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 17 2018-05-22T01:28:59  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #13300: qa: Initialize lockstack to prevent null pointer deref (master...Mf1805-qaLockDebug) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13300
 18 2018-05-22T01:40:58  <kallewoof> Is it just me, or didn't bitcoind use to write to debug.log even with -printtoconsole=0?
 19 2018-05-22T01:41:26  <kallewoof> Running tests now doesn't create a debug.log file at all. Unless it was moved somewhere outside of -datadir...
 20 2018-05-22T01:41:54  <kallewoof> Oh wait, nevermind, it was in regtest/.
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 29 2018-05-22T03:23:03  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Empact opened pull request #13301: lint: Add linter to error on #include <*.cpp> (master...lint-include-cpp) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13301
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 67 2018-05-22T06:50:28  <fanquake> Chris_Stewart_5 Looks like you need to swap to using posix threads
 68 2018-05-22T06:50:31  <fanquake> sudo update-alternatives --config x86_64-w64-mingw32-g++
 69 2018-05-22T06:50:43  <fanquake> From memory you need to pick option (1)
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 72 2018-05-22T06:52:00  <fanquake> Also, if your not using Ubuntu 18.04, which recently became available in the Windows Store, I'd suggest swapping to that. We have a WIP PR #13246, with simplified build instructions.
 73 2018-05-22T06:52:03  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/13246 | doc: Bump to Ubuntu Bionic 18.04 in build-windows.md by ken2812221 · Pull Request #13246 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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 77 2018-05-22T07:07:55  <jonasschnelli> sipa: we once talked about a similar error correction format (more tolerant) for private keys/seeds. Are you still exploring that field?
 78 2018-05-22T07:08:03  <jonasschnelli> (similar to bech32)
 79 2018-05-22T07:08:12  <sipa> i haven't followed up on that
 80 2018-05-22T07:08:41  <sipa> but i can send a mail with the possible trade-offs or os
 81 2018-05-22T07:08:48  <jonasschnelli> sipa: Do you think it makes sense to introduce a bip32 equivalent for xpriv in bech32 with seed birthday?
 82 2018-05-22T07:10:39  <sipa> jonasschnelli: i don't think that the path of trying to encode all of the possible metadata around a key and derivation paths into one string is feasible
 83 2018-05-22T07:10:41  <jonasschnelli> I guess there is a lot of blockchain scans (bandwidth and CPU consumption) due to the fact that seeds have no birthday
 84 2018-05-22T07:10:46  <sipa> perhaps birthdate can be added
 85 2018-05-22T07:11:01  <sipa> but what about subranges
 86 2018-05-22T07:11:08  <jonasschnelli> subranges?
 87 2018-05-22T07:11:14  <sipa> or whether hardened or nonhardened derivation is supposed to be used
 88 2018-05-22T07:11:28  <sipa> or if it's a multisig key, the other chains to combine it with
 89 2018-05-22T07:11:48  <luke-jr> there's too many possible variants to even try to include it IMO
 90 2018-05-22T07:11:59  <gmaxwell> even just versioning so such things could be added later in a compatible way...
 91 2018-05-22T07:12:00  <sipa> or if it's a nonstandard script, do you include some template into the string too?
 92 2018-05-22T07:12:20  <gmaxwell> luke-jr: there is a subset which is much easier, known needed, etc.
 93 2018-05-22T07:12:54  <jonasschnelli> Yes. Maybe a version bit and a birthday is a way to start. Other metadata is also interesting but birthday is most imortant and uses almost no bytes.
 94 2018-05-22T07:12:54  <luke-jr> perhaps just an generic id field of some sort that can include a wallet format/name
 95 2018-05-22T07:13:10  <gmaxwell> e.g. we _know_ a birth epoch is very useful, virtually always.
 96 2018-05-22T07:13:29  <gmaxwell> it would be kinda sad to omit that just because we're not sure on all the other fields we might want to include. :)
 97 2018-05-22T07:13:31  <luke-jr> I'm certainly not arguing against birth epoch
 98 2018-05-22T07:13:45  <jonasschnelli> I'd say the birthday week from 2009-01-01 would be sufficient
 99 2018-05-22T07:14:05  <sipa> to me, eventually these things will be some standard json like description of keys/addresses/templating/...
100 2018-05-22T07:14:21  <luke-jr> jonasschnelli: year+week might be easier to handle in code
101 2018-05-22T07:14:35  <sipa> and there may be "optimizations" to it which e.g. pack the private key into the same string as the derivation path (like xprv)
102 2018-05-22T07:14:40  <gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: I think there was some list post where I gave some figures on resoltion vs size tradeoff.
103 2018-05-22T07:14:47  <sipa> and perhaps pack the derivation type along with it (bip 158)
104 2018-05-22T07:14:53  <sipa> and perhaps the date/time too
105 2018-05-22T07:15:05  <jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: Okay. I'll search for it
106 2018-05-22T07:15:28  <gmaxwell> luke-jr: (datetime-spec_provided_offset)/number_of_seconds_in_a_week -- it's trivial
107 2018-05-22T07:15:29  <sipa> but i don't like the current thinking... which is essentially that the private key "string" is all you have
108 2018-05-22T07:15:39  <sipa> and that everything *must* be inside of it, or it doesn't exist
109 2018-05-22T07:15:44  <gmaxwell> sipa: that does reflect common backup practices.
110 2018-05-22T07:16:24  <luke-jr> sipa: agreed
111 2018-05-22T07:16:45  <sipa> well it could be a single string still - but not all of it needs to be encoded into an opaque blob
112 2018-05-22T07:16:56  <sipa> you could have something URI like that adds extra data
113 2018-05-22T07:17:18  <gmaxwell> I cerantly agree with your on that point though-- some things like metadata about your txn _cannot_ be encoded in any string set upfront regardless of how long it is... and that data can be pretty critical.
114 2018-05-22T07:17:21  <jonasschnelli> I guess one of the problems is, that users have the idea with 24 words they have a complete backup.
115 2018-05-22T07:17:34  <sipa> that's just silly
116 2018-05-22T07:17:47  <jonasschnelli> But it is sadly the reality...
117 2018-05-22T07:17:52  <sipa> there's not even a way to have an version number in it
118 2018-05-22T07:17:56  <gmaxwell> it's also what e.g. electrum and basically claims.
119 2018-05-22T07:17:58  <luke-jr> jonasschnelli: we don't have to encourage bad ideas
120 2018-05-22T07:18:33  <gmaxwell> (I mean claims as a feature)
121 2018-05-22T07:18:43  <sipa> jonasschnelli: well, i think what i'm thinking is a lower level than a whole wallet
122 2018-05-22T07:18:47  <jonasschnelli> The Bitbox approach to backup to an SDCard seems to be accepted but people still prefer to "write down words to a paper" for backup.
123 2018-05-22T07:19:25  <gmaxwell> Not just to a paper, it's relatively easy to make a fire durable backup of a short string.
124 2018-05-22T07:19:31  <luke-jr> ideally, one would have metadata fully encrypted with a key derived from the seed, and automatically make remote backups of the metadata
125 2018-05-22T07:20:00  <luke-jr> then one can use the seed to recover the full metadata, assuming it's widely backed up
126 2018-05-22T07:21:12  <gmaxwell> right I think a better model in general would be some nice integration where your seed also lets you derrive and ID and encryption key for an encrypted backup that could be stored insecurely... and it would have all that metadata other than the most limited needed for a recovery.
127 2018-05-22T07:21:50  <gmaxwell> and enough data so that if your metadata is lost it's still possible to recover things, though perhaps expensive.
128 2018-05-22T07:22:27  <sipa> see the "future design" section here: https://gist.github.com/sipa/125cfa1615946d0c3f3eec2ad7f250a2
129 2018-05-22T07:22:30  <gmaxwell> such a process would let backups store things like transaction notes and whatnot that could never be captured otherwise.
130 2018-05-22T07:22:47  <sipa> that's effectively all the non-volatile metadata you need to describe a (part of) a wallet
131 2018-05-22T07:22:52  <gmaxwell> and would still let users have a short key to stick in a fire safe.
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133 2018-05-22T07:28:20  <gmaxwell> in any case if "store the metadata elsewhere" were the path, basically the seed would only need versioning and maybe a hint about the kind of derrivation paths that were used.
134 2018-05-22T07:28:56  <gmaxwell> sipa: one thing that isn't included in your lists, is that user really often want to protect their seeds with passwords, and doing that potentially has some overheads.
135 2018-05-22T07:29:03  <luke-jr> well, so long as you can derive the backup key(s), you can put the rest of the derivation in the metadata
136 2018-05-22T07:29:14  <gmaxwell> (alternatively or inaddition to they want to do secret sharing.)
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138 2018-05-22T07:29:44  <sipa> gmaxwell: well this is just describing the part that it's inside the wallet; not how it is to be encoded for exporting/importing
139 2018-05-22T07:29:54  <gmaxwell> luke-jr: I think the idea I was thinking about there would still admit recovery from only the seed but perhaps only in a very costly manner, e.g. lots of brute force path searching or forensics to figure out what software you used.
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141 2018-05-22T07:30:17  <gmaxwell> sipa: I know, just pointing that serializing that stuff still probably isn't enough.
142 2018-05-22T07:30:50  <sipa> well this doesn't describe seeds at all
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144 2018-05-22T07:31:13  <sipa> if you want a seed, you'll have some short string and a determinstic way to derive all of this from it
145 2018-05-22T07:31:13  <gmaxwell> yep not faulting your document.
146 2018-05-22T07:31:32  <sipa> but i don't expect an ability to encode a seed _from_ that data
147 2018-05-22T07:32:34  <gmaxwell> luke-jr: if you can (even at some expense) recover without the 'backup' it makes the backup solution much more usable.  e.g. don't have to worry much about your backup being randsomed for 50% of your funds.
148 2018-05-22T07:33:58  <luke-jr> gmaxwell: true
149 2018-05-22T07:37:27  <jonasschnelli> what alternatives for PBKDF2 with silly static 2048 rounds for seed passphrase derivation would make sense?
150 2018-05-22T07:37:51  <jonasschnelli> Or are passphrase protected seed just a footgun?
151 2018-05-22T07:37:56  <jonasschnelli> *seeds
152 2018-05-22T07:38:38  <gmaxwell> 2048 rounds of PBKDF2 really reeks of snake oil. It's not a meaningful amount of hardening.
153 2018-05-22T07:39:08  <gmaxwell> I think passphrase protected seeds are a footgun, at least if there isn't a recovery mechenism... but people want them anyways.
154 2018-05-22T07:39:30  <gmaxwell> And a recovery mechenism could be provided totally seperately.
155 2018-05-22T07:40:27  <jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: with "recovery mechanism" you mean an expensive forensic like approach to recover a lost seed-passphrase?
156 2018-05-22T07:40:34  <gmaxwell> I'm still fond of offloadable KDFs, which we know how to do.  But when I talked to the trezor folks about that they wanted an additional property that they be (cheaply) verifyable,  which seems possible but moves it more towards being a research problem.
157 2018-05-22T07:42:56  <gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: I mean, like, for example, your backup could contain the an encrypted copy of the passphrase  in a section accessable with the seed alone,  which you could decrypt with the help of a recovery service. E.g. to recover your wallet you need seed+passphrase OR seed + bob's help.  (e.g. your backup has an encrypted message to bob, saying that he should give the content to anyone who pr
158 2018-05-22T07:42:57  <gmaxwell> esents him with a passport with your name on it, and not otherwise).
159 2018-05-22T07:43:14  <gmaxwell> exactly how password recovery works is a huge rathole, unfortunately.
160 2018-05-22T07:44:04  <gmaxwell> Which is why I was making the point that even though I think it's unsafe design to prompt users for a password without having one,  ... it's fine to design a scheme that allows for passwords, since recovery can be provided by something else.
161 2018-05-22T07:45:14  <jonasschnelli> Indeed
162 2018-05-22T07:47:18  <gmaxwell> the problem for passphrases is that they're really kinda dumb without a KDF, if the user provides the password (and if the user doesn't come up with the password they are even more likely to forget it).
163 2018-05-22T07:47:50  <gmaxwell> but people also want to use these schemes with hardware wallets, which don't have the CPU power to do a KDF that a GPU wouldn't laugh at.
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185 2018-05-22T09:34:51  <si> hello world
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187 2018-05-22T09:37:21  <Guest72611> hi
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197 2018-05-22T10:48:00  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/d82c5d15c504...6916024768ec
198 2018-05-22T10:48:01  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 60ebc7d Daniel Kraft: trivial: Mark overrides as such....
199 2018-05-22T10:48:01  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 6916024 MarcoFalke: Merge #13282: trivial: Mark overrides as such....
200 2018-05-22T10:48:50  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #13282: trivial: Mark overrides as such. (master...mark-override) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13282
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277 2018-05-22T15:21:49  <jnewbery> wumpus: #13011 definitely seems ready for merge
278 2018-05-22T15:21:52  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/13011 | Cache witness hash in CTransaction by MarcoFalke · Pull Request #13011 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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292 2018-05-22T15:56:47  <promag> jnewbery: +1 ^
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344 2018-05-22T20:17:44  <sdaftuar> kallewoof: if you're around i was wondering if you could explain how the refactoring in #12634 relates to #12257?
345 2018-05-22T20:17:47  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/12634 | [refactor] Make TransactionWithinChainLimit more flexible by kallewoof · Pull Request #12634 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
346 2018-05-22T20:17:50  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/12257 | [wallet] Use destination groups instead of coins in coin select by kallewoof · Pull Request #12257 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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358 2018-05-22T20:57:10  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #13304: qa: Fix wallet_listreceivedby race (master...Mf1805-qaWalletRace) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13304
359 2018-05-22T21:02:19  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jimpo opened pull request #13305: Refactor: encapsulate mapBlockIndex within validation.cpp (master...validation-globals) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13305
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362 2018-05-22T21:10:51  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jimpo closed pull request #13305: Refactor: encapsulate mapBlockIndex within validation.cpp (master...validation-globals) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13305
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378 2018-05-22T22:18:53  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] theuni opened pull request #13306: build: split warnings out of CXXFLAGS (master...debug_flags) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13306
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388 2018-05-22T22:57:10  <roasbeef> jonasschnelli: re-seed stuff, have y'all seen what we made for lnd? it has all the features one would desire in a seed format: reversible mapping between seed+phrase (uses an arbitrary length tweakable block cipher), a versioning scheme (for the encryption and also the internal wallet payload), if you use a passphrase we can detect invalid attempts, and also we have a "birthdate" which is offset from the genesis block in days -- good till 2189 (iir
389 2018-05-22T22:57:54  <roasbeef> uses proper key derivation (no like 2k rounds of sha2 or w/e lol)
390 2018-05-22T22:58:30  <sipa> roasbeef: does proper imply variable number of rounds? :)
391 2018-05-22T22:59:19  <roasbeef> well woudl be able to have diff versions with higher/lower number of rounds to make it easier for say hardware wallets if that's what you mean
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398 2018-05-22T23:16:32  <kallewoof> sdaftuar: When doing coin selection on groups rather than individual outputs, the ancestor/descendant stuff becomes rather messy if you don't unify them to their corresponding maximums. In order to do that, you need the values, since they are tested against multiple limits.
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