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 51 2018-08-14T02:52:31  <waiting2compile> hi, could someone walk me a bit through running Bitcoin's tests? I tried following the instructions in the README.md, though I suspect there's some extra setup that needs to be done that's missing, since running the command just gives make errors and the like (pardon me, I'm new to this and am trying to fix one of the good first bugs :))
 52 2018-08-14T02:57:04  <sipa> have you looked at build-unix.md (or windows/osx, based on your environement)
 53 2018-08-14T02:57:07  <sipa> ?
 54 2018-08-14T03:01:13  <waiting2compile> Ah I had not, I'll try following the instructions there and see if I have any luck
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 65 2018-08-14T04:32:31  <ken2812221_> Fetching qtbase-opensource-src-5.9.6.tar.xz from https://download.qt.io/official_releases/qt/5.9/5.9.6/submodules
 66 2018-08-14T04:32:31  <ken2812221_>   % Total    % Received % Xferd  Average Speed   Time    Time     Time  Current
 67 2018-08-14T04:32:32  <ken2812221_>                                  Dload  Upload   Total   Spent    Left  Speed
 68 2018-08-14T04:32:32  <ken2812221_>   0     0    0     0    0     0      0      0 --:--:--  0:00:05 --:--:--     0curl: (7) Failed to connect to download.qt.io port 443: No route to host
 69 2018-08-14T04:32:32  <ken2812221_> Fetching qtbase-opensource-src-5.9.6.tar.xz from https://bitcoincore.org/depends-sources
 70 2018-08-14T04:32:34  <ken2812221_>   % Total    % Received % Xferd  Average Speed   Time    Time     Time  Current
 71 2018-08-14T04:32:36  <ken2812221_>                                  Dload  Upload   Total   Spent    Left  Speed
 72 2018-08-14T04:32:38  <ken2812221_>   0     0    0     0    0     0      0      0 --:--:--  0:00:01 --:--:--     0
 73 2018-08-14T04:32:40  <ken2812221_> curl: (22) The requested URL returned error: 404 Not Found
 74 2018-08-14T04:33:27  <ken2812221_> download.qt.io is down, also there is no backup at bitcoincore.org
 75 2018-08-14T04:35:43  <luke-jr> not sure who maintains the bitcoincore.org mirrors
 76 2018-08-14T04:36:42  <luke-jr> fwiw there's a mirror here http://distfiles.gentoo.org/distfiles/qtbase-opensource-src-5.9.6.tar.xz
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 84 2018-08-14T05:10:41  <ken2812221_> luke-jr: thanks, that works
 85 2018-08-14T05:12:32  <ken2812221_> But I think I'll need to rebuild qt once I change back to download.qt.io site site
 86 2018-08-14T05:13:17  <luke-jr> why?
 87 2018-08-14T05:37:44  <ken2812221_> luke-jr: Since I changed the link in .mk file
 88 2018-08-14T05:38:08  <ken2812221_> hash does not match the previous built one.
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 97 2018-08-14T07:24:44  <fanquake> wumpus 13963, 13962 and 13948 are a few trivial merges.
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 99 2018-08-14T07:33:27  <wumpus> fanquake: thanks, agree
100 2018-08-14T07:34:20  <wumpus> we really need a replacement for the IRC merges bot
101 2018-08-14T07:35:23  <wumpus> ken2812221_: problems with bitcoincore.org you can file at https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoincore.org
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104 2018-08-14T07:49:39  <ken2812221_> wumpus: Thanks, I'll check that out.
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120 2018-08-14T09:32:36  <wumpus> time to update my build infrastructure so I can finally build the 0.17 branch in gitian
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122 2018-08-14T09:37:08  <wumpus> starting with building the most recent lxc, 3.0.1 apparently
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135 2018-08-14T09:57:01  <Gnappuraz> Hi, I was going through the bitcoin documentation but I can't find the rationale behind the fact of using the prevTx.scriptPubKey in the place of curTx.scriptSig when creating the signature
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187 2018-08-14T12:19:37  <wumpus> $ bin/make-base-vm --lxc --suite bionic --arch amd64
188 2018-08-14T12:19:40  <wumpus> E: No such script: /usr/share/debootstrap/scripts/bionic
189 2018-08-14T12:19:59  * wumpus wonders where to get this file
190 2018-08-14T12:23:35  <wumpus> seemingly the ubuntu package of debootstrap has it, but I don't think I can just install that on debian
191 2018-08-14T12:26:01  <wumpus> found the source download @ http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/d/debootstrap/debootstrap_1.0.95.tar.gz
192 2018-08-14T12:29:21  <wumpus> nice, removing the debootstrap debian package and simply installing that seems to have worked
193 2018-08-14T12:32:46  <wumpus> luckily it's only a VM so I don't care about the mess
194 2018-08-14T12:47:00  <wumpus> Failed run an application inside container
195 2018-08-14T12:47:00  <wumpus> bin/gbuild:21:in `system!': failed to run make-clean-vm --suite bionic --arch amd64 (RuntimeError)
196 2018-08-14T12:47:19  <wumpus> ouch--can't build 0.16.x nor 0.17.x anymore
197 2018-08-14T13:07:18  *** vexbuy has quit IRC
198 2018-08-14T13:07:38  <wumpus> apparently I'm missing init.lxc.static
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200 2018-08-14T13:09:42  <BlueMatt> can someone close #13826 and #13901 as dup's (sorry, wasnt able to fix it last week, will fix it soon)
201 2018-08-14T13:09:44  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/13826 | packaging: Auto-change datadir in ubuntu ppa · Issue #13826 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
202 2018-08-14T13:09:44  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/13901 | adduser: The user `bitcoin already exists. Exiting. · Issue #13901 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHubAsset 1Asset 1
203 2018-08-14T13:11:23  <BlueMatt> wait, no I misread the first one, I have no idea what they're even saying
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205 2018-08-14T13:13:07  <wumpus> apparently I needed "apt-get libcap-dev",  please work now
206 2018-08-14T13:13:18  <wumpus> BlueMatt: sure
207 2018-08-14T13:14:50  <wumpus> closed the second one
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217 2018-08-14T14:05:11  <wumpus> phew, 0.16.2 build succesfully, let's see about 0.17
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221 2018-08-14T14:34:37  <MarcoFalke> did the irc spam stop?
222 2018-08-14T14:34:48  <MarcoFalke> If so could we set the irc flags to what they were a few weeks ago?
223 2018-08-14T14:35:07  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o sipa
224 2018-08-14T14:35:14  *** sipa sets mode: -n 
225 2018-08-14T14:35:20  *** sipa sets mode: -o sipa
226 2018-08-14T14:35:30  <sipa> done
227 2018-08-14T14:35:54  <MarcoFalke> thx
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233 2018-08-14T14:52:50  <wumpus> does this mean...
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235 2018-08-14T14:53:10  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 3 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/dabfcb03071e...3e5424faf6ff
236 2018-08-14T14:53:12  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 43811e6 Andrew Chow: Fix PSBT deserialization of 0-input transactions...
237 2018-08-14T14:53:12  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master bd19cc7 Andrew Chow: Serialize non-witness utxo as a non-witness tx but always deserialize as witness...
238 2018-08-14T14:53:12  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 3e5424f Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #13960: Fix PSBT deserialization of 0-input transactions...
239 2018-08-14T14:53:16  <wumpus> YESSSSS
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241 2018-08-14T14:54:22  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #13960: Fix PSBT deserialization of 0-input transactions (master...fix-decodepsbt-no-in) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13960
242 2018-08-14T14:58:11  <sipa> haha
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248 2018-08-14T15:10:30  <ben_zen1>  ­ ­ ­ ­ ­  http://magaimg.net/img/wqz.jpg  ­  ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ http://magaimg.net/img/wqz.jpg  ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­
249 2018-08-14T15:10:35  <ben_zen1>  ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­  ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­  ­ https://i.redd.it/8w0r915sm1ty.jpg  ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­
250 2018-08-14T15:10:41  <ben_zen1>  ­ ­  https://i.imgur.com/FZ5iI6Y.jpg ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­
251 2018-08-14T15:10:44  <ben_zen1>  ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­  ­ https://i.redd.it/el0p0os7u7fz.jpg  ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­
252 2018-08-14T15:10:48  <ben_zen1>  ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ https://i.redd.it/r2n8a788qs211.jpg  ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­
253 2018-08-14T15:10:52  <ben_zen1> http://i.imgur.com/DfZdPTy.jpg  ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­
254 2018-08-14T15:10:56  <ben_zen1> http://magaimg.net/img/5xpf.jpg  ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­
255 2018-08-14T15:11:01  <ben_zen1>  ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ https://i.imgur.com/AaQg3Pp.jpg  ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­
256 2018-08-14T15:12:04  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o sipa
257 2018-08-14T15:12:06  *** sipa sets mode: +n 
258 2018-08-14T15:12:08  *** sipa sets mode: -o sipa
259 2018-08-14T15:12:10  <sipa> sorry :(
260 2018-08-14T15:13:11  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o sipa
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262 2018-08-14T15:29:26  <sipa> wumpus: i'm going to clear the 'needs release notes' for all PRs merged before 0.17
263 2018-08-14T15:29:40  <sipa> or are there things in the 0.16 branch that haven't been in a release yet?
264 2018-08-14T15:43:07  <sipa> are we going to include qt arm builds in 0.17 releases?
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267 2018-08-14T16:08:36  <sipa> i went through the list of merged PRs, and added "Needs Release Notes" here and there where i felt it was useful
268 2018-08-14T16:09:10  <sipa> some of these already have release notes, but i think it's useful to have such a list to compare with the notes when they are finished
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276 2018-08-14T16:59:51  <wumpus> sipa: make ssense
277 2018-08-14T16:59:54  <wumpus> +s
278 2018-08-14T17:00:34  <wumpus> nothing has been merged after 0.16.2 that needs release notes
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290 2018-08-14T17:47:57  <wumpus> gitian build--at least for linux--of 0.17 branch worked, phew
291 2018-08-14T17:48:53  <wumpus> going to test at least the ARM executables
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294 2018-08-14T17:57:49  <instagibbs> anyone else getting github.com domain name res failure for git
295 2018-08-14T17:58:09  <instagibbs> oh sike, i just have no internet on the device
296 2018-08-14T17:58:44  <sipa> i confirm your IRC client is on the internet
297 2018-08-14T17:58:47  *** sipa sets mode: -o sipa
298 2018-08-14T17:59:01  <instagibbs> the burdens of running multiple computing devices...
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313 2018-08-14T19:13:15  <BlueMatt> hmmm, MarcoFalke points out that it looks like we may be undercounting mempool memory usage by sizeof(CTransaction)*txcount
314 2018-08-14T19:14:17  <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: so fix it?
315 2018-08-14T19:14:51  <BlueMatt> oh, wait, nvm, I'm misreading it
316 2018-08-14T19:15:00  <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: I was hoping for someone to double-check me, but I found myself to be wrong faster :p
317 2018-08-14T19:15:46  <gmaxwell> fixing it also has the property of showing you that you're wrong fast. :P
318 2018-08-14T19:16:11  *** SopaXorzTaker has quit IRC
319 2018-08-14T19:16:15  <BlueMatt> lol true
320 2018-08-14T19:21:51  <jonasschnelli_> hmm... manually added nodes with -connect have no service flags?!
321 2018-08-14T19:22:08  *** jonasschnelli_ is now known as jonasschnelli
322 2018-08-14T19:23:15  <jonasschnelli> If its unknown if the peer supports NODE_ENCRYPTION, I guess just trying and ^NODE_ENCRYPTION if failed seems accptable
323 2018-08-14T19:25:12  <gmaxwell> probably just try. maybe in a couple years we mandate encryption for connect and addnode (and add something for a connect that doesn't support it)
324 2018-08-14T19:27:23  <jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: you mean also trying on peers not signalling NODE_ENCRYPTION via the service flags (and eventually update addrman's service flags if failed to encrypt)?
325 2018-08-14T19:28:11  <sipa> i would only try it for things that signal encryption
326 2018-08-14T19:28:25  <sipa> if it doesn't work, drop the flag in your addrman and disconnect
327 2018-08-14T19:28:37  <gmaxwell> I was specifically talking about connect and addnode, where there are no 'flags' before we connect.
328 2018-08-14T19:28:46  <sipa> ah, makes sense
329 2018-08-14T19:28:55  <sipa> uh, that means trying twice :(
330 2018-08-14T19:29:06  <gmaxwell> if they don't support it.
331 2018-08-14T19:29:12  <gmaxwell> Do you see an alternative?
332 2018-08-14T19:29:28  <gmaxwell> We could immediately introduce flags to connect and addnode to say that crypto isn't in use.
333 2018-08-14T19:29:31  <sipa> -encaddnode -encconnect :)
334 2018-08-14T19:29:48  <gmaxwell> encryption should be the default.
335 2018-08-14T19:30:18  <gmaxwell> Ignoring the initial deployment catch22,  I dont think there is much reason to even support connect/addnode to non-encryption supporting things...
336 2018-08-14T19:30:32  <jonasschnelli> indeed...
337 2018-08-14T19:30:33  <sipa> yeah
338 2018-08-14T19:30:49  <sipa> but you don't want existing addnode=IP lines in bitcoin.conf files suddenly fail
339 2018-08-14T19:31:05  <jonasschnelli> I think if -netconnection is enabled (which could be the default), addnode (and friends) should enforce encrypted peers
340 2018-08-14T19:31:24  <gmaxwell> sipa: Major versions can break things, thats what release notes are for.
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342 2018-08-14T19:32:01  <sipa> or we could add encryption support, and a way to add flags to addnode/connect in one version
343 2018-08-14T19:32:04  <jonasschnelli> I think failing on addnodes that are non encrypted is probably a good thing
344 2018-08-14T19:32:09  <sipa> and then change the default to encryption in a later version
345 2018-08-14T19:32:20  <jonasschnelli> or that,.. yes
346 2018-08-14T19:32:20  <gmaxwell> we could make connect and addnode able to take an parameter e.g. connect=1.2.3.4$nocrypto
347 2018-08-14T19:32:35  <gmaxwell> yes, that would be okay.
348 2018-08-14T19:32:35  <sipa> that may be necessary regardless, yes
349 2018-08-14T19:33:00  <sipa> i wonder if we should call it encryption
350 2018-08-14T19:33:12  <jonasschnelli> enciphering? *duck*?
351 2018-08-14T19:33:17  <gmaxwell> connect=1.2.3.4$crypto  connect=1.2.3.4$nocrypto   ... and the default if no specified starts out no and gets switched later.
352 2018-08-14T19:33:26  <sipa> maybe it should just be "v2 protocol" (which happens to encrypt, but it's really a new non-backward compatible protocol encoding
353 2018-08-14T19:34:34  <jonasschnelli> Yes. That sounds good... I just fear scope creeping if we label it like that
354 2018-08-14T19:34:50  <sipa> okay
355 2018-08-14T19:34:53  <sipa> just an idea
356 2018-08-14T19:34:57  <jonasschnelli> "Ah. v2 protocol, why don't use change the inv that way",. etc.
357 2018-08-14T19:35:17  <sipa> but encryption isn't something that should be advertized really
358 2018-08-14T19:35:21  <jonasschnelli> But since it's a new protocol (kind-of a one time chance), those ideas are maybe welcome
359 2018-08-14T19:35:54  <sipa> or "v2 transport"
360 2018-08-14T19:36:02  <sipa> it's not really the protocol that changes, just the encoding
361 2018-08-14T19:36:03  <jonasschnelli> sipa: what do you mean with "advertised"?
362 2018-08-14T19:36:21  <jonasschnelli> sipa: Yes. "v2 transport" is more accurate
363 2018-08-14T19:36:58  <sipa> if you use the term 'encryption' to describe the feature there may be a false sense of security risk
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365 2018-08-14T19:37:42  <jonasschnelli> Hm... you mean by not protecting from an active MITM?
366 2018-08-14T19:38:15  <jonasschnelli> I guess using the word encryption when it comes to the v2 transport would not be entirely wrong though
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369 2018-08-14T19:38:59  <sipa> well encryption certainly protects against certain attacks, but not nearly all the ones that people think of when you say encryption :)
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371 2018-08-14T19:39:20  <gmaxwell> Yea, it's more than encrypion, also encryption implies properties that it doesn't provide.
372 2018-08-14T19:39:42  <gmaxwell> e.g. the oppturnistic encryption does not prevent MITM.
373 2018-08-14T19:40:28  <jonasschnelli> It eventually does prevent from MITM because an MITM would be easy to detect, but it does not protect from MITM
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375 2018-08-14T19:41:15  <sipa> not without somewhat deployed authentication
376 2018-08-14T19:41:33  <jonasschnelli> Yes
377 2018-08-14T19:41:54  <gmaxwell> in any case, we'll want to be able to provide arguments to addnode and connect later for auth keys.
378 2018-08-14T19:42:07  <jonasschnelli> With the "stealth handshake" (the very first 32byte message/key exchange), is there anything we should plan for in case we want to add something like RLWE to the handshake
379 2018-08-14T19:42:18  <jonasschnelli> +?
380 2018-08-14T19:42:37  <gmaxwell> If we did something like add rwle we could establish the secp256k1 handshake first and then inside that stream upgrade.
381 2018-08-14T19:43:27  *** bytting has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
382 2018-08-14T19:44:40  <jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: wouldn't that partially break the "stealth" component (if we assume ecdh in secp256k1 is broken) since the inner 2nd handshake would probably require standard p2p message encryption?
383 2018-08-14T19:45:12  <sipa> jonasschnelli: not more than the current secp stealth component is broken by being sent in cleartest
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385 2018-08-14T19:45:39  <gmaxwell> ^ plus the 'stealth's is pretty weak, it's mostly just making harder to use dumb pattern matching to block.
386 2018-08-14T19:47:16  <jonasschnelli> We could allow additional dummy data in the encryption handshake as we do in the v2 message encoding protocol to make DPI harder
387 2018-08-14T19:47:27  <gmaxwell> hm. it really would be much easier if the initial handshake had a flag. e.g. [ecdh key][byte]  it could still block dumb pattern matching by making the byte xored with the last byte of the pubkey.
388 2018-08-14T19:48:21  <gmaxwell> kinda irritating to add RLWE after the fact, sadly.
389 2018-08-14T19:48:58  <jonasschnelli> I think the change is already pretty huge,... I think adding more should be avoided
390 2018-08-14T19:49:04  <jonasschnelli> The tor argument "collect now, decrypt later" may not be applicable 1:1 to bitcoin
391 2018-08-14T19:49:25  <jonasschnelli> Especially as long as there are no private p2p extensions and an internal auth mechanism
392 2018-08-14T19:49:42  <jonasschnelli> IMO deploying RLWE together with auth could make sense
393 2018-08-14T19:50:30  <sipa> how much code is it?
394 2018-08-14T19:51:05  <jonasschnelli> Right now +1,563/-178 (incomplete, missing tests)
395 2018-08-14T19:51:15  <gmaxwell> RWLE is small, one sec.
396 2018-08-14T19:52:07  <jonasschnelli> I guess the new code is very critical. Must be review profound
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398 2018-08-14T19:56:46  <gmaxwell> sipa: the ref implementation of newhope appears to be Total Physical Source Lines of Code (SLOC)                = 1,347
399 2018-08-14T19:56:51  <gmaxwell> which includes some tests and stuff.
400 2018-08-14T19:56:59  <gmaxwell> obviously it's bigger with the AVX versions and whatnot.
401 2018-08-14T19:57:46  <jonasschnelli> I guess AVX for Chacha, Poly1305 and newhope could follow later?
402 2018-08-14T19:58:02  <gmaxwell> as far as security goes, the interfaces is really trivial, so it's easy to review that the worst risk it presents is not adding security, leaking something about its randomness, or being slow.
403 2018-08-14T19:58:16  <gmaxwell> It also has been deployed in _chrome_ as part of an expirement with ssl.
404 2018-08-14T19:58:47  <gmaxwell> (they made an expiremental handshake for SSL that did the H(ECDH||newhope) thing.
405 2018-08-14T19:58:59  <gmaxwell> implementation is here: https://github.com/newhopecrypto/newhope-usenix/tree/master/ref
406 2018-08-14T19:59:40  <gmaxwell> I think the worst outcome from deploying it is that a month after wide deployment, the security is broken completely and we're stuck carrying it around (and wasting cpu cycles on it) even though it does nothing. :P
407 2018-08-14T20:00:27  <jonasschnelli> I somehow would prefer a two step implementation (and eventually also specification) approach from current v1 non encrypted network protocol to a quantum safe v2 (or v2.1) protocol
408 2018-08-14T20:00:50  <gmaxwell> ah, the torref/toravx implementations are apparently constant time.
409 2018-08-14T20:01:26  <jonasschnelli> Is there an anti DPI argument for using 32byte keyhandshakes rather then 64byte?
410 2018-08-14T20:01:33  <gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: sad thing is that the quantum safe thing is probably not worth doing on its own.
411 2018-08-14T20:01:51  <gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: what would the extra 64 bytes be?
412 2018-08-14T20:01:56  <gmaxwell> er extra 32.
413 2018-08-14T20:02:32  <jonasschnelli> if we want to add a flag but want to avoid 33bytes (or 34) due to DPI issues, we could pad up to 64?
414 2018-08-14T20:03:22  <gmaxwell> I don't think we want to avoid 33. We want to avoid fixed bytes. E.g. "if bytes 32-45 are 0xdeadbeef... reject"
415 2018-08-14T20:04:24  <jonasschnelli> Oh that. So the xoring with the last pubkey byte for the flag could then be accptable... I think
416 2018-08-14T20:04:59  <gmaxwell> right.
417 2018-08-14T20:05:08  <jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: why is upgrading the handshake later to include newhope be "not worth doing on its own"?
418 2018-08-14T20:05:43  <jonasschnelli> you mean the additional (questionable) security versus the deployment hassle?
419 2018-08-14T20:05:48  <sipa> i think upgrading the transport can be upgraded later easily enough that we don't need to rush including it right now
420 2018-08-14T20:06:01  <gmaxwell> because the security benefit is quite conjectural. so taking a network upgrade cycle, with incompatiblities and stuff, to maybe gain nothing.
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422 2018-08-14T20:06:19  <gmaxwell> So for example I think to do newhope nicely later, just a flag isn't enough.
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424 2018-08-14T20:06:33  <gmaxwell> because you want the initator to send their DH value in the first message.
425 2018-08-14T20:07:03  <gmaxwell> well I don't think we need to rush for sure. But if nothing else it's useful to think about how we would take the next step.
426 2018-08-14T20:07:19  <gmaxwell> So lemme talk though my thought process a bit.
427 2018-08-14T20:07:24  <jonasschnelli> what if the flag comes first to the message content and length can change later?
428 2018-08-14T20:08:13  <gmaxwell> earlier today I was thinking "we could deploy newhope by just brining up the secp256k1 encryption, then sending a rekey message that triggers upgrading."  but then I realized that runs into the problem we had before of having to do the keying twice-- once for each direction.
429 2018-08-14T20:09:06  <gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: how does the recipent even know the length?
430 2018-08-14T20:09:23  <gmaxwell> (if its not fixed)
431 2018-08-14T20:09:42  <sipa> wahaha, the low-security version of newhope is called jarjar
432 2018-08-14T20:09:54  <jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: right now,... is just looks for 32bytes, if it matches a version message, it transforms the bytes into a legacy v1 message container
433 2018-08-14T20:10:08  <jonasschnelli> (and continues with legacy protocol)
434 2018-08-14T20:10:21  <jonasschnelli> if not a version message, it tried the handshake
435 2018-08-14T20:10:28  <jonasschnelli> *tries
436 2018-08-14T20:11:00  <sipa> that seems overly complicated
437 2018-08-14T20:11:12  <gmaxwell> okay, so your point is that there could be extra data, but how does a current client know to ignore the extradata? e.g. why won't that just look like an invalid encryption once the handshake completes.
438 2018-08-14T20:11:21  <jonasschnelli> sipa: idea how to make this simpler?
439 2018-08-14T20:11:31  <sipa> i think you should just assume a connection is encrypted if the flag is set, and it will fail if it turns out it wasn't encrypted
440 2018-08-14T20:11:44  <sipa> at which point you just disconnect and try another peer
441 2018-08-14T20:12:02  <jonasschnelli> sipa: I thought we want a mode where encryption is optional
442 2018-08-14T20:12:09  <gmaxwell> It is optional.
443 2018-08-14T20:12:51  <gmaxwell> sipa: how does this avoid an attack where the first peer you connect to gives you the encryption flag set for everyone, causing you to be unable to connect to most of the network?
444 2018-08-14T20:14:04  <jonasschnelli> I can't follow. That would mean we drop every connection that failes to do a handshake (think of SPV clients, etc.)?
445 2018-08-14T20:14:21  <sipa> jonasschnelli: ah, for incoming connections!
446 2018-08-14T20:14:22  <sipa> ugh
447 2018-08-14T20:14:32  <gmaxwell> I had the same confusion as sipa.
448 2018-08-14T20:14:33  <jonasschnelli> Outgoind is easy
449 2018-08-14T20:14:58  <jonasschnelli> Incomming IMHO must be ready to detect a handshake OR a version legacy msg
450 2018-08-14T20:15:22  <sipa> unless they're separate ports or something like that... but yeah
451 2018-08-14T20:15:53  <jonasschnelli> But code wise its simple: buffer the first 32bytes, check if it is (very likely) a version message and migrate the message type to a legacy message
452 2018-08-14T20:15:57  <jonasschnelli> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/edfbd082af48f3a8f4447083e847e67aa4b2a40b#diff-9a82240fe7dfe86564178691cc57f2f1R791
453 2018-08-14T20:16:16  <jonasschnelli> (& avoid pubkeys that start with the network magic & 'version')
454 2018-08-14T20:16:30  <sipa> ah yes, that seems reasonable
455 2018-08-14T20:17:05  <jonasschnelli> If the handshake flag would be the first byte, and the xor key the second, we could read to bytes and figure out if we need to buffer 64 or 32
456 2018-08-14T20:17:10  <sipa> i think it could just be "pubkeys cannot start with the network magic"
457 2018-08-14T20:18:11  <jonasschnelli> Wouldn't that reduce the possible key-space by 2^28?
458 2018-08-14T20:18:21  <jonasschnelli> I guess I'm wrong though. :)
459 2018-08-14T20:19:12  <sipa> from 255 bits to 254.999999999664 bits of entropy
460 2018-08-14T20:19:24  <gmaxwell> and not in a useful way that helps attacks regardless.
461 2018-08-14T20:20:24  <jonasschnelli> Okay. I see
462 2018-08-14T20:20:45  <jonasschnelli> Is using the first pubkey bytes as flag xor key reasonable?
463 2018-08-14T20:21:16  <sipa> can't the flag be inside the encrypted stream?
464 2018-08-14T20:21:43  <jonasschnelli> It can, but we then would assume that ECDH must always be done
465 2018-08-14T20:21:49  <sipa> i think that's fine
466 2018-08-14T20:21:57  <gmaxwell> now we wind back to my prior comment about upgrading and synchronizing both directions.
467 2018-08-14T20:22:08  <sipa> i don't mean a flag to signal upgrading
468 2018-08-14T20:22:14  <jonasschnelli> I guess then we don't need a flag, we can handle it with messages then
469 2018-08-14T20:22:16  <sipa> just a flag that says "this is protocol version X"
470 2018-08-14T20:22:23  <gmaxwell> I think it's fine if ECDH is always done.
471 2018-08-14T20:22:25  <sipa> if you don't understand the flag, disconnect
472 2018-08-14T20:22:39  <jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: why is re-keying in both directions a problem?
473 2018-08-14T20:22:51  <sipa> and in a new version, the RWLE can be mandatory in both directions, with no synchronization issues
474 2018-08-14T20:22:53  <gmaxwell> twice the computation and overhead.
475 2018-08-14T20:23:03  <jonasschnelli> AFAIK the current rekeying can only be initiated by the encryption responder (server) by sending a "rekey" message
476 2018-08-14T20:23:15  <sipa> both parties should be able to rekey
477 2018-08-14T20:23:24  <sipa> or it should be automatic after a certain amount of data
478 2018-08-14T20:23:40  <jonasschnelli> Yes. 1GB is currently the specs and not below 10s
479 2018-08-14T20:23:49  <gmaxwell> sipa: I pointed out before that we ought to support time based so that we get forward compromise resistance on low traffic links.
480 2018-08-14T20:24:11  <sipa> also, is rekeying just hashing the existing encryption key, or is it a new ECDH negotiation?
481 2018-08-14T20:24:17  <jonasschnelli> just hashing
482 2018-08-14T20:24:18  <gmaxwell> it should be the former.
483 2018-08-14T20:24:20  <gmaxwell> right.
484 2018-08-14T20:24:24  <sipa> okay
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486 2018-08-14T20:24:31  <gmaxwell> I don't see any value in repeating ECDH for incremental rekeying.
487 2018-08-14T20:24:41  <sipa> yeah
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489 2018-08-14T20:25:15  <gmaxwell> in any case, if your intention is to encrypt the protocol version that means the initator cannot send a version without an extra roundtrip.
490 2018-08-14T20:25:34  <sipa> i don't think that matters
491 2018-08-14T20:25:34  <gmaxwell> I guess we don't really care too much about roundtrips, but it's the consequence.
492 2018-08-14T20:25:43  <sipa> the responder picks the version of the protocl
493 2018-08-14T20:25:50  <sipa> of the initiator doesn't like it, disconnect
494 2018-08-14T20:25:53  <gmaxwell> but the initator has to offer.
495 2018-08-14T20:26:09  <gmaxwell> or the responder will pick something the initator doesn't support, gratitiously.
496 2018-08-14T20:26:23  <sipa> that's no different than now
497 2018-08-14T20:26:50  <gmaxwell> So say, for example, you deploy newhope on your node... now you lose crypto to all existing peers? because you pick newhope and then they drop you?
498 2018-08-14T20:27:19  <sipa> ah yes, i see; there is an assymetry in knowledge
499 2018-08-14T20:27:33  <sipa> the initiator can be expected to know what the responder supports beforehand, but not the other way around
500 2018-08-14T20:28:57  <jonasschnelli> Would that be an argument for the flag at the very beginning of the handshake?
501 2018-08-14T20:29:30  <gmaxwell> or, it's just something that we'd have to handle with an additional round trip.
502 2018-08-14T20:29:48  <sipa> i think that's fine
503 2018-08-14T20:30:38  <gmaxwell> e.g. ecdh->   <-ecdh,enc(<flags>, extradata like a new hope handshake)  ->enc(flags, payload)...
504 2018-08-14T20:30:38  <jonasschnelli> But I currently don't know how to handle the re-key sync problem,.. I guess dropping all messages after peer has sent the "rekey" message until it gots the "rekey-ack" response is a no go
505 2018-08-14T20:31:06  <gmaxwell> the rekey is determinstic.  it should just be you send a rekey message and then the very next byte is encrypted with the next key.
506 2018-08-14T20:31:19  <sipa> and do it separately for both directions
507 2018-08-14T20:31:20  <gmaxwell> And have the rekey operate independantly for each direction.
508 2018-08-14T20:31:39  <gmaxwell> rekeys are cheap, they're fine to do independantly.
509 2018-08-14T20:31:41  <jonasschnelli> Ah yes. That would work.
510 2018-08-14T20:31:49  <gmaxwell> I want to avoid doing DH protocols independantly even for a newhope upgrade though.
511 2018-08-14T20:32:04  <sipa> there could also be a reqrekey message message, which requests that the other party do a rekey, but it has no effect on the protocol until they respond with a rekey
512 2018-08-14T20:32:59  <gmaxwell> sipa: I think instead you can just say that you have to do at least one rekey between two rekeys by the other side.
513 2018-08-14T20:33:01  <jonasschnelli> or could an initiated rekey from peer A requires an rekeying from peer B within a timeout of X?
514 2018-08-14T20:33:21  <gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: then you get into a rekey looop for a link with latency higher than X. :P :P
515 2018-08-14T20:33:44  <gmaxwell> But just saying that you must rekey if you have seen two rekeys in the other direction since the last time you rekeyed, I think doesn't have that problem.
516 2018-08-14T20:33:44  <jonasschnelli> heh... on dump implementations, yes. But point taken.
517 2018-08-14T20:34:54  <gmaxwell> or don't even worry about it and just specify that you must rekey after 1hr or 1GB (whichever comes first). And anyone who doesn't is non-conforming and if anyone cares, they could start banning based on the behavior.
518 2018-08-14T20:35:25  <jonasschnelli> Yes. Seems the be required anyways.
519 2018-08-14T20:36:11  <jonasschnelli> Okay. Thanks. Going back to the "drawing board" (specs and impl.).
520 2018-08-14T20:37:15  <sipa> i guess a rekey request is pointless; the other party could obey the request, but still keep the old encryption key in memory
521 2018-08-14T20:39:29  <gmaxwell> yep.
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