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62019-03-09T00:28:32 <sipa> gmaxwell: my formula is wrong
72019-03-09T00:29:28 <sipa> if a fraction p of n-sig transactions is made using lowr, then you would observe a fraction x = p + (1-p)*0.5^n of lowr transactions
82019-03-09T00:29:55 <sipa> so given x, p can be computed as (x*2^n - 1)/(2^n - 1)
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122019-03-09T00:41:39 <sipa> 2019-03-09T00:39:53.454594Z Stats LOWR 1: 1478633 0.06805
132019-03-09T00:41:40 <sipa> 2019-03-09T00:39:53.454601Z Stats LOWR 2: 444741 0.0659343
142019-03-09T00:41:40 <sipa> 2019-03-09T00:39:53.454611Z Stats LOWR 3: 70850 0.0976832
152019-03-09T00:41:40 <sipa> 2019-03-09T00:39:53.454618Z Stats LOWR 4: 53930 0.07754
162019-03-09T00:41:40 <sipa> 2019-03-09T00:39:53.454625Z Stats LOWR 5: 17363 0.121424
172019-03-09T00:41:46 <sipa> for the last 1000 blocks
182019-03-09T00:42:07 <sipa> the last number is the estimated ratio of lowr-software-produced transactions
192019-03-09T00:54:45 <gmaxwell> sipa: did you not bother with stats for more than 5 signatures?
202019-03-09T00:57:04 <sipa> i have numbers up to 256 sigs
212019-03-09T00:58:03 <sipa> here are the first 50: https://zerobin.net/?26e00991169c6c76#QYnu/CQ+ywAhOUqaLqzx+HbQMGQFxvI8zgMyuBkUcSw=
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232019-03-09T01:10:07 <gmaxwell> so 6.87382% of transactions overall.
242019-03-09T01:10:40 <sipa> is that the weighted average?
252019-03-09T01:12:09 <gmaxwell> I took your counts time percentage and added it up.
262019-03-09T01:13:40 <sipa> yeah
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282019-03-09T01:49:37 <sipa> gmaxwell: https://zerobin.net/?43912925929e086e#2I4qQY2fS6KwIO8OOynLImNi48ZCm3UgluqTeRI3FtA=
292019-03-09T01:49:40 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2 | Long-term, safe, store-of-value · Issue #2 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
302019-03-09T01:49:40 <sipa> last 10000 blocks
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342019-03-09T02:04:28 <sipa> 5.3856%
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662019-03-09T05:45:52 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/efed9809b4fa...12408d33c6ac
672019-03-09T05:45:52 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 32da92b Wladimir J. van der Laan: gitian: Improve error handling
682019-03-09T05:45:53 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 12408d3 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #15549: gitian: Improve error handling
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712019-03-09T05:46:39 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 1 commit to 0.18: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/0fd3632868e2...f810f14cf61d
722019-03-09T05:46:40 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/0.18 f810f14 Wladimir J. van der Laan: gitian: Improve error handling
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752019-03-09T05:46:59 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #15549: gitian: Improve error handling (master...2019_03_gitian_error_handling) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15549
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802019-03-09T06:02:41 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #15562: doc: remove duplicate clone step in build-windows.md (master...improved-15550) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15562
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832019-03-09T06:03:02 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #15550: doc: correct path in build-windows.md (master...patch-1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15550
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882019-03-09T06:12:41 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 5 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/12408d33c6ac...ff3814880861
892019-03-09T06:12:42 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 4d83401 Suhas Daftuar: [addrman] Improve tried table collision logging
902019-03-09T06:12:42 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 4991e3c Suhas Daftuar: [net] feeler connections can be made to outbound peers in same netgroup
912019-03-09T06:12:43 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master f71fdda Suhas Daftuar: [addrman] Ensure collisions eventually get resolved
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952019-03-09T06:13:28 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #15486: [addrman, net] Ensure tried collisions resolve, and allow feeler connections to existing outbound netgroups (master...2019-02-addrman-collisions) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15486
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1032019-03-09T07:07:35 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #15563: backport: Ensure tried collisions resolve, and allow feeler connections to existing outbound netgroups (0.18...backport-15486-addrman-collisions) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15563
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1052019-03-09T07:09:15 <fanquake> wumpus 15562 is a trivial doc merge
1062019-03-09T07:10:04 <fanquake> no idea why the bottom "build using" is italicized, but it doesn't appear that way in the doc
1072019-03-09T07:10:11 <wumpus> fanquake: OK
1082019-03-09T07:10:21 <wumpus> looks good to me
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1102019-03-09T07:13:06 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 5 commits to 0.18: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/f810f14cf61d...936ef73fabc9
1112019-03-09T07:13:07 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/0.18 561b00a Suhas Daftuar: [addrman] Improve tried table collision logging
1122019-03-09T07:13:08 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/0.18 487f0c3 Suhas Daftuar: [net] feeler connections can be made to outbound peers in same netgroup
1132019-03-09T07:13:09 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/0.18 333be7a Suhas Daftuar: [addrman] Ensure collisions eventually get resolved
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1162019-03-09T07:13:51 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/ff3814880861...6b2ee268be45
1172019-03-09T07:13:51 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 5bd0788 Ferdinando M. Ametrano: doc: correct path in build-windows.md
1182019-03-09T07:13:52 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 6b2ee26 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #15562: doc: remove duplicate clone step in build-windows.md
1192019-03-09T07:13:56 *** bitcoin-git has left #bitcoin-core-dev
1202019-03-09T07:14:35 <fanquake> I shall close my backport of 15486 then heh
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1222019-03-09T07:14:40 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #15562: doc: remove duplicate clone step in build-windows.md (master...improved-15550) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15562
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1252019-03-09T07:15:24 <wumpus> fanquake: oh sorry hadn't seen it
1262019-03-09T07:15:59 <fanquake> np
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1282019-03-09T07:16:11 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #15563: backport: Ensure tried collisions resolve, and allow feeler connections to existing outbound netgroups (0.18...backport-15486-addrman-collisions) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15563
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1302019-03-09T07:17:41 <wumpus> fanquake: it was a clean cherry-pick right?
1312019-03-09T07:17:49 <fanquake> yes
1322019-03-09T07:17:52 <wumpus> phew
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1352019-03-09T07:25:16 <wumpus> I really want to improve -getinfo now that it's no longer server side, e.g. show regtest/testnet/mainnet, make some information per wallet
1362019-03-09T07:25:46 <wumpus> so if anyone has ideas let me know
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1382019-03-09T07:27:52 <gmaxwell> wumpus: pilfer ideas from that ncurses interface someone did a while back?
1392019-03-09T07:30:15 <wumpus> maybe! to be clear I intend to keep it in JSON format, just want to update for changes since 0.10 or so when it last was depreceated and diceded to never change it again
1402019-03-09T07:32:06 <gmaxwell> well one thing in terms of cli usability maybe don't do what many of our other info rpcs have done and put a billion and one vaguely useful things so that when you run them the good stuff scrolls off the top and its hard to sort out anything useful. :P
1412019-03-09T07:32:27 <wumpus> removing stuff is open for suggestion too
1422019-03-09T07:32:58 <wumpus> I mean, 'improve' doesn't always mean 'creep any possible feature into it'
1432019-03-09T07:33:20 <gmaxwell> exactly.
1442019-03-09T07:33:34 <gmaxwell> or alternatively, go fetch some useful fields out of e.g. getblockchaininfo
1452019-03-09T07:34:19 <gmaxwell> I'll comment the next time I get wall of texted when trying to get a frequently used field.
1462019-03-09T07:35:41 <wumpus> I'd say a good requirement for information on it is that it's dynamic, it's meant as a command for checking the status after all
1472019-03-09T07:36:00 <wumpus> things that are only dependent on on-time configuration might be better to leave off
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1492019-03-09T07:37:13 <wumpus> (I mean, how useful is 'protocolversion' on there for example?) or 'keypoololdest', or settings like 'paytxfee'
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1512019-03-09T07:39:02 <wumpus> but, say, the hash of the most recent block would be useful to have
1522019-03-09T07:39:45 <fanquake> could change testnet: to something like network, then specify main/test/reg ?
1532019-03-09T07:39:55 <wumpus> fanquake: yes exactly
1542019-03-09T07:40:57 <wumpus> that would be a simple and non-controversial improvement
1552019-03-09T07:41:32 <wumpus> just grab getblockchaininfo.main directly
1562019-03-09T07:41:36 <wumpus> eh, .chain
1572019-03-09T07:42:29 <wumpus> "verificationprogress" is also more or less useful, though only during initial sync
1582019-03-09T07:44:02 <gmaxwell> yea, I think what I mostly use getblockchaininfo is the hash of the most recent block, and its scrolled off...
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1602019-03-09T07:45:21 <gmaxwell> do we have anything that returns the time of the last updatetip?
1612019-03-09T07:45:27 <fanquake> Maybe we could do something better for multiwallet use? i.e at the moment walletversion and balance are both just "null" if >1 wallet loaded
1622019-03-09T07:45:39 <fanquake> * same for keypool*
1632019-03-09T07:45:48 <wumpus> fanquake: walletversion doesn't need to be in there at all, but yeah, it should *list* wallets
1642019-03-09T07:45:52 <gmaxwell> keypool shoudl probably be dropped.
1652019-03-09T07:45:54 <wumpus> gmaxwell: I don't think so
1662019-03-09T07:46:50 <wumpus> fanquake: the only interesting thing about the wallet in getinfo is the balance, so it could be a object {'walletname': balance} or such then it doesn't really become longer as well
1672019-03-09T07:47:49 <wumpus> gmaxwell: do we even keep track of the time of an updatetip?
1682019-03-09T07:48:02 <sipa> wumpus: IsInitialBlockDownload does iirc
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1712019-03-09T07:49:03 <wumpus> sipa: ok-in that case it'd make sense to report that on getblockchaininfo, I guess!
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1732019-03-09T07:57:55 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #15564: cli: remove duplicate wallet fields from -getinfo (master...cli-remove-duplicate-entries) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15564
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1802019-03-09T08:21:25 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #15565: doc: remove release note fragments (master...remove-pre-18-release-notes) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15565
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1852019-03-09T08:39:38 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #15566: cli: replace testnet with chain and return network name as per BIP70. (master...cli-testnet-to-network) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15566
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1892019-03-09T08:57:47 <wumpus> btw is "analyzepsbt" really returning a formatted string for the feerate? that's awful
1902019-03-09T08:58:30 <wumpus> ah i see: result.pushKV("estimated_feerate", feerate.ToString());
1912019-03-09T09:00:18 <gwillen> wumpus: the new AnalyzePSBT after my refactor in #15508 will return it as a CFeeRate, although it will still be flattened to a string in the same way before being returned from the RPC
1922019-03-09T09:00:20 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15508 | Refactor analyzepsbt for use outside RPC code by gwillen · Pull Request #15508 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
1932019-03-09T09:00:35 <gwillen> if the RPC behavior should change I can probably sneak that in
1942019-03-09T09:01:12 <wumpus> gwillen: IMO it should simply be a value, the unit should be in the documentation not part of the value
1952019-03-09T09:01:14 <gmaxwell> elsewhere we return amounts as json numbers for maximal json library torture potential. :)
1962019-03-09T09:01:51 <wumpus> gmaxwell: this actually originates from a float though, so there's no decimal encoding issue
1972019-03-09T09:01:52 <gmaxwell> oh, though an interesting point about feerates, is that sensible feerates have more precision than bitcoin.
1982019-03-09T09:01:55 <fanquake> wumpus, yea currently "0.00021598 BTC/kB"
1992019-03-09T09:02:10 <fanquake> I agree a number makes much more sense
2002019-03-09T09:02:18 <wumpus> there's 0 reason to not simply return this as floating point value
2012019-03-09T09:02:28 <gmaxwell> PSBT serializes a float? how does it handle endianness?
2022019-03-09T09:02:46 <wumpus> huh, no, I don't know if PSBT doesthat
2032019-03-09T09:02:51 <wumpus> CFeeRate has a double IIRC
2042019-03-09T09:03:08 <gmaxwell> feerate should be a rational number inside PSBT itself, I hope I hope.
2052019-03-09T09:03:31 <wumpus> oh I'm wrong apparently?
2062019-03-09T09:03:33 <wumpus> return strprintf("%d.%08d %s/kB", nSatoshisPerK / COIN, nSatoshisPerK % COIN, CURRENCY_UNIT);
2072019-03-09T09:03:49 <sipa> PSBT doesn't store any feerate
2082019-03-09T09:03:55 <gmaxwell> I think estimated_feerate sounds like it's a cosmetic field, like difficulty.
2092019-03-09T09:04:06 <sipa> the feerate is computed as fee divided by expected serialized vsize
2102019-03-09T09:04:16 <gwillen> this is in analyzepsbt, which returns information for examining the status of a PSBT
2112019-03-09T09:04:25 <wumpus> in any case the current representation on RPC is useless, you don't want clients to be parsing units from strings
2122019-03-09T09:04:37 <gmaxwell> for human inspection not programmatic manipulation, so it would be okay to print it as unicode domino characters.
2132019-03-09T09:04:58 <wumpus> units and the semantics of values belong in the help, not in the value
2142019-03-09T09:05:01 <gwillen> yeah, although I think it would be reasonable to return it in satoshis per K or something, and let the RPC client decide how to fancy display it
2152019-03-09T09:05:23 <sipa> yeah
2162019-03-09T09:05:27 <wumpus> right
2172019-03-09T09:05:37 <sipa> how are feerates put in JSON elsewhere?
2182019-03-09T09:05:47 <gmaxwell> are they, anywhere else?
2192019-03-09T09:05:53 <fanquake> In mining I think
2202019-03-09T09:05:58 <gwillen> I hate and fear floating point numbers and JSON decimals
2212019-03-09T09:06:00 <sipa> at least in estimatefeerate i gope!
2222019-03-09T09:06:03 <sipa> *hope
2232019-03-09T09:06:03 <luke-jr> ^
2242019-03-09T09:06:08 <gmaxwell> hah
2252019-03-09T09:06:23 <fanquake> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/6b2ee268be459fbc104c054204e2992d4e241915/src/rpc/mining.cpp#L829
2262019-03-09T09:06:48 <wumpus> heck, even *if* you'd want to return it as a string, because you hate JSON decimals or whatever reason, don't add the unit to it
2272019-03-09T09:06:48 <gmaxwell> gwillen: fortunately the purpose of this value is display purposes, woe be it to anyone trying to do anything programatic with it. (because exactly rounding matters, and...)
2282019-03-09T09:07:00 * luke-jr wonders why estimatesmartfee is in mining
2292019-03-09T09:07:13 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: because chaos
2302019-03-09T09:07:17 <wumpus> but it makes sense to be consistent with other JSON/RPC calls
2312019-03-09T09:07:19 <gmaxwell> all hail chaos
2322019-03-09T09:07:20 <wumpus> that's a good point
2332019-03-09T09:08:10 <gwillen> gmaxwell: well the nice thing about giving it in integer sat/k is that that's the internal representation so there's no rounding question at all
2342019-03-09T09:08:21 <gmaxwell> also what is "nSatoshisPerK"? hopefully K is in units of thousands of vsize or something?
2352019-03-09T09:08:34 <gwillen> heh, yeah that's presumably the case, I didn't think about that
2362019-03-09T09:08:39 <gmaxwell> gwillen: the internal representation is a double, I believe.
2372019-03-09T09:09:16 <gmaxwell> (feerates and guistuff and time are the things in bitcoin that use floats)
2382019-03-09T09:09:24 <gwillen> negative, CFeeRate contains CAmount nSatoshisPerK, CAmount is an int64_t
2392019-03-09T09:09:42 <gwillen> I only know this because I just looked
2402019-03-09T09:09:42 <gmaxwell> ah okay, well its float in some places. :P good that it isn't in cfeerate.
2412019-03-09T09:09:51 <gwillen> like I said, I hate and fear floating point
2422019-03-09T09:10:14 <gmaxwell> Integer über alles.
2432019-03-09T09:10:16 <wumpus> floating point for monetary value is always a bad idea
2442019-03-09T09:10:21 <gwillen> yeah
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2462019-03-09T09:11:06 <gmaxwell> so one thing to keep in mind is that unfortuantely a bunch of websites adopted integer satoshi per byte as a fee unit, resulting in a lot of the ecosystem thinking the integer satoshi per byte is the fundimental primitive feerate unit.
2472019-03-09T09:11:08 <gwillen> it's interesting that it's per k not per byte, that gives more resolution than any display of fee rate I've ever seen
2482019-03-09T09:11:13 <gwillen> right
2492019-03-09T09:11:31 <gmaxwell> (and also this results in some dumb behaviors)
2502019-03-09T09:11:35 <luke-jr> gmaxwell: it probably should be?
2512019-03-09T09:11:59 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: not at all... I mean you can have a fee of 1 satoshi for a 1000 vbyte transaction...
2522019-03-09T09:12:42 <gmaxwell> feerate is naturally a rational number, there isn't any inherent obvious denominator but if you have to pick one, one the size of a reasonable transaction (like 1000) isn't so bad.
2532019-03-09T09:12:46 <luke-jr> sure, but you could also have 1 sat for a 10k tx
2542019-03-09T09:12:53 <luke-jr> hypothetically
2552019-03-09T09:12:57 <gmaxwell> luke-jr: indeed.
2562019-03-09T09:13:33 <gmaxwell> but there are no 1 byte transactions, so putting a one in a denominator is inherently losing about a factor of 50 in sensible precision.
2572019-03-09T09:13:35 <gwillen> I guess it ultimately depends on what you're using it for ... for display it doesn't matter too much
2582019-03-09T09:13:47 <gwillen> for other things it could matter quite a bit
2592019-03-09T09:14:16 <luke-jr> for display, /kB is a good size to work with
2602019-03-09T09:14:43 <gmaxwell> yea, I've always found per 1000 to be pretty reasonable, thats always what core's interfaces have had.
2612019-03-09T09:15:44 <gmaxwell> unfortuantely all these fee estimation sites sprung up around a time when the min relay fee happened to be 1s/b, I think, which is what caused it to be treated as fundimental instead of the bitcoin per/1000b the bitcoin software used in it's interfaces
2622019-03-09T09:17:07 <gmaxwell> in any case, I just bring up the common units so people will be mindful of the errors users might make.
2632019-03-09T09:17:46 <gmaxwell> like, don't have interfaces for people to enter fees that take btc/1000 vbytes and fail to guard against users entering values like 10.
2642019-03-09T09:19:00 <gmaxwell> (in spite of my love of integers, I'm also not super fond of satoshi interfaces... values are usually too big, and it's perfectly reasonable for bitcoin software to work in sub-satoshi amounts even though thats the network precision)
2652019-03-09T09:20:30 <wumpus> i mean that's always been the problem with integer representation; it's only obvious if there is a single subdivision that makes sense, otherwise, you could end up reporting (or worse, taking) the same kinds of value in different precisions in different parts of the interface
2662019-03-09T09:20:35 <wumpus> *whoops, overpaid by 1000x*
2672019-03-09T09:21:13 <wumpus> decimal types (that have an explicit precision) exist for a good reason, it's unfortunate that language adoption of them is so bad
2682019-03-09T09:22:29 <gmaxwell> the sad thing here is that json itself-- the spec-- is reasonable.
2692019-03-09T09:22:43 <wumpus> yes
2702019-03-09T09:22:46 <gmaxwell> Just everything that uses it, including javascript itself makes being reasonable with it hard in practice.
2712019-03-09T09:23:19 <gmaxwell> I loved that time when json spirit silently snuck in a conversion to (float) ...
2722019-03-09T09:26:37 <sipa> just work in finite fields
2732019-03-09T09:26:43 <sipa> exactly representable in finite space
2742019-03-09T09:28:31 <wumpus> heh
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2762019-03-09T09:36:40 *** bitcoin-git has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
2772019-03-09T09:36:41 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/6b2ee268be45...257f750cd986
2782019-03-09T09:36:41 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 6e1aaff fanquake: doc: remove release note fragments
2792019-03-09T09:36:42 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 257f750 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #15565: doc: remove release note fragments
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2842019-03-09T09:37:25 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #15565: doc: remove release note fragments (master...remove-pre-18-release-notes) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15565
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2972019-03-09T11:26:17 <teslasystems> Can anyone tell, where is the button for creating new wallets in Bitcoin Core? It has disappeared after 0.16.3 release
2982019-03-09T11:28:02 <luke-jr> teslasystems: that's a question for #bitcoin, not here
2992019-03-09T11:28:46 <wumpus> besides that, I don't think we've ever had a button for creating new wallets
3002019-03-09T11:29:06 <luke-jr> yes, I have that answer typed up waiting for him in #Bitcoin XD
3012019-03-09T11:29:16 <wumpus> ok thanks :D
3022019-03-09T11:29:37 <teslasystems> Sorry, but I thought that the question is related to development, will post to #bitcoin
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3092019-03-09T11:48:01 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Sjors opened pull request #15567: Make OutputType consistent with Descriptor and return it (master...2019/03/descriptor-output-type) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15567
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3632019-03-09T15:42:56 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto closed pull request #15340: gui: Introduce bilingual GUI error messages (master...20190204-bilingual-initerror) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15340
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3982019-03-09T19:07:03 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] cisba closed pull request #15554: docs: binary tar improvement (master...improve-tar) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15554
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4012019-03-09T19:08:05 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] cisba opened pull request #15569: docs: improve linux tar packages (master...improve-tar-rebased) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15569
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4502019-03-09T21:29:53 <gmaxwell> Does anyone feel like getting agressive with anti-virus companies to get them to stop false positiving on bitcoind?
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4522019-03-09T21:30:20 <gmaxwell> the security alias just got yet another report, apparently mac AV software is now also claiming that bitcoin is a virus.
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4622019-03-09T22:12:56 <owowo> AV companies are the snake-oil salesmen of the modern age
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4642019-03-09T22:29:48 <tryphe> gmaxwell, if AV software was any good, it would detect itself as a backdoor and self-delete
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