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  6 2018-07-26T00:56:18  <brighton36> What's up party people
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 16 2018-07-26T01:26:48  <brighton36> hello aaronvanw :)
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 18 2018-07-26T01:31:40  <brighton36> Anyone home?
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 48 2018-07-26T09:58:42  <provoostenator> Could someone tag #13426 for a Gitian build?
 49 2018-07-26T09:58:44  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/13426 | [bugfix] Fix encoding issue for Windows by ken2812221 · Pull Request #13426 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 50 2018-07-26T09:59:24  <jonasschnelli> provoostenator: will do..
 51 2018-07-26T09:59:26  <provoostenator> (I haven't given up on cross-compiling, but it's often a hit or miss for me)
 52 2018-07-26T10:00:52  <jonasschnelli> provoostenator: https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/build/715
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 64 2018-07-26T11:04:22  <jonasschnelli> gitian: is there a solution if make-base-vm complains with "E: Couldn't find these debs: git-core"?
 65 2018-07-26T11:04:39  <jonasschnelli> Is that an Apt-Cacher-NG issue?
 66 2018-07-26T11:06:19  <Fuzzbawls> jonasschnelli: AFAIK all references to "git-core" have been replaced with just "git" in the gitian descriptors. could be a local caching issue (though I myself have never encountered such a thing).
 67 2018-07-26T11:09:02  <ken2812221> jonasschnelli: Use the latest version of gitian-builder
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 69 2018-07-26T11:09:21  <jonasschnelli> Thanks... will try
 70 2018-07-26T11:10:21  <jonasschnelli> ken2812221: updating gitian-builder fixed the issue. Thanks
 71 2018-07-26T11:10:44  <jonasschnelli> I didn't updated since I'm pretty sure I added some local modifications. :)
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 73 2018-07-26T11:12:00  <Fuzzbawls> did you ever get a self-compile of LXC 3 working on debian? think i saw it was you that was trying to use version 3...or maybe a later version 2 that wasn't supplied by the distro packages
 74 2018-07-26T11:18:42  <ken2812221> IIRC make-base-vm does not use apt so it may not know about package alias.
 75 2018-07-26T11:21:21  <jonasschnelli> Fuzzbawls. I self compiled 2.1.1
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 78 2018-07-26T11:27:24  <provoostenator> jonasschnelli: got it, thanks
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 80 2018-07-26T11:35:02  <ken2812221> bitcoin-git is dead?
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 88 2018-07-26T11:57:04  <provoostenator> jonasschnelli: the Windows build thinks it's version b591ece04 rather than 5ca74904
 89 2018-07-26T11:57:12  <achow101> ken2812221: sipa killed it by setting +n
 90 2018-07-26T11:57:34  <achow101> to prevent spamming that was happening
 91 2018-07-26T11:58:35  <provoostenator> I guess it makes a merge commit first
 92 2018-07-26T11:59:49  <ken2812221> achow101: thanks
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 94 2018-07-26T12:07:05  <jonasschnelli> ken2812221: any idea how to fix "E: Package 'curl' has no installation candidate" (inside the gitian VM) during gbuild?
 95 2018-07-26T12:07:32  <jonasschnelli> gbuild exists with: ./bin/gbuild:21:in `system!': failed to run on-target -u root -e DEBIAN_FRONTEND=noninteractive apt-get --no-install-recommends -y install ca-certificates curl g++ git pkg-config autoconf librsvg2-bin libtiff-tools libtool automake faketime bsdmainutils cmake imagemagick libcap-dev libz-dev libbz2-dev python python-dev python-setuptools fonts-tuffy > var/install.log 2>&1 (RuntimeError)
 96 2018-07-26T12:14:32  <ken2812221> I haven't seen that error message before, is that a network issue?
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112 2018-07-26T14:10:12  <wumpus> any objections to adding "skeees" to the github orgs? -- he's been fairly active as a contributor
113 2018-07-26T14:12:11  *** ChanServ sets mode: -o wumpus
114 2018-07-26T14:12:33  <fanquake> wumpus +1
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128 2018-07-26T14:59:31  <BlueMatt> Ugh, ok, poll time, what are peoples' thoughts on what to call the witness version of the redeemScript? https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoincore.org/issues/581 and https://github.com/rust-bitcoin/rust-bitcoin/pull/109 for debate context
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130 2018-07-26T15:01:45  <jamesob> wumpus: +1
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133 2018-07-26T15:21:01  <Chris_Stewart_5> wumpus: +1
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135 2018-07-26T15:22:57  <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: it's called the redeemScript.
136 2018-07-26T15:23:55  <gmaxwell> Or witnessScript.
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138 2018-07-26T15:27:02  <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: hmm witnessScript is confusing af, imo
139 2018-07-26T15:29:54  <arubi> redeemscript is even more confusing when it's say a p2sh-p2wsh transaction
140 2018-07-26T15:30:37  <achow101> it's been called the witnessScript. Changing it now would probably introduce more confusion
141 2018-07-26T15:30:39  <arubi> DDG first result for "scriptWitness" is the transaction.h file in the repo, and for "witnessScript bitcoin" the first result is is the core-dev docs site
142 2018-07-26T15:30:49  <arubi> +1 witnessScript
143 2018-07-26T15:34:28  <arubi> (posted on the issue)
144 2018-07-26T15:36:26  <BlueMatt> arubi: well you could call it "witness redeem script" pretty easily
145 2018-07-26T15:36:44  <BlueMatt> scriptWitness already refers to the full witness
146 2018-07-26T15:36:52  <BlueMatt> so now scriptWitness and witnessScript are different things?
147 2018-07-26T15:38:35  <arubi> "witness redeem script" might be better than "witness redeemScript" if it's going to be called that then.  and yea I see your point about this but at least these two terms are easily distinguishable in search
148 2018-07-26T15:39:22  <BlueMatt> from my github comment: "Also, further confusing is that its easy to see the witness as a replacement for the scriptSig (though that's not entirely accurate due to it being a list of pushes, not an executed script), at which point scriptWitness/witnessScript would be easy to assume referred to the full witness."
149 2018-07-26T15:39:58  <BlueMatt> funny that people had been calling it witnessScript and I'd never actually seen that anywhere lol
150 2018-07-26T15:41:40  <arubi> maybe "witnessSource" ?  sort of the source code for the witness program? :)
151 2018-07-26T15:42:03  <BlueMatt> I mean I dont hugely care, I just think witnessscript/scriptwitness is absolutely a terrible idea
152 2018-07-26T15:46:20  <sipa> awww i'm sorry :)
153 2018-07-26T15:46:32  *** sipa sets mode: -o sipa
154 2018-07-26T15:46:59  <sipa> witnessscript = script in the witmess
155 2018-07-26T15:47:09  <sipa> scriptwitness = witne for a script
156 2018-07-26T15:47:27  <BlueMatt> ok, so given there's already like three terms to describe witnessscript, lets stop calling it witnessscript :p
157 2018-07-26T15:48:36  <sipa> witness redeemscript sgtm
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164 2018-07-26T16:16:28  <satwo> Hi all. BIP-141 defines 4 ways to measure the size of a transaction: weight, virtual size, base size, and total size. Bitcoin-cli decoderawtransaction returns weight, vsize ("virtual size" - obvious), and size (“total size" - not obvious). I must not be the only one to have found it nontrivial to figure out how base size, total size in BIP141 and “size” in RPC are related. Even once one figures out that “BIP 141
165 2018-07-26T16:16:28  <satwo>  total size” = “RPC size”, base size and witness data size must be calculated with a little backwards-engineered DIY algebra. Is there room for improvement in documentation/RPC fields here, or am I missing something?
166 2018-07-26T16:19:37  <BlueMatt> sipa: plz2comment on bitcoincore.org issue, then
167 2018-07-26T16:23:39  <gmaxwell> satwo: "base size" is basically completely meaningless in the protocol. It's not used for anything.
168 2018-07-26T16:24:36  <sipa> BlueMatt: what issue?
169 2018-07-26T16:24:45  <gmaxwell> (okay, it's used in the minimum size standardness rule, but I think nowhere else)
170 2018-07-26T16:25:45  <satwo> gmaxwell: That was my intuition, but some things threw me off; i.e. its being used as a tx field in BlockSci, and the fact that many block explorers seem to refer to the base size of a tx in their size field (other explorers refer to total size)
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172 2018-07-26T16:26:17  <sipa> satwo: explorers should only show vsize
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175 2018-07-26T16:26:51  <sipa> all the rest are technical details that most users won't care about
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177 2018-07-26T16:27:15  <gmaxwell> satwo: unfortunately people have promoted a lot of crazy misunderstandings that make people think things that matter don't.
178 2018-07-26T16:27:52  <gmaxwell> e.g. people saying that the limit is "1mb base + 3mb witness", which is not at all how it works, but if it did it would make sense to print two size figures.
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182 2018-07-26T16:31:48  <satwo> sipa: very few do, it seems. For example the tx 88d87642bc1534b9d6f8d62e6e9ae55e5971c0efec30d9139f817eb55c307c71 has a "size" of 381 on Blockchair, blockchain.info, btc.com, and smartbit.au, and a "size" of 126 on Blockcypher, Blocktrail and blockexplorer.com. 381 is the total size and 126 is the base size. So clearly there's some confusion with nomenclature
183 2018-07-26T16:32:20  <satwo> Of course vsize is nowhere to be found except on smartbit
184 2018-07-26T16:34:41  <sipa> satwo: i'm aware
185 2018-07-26T16:34:46  <sipa> i've contacted a few
186 2018-07-26T16:36:20  <sipa> it was probably a mistake to introduce a new namw.for it; we should jusr have replaced size everywhere with vsize
187 2018-07-26T16:36:50  <sipa> but that would have run into issues with people who assumed size = len(serialization)
188 2018-07-26T16:40:46  <satwo> Would modifying bitcoin-rpc to say something like "size (total):" or "total size:" be messy overkill? At the very least it would bring RPC and BIP 141 in harmony, potentially reducing some confusion
189 2018-07-26T16:41:15  <gmaxwell> We should probably drop size out of the rpcs.
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191 2018-07-26T16:50:01  <BlueMatt> sipa: https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoincore.org/issues/581
192 2018-07-26T16:52:24  <satwo> gmaxwell: makes sense. Easier said than done I assume?
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203 2018-07-26T17:54:49  <skeees> wumpus: thanks for the org invite :)
204 2018-07-26T17:54:49  <skeees> also,
205 2018-07-26T17:54:49  <skeees> AMAZING NEWS TODAY!!! I'm giving away ....
206 2018-07-26T17:55:53  <sipa> /report skeees
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208 2018-07-26T18:03:10  <wumpus> skeees: welcome to the org!
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215 2018-07-26T19:01:08  <jonasschnelli> DING / DONG
216 2018-07-26T19:01:30  <wumpus> #startmeeting
217 2018-07-26T19:01:30  <lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Jul 26 19:01:30 2018 UTC.  The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
218 2018-07-26T19:01:30  <lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
219 2018-07-26T19:01:35  <jnewbery> hi
220 2018-07-26T19:01:38  <achow101> hi
221 2018-07-26T19:01:39  <jamesob> hi
222 2018-07-26T19:01:39  <nmnkgl> hi
223 2018-07-26T19:01:44  <jonasschnelli> hi
224 2018-07-26T19:01:45  <provoostenator> hi
225 2018-07-26T19:01:46  <sipa> hi
226 2018-07-26T19:01:59  <cfields> hi
227 2018-07-26T19:02:04  <wumpus> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr btcdrak sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark mi
228 2018-07-26T19:02:08  <wumpus> chagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag provoostenator
229 2018-07-26T19:02:18  <kanzure> hi.
230 2018-07-26T19:02:32  <BlueMatt> I have a somewhat strange topic: what to call the witness version of the p2sh redeemScript...not quite the right venue to discuss it, but there's not a much better one and we have to pick something for bitcoincore.org, sooooo
231 2018-07-26T19:02:56  <wumpus> #topic naming of witness version of the p2sh redeemScript
232 2018-07-26T19:02:59  <achow101> hasn't this been called "witnessScript" for a while?
233 2018-07-26T19:03:04  <sipa> yes
234 2018-07-26T19:03:21  <achow101> that's what i have used for bip 174 at least
235 2018-07-26T19:03:31  <BlueMatt> I had never seen that
236 2018-07-26T19:03:34  <BlueMatt> though I admit it was in the BIP
237 2018-07-26T19:03:42  <BlueMatt> and I know people who've called it the witness redeem script or so
238 2018-07-26T19:03:51  <BlueMatt> which is also confusing cause of p2sh-wrapped segwit
239 2018-07-26T19:04:02  <BlueMatt> but witnessScript is confusing given scriptWitness refers to the whole witness :(
240 2018-07-26T19:04:03  <jonasschnelli> how is this important to define?
241 2018-07-26T19:04:06  <BlueMatt> so every option is shit
242 2018-07-26T19:04:18  <sipa> perhaps it should be called P2WSH redeemscript, as it's arguably specific to P2WSH (P2WPKH doesn't have it, and future witness versions may not either)
243 2018-07-26T19:04:19  <BlueMatt> jonasschnelli: well we need to call it *something* and it seems everyone has a different one
244 2018-07-26T19:04:45  <kanzure> using ambiguous jargon will cause errors and bugs
245 2018-07-26T19:05:01  <sipa> BlueMatt: scriptWitness is just in bitcoin core's source code though; is it called that way anywhere else?
246 2018-07-26T19:05:17  <BlueMatt> sipa: I'm not sure that it is, but that was MarcoFalke's comment to me
247 2018-07-26T19:05:20  <jonasschnelli> IMO it's specified in the BIP, but people are free to form a new term. I don't think there is need to an authoriity to define it.
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250 2018-07-26T19:05:45  <BlueMatt> but, given the witness can be seen as a "scriptSig replacement" calling it that I could see being incredibly confusing to some people
251 2018-07-26T19:06:07  <sipa> yes, i agree it's confusing and we could have picked a better name
252 2018-07-26T19:06:17  <BlueMatt> jonasschnelli: well I ask because there is debate about what to write in some docs in rust-bitcoin, and also what to call it on bitcoincore.org docs
253 2018-07-26T19:06:18  <sipa> the cat may also already be out of the bag since 2 years ago
254 2018-07-26T19:06:27  <BlueMatt> jonasschnelli: so this is the right venue to discuss bitcoincore.org
255 2018-07-26T19:06:38  <BlueMatt> sipa: sure, but I've seen it referred to as other things too already :(
256 2018-07-26T19:06:42  *** promag has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
257 2018-07-26T19:06:45  <promag> hi
258 2018-07-26T19:06:53  <gmaxwell> I think this discussion is a waste of time for this venue.
259 2018-07-26T19:06:55  <provoostenator> For now, maybe just explain that it's confusing and someone should propose a BIP to deconfuse it?
260 2018-07-26T19:06:55  <kanzure> cfields: are the poll results due today?
261 2018-07-26T19:07:22  <jonasschnelli> Can we also rename "wallet"? *duck*
262 2018-07-26T19:07:32  <cfields> kanzure: ah, thanks for the reminder. poll closed at the end of yesterday's meeting. winner: current time
263 2018-07-26T19:07:46  <cfields> er, last week's meeting
264 2018-07-26T19:07:54  <wumpus> #topic meeting time
265 2018-07-26T19:08:08  <provoostenator> Even just pointing out that something_is_ confusing, helps the reader pay attention, otherwise they might think they just don't get it.
266 2018-07-26T19:08:26  <cfields> poll results: https://civs.cs.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/results.pl?id=E_a80f9a69d20aab2a
267 2018-07-26T19:08:37  <kanzure> cfields: is that a selection effect of mostly current-meeting participants answering the survey?
268 2018-07-26T19:09:10  <provoostenator> So was the idea still to alternate between two times?
269 2018-07-26T19:09:15  <cfields> kanzure: possibly, but I'm not sure how else to get the word out.
270 2018-07-26T19:09:29  <gmaxwell> cfields: what was the runner up time?
271 2018-07-26T19:09:49  <cfields> gmaxwell: see link above
272 2018-07-26T19:09:49  <sipa> gmaxwell: one hour earlier
273 2018-07-26T19:10:01  <gmaxwell> oh sorry.
274 2018-07-26T19:11:32  <promag> quick question, when 0.17 branch?
275 2018-07-26T19:11:48  <achow101> promag: August 1st or so
276 2018-07-26T19:11:55  <wumpus> #12624
277 2018-07-26T19:11:57  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/12624 | Release schedule for 0.17.0 · Issue #12624 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
278 2018-07-26T19:12:06  <achow101> according to the release schedule
279 2018-07-26T19:12:14  <wumpus> 2018-08-13
280 2018-07-26T19:12:18  <wumpus> is the plan
281 2018-07-26T19:12:31  <sipa> also w.r.t. scantxoutset, are we going to mark it experimental?
282 2018-07-26T19:12:47  <wumpus> I think everyone agreed on that
283 2018-07-26T19:13:00  <jonasschnelli> Yes. I can PR that.
284 2018-07-26T19:13:00  <promag> +1
285 2018-07-26T19:13:11  <gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: thanks.
286 2018-07-26T19:13:28  <jonasschnelli> Sorry for the delayed review on sipas descriptor work... will comment soon on the PR
287 2018-07-26T19:14:52  *** LeMiner has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
288 2018-07-26T19:15:20  <wumpus> #topic 0.16.2 final
289 2018-07-26T19:15:28  <BlueMatt> ack
290 2018-07-26T19:15:37  <wumpus> rc2 was tagged ~a week ago, I don't think any issues came up
291 2018-07-26T19:15:42  <gmaxwell> I haven't seen or heard any issues with the RC.
292 2018-07-26T19:15:51  <wumpus> so I think it's time to tag final
293 2018-07-26T19:15:55  <jonasschnelli> agree
294 2018-07-26T19:15:58  <cfields> +1
295 2018-07-26T19:16:15  <wumpus> ok, will do so after the meeting
296 2018-07-26T19:16:20  <gmaxwell> not have any OMG-must-fix-now bugs cropped up that I'm aware of.
297 2018-07-26T19:16:21  <promag> +1
298 2018-07-26T19:16:23  <achow101> yay
299 2018-07-26T19:16:41  <wumpus> any other topics?
300 2018-07-26T19:17:11  <cfields> quick personal announcement: A small health issue has been taking up a good amount of my time lately, and I've been struggling to keep up with review, let alone writing new code. I've decided to take a week or two to try to finish up outstanding things, then take a month away to try to get back to 100%. I'll try to at least keep up with emails and pings during that time.
301 2018-07-26T19:17:35  <wumpus> as for high priority for review, please review everything under the 0.17 milestone: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/milestone/33
302 2018-07-26T19:17:44  <kanzure> cfields: good luck with your health.
303 2018-07-26T19:17:46  <sipa> cfields: take all the time you need
304 2018-07-26T19:17:46  <jamesob> rest up, cfields!
305 2018-07-26T19:17:48  <cfields> so if I owe anyone review on something, please give me a ping!
306 2018-07-26T19:17:49  <jonasschnelli> sad to hear and hope you will recover soon cfields!
307 2018-07-26T19:17:50  <gmaxwell> #13756 might want to have some coordination on the UI/GUI side. (or someone to come yell at me to not creep the scope)
308 2018-07-26T19:17:51  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/13756 | wallet: -avoidreuse feature for improved privacy by kallewoof · Pull Request #13756 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
309 2018-07-26T19:18:24  <wumpus> cfields: yes, just take the rest you need
310 2018-07-26T19:18:33  <provoostenator> gmaxwell I'll try that one.
311 2018-07-26T19:19:07  <jonasschnelli> thanks provoostenator
312 2018-07-26T19:19:09  <promag> re 13756, I have some too
313 2018-07-26T19:19:13  <cfields> thanks, all, but ping away.
314 2018-07-26T19:19:14  <promag> *questions :/
315 2018-07-26T19:20:34  <wumpus> is kallewoof there to answer them?
316 2018-07-26T19:20:47  <wumpus> if not, I don't think it makes sense to ask them during the meeting
317 2018-07-26T19:20:51  <sipa> it's 4:20 AM for him
318 2018-07-26T19:20:58  <promag> sure, in I'll do in gh
319 2018-07-26T19:20:58  <wumpus> right
320 2018-07-26T19:21:10  <wumpus> ok
321 2018-07-26T19:22:12  <gmaxwell> I brought it up in part because kallewoof doesn't make meetings. :)
322 2018-07-26T19:22:41  <jonasschnelli> JP timezone I guess
323 2018-07-26T19:23:00  <wumpus> the PR missed the feature freeze so there's not that much hurry
324 2018-07-26T19:24:03  <wumpus> any other topics?
325 2018-07-26T19:24:43  <luke-jr> steak?
326 2018-07-26T19:25:21  <jamesob> did we decide to stop maintaining/pushing a high-prio PR list?
327 2018-07-26T19:25:25  <wumpus> steak!
328 2018-07-26T19:25:35  <midnightmagic> +1 steak
329 2018-07-26T19:25:37  <sipa> jamesob: it's just overshadowed now by the 0.17 milestone
330 2018-07-26T19:25:44  <wumpus> jamesob: < wumpus> as for high priority for review, please review everything under the 0.17 milestone: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/milestone/33
331 2018-07-26T19:25:53  <jamesob> oops, thanks
332 2018-07-26T19:26:00  <gmaxwell> because we're near 0.17, its the 0.17 list that is high prio right now.
333 2018-07-26T19:26:18  <wumpus> maintainging a separate high priority list is just confusing at the moment, I think
334 2018-07-26T19:27:01  *** schmidty_ has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
335 2018-07-26T19:27:14  <promag> agree, 0.17 is high priority
336 2018-07-26T19:29:04  <wumpus> any other 0.17 PR s that need to be discussed?
337 2018-07-26T19:29:48  <ken2812221> #13426
338 2018-07-26T19:29:50  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/13426 | [bugfix] Fix encoding issue for Windows by ken2812221 · Pull Request #13426 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
339 2018-07-26T19:30:08  <ken2812221> Is it allowable to add wmain function?
340 2018-07-26T19:30:25  <wumpus> #topic encoding issue on windows (ken2812221(
341 2018-07-26T19:30:49  *** jtimon has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
342 2018-07-26T19:31:17  <cfields> there are a bunch of current PRs for depends and gitian descriptors. I assume it's no problem to continue working on those for 0.17? There are a few fixes that may be non-trivial that I would greatly prefer over the one-liner fixes.
343 2018-07-26T19:31:34  <wumpus> ken2812221: I'd prefer not, I think we had multiple entry points at some point, with special one for windows but this was cleaned up to just main(), if there is really no other way
344 2018-07-26T19:31:56  <gmaxwell> i hate strings
345 2018-07-26T19:32:21  <wumpus> so do I, but unfortunately they're needed for path names
346 2018-07-26T19:32:31  <cfields> windows strings cause 2x developer hate :(
347 2018-07-26T19:32:46  <luke-jr> they string us along?
348 2018-07-26T19:32:58  <gmaxwell> so the issue here is that windows APIs want UTF16 strings or something?
349 2018-07-26T19:32:59  <cfields> luke-jr: i would characterize it that way, hes
350 2018-07-26T19:33:13  <wumpus> gmaxwell: yes :-/
351 2018-07-26T19:33:18  <ken2812221> Windows does not use utf8
352 2018-07-26T19:33:26  <gmaxwell> I'm vaguely aware of that.
353 2018-07-26T19:33:39  <wumpus> I think #13426 is too big a change
354 2018-07-26T19:33:42  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/13426 | [bugfix] Fix encoding issue for Windows by ken2812221 · Pull Request #13426 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
355 2018-07-26T19:33:57  <gmaxwell> Originally it was UCS2 but then they realized that chinese exists and it became UTF16 to get the worst of all worlds or soemthing like that.
356 2018-07-26T19:34:27  <wumpus> is this reallky all necessary? it changes pretty much all uses of paths in the code
357 2018-07-26T19:34:35  <sipa> yeah, they adopted unicode very early, and picked a different encoding than what the rest of the world eventually ended up pickin
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359 2018-07-26T19:35:23  <gmaxwell> ken2812221: what keeps you from intercepting a couple places at a low level and inserting at UTF8->UTF16 conversion?
360 2018-07-26T19:35:39  <wumpus> I hate waltzing over the entire code to accomodate windows' crappyness
361 2018-07-26T19:36:08  <ken2812221> The command line argument, I think.
362 2018-07-26T19:36:35  <wumpus> most of the changes seem .string() versus .u8string()
363 2018-07-26T19:36:51  <gmaxwell> ken2812221: the commandline arguments come in as utf8 strings, right?
364 2018-07-26T19:37:12  <ken2812221> no, it is ANSI or UTF-16.
365 2018-07-26T19:37:19  <wumpus> on POSIX platforms that's what we assume, in windows they come as utf16 strings
366 2018-07-26T19:37:23  <ken2812221> on Windows
367 2018-07-26T19:38:05  <sipa> since windows 10 apparently you can select a codepage for the "ansi" encoding that is utf8
368 2018-07-26T19:38:14  <wumpus> sipa: oh!
369 2018-07-26T19:38:24  <sipa> oh no
370 2018-07-26T19:38:30  <gmaxwell> wumpus: so how do we deal with like ua comment coming in and not sticking UTF16 into our network messages?
371 2018-07-26T19:38:40  <sipa> only possible since windows 10 insider build 17035 (November 2017)
372 2018-07-26T19:38:47  <cfields> gmaxwell: we sanitize those
373 2018-07-26T19:39:17  <gmaxwell> cfields: but given UTF16 wouldn't our sanitizer just corrupt the string? (throw out all characters?)
374 2018-07-26T19:39:28  <cfields> (unsure what gets lost in the conversion, but we know what can't go out)
375 2018-07-26T19:39:29  <wumpus> gmaxwell: it needs to be converted to UTF8 for the internal use
376 2018-07-26T19:39:37  <gmaxwell> okay, I clearly know nothing here so I should probably just go read.
377 2018-07-26T19:39:47  <wumpus> so the arguments come in as UTF-16, then are converted to UTF-8 for storage
378 2018-07-26T19:39:55  <gmaxwell> wumpus: right I guess I was just assuming the argument processing conerted it all to utf8 before we saw any of it.
379 2018-07-26T19:39:59  <wumpus> which makes complete sense in ken2812221 's PR
380 2018-07-26T19:40:02  <cfields> gmaxwell: nah, I think you're right. I was just making the point that it at least won't go over the wire that way.
381 2018-07-26T19:40:13  <sipa> ok, 17035 was finally released as "April 2018 update"
382 2018-07-26T19:40:21  <sipa> that's... a decade too late
383 2018-07-26T19:40:28  <wumpus> sipa: yes...
384 2018-07-26T19:40:41  <gmaxwell> In which case I'd assume the path issue could be solved by wrapping the file IO with something that converts our internal utf8 to utf16 for windows.
385 2018-07-26T19:40:42  <luke-jr> XD
386 2018-07-26T19:40:49  <wumpus> though microsoft is twisting people's arms really hard to upgrade to windows 10
387 2018-07-26T19:40:59  <sipa> don't we already have the fs space for that?
388 2018-07-26T19:41:07  <wumpus> yes, that's what his PR does
389 2018-07-26T19:41:22  <sipa> hmm, i would expect it's just changing one or two functions
390 2018-07-26T19:41:26  <gmaxwell> ^
391 2018-07-26T19:41:40  <sipa> sorry, i'm not very familiar with this part of the code; i should probably go look
392 2018-07-26T19:41:45  <wumpus> it makes sense, the only thing is dislike is the size of the diff because he uses .u8string instead of .string in so many places, but it's fairly simple
393 2018-07-26T19:43:03  <ken2812221> There are some TODO: leveldb and fstream
394 2018-07-26T19:43:07  <wumpus> should probably get over it and review it...
395 2018-07-26T19:43:16  *** SopaXorzTaker has quit IRC
396 2018-07-26T19:43:25  <ken2812221> They are not support utf-8 in this PR.
397 2018-07-26T19:44:03  <wumpus> so that will still fail with datadirs with, say, Chinese characters in it?
398 2018-07-26T19:44:45  <ken2812221> Yes, still fail, but success if you set your setting to Chinese.
399 2018-07-26T19:44:58  <ken2812221> Before this PR, both fail.
400 2018-07-26T19:45:55  <wumpus> okay, that's good
401 2018-07-26T19:46:33  <ken2812221> Thanks
402 2018-07-26T19:47:51  <jtimon> I guess #13311 doesn't deserve to be in the 0.17.0 milestone since it is not a feature nor a bugfix
403 2018-07-26T19:47:53  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/13311 | Dont edit Chainparams after initialization by jtimon · Pull Request #13311 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHubAsset 1Asset 1
404 2018-07-26T19:52:03  <wumpus> it's not really about 'deserve', I don't see a point to add it to the milestone, but if it is ready for merge before branching off 0.17 it can make it into 0.17
405 2018-07-26T19:53:01  <jtimon> sure, perhaps not the right word, "I guess there's no point for in to be in the milestone"
406 2018-07-26T19:53:47  <wumpus> yes, I agree with that
407 2018-07-26T19:54:04  <jtimon> I guess I was just review begging by mentioning it, sorry
408 2018-07-26T19:54:11  <wumpus> that's okay
409 2018-07-26T19:56:13  <wumpus> I guess we're out of topics
410 2018-07-26T19:56:16  <wumpus> #endmeeting
411 2018-07-26T19:56:16  <lightningbot> Meeting ended Thu Jul 26 19:56:16 2018 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
412 2018-07-26T19:56:16  <lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2018/bitcoin-core-dev.2018-07-26-19.01.html
413 2018-07-26T19:56:16  <lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2018/bitcoin-core-dev.2018-07-26-19.01.txt
414 2018-07-26T19:56:16  <lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2018/bitcoin-core-dev.2018-07-26-19.01.log.html
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418 2018-07-26T20:21:01  <gmaxwell> Does anyone have any idea on how we could tell if dbcache flush events are becoming correlated across the network?
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421 2018-07-26T20:38:22  <wumpus> no idea how to do that without adding instrumentation and metrics reporting
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423 2018-07-26T20:39:16  <gmaxwell> I suppose we could check logs from a number of our own long running nodes and see if they line up, but I bet most of us are changing the default dbcache size.
424 2018-07-26T20:40:50  <skeees> thats a pretty tricky, but interesting problem, would flushing db cache introduce a measurable delay in responding to a ping?
425 2018-07-26T20:41:18  <skeees> how close of an interval becomes problematic in your opinion?
426 2018-07-26T20:41:24  <wumpus> tes but so does validation of blocks
427 2018-07-26T20:41:39  <wumpus> gmaxwell: indeed, logs would also be good
428 2018-07-26T20:43:03  <gmaxwell> skeees: yes but validating a block does too
429 2018-07-26T20:43:20  <gmaxwell> Basically the concern is that if nodes are synchronizing their flushes, it will slow down block propagation somewhat.
430 2018-07-26T20:43:40  <gmaxwell> Because you get a block, validate it, flush (if needed), aand relay it.
431 2018-07-26T20:44:04  <gmaxwell> if nodes aren't synced propagation will just route around flushing nodes.
432 2018-07-26T20:44:27  <gmaxwell> HB mode with forward-before-validate like we have now I'm sure greatly reduces the issue.
433 2018-07-26T20:44:57  <kanzure> relay and flush are in same thread?
434 2018-07-26T20:45:10  <gmaxwell> I was talking to matt in private about some relay improvements, and we observed that even for relay the stuff we were talking about was probably not the low hanging fruit.
435 2018-07-26T20:46:04  <gmaxwell> kanzure: non-oppturnistic realy blocks on validation (as it must per protocol), and validation blocks on flushing (as it kind-of must to avoid excess memory usage)
436 2018-07-26T20:46:42  <skeees> well i do have that pr that puts net and validation (/flush) in separate threads - it would still require additional work though to remove cs_main from relay I think
437 2018-07-26T20:46:44  <gmaxwell> in theory everything could be rejiggered to make that less bad, but that effort would probably be better spent in making flushing a non-issue via incremental flushing which we changed the design to facilitate a few releases ago.
438 2018-07-26T20:46:58  <gmaxwell> skeees: putting it in seperate threads is irrelevant.
439 2018-07-26T20:47:39  <skeees> that wouldn't enable you to relay while the flush happened?
440 2018-07-26T20:47:40  <gmaxwell> A question of threading isn't the source of delays.
441 2018-07-26T20:48:40  <kanzure> it's validation. if you want non-opportunistic relay.
442 2018-07-26T20:49:01  <kanzure> hence the mention of a refactor
443 2018-07-26T20:49:18  <gmaxwell> skeees: you'd be able to do just the same by moving the flush ahead of the next verification operation, without changing anything with threading.
444 2018-07-26T20:50:50  <gmaxwell> in any case, I asked because if they're syncing it's probably a completely safe one line of code change to make them no longer sync up.
445 2018-07-26T20:51:27  <gmaxwell> (just make each node randomly make its dbcache zero to four blocks of worth of data smaller.)
446 2018-07-26T20:54:05  <wumpus>  * [new tag]                                                                           v0.16.2 -> v0.16.2
447 2018-07-26T20:55:39  <gmaxwell> The right bigger change is to make it so that we only flush a small amount, and then flush every block. A few versions ago we relaxed the invarient that the chainstate database has to be consistent with a particular block.
448 2018-07-26T20:56:35  <sipa> wumpus: \o/
449 2018-07-26T20:56:52  <gmaxwell> But even that isn't worth doing for latency reasons; it's worth doing because it should speed up sync a lot by better overlapping writing.
450 2018-07-26T20:57:31  <gmaxwell> (not worth it for latency because esp with oppturnistic sends, latency is already stupid low)
451 2018-07-26T20:57:34  <skeees> if you flush every block - won't that affect propagation of blocks that come in very close succession? (i assumed this was why you suggested a randomized flush)
452 2018-07-26T20:59:22  <gmaxwell> skeees: if its flushing every block each flush will only take a fraction of a millisecond.
453 2018-07-26T21:00:28  <gmaxwell> right now a 'flush' writes out the entire dbcache, not just one block worth of it.
454 2018-07-26T21:00:50  <skeees> ah
455 2018-07-26T21:01:14  <gmaxwell> that used to be required so that the chainstate on disk would be consistent with a specific block, but we don't require that anymore.
456 2018-07-26T21:01:30  <gmaxwell> because on restart we'll just replay the effect recent blocks had on the chainstate.
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458 2018-07-26T21:08:48  <jtimon> randomly reducing the cachedb a little bit seems like an inofensive temporal fix, also simple to remove when we have the better fix
459 2018-07-26T21:09:34  <gmaxwell> if a fix is needed at all.
460 2018-07-26T21:09:40  <gmaxwell> which was my question.
461 2018-07-26T21:11:27  * jtimon nods
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