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 46 2017-12-25T02:41:28  <medo> hi i want to be miner
 47 2017-12-25T02:41:33  <medo> ??
 48 2017-12-25T02:42:23  <Randolf> medo:  You should ask in the #bitcoin channel then.
 49 2017-12-25T02:43:05  <medo> yes
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 51 2017-12-25T02:44:49  <medo> can you help me to be a miner please
 52 2017-12-25T02:44:52  <medo> !!
 53 2017-12-25T02:44:52  <gribble> Error: "!" is not a valid command.
 54 2017-12-25T02:45:07  <medo> ?
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 56 2017-12-25T03:00:15  <Randolf> medo:  The topic you're raising is off-topic here.  Please ask in the #bitcoin channel instead.
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 70 2017-12-25T04:17:52  <goatpig> the multi byte op pushdata, are they big or little endian?
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 83 2017-12-25T05:10:18  <achow101> goatpig: little endian
 84 2017-12-25T05:14:49  <goatpig> figured it out, thanks
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126 2017-12-25T09:57:33  <akash_> i am expert in giving suggestion how to stop frauds in bitcoin transaction
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171 2017-12-25T13:24:03  *** ZiNC has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
172 2017-12-25T13:24:09  <ZiNC> Hi.
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175 2017-12-25T13:29:03  *** aguycall_ has quit IRC
176 2017-12-25T13:31:08  <ZiNC> Are there debug symbols available for download?
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191 2017-12-25T14:24:12  <Anant> help
192 2017-12-25T14:24:38  <Anant> how to exchange bitcoin with other coins?
193 2017-12-25T14:25:00  <Anant> earn exchange fees?
194 2017-12-25T14:26:29  <sipa> Anant: #bitcoin
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287 2017-12-25T22:02:29  <LucasMZanella_> Why we must reference the entire txid on a transaction? Could somebody give a feedback on this idea of mine? https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/66464/why-we-must-reference-the-entire-txid-for-each-output-we-want-to-spend
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292 2017-12-25T22:09:58  <goatpig> you are introducing some serious complexity and attack vectors with that kind of approach
293 2017-12-25T22:13:36  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] blockcash opened pull request #12022: test (master...master) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12022
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295 2017-12-25T22:16:31  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sipa closed pull request #12022: test (master...master) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12022
296 2017-12-25T22:18:12  <LucasMZanella_> The only attack I can think of is someone 'mining' a transaction until its txid has the same first digits as another. However there's a minimum number of digits that we can choose that would guarantee a million year of brute forcing
297 2017-12-25T22:19:46  <goatpig> not with segwit
298 2017-12-25T22:20:17  <sipa> LucasMZanella_: you'd need at least 128 bits
299 2017-12-25T22:20:34  <LucasMZanella_> What is different with segwit?
300 2017-12-25T22:20:39  <sipa> otherwise the security of referencing old transactions would be below that of the digital signatures
301 2017-12-25T22:20:49  <goatpig> the outpoint is taking the wtxid instead of the txid
302 2017-12-25T22:20:51  <sipa> so you can probabbly save 16 bytes per txin
303 2017-12-25T22:20:53  <goatpig> the wtxid has no sig in it
304 2017-12-25T22:20:58  <LucasMZanella_> 128 bits is already good, isn't it?
305 2017-12-25T22:20:58  <goatpig> therefor it's easy to "mine" a collision
306 2017-12-25T22:21:06  <sipa> goatpig: no, txid
307 2017-12-25T22:21:35  <goatpig> hmm am i getting confused here?
308 2017-12-25T22:21:38  <sipa> yes
309 2017-12-25T22:21:47  <sipa> wtxid = inclides witness, txid = no witness
310 2017-12-25T22:21:51  <goatpig> oh ok
311 2017-12-25T22:21:55  <goatpig> well anyways
312 2017-12-25T22:22:07  <sipa> it's also irrelevant in this discussion
313 2017-12-25T22:22:10  <goatpig> sw refers to outpoints by the unmalleable id
314 2017-12-25T22:22:31  <goatpig> well it's entirely easier to produce collision the txid than the wtxid
315 2017-12-25T22:22:38  <goatpig> but sure, that's orhtogonal
316 2017-12-25T22:22:44  <sipa> LucasMZanella_: yes, perhaps. it's not worth the effort to change it though
317 2017-12-25T22:23:21  <goatpig> you could construct attacks where you force tons of unnecessary hashing per tx
318 2017-12-25T22:23:34  <sipa> no
319 2017-12-25T22:23:59  <sipa> hmm, nevermind
320 2017-12-25T22:24:05  <sipa> you need collision resistance
321 2017-12-25T22:24:24  <sipa> goatpig: you're right
322 2017-12-25T22:24:50  <goatpig> yeah which has you increase the size of your hash "shortcuts" and kills the size benefit anyways
323 2017-12-25T22:24:51  <sipa> LucasMZanella_: disregard what i said; you really need 256-bit hashes in transactions
324 2017-12-25T22:25:02  <goatpig> while increasing the cost size of low input tx
325 2017-12-25T22:25:05  <LucasMZanella_> How much hashes we need to get a sha256 output to begin with 7 chosen digits?
326 2017-12-25T22:25:13  <goatpig> look at miners
327 2017-12-25T22:25:25  <sipa> LucasMZanella_: for a collision attack you only need half
328 2017-12-25T22:25:48  <LucasMZanella_> Half of what?
329 2017-12-25T22:25:52  <sipa> the attacker may be the one doing the reference, which can refer to a transaction that he did a grinsing on before publishing
330 2017-12-25T22:25:56  <goatpig> birthday attack
331 2017-12-25T22:26:25  <goatpig> well basically you'd mine lots of tx with the starting 7 bytes in the txid
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333 2017-12-25T22:26:32  <goatpig> then create one tx spending like 1000 inputs
334 2017-12-25T22:26:35  <goatpig> however many you get
335 2017-12-25T22:26:46  <goatpig> and use the the first input as your collided hash
336 2017-12-25T22:26:50  <goatpig> forcing tons of hashing for no reason
337 2017-12-25T22:26:59  <sipa> goatpig: it's far worse
338 2017-12-25T22:26:59  <goatpig> then to reproduce the attack
339 2017-12-25T22:27:06  <sipa> you can create a consensus failure
340 2017-12-25T22:27:25  <goatpig> ive thought of that but cant come with an example of that attack on the top of my head
341 2017-12-25T22:27:34  <sipa> by creating two transactions with the same starting bits
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343 2017-12-25T22:27:48  <sipa> and then spending it
344 2017-12-25T22:28:07  <sipa> making sure one is valid and the other is invalid
345 2017-12-25T22:28:26  <goatpig> you mean while unconfirmed?
346 2017-12-25T22:28:34  <sipa> hmm, but the chain provides an ordering of course
347 2017-12-25T22:28:56  <goatpig> his proposal is to basically attach a merkle root in there
348 2017-12-25T22:29:00  <goatpig> with the "shortcuts"
349 2017-12-25T22:29:38  <goatpig> i tihnk that's enough to remain deterministic, therefor avoid consensus failures
350 2017-12-25T22:29:50  <goatpig> but it's easily attackable
351 2017-12-25T22:30:05  <sipa> fair, it's doable in a way that does not cause consensus failure
352 2017-12-25T22:30:28  <goatpig> but there's also the cost of increasing the size of low input tx
353 2017-12-25T22:30:59  <goatpig> i guess you could "modulate" this, have tx version that uses this proposal to cut on large tx
354 2017-12-25T22:31:11  <goatpig> but even then, taht does not reduce the attack vector
355 2017-12-25T22:31:40  <sipa> it's also a terrible hard fork
356 2017-12-25T22:31:59  <goatpig> couldnt you softfork that ala segwit?
357 2017-12-25T22:32:01  <sipa> (as in: not just miners and nodes, but every piece of software will fail without modification)
358 2017-12-25T22:32:04  <sipa> no
359 2017-12-25T22:32:06  <LucasMZanella_> Could be a soft one
360 2017-12-25T22:32:06  <goatpig> i guess you can't pull the segwit trick twice
361 2017-12-25T22:32:21  <sipa> segwit didn't remove any existing structures
362 2017-12-25T22:32:32  <sipa> it just added an optional new ones
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364 2017-12-25T22:32:45  <sipa> truncating txids is not something that fits into that
365 2017-12-25T22:32:56  <goatpig> no but (correct me if im wrong) to a not update node, the marker and flag of a segwit tx makes the tx body invisible to the node
366 2017-12-25T22:33:13  <sipa> you can't remove the txids without breaking things
367 2017-12-25T22:33:18  <LucasMZanella_> Transactions could maintain the structure, but the txid being referenced would be the merkle root. And the 7 digits each would be added inside script
368 2017-12-25T22:33:47  <sipa> goatpig: that's just serialization
369 2017-12-25T22:33:47  <goatpig> at any rate i wouldnt want that kind of change done without a hf
370 2017-12-25T22:33:55  <sipa> i'm not even talking about that
371 2017-12-25T22:34:20  <goatpig> sipa: if you can make the content of the tx invisible to older nodes, you can shove anything you want in there basically
372 2017-12-25T22:34:35  <sipa> then you don't have any transactions left
373 2017-12-25T22:34:45  <sipa> sure, you can move everything to an extension block
374 2017-12-25T22:34:49  <sipa> that's always possible
375 2017-12-25T22:35:01  <sipa> but that doesn't share anything anymore with existing nodes
376 2017-12-25T22:35:18  <sipa> they wouldn't even see the transactions of the new system anymore
377 2017-12-25T22:36:05  <LucasMZanella_> Yeah, the old nodes would invalidate the transaction because txid is nonsense
378 2017-12-25T22:36:26  <goatpig> sipa: a bit too aggressive i guess =D
379 2017-12-25T22:36:31  <sipa> LucasMZanella_: what is the objective?
380 2017-12-25T22:36:45  <goatpig> optimize block space usage im guessing
381 2017-12-25T22:37:01  <sipa> if it's just bandwidth/storage, a new serialization for transaction could be constructed that does what you're saying (and more)
382 2017-12-25T22:37:17  <sipa> but without actually modifying the transactions
383 2017-12-25T22:37:24  <sipa> only changing how they're stored
384 2017-12-25T22:37:39  <sipa> which means that the full txids still count towards the weight limit
385 2017-12-25T22:37:45  <LucasMZanella_> Objective of what? The idea was to be able to spend from lots of txs without having to add one signature + one txid for each. My idea would reduce txid usage in transactions, and schnoor would reduce signature usage
386 2017-12-25T22:37:57  <sipa> but still reclaim disk space and bandwidth
387 2017-12-25T22:38:10  <sipa> in a completely optional and compatible way
388 2017-12-25T22:39:31  <goatpig> in taht spirit, could there be an alley to use block height + tx# instead of hash for old, buried outputs in the future?
389 2017-12-25T22:39:39  <sipa> monero uses a pretty extreme version of what you're suggesting iirc; they refer to previous outputs just using the position in the chain when they were created
390 2017-12-25T22:40:22  <sipa> goatpig: requires a nasty index, unfortunately
391 2017-12-25T22:40:25  <sipa> but yes
392 2017-12-25T22:41:33  <goatpig> sipa: index for what purpose? ordering tx per block height? i mean you konw that height won't change if we're talkign blocks with 100k+ confs
393 2017-12-25T22:41:56  <LucasMZanella_> If you use new addresses everytime someone is going to send you something, then moving a large quantity of your funds is going to take a lot of txids and signatures. Schnoor already condenses signs, my idea was to condense txids
394 2017-12-25T22:42:00  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] janstary opened pull request #12023: update the OpenBSD build guide (master...openbsd) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12023
395 2017-12-25T22:43:27  <LucasMZanella_> I thought this could be done with a soft fork but now I don't know anymore. I guess old nodes would always miss transactions
396 2017-12-25T22:43:42  <LucasMZanella_> as you said :)
397 2017-12-25T22:43:52  <goatpig> LucasMZanella_: you'd have to make the tx body invisible to old nodes
398 2017-12-25T22:43:56  <goatpig> that's too extreme
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400 2017-12-25T22:46:17  <LucasMZanella_> I thought as using an entire txid and add the merkle root + other txids inside the script, but old nodes would not accept txids inside the script
401 2017-12-25T22:46:38  <LucasMZanella_> I guess it can only be done with a hardfork by changing the transaction format version
402 2017-12-25T22:46:56  <goatpig> whichever way you do it, you are introducing computational overhead that is exploitable
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404 2017-12-25T22:47:50  <LucasMZanella_> Yes, but we could make the required n digits vary according to the block difficulty
405 2017-12-25T22:48:30  <LucasMZanella_> If a person is able to exploit the n digits then he would be able to mine 51% or something like that
406 2017-12-25T22:49:42  <goatpig> sure but you to consider that it would then proportionally increase the size of tx with less inputs
407 2017-12-25T22:50:01  <goatpig> cause you are always carrying at least 32 bytes worth of merkle + compressed ids
408 2017-12-25T22:50:05  <LucasMZanella_> Why it would increase?
409 2017-12-25T22:50:15  <goatpig> in your current proposal
410 2017-12-25T22:50:23  <goatpig> a single input tx is already larger
411 2017-12-25T22:50:39  <goatpig> cause it needs a merkle + 7bytes for 1 compressed id
412 2017-12-25T22:50:41  <LucasMZanella_> The merkle root would substitute the txid at all in the new transaction format
413 2017-12-25T22:51:05  <LucasMZanella_> If there is only one input, the merkle root would match the txid being referenced
414 2017-12-25T22:51:07  <goatpig> you need an id per output + the merkle
415 2017-12-25T22:51:26  <goatpig> yes but as soon as you hit over 128bits compressed ids
416 2017-12-25T22:51:47  <goatpig> now 2 inputs tx are larger than the legacy outpoints
417 2017-12-25T22:53:21  <LucasMZanella_> Can't follow your thinking, I'm confused
418 2017-12-25T22:53:35  <goatpig> you need the merkle root per tx
419 2017-12-25T22:53:38  <goatpig> + 1 id per input
420 2017-12-25T22:53:47  <goatpig> if your ids are 129bits
421 2017-12-25T22:54:14  <goatpig> your 2 input tx is now 258bits of outpoints + 256bit of merkle
422 2017-12-25T22:54:35  <goatpig> currently a 2 inputs is 256x2 bits of outpoints
423 2017-12-25T22:54:49  <goatpig> not including the outpoint id in there cause it's constant accross models
424 2017-12-25T22:54:56  <LucasMZanella_> Then for that case the person could use the old transaction format
425 2017-12-25T22:55:34  <goatpig> now you have discussion of whether that's desirable at all
426 2017-12-25T22:55:40  <goatpig> having 2 models that overlap
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428 2017-12-25T22:56:02  <LucasMZanella_> Wouldn't the model be inneficient just for 2 inputs?
429 2017-12-25T22:56:17  <goatpig> it would be inneficient generally for low input tx
430 2017-12-25T22:56:23  <goatpig> but there's a debate to be had
431 2017-12-25T22:56:38  <LucasMZanella_> I don't think there's a problem in using 2 different transaction formats
432 2017-12-25T22:56:45  <goatpig> of how desirable such a massive change (hf and all) is when you compare the complexity to implement and operate vs the benefit
433 2017-12-25T22:57:08  <goatpig> i have not thought about whether that is a problem or not
434 2017-12-25T22:57:18  <goatpig> but i'd rather err on the side of caution and not introduce complexity
435 2017-12-25T22:57:20  <LucasMZanella_> Yes, but if we're going to ever hard fork for some other reason, this could be included
436 2017-12-25T22:58:08  <LucasMZanella_> I agree with you, but the benefits are huge. Coinjoin, being able to still use one address per transaction, and less fees (the greatest problem)
437 2017-12-25T22:58:20  <goatpig> if it can demonstrated that it is safe
438 2017-12-25T22:58:31  <goatpig> and fees arent a problem that needs to be addressed at consensus level
439 2017-12-25T22:58:38  <goatpig> if they are a problem at all (i dont believe they are)
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