell> OdaNobunaga: point there being that they might not have actually been saying those things if they would like, you know, actually talk to people.  I recently had a long conversation with someone who has mostly been on slack for the past couple months and there was a lot of mutual surprise at what people were thinking.
327 2017-09-13T10:31:24  <gmaxwell> CodeShark: if you "strongly disagree" then you have no business using our name and speaking for it.
328 2017-09-13T10:31:36  <gmaxwell> That is just dishonest.
329 2017-09-13T10:31:42  <CodeShark> I always say I'm speaking for myself
330 2017-09-13T10:31:49  <CodeShark> when it comes to controversial issues
331 2017-09-13T10:32:35  <CodeShark> and I always try to give credit to all the top contributors as best as I can
332 2017-09-13T10:33:47  <CodeShark> I have invested FAR more of my time promoting Bitcoin Core than Ciphrex in the last two years
333 2017-09-13T10:33:58  <CodeShark> and get paid nothing for it
334 2017-09-13T10:34:31  <CodeShark> using the name was because otherwise what am I promoting? for better or worse, the Bitcoin Core project was where the greatest protocol expertise was concentrated
335 2017-09-13T10:35:09  <OdaNobunaga> Regarding the "will Core use BIP9 again" thing, I agree there's a huge disconnect between what the community (on slack and to a lesser extent reddit) thinks of what core will do (never do it again) vs. your idea of using BIP9 with BIP8 as fallback
336 2017-09-13T10:35:32  <CodeShark> perhaps BIP9 will be used again - but for now, BIP9 feels very demoralizing to many users
337 2017-09-13T10:35:52  *** JackH has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
338 2017-09-13T10:35:52  <CodeShark> it makes them feel powerless against hostile miners
339 2017-09-13T10:35:54  <OdaNobunaga> So yeah there's not a very good communication between core and the venues on this issue (and other protocol level issues)
340 2017-09-13T10:36:24  <CodeShark> the technical details of activation mechanisms took a back seat to giving users more of a voice
341 2017-09-13T10:36:32  <gmaxwell> CodeShark: your uncoordinated comments on that will _directly_ goof up efforts to do otherwise.  Instead of having a consistent, empowering, position, we're now forced into a mess.
342 2017-09-13T10:36:43  <CodeShark> howso?
343 2017-09-13T10:37:53  <gmaxwell> Says one thing, does another-- which will drive the headline; rather than the message of the complete arc which is user empowering. It'll just be "core backs down and does BIP9 anyways".
344 2017-09-13T10:38:34  *** seone has quit IRC
345 2017-09-13T10:38:43  <CodeShark> actively alienating people doesn't help either, gmaxwell
346 2017-09-13T10:39:18  <gmaxwell> Splitting the community does exactly that!
347 2017-09-13T10:39:18  <CodeShark> especially people who have proven helpful, even if they don't always agree on everything or even understand everything
348 2017-09-13T10:39:41  <CodeShark> it wasn't me who split the community
349 2017-09-13T10:39:49  <CodeShark> I did everything I could to help heal it
350 2017-09-13T10:40:01  <CodeShark> including traveling around the entire world at my own expense to talk to all the major players
351 2017-09-13T10:40:11  <OdaNobunaga> I think it would be great to have a way of following core devs's discussions regarding protocol changes, like the table that listed devs' opinions regarding BIP148, 149, segwit2x etc.
352 2017-09-13T10:40:13  <gmaxwell> what.. no you're confused about what I meant there.
353 2017-09-13T10:40:44  <gmaxwell> By splitting the community I mean creating a parallel and seperate Bitcoin Core chat community and directing traffic there instead of where the actual bitcoin project people are.
354 2017-09-13T10:40:53  <gmaxwell> Thats the split I'm referring to.
355 2017-09-13T10:41:15  <CodeShark> I think drak is the one you need to talk to ;)
356 2017-09-13T10:41:16  <gmaxwell> It results in not having a consistent and widely understood set of expectations about how things progress.
357 2017-09-13T10:41:42  <gmaxwell> You're the one that showed up here vigorously arguing not to fix it, which is why it's you I'm arguing with. Not otherwise!
358 2017-09-13T10:41:55  <CodeShark> I'm just a guest like anyone else on the Core slack
359 2017-09-13T10:42:04  <gmaxwell> OdaNobunaga: Tables don't replace actually talking to each other.
360 2017-09-13T10:42:06  <gmaxwell> :)
361 2017-09-13T10:42:08  <CodeShark> I have no moderator privileges, do not administer it in any way
362 2017-09-13T10:42:21  <gmaxwell> OdaNobunaga: you don't learn that people are in no way timid from a table. :)
363 2017-09-13T10:42:36  <OdaNobunaga> Yeha I'm thinking more of a kind of wiki of devs' opinions and debates than a table
364 2017-09-13T10:42:55  <gmaxwell> OdaNobunaga: well the debates are mostly on IRC, you're welcome to also join them! :)
365 2017-09-13T10:42:57  <OdaNobunaga> Perhaps I could work on something like that
366 2017-09-13T10:44:02  <OdaNobunaga> Yes of course, but even the enlightened hodler would probably want something more simple and less time consuming than following the debates, perhaps we need a layer of vulgarisation and popularisation between these debates and the general public
367 2017-09-13T10:44:26  <gmaxwell> OdaNobunaga: absolutely. well in theory thats what industry press is supposed to do.
368 2017-09-13T10:45:29  <OdaNobunaga> Yeah but I think it's too low granularity and doesn't transcribe nuances well
369 2017-09-13T10:45:41  <CodeShark> there are very few good journalists out there - they usually go with whatever story they are first presented with and don't do much research
370 2017-09-13T10:45:49  <OdaNobunaga> Though I would love to see Bitcoinmagazine doing something like that
371 2017-09-13T10:45:49  *** BashCo_ has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
372 2017-09-13T10:45:58  <CodeShark> it takes a proactive approach to make sure they use good sources
373 2017-09-13T10:46:14  <gmaxwell> CodeShark: I'm not trying to show any lack of thanks for your help;  But I am very concerned with the ongoing splitting and isolation created by having this core slack with few people active in core around it. That isn't your doing, but you started the conversation defending it... so thats the only reason I'm arguing with you about it.
374 2017-09-13T10:46:49  *** Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
375 2017-09-13T10:48:17  <gmaxwell> CodeShark: sorry if I made you feel unappricated. But your comments also did the same to me; e.g. not showing understanding of my concern, and seemingly being okay with isolating the "sociopolitical movement" from me, because apparently I'm guilty of the crime of being a bit fluent in software. :)
376 2017-09-13T10:48:27  *** BashCo has quit IRC
377 2017-09-13T10:48:32  <CodeShark> I think it's good for there to be forums where people can discuss stuff that isn't necessarily deep down in the code and can congregate for the sense of feeling as part of a larger community
378 2017-09-13T10:48:49  <CodeShark> or if not good, at least a necessary part of the human condition
379 2017-09-13T10:48:57  <CodeShark> and fighting against this is fighting against human nature
380 2017-09-13T10:49:03  *** OdaNobunaga has quit IRC
381 2017-09-13T10:49:08  <gmaxwell> Good thing I never said anything of the sort!
382 2017-09-13T10:49:51  <gmaxwell> There are dozens of non-technical bitcoin channels on IRC-- ones that also get participation from many of the longest standing bitcoin users and technical contributors too.
383 2017-09-13T10:51:28  <gmaxwell> My interest in Bitcoin is primarily political, the same is true for (I assume) most of the technical contributors.
384 2017-09-13T10:52:45  <gmaxwell> The greatest insult rbtc uses against me is "You're a great coder."
385 2017-09-13T10:55:01  *** goatpig has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
386 2017-09-13T10:55:14  <CodeShark> I'm not trying to say you should only focus on code. on the contrary, I think you're a great source of inspiration to the movement when you do things like give public talks or write good blog posts
387 2017-09-13T10:55:22  <midnightmagic> God I hate reading that one..
388 2017-09-13T10:56:01  <CodeShark> I think you should write more blog posts and give more talks and do more videos and interviews and argue less on reddit ;)
389 2017-09-13T10:56:03  <gmaxwell> Too bad hundreds of people never get to talk to me because they've been siphoned off into a Bitcoin Core chat group that I'm not in.
390 2017-09-13T10:56:54  * midnightmagic randomly hugs everybody
391 2017-09-13T10:57:15  <CodeShark> gmaxwell: you chose not to participate in that slack group
392 2017-09-13T10:57:36  <gmaxwell> I choose to not screw over my community by personally contributing to the split!
393 2017-09-13T10:58:16  <midnightmagic> Each individual, non-correlatable channel of communication divides attention from the others. :-( I would argue it's not much of a choice anyway due to the security implications in Slack.
394 2017-09-13T10:58:46  <midnightmagic> *gently and with good cheer argue
395 2017-09-13T10:58:59  *** intcat has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
396 2017-09-13T10:59:35  <CodeShark> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHHitXxH-us
397 2017-09-13T11:00:17  <intcat> gmaxwell: nobody is preventing you from joining the slack, you can even do it with an irc client ;)
398 2017-09-13T11:00:35  <gmaxwell> 03:57:35 < gmaxwell> I choose to not screw over my community by personally contributing to the split!
399 2017-09-13T11:01:42  <intcat> meanwhile people like me who prefer connecting to irc over tor so as to not expose IP to anyone lurking in bitcoin-related channels and suffering frequent disconnects as a result cant unfortunately follow all discussion here
400 2017-09-13T11:01:49  <gmaxwell> And trying to move everyone there wouldn't be realistic or wise, because web chat is really hated by many people; and because it's a commercial platform with an unknown lifetime, which might well just decide to sell that slack to ver tomorrow for all we know, and all the other assorted issues.
401 2017-09-13T11:02:35  <gmaxwell> intcat: you can plumb your tor circuts through more reliable nodes to reduce that problem FWIW.
402 2017-09-13T11:03:43  <gmaxwell> I've generally found that in most interesting channels there is far too much volume to read the backscroll in any case, you can just read the last bit and get linked things as needed.
403 2017-09-13T11:10:38  <midnightmagic> intcat: The IRC bridge fails to post updates to comments. At best, it is a dim and opaque link into the slack chat.
404 2017-09-13T11:12:14  <intcat> midnightmagic: i suppose... if the argument is about being excluded from conversations its better than nothing though
405 2017-09-13T11:12:19  <midnightmagic> intcat: There are ways of achieving reliability over Tor but your latency suffers a lot. :-(
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414 2017-09-13T11:42:24  * esotericnonsense feels like this isn't an issue unique to the current situation, there must be other examples of where slack has reduced participation by developers
415 2017-09-13T11:44:38  <esotericnonsense> you would see similar effects if you had say a reddit /r/bitcoincoredev group vs. a mailing list or a usenet group, i personally just don't feel it lends itself as readily to constructive discussion
416 2017-09-13T11:45:09  <esotericnonsense> not because of the audience, more the sort of 'social norms' that evolve as a result of the interface itself
417 2017-09-13T11:45:56  <molz> gmaxwell, the Core slack has bridges to this channel and #bitcoin-dev, many people on the slack read these channels and more informed of what's going on with the development than you know, and if not for the slack, these people would never join IRC or know what's going on with the bitcoin development
418 2017-09-13T11:47:49  <esotericnonsense> why are the ircc bridges are omnidirectional? is it a restriction in slack itself or was that chosen?
419 2017-09-13T11:47:58  <esotericnonsense> argh. why are the irc bridges omnidirectional*
420 2017-09-13T11:48:52  *** newbold has quit IRC
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422 2017-09-13T11:50:56  <gmaxwell> molz: that kind of thing doesn't work, there are incredible misconceptions that come from just not talking.   As far as never find it... http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=bitcoin works pretty well for public chat.
423 2017-09-13T11:51:36  <gmaxwell> molz: and clearly they often _don't_ know whats going on, since getting glimpses of a highly technical channel, just isn't the same as joining people for casual chat.
424 2017-09-13T11:52:44  <molz> gmaxwell, what would you suggest? you want to close the core slack and force everyone to join IRC? the only channel they can talk is #bitcoin but even that channel is not for everything one can discuss
425 2017-09-13T11:53:40  *** Aaronvan_ is now known as AaronvanW
426 2017-09-13T11:54:18  <gmaxwell> molz: there are lots of channels, and people can create more.  As far as what I suggest, I don't know, thats why it's a discussion-- but I think the current situation is double plus ungood.
427 2017-09-13T11:54:59  *** lari has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
428 2017-09-13T11:56:28  <molz> gmaxwell, i'm a long time IRC fan, and i can appreciate what IRC can do, i still suggest people to seek tech help on IRC if no one can help them on the slack, but there's one thing i've noticed: not many people like being on IRC with just tech
429 2017-09-13T11:56:52  <molz> s/tech/text
430 2017-09-13T12:13:44  *** OdaNobunaga has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
431 2017-09-13T12:21:56  *** OdaNobunaga has quit IRC
432 2017-09-13T12:26:53  <Chicago> Excuse my cynicism, but I look at Slack the same way as systemd.  They both fit a need for some people but are being overwhelmingly adopted and pushed out to the masses as the one true way, needlessly.  No doubt if you want to capture new eyeballs, its hard to avoid Slack -- but if people are taught how to use an IRC client, they tend to use it rather than the freenode webchat interface.
433 2017-09-13T12:31:37  <meshcollider> fwiw I agree with gmaxwell, and I appreciate the newspeak reference ;)
434 2017-09-13T12:33:05  <meshcollider> esotericnonsense: do you mean unidirectional?
435 2017-09-13T12:35:43  *** dabura667 has quit IRC
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437 2017-09-13T12:55:07  *** BashCo_ has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
438 2017-09-13T12:56:44  <BashCo_> Okay I've read the past several hours of scrollback, minus some missing chunks due to flaky internet and IRC's inherent lack of persistent messaging. Despite this, I'd like to share my opinion on the matter of disjointed yet supportive communities on separate platforms. I'll preface this by saying I'm more active on Slack than on IRC.
439 2017-09-13T12:56:50  <BashCo_> The 'Core' entity is bigger than just developers. Thankfully it is filled with a lot of supporters, many of whom find IRC inaccessible and unengaging. They use Slack because it provides a modern interface accessible on various platforms, including mobile.
440 2017-09-13T12:56:54  <BashCo_> Slack offers message persistence without the hassle of an IRC bouncer, and superior media integration. Freenode webchat and desktop clients are woefully inadequate IMHO. Plus the privacy implications of using freenode, which automatically shares your IP address unless you research how to request unaffiliated.
441 2017-09-13T12:56:58  <BashCo_> For end users, Slack provides a better experience hands down. It's not intended primarily for developers, but for community members, although devs are strongly encouraged to pop in every once in a while. I do wish that there was an equivalent FOSS solution.
442 2017-09-13T12:57:03  <BashCo_> https://rocket.chat is pretty comparable to Slack and open source. It would require hosting and maintenance, and we would need to migrate the Slack userbase which is not impossible.
443 2017-09-13T12:57:08  <BashCo_> The reason for the decline in IRC participation is likely because it's seen as an outmoded form of communication. It has its strengths, but they do not outweigh the benefits provided to end users on modern platforms.
444 2017-09-13T12:57:12  <BashCo_> I'm also puzzled by the notion that the Slack channel is bad for the 'Core' brand. Sure there was some some silly dragonsden drama, but most people saw that it was basically fabricated. Dragonsden has actually morphed into a meme that some people are proud to be a part of. Really the channel just provides a better signal-to-noise ratio.
445 2017-09-13T12:57:18  <BashCo_> If you think the Slack is toxic for our community, then I think you're missing out on a lot of great interaction, and that perspective is short-sighted IMO. Furthermore, I don't see any proposed solution beyond attempting to herd 6000 accounts into this dev channel (dev channel, not community channel. topic encourages observation.). Good luck conducting weekly dev meetings with all that noise. Imagine if all of reddit/Twitter ha
446 2017-09-13T12:57:18  <BashCo_> ppened on github/mailinglist.
447 2017-09-13T12:57:23  <BashCo_> Lots of talk about communication problems, but the reality is that Core devs have a massive audience that several devs are not embracing simply because the audience prefers a platform that mets their comfort standards. If Slack has inaccurate information, it's partly because devs are choosing not to engage with that audience. Go to the audience.
448 2017-09-13T12:57:38  <BashCo_> The 'split communities' (IRC/Slack/Twitter/reddit/etc) are a simple reality that we have to come to terms with. Maybe it's unfortunate that 'Core' is in the Slack team name, but plain 'Bitcoin' is apparently being squatted. Even that would not solve anything since most people will still prefer Slack over IRC. /sorryforflood
449 2017-09-13T12:57:58  *** BashCo has quit IRC
450 2017-09-13T12:59:47  <pigeons> I don't buy the non-technical users don't like irc thing, look at DALnet
451 2017-09-13T13:02:01  <Chicago> ... and the minute an IRC based community capitulates to Slack, along will come the Slack killer and a new platform with another closed system and closed protocol will demand your participation.
452 2017-09-13T13:05:12  <BashCo_> I'm reasonably technical and I explained that Slack is superior in ways that are appealing to end users. The proprietary nature is unfortunate, hence my rocket.chat suggestion.
453 2017-09-13T13:18:35  *** Guyver2 has quit IRC
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463 2017-09-13T13:29:30  *** drizztbsd is now known as timothy
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465 2017-09-13T13:33:19  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sdaftuar opened pull request #11319: [qa] Fix error introduced into p2p-segwit.py, and prevent future similar errors (master...2017-09-fix-p2p-segwit) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11319
466 2017-09-13T13:40:34  *** sontol has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
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469 2017-09-13T13:46:22  <sontol> sorry to disturb you all
470 2017-09-13T13:46:43  *** wxxs has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
471 2017-09-13T13:46:43  <sontol> but I feel the need to defend Eric
472 2017-09-13T13:47:20  <sontol> (ironically I never used the slack, I just happen to see the convo in time)
473 2017-09-13T13:47:37  <sontol> I think it is really important to educate people on the hard facts
474 2017-09-13T13:47:44  <sontol> Even if that will result in something that you don't plan for (e.g BIP148)
475 2017-09-13T13:48:03  <sontol> gmaxwell: please don't act as if you're innocent in this case
476 2017-09-13T13:48:11  <sontol> had you kept mum about ASICBOOST and propose BIP149-like activation proposal animosity towards Bitmain won't go through the roof
477 2017-09-13T13:48:20  <sontol> and people would be calmer
478 2017-09-13T13:48:33  <sontol> I'd also appreciate it if the current contributors stop pulling the age card (I've been doing this longer than you so my opinion carries more weight)
479 2017-09-13T13:48:45  <sontol> That's the same trick that was pulled by Gavin's supporters
480 2017-09-13T13:48:58  <sontol> I'd worry that this same trick would be used against let's say Alex Morcos (sorry to use your name, just an example)
481 2017-09-13T13:49:07  <midnightmagic> not the best place for it, dude.
482 2017-09-13T13:49:19  <MarcoFalke> I feel like this conversation should be held in another place
483 2017-09-13T13:49:20  <sontol> yeah I know
484 2017-09-13T13:49:28  <sontol> normally I keep mum
485 2017-09-13T13:49:34  <sontol> but since this happen here
486 2017-09-13T13:49:47  <sontol> I feel it is necessary to bring it here
487 2017-09-13T13:49:52  <sontol> I will keep quiet
488 2017-09-13T13:49:55  <sontol> after this
489 2017-09-13T13:50:03  <midnightmagic> He's over in #bitcoin too, last I checked.
490 2017-09-13T13:50:04  * midnightmagic points
491 2017-09-13T13:51:27  *** morcos has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
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494 2017-09-13T13:58:04  *** ryanofsky_ is now known as ryanofsky
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496 2017-09-13T14:04:52  *** morcos has quit IRC
497 2017-09-13T14:07:13  <esotericnonsense> meshcollider: yes, unidirectional. oops :)
498 2017-09-13T14:08:00  *** luke-jr has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
499 2017-09-13T14:10:47  *** morcos has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
500 2017-09-13T14:26:01  *** Aaronvan_ has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
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502 2017-09-13T14:28:09  *** Aaronvan_ is now known as AaronvanW
503 2017-09-13T14:29:48  <achow101> what's holding up 0.15.0 now? release notes?
504 2017-09-13T14:39:18  <MarcoFalke> achow101: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/release-process.md#after-3-or-more-people-have-gitian-built-and-their-results-match
505 2017-09-13T14:39:20  <MarcoFalke> :)
506 2017-09-13T14:39:50  <MarcoFalke> wumpus might still be traveling
507 2017-09-13T14:45:09  *** wxxs_ has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
508 2017-09-13T14:45:33  *** wxxs has quit IRC
509 2017-09-13T14:45:40  *** wxxs_ is now known as wxxs
510 2017-09-13T14:53:39  <achow101> MarcoFalke: ah, I didn't realize wumpus might still be traveling
511 2017-09-13T14:55:24  *** BashCo_ has quit IRC
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520 2017-09-13T15:29:09  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] dooglus opened pull request #11320: Include the wallet name in log messages relating to wallets (master...wallet_name_in_log) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11320
521 2017-09-13T15:37:48  <BlueMatt> BashCo: a large part of what led to the xt issue was people speaking "on behalf of the technical project" saying things that were 180deg from what people who actually contributed to the technical project viewed...148 is an example of what happens in situations like that, many people seem to still think that 148 was somehow connected to or pushed by core contributors, when, in fact, it was pretty much luke and a bunch of people in the
522 2017-09-13T15:37:49  <BlueMatt> "Core Slack" (which is not connected to Core)
523 2017-09-13T15:38:10  <BlueMatt> it is very dangerous for these things to coninute to be needlessly linked
524 2017-09-13T15:38:58  <BlueMatt> and the "splitbrain community" issues greg raised are also critical here - as the Bitcoin community grows Bitcoin becomes harder to change, and thats good, but it should not do so needlessly simply because parts of the community do not sufficiently communicate with other parts
525 2017-09-13T15:39:47  <BlueMatt> while I understand the migration from Reddit and IRC to some extent, pushing folks towards Slack has, in large part, simply added yet another disconnected venue for Bitcoin discussion, creating yet another fork of the community whcih does not sufficiently communicate with other parts
526 2017-09-13T15:43:07  <achow101> BlueMatt: I think that a lot of people on slack wouldn't be engaged in the community otherwise. I think many users find slack to be more user friendly than IRC with more features that they want to use (e.g. ability to post images)
527 2017-09-13T15:43:35  <achow101> s/the community/any bitcoin related discussion community/
528 2017-09-13T15:43:54  <BlueMatt> yes, there is a tradeoff to be made here
529 2017-09-13T15:44:23  *** OdaNobunaga has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
530 2017-09-13T15:45:04  <BlueMatt> I absolutely agree there is some value in it, but some active steps should be taken to a) make clear this is not somehow a community related to bitcoin core (the technical project) and b) try to enforce lack of splitbrain
531 2017-09-13T15:45:18  <BlueMatt> I dont know what all the steps are for b, but its something we should be cautiously aware of and try to address
532 2017-09-13T15:46:00  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] mess110 closed pull request #11314: [tests] Add abortrescan RPC test (master...add-abortrescan-rpc-test) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11314
533 2017-09-13T15:46:47  <achow101> It's hard to avoid splitbrain when there are multiple distinct communities
534 2017-09-13T15:47:49  *** GAit has quit IRC
535 2017-09-13T15:48:10  <OdaNobunaga> It's been suggested (today on the slack) to rebrand the slack into something not connected to core, for example "bitcoincommunity" or something like that (the bitcoin subdomain of slack is already taken)
536 2017-09-13T15:48:47  *** GAit has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
537 2017-09-13T15:50:41  <BashCo> Before saying the Slack isn't connected to Core, we would need to define the Core entity. It's often said that Core as an entity has indistinct boundaries by design. By saying Slack is not 'connected' to Core, you're defining a hard boundary which happens to exclude thousands of people.
538 2017-09-13T15:50:44  <luke-jr> BlueMatt: more Core developers supported 148 than opposed it
539 2017-09-13T15:51:20  <luke-jr> (but more importantly, it shouldn't matter)
540 2017-09-13T15:51:39  <luke-jr> BashCo: Core isn't an entity at all
541 2017-09-13T15:52:02  <luke-jr> it's code
542 2017-09-13T15:52:11  <BashCo> I understand Core was in a tight spot re BIP148. People said it had to come from the users, and it did. Thankfully it was a great success.
543 2017-09-13T15:54:18  <BashCo> luke-jr: you're referring to the codebase. I think Core is more than that. Core also includes email contributions and community support.
544 2017-09-13T15:56:34  <BashCo> If Slack isn't connected to Core, I wonder if anyone will spearhead a robust rocket.chat server as an 'official' Core community, or if devs really expect their supporters to just lurk on IRC.
545 2017-09-13T15:56:36  <luke-jr> BashCo: I don't agree. The latter is simply the Bitcoin community.
546 2017-09-13T15:57:08  *** arubi has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
547 2017-09-13T15:58:59  <BashCo> yeah fair enough. The Bitcoin community also has ambiguously defined boundaries. Lucky for Core, a large contingent of those communities support Core. That's why I think it's short sighted to pressure those communities to disband in favor of inferior platforms.
548 2017-09-13T15:59:52  <luke-jr> I don't agree IRC is inferior ;)
549 2017-09-13T15:59:57  <BashCo> Instead, I think those who are 'connected to Core' should go to their audience and engage directly.
550 2017-09-13T16:01:16  <BashCo> I know, and I understand why many here agree with you. But the fact remains that there are too many disadvantages for most users who are otherwise quite happy on their platform of choice.
551 2017-09-13T16:01:28  <OdaNobunaga> Slack is much better than IRC if you want to engage with an audience of mostly non-technical/not-so-technical people
552 2017-09-13T16:03:21  <BashCo> Keep in mind that a lot of people within the community try to avoid participating on Github, mailing lists, and core-dev because they're viewed as developer sanctuaries. Not a place for memes, emojis and lame jokes with friends.
553 2017-09-13T16:05:44  <esotericnonsense> i agree with luke on the boundary. it seems rather odd to me. i'm not sure that watercooler chat needs to be 'officially sanctioned'
554 2017-09-13T16:06:58  *** RubenSomsen has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
555 2017-09-13T16:07:01  *** laurentmt has quit IRC
556 2017-09-13T16:07:13  <BashCo> can a non-entity officially sanction anything?
557 2017-09-13T16:07:26  *** Giszmo has quit IRC
558 2017-09-13T16:08:10  <esotericnonsense> i'm struggling to find accurate wording here
559 2017-09-13T16:08:26  *** meshcollider has quit IRC
560 2017-09-13T16:09:15  <harding> It seems to me that the desire is not to drive all users to the same interactive communication platform, but rather for all developers to communicate with each other (and users) from the same platform to ensure the opinions expressed there are represenative of the whole project (including disagreements, nuances, and other important details).
561 2017-09-13T16:09:30  <esotericnonsense> yes, indeed
562 2017-09-13T16:09:32  *** Dizzle has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
563 2017-09-13T16:10:29  <esotericnonsense> the problem seems to be that slack naturally attracts more casual users and irc naturally attracts development (with overlap of course). this doesn't seem surprising to me, it matches what I see in other communities
564 2017-09-13T16:11:44  <esotericnonsense> it seems to me that outreach from one group to the other has to be deliberate and won't happen accidentally simply as a result of that
565 2017-09-13T16:13:19  <esotericnonsense> in particular dev work benefits from a reduction in noise, irc can be distracting enough as it is!
566 2017-09-13T16:13:31  <BashCo> So how to bridge that divide? Devs have opportunities to write blogs, reddit posts, podcast interviews, schmooze in Slack and get down to business in IRC. But some devs shy away from those avenues for understandable reasons.
567 2017-09-13T16:14:37  <BashCo> I guess my point is that those connected to Core can bring their voice to disjointed communities through various means.
568 2017-09-13T16:15:44  <chainhead> Rename it to Core Community slack
569 2017-09-13T16:17:37  *** luke-jr has quit IRC
570 2017-09-13T16:18:22  <harding> BashCo: isn't that treating the symptom, when the problem is the disjointed communities in the first place?  I believe the argument here, which I agree with, is that communication is going from users <-> some devs <-> rest of the devs, where it should really be going from users <-> all devs.
571 2017-09-13T16:18:26  <BashCo> gmaxwell's meetup vid covering 0.15 was really popular. a 'sunday talk show' circuit covering various bitcoin media outlets could get a great response, but I understand it has the negative effect of placing devs on pedestals and creating PR spokesmen.
572 2017-09-13T16:18:54  <esotericnonsense> i agree with harding. there's always going to be a reduction in information transfer that way.
573 2017-09-13T16:18:57  *** laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
574 2017-09-13T16:19:24  <esotericnonsense> i suppose my personal view is that if you are interested and want to know about something, the onus is on you to find the relevant channels and use them, if they'
575 2017-09-13T16:19:49  <esotericnonsense> if they're actually inaccessible (work going on behind closed doors) that is a different matter entirely, but i'm not seeing that
576 2017-09-13T16:20:04  <BashCo> harding: I don't know how to get all redditors, Tweeters, Slackers, bloggers, etc to a single platform, so I'm treating that problem as incurable.
577 2017-09-13T16:20:29  *** Chris_Stewart_5 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
578 2017-09-13T16:20:48  <MarcoFalke> Indeed, and some devs prefer not to, as well
579 2017-09-13T16:20:49  <harding> BashCo: as I said above, I think the desire is not to get all Bitcoin users on the same platform; merely to get all developers on the same platform.
580 2017-09-13T16:21:29  <harding> That way there's a single source of reference for communication with the project.
581 2017-09-13T16:21:45  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/96ac26e56627...8df48b36ed32
582 2017-09-13T16:21:46  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fadd0c1 MarcoFalke: [qa] zapwallettxes: Wait up to 3s for mempool reload
583 2017-09-13T16:21:46  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 8df48b3 MarcoFalke: Merge #11308: [qa] zapwallettxes: Wait up to 3s for mempool reload...
584 2017-09-13T16:21:50  <harding> interactive communication *
585 2017-09-13T16:22:31  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #11308: [qa] zapwallettxes: Wait up to 3s for mempool reload (master...Mf1709-qaZap3s) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11308
586 2017-09-13T16:23:04  <BashCo> esotericnonsense: on the other hand, if you're displeased with your supporters, the onus is on you to seek them out and educate them. Besides, it's not so much that they want to chat with devs, but to chat with fellow supporters.
587 2017-09-13T16:23:54  <MarcoFalke> harding: I don't think there should be a "single source of reference for communication"
588 2017-09-13T16:24:07  *** laurentmt has quit IRC
589 2017-09-13T16:24:15  <MarcoFalke> some devs might prefer not to communicate with users or communicate with them by other means
590 2017-09-13T16:24:25  <BashCo> harding: I think it's up to those connected with the Core non-entity to find a way to amplify their message across all platforms.
591 2017-09-13T16:27:37  <harding> MarcoFalke: is your argument that devs shouldn't be forced to participate on IRC (which I agree with) or that it's bad for there to be a single place (perhaps with multiple channel) where devs do all of their interactive communication?
592 2017-09-13T16:28:39  <MarcoFalke> Both
593 2017-09-13T16:29:48  <harding> BashCo: so he who self-promotes the best represents the project the most?  That doesn't sound desirable to me.
594 2017-09-13T16:32:44  <harding> MarcoFalke: I can't think of a compelling reason why a single congregating point for interactive discussion about the project would be bad.  Could you explain more about why you think that?
595 2017-09-13T16:33:12  *** rockhouse has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
596 2017-09-13T16:33:42  <BashCo> harding: that's the conundrum. there can't be any 'official' Core communities (or spokesmen) which are not sanctioned by the intentionally ambiguous Core non-entity which may or may not have the ability to sanction anything at all.
597 2017-09-13T16:34:40  <chainhead> A single point can't be everything to everyone, it makes sense to have different communications channels to suit different types of audiences
598 2017-09-13T16:35:59  <chainhead> Personally I'm banned from Core Slack but I still think it makes sense to exist, and having a single community would also mean then I would be banned from everywhere
599 2017-09-13T16:36:04  <harding> BashCo: that's an argument about what it is or is not possible to enforce.  I think the important point is about what contributors to the Bitcoin Core project, mainly developers, choose to do regarding interactive communication.
600 2017-09-13T16:37:42  <afk11> harding, it might be a problem if it's touch to connect from your phone..
601 2017-09-13T16:37:48  <afk11> tough*
602 2017-09-13T16:38:35  <MarcoFalke> harding: It would force anyone who wanted to participate to that single place. So contributors to the project who prefer not to "register" with that place are excluded. Also, it gives the impression that dicsussion that happens in other places is consequently unrelated to the project
603 2017-09-13T16:40:17  <BashCo> agreed. my personal opinion is that there are opportunities for developers to do more on that front. But I've seen a lot of reluctance in that regard, primarily because devs don't want to be viewed as spokesmen for the project.
604 2017-09-13T16:41:20  *** OdaNobunaga has quit IRC
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606 2017-09-13T16:45:04  <harding> MarcoFalke: there are no means for enforcement, and likely any contributor who has trouble connecting to IRC in a manner they find suitable need only ask for help and some gracious person will provide it.  Regarding your second point, I think that's an advantage at avoiding having a small group of contributors speak inappropriately for the larger share of contributors.
607 2017-09-13T16:47:34  <harding> BashCo: indeed no one decent wants to be *the* spokesperson for the project, but I think many contributors are comfortable talking about the project when surrounded by other contributors who will correct any inaccuracies.  That's an advantage of having a single point of congregation for interactive communication.
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610 2017-09-13T16:52:38  <esotericnonsense> hm. i think i've managed to dump core by sending an odd RPC request somehow.
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613 2017-09-13T16:54:03  <BashCo> harding: there's a notable personality who expressed interest in hosting as many Core devs as possible on a weekly podcast. I think it was a 5-min interview with one dev (or more) per week. This would allow many contributors to speak about the project without a single spokesperson emerging. I think it's a good opportunity but that recurrent dev participation would be hard to muster.
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616 2017-09-13T16:57:50  <BlueMatt> <luke-jr> BlueMatt: more Core developers supported 148 than opposed it <-- you keep saying that, I'm still far from convinced it is true
617 2017-09-13T16:58:13  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/8df48b36ed32...42973f834445
618 2017-09-13T16:58:14  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 0063d2c John Newbery: [tests] Make p2p-leaktests.py more robust
619 2017-09-13T16:58:14  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 42973f8 MarcoFalke: Merge #11078: [tests] Make p2p-leaktests.py more robust...
620 2017-09-13T16:58:16  <chainhead> It doesn't really matter too much either way
621 2017-09-13T16:58:18  <harding> BashCo: I think I must've made my point poorly, because that's the exact opposite of what I intended to encourage.  Certainly, people who want to do podcasts should feel free to do them, but the current problem isn't too few separate opinions but too many, or rather that individual opinions are being presented outside of the context of general group opinion.
622 2017-09-13T16:58:53  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #11078: [tests] Make p2p-leaktests.py more robust (master...p2p_leaktests_robust) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11078
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625 2017-09-13T17:02:36  <BashCo> then maybe a blog where each dev makes PRs until wumpus merges them, but only after consensus has been reached.
626 2017-09-13T17:04:50  <BashCo> it's difficult to distill the general opinion of a non-entity.
627 2017-09-13T17:04:59  <wxxs> BashCo: how about a decentralized solution with an intermediary layer of volunteer spokesmen, who are good at interacting with users and filtering the noise
628 2017-09-13T17:08:32  <BashCo> wxxs: sounds great to me. a git blog with several spokesmen who can convey and elaborate on that message to various platforms? I don't know if that meets harding's criteria though.
629 2017-09-13T17:15:46  <esotericnonsense> is libevent only used for RPC/rest/torcontrol?
630 2017-09-13T17:16:59  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #10881: trivial: fix various pyflakes/vulture warnings (master...vulture) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10881
631 2017-09-13T17:37:22  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] theuni opened pull request #11323: mininode: add an optimistic write and disable nagle (master...optimistic-mininode) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11323
632 2017-09-13T17:39:12  <cfields_> jnewbery: you may be interested in ^^. I have no clue if that's safe with asyncore.
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635 2017-09-13T17:45:13  <jnewbery> cfields_ : I'll take a look. I wouldn't call myself an asyncore expert (nor do I want to become one - it's pretty strongly deprecated in favour of asyncio), but I can definitely kick the tires.
636 2017-09-13T17:45:14  *** rockhouse has quit IRC
637 2017-09-13T17:46:16  <cfields_> jnewbery: ah, good to know.
638 2017-09-13T17:46:53  *** abpa has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
639 2017-09-13T17:58:40  <MarcoFalke> jnewbery: I'd Concept ACK an pull getting rid of it ;)
640 2017-09-13T17:58:49  <MarcoFalke> s/an/a/g
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643 2017-09-13T18:07:58  <jnewbery> MarcoFalke : I'd love to, but I think we've had enough refactor churn in the test_framework for the time being!
644 2017-09-13T18:08:06  *** atroxes has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
645 2017-09-13T18:08:19  <jnewbery> once everything's settled for a bit I might take a shot at it
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647 2017-09-13T18:12:23  <cfields_> jnewbery: well that PR (which presumably asyncio would nullify) shaves a nice chunk of time off of the tests. So it wouldn't be purely a refactor, at least.
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652 2017-09-13T18:20:27  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/42973f834445...7fcd61b2613c
653 2017-09-13T18:20:27  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 77aa9e5 Wladimir J. van der Laan: test: Check RPC argument mapping...
654 2017-09-13T18:20:28  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 7fcd61b MarcoFalke: Merge #10753: test: Check RPC argument mapping...
655 2017-09-13T18:20:52  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #10753: test: Check RPC argument mapping (master...2017_07_rpc_argument_check) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10753
656 2017-09-13T18:22:04  <jnewbery> cfields_ : yes, sounds good. I was referring to ripping out asyncore and replacing with asyncio as being a bit too churny at this point. Definite concept ACK for any small change that can shave minutes of test runs.
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667 2017-09-13T19:12:49  <BlueMatt> are there any known bugs in 0.15 that -resetguisettings will fix that result in a segfault on startup on linux?
668 2017-09-13T19:12:58  *** RubenSomsen has quit IRC
669 2017-09-13T19:14:19  <achow101> BlueMatt: related to 11117?
670 2017-09-13T19:14:39  <BlueMatt> in 15?
671 2017-09-13T19:15:07  <achow101> sorry, 11171
672 2017-09-13T19:15:24  <BlueMatt> I was under the impression that was windows only?
673 2017-09-13T19:15:52  <achow101> It was experienced on windows, but that does not mean it was limited to that
674 2017-09-13T19:16:09  <achow101> it looks like it could have been a qt issue
675 2017-09-13T19:16:27  <achow101> so possibly affecting all platforms
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681 2017-09-13T19:45:17  <gmaxwell> sdaftuar: I have a suggestion for a bit of a change to how #10200 works. "Pipeline mode".  When CNB is called, it generates a template and then uses your comparison function to decide between a new template and a cached one.  If it uses the cached one, it does not need to perform a TBV at all. It returns the result.  If fees increased at all, It TBVs and caches the new template.
682 2017-09-13T19:45:20  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/10200 | Mining: Skip recent transactions if fee difference is small by sdaftuar · Pull Request #10200 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
683 2017-09-13T19:45:30  <gmaxwell> sdaftuar: so this would serve the dual purpose of getting TBV out of the critical path.
684 2017-09-13T19:46:04  <gmaxwell> On a cold start it could just return the template with new transactions, or it could do what your code currently does if the additional complexity isn't great.
685 2017-09-13T19:46:07  <sdaftuar> gmaxwell: i had some thoughts along those lines as well, but i wasn't sure how to square that with the caching that gbt already does
686 2017-09-13T19:46:18  <sdaftuar> introduce two caches i guess?
687 2017-09-13T19:46:54  <gmaxwell> yes, I think so. That outer cache is just to prevent outside stuff from DOS attacking by accident. It could be made much shorter.
688 2017-09-13T19:48:10  <gmaxwell> I was thinking about this because I'm working on some new block relay stuff where you send a template, then template differentials as it changes, then a template differential to the full block when it eventually shows up. And for that it would be useful if templates were changing less often, and also if the one you were using was a slightly old one.
689 2017-09-13T19:49:05  <gmaxwell> (my motivator is primarily mining off blocksat, but this could eventually make a BIP152 HB mode like transmission smaller and faster too)
690 2017-09-13T19:49:33  <sdaftuar> with the cache approach you're suggesting, you would scrap the time-based logic altogether in addPackageTransactions, is that right?
691 2017-09-13T19:49:53  <sdaftuar> i think the downside to that is that the first template after a block is found might needlessly include recent transactions
692 2017-09-13T19:50:24  <sdaftuar> i kind of thought that the gbt caller could already do the caching that i think you're suggesting
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694 2017-09-13T19:50:52  <gmaxwell> Yes, -- so my thought on that was is that we'd scrap that, however it could be kept for the first one on a cold cache but I am not sure if its worth the code complexity.
695 2017-09-13T19:52:03  <sdaftuar> i think scrapping it is fine, but i also think we could scrap all of this and just suggest that gbt callers do it.  or move it all into gbt...
696 2017-09-13T19:52:16  <sdaftuar> maybe that's the easiest thing
697 2017-09-13T19:52:22  <gmaxwell> sdaftuar: well the gbt caller can't create a new non-TBV template and see if it pays a lot more fees. If you mean the GBT layer caching, it could, but there are often many callers... and that also requires them to be well behaved.
698 2017-09-13T19:52:47  <sdaftuar> oh, i see
699 2017-09-13T19:53:39  <gmaxwell> (I think expecting them to be well behaved is a bad idea, someone will spin up three pool daemons, they'll run in a fairly tight loop and prevent bitcoin from processing blocks, and wonder why they're getting orphan blocks)
700 2017-09-13T19:54:22  <sdaftuar> yeah i never really knew how pool servers worked; allowing randoms to hit your RPC seems like a bad idea!  but good to know if that's what people are doing.
701 2017-09-13T19:54:36  <gmaxwell> but that GBT layer cache could be just a half-second thing, just to cap the number of new templates we construct per second.
702 2017-09-13T19:55:58  <sdaftuar> ok yeah i think your suggestion sounds pretty good -- eliminating TBV except when the fees are enough to warrant an update seems like an easy win here, and mostly accomplishes the other goal as well.
703 2017-09-13T19:56:26  <gmaxwell> For the first output after a block we could also produce an empty template, but I'm really not too keen on that.  But yes, I thought this was a nice way to get two benefits at once.
704 2017-09-13T19:57:41  *** RubenSomsen has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
705 2017-09-13T19:57:54  <sdaftuar> (i am also not keen on the empty template thing)
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707 2017-09-13T19:59:04  <gmaxwell> we could also return a non-TBVed template in that case; which is really 90% of the time, and we'd still catch a bad template and shut down while caching.
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711 2017-09-13T20:09:48  <gmaxwell> not that running TBV in the background will be trivial.
712 2017-09-13T20:19:22  <goatpig> is compressed keys in sw scripts invalid or just non standard?
713 2017-09-13T20:19:27  <goatpig> err uncompressed
714 2017-09-13T20:20:04  <sipa> nonstandard
715 2017-09-13T20:20:10  <goatpig> thanks
716 2017-09-13T20:20:35  *** tErik_mc1 has quit IRC
717 2017-09-13T20:28:25  <BlueMatt> (but dont do it - its likely to become invalid sooner or later)
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720 2017-09-13T20:32:52  <gmaxwell> goatpig: why do you ask?
721 2017-09-13T20:33:40  <goatpig> out of curiosity
722 2017-09-13T20:33:52  <goatpig> hasving some fun on the testnet
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724 2017-09-13T20:36:28  <sipa> testnet also enforces this rule
725 2017-09-13T20:36:42  <goatpig> ive noticed
726 2017-09-13T20:37:37  <sipa> the term 'standardness' has been used for two different things, non-mandatory script validity rules (of which this is one) which can't be disabled, and the actual IsStandard() function (which is only enforced on mainnet)
727 2017-09-13T20:38:50  <goatpig> well i was thinking about it more in the sense of "wont be propagated but can be mined" and "cant be mined"
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738 2017-09-13T21:41:14  <promag> can someone kick travis job https://travis-ci.org/bitcoin/bitcoin/jobs/275096269 ?
739 2017-09-13T21:42:09  <sipa> promag: you can!
740 2017-09-13T21:43:15  <promag> I can?
741 2017-09-13T21:44:00  <sipa> promag: i sent you an invite
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753 2017-09-13T21:59:53  <sipa> can i haz review on #11167 ?
754 2017-09-13T21:59:56  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11167 | Full BIP173 (Bech32) support by sipa · Pull Request #11167 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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