1 2019-03-21T00:11:06  *** bigcookie101 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
  2 2019-03-21T00:15:04  *** ccdle12 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
  3 2019-03-21T00:18:40  *** pinheadmz has quit IRC
  4 2019-03-21T00:19:45  *** bigcookie101 has quit IRC
  5 2019-03-21T00:33:43  <fanquake> dongcarl thanks, I'll check out the capability tool today
  6 2019-03-21T00:49:22  *** captjakk has quit IRC
  7 2019-03-21T00:49:57  *** captjakk has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
  8 2019-03-21T00:53:00  *** spinza has quit IRC
  9 2019-03-21T00:54:20  *** captjakk has quit IRC
 10 2019-03-21T01:01:32  *** spinza has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 11 2019-03-21T01:06:04  *** fanquake has quit IRC
 12 2019-03-21T01:15:33  *** zhangzf has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 13 2019-03-21T01:17:37  *** captjakk has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 14 2019-03-21T01:20:13  *** pinheadmz has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 15 2019-03-21T01:21:59  *** schmidty has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 16 2019-03-21T01:22:10  *** captjakk has quit IRC
 17 2019-03-21T01:25:31  *** jarthur has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 18 2019-03-21T01:26:43  *** schmidty has quit IRC
 19 2019-03-21T01:40:40  *** schmidty has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 20 2019-03-21T01:42:17  *** pinheadmz has quit IRC
 21 2019-03-21T01:45:33  *** schmidty has quit IRC
 22 2019-03-21T01:52:21  *** randy-waterhouse has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 23 2019-03-21T01:52:47  *** randy-waterhouse has quit IRC
 24 2019-03-21T01:52:47  *** randy-waterhouse has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 25 2019-03-21T01:52:59  *** fanquake has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 26 2019-03-21T01:57:08  *** ccdle12 has quit IRC
 27 2019-03-21T02:01:23  *** schmidty has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 28 2019-03-21T02:01:58  *** Karyon has quit IRC
 29 2019-03-21T02:03:39  *** Karyon has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 30 2019-03-21T02:05:52  *** schmidty has quit IRC
 31 2019-03-21T02:19:22  *** schmidty has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 32 2019-03-21T02:19:37  *** e4xit has quit IRC
 33 2019-03-21T02:19:48  *** AaronvanW has quit IRC
 34 2019-03-21T02:24:10  *** schmidty has quit IRC
 35 2019-03-21T02:25:04  *** schmidty has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 36 2019-03-21T02:29:37  *** schmidty has quit IRC
 37 2019-03-21T02:46:57  *** dviola has quit IRC
 38 2019-03-21T03:04:14  *** captjakk has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 39 2019-03-21T03:09:01  *** captjakk has quit IRC
 40 2019-03-21T03:24:48  *** randy-waterhouse has quit IRC
 41 2019-03-21T03:43:49  *** pinheadmz has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 42 2019-03-21T03:58:46  *** pinheadmz has quit IRC
 43 2019-03-21T04:08:00  <mischa010> so is there any data on the average block verification time? preferably historical too?
 44 2019-03-21T04:10:36  <gmaxwell> mischa010: your question is underspecified. What do you mean exactly?
 45 2019-03-21T04:11:11  <gmaxwell> You were asking about propagation earlier-- so I might guess that your question is related to that? blocks essentially have no validation time in propagation 'on average'.
 46 2019-03-21T04:16:22  <mischa010> well say it's before compact blocks and signature caches, nodes would get a block from another node and then verify it before propagating it, right?
 47 2019-03-21T04:16:44  <gmaxwell> mischa010: signature caches were added in like 2012...
 48 2019-03-21T04:16:56  <mischa010> oh hehe
 49 2019-03-21T04:17:20  <mischa010> but there must be some delay
 50 2019-03-21T04:17:27  <mischa010> before it's sent on to others?
 51 2019-03-21T04:18:03  <mischa010> or was, before compact blocks
 52 2019-03-21T04:18:37  <gmaxwell> Propagation has gotten faster through dozens of different changes in essentially every major version since 2012.
 53 2019-03-21T04:18:50  <gmaxwell> So it's not easy to just give a x/y figure.
 54 2019-03-21T04:19:18  <mischa010> to give some context: i made up a model to predict propagation times and it seems to agree with data quite well, but it contains a term for the 'propagation speed'
 55 2019-03-21T04:19:18  <gmaxwell> Currently?  my logs from a day ago show that of the 143 blocks it got, 6 contained any transactions it didn't know in advance. So in those cases some transactions needed to be validated. Otherwise none did, and the only time taken was the compact block reconstruction and verifying the hash.
 56 2019-03-21T04:19:48  <gmaxwell> mischa010: what data? the bc.i data that I told you was essentially worthless? :P
 57 2019-03-21T04:20:15  <mischa010> so it works if i set that to 4 mbit, but there's zero justification for that
 58 2019-03-21T04:20:42  <mischa010> no the new data you gave me works too
 59 2019-03-21T04:20:52  <mischa010> like 10% max relative error
 60 2019-03-21T04:21:05  <mischa010> but again, only if i assume 4mbit propagation speed
 61 2019-03-21T04:21:28  <gmaxwell> 4mbit is way too fast.
 62 2019-03-21T04:21:44  <gmaxwell> here is actual propagation data from before compact blocks: https://people.xiph.org/~greg/sp2.png
 63 2019-03-21T04:21:58  <gmaxwell> IIRC the slope of the line in that data is about 750kbit/sec.
 64 2019-03-21T04:22:11  <gmaxwell> which is pretty reasonable for worldwide (high RTT) tcp.
 65 2019-03-21T04:23:16  <gmaxwell> anything post compact blocks (or really even post relay network protocol) is mostly measuring the deployment level of compact blocks.
 66 2019-03-21T04:23:39  <gmaxwell> since, as mentioned above, the overwhelming majority of blocks don't need to transfer any transactions at all at block time.
 67 2019-03-21T04:24:33  <mischa010> yes
 68 2019-03-21T04:24:46  <mischa010> well thanks
 69 2019-03-21T04:24:51  <mischa010> back to the drawing board it is
 70 2019-03-21T04:25:59  *** schmidty has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 71 2019-03-21T04:26:38  <gmaxwell> it's also really hard to measure performance in the network because the performance you get in the network is a composite of multiple different techniques.
 72 2019-03-21T04:27:49  <gmaxwell> E.g. normally the vast majority of long haul block propagation is done by FIBRE, since it achieves hundreds of times TCP throughput over high latency links pretty easily...
 73 2019-03-21T04:30:24  *** schmidty has quit IRC
 74 2019-03-21T04:36:18  *** AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 75 2019-03-21T04:46:08  *** randy-waterhouse has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 76 2019-03-21T04:50:21  *** randy-waterhouse has quit IRC
 77 2019-03-21T04:56:45  *** pinheadmz has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 78 2019-03-21T04:58:13  <mischa010> btw gmaxwell, y axis says '50% of pools', do you remember how many pools?
 79 2019-03-21T05:05:27  *** AaronvanW has quit IRC
 80 2019-03-21T05:12:00  *** pinheadmz has quit IRC
 81 2019-03-21T05:12:42  *** nothingmuch has quit IRC
 82 2019-03-21T05:12:56  *** nothingmuch has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 83 2019-03-21T05:13:23  *** echonaut has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 84 2019-03-21T05:14:03  *** echonaut18 has quit IRC
 85 2019-03-21T05:27:58  *** harrymm has quit IRC
 86 2019-03-21T05:28:32  *** harrymm has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 87 2019-03-21T05:31:13  *** pinheadmz has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 88 2019-03-21T05:31:35  *** dviola has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 89 2019-03-21T05:36:40  <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I think we should drop v1 HB mode support. There is no point in sending blocks quickly to v1 peers.
 90 2019-03-21T05:37:59  *** AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 91 2019-03-21T05:43:06  *** AaronvanW has quit IRC
 92 2019-03-21T05:54:09  *** nothingmuch has quit IRC
 93 2019-03-21T05:54:10  *** nothingmuch has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 94 2019-03-21T05:57:02  *** owowo has quit IRC
 95 2019-03-21T06:26:56  *** schmidty has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 96 2019-03-21T06:31:42  *** schmidty has quit IRC
 97 2019-03-21T06:46:19  *** pinheadmz has quit IRC
 98 2019-03-21T06:55:17  *** dviola has quit IRC
 99 2019-03-21T07:21:46  *** jarthur has quit IRC
100 2019-03-21T07:34:50  *** ccdle12 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
101 2019-03-21T07:37:17  <fanquake> sipa / wumpus can you block kevinschoen from GitHub
102 2019-03-21T07:37:31  <fanquake> They are spamming a link to a website that is very likely malware
103 2019-03-21T07:37:48  <fanquake> With an "official" looking URL.
104 2019-03-21T07:40:02  *** AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
105 2019-03-21T07:41:32  <sipa> fanquake: done
106 2019-03-21T07:41:53  <fanquake> sipa thanks.
107 2019-03-21T07:42:05  <fanquake> I have removed all of the comments.
108 2019-03-21T07:43:00  *** ccdle12 has quit IRC
109 2019-03-21T07:45:02  *** rex4539 has quit IRC
110 2019-03-21T07:46:52  *** ccdle12 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
111 2019-03-21T07:47:51  <sipa> fanquake: great
112 2019-03-21T07:48:42  <echeveria> fanquake: I can confirm that this is an attack site (as if it wasn't obvious). depending on the links you follow, you either get the legit binaries, or "bitcoin.exe".
113 2019-03-21T07:52:25  <fanquake> echeveria thanks
114 2019-03-21T07:53:40  <gmaxwell> I wonder if its the same parties that have been attacking electrum users?
115 2019-03-21T07:57:32  *** andytoshi has quit IRC
116 2019-03-21T07:59:31  *** bitcoin-git has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
117 2019-03-21T07:59:33  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MeshCollider pushed 5 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/b3f82284ba90...2607d960a02e
118 2019-03-21T07:59:34  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 91868e6 Russell Yanofsky: Remove use CValidationInterface in wallet code
119 2019-03-21T07:59:34  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 4e4d9e9 Russell Yanofsky: Remove use of CRPCTable::appendCommand in wallet code
120 2019-03-21T07:59:35  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master b1b2b23 Russell Yanofsky: Remove use of CCoinsViewMemPool::GetCoin in wallet code
121 2019-03-21T07:59:37  *** bitcoin-git has left #bitcoin-core-dev
122 2019-03-21T07:59:56  *** bitcoin-git has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
123 2019-03-21T07:59:56  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MeshCollider merged pull request #10973: Refactor: separate wallet from node (master...pr/wipc-sep) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10973
124 2019-03-21T07:59:57  *** bitcoin-git has left #bitcoin-core-dev
125 2019-03-21T08:00:56  *** bitcoin-git has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
126 2019-03-21T08:00:56  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MeshCollider pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/2607d960a02e...717fd58c4ba5
127 2019-03-21T08:00:56  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master bb6195e practicalswift: refactor: Remove unused function
128 2019-03-21T08:00:57  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 717fd58 MeshCollider: Merge #15625: refactor: Remove unused function
129 2019-03-21T08:00:58  *** bitcoin-git has left #bitcoin-core-dev
130 2019-03-21T08:01:37  *** bitcoin-git has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
131 2019-03-21T08:01:38  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MeshCollider merged pull request #15625: refactor: Remove unused function (master...remove-unused-function) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15625
132 2019-03-21T08:01:39  *** bitcoin-git has left #bitcoin-core-dev
133 2019-03-21T08:01:39  <echeveria> gmaxwell: using NameCheap is within the Electrum malware's style.
134 2019-03-21T08:02:01  <gmaxwell> Fun fact, 82% of my banlist IPs are from 10 ASNs.
135 2019-03-21T08:04:33  *** andytoshi has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
136 2019-03-21T08:06:43  *** fanquake has quit IRC
137 2019-03-21T08:12:32  *** AaronvanW has quit IRC
138 2019-03-21T08:16:09  *** harrymm has quit IRC
139 2019-03-21T08:16:53  *** harrymm has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
140 2019-03-21T08:24:55  *** harrymm has quit IRC
141 2019-03-21T08:27:52  *** schmidty has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
142 2019-03-21T08:28:40  *** mn949588 has quit IRC
143 2019-03-21T08:28:41  *** mn94958821 has quit IRC
144 2019-03-21T08:28:56  *** mn949588 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
145 2019-03-21T08:28:57  *** mn94958822 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
146 2019-03-21T08:32:50  *** schmidty has quit IRC
147 2019-03-21T08:33:39  *** mn94958822 has quit IRC
148 2019-03-21T08:33:39  *** mn949588 has quit IRC
149 2019-03-21T08:34:26  *** promag has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
150 2019-03-21T08:35:49  *** fanquake has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
151 2019-03-21T08:38:49  *** promag has quit IRC
152 2019-03-21T08:53:39  <wumpus> so apparently there's some funding initiative by Twitter/Square for core devs (I only learn of this through twitter now), https://twitter.com/jimmysong/status/1108500506106843137 - anyhow, if you're actively involved in Bitcoin Core's development and need this funding, and would like me to write a recommendation for you, let me know
153 2019-03-21T08:54:40  *** arubi has quit IRC
154 2019-03-21T08:55:03  *** arubi has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
155 2019-03-21T09:00:35  <fanquake> wumpus yea it looks interesting. Keen to see how the designer works with Qt & the project in general.
156 2019-03-21T09:03:02  <wumpus> yeah
157 2019-03-21T09:12:01  *** mn949588 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
158 2019-03-21T09:12:03  <gmaxwell> mischa010: here is a pretty typical "time to first relay" for a 3k transation block on a not very fast host (2.2GHz, and no SIMD/asm SHA256): https://0bin.net/paste/mfZ2yV+QA6dwUoGl#9cUo-0q9z8QMzujMQb948phZuaW/mPwzPKSBpXwPMQ/  it shows 4.6ms from the time it first got the block until it sent it to another peer.
159 2019-03-21T09:12:07  *** mn94958823 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
160 2019-03-21T09:12:07  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/9 | Fix for GUI on Macs and latest wxWidgets by gavinandresen · Pull Request #9 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
161 2019-03-21T09:12:27  <gmaxwell> gribble why do you traumatize me so?
162 2019-03-21T09:12:54  <gribble> It just seems like what everyone else is doing.
163 2019-03-21T09:16:40  *** mn94958823 has quit IRC
164 2019-03-21T09:16:42  *** mn949588 has quit IRC
165 2019-03-21T09:17:54  *** mn949588 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
166 2019-03-21T09:17:55  *** mn94958824 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
167 2019-03-21T09:22:44  *** mn949588 has quit IRC
168 2019-03-21T09:22:46  *** mn94958824 has quit IRC
169 2019-03-21T09:25:00  <gmaxwell> mischa010: actually here is a more complete log that also shows that it took 72ms to validate (hot cache). https://0bin.net/paste/-tXEltim85EBuCfv#84o+e5Uxv5IYu9LsQ-fLpBtog877N1PI5QsRCFpoRco
170 2019-03-21T09:25:02  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/84 | Transaction-less transfer of value · Issue #84 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
171 2019-03-21T09:27:55  *** mn949588 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
172 2019-03-21T09:27:56  *** mn94958816 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
173 2019-03-21T09:31:14  <gmaxwell> thank you gribble, https://media1.tenor.com/images/2843fd374596fd548e8643a2eea4edf2/tenor.gif
174 2019-03-21T09:32:48  *** mn94958816 has quit IRC
175 2019-03-21T09:32:48  *** mn949588 has quit IRC
176 2019-03-21T09:42:10  *** mmgen has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
177 2019-03-21T09:45:25  *** setpill has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
178 2019-03-21T09:54:45  *** mn949588 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
179 2019-03-21T09:54:48  *** mn94958817 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
180 2019-03-21T09:55:38  *** bitcoin-git has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
181 2019-03-21T09:55:38  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] gmaxwell opened pull request #15633: Ignore BIP-152 HB requests from non-witness peers. (master...201803-nohbcbfornonwit) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15633
182 2019-03-21T09:55:50  *** bitcoin-git has left #bitcoin-core-dev
183 2019-03-21T09:57:13  *** mn94958817 has quit IRC
184 2019-03-21T09:57:28  *** mn94958818 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
185 2019-03-21T10:02:19  *** mn949588 has quit IRC
186 2019-03-21T10:02:31  *** mn94958818 has quit IRC
187 2019-03-21T10:09:26  *** schmidty has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
188 2019-03-21T10:09:49  *** AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
189 2019-03-21T10:16:35  *** ccdle12 has quit IRC
190 2019-03-21T10:21:12  *** harrymm has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
191 2019-03-21T10:29:26  *** schmidty has quit IRC
192 2019-03-21T10:30:02  *** jonatack has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
193 2019-03-21T10:30:15  *** schmidty has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
194 2019-03-21T10:30:15  *** schmidty has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
195 2019-03-21T10:31:22  <jonasschnelli> Is or should it be possible to reduce the dbcache size once the node has completed IBD,... without a restart?
196 2019-03-21T10:32:55  <jonasschnelli> I guess if I run with a large DB cache and the node has done IBD a couple of hours ago, it will not write the state to the database expect hitting the cache (or a shutdown)?
197 2019-03-21T10:33:16  <jonasschnelli> There is AFAIK no time constraint that makes the cache write to disk... (hopefully I'm wrong)
198 2019-03-21T10:35:07  <jonasschnelli> *expect hitting the cache limit (or a shutdown)
199 2019-03-21T10:37:53  <wumpus> jonasschnelli: I remember there was some PR recently that added a flush of the dbcache immediately after IBD
200 2019-03-21T10:38:34  <jonasschnelli> wumpus: but that would still lead to consuming a lot of RAM over time (without significant performance benefits in most cases)?
201 2019-03-21T10:39:29  <wumpus> well yes the dbcache would fill again after that, it's mostly to prevent loss of data
202 2019-03-21T10:40:18  <wumpus> but don't underestimate, the cache still has 'significant performance benefits' for verifying incoming blocks/transactions
203 2019-03-21T10:40:31  <wumpus> even after IBD
204 2019-03-21T10:41:07  <wumpus> especially for miners (desire for as-fast-as-possible verification), or low-end hardware (slow i/o), this can be important
205 2019-03-21T10:41:57  <jonasschnelli> I'm currently targeting low-end hardware (aarch64) where RAM is crucial and find a good balance between fast sync (where other stuff may be disabled due to RAM constraints).
206 2019-03-21T10:42:18  <jonasschnelli> And once IBD has been done, switch to a lower dbcache to allow other processes to run seems desirable
207 2019-03-21T10:42:27  <jonasschnelli> And since its using SSD, i/o is non-crucial IMO
208 2019-03-21T10:42:41  *** AaronvanW has quit IRC
209 2019-03-21T10:43:18  *** mn949588 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
210 2019-03-21T10:43:23  *** mn94958819 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
211 2019-03-21T10:48:03  *** mn94958819 has quit IRC
212 2019-03-21T10:48:06  *** mn949588 has quit IRC
213 2019-03-21T10:51:31  *** spinza has quit IRC
214 2019-03-21T10:55:19  *** zhangzf has quit IRC
215 2019-03-21T11:01:40  <wumpus> if you have the database on a (real) SSD it is, but lots of ARM devices use either slow external HDD or some SD card
216 2019-03-21T11:01:48  <wumpus> anyhow, could be a configuration option I guess
217 2019-03-21T11:04:18  <jonasschnelli> wumpus: the Rock64pro has a PCI-e (m.2 NVME SSD) (for ~60USD)
218 2019-03-21T11:05:05  *** spinza has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
219 2019-03-21T11:05:30  <wumpus> :o
220 2019-03-21T11:05:43  <emilr> not that much of an inconvenience restarting bitcoind after IBD, all this features create a lot of complexity and maintenance down the road
221 2019-03-21T11:06:03  *** schmidty has quit IRC
222 2019-03-21T11:06:38  <emilr> I'm building bitcoin on a rpi, biggest hurdle thus far is the dependency tree, I had to give up on building boost-libs and use binaries
223 2019-03-21T11:06:44  <wumpus> emilr: generally agree that trying to regulate things like this automatically results in an unpredictable mess
224 2019-03-21T11:07:04  <wumpus> but, like, an RPC that allows changing settings such as dbcache at runtime wouldn't be that bad
225 2019-03-21T11:07:35  <wumpus> (I think that'd be just a matter of flushing the current cache if it's > newsize and setting the new bound)
226 2019-03-21T11:07:44  *** schmidty has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
227 2019-03-21T11:08:16  <wumpus> the depends build should work on rpi
228 2019-03-21T11:08:46  *** rex4539 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
229 2019-03-21T11:08:49  <wumpus> (which will build boost, and optionally berkeleydb/qt/etc for you)
230 2019-03-21T11:09:41  <wumpus> I think it's one of the most popular devices to run a bitcoin node on
231 2019-03-21T11:09:56  *** AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
232 2019-03-21T11:11:11  *** mn949588 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
233 2019-03-21T11:11:15  *** mn94958820 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
234 2019-03-21T11:11:30  <emilr> not sure it will work without a restart given linux's memory management, I'm building it on freebsd from ports atm
235 2019-03-21T11:12:46  *** schmidty has quit IRC
236 2019-03-21T11:13:14  *** schmidty has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
237 2019-03-21T11:13:15  <wumpus> linux's memory management is *definitely* able to give back freed memory to the OS, though things such as memory fragmentation can get in the way of course
238 2019-03-21T11:16:12  *** bitcoin-git has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
239 2019-03-21T11:16:12  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] gmaxwell closed pull request #15633: Ignore BIP-152 HB requests from non-witness peers. (master...201803-nohbcbfornonwit) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15633
240 2019-03-21T11:16:13  *** bitcoin-git has left #bitcoin-core-dev
241 2019-03-21T11:16:16  *** mn94958820 has quit IRC
242 2019-03-21T11:16:53  *** mn949588 has quit IRC
243 2019-03-21T11:22:01  *** Dean_Guss has quit IRC
244 2019-03-21T11:25:27  *** schmidty has quit IRC
245 2019-03-21T11:31:21  *** schmidty has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
246 2019-03-21T11:48:21  *** schmidty has quit IRC
247 2019-03-21T11:49:32  *** hsmiths has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
248 2019-03-21T11:49:39  *** mn949588 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
249 2019-03-21T11:49:40  *** mn94958821 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
250 2019-03-21T11:51:25  *** schmidty has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
251 2019-03-21T11:51:26  *** schmidty has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
252 2019-03-21T11:54:38  *** mn949588 has quit IRC
253 2019-03-21T11:54:50  *** mn94958821 has quit IRC
254 2019-03-21T11:56:03  *** rex4539 has quit IRC
255 2019-03-21T12:01:55  *** schmidty has quit IRC
256 2019-03-21T12:08:00  *** schmidty has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
257 2019-03-21T12:08:00  *** schmidty has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
258 2019-03-21T12:09:03  *** zhangzf has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
259 2019-03-21T12:12:24  *** schmidty has quit IRC
260 2019-03-21T12:14:23  *** AaronvanW has quit IRC
261 2019-03-21T12:22:07  *** zhangzf_ has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
262 2019-03-21T12:22:32  *** zhangzf has quit IRC
263 2019-03-21T12:29:32  *** e4xit has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
264 2019-03-21T12:42:22  *** mn949588 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
265 2019-03-21T12:42:24  *** mn94958822 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
266 2019-03-21T12:47:07  *** mn94958822 has quit IRC
267 2019-03-21T12:47:52  *** mn949588 has quit IRC
268 2019-03-21T12:50:29  *** jonatack has quit IRC
269 2019-03-21T13:01:47  *** schmidty has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
270 2019-03-21T13:06:34  *** schmidty has quit IRC
271 2019-03-21T13:29:58  *** mn949588 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
272 2019-03-21T13:29:59  *** mn94958823 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
273 2019-03-21T13:30:07  *** schmidty has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
274 2019-03-21T13:34:57  *** mn94958823 has quit IRC
275 2019-03-21T13:35:22  *** mn949588 has quit IRC
276 2019-03-21T13:40:01  *** _Sam-- has quit IRC
277 2019-03-21T13:41:39  *** mn94958825 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
278 2019-03-21T13:41:39  *** mn949588 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
279 2019-03-21T13:44:11  *** _Sam-- has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
280 2019-03-21T13:46:42  *** mn949588 has quit IRC
281 2019-03-21T13:46:58  *** mn94958825 has quit IRC
282 2019-03-21T13:51:35  *** rex4539 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
283 2019-03-21T13:58:58  *** Tralfaz has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
284 2019-03-21T14:01:27  *** promag has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
285 2019-03-21T14:05:02  *** michaelfolkson has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
286 2019-03-21T14:10:17  *** michaelfolkson has quit IRC
287 2019-03-21T14:10:35  *** michaelfolkson has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
288 2019-03-21T14:11:27  *** michaelfolkson has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
289 2019-03-21T14:11:46  *** michaelfolkson has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
290 2019-03-21T14:12:26  *** mn949588 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
291 2019-03-21T14:12:31  *** mn94958826 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
292 2019-03-21T14:12:36  *** michaelfolkson has quit IRC
293 2019-03-21T14:12:54  *** michaelfolkson has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
294 2019-03-21T14:13:42  *** michaelfolkson has quit IRC
295 2019-03-21T14:13:52  *** michaelfolkson has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
296 2019-03-21T14:14:40  *** michaelfolkson has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
297 2019-03-21T14:17:14  *** mn94958826 has quit IRC
298 2019-03-21T14:17:15  *** mn949588 has quit IRC
299 2019-03-21T14:23:00  *** setpill has quit IRC
300 2019-03-21T14:25:24  *** michaelfolkson has quit IRC
301 2019-03-21T14:25:42  *** michaelfolkson has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
302 2019-03-21T14:27:35  *** schmidty has quit IRC
303 2019-03-21T14:30:23  *** schmidty has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
304 2019-03-21T14:30:23  *** schmidty has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
305 2019-03-21T14:30:41  *** AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
306 2019-03-21T14:31:10  *** m8tion has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
307 2019-03-21T14:33:22  *** michaelfolkson has quit IRC
308 2019-03-21T14:34:53  *** setpill has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
309 2019-03-21T14:35:16  *** Victorsueca has quit IRC
310 2019-03-21T14:35:41  *** michaelfolkson has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
311 2019-03-21T14:36:38  *** Victorsueca has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
312 2019-03-21T14:36:53  *** pinheadmz has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
313 2019-03-21T14:38:58  *** mn949588 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
314 2019-03-21T14:39:02  *** mn94958827 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
315 2019-03-21T14:39:15  *** michaelfolkson has quit IRC
316 2019-03-21T14:43:35  *** mn94958827 has quit IRC
317 2019-03-21T14:44:36  *** mn949588 has quit IRC
318 2019-03-21T14:48:19  *** captjakk has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
319 2019-03-21T14:48:20  *** michaelfolkson has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
320 2019-03-21T15:01:40  *** michaelfolkson has quit IRC
321 2019-03-21T15:01:54  *** michaelfolkson has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
322 2019-03-21T15:05:04  *** michaelf_ has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
323 2019-03-21T15:05:28  *** michaelf_ has quit IRC
324 2019-03-21T15:22:05  *** ExtraCrispy has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
325 2019-03-21T15:24:10  *** m8tion has quit IRC
326 2019-03-21T15:24:42  *** m8tion has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
327 2019-03-21T15:33:32  *** mn94958828 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
328 2019-03-21T15:33:33  *** mn949588 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
329 2019-03-21T15:34:12  *** zhangzf_ has quit IRC
330 2019-03-21T15:35:53  *** hebasto has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
331 2019-03-21T15:36:51  <BlueMatt> <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I think we should drop v1 HB mode support. There is no point in sending blocks quickly to v1 peers. <-- ack
332 2019-03-21T15:37:06  <BlueMatt> seems like more than enough time has passed for that
333 2019-03-21T15:38:41  *** mn94958828 has quit IRC
334 2019-03-21T15:38:42  *** mn949588 has quit IRC
335 2019-03-21T15:40:55  *** echonaut has quit IRC
336 2019-03-21T15:56:20  *** michaelfolkson has quit IRC
337 2019-03-21T16:01:57  *** setpill has quit IRC
338 2019-03-21T16:07:47  *** jarthur has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
339 2019-03-21T16:20:07  *** dgenr8 has quit IRC
340 2019-03-21T16:21:10  *** dgenr8 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
341 2019-03-21T16:22:16  *** michaelfolkson has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
342 2019-03-21T16:22:45  *** spinza has quit IRC
343 2019-03-21T16:27:53  *** mn949588 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
344 2019-03-21T16:27:59  *** mn94958824 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
345 2019-03-21T16:33:33  *** mn94958824 has quit IRC
346 2019-03-21T16:33:33  *** mn949588 has quit IRC
347 2019-03-21T16:42:17  *** spinza has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
348 2019-03-21T17:05:47  *** dqx_ has quit IRC
349 2019-03-21T17:08:38  *** michaelfolkson has quit IRC
350 2019-03-21T17:15:07  *** Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
351 2019-03-21T17:16:24  *** promag has quit IRC
352 2019-03-21T17:16:33  *** ccdle12 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
353 2019-03-21T17:18:20  *** promag has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
354 2019-03-21T17:22:27  *** mn949588 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
355 2019-03-21T17:22:32  *** mn94958829 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
356 2019-03-21T17:23:35  *** promag has quit IRC
357 2019-03-21T17:27:16  *** mn94958829 has quit IRC
358 2019-03-21T17:27:33  *** dqx_ has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
359 2019-03-21T17:27:50  *** mn949588 has quit IRC
360 2019-03-21T17:29:32  *** mn949588 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
361 2019-03-21T17:29:33  *** mn94958830 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
362 2019-03-21T17:35:52  *** m8tion_ has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
363 2019-03-21T17:38:13  *** m8tion has quit IRC
364 2019-03-21T17:41:51  *** BlueMatt has quit IRC
365 2019-03-21T17:42:19  *** mischa010 has quit IRC
366 2019-03-21T17:44:52  *** owowo has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
367 2019-03-21T17:46:11  *** BlueMatt has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
368 2019-03-21T17:50:49  <gleb> Is core meeting in 10 minutes?
369 2019-03-21T18:02:55  *** tryphe has quit IRC
370 2019-03-21T18:03:20  *** tryphe has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
371 2019-03-21T18:12:54  *** hebasto has quit IRC
372 2019-03-21T18:15:16  <wumpus> should be in 45 minutes
373 2019-03-21T18:19:47  <gleb> I see, thanks.
374 2019-03-21T18:26:40  *** dqx_ has quit IRC
375 2019-03-21T18:27:01  *** ccdle12 has quit IRC
376 2019-03-21T18:30:13  <wumpus> it's 19:00 Reijkjavik time (UTC)
377 2019-03-21T18:33:17  <phantomcircuit> wumpus, flushing the cache after ibd seems like a bad idea, that would vastly increase the latency of procssing blocks in the future
378 2019-03-21T18:33:21  <phantomcircuit> processing*
379 2019-03-21T18:34:55  <jamesob> I still don't get why we necessarily empty the cache upon flush
380 2019-03-21T18:35:55  *** user__ has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
381 2019-03-21T18:36:27  *** j has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
382 2019-03-21T18:36:50  *** j is now known as Guest40623
383 2019-03-21T18:37:08  *** ccdle12 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
384 2019-03-21T18:38:24  *** m8tion_ has quit IRC
385 2019-03-21T18:44:23  *** m8tion_ has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
386 2019-03-21T18:46:42  *** user__ has quit IRC
387 2019-03-21T18:47:20  *** dqx_ has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
388 2019-03-21T18:51:02  *** dqx_ has quit IRC
389 2019-03-21T18:51:31  *** promag has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
390 2019-03-21T18:58:36  <wumpus> phantomcircuit: it has some drawbacks as well, sure
391 2019-03-21T18:58:55  <wumpus> jamesob: because there's that's the only eviction policy
392 2019-03-21T18:59:21  *** dqx_ has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
393 2019-03-21T18:59:39  <wumpus> cache is full → evict all, I remember some experiments were done with other ideas, but it didn't improve performance while it did make the code much more complex
394 2019-03-21T19:00:15  <wumpus> #startmeeting
395 2019-03-21T19:00:15  <lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Mar 21 19:00:15 2019 UTC.  The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
396 2019-03-21T19:00:15  <lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
397 2019-03-21T19:00:18  <provoostenator> hi
398 2019-03-21T19:00:19  <jonasschnelli> hi
399 2019-03-21T19:00:22  <jnewbery> hi
400 2019-03-21T19:00:47  <MarcoFalke> yo
401 2019-03-21T19:00:48  <kanzure> hi
402 2019-03-21T19:00:59  <achow101> hi
403 2019-03-21T19:01:22  <MarcoFalke> When rc3?
404 2019-03-21T19:01:32  <wumpus> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag provoostenator aj Chris_Stewart_5 dongcarl gwillen jamesob ken281221 ryanofsky gleb
405 2019-03-21T19:01:35  <instagibbs> hi
406 2019-03-21T19:01:41  <sipa> hi
407 2019-03-21T19:01:44  <promag> hi
408 2019-03-21T19:01:45  <luke-jr> hi
409 2019-03-21T19:01:47  <gleb> hi
410 2019-03-21T19:01:49  <meshcollider> hi
411 2019-03-21T19:02:01  <wumpus> MarcoFalke: dunno, rc2 was only very short ago, might want to wait a bit for test results
412 2019-03-21T19:02:23  <MarcoFalke> Early next week?
413 2019-03-21T19:02:26  <jamesob> hi
414 2019-03-21T19:02:34  <moneyball> hi
415 2019-03-21T19:02:41  <wumpus> MarcoFalke: sgtm
416 2019-03-21T19:02:41  <luke-jr> hi
417 2019-03-21T19:02:48  <jonasschnelli> This #15310 needs probably a fix until rc3
418 2019-03-21T19:02:49  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15310 | gui: crash if encrypt / change passphrase window is open and wallet is unloaded · Issue #15310 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
419 2019-03-21T19:03:07  *** dqx_ has quit IRC
420 2019-03-21T19:03:27  <jonasschnelli> Where two proposal to fix it are available: #15313 and #15614 (though not enough review)
421 2019-03-21T19:03:29  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15313 | Qt: avoid AskPassphraseDialog synchronous QDialog.exec() calls by jonasschnelli · Pull Request #15313 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
422 2019-03-21T19:03:30  <promag> jonasschnelli: maybe #15614
423 2019-03-21T19:03:31  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15614 | 0.18: gui: Defer removeAndDeleteWallet when no modal widget is active by promag · Pull Request #15614 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
424 2019-03-21T19:03:33  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15614 | 0.18: gui: Defer removeAndDeleteWallet when no modal widget is active by promag · Pull Request #15614 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
425 2019-03-21T19:04:22  *** dqx_ has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
426 2019-03-21T19:04:42  <provoostenator> I'll take a look at both
427 2019-03-21T19:04:46  <wumpus> what is the different between the approaches?
428 2019-03-21T19:04:47  <jonasschnelli> gmaxwell wanted to revert the PR that causes the issue (GUI load/unload)... though I think #15313 is fine
429 2019-03-21T19:04:48  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15313 | Qt: avoid AskPassphraseDialog synchronous QDialog.exec() calls by jonasschnelli · Pull Request #15313 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
430 2019-03-21T19:05:17  <jonasschnelli> The #15614 fix delays the unload until all modal windows haven been closed
431 2019-03-21T19:05:20  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15614 | 0.18: gui: Defer removeAndDeleteWallet when no modal widget is active by promag · Pull Request #15614 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
432 2019-03-21T19:05:32  <jonasschnelli> where #15313 does close them directly
433 2019-03-21T19:05:33  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15313 | Qt: avoid AskPassphraseDialog synchronous QDialog.exec() calls by jonasschnelli · Pull Request #15313 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
434 2019-03-21T19:05:59  <wumpus> so is any one decidedly simpler for a last minute rc fix?
435 2019-03-21T19:06:03  <jonasschnelli> IMO its an edge case (GUI unload wallet via RPC when -server is active)
436 2019-03-21T19:06:11  <promag> right ^
437 2019-03-21T19:06:24  <jonasschnelli> For a last minut fix, promag's 15313 is probably more sane
438 2019-03-21T19:06:31  <promag> for 0.18 the shorter is 15614
439 2019-03-21T19:06:32  <jonasschnelli> It just can make unloadwallet time out
440 2019-03-21T19:06:32  <luke-jr> does RPC unload actually go through GUI walletmodel code like that?
441 2019-03-21T19:06:35  *** Krellan has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
442 2019-03-21T19:06:35  <wumpus> still, someone apparently stumbled on it in the short testing duration
443 2019-03-21T19:06:59  <wumpus> luke-jr: it should trigger the same notifications
444 2019-03-21T19:07:00  <jonasschnelli> luke-jr: it does unload the wallet and there are synchonous dialog calls (the root cause) which leads to a crash
445 2019-03-21T19:07:21  * jonasschnelli stabs synchronous modal dialog calls
446 2019-03-21T19:07:30  <luke-jr> jonasschnelli: I get that, I just don't understand how #15614 works
447 2019-03-21T19:07:31  <wumpus> ok I'll contingently tag 15313 for 0.18.0 then
448 2019-03-21T19:07:33  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15614 | 0.18: gui: Defer removeAndDeleteWallet when no modal widget is active by promag · Pull Request #15614 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
449 2019-03-21T19:07:46  <promag> luke-jr: the issue comes from QDialog::exec, which spins another event loop
450 2019-03-21T19:08:03  <jonasschnelli> 15313 will just wait until user closes it, which can lead to a timeout in RPC unloadwallet (probably okay)
451 2019-03-21T19:08:11  <wumpus> oh, was already tagged
452 2019-03-21T19:08:24  <jonasschnelli> Sry,... wrong. I meant 15614 is the one that waits
453 2019-03-21T19:08:39  <jonasschnelli> 15313 does close it explicit and then unload the wallet
454 2019-03-21T19:08:47  *** ccdle12 has quit IRC
455 2019-03-21T19:08:51  <jonasschnelli> but not all dialogs can be closed with the current code (needs major refactoring)
456 2019-03-21T19:09:11  <jonasschnelli> lets just go with 15614...
457 2019-03-21T19:09:18  <promag> yap, I've started it but its too much for 0.18
458 2019-03-21T19:09:50  <jonasschnelli> yes
459 2019-03-21T19:09:53  <luke-jr> ok, I think I see how it works basically
460 2019-03-21T19:09:56  *** mischa010 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
461 2019-03-21T19:09:57  *** bitcoin-git has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
462 2019-03-21T19:09:57  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jonasschnelli closed pull request #15313: Qt: avoid AskPassphraseDialog synchronous QDialog.exec() calls (master...2019/01/qt_exec) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15313
463 2019-03-21T19:09:57  <wumpus> that's not really an option for 0.18.0, no, then I'd prefer the revert approach
464 2019-03-21T19:09:59  *** bitcoin-git has left #bitcoin-core-dev
465 2019-03-21T19:10:08  <promag> luke-jr: 15614 delays the wallet model destruction after all dialogs are closed
466 2019-03-21T19:10:10  <luke-jr> but does a focus change necessarily mean the GUI is done with it?
467 2019-03-21T19:10:35  <luke-jr> specifically, isn't coin control non-modal?
468 2019-03-21T19:10:38  <jonasschnelli> 15614 is a good fix for a case where someone unloads a wallet via RPC when using the GUI (probably rar use-cases)
469 2019-03-21T19:11:03  <promag> luke-jr: afaik there is no signal to know the active window changed
470 2019-03-21T19:11:12  <wumpus> jonasschnelli: ok good to know
471 2019-03-21T19:11:13  <jonasschnelli> luke-jr: it just checks again... when the focus changes (since this is what happens if you close a Dialog)
472 2019-03-21T19:11:51  <jonasschnelli> The long term fix is avoiding synchronous calls
473 2019-03-21T19:12:15  <promag> jonasschnelli: luke-jr: actually now I remember there is QWindow::activeChanged since qt5
474 2019-03-21T19:12:29  <promag> I'll recheck
475 2019-03-21T19:12:48  <jonasschnelli> however, please review #15614 to merge it into 0.18 asap
476 2019-03-21T19:12:49  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15614 | 0.18: gui: Defer removeAndDeleteWallet when no modal widget is active by promag · Pull Request #15614 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
477 2019-03-21T19:13:13  <jonasschnelli> we probably won't ship with known and fixable crashes
478 2019-03-21T19:13:27  <MarcoFalke> #action review #15614
479 2019-03-21T19:13:29  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15614 | 0.18: gui: Defer removeAndDeleteWallet when no modal widget is active by promag · Pull Request #15614 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
480 2019-03-21T19:13:38  <MarcoFalke> Should also do a forward-port to master?
481 2019-03-21T19:13:57  <MarcoFalke> Or maybe open the pull against master?
482 2019-03-21T19:14:33  <promag> MarcoFalke: I'll rather not, unless you prefer, cause the right fix is to remove qdialog::exec calls
483 2019-03-21T19:14:57  <jonasschnelli> promag: regardless of the long term solution, we probably want this also in master
484 2019-03-21T19:14:58  <promag> no strong opinion really
485 2019-03-21T19:15:03  <luke-jr> things are supposed to go into master before backports (although I can think of cases where that's not viable, so maybe it should be a hard rule)
486 2019-03-21T19:15:12  <jonasschnelli> what luke-jr says
487 2019-03-21T19:15:13  <promag> MarcoFalke: I'll push it then
488 2019-03-21T19:15:21  <luke-jr> shouldn't*
489 2019-03-21T19:15:34  <wumpus> jonasschnelli: our usual strategy is to have everything in master first, so that no fixes get lost
490 2019-03-21T19:15:45  <MarcoFalke> jup, agree with luke-jr
491 2019-03-21T19:15:48  <promag> ok np
492 2019-03-21T19:15:53  <jonasschnelli> wumpus: yes.
493 2019-03-21T19:15:53  <wumpus> if something *only* applies to a branch there's of course an exception
494 2019-03-21T19:16:05  <wumpus> butthat's not the case here
495 2019-03-21T19:16:12  <promag> just note that it will be reverted
496 2019-03-21T19:16:20  <wumpus> not reverted, replaced
497 2019-03-21T19:16:27  <promag> right :)
498 2019-03-21T19:16:29  <luke-jr> *shrug* reverts are fine when appropriate
499 2019-03-21T19:16:45  <wumpus> reverts are fine if some change turns out to be bad
500 2019-03-21T19:16:50  <wumpus> we could to that too …
501 2019-03-21T19:16:57  <wumpus> that was gmaxwell's proposal right
502 2019-03-21T19:17:19  <wumpus> though if other changes built on top since, it might be non-trivial now
503 2019-03-21T19:17:21  <promag> reverting that brings other issues
504 2019-03-21T19:17:44  <luke-jr> wumpus: we're talking about a revert of the bandaid fix
505 2019-03-21T19:17:49  <luke-jr> eg, as part of a real fix
506 2019-03-21T19:17:51  <wumpus> I think we shouldn't have merged those things so late, in retrspect
507 2019-03-21T19:18:00  <promag> again, this is really very unlikely, you have to run bitcoin-qt -server
508 2019-03-21T19:18:09  <wumpus> anyhow let's do the fix for rc3
509 2019-03-21T19:18:12  <wumpus> any other topics?
510 2019-03-21T19:18:15  <cfields> topic suggestion: win codesigning cert.
511 2019-03-21T19:18:26  <luke-jr> would be nice to get getbalance fixed, but I need to run.. <.<
512 2019-03-21T19:18:42  <wumpus> #topic win codesigning cert (cfields)
513 2019-03-21T19:18:49  <cfields> I'm still trying to understand what's going on, but it seems as though the win cert has expired
514 2019-03-21T19:19:03  <wumpus> oh?!?
515 2019-03-21T19:19:04  <jonasschnelli> oh..
516 2019-03-21T19:19:07  <cfields> But afacs it's not causing any problems.
517 2019-03-21T19:19:17  <cfields> So I'm confused.
518 2019-03-21T19:19:23  <jonasschnelli> cfields: should we register a new one via the Bitcoin Core Code Signing Association?
519 2019-03-21T19:19:36  <cfields> I always do a test-install on Win7, and the cert should've been expired for rc2, but nothing complained.
520 2019-03-21T19:19:47  <jonasschnelli> cfields: tolerance period? :-)
521 2019-03-21T19:19:47  *** DougieBot5000_ has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
522 2019-03-21T19:19:50  <cfields> jonasschnelli: I think yes, asap if possible.
523 2019-03-21T19:20:26  <jonasschnelli> cfields: I have never done this. Glad if someone with Win experience wants to do it. I'm ready to support on the legal/address/payment side.
524 2019-03-21T19:20:32  <cfields> jonasschnelli: If you're up for that, I'm happy to help.
525 2019-03-21T19:20:49  <jonasschnelli> Okay. Lets do that together cfields.
526 2019-03-21T19:20:53  <cfields> I haven't either, but I think I have a few records from the last cert.
527 2019-03-21T19:20:58  <cfields> jonasschnelli: Thanks!
528 2019-03-21T19:21:06  <wumpus> awesome, thanks jonasschnelli and cfields
529 2019-03-21T19:21:16  <cfields> sorry if this causes problems..
530 2019-03-21T19:21:19  <wumpus> without you we'd probably have to drop windows support :)
531 2019-03-21T19:21:32  <jonasschnelli> Would also be good to get a sponsor for the Bitcoin Core Code Signing Association at some point (raise your hand if your willing)
532 2019-03-21T19:21:32  <cfields> wumpus: maybe we should discuss an async win release?
533 2019-03-21T19:21:49  <cfields> wumpus: Hah, in that case I'll leave!
534 2019-03-21T19:21:57  <wumpus> cfields: how do you mean?
535 2019-03-21T19:22:01  <cfields> async win release just in case, that is.
536 2019-03-21T19:22:22  <gwillen> jonasschnelli: sponsor in what sense?
537 2019-03-21T19:22:27  <cfields> If there's a cert problem that would delay the win release, it'd be a shame to hold up everything.
538 2019-03-21T19:22:46  <jonasschnelli> gwillen: There are litte costs (domain, macOS developer programm and now the win code signing cert)
539 2019-03-21T19:22:48  <cfields> heh, I realize this is like the 10th time now that I've suggested that :)
540 2019-03-21T19:23:01  <wumpus> you mean doing a release without windows binaries?
541 2019-03-21T19:23:09  <wumpus> I… don't think I want to do that
542 2019-03-21T19:23:10  *** DougieBot5000 has quit IRC
543 2019-03-21T19:23:17  <wumpus> will get too many complaints
544 2019-03-21T19:23:41  <cfields> wumpus: ok, no worries, just thinking of contingencies.
545 2019-03-21T19:23:41  <luke-jr> jonasschnelli: I would prefer to see someone sponsor a neutral codesigning org
546 2019-03-21T19:23:48  <gwillen> jonasschnelli: I am happy to pay little costs, I would assume there are plenty of people here willing but lmk
547 2019-03-21T19:23:50  <jonasschnelli> Indeed. Also, watch out, this is a discussion rabbit hole (windows yes/no)
548 2019-03-21T19:24:07  <wumpus> cfields: for an RC it's okay, I think
549 2019-03-21T19:24:11  <wumpus> cfields: but not for final
550 2019-03-21T19:24:20  <cfields> I would be curious to know if rc2 is busted on win10, though.
551 2019-03-21T19:24:29  <cfields> If it is and nobody noticed, that'd be noteworthy.
552 2019-03-21T19:24:31  <wumpus> I don't think it is
553 2019-03-21T19:24:40  <wumpus> someone would have told me
554 2019-03-21T19:24:42  <jonasschnelli> I'll do some VM testing asap
555 2019-03-21T19:25:28  <cfields> thanks all. </topic>
556 2019-03-21T19:25:35  <jonasschnelli> gwillen: great to hear.. just need to find a good way how to do this
557 2019-03-21T19:25:55  <wumpus> any other topics ?
558 2019-03-21T19:26:27  <jnewbery> We didn't talk about high priority for review, but I guess high priority isn't high priority when we have an upcoming release
559 2019-03-21T19:26:45  <sipa> yeah
560 2019-03-21T19:27:04  <jnewbery> My only suggestion would be to add #14121 to the list, which has a few ACKs and seems close to being mergeable
561 2019-03-21T19:27:08  <wumpus> oh sorry, yes
562 2019-03-21T19:27:14  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14121 | Index for BIP 157 block filters by jimpo · Pull Request #14121 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
563 2019-03-21T19:27:16  <wumpus> #topic High priority for review
564 2019-03-21T19:27:32  *** ccdle12 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
565 2019-03-21T19:27:35  <luke-jr> jonasschnelli, gwillen: (neutral as opposed to Core-only)
566 2019-03-21T19:27:43  <jonasschnelli> luke-jr: makes little sense IMO
567 2019-03-21T19:28:35  <wumpus> 14121 added to https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8
568 2019-03-21T19:28:43  <MarcoFalke> May I suggest #15596 for high prio?
569 2019-03-21T19:28:45  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15596 | rpc: Ignore sendmany::minconf as dummy value by MarcoFalke · Pull Request #15596 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
570 2019-03-21T19:29:16  <wumpus> MarcoFalke: ok, added
571 2019-03-21T19:30:19  <jnewbery> It was great to see #10973 merged yesterday. Thanks to ryanofsky for putting so much work into it!
572 2019-03-21T19:30:24  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/10973 | Refactor: separate wallet from node by ryanofsky · Pull Request #10973 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
573 2019-03-21T19:30:34  <jonasschnelli> indeed
574 2019-03-21T19:30:41  <wumpus> jnewbery: and right, we skipped high priority review just before the branch / rc1 release, but now that that is done, I suppose enough people are focusing on things to get into 0.19.0 already
575 2019-03-21T19:30:45  <gwillen> luke-jr: I'm happy to pay minor costs either way but who outside core would use it?
576 2019-03-21T19:31:03  <cfields> woohoo!
577 2019-03-21T19:31:22  <promag> MarcoFalke: didn't know you could change base!
578 2019-03-21T19:31:53  <jonasschnelli> me neither
579 2019-03-21T19:32:02  <sipa> change base?
580 2019-03-21T19:32:14  <jonasschnelli> switch a PR from 0.18 to master (as exampe)
581 2019-03-21T19:32:18  *** ccdle12 has quit IRC
582 2019-03-21T19:32:28  <wumpus> and yes, congrats on #10973!
583 2019-03-21T19:32:33  * MarcoFalke all you base belong to me
584 2019-03-21T19:32:33  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/10973 | Refactor: separate wallet from node by ryanofsky · Pull Request #10973 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
585 2019-03-21T19:32:40  <wumpus> sipa: change the target branch for a PR
586 2019-03-21T19:32:46  <sipa> oh!
587 2019-03-21T19:32:47  <ryanofsky> thanks all
588 2019-03-21T19:34:10  <wumpus> any other topics?
589 2019-03-21T19:35:11  <kanzure> mailing list update: migration still pending. linuxfoundation is in charge of this, and i don't get updates from them.
590 2019-03-21T19:35:32  <kanzure> warren might have more info
591 2019-03-21T19:35:49  <jonasschnelli> kanzure: thanks for the update
592 2019-03-21T19:35:59  <kanzure> sorry it's not more helpful :)
593 2019-03-21T19:36:04  <jonasschnelli> Maybe also write back that that email asking why it was so short notice
594 2019-03-21T19:36:05  <wumpus> yes, he mentioned it, it's been delayed a bit
595 2019-03-21T19:36:41  <warren> I'm writing a longer story of what led up to this for the list, and we have another delay due to one guy taking sick leave.
596 2019-03-21T19:36:43  <kanzure> i suppose the reason for short notice is that we didn't inform everyone a year ago when linuxfoundation announced their intentions
597 2019-03-21T19:37:06  <kanzure> although i do vaguely recall talking about it
598 2019-03-21T19:37:11  <jonasschnelli> Yes. But the list doesn't know that
599 2019-03-21T19:37:21  <jonasschnelli> Or I missed it
600 2019-03-21T19:38:14  *** DougieBot5000_ is now known as DougieBot5000
601 2019-03-21T19:38:42  <warren> Late 2017 they notified us that mailman2 was unmaintainable and they had to eventually migrate all their lists onto a new platform. mailman2 had  a dead upstream for years and mailman3 they tried but determined was unusable. <then a long story of evaluating options follows>
602 2019-03-21T19:38:57  <warren> <then how predictably people will try to step up to claim they can self-host it>
603 2019-03-21T19:39:19  <warren> This is a long story and the list deserves to hear everything that happened and was considered.
604 2019-03-21T19:39:22  <wumpus> yes, I remember that
605 2019-03-21T19:40:05  *** Krellan has quit IRC
606 2019-03-21T19:40:19  <wumpus> it's increasingly difficult to do mailing lists, no one really cares anymore
607 2019-03-21T19:41:10  *** aqquadro has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
608 2019-03-21T19:41:19  <jonasschnelli> which is sad
609 2019-03-21T19:41:20  <wumpus> (maybe except for the linux mailing list and freedesktop/mesa, everyone hates using them, let alone maintaining them)
610 2019-03-21T19:41:22  <warren> <I did try to ping many of you over the past year for opinions, got very little, then one of you blamed me for not just forcing a decision, I did one more round of asking many of you for opinions, most of you replied you don't care, we considered self-hosting options evaluated by aj, settled on the least effort solution with self-hosted archives>  will explain all this on list.
611 2019-03-21T19:41:50  <kanzure> alright alright, no need to assign blame
612 2019-03-21T19:42:13  <wumpus> it's no one's responsibility so also no one's blame
613 2019-03-21T19:42:24  <warren> The guy who blamed me was right. It was unrealstic of me to expect "the group" could make a decision when most people don't care, they just want it to work.
614 2019-03-21T19:43:17  <wumpus> in principle it's even off topic in the bitcoin core meeting, the bitcoin-dev mailing list is outside it's scope, not that I mind
615 2019-03-21T19:43:53  <jonasschnelli> Yes. It's not managed by the Core team
616 2019-03-21T19:43:55  <wumpus> anyhow, I think we had this, any other topics?
617 2019-03-21T19:44:01  <wumpus> right
618 2019-03-21T19:44:05  <warren> right
619 2019-03-21T19:44:21  <wumpus> don't ask who it should be managed by, but it's not core's thing
620 2019-03-21T19:45:18  <wumpus> anyone who does care about the list should be happy that warren is doing this work at all, if not, it would just disappear
621 2019-03-21T19:46:15  <jnewbery> ^ agree. Thanks warren!
622 2019-03-21T19:46:17  <warren> It's worth noting despite trying to deprecate the old mailman2 server they've tried to keep it online for us and a few other dev communities who had a hard time moving, and most of their downtime trouble was due to DoS attacks targeting only bitcoin-dev.
623 2019-03-21T19:46:49  <jonasschnelli> *sigh*
624 2019-03-21T19:46:51  <warren> The new infrastructure they recommend they are not concerned about DoS attacks, it's expected and better maintained so it won't fall over so easily.
625 2019-03-21T19:48:40  <wumpus> thanks to the Linux Foundation too, then! it wouldn't be crazy for them to drop bitcoin-dev if it's such a hot potato
626 2019-03-21T19:48:56  <wumpus> going to end this meeting, I don't think there's any more topics
627 2019-03-21T19:48:58  <wumpus> #endmeeting
628 2019-03-21T19:48:58  <lightningbot> Meeting ended Thu Mar 21 19:48:58 2019 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
629 2019-03-21T19:48:58  <lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2019/bitcoin-core-dev.2019-03-21-19.00.html
630 2019-03-21T19:48:58  <lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2019/bitcoin-core-dev.2019-03-21-19.00.txt
631 2019-03-21T19:48:58  <lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2019/bitcoin-core-dev.2019-03-21-19.00.log.html
632 2019-03-21T19:49:43  <cfields> jonasschnelli: Arrgh, I see what happened. I checked a few weeks ago to see when the cert would expire, and it's March 5 2019. But for whatever reason it was displayed in european order as 5/3/2019, so I thought we had time.
633 2019-03-21T19:49:45  <warren> I was afraid they would want to drop us because of these attacks but they see us as potentially important one day. Currently they don't understand us but "they stole some top kernel engineers ... might be important"
634 2019-03-21T19:49:53  <wumpus> surprisingly much of the infrastructure and stuff around bitcoin is hanging together by a few threads, and single individuals that happily still care about it
635 2019-03-21T19:50:07  <cfields> And maybe the signature only worked because we use osslsigncode rather than the official tool.
636 2019-03-21T19:50:15  <cfields> That still doesn't explain why the installer worked, though.
637 2019-03-21T19:50:19  <jonasschnelli> cfields: heh. No worries. Just tell me where to buy a new one (if you know that)
638 2019-03-21T19:50:47  <warren> oh I missed the win signature discussion, will it be something other than Bitcoin Foundation in the future?
639 2019-03-21T19:50:49  <jonasschnelli> gwillen eventually sponsors the cert (well,.. he doesn't know the costs yet)
640 2019-03-21T19:50:57  <jonasschnelli> warren: yes
641 2019-03-21T19:51:05  <cfields> jonasschnelli: I'll look up the old stuff and forward it to you. Gavin forwarded the previous registration stuff to me I think.
642 2019-03-21T19:51:06  <jonasschnelli> Bitcoin Core Code Signing Association (based in Switzerland)
643 2019-03-21T19:51:21  <jonasschnelli> (same as for macOS since a while)
644 2019-03-21T19:52:09  <jnewbery> cfields: 'european order' lol
645 2019-03-21T19:52:13  <gwillen> yes I am happy to formally donate to the Bitcoin Core Code Signing Association, someone should tell me an amount and where to mail a check :-)
646 2019-03-21T19:52:27  <jonasschnelli> a check he said
647 2019-03-21T19:52:47  <gwillen> ;-)
648 2019-03-21T19:52:48  <cfields> jnewbery: Lol, wow. Can't believe it came out that way.
649 2019-03-21T19:53:10  <jonasschnelli> BTW: https://github.com/bitcoincore-codesigning-association
650 2019-03-21T19:53:10  <jonasschnelli> https://bitcoincorecodesigning.org
651 2019-03-21T19:53:18  <warren> gwillen: if only we had some kind of electronic bearer instrument
652 2019-03-21T19:53:24  <jonasschnelli> haha
653 2019-03-21T19:53:27  <wumpus> hehe
654 2019-03-21T19:53:30  <gwillen> here in the united states of the 19th century, we do everything by check
655 2019-03-21T19:57:56  <cfields> jnewbery: in case you're having trouble keeping up, that's 91sth century in european order.
656 2019-03-21T19:58:36  <cfields> jonasschnelli: hmm, all I can tell really is that it came from Comodo.
657 2019-03-21T19:59:03  <jonasschnelli> cfields: I guess using comodo then makes sense
658 2019-03-21T19:59:09  <jonasschnelli> Are there any configuration parameters?
659 2019-03-21T19:59:11  <jnewbery> Thanks cfields! Philippines and Solamalia also use your back-front-to middle-endian date format, so it's not just the US :)
660 2019-03-21T19:59:51  <cfields> jonasschnelli: yea, I was looking for any kind of config/record/params and don't see any record :(
661 2019-03-21T20:00:04  <cfields> jonasschnelli: the old cert is in git though if it helps to take a look at
662 2019-03-21T20:00:06  <cfields> sec for a dump
663 2019-03-21T20:00:12  <sipa> gwillen: i was very surprised when my first paycheck in the US was actually a piece of paper :p
664 2019-03-21T20:00:15  <jonasschnelli> thanks...
665 2019-03-21T20:01:31  <cfields> jonasschnelli: https://pastebin.com/raw/vCCimFVj
666 2019-03-21T20:01:57  <gwillen> sipa: I pay my rent by instructing my bank to print a piece of paper and send it through the US Mail once a month
667 2019-03-21T20:01:59  <cfields> jonasschnelli: sha256 for sure, sha1 caused a headache at one point. Though I assume it's not an option anymore.
668 2019-03-21T20:02:11  <jonasschnelli> hopefully
669 2019-03-21T20:02:38  <cfields> we didn't really discuss who would actually hold the cert...
670 2019-03-21T20:02:51  <cfields> gmaxwell: did that threshold scheme ever get anywhere?
671 2019-03-21T20:03:11  <cfields> s/cert/key/
672 2019-03-21T20:03:44  <jonasschnelli> I think – because we can always re-issue – we should go with cfields holding it for now (to keep status quo)
673 2019-03-21T20:04:37  *** captjakk has quit IRC
674 2019-03-21T20:04:40  <cfields> Fine by me. I'd also be completely fine with you holding both.
675 2019-03-21T20:05:27  <jonasschnelli> cfields: I'd prefer if you hold the windows cert.
676 2019-03-21T20:06:04  <cfields> np
677 2019-03-21T20:06:07  *** captjakk has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
678 2019-03-21T20:06:41  <wumpus> jonasschnelli: https://bitcoincorecodesigning.org <- nice website
679 2019-03-21T20:07:11  <cfields> Whoa, I had no idea. +1 :)
680 2019-03-21T20:07:49  <jonasschnelli> Well... if someone questions the existence of the association... I haven had to get a D.U.N.S. number to walk though the apple process
681 2019-03-21T20:08:08  <cfields> Ah, heh. Makes sense.
682 2019-03-21T20:08:18  <jonasschnelli> cfields: Please provide gwillen your email address,.. so only you can then create / manage the certificate
683 2019-03-21T20:08:31  <jonasschnelli> (he will buy it... if that works)
684 2019-03-21T20:08:32  *** captjakk has quit IRC
685 2019-03-21T20:09:24  <jonasschnelli> I need to cut costs on my side,.. since Bitmain is in troubles
686 2019-03-21T20:24:42  <warren> jonasschnelli: what is the structure of the association? surely we should spread these costs out to many members? how is the association chartered? I had been exploring with the Linux Foundation ways to charter non-profits in ways where funders are unable to interfere with the mission of an org for readingbitcoin.org
687 2019-03-21T20:25:07  *** captjakk has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
688 2019-03-21T20:25:39  <jonasschnelli> warren: there is no real structure. :/ It has just been setup with minimal paperwork to get the certificates
689 2019-03-21T20:26:09  <jonasschnelli> I think its probably not worth to do it...
690 2019-03-21T20:27:00  <jonasschnelli> There is another association I'm currently building up (with a proper structure) called "Bitcoin Developer and Researcher Association" (BitDRA) which should aim to finance real work/projects
691 2019-03-21T20:30:53  <warren> I think people have rightly been fearful of central orgs paying for developers, but we're increasingly seeing multiple orgs both for-profit and non-profit. Some common safety driven peer-review driven process between many contributing orgs seems to be de facto how this can work without creating new risks.
692 2019-03-21T20:32:25  <gmaxwell> please thats unrelated to the signing thing. the signing thing should be single purpose and isolated.
693 2019-03-21T20:32:38  <jonasschnelli> Yes. Indeed
694 2019-03-21T20:32:45  <warren> I didn't suggest they be related.
695 2019-03-21T20:41:49  *** captjakk has quit IRC
696 2019-03-21T20:46:34  <luke-jr> jonasschnelli: what makes little sense is Core-only. what good is it to pay the same costs more than once for no benefit?
697 2019-03-21T20:47:14  <luke-jr> gwillen: Knots at least; I would think HWI stuff also, and probably Lightning wallets
698 2019-03-21T20:47:35  <jonasschnelli> luke-jr: I see that point. Its just about risks, affiliation and key management
699 2019-03-21T20:47:54  <jonasschnelli> Which is not worth for the costs of 200$/year
700 2019-03-21T20:48:05  <jonasschnelli> (not worth to mix IMO)
701 2019-03-21T20:48:05  <cfields> gmaxwell: see above about the threshold stuff. Any reason to hold off a day or two for something better than a single signer?
702 2019-03-21T20:48:34  <gmaxwell> I've got nothing there. Sorry.
703 2019-03-21T20:48:39  <cfields> Ok, np.
704 2019-03-21T20:49:53  *** Guest40623 has quit IRC
705 2019-03-21T20:50:04  <luke-jr> jonasschnelli: what risks/affiliation?
706 2019-03-21T20:51:02  <warren> luke-jr: it's hard enough to be responsible for one publication, if it costs $200/yr you're better off creating another org get to another key.
707 2019-03-21T20:51:08  <jonasschnelli> luke-jr: Assume Core goes rouge, or Knots, ... or the key gets compromised by one of the ends
708 2019-03-21T20:51:57  <luke-jr> jonasschnelli: multiple targets doesn't really change that?
709 2019-03-21T20:52:48  <luke-jr> warren: plus time to research how to set it all up; once set up, signing multiple things doesn't really add difficulty
710 2019-03-21T20:53:00  <jonasschnelli> luke-jr: well,... you could end up with a signing malicious binaries that tears down the other organisation (not technically)
711 2019-03-21T20:53:49  <luke-jr> jonasschnelli: obviously there would have to be some reasonable policy on what gets signed (eg, gitian builds of Bitcoin-compatible software)
712 2019-03-21T20:53:51  <warren> luke-jr: it's problematic that this signature essentially leads to users blindliy trusting it as almost nobody verifies gitian builds actually match up.
713 2019-03-21T20:54:24  <luke-jr> warren: that's a problem regardless :/
714 2019-03-21T20:54:36  <luke-jr> and if anything, signing more things would *reduce* that
715 2019-03-21T20:55:52  *** jb55 has quit IRC
716 2019-03-21T20:56:16  <sipa> what is the signatures provided by this org supposed to assert?
717 2019-03-21T20:56:35  <sipa> "this binary is the gitian build of this git commit"?
718 2019-03-21T20:56:42  <sipa> or "this is bitcoin core"
719 2019-03-21T20:56:55  <luke-jr> "this binary is the gitian build of this git commit" sounds reasonable, if even that
720 2019-03-21T20:57:14  <gwillen> "the bitcoin core code signing association thinks Windows should not yell when running this binary"
721 2019-03-21T20:57:17  <luke-jr> "this is bitcoin core" *should* be meaningless really
722 2019-03-21T20:57:22  <jonasschnelli> sipa: its just hocus pocus
723 2019-03-21T20:57:27  <luke-jr> gwillen: pretty much :P
724 2019-03-21T20:57:38  <gwillen> the problem is that you will get your cert revoked if something goes bad with a binary you sign
725 2019-03-21T20:57:47  <luke-jr> sipa: the problem is certain DRM-laden OSs seem to be moving more and more toward a permissioned model
726 2019-03-21T20:57:49  <warren> although if that signature can't be threshold then it's really "this centralized signing association seems to have verified the gitian reproducibility of this binary and has enabled you to blindly trust this signing key"
727 2019-03-21T20:57:50  <sipa> luke-jr: if it is meaningless, the concept of code signing is meaningless unfortunately
728 2019-03-21T20:57:52  <jonasschnelli> It only tells users it was signed by an organisation called "Bitcoin Core Code Signing Association"
729 2019-03-21T20:58:28  <jonasschnelli> Its only for UX (in macOS you can't start unsigned applications by default)
730 2019-03-21T20:58:29  <luke-jr> sipa: it's to get into walled gardens
731 2019-03-21T20:58:49  <jonasschnelli> IMO it provides near to 0 security
732 2019-03-21T20:59:18  <luke-jr> gwillen: I would expect "goes bad" to have to be malicious?
733 2019-03-21T21:00:05  <jonasschnelli> (An attacker could register "Bitcoin Core Code Shitting Association" and signing the malicious binary with that and nobody would recognise that)
734 2019-03-21T21:00:11  <gwillen> I'm not sure what kind of problem it would take to get a cert revoked
735 2019-03-21T21:00:19  <jonasschnelli> The only security is probably that one needs to pay for the cert... :)
736 2019-03-21T21:02:44  <warren> The best we can do is 1) have orgs like this sign 2) have separate orgs verify the reproducibility of what is claimed to be signed and to sound off alarms if it doesn't match 3) peer-review process hopefully prevents malicious code from getting to publication
737 2019-03-21T21:07:54  <cfields> sipa: I've always assumed your first definition. I've also been careful to never publish a full signed binary, only the detached part of the binary that _I built_. So it's useless unless reproducible.
738 2019-03-21T21:08:15  <cfields> *detached sig for the binary
739 2019-03-21T21:08:39  <gmaxwell> gwillen: they don't even revoke stuff that is signing malware. I think the only way to get a cert revoked is to directly piss off an executive at the related companies.
740 2019-03-21T21:08:53  <luke-jr> lol >_<
741 2019-03-21T21:11:41  <warren> Windows browsers, at least Microsoft Edge and Chrome seem to rely on centralized lookup of binary hashes. Known malicious binaries are flagged. If a binary is too new to be known by those lookup services then the browser warns the user. It seems they use this instead of certificate revocation.
742 2019-03-21T21:12:27  <warren> (also yikes, who has access to the server seeing all the lookups?)
743 2019-03-21T21:16:51  *** captjakk has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
744 2019-03-21T21:16:56  <sipa> cfields: so i think if all the signature itls intendes to convey is a correct build from some source code, it isn't really usable as codesigning thing for win/osx applications
745 2019-03-21T21:17:13  *** captjakk has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
746 2019-03-21T21:19:11  <cfields> sipa: "isn't really usable" meaning it's not working as would be expected to users?
747 2019-03-21T21:19:53  <sipa> cfields: there would at least be some implied understanding that the cert asserts the source code comes from a reliable repository with review practices
748 2019-03-21T21:20:07  <sipa> or even that the source code is what people canonically understand to be bitcoin core
749 2019-03-21T21:20:32  <cfields> sipa: yes, agreed. It doesn't function that way at all.
750 2019-03-21T21:21:03  <cfields> Which will be pretty obvious when ~0 people notice that new releases are coming from a new developer cert :)
751 2019-03-21T21:21:19  <warren> 3rd party verifiers checking and sounding alarms is the best we can do under current limitations
752 2019-03-21T21:21:38  <sipa> i don't know what the solution is... i can see the use of a "this just asserts the build was created correctly!" service, but it isn't what people (and microsoft/apple) would understand a codesigning cert to correspond to
753 2019-03-21T21:21:40  <cfields> We only codesign to make the stupid nag screens go away at install-time.
754 2019-03-21T21:22:39  <gwillen> I don't think microsoft/apple understand the cert to mean anything in particular
755 2019-03-21T21:22:52  <gwillen> it is really just a hoop to jump through so users will be permitted to run the binary
756 2019-03-21T21:22:56  *** randy-waterhouse has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
757 2019-03-21T21:23:05  *** jb55 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
758 2019-03-21T21:23:14  *** randy-waterhouse has quit IRC
759 2019-03-21T21:23:14  *** randy-waterhouse has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
760 2019-03-21T21:23:53  <warren> plenty of windows software isn't signed now, while Apple a few years ago locked down the UX where the user had to jump through hoops to run unsigned binaries
761 2019-03-21T21:24:01  <cfields> sipa: agree that would be a neat service, independent of codesigning.
762 2019-03-21T21:24:19  <cfields> warren: that's the case in Windows too.
763 2019-03-21T21:24:35  <sipa> gwillen: i'm sure there is some sense of verifying that the binary was signed by the known developer of the software it claims
764 2019-03-21T21:24:44  <gwillen> there really isn't
765 2019-03-21T21:24:58  <gwillen> I mean, maybe some manager somewhere in the process has that mental model
766 2019-03-21T21:25:01  <gwillen> but the implementation sure doesn't care
767 2019-03-21T21:25:02  <sipa> haha
768 2019-03-21T21:25:20  <gwillen> you can get EV certs
769 2019-03-21T21:25:24  <warren> I didn't suggest a solution but I did mention above that Windows browsers already use a hash blacklist for known bad downloads. It sucks that we can't have additional checks in front of the signature but maybe we could add safeguards after.
770 2019-03-21T21:25:27  <gwillen> but the regular certs run just fine
771 2019-03-21T21:25:47  <gwillen> sipa: I just bought one of these using my own name and credit card and cfields' email address
772 2019-03-21T21:25:53  <gwillen> they didn't verify anything other than that my money was green
773 2019-03-21T21:26:05  <sipa> gwillen: say you're the developer of GwillenCalc, could I register as Glenn Willen from GwillenSoft and publish a backdoored version of GwillenCalc that way?
774 2019-03-21T21:26:14  <gwillen> yes, 100%
775 2019-03-21T21:26:20  <gwillen> at least as far as I can tell
776 2019-03-21T21:26:21  <sipa> interesting
777 2019-03-21T21:26:44  <gwillen> they are just like SSL certs
778 2019-03-21T21:26:51  <gwillen> except with no domain to bind to
779 2019-03-21T21:27:35  <warren> gwillen: windows cert, apple or both? The latter seems more strict?
780 2019-03-21T21:28:19  <cfields> sipa: To that point, in another life, we had to squat on our app's name months before the android port was complete and actually ready for the App Store.
781 2019-03-21T21:28:37  <cfields> I don't remember the details now, but I believe it was because there was very little in place to prevent what you're describing.
782 2019-03-21T21:28:43  *** promag has quit IRC
783 2019-03-21T21:28:45  <gwillen> I think apple is a little stricter
784 2019-03-21T21:29:19  <gwillen> you can only get an apple code signing cert directly from apple through your apple account, which they will presumably blacklist if you misuse it
785 2019-03-21T21:29:29  <gwillen> the windows one I just bought from Comodo, which should tell you everything you need to know
786 2019-03-21T21:31:23  <luke-jr> at the end of the day, if Jonas doesn't do a general codesigning thing, I'll probably need to eventually, and it would be nice to have the general one (whoever does it) sponsored :/
787 2019-03-21T21:31:24  <cfields> gwillen: Microsoft isn't the gatekeeper, it's decentralized.... to the 3(?) whitelisted CA's :p.
788 2019-03-21T21:33:37  *** promag has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
789 2019-03-21T21:37:55  *** promag has quit IRC
790 2019-03-21T21:47:42  *** trillhc has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
791 2019-03-21T21:53:54  *** ccdle12 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
792 2019-03-21T21:59:06  *** AaronvanW has quit IRC
793 2019-03-21T22:00:38  *** pinheadmz has quit IRC
794 2019-03-21T22:00:52  *** pinheadmz has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
795 2019-03-21T22:03:40  *** e4xit has quit IRC
796 2019-03-21T22:04:01  *** promag has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
797 2019-03-21T22:05:25  *** e4xit has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
798 2019-03-21T22:05:58  *** user__ has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
799 2019-03-21T22:09:02  *** m8tion_ has quit IRC
800 2019-03-21T22:11:55  *** e4xit has quit IRC
801 2019-03-21T22:15:40  *** e4xit has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
802 2019-03-21T22:18:21  *** Guyver2 has quit IRC
803 2019-03-21T22:19:47  *** aqquadro has quit IRC
804 2019-03-21T22:20:04  *** mmgen has quit IRC
805 2019-03-21T22:21:42  *** e4xit has quit IRC
806 2019-03-21T22:22:53  *** e4xit has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
807 2019-03-21T22:30:52  *** user__ has quit IRC
808 2019-03-21T22:31:19  *** AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
809 2019-03-21T22:32:33  *** ccdle12 has quit IRC
810 2019-03-21T22:36:10  *** AaronvanW has quit IRC
811 2019-03-21T22:42:12  *** spinza has quit IRC
812 2019-03-21T22:47:46  *** e4xit has quit IRC
813 2019-03-21T22:47:53  *** TheRec has quit IRC
814 2019-03-21T22:48:58  *** e4xit has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
815 2019-03-21T22:52:53  *** spinza has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
816 2019-03-21T22:59:27  *** e4xit has quit IRC
817 2019-03-21T23:01:38  *** e4xit has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
818 2019-03-21T23:04:11  <echeveria> wumpus: for the record, I reported the malicious versions of the bitcoin core website to the host.
819 2019-03-21T23:04:39  <echeveria> which sadly has a similar domain name.
820 2019-03-21T23:05:03  <echeveria> warren: it's a bloom filter.
821 2019-03-21T23:05:45  <echeveria> for things like google safebrowsing, which catches a lot of things like some of the electrum malware.
822 2019-03-21T23:05:52  *** ghost43 has quit IRC
823 2019-03-21T23:06:15  *** ghost43 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
824 2019-03-21T23:06:16  <warren> echeveria: ahhh
825 2019-03-21T23:06:38  *** ccdle12 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
826 2019-03-21T23:06:46  <warren> echeveria: it sucks when it flags non-malicious things as malicious, which sometimes happens
827 2019-03-21T23:07:11  *** Dean_Guss has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
828 2019-03-21T23:07:26  <echeveria> safebrowsing in particular seems to have crappy review.
829 2019-03-21T23:07:51  <echeveria> it's totally random if a report with a binary analysis of malware ends up in the list or not.
830 2019-03-21T23:08:52  *** booyah_ has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
831 2019-03-21T23:09:41  *** booyah has quit IRC
832 2019-03-21T23:09:55  *** TheRec has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
833 2019-03-21T23:11:57  *** ccdle12 has quit IRC
834 2019-03-21T23:12:30  *** ghost43 has quit IRC
835 2019-03-21T23:12:43  *** ghost43 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
836 2019-03-21T23:12:46  *** tryphe has quit IRC
837 2019-03-21T23:13:14  *** tryphe has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
838 2019-03-21T23:30:16  *** captjakk has quit IRC
839 2019-03-21T23:30:52  *** captjakk has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
840 2019-03-21T23:35:24  *** captjakk has quit IRC
841 2019-03-21T23:36:36  *** Zenton has quit IRC
842 2019-03-21T23:39:26  *** timothy has quit IRC
843 2019-03-21T23:40:05  *** dqx_ has quit IRC
844 2019-03-21T23:42:32  <luke-jr> warren: what sucks most, is that there's literally no way to appeal it
845 2019-03-21T23:43:32  *** promag has quit IRC
846 2019-03-21T23:48:22  *** ccdle12 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
847 2019-03-21T23:54:24  *** AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-core-dev