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 57 2018-11-28T03:13:28  <qwe> .
 58 2018-11-28T03:13:33  <qwe> hello
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104 2018-11-28T06:15:55  <meshcollider> sipa: in your GetAffectedKeys PR, it will always return the pubkey in the case of P2PK or similar won't it
105 2018-11-28T06:16:29  <meshcollider> Even if it's not in the wallet
106 2018-11-28T06:20:24  <meshcollider> I guess thats ok actually
107 2018-11-28T06:26:52  <sipa> yes
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119 2018-11-28T06:47:22  <NicolasDorier> Hi everybody. I am trying to find a user friendly way to share a UTXO set with raspberry pi of non technical users.
120 2018-11-28T06:47:46  <NicolasDorier> At first I was thinking to do https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13713#issuecomment-442333282
121 2018-11-28T06:48:15  <NicolasDorier> however this seems complicated, and not possible today
122 2018-11-28T06:49:07  <sipa> there was a PR for adding a dump utxo set to the rest interface
123 2018-11-28T06:49:31  <sipa> but it required a non-released libevent or so
124 2018-11-28T06:49:41  <NicolasDorier> so instead I was thinking the following: What about Bitcoin Core share the txoutset hash on bitcoincore website or twitter or whatever (like every 1000 blocks). At BTCPay level, I would show the UTXOSet of their own node and check against the website
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127 2018-11-28T06:49:48  <NicolasDorier> and display a warning if that differ
128 2018-11-28T06:50:26  <NicolasDorier> So the user could fast sync from untrusted source, and would get a warning if that differ from Bitcoin Core website/twitter or whatever publish mechanism
129 2018-11-28T06:50:29  <sipa> nack, we're not creating a blessed utxo set hash
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131 2018-11-28T06:50:41  <sipa> way too much power for abuse
132 2018-11-28T06:51:17  <gmaxwell> ouch no, even suggesting stuff like that makes me feel really negative about the fact that the sotware even has a utxo hash at all.
133 2018-11-28T06:51:18  <NicolasDorier> Well this won't break anybody software. I could make this check only once as well
134 2018-11-28T06:51:54  <NicolasDorier> I see
135 2018-11-28T06:52:01  <sipa> NicolasDorier: just the mere concept of having soke sort of 'official' utxo set hash sounds unacceotablw to me
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137 2018-11-28T06:52:16  <sipa> *some *unacceptable
138 2018-11-28T06:52:19  <gmaxwell> esp since we now have also seen what has happened with "check utxo" like validation in ethereum, -- it's become impratical to validate ethereum without just blindly trusting utxo hashes.
139 2018-11-28T06:53:14  <NicolasDorier> Yes I can understand. I am just worried that right now what we will see with those "Bitcoin Core in a box" is blind reliance on a pre-shipped UTXO Set
140 2018-11-28T06:53:48  <NicolasDorier> which is even worse than publishing your UTXO Set hash somewhere public and people could check it only once
141 2018-11-28T06:53:51  <sipa> i think we can probably at some point have a utxo set hash in the software, if it's accompanied with the usual review cycles, including automated CI that recomputes it... on a scale of twice a year
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143 2018-11-28T06:54:23  <NicolasDorier> I think that would be acceptable
144 2018-11-28T06:54:29  <gmaxwell> NicolasDorier: if the "bitcoin core in a box" then the entire software could do arbritary things, the hash it gives is meaningless.
145 2018-11-28T06:54:54  <sipa> but then it's not just "whoever controls the website", but the same trust level as people already have in the sofrware anyway
146 2018-11-28T06:55:02  <gmaxwell> yes, an assume valid like thing would be fine, works like regular sotware review.
147 2018-11-28T06:55:08  <gmaxwell> and regular software integrity.
148 2018-11-28T06:55:46  <gmaxwell> (esp since its so trivial to review, it doesn't even increase review surface)
149 2018-11-28T06:56:18  <NicolasDorier> This would be perfect.
150 2018-11-28T06:57:58  <NicolasDorier> The point I try to solve right now is that with BTCPay I am shipping a docker-compose that everybody can run easily. All images can be independently reviewed and built by yourself if you want. This now works on raspberry pi, and I want to guide people on how to use it on raspberry. But the sync time makes it impossible, so I am searching a good enough solution better than just shipping an untrusted utxohash
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153 2018-11-28T06:58:24  <NicolasDorier> such hash in the source code would be perfect
154 2018-11-28T06:59:03  <NicolasDorier> especially because this check has to be done only once
155 2018-11-28T06:59:17  <NicolasDorier> only when importing an outside utxoset
156 2018-11-28T07:00:21  <NicolasDorier> "Searching a good enough solution better than just shipping an untrusted utxo set" I mean
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158 2018-11-28T07:01:22  <NicolasDorier> actually does not even has to be part of bitcoind process
159 2018-11-28T07:01:56  <NicolasDorier> it could just be a separate utility "bitcoinutxosetcheck utxoset.tar"
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163 2018-11-28T07:21:23  <NicolasDorier> mmmh you know what. Actually I will just add in BTCPay a way to get the current UTXOSet hash, so someone who imported an untrusted UTXO set for his raspberry PI, can cross check with another of his own node fully synched server from beginning.
164 2018-11-28T07:21:50  <NicolasDorier> Or just cross check with a friend
165 2018-11-28T07:22:21  <NicolasDorier> that's good enough
166 2018-11-28T07:22:34  <NicolasDorier> and without controversy
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172 2018-11-28T07:34:27  <NicolasDorier> Ok so I think I found the ideal UX.
173 2018-11-28T07:34:27  <NicolasDorier> I will add a feature in BTCPay to let people use an untrusted UTXO set.
174 2018-11-28T07:34:27  <NicolasDorier> BUT once the node is fully synched, I will show a warning popup which will never go away: "Please input the UTXO set hash of the current block".
175 2018-11-28T07:34:27  <NicolasDorier> I will not show the UTXO set hash of the untrusted node anywhere in BTCPay interface, so it will force them to search for it on a their own trusted node, or ask to a friend.
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177 2018-11-28T07:35:57  <NicolasDorier> I think this is even better UX than embedding known utxo hash set anywhere into bitcoin core.
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180 2018-11-28T07:37:40  <gmaxwell> I think that is severely worse.
181 2018-11-28T07:38:30  <gmaxwell> NicolasDorier: an integrated utxo 'assume valid' doesn't change the security model at all, -- if the software was malicious the user is screwed regardless.
182 2018-11-28T07:39:23  <gmaxwell> An "input one from somewhere" is almost effectively "hand blockchain.info(dejure) control over the network"-- the user then is screwed if the software is bad Or if some website is bad/hacked.
183 2018-11-28T07:39:52  <NicolasDorier> I want to protect against malicious untrusted utxo set, I assume the software is not malicious (as it can be compiled from sources by the user itself already)
184 2018-11-28T07:40:16  <gmaxwell> If you assume the software is not malicious then a hash in it is also not malicious.
185 2018-11-28T07:40:38  <NicolasDorier> argh
186 2018-11-28T07:40:48  <gmaxwell> Asking a website for the utxo hash is trusting that the website is not malicious-- might as well just have them process the payment.
187 2018-11-28T07:41:24  <NicolasDorier> Well your would need to compromise both the website utxo hash and the UTXO set untrusted archive
188 2018-11-28T07:41:29  <NicolasDorier> but yeah
189 2018-11-28T07:41:33  <NicolasDorier> shit :(
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194 2018-11-28T07:53:53  <kallewoof> Would a peer message "getutxosethash" which returned a block height and utxo set hash be a long term solution to this or is there a better alternative?
195 2018-11-28T07:54:50  <NicolasDorier> it is time consuming and ddos vector so :(
196 2018-11-28T07:55:03  <NicolasDorier> it does not solve the underlying issue either
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198 2018-11-28T07:56:51  <aj> if the trusted utxo set hash comes with the software, and is updated every ~6 months; then you'd download the software, get a utxo set hash that's say 2 to 8 months out of date, download the corresponding utxo set, verify it, then download 2-8 months of blocks since then, and you're set?
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201 2018-11-28T07:58:17  <NicolasDorier> @aj given you have a trusted node, fully synched. And as a reviewer, you want to check if this UTXO Set Hash is correct. How would you do?
202 2018-11-28T07:58:54  <NicolasDorier> I could code this hash inside BTCPay. But how other reviewer can be sure that it is not malicious
203 2018-11-28T07:59:08  <NicolasDorier> (given they have their own node)
204 2018-11-28T07:59:12  <aj> NicolasDorier: invalidateblock the block after it, and run the rpc call to get the hash?
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206 2018-11-28T08:00:13  <NicolasDorier> ah indeed that would work
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208 2018-11-28T08:00:55  <aj> (which i assume is gettxoutsetinfo -> hash_serialized_2 ?
209 2018-11-28T08:01:29  <NicolasDorier> aj: Another idea: They use my hash to sync a new node. Then they compare the utxoset to their own node
210 2018-11-28T08:01:54  <aj> if they have their own node, why don't they just copy their utxo set across?
211 2018-11-28T08:02:42  <NicolasDorier> because it is pain in the ass. I want a user friendly way to put a big UTXO set tar somewhere on the cloud that people starting a new raspberry pi can rely on to get synched quick
212 2018-11-28T08:04:26  <aj> NicolasDorier: that sounds fine, seems odd to expect them to already have a node is all
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214 2018-11-28T08:09:41  <NicolasDorier> aj: At least for the reviewers. People running those "bitcoin core in a box" are already blindly trusting binaries anyway.
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216 2018-11-28T08:10:59  <NicolasDorier> but if somebody takes time to review the code, I want him at least to be able to check that the hash I hard coded is not malicious given he has his own indendant node.
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218 2018-11-28T08:14:14  <sipa> NicolasDorier: i fear "user friendly" and "auditable full node security without central point of trust" are not really compatible
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221 2018-11-28T08:16:39  <aj> NicolasDorier: err? i was thinking in-a-box users blindly trust the hash, but the software automatically checks the utxo set they download matches the hash; that way reviewers don't generally have to download your utxo set at all (they just check the hash matches the one their node generates)
222 2018-11-28T08:19:35  <NicolasDorier> aj: The problem is, if I ship the UTXO Set up to block 500.000 there is no way in Core that the hash of this UTXO set match their node. The only way is that they take my UTXO Set up to 500.000, then let it sync to the latest block, then check that the two nodes (the one they trust, and the one where they used this UTXO set) match.
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224 2018-11-28T08:19:59  <NicolasDorier> "there is no way to *check in core" I mean
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226 2018-11-28T08:20:16  <sipa> why do you need the utxo set?
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228 2018-11-28T08:21:09  <NicolasDorier> sipa: well to check  the payments are real? :p
229 2018-11-28T08:21:43  <sipa> NicolasDorier: why do you need the historical utxo set?
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232 2018-11-28T08:22:47  <NicolasDorier> So that raspberry pi user can sync fast. They would download it the utxo set at block 500.000 then sync up to the latest block.
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234 2018-11-28T08:24:48  <sipa> NicolasDorier: i feel that introducing a convenient way to run a "full nkde" that relies on too centralized ways of determining that set is far worse than using a loght client
235 2018-11-28T08:24:51  <aj> NicolasDorier: if you're doing rc1 of your next release now, why wouldn't you pick a recent hash, say 200 blocks old like 551600? invalidateblock/txoutsetinfo only takes a couple of minutes to run to review that?
236 2018-11-28T08:25:25  <NicolasDorier> aj: yep true, this would work
237 2018-11-28T08:28:00  <aj> $ time (blk=$(bitcoin-cli getblockhash 551601); echo $blk; bitcoin-cli invalidateblock $blk; bitcoin-cli gettxoutsetinfo | grep hash_serial; bitcoin-cli reconsiderblock $blk)    # --> 666550387c3f5fa8e9353ce561fcee2a164022d31b97affd7c982388f19a4904as the hash, took about 1m12 all up
238 2018-11-28T08:28:15  <NicolasDorier> sipa: Given I trust my software and my software can check the tar shasum of the "historical utxoset at block 500.000", then it is fine.
239 2018-11-28T08:28:15  <NicolasDorier> Now how do I trust the software? By reviewing the code. But by reviewing the code I see this shasum of historical utxoset. How can I review this hash?
240 2018-11-28T08:28:15  <NicolasDorier> Either by doing what aj said (invalidateblock up to the height) or just using this UTXO set to sync up to now and cross check that UTXO set hash of this node is the same than another of my node that I fully synched from the beginning.
241 2018-11-28T08:28:47  <NicolasDorier> aj: though the invalidateblock is not possible if the node you trust is pruned
242 2018-11-28T08:29:01  <aj> NicolasDorier: going back a few hundred blocks should be fine even if it's pruned
243 2018-11-28T08:29:30  <NicolasDorier> Yes true, this would work as well
244 2018-11-28T08:31:04  <NicolasDorier> While I distribute the UTXO set centrally, and ship this hash in the product, anybody would be able to check against it.
245 2018-11-28T08:31:25  <sipa> i don't like "anyone can check"
246 2018-11-28T08:31:35  <sipa> people don't
247 2018-11-28T08:32:41  <gmaxwell> the ethereum ecosystem shows this pretty perfectly... node falls behind, blindly accept the state.
248 2018-11-28T08:33:47  <gmaxwell> people don't check.  And any that did would just check some centeralized website. The security in that case is pure pretext.
249 2018-11-28T08:33:57  <NicolasDorier> Well as people blindly run binaries shipped by core, and don't check they can reproduce the build. But at least checking this hash is easier than doign a gitian build.
250 2018-11-28T08:34:34  <gmaxwell> a lot of people do check that they can reproduce the build, and publish attestations too.
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252 2018-11-28T08:34:57  <NicolasDorier> then why would they not do it for the hash?
253 2018-11-28T08:34:58  <aj> sipa: the alternative to "don't check but can" that people will actually adopt is "don't check and can't" though, which seems worse...
254 2018-11-28T08:35:03  *** shesek has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
255 2018-11-28T08:35:18  <gmaxwell> I think it's not worse.
256 2018-11-28T08:35:20  <sipa> aj: that's fair
257 2018-11-28T08:35:36  <gmaxwell> a _dishonest_ security model is worse than being insecure in practice and lying to the whole world and yourself about it.
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259 2018-11-28T08:36:24  <gmaxwell> maybe more people should have given a shit since _2011_ that making it absurdly expensive to sync would be a problem.
260 2018-11-28T08:36:39  <gmaxwell> and instead worked to prevent that instead of taking an unsustainable load and doubling it.
261 2018-11-28T08:36:50  <gmaxwell> but whats past is past.
262 2018-11-28T08:36:59  <NicolasDorier> well this would have happened one day or another
263 2018-11-28T08:37:42  <sipa> NicolasDorier: just so we're talking about the same thing, i do not think it is inherently necessary that every full nkde forever validates all of history
264 2018-11-28T08:38:01  <gmaxwell> not necessarily,  e.g. the work by phantomcircuit and luke-jr that showed the maximum rate of blockchain increase that would have kept sync time constant under the assumption of some year over year percentage increase in sync performance.
265 2018-11-28T08:38:11  *** shesek has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
266 2018-11-28T08:38:29  <gmaxwell> in 2015 the figure for that would have been roughly 300kbyte blocks.
267 2018-11-28T08:38:51  <gmaxwell> in any case, water under the bridge.
268 2018-11-28T08:39:11  <gmaxwell> It sound like whats previously been proposed for utxo assumevalid would work fine for you, except it doesn't exist yet.
269 2018-11-28T08:39:17  <sipa> there are perfectly reasonable solutions to avoid that, including a deeply buried infrequently updated assumevalid utxo set hash
270 2018-11-28T08:39:44  <NicolasDorier> I would like at least that node which do not fully validate has a way to ring the bells if their utxo stop matching with other people, or with their own node on a different server which fully validated everything.
271 2018-11-28T08:39:51  <gmaxwell> Please do not poison the well by proposing "check against a website"... all that is going to do is create a big fight over it and cause people to also fight against more reasonable measures.
272 2018-11-28T08:40:15  <NicolasDorier> yeah no worry I won't do this
273 2018-11-28T08:40:27  <gmaxwell> if their software is malicious then there is no way they can count on it to warn them...
274 2018-11-28T08:42:15  <aj> gmaxwell: if their software isn't malicious but the utxo download site is, they could get a warning at least
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276 2018-11-28T08:44:23  <gmaxwell> aj: download site? it should be getting it from the network and checking it against the software.
277 2018-11-28T08:46:27  <aj> gmaxwell: maybe, but there's a lot more implementation to do for that
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280 2018-11-28T08:47:41  <aj> gmaxwell: well, unless you're happy with "network" being "torrent of the utxo set at a point in time"
281 2018-11-28T08:47:46  <gmaxwell> It's been implemented before.
282 2018-11-28T08:48:24  <aj> gmaxwell: for a utxo set up to 6 or 8 months old, or just the current (rolling) utxo set?
283 2018-11-28T08:48:31  <gmaxwell> I guess like actually improving the protocol might get in the way of five refactors a day.
284 2018-11-28T08:48:43  <sipa> come on
285 2018-11-28T08:48:57  <gmaxwell> aj: there was a snapshot one implemented previously.
286 2018-11-28T08:50:28  <gmaxwell> It has been _years_ now since we've made a protocol improvement, and when an need gets brought up for one it seems like it's just a question of how fast we could enable trusting a website...
287 2018-11-28T08:50:44  <gmaxwell> It's bad enough when people outside of regular development act helpless about limitations that could be improved.
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289 2018-11-28T08:51:23  <aj> gmaxwell: url or search term suggestion for the previous implementation?
290 2018-11-28T08:52:32  <gmaxwell> some randos github repo-- they didn't hang around and keep trying to contribute when their efforts didn't make prompt progress, I'm searching
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301 2018-11-28T09:15:38  <cjd> I was quite impressed by Peter's work on UTXO proofs
302 2018-11-28T09:17:12  <cjd> ( https://petertodd.org/2016/delayed-txo-commitments )
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304 2018-11-28T09:17:33  <midnightmagic> holy crap cjd is talking \o
305 2018-11-28T09:17:48  <cjd> hey midnight, long time no see :)
306 2018-11-28T09:17:57  <midnightmagic> :-)
307 2018-11-28T09:17:57  *** bitcoin-git has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
308 2018-11-28T09:17:57  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Mountains-and-rivers opened pull request #14825: 0.17 (master...0.17) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14825
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312 2018-11-28T09:18:17  <sipa> cjd: there has been more recent work around that too
313 2018-11-28T09:18:25  <cjd> oh? link?
314 2018-11-28T09:19:23  *** bitcoin-git has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
315 2018-11-28T09:19:23  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #14825: 0.17 (master...0.17) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14825
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317 2018-11-28T09:19:34  <sipa> cjd: at least bram cohen has come up with a hybrid nodes-still-keep-spentness-but-not-utxos-themselves (search for "utxo bitset")
318 2018-11-28T09:19:53  <sipa> adiabat has been working on a practical merkle tree based system
319 2018-11-28T09:20:30  <cjd> found this: https://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/sf-bitcoin-meetup/2017-07-08-bram-cohen-merkle-sets/
320 2018-11-28T09:20:32  <sipa> latest scaling bitcoin had a talk on improvements to cryptographic accumulators to make them more usable for this kind of application
321 2018-11-28T09:20:51  <sipa> yeah, it's in there; there is also a ml post
322 2018-11-28T09:21:26  <sipa> i have written a post on rolling utxo hashes (which don't permit compact proofs, but may help comparing utxo sets)
323 2018-11-28T09:22:03  *** promag has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
324 2018-11-28T09:22:48  <gmaxwell> aj: unfortunately the impl before came from someone who wasn't a regular so they didn't use our ordinary language to talk about it, so I'm having a damnd hard time grepping up the link.
325 2018-11-28T09:23:12  <sipa> gmaxwell: it was a bitcointalk post afaik
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327 2018-11-28T09:24:12  <cjd> I'm kind of cold on anything that requires shor attackable crypto at the infrastructure level, but that said I think a lot of these things are still using hashes
328 2018-11-28T09:24:37  <cjd> And I distinguish between infrastructure level (hashes, merkle trees etc) from the spending level (signing a transaction)
329 2018-11-28T09:26:00  <dongcarl> A v0 WitnessProgram with a size that's not 20 nor 32 bytes is still a valid WitnessProgram, but will fail, is that a correct distinction?
330 2018-11-28T09:26:11  <cjd> it would be nice to go all in on the wild crypto and be able to make everything anonymous, but I think that should be kept as an option to put your money into the black box and then take it out again, knowing that some major advancement in math or quantum computers might cause the black box to implode
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332 2018-11-28T09:26:44  <gmaxwell> sipa: ah, it was also several weeks of talk in IRC.
333 2018-11-28T09:26:51  <gmaxwell> which is what I was trying to find.
334 2018-11-28T09:27:12  <sipa> dongcarl: correct
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336 2018-11-28T09:27:38  <sipa> dongcarl: though i'm not sure that that distinction is observable
337 2018-11-28T09:28:19  <dongcarl> sipa: `CScript::IsWitnessProgram` seems to not check that a v0 WitnessProgram is either 20 or 32bytes
338 2018-11-28T09:28:23  <gmaxwell> as there is no input that will hash to match it.
339 2018-11-28T09:28:28  <sipa> dongcarl: correct
340 2018-11-28T09:28:45  <dongcarl> right right
341 2018-11-28T09:28:54  <gmaxwell> dongcarl: a complicated thing with consensus rules is "which of the infinite set of implied consensus rules should be called consensus rules"?
342 2018-11-28T09:29:10  <sipa> but the only effect of something being a witness output is that it means a witness can be present when spending it
343 2018-11-28T09:29:35  <sipa> however, in the case of a v0 with not-20/32 size, there is no valid spend
344 2018-11-28T09:30:08  <gmaxwell> like, yes maybe bitcoin core has a branch that checks the size and terminates... but without that branch it would still reject those cases because the hash function (a size triggered OR of two functions) will never match for inputs of other sizes.
345 2018-11-28T09:30:50  <sipa> right, operational semantics can differ from the validaty rules...
346 2018-11-28T09:31:15  <sipa> as in one (invalid) case we may check signatures and in another invalid case we reject before reaching that point
347 2018-11-28T09:31:20  <gmaxwell> like it will also fail if your input is PUSH("RICK") OP_ROLL, but we wouldn't say that we have a consensus rule that the witness scripthash can't be PUSH("RICK") OP_ROLL.
348 2018-11-28T09:31:44  <gmaxwell> Even if we were to add code to specifically catch that case because some clown was spamming with it and we thought it would be useful to fail faster.
349 2018-11-28T09:32:03  <gmaxwell> (or more often, because being specific can make the semantics more clear)
350 2018-11-28T09:32:31  <dongcarl> gmaxwell: ah... makes sense... some rules are stated, and some rules are the consequence of other rules
351 2018-11-28T09:32:59  <sipa> dongcarl: in any case, by the terminology of the BIP and the source code, yes, a v0 21-byte output is a witness output
352 2018-11-28T09:33:08  <gmaxwell> and sometimes we make implied rules concrete ... and then only later take them out again.
353 2018-11-28T09:33:29  <sipa> however, whether it is or not has no effect (i think!) on any consensus observable effect
354 2018-11-28T09:33:47  <gmaxwell> as which of the implied consensus rules we implement concretely is just an implementation choice...
355 2018-11-28T09:34:06  <gmaxwell> sipa: that probably has some effect on RPC outputs.
356 2018-11-28T09:34:33  <dongcarl> sipa: gotcha, I'm looking at the test case PR for `IsWitnessProgram`, so wanted to double check
357 2018-11-28T09:35:10  <dongcarl> gmaxwell: Soo... consensus is really just implementation?
358 2018-11-28T09:35:49  <sipa> dongcarl: ultimately, yes - but i don't think that's the conclusion here
359 2018-11-28T09:36:39  <sipa> there is a set of intended rules, but there are still many ways of mapping those rules to code that are all identical in terms of observable behavior
360 2018-11-28T09:37:19  <sipa> and the implentation may choose to make distinctions that don't exist in the observable rules
361 2018-11-28T09:37:57  <sipa> for example, bitcoin core will use a very different codepath for an ecdsa signature that is too long vs one that is just invalid
362 2018-11-28T09:37:59  <gmaxwell> I normally think of the consensus rules as the MINIMAL set of rules that implement the 'consensus functionality'.
363 2018-11-28T09:38:28  <sipa> but the rules that people understand the system has doesn't make this distinction at all
364 2018-11-28T09:39:01  <gmaxwell> For implementation reasons we don't implement "the consensus rules" we implement some isomorphic set of rules. They behave the same for consensus purposes, but have some implementation advantages.
365 2018-11-28T09:40:08  <gmaxwell> E.g. cheap tests for expensive failure conditions... like checking the length of a witness hash, we don't have to-- a wrong length won't ever agree with the hasher, but perhaps the code is more obviously correct if the lengths are checked.
366 2018-11-28T09:42:12  <cjd> This all reminds me of the recent(ish) work that was done at inria on modelling the SSL state machine
367 2018-11-28T09:42:38  <cjd> Source of that handful of attacks which were published in the past 3 years
368 2018-11-28T09:42:39  <dongcarl> Ahhhh okay I think I get it... Sometimes short-circuiting (even when consensus doesn't dictate it) can have advantages in terms of implementation
369 2018-11-28T09:43:10  <sipa> dongcarl: exactly
370 2018-11-28T09:43:25  <sipa> consensus only outputs "valid" or "invalid"
371 2018-11-28T09:43:34  <sipa> it doesn't even report why something was invalid
372 2018-11-28T09:44:11  <sipa> (though that may in some cases be obserable on the P2P protocol by bans and corruptionpossible flag)
373 2018-11-28T09:45:48  <gmaxwell> though thats also one of the reasons I don't like having things like reject reasons visible... they're hard to make stable without really confining the specifics of the implementation.
374 2018-11-28T09:46:02  <gmaxwell> "Your thing was wrong for 5 reasons, but we're only going to tell you one of them."
375 2018-11-28T09:46:51  <sipa> and after a refactor, we'll tell you about another one instead
376 2018-11-28T09:48:49  *** Guest80 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
377 2018-11-28T09:49:26  <Guest80> Hello!
378 2018-11-28T09:49:37  <Guest80> Anybody here?
379 2018-11-28T09:49:43  <gmaxwell> nope
380 2018-11-28T09:49:58  <Guest80> Funny...
381 2018-11-28T09:50:02  <Guest80> ;-)
382 2018-11-28T09:50:20  <dongcarl> gmaxwell: Huh... I was actually thinking that errors need error codes in Bitcoin... But perhaps that's a bad idea...
383 2018-11-28T09:50:26  <Guest80> Anybody here experienced with bitcoin core build?
384 2018-11-28T09:51:15  <Guest80> My simplified question is: Ho to build Windows installers?
385 2018-11-28T09:51:35  <dongcarl> Guest80: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/doc/build-windows.md
386 2018-11-28T09:51:47  <Guest80> I can build Windows binaries but they all Stand Alone ones.
387 2018-11-28T09:51:50  *** shesek has quit IRC
388 2018-11-28T09:52:11  <Guest80> Thanks, I'm familiar with the document you linked.
389 2018-11-28T09:52:53  <dongcarl> Guest80: you can build a Windows installer using other tools, it's not in the scope of the project I don't think
390 2018-11-28T09:53:35  <Guest80> I'm here because that document is no help at all.
391 2018-11-28T09:53:40  <Guest80> Thanks!
392 2018-11-28T09:53:42  <sipa> dongcarl: libconsensus will give you error codes
393 2018-11-28T09:53:56  <sipa> for script validity at least
394 2018-11-28T09:54:04  <Guest80> Bitcoin.org has Windows installers. They build them somehow.
395 2018-11-28T09:54:29  <sipa> Guest80: using a deterministic build environment
396 2018-11-28T09:54:43  <sipa> which is fully scripted
397 2018-11-28T09:54:55  <sipa> but runs in a linux vm
398 2018-11-28T09:55:10  <dongcarl> sipa: Oh cool... So how does it decide what error to point out?
399 2018-11-28T09:55:19  <Guest80> I build under Ubuntu 10.04.1 LTS
400 2018-11-28T09:55:36  <Guest80> That Ubuntu runs as a VM.
401 2018-11-28T09:55:37  <gmaxwell> dongcarl: well I don't like them, because either we don't keep them stable which maybe breaks things. ... or we have an implementation suicide pact where it's really hard to change stuff just due to preserving errors.
402 2018-11-28T09:55:41  <dongcarl> Or does it suffer from the problem of pointing out the first problem it finds and probably will point out a different one if we refactor?
403 2018-11-28T09:55:53  <gmaxwell> exactly
404 2018-11-28T09:56:46  <sipa> thankfully, that part of the consensus code (script interpreter) does not need much changes
405 2018-11-28T09:57:49  <dongcarl> Gotcha
406 2018-11-28T09:58:27  <sipa> the types of failures around blkcks and transactions changs more often
407 2018-11-28T10:04:16  <promag> sipa: GetAffectedKeys could be GetAffectedPubKeys?
408 2018-11-28T10:04:18  <Guest80> Again, the link you linked is irrelevant.
409 2018-11-28T10:04:44  <Guest80> I am building for Windows target under Ubuntu.
410 2018-11-28T10:05:06  <Guest80> I am not building under Windows.
411 2018-11-28T10:05:34  <Guest80> I can build "by the book". That's not the problem.
412 2018-11-28T10:05:34  <sipa> Guest80: yes, follow the gitian guide
413 2018-11-28T10:05:47  <sipa> promag: it returns key kds
414 2018-11-28T10:05:50  <sipa> key ids
415 2018-11-28T10:05:58  <sipa> key ids identify keypairs
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417 2018-11-28T10:06:46  <Guest80> The problem is that the results of the build are Stand Alone Windows binaries, and not the Windows installer.
418 2018-11-28T10:07:17  <sipa> gitian also produces the installer
419 2018-11-28T10:07:27  <Guest80> And I need the Windows installer.
420 2018-11-28T10:07:47  <Guest80> Well, it does not produce the installer.
421 2018-11-28T10:07:55  <sipa> yes it does
422 2018-11-28T10:08:07  <gmaxwell> I believe the gitian build makes the installer.  You need to get the extracted signatures for it to produce a signed installer.
423 2018-11-28T10:08:12  <Guest80> It collects everythin in one folder, but none of themis the installer.
424 2018-11-28T10:09:09  <Guest80> If the Gitanian build makes the installer than it does it with a special switch or something. NOT by default.
425 2018-11-28T10:09:39  <sipa> https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gitian.sigs/blob/master/0.17.0-win-unsigned/achow101/bitcoin-win-0.17-build.assert
426 2018-11-28T10:09:58  <sipa> that's the build assertion for achow101's build of 0.17.0
427 2018-11-28T10:10:05  <sipa> the output includes the installer
428 2018-11-28T10:10:20  <Guest80> Thanks!
429 2018-11-28T10:10:32  <Guest80> Thanks sipa
430 2018-11-28T10:10:35  <sipa> so i believe you are wrong
431 2018-11-28T10:10:53  <Guest80> Thanks gmaxwell
432 2018-11-28T10:11:06  <sipa> but i have not run gitian builds in a while myself
433 2018-11-28T10:22:14  <promag> sipa: does the branch comes from face/off movie? 201810_die_caffectedkeysvisitor_die
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435 2018-11-28T10:25:11  <Guest80> Again, the Bitcoin.org can have whatever build system, it doesn't help to see the result of their build.
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437 2018-11-28T10:26:02  <Guest80> I'm still with the Gitanian build that does not produce installers.
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442 2018-11-28T10:44:23  <sipa> promag: i believe it's been in a number of popular media works, including the simpsons
443 2018-11-28T10:47:38  <promag> sipa: is this worth it https://github.com/promag/bitcoin/commit/59f62571bc09df01373295d9aac5a485a2ee2eaa ?
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449 2018-11-28T11:17:07  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] promag opened pull request #14826: Avoid expanding descriptor scriptPubKeys (master...2018-11-faster-descriptor-expand) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14826
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452 2018-11-28T11:29:36  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] 3s3s opened pull request #14827: remove fCheckDuplicateInputs (master...master) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14827
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466 2018-11-28T12:26:21  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] promag opened pull request #14828: qt: Remove hidden columns in coin control dialog (master...2018-11-coincontroldialog) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14828
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487 2018-11-28T14:15:04  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #14827: remove fCheckDuplicateInputs (master...master) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14827
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491 2018-11-28T14:31:39  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto closed pull request #14817: qt: Remove unnecessary columns in Coin Selection window (#11811) (master...20181126-fix-hidden-columns) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14817
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508 2018-11-28T15:40:57  *** promag_ is now known as promag
509 2018-11-28T15:42:32  *** bitcoin-git has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
510 2018-11-28T15:42:33  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/600b85bb4172...9ebfe0e92737
511 2018-11-28T15:42:34  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 29aeed1 Luke Dashjr: Bugfix: test/functional/mempool_accept: Ensure oversize transaction is actually oversize...
512 2018-11-28T15:42:34  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 9ebfe0e MarcoFalke: Merge #14819: Bugfix: test/functional/mempool_accept: Ensure oversize transaction is actually oversize...
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516 2018-11-28T15:44:09  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #14819: Bugfix: test/functional/mempool_accept: Ensure oversize transaction is actually oversize (master...bugfix_test_mempool_accept) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14819
517 2018-11-28T15:44:09  *** bitcoin-git has left #bitcoin-core-dev
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520 2018-11-28T16:09:14  *** bitcoin-git has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
521 2018-11-28T16:09:15  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 3 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/9ebfe0e92737...0a452d02cebb
522 2018-11-28T16:09:15  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master b312cd7 practicalswift: Add missing locking annotations
523 2018-11-28T16:09:16  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 4894133 practicalswift: Add missing lock in CNode::copyStats(...)
524 2018-11-28T16:09:16  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 0a452d0 MarcoFalke: Merge #13123: net: Add Clang thread safety annotations for guarded variables in the networking code...
525 2018-11-28T16:09:17  *** bitcoin-git has left #bitcoin-core-dev
526 2018-11-28T16:09:41  *** bitcoin-git has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
527 2018-11-28T16:09:41  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #13123: net: Add Clang thread safety annotations for guarded variables in the networking code (master...net-guarded-by) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13123
528 2018-11-28T16:09:41  *** bitcoin-git has left #bitcoin-core-dev
529 2018-11-28T16:12:31  *** bitcoin-git has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
530 2018-11-28T16:12:31  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #14487: Constexpr Everything Part 1: Constants (master...patch-3) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14487
531 2018-11-28T16:12:31  *** bitcoin-git has left #bitcoin-core-dev
532 2018-11-28T16:15:22  *** bitcoin-git has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
533 2018-11-28T16:15:23  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/0a452d02cebb...60b20c869f8d
534 2018-11-28T16:15:23  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa5cef0 MarcoFalke: bench: Destroy wallet txs instead of leaking their memory
535 2018-11-28T16:15:24  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 60b20c8 MarcoFalke: Merge #14822: bench: Destroy wallet txs instead of leaking their memory...
536 2018-11-28T16:15:24  *** bitcoin-git has left #bitcoin-core-dev
537 2018-11-28T16:15:50  <promag> https://ci.appveyor.com/project/DrahtBot/bitcoin/builds/20618902
538 2018-11-28T16:16:27  <promag> yet another connection problem
539 2018-11-28T16:16:33  *** bitcoin-git has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
540 2018-11-28T16:16:34  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #14822: bench: Destroy wallet txs instead of leaking their memory (master...Mf1811-benchWalletTxs) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14822
541 2018-11-28T16:16:34  *** bitcoin-git has left #bitcoin-core-dev
542 2018-11-28T16:17:47  <promag> please consider #14670
543 2018-11-28T16:17:49  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14670 | http: Fix HTTP server shutdown by promag · Pull Request #14670 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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583 2018-11-28T20:08:58  <arubi> ##hwi is invite only now?
584 2018-11-28T20:14:19  <gwillen> arubi: I have registered a complaint
585 2018-11-28T20:14:29  <arubi> cheers
586 2018-11-28T20:14:40  <gwillen> I can't actually speak there so I registered it via other means :-P
587 2018-11-28T20:14:52  <arubi> :)
588 2018-11-28T20:15:10  <gwillen> provoostenator: actually I suppose pinging you here works too ^
589 2018-11-28T20:18:01  *** dviola has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
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594 2018-11-28T20:33:04  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] practicalswift opened pull request #14829: travis: Enable functional tests in the ThreadSanitizer (TSan) build job (master...tsan) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14829
595 2018-11-28T20:33:04  *** bitcoin-git has left #bitcoin-core-dev
596 2018-11-28T20:35:20  <promag> another "An established connection was aborted by the software in your host machine" https://ci.appveyor.com/project/DrahtBot/bitcoin/builds/20621323
597 2018-11-28T20:37:13  <instagibbs> huh, I'm not crazy, default debug flags were changed 9 months ago
598 2018-11-28T20:37:28  <instagibbs> #13005
599 2018-11-28T20:37:31  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/13005 | Make --enable-debug to pick better options by practicalswift · Pull Request #13005 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
600 2018-11-28T20:37:47  <instagibbs> I find it *far* less useful for debugging
601 2018-11-28T20:38:11  <instagibbs> --enable-super-serious-debug concept ACK ;P
602 2018-11-28T20:40:33  *** elichai2 has quit IRC
603 2018-11-28T20:43:28  <instagibbs> I will shut up about it now, with an issue open.
604 2018-11-28T20:47:44  <instagibbs> #14380 ready for merge?
605 2018-11-28T20:47:47  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14380 | fix assert crash when specified change output spend size is unknown by instagibbs · Pull Request #14380 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
606 2018-11-28T20:49:34  *** bitcoin-git has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
607 2018-11-28T20:49:34  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] vim88 opened pull request #14831: Scripts and tools: Use #!/usr/bin/env bash instead of #!/bin/bash. (master...proper_shebang) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14831
608 2018-11-28T20:49:34  *** bitcoin-git has left #bitcoin-core-dev
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610 2018-11-28T20:50:46  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] ch4ot1c opened pull request #14832: docs: Add more Doxygen information to Developer Notes (master...improvement/doxygen-docs) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14832
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616 2018-11-28T20:58:55  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 13 new commits to 0.17: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/5150accdd2a7...9f556622c57d
617 2018-11-28T20:58:55  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/0.17 bb90695 gustavonalle: [wallet] Ensure wallet is unlocked before signing...
618 2018-11-28T20:58:56  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/0.17 85aacc4 Walter: Add autogen.sh in ARM Cross-compilation...
619 2018-11-28T20:58:56  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/0.17 9406502 Kaz Wesley: add a test demonstrating an overflow in a deserialization edge case...
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624 2018-11-28T21:14:42  <BlueMatt> #14380 looks merge-able + backport-able
625 2018-11-28T21:14:44  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14380 | fix assert crash when specified change output spend size is unknown by instagibbs · Pull Request #14380 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
626 2018-11-28T21:15:38  <BlueMatt> #14196 also looks merge-able (its against 0.17 and the upstream forward-port was merged)
627 2018-11-28T21:15:40  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14196 | [0.17][psbt] always drop the unnecessary utxo and convert non-witness utxo to witness when necessary by achow101 · Pull Request #14196 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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645 2018-11-28T22:18:57  <dongcarl> I see that kallewoof has posted a few clang static analyzer reports on the repo... Wondering if there's any effort to have a bot that does this automatically or have CI integration for this...
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664 2018-11-28T23:35:20  <kallewoof> I thought practicalswift was our clang static analyzer bot
665 2018-11-28T23:35:25  <kallewoof> Almost a joke :)
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