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 122020-09-03T00:29:51  <achow101> #proposedmeetingtopic conducting a large scale usage survey
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 172020-09-03T01:39:51  <luke-jr> inb4 achow101 proposes telemetry
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 192020-09-03T01:40:27  <luke-jr> (actually, something I've considered for Knots, but only opt-in and strictly over Tor)
 202020-09-03T01:40:49  <achow101> telemetry bad, opt in survey that is not built into the software good
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 312020-09-03T02:41:16  <luke-jr> achow101: not sure what difference it makes if it's builtin or web
 322020-09-03T02:41:26  <luke-jr> people might not know about the latter
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 352020-09-03T03:22:17  <achow101> built in would inherently skew the data towards those who have upgraded
 362020-09-03T03:22:32  <achow101> and the whole privacy phone home thing too
 372020-09-03T03:22:43  <achow101> gets too close to telemetry
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 412020-09-03T03:37:26  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/c157a5069454...2d4574aad84a
 422020-09-03T03:37:26  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 9bdde3c eugene: build: add /usr/local/ to LCOV_FILTER_PATTERN for macOS builds
 432020-09-03T03:37:27  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2d4574a fanquake: Merge #19861: build: add /usr/local/ to LCOV_FILTER_PATTERN for macOS buil...
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 462020-09-03T03:37:46  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #19861: build: add /usr/local/ to LCOV_FILTER_PATTERN for macOS builds (master...macos_lcov_0902) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19861
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 482020-09-03T03:40:11  <luke-jr> achow101: even over Tor?
 492020-09-03T03:41:42  <achow101> doing it over tor would have a number of attached issues, like the fact that we would need to package tor with the binary and then start it up
 502020-09-03T03:41:55  <achow101> but I think just the idea in general would scare away many privacy conscious people
 512020-09-03T03:42:04  <luke-jr> hmm
 522020-09-03T03:42:11  <achow101> sure it isn't telemetry, but it's pretty close
 532020-09-03T03:42:59  <luke-jr> you want close? "you just used a feature we don't think anyone uses. want it to remain usable? please send us an email about what you used it for!" :P
 542020-09-03T03:43:36  <achow101> lol
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 562020-09-03T03:43:45  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/2d4574aad84a...9876ab8c74ef
 572020-09-03T03:43:46  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master c4be50f fanquake: remove usage of boost::bind
 582020-09-03T03:43:46  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master e36f802 fanquake: lint: add C++ code linter
 592020-09-03T03:43:47  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 9876ab8 fanquake: Merge #19844: remove usage of boost::bind
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 622020-09-03T03:44:04  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #19844: remove usage of boost::bind (master...sneak_boost_bind) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19844
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 642020-09-03T03:44:12  <achow101> well one of the things I would want to ask in the survey is how many utxos are in people's wallets
 652020-09-03T03:44:24  <luke-jr> people shouldn't know that O.o
 662020-09-03T03:44:25  <achow101> as that would help us figure out how to target the coin selection algo
 672020-09-03T03:44:32  <luke-jr> not to mention way too invasive
 682020-09-03T03:44:43  <luke-jr> I was thinking just -salvagewallet usage
 692020-09-03T03:44:46  <achow101> but that can be invasive, and if people aren't comfortable with answering, they don't need to
 702020-09-03T03:45:11  <achow101> It wouldn't be looking for an exact number, just within a bucket, and the buckets can be large
 712020-09-03T03:45:34  <luke-jr> still, we'd need to collect that info for them
 722020-09-03T03:45:37  <achow101> i just want order of magnitude. are we dealing with wallets that have 10s of utxos, or 10s of thousands, that kinda thing
 732020-09-03T03:46:06  <luke-jr> we'd be teaching them to run RPC commands they don't understand
 742020-09-03T03:46:18  <achow101> you can actually find out via the gui
 752020-09-03T03:46:31  <achow101> if you enable coin control, there's a dialog that lists all your utxos. selecting them all gives a count
 762020-09-03T03:46:42  <luke-jr> yeah, but that's still something they won't understand
 772020-09-03T03:46:47  <luke-jr> not much better
 782020-09-03T03:47:07  <gwillen> it seems like in general coin selection works pretty well for realistic numbers of UTXOs in personal wallets, yeah?
 792020-09-03T03:47:21  <luke-jr> I wouldn't know, I always hand pick
 802020-09-03T03:47:28  <achow101> gwillen: but what's realistic?
 812020-09-03T03:47:28  <gwillen> it only strains for wallets that have a billion tiny UTXOs, which usually means automated
 822020-09-03T03:47:40  <gwillen> I mean, an amount that a person could generate easily doing transactions by hand
 832020-09-03T03:47:44  <gwillen> rather than like, hosting a donation server
 842020-09-03T03:48:04  <gwillen> (just thinking that the latter are probably best polled by different means because they are probably business)
 852020-09-03T03:48:54  <luke-jr> gotta get up early, ttyl
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 872020-09-03T04:08:18  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 4 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/9876ab8c74ef...136fe4c5e9fb
 882020-09-03T04:08:19  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master facb41b MarcoFalke: test: Remove unused p2p_lock in VersionBitsWarningTest
 892020-09-03T04:08:19  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fad2794 MarcoFalke: test: Rename wait until helper to wait_until_helper
 902020-09-03T04:08:20  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa1cd9e MarcoFalke: test: Remove unused lock arg from BitcoinTestFramework.wait_until
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 932020-09-03T04:08:39  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #19816: test: Rename wait until helper to wait_until_helper (master...2008-testWaithelper) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19816
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1012020-09-03T04:47:52  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/136fe4c5e9fb...68f0ab26bca8
1022020-09-03T04:47:52  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 544e12a Andrew Chow: walletdb: Add KeyFilterFn to ReadKeyValue
1032020-09-03T04:47:53  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 0bbe26a Andrew Chow: wallet: filter for keys only before record deser in salvage
1042020-09-03T04:47:54  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 68f0ab2 fanquake: Merge #19805: wallet: Avoid deserializing unused records when salvaging
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1072020-09-03T04:48:10  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #19805: wallet: Avoid deserializing unused records when salvaging (master...avoid-salvage-deser) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19805
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1672020-09-03T07:59:04  <vasild> sipa: gleb: wrt https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/907#issuecomment-686053435
1682020-09-03T07:59:10  <vasild> why "but relay to some extent to the level (2) ones in addition to that" ?
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1702020-09-03T08:00:02  <vasild> why care to relay to (2)?
1712020-09-03T08:00:48  <vasild> if (2) guys care/want/need addr messages, they can always ask for it themselves via getaddr, no?
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1772020-09-03T08:18:23  <sipa> vasild: well that's the point, i argue we shouldn't have (2)
1782020-09-03T08:18:42  <vasild> I agree
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1802020-09-03T08:19:12  <vasild> I think it should be just two options: "I want" and "I don't want" unasked addr messages
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1822020-09-03T08:20:16  <vasild> because if it is known that implementations prefer to relay to (3) over (2), or relay more to (3), then a (2) relay has incentive to pretend to be (3)
1832020-09-03T08:24:34  <sipa> vasild: my worry is the opposite- an attacker who wants to learn your connectivity could connect many times, as (2)
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1852020-09-03T08:25:21  <sipa> because we'd uniformly relay to all  (3)s, but then in _addition_ still relay to (2) giving them a better than proportional view of our activity
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1872020-09-03T08:26:02  <sipa> (i'm hypothesizing about how (2) would work here, of course, as it doesn't exist and imho shouldn't exist... but i can't imagine any other useful rhing to do with it)
1882020-09-03T08:26:17  <vasild> so, two distinct reasons to have just two options - (1) and (3) ;)
1892020-09-03T08:26:46  <sipa> right
1902020-09-03T08:35:13  <vasild> From Gleb's email: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2019-October/017428.html "I want to suggest making explicit whether a node promises to participate in address relay by a) forwarding unsolicited messages (I work on a somewhat related issue in this PR [2]) , and, b) responding to GETADDR."
1912020-09-03T08:35:43  <vasild> I have been wondering if those two deserve a separate BIP or should be sneaked into BIP155
1922020-09-03T08:36:22  <vasild> that a) should be "I want / I don't want unsolicited addr messages"
1932020-09-03T08:37:37  <vasild> and maybe b) deserves a service bit so that nodes that plan to ask GETADDR from their peers can chose to connect only to such peers (rather than discover that the peer they already connected to cannot reply to GETADDR)
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1962020-09-03T08:40:16  <vasild> it would be undesirable to have some SPV client connect-disconnect in a loop until they find a node that can reply to getaddr
1972020-09-03T08:42:19  <vasild> Maybe a) can be sneaked into BIP155 as a boolean flag to sendaddrv2 and b) done outside of BIP155 via a service bit?
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2032020-09-03T09:03:16  <sipa> vasild: well is there any software right now that one may xonnect to that can't respond to getaddr?
2042020-09-03T09:04:04  <vasild> I am not 100% sure, but I gather that SPV nodes don't keep an addr database, so maybe they are such ones?
2052020-09-03T09:07:17  <sipa> you also can't connect to them
2062020-09-03T09:07:35  <sipa> they only make outbound connections afaik
2072020-09-03T09:14:14  <vasild> hmm, then maybe "b) responding to GETADDR." is not needed? I am not familiar enough to judge, Gleb?
2082020-09-03T09:19:29  <gleb> vasild: I think I wanted to emphasize while b) is always true (I guess?), a) is something that may wary. You are right that my sentence has redundancy. It may be reduced to "whether a node promises to participate in forwarding unsolicited messages".
2092020-09-03T09:21:10  <vasild> I se
2102020-09-03T09:21:11  <vasild> e
2112020-09-03T09:21:30  <sipa> f
2122020-09-03T09:22:25  <fanquake> g
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2232020-09-03T10:35:28  <gleb> Does anyone know why we have "Add small amount of random noise before connection to avoid synchronization" when connecting to feelers? There is already a randomized (poisson) interval between creating feelers, so this seems unnecessary?
2242020-09-03T10:35:57  <gleb> I privately messaged ethan on irc, but he didn't respond
2252020-09-03T10:42:11  <wumpus> #19478 seems close to being mergable
2262020-09-03T10:42:14  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19478 | Remove CTxMempool::mapLinks data structure member by JeremyRubin · Pull Request #19478 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
2272020-09-03T10:42:26  <wumpus> gleb: no, no idea, sorry
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2342020-09-03T11:29:36  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 11 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/68f0ab26bca8...620ac8c47539
2352020-09-03T11:29:38  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 8d6ff46 Amiti Uttarwar: scripted-diff: Rename `OUTBOUND` ConnectionType to `OUTBOUND_FULL_RELAY`
2362020-09-03T11:29:38  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master a6ab1e8 Amiti Uttarwar: [net] Remove unnecessary default args on OpenNetworkConnection
2372020-09-03T11:29:39  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master dff16b1 Amiti Uttarwar: [refactor] Restructure logic to check for addr relay.
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2402020-09-03T11:29:56  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #19724: [net] Cleanup connection types- followups  (master...2020-08-conn-refactor-followups) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19724
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2432020-09-03T11:39:00  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/620ac8c47539...4053de04e239
2442020-09-03T11:39:01  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 6de9429 nthumann: qa: Changes v0.17.1 to v0.17.2
2452020-09-03T11:39:01  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 4053de0 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #19859: qa: Fixes failing functional test by changing version
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2482020-09-03T11:39:20  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #19859: qa: Fixes failing functional test by changing version (master...qa-fix-wrong-version) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19859
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2832020-09-03T14:29:01  <sdaftuar> gleb: i had that same question myself recently!  i agree with you that it seems unnecessary
2842020-09-03T14:30:23  <sdaftuar> wumpus: i think #19670 is close to mergable as well?  i'm not sure if anyone else is planning to review, but it has a few ACKs and user reports it fixes a bug
2852020-09-03T14:30:27  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19670 | Protect localhost and block-relay-only peers from eviction by sdaftuar · Pull Request #19670 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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2902020-09-03T15:15:46  <jonatack_> I was planning to review 19670 once it has test coverage.
2912020-09-03T15:16:48  <jonatack_> Or perhaps more data. ATM we only have one user report.
2922020-09-03T15:17:15  <jonatack_> The concept does make sense and is interesting.
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2942020-09-03T15:21:24  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/4053de04e239...69a13eb2467a
2952020-09-03T15:21:24  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 752e6ad Suhas Daftuar: Protect localhost and block-relay-only peers from eviction
2962020-09-03T15:21:25  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 69a13eb Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #19670: Protect localhost and block-relay-only peers from eviction
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2992020-09-03T15:21:43  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #19670: Protect localhost and block-relay-only peers from eviction (master...2020-08-improved-eviction) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19670
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3042020-09-03T15:24:39  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/69a13eb2467a...bd60a9a8edd4
3052020-09-03T15:24:39  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 407175e Jon Atack: p2p: change CInv::type from int to uint32_t
3062020-09-03T15:24:40  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 7984c39 Jon Atack: test framework: serialize/deserialize inv type as unsigned int
3072020-09-03T15:24:41  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master bd60a9a Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #19818: p2p: change `CInv::type` from `int` to `uint32_t`, fix UBSan...
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3102020-09-03T15:24:58  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #19818: p2p: change `CInv::type` from `int` to `uint32_t`, fix UBSan warning (master...CInv-type-refactoring) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19818
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3192020-09-03T16:03:20  <achow101> is #19754 RTM?
3202020-09-03T16:03:22  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19754 | wallet, gui: Reload previously loaded wallets on startup by achow101 · Pull Request #19754 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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3222020-09-03T16:12:44  <jonasschnelli> looks like
3232020-09-03T16:13:35  <jonasschnelli> achow101: why is there no functional RPC test?
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3252020-09-03T16:14:18  <achow101> jonasschnelli: because it's gui?
3262020-09-03T16:14:32  <achow101> there's already tests for the RPC side of things
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3282020-09-03T16:14:52  <jonasschnelli> I see! All clear then.
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3322020-09-03T16:25:22  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jonasschnelli pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/bd60a9a8edd4...a0a422c34cfd
3332020-09-03T16:25:22  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master f1ee373 Andrew Chow: wallet: Reload previously loaded wallets on GUI startup
3342020-09-03T16:25:23  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master a0a422c Jonas Schnelli: Merge #19754: wallet, gui: Reload previously loaded wallets on startup
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3372020-09-03T16:25:41  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jonasschnelli merged pull request #19754: wallet, gui: Reload previously loaded wallets on startup (master...load-on-start-gui) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19754
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3442020-09-03T16:31:33  <sdaftuar> jonatack_: post-merge review would be welcome as well
3452020-09-03T16:31:36  <sdaftuar> thanks!
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3622020-09-03T17:47:11  <moneyball> #proposedmeetingtopic Bitcoin Design Community and efforts around the Bitcoin Core project
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3782020-09-03T19:00:01  <wumpus> #startmeeting
3792020-09-03T19:00:01  <lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Sep  3 19:00:01 2020 UTC.  The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
3802020-09-03T19:00:01  <lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
3812020-09-03T19:00:12  <achow101> hi
3822020-09-03T19:00:19  <hebasto> hi
3832020-09-03T19:00:19  <sipa> hi
3842020-09-03T19:00:30  <jonasschnelli> hi
3852020-09-03T19:00:31  <ariard_> hi
3862020-09-03T19:00:37  <wumpus> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag provoostenator aj Chris_Stewart_5 dongcarl gwillen jamesob ken281221 ryanofsky gleb moneyball kvaciral ariard digi_james
3872020-09-03T19:00:38  <wumpus> amiti fjahr jeremyrubin lightlike emilengler jonatack hebasto jb55 elichai2
3882020-09-03T19:00:45  <gleb> hi
3892020-09-03T19:01:17  <wumpus> two proposed topics for this week: conducting a large scale usage survey (achow101), Bitcoin Design Community and efforts around the Bitcoin Core project (moneyball)
3902020-09-03T19:01:21  <amiti> hi
3912020-09-03T19:01:27  <wumpus> any last minute things anyone wants to discuss?
3922020-09-03T19:01:42  <aj> hi
3932020-09-03T19:01:43  <jonatack> hi
3942020-09-03T19:01:55  <moneyball> hi
3952020-09-03T19:02:11  <jeremyrubin> hi
3962020-09-03T19:02:14  <jb55> hi
3972020-09-03T19:02:28  <lightlike> hi
3982020-09-03T19:02:50  <ajonas> hi
3992020-09-03T19:03:15  <wumpus> #topic High priority for review
4002020-09-03T19:03:25  <wumpus> let's start with the usual then
4012020-09-03T19:03:38  <wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8 10 blockers open, 1 bugfix, 2 chasing concept ACK
4022020-09-03T19:04:02  <hebasto> could I nominate #18710 for high-prio
4032020-09-03T19:04:05  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/18710 | Add local thread pool to CCheckQueue by hebasto · Pull Request #18710 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
4042020-09-03T19:04:14  <wumpus> #19476 seems to be getting close to mergable
4052020-09-03T19:04:16  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19476 | rpc: Add mempoolchanges by promag · Pull Request #19476 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
4062020-09-03T19:04:33  <wumpus> sorry #19478
4072020-09-03T19:04:36  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19478 | Remove CTxMempool::mapLinks data structure member by JeremyRubin · Pull Request #19478 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
4082020-09-03T19:04:59  <jeremyrubin> I pushed the fixes required :)
4092020-09-03T19:05:01  <sipsorcery> hi
4102020-09-03T19:05:13  <gleb> Can we add #19697 for now? It not that difficult, but already has 2 acks. Hopefully it enters & leaves high prio quickly :)
4112020-09-03T19:05:15  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19697 | Improvements on ADDR caching by naumenkogs · Pull Request #19697 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
4122020-09-03T19:05:56  <wumpus> hebasto: added
4132020-09-03T19:06:02  <hebasto> thanks
4142020-09-03T19:06:25  <meshcollider> hi
4152020-09-03T19:07:07  <wumpus> gleb: added
4162020-09-03T19:07:13  <gleb> thank you!
4172020-09-03T19:08:19  <wumpus> #19606 also seems close to be able to be merged, but as it is a pretty big backport it would be nice to get a third ack
4182020-09-03T19:08:22  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19606 | Backport wtxid relay to v0.20 by jnewbery · Pull Request #19606 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
4192020-09-03T19:08:41  <luke-jr> I didn't review the code, but it is in Knots v0.20.1
4202020-09-03T19:08:58  <wumpus> good, at least it already gets some testing then
4212020-09-03T19:09:06  <ajonas> is #14895 actually chasing concept ACK?
4222020-09-03T19:09:08  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14895 | Package relay design questions · Issue #14895 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
4232020-09-03T19:09:14  <luke-jr> (well, obviously I did *look at* the code, but not enough to ACK it)
4242020-09-03T19:09:27  <ajonas> I'm unclear what that means in this case
4252020-09-03T19:09:44  <luke-jr> maybe close enough I should just finish the review tho
4262020-09-03T19:11:03  <wumpus> ajonas: I think it's in there mostly to give the discussion there visibility (which is what that colum is for, even if it's not strictly about a concept ACK)
4272020-09-03T19:11:16  <ariard_> ajonas: actually we could swap it by #19820 first, as any package relay discussions should fall under this one first IMO
4282020-09-03T19:11:17  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19820 | Transactions propagation design goals · Issue #19820 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
4292020-09-03T19:11:49  <aj> wumpus: it's been there a long time now, and don't think there's current progress on it (and maybe better served by the p2p meetings for now anyway?)
4302020-09-03T19:12:34  <wumpus> I don't mind swapping it with #19820
4312020-09-03T19:12:35  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19820 | Transactions propagation design goals · Issue #19820 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
4322020-09-03T19:12:50  <wumpus> if people agree on that
4332020-09-03T19:13:12  <aj> sgtm
4342020-09-03T19:13:50  <wumpus> ok
4352020-09-03T19:14:11  <wumpus> I think we can go on to the other topics
4362020-09-03T19:14:35  <wumpus> #topic conducting a large scale usage survey (achow101)
4372020-09-03T19:14:59  <achow101> I wanted to get some opinions on the feasibility and usefulness of conducting a usage survey
4382020-09-03T19:15:29  <jonasschnelli> smells after a drama maker. :)
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4402020-09-03T19:15:29  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] ariard closed pull request #19147: Document discouragement logic with regards to malicious exploitation (master...2020-06-doc-banman-infra) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19147
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4422020-09-03T19:15:32  <achow101> the idea for the survey is to get data on how people use Core. particularly, for the wallet, we want to know things like if anyone uses things like zapwallettxes
4432020-09-03T19:15:40  <jeremyrubin> I think it's a great idea!
4442020-09-03T19:15:48  <jeremyrubin> I've appreciated your twitter questions
4452020-09-03T19:16:07  <jeremyrubin> and I've done some similarly; would be cool for it to be a bit more buttoned up with ability to follow up with users
4462020-09-03T19:16:15  <moneyball> Square Crypto just announced a user research grant to Jamaal who is an experienced research from OMI and IDEO, to exclusively focus on Bitcoin Core, so it seems like that would be a great person to engage on this
4472020-09-03T19:16:18  <jonasschnelli> I think it's a great idea. Unsure how to execute practically
4482020-09-03T19:16:25  <wumpus> I was okay with remiving zapwallettxes but I dislike how it seems we're removing all recorvery functionality
4492020-09-03T19:16:31  <moneyball> His proposal can be found here https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d8QND6mGHayOAynt1ywZ1mgca1Ghlt1Rkn7l02Jj2IA/edit
4502020-09-03T19:16:45  <moneyball> but he is eager to work with Core developers on improving it and making it as impactful as possible
4512020-09-03T19:16:48  <wumpus> it's clear such things are useful sometimes even if people don't use them a lot day to day
4522020-09-03T19:16:52  <sipa> moneyball: please wait for topic?
4532020-09-03T19:17:15  <moneyball> sipa: I am responding to achow's call for a usage survey
4542020-09-03T19:17:17  <luke-jr> sipa: this is the topic
4552020-09-03T19:17:29  <sipa> oh, oops!
4562020-09-03T19:17:31  <moneyball> We now literally have an expert at this :)
4572020-09-03T19:17:38  <achow101> wumpus: i'm not necessarily trying to remove recovery functionality
4582020-09-03T19:17:54  <ariard_> moneyball: you should ping folks from blockchain commons, IIRC they have thoughts on how to improve core wallet
4592020-09-03T19:17:58  <wumpus> in any case, more generally, I don't think doing a survey can hurt
4602020-09-03T19:18:23  <achow101> but also I think a survey could also get us some useful data for other things
4612020-09-03T19:18:50  <jeremyrubin> I'm not positive that lack of expertise is the issue. E.g., I'm a published HCI author and I know other people have similar expertise. I think the broader issue is coming up with agreement that the results of such a survey would be actionable.
4622020-09-03T19:19:28  <nehan> DCI has also been talking to a user research team. I think it can be tricky to design these surveys well, for example so you don't just hear what you want to hear
4632020-09-03T19:19:34  <moneyball> Ok let me re-state: we have someone who will be dedicated full-time to this for 6 months, so I encourage anyone interested in shaping and influencing his research to connect with him
4642020-09-03T19:20:00  <moneyball> His email is jamaalmonty [at] gmail.com
4652020-09-03T19:20:16  <luke-jr> sounds like lots of different people trying to do a survey
4662020-09-03T19:20:22  <luke-jr> I suggest they all work together :p
4672020-09-03T19:20:38  <jonasschnelli> Just a little warning: some users don't know what they want (especially when it hits the privacy layer).
4682020-09-03T19:20:46  <nehan> we have not started anything yet, just offering up information. will ask them to reach out to jamaal!
4692020-09-03T19:21:03  <jeremyrubin> achow101: I think maybe what might make sense is to come up with some key issues we want to fix but don't know how to fix.
4702020-09-03T19:21:08  <moneyball> nehan: great!!
4712020-09-03T19:21:11  <jonasschnelli> Probably also hard to find samples that are representative for "the usergroupe" of Bitcoin Core
4722020-09-03T19:21:14  <jeremyrubin> it sounds like wallet recovery is a real issue
4732020-09-03T19:21:14  <luke-jr> I don't know we have a reliable way to contact all or even a good sample of users
4742020-09-03T19:21:20  <achow101> jeremyrubin: right
4752020-09-03T19:21:36  <achow101> the kind of data I'm looking for is more of what things are being used
4762020-09-03T19:21:36  <luke-jr> I expect people who read bitcoincore.org, or the announcements list, etc are the same niches
4772020-09-03T19:22:03  <achow101> I spoke with Jamaal and he's doing more on user experience stuff which is more subjective
4782020-09-03T19:22:11  <jeremyrubin> achow101: you know the whole bullet holes on plane wing issue right?
4792020-09-03T19:22:21  <achow101> jeremyrubin: yes
4802020-09-03T19:22:24  <jeremyrubin> :)
4812020-09-03T19:22:29  <jonasschnelli> Yes. UX and feature uses are two different things
4822020-09-03T19:22:46  <luke-jr> a lot of users haven't upgraded since <0.18 still
4832020-09-03T19:22:55  <jeremyrubin> I think what might be nice would be to start with a project-wise survey
4842020-09-03T19:22:56  <luke-jr> (40%)
4852020-09-03T19:22:59  <achow101> But if we're debating whether to remove e.g. zapwallettxes, it would be nice to know whether people use this
4862020-09-03T19:23:11  <jeremyrubin> Rather than talking to end-users, start by talking to mid?-users
4872020-09-03T19:23:20  <jeremyrubin> e.g., LND, BTCPayServer, Coinbase, etc
4882020-09-03T19:23:32  <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: very different kind of users
4892020-09-03T19:23:35  <jonasschnelli> achow101: how would you get representative samples to acctually use this as a decision base (to remove zap)?
4902020-09-03T19:23:36  <achow101> other data I'm looking for though is number of UTXOs (within orders of magnitudes, not actual numbers), and wallet versions
4912020-09-03T19:24:13  <nehan> achow101: is there a list i could share of your questions and thoughts?
4922020-09-03T19:24:17  <achow101> jonasschnelli: I think the best we would be able to do is to promote the survey in as many places as possible. like put it on reddit, bitcointalk, twitter, etc.
4932020-09-03T19:24:28  <jeremyrubin> luke-jr: that cluster of users is probably just more useful in early on work at having users who can clearly express what they want v.s. end users where the question becomes more of a UX endeavor IMO
4942020-09-03T19:24:34  <achow101> nehan: not yet
4952020-09-03T19:24:39  <jonasschnelli> The survey will probably be anonymous. So its super hard to tell wether one person did fill up 10k forms or 10k users filled out one form.
4962020-09-03T19:24:44  <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: but they'd also already be opening PRs for what they want
4972020-09-03T19:24:50  <jeremyrubin> That's not true
4982020-09-03T19:24:53  <sipa> achow101: one issue especially with recovery options is that they're extremely rarely used features to begin with
4992020-09-03T19:25:08  <sipa> achow101: and even if 99.99% of users never touch them, they are worthwhile
5002020-09-03T19:25:10  <jonasschnelli> There will always be large questionmarks wether the gathered data is useful due to the nature that we don't do CRM
5012020-09-03T19:25:11  <achow101> jonasschnelli: yes, that's certainly a problem. I think the best we could do there is to put a captcha and ask people not to be assholes
5022020-09-03T19:25:23  <sipa> which means you need an extremely large and representative sample
5032020-09-03T19:25:40  <luke-jr> back when I did the KYC poll thing, it matched Twitter polls pretty closely
5042020-09-03T19:25:43  <wumpus> sipa: that was also my point, i think a survey is good for some things, but probably not for recovery options
5052020-09-03T19:25:50  <luke-jr> so I don't think there's a whole lot of effort into skewing polls
5062020-09-03T19:26:28  <sipa> wumpus: agree
5072020-09-03T19:26:47  <achow101> wumpus, sipa: I agree that for recovery options, it's not as useful. But asking whether people have heard of the option might be.
5082020-09-03T19:27:11  <sipa> achow101: agree
5092020-09-03T19:27:15  <jeremyrubin> You can also make a survey only show a follow up if they check a box that they used  it or lost a wallet
5102020-09-03T19:27:30  <jeremyrubin> which if you just don't collect enough data on, you ignore it
5112020-09-03T19:27:39  <wumpus> if it is about a single option, it's likely better to ask it separately on twitter than do a survey, will reach more people
5122020-09-03T19:27:43  <sipa> "How many BTC have you lost due to unrecoverable wallet.dat files?"
5132020-09-03T19:27:50  <jeremyrubin> heh
5142020-09-03T19:28:01  <achow101> I think there would end up being a lot of questions like "have you heard of X?" followed by "If yes, have you ever used X?"
5152020-09-03T19:28:20  <jeremyrubin> achow101: I think we can probably between some set of people also pay to promote the tweet?
5162020-09-03T19:28:26  <jeremyrubin> if you want more respondents
5172020-09-03T19:28:26  <luke-jr> inb4 a bunch of lost bitcoins get recovered as a result of said survey
5182020-09-03T19:28:28  <nehan> there is also depth vs. breadth: it might be useful to interview 2-3 people who have lost btc to find out what went wrong
5192020-09-03T19:28:39  <jeremyrubin> but in my experience polls get very high engagement
5202020-09-03T19:28:44  <jeremyrubin> like usually at least 200 ppl
5212020-09-03T19:29:09  <jeremyrubin> hey!
5222020-09-03T19:29:18  <jonasschnelli> If a survey happens,.. i think the form how it's done (google forms, etc.) and what branding, originator/sender is used, privacy in general, etc. is used if very important to prevent people freaking out
5232020-09-03T19:29:19  <jeremyrubin> Lots of people from the MIT Bitcoin Project lost their wallet.dats
5242020-09-03T19:29:30  <jeremyrubin> can shoot the participants an email nehan
5252020-09-03T19:30:07  <achow101> jonasschnelli: that's definitely a concern. I don't think any existing survey sites don't have tracking
5262020-09-03T19:30:17  <achow101> we'd likely have to run something ourselves
5272020-09-03T19:30:35  <jonasschnelli> Those details are the reason why I said at the beginning it is probably a "drama maker"
5282020-09-03T19:30:56  <jeremyrubin> the issue is that then you bias onto people who will visit mysketchypoll.info vs. google forms :)
5292020-09-03T19:31:07  *** AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
5302020-09-03T19:31:09  <achow101> put it on bitcoincore.org
5312020-09-03T19:31:11  <jonasschnelli> And I bet some BCH morons will script 10k survey submissions just to show off
5322020-09-03T19:31:16  <gwillen> achow101: it's hard to guarantee anything doesn't have tracking, I have suggested to people that they just fill out google forms over Tor if they care a lot
5332020-09-03T19:31:18  <achow101> mysketchpoll.bitcoincore.org :)
5342020-09-03T19:31:22  <sipa> jeremyrubin: lol, i could have predicted that :)
5352020-09-03T19:31:43  <gleb> blinded proof of ownership to participate? :)
5362020-09-03T19:31:45  <gwillen> (I guess perhaps some non-google provider might be less likely to give Tor users lots of annoying captchas)
5372020-09-03T19:32:05  <wumpus> agree w/ regard to drama maker, especially if you ask about people losing money you have to do with some care
5382020-09-03T19:32:27  <gleb> poodle-style construction may help?  not sure, should re-read it
5392020-09-03T19:32:35  <jonasschnelli> And maybe you can argue that the most Core powerusers (which we actually want to sample) are generally not filling out surveys.
5402020-09-03T19:32:36  <jeremyrubin> I think I'll re-make my suggestion that rather than doing an initial broad scope survey, we should build some experience on a couple smaller scale ones
5412020-09-03T19:32:38  <ariard_> gleb: it's 2020, just ask them to pay a LN invoice :p
5422020-09-03T19:32:41  <wumpus> at least for a public survery, if you're just going to interview a few people it's less of an issue
5432020-09-03T19:32:48  <jeremyrubin> And then leverage that learning for future work
5442020-09-03T19:32:55  <achow101> gleb: that would severely bias our sample to people willing to jump through the hoops
5452020-09-03T19:33:16  <wumpus> heh, getting reliable statistics in 2020
5462020-09-03T19:33:18  <instagibbs> what's the budget for this? :)
5472020-09-03T19:33:21  <jonasschnelli> maybe it's best done outside of the core "official" channels (bitcoincore.org) and best put under your own umbrella (achow, twitter, your website)?
5482020-09-03T19:33:31  <sipa> put it on the blockchain
5492020-09-03T19:33:33  <jonasschnelli> instagibbs: budget is always 0
5502020-09-03T19:33:43  * jeremyrubin I lost my wallet.dat because the blocks were too small to upload it.
5512020-09-03T19:33:47  <achow101> I could setup a google doc where we discuss what and how to ask questions.
5522020-09-03T19:33:51  <instagibbs> jonasschnelli, I am personal friends with survey researchers/professionals :P
5532020-09-03T19:34:02  <nehan> achow101: +1
5542020-09-03T19:34:35  <achow101> instagibbs: My budget is like $20
5552020-09-03T19:34:48  <jonasschnelli> should be enough for 1m of a VM
5562020-09-03T19:34:49  <instagibbs> s/friends/wife/
5572020-09-03T19:34:53  <instagibbs> I'll sak her
5582020-09-03T19:34:54  <instagibbs> ask
5592020-09-03T19:35:11  <jonasschnelli> don't sak her!
5602020-09-03T19:35:11  <luke-jr> …
5612020-09-03T19:35:22  <luke-jr> instagibbs: you are a survey researcher's wife?
5622020-09-03T19:35:22  <jeremyrubin> Those responsible for the survey have been sacked.
5632020-09-03T19:35:31  <instagibbs> luke-jr, i no english sorry
5642020-09-03T19:35:38  <luke-jr> XD
5652020-09-03T19:35:53  <jeremyrubin> Anyways -- I think there's broad conceptually agreement on a survey achow101?
5662020-09-03T19:35:56  <achow101> jeremyrubin: welp
5672020-09-03T19:36:10  <achow101> yeah, i'll come up with a slightly more concerte proposal
5682020-09-03T19:36:18  <jonatack> data point of one: i don't fill out surveys ever
5692020-09-03T19:36:29  <jonasschnelli> achow101: thanks!
5702020-09-03T19:36:30  <sdaftuar> by induction...
5712020-09-03T19:36:33  <jonatack> due to google forms, tracking, etc.
5722020-09-03T19:36:46  <jeremyrubin> jonatack: you just answered a survey on taking surveys
5732020-09-03T19:36:51  <luke-jr> Sometimes I do if they're quick
5742020-09-03T19:36:51  *** kristapsk has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
5752020-09-03T19:36:56  <jeremyrubin> So I think maybe a good next step would be to make a google doc and just let people add questions they want asked?
5762020-09-03T19:36:56  <luke-jr> if they say 15 minutes, I just close it
5772020-09-03T19:37:04  <jeremyrubin> Then trim it down into something more concrete
5782020-09-03T19:37:14  <achow101> yeah
5792020-09-03T19:37:37  <jeremyrubin> if it helps: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gGP9CmOiM80JmNPiDrTL6dgP6fVVusDuEqYQ9cBJz5E/edit
5802020-09-03T19:37:42  <sipa> "This survey will end when block $(($HEIGHT+1)) is found. Good luck!"
5812020-09-03T19:37:44  <jeremyrubin> anyone can suggest edit dump questions here
5822020-09-03T19:37:48  <instagibbs> luke-jr, 15 minutes is a prety long survey
5832020-09-03T19:37:52  <luke-jr> sipa: lol
5842020-09-03T19:38:01  <instagibbs> in paper terms, roughly 15 pages of checkboxes and stuff
5852020-09-03T19:38:16  <luke-jr> instagibbs: I wouldn't know, since I don't go through them :P
5862020-09-03T19:39:50  <achow101> end of topic I guess
5872020-09-03T19:40:03  <wumpus> #topic Bitcoin Design Community and efforts around the Bitcoin Core project (moneyball)
5882020-09-03T19:40:13  <moneyball> For context, back in June Square Crypto announced the formation of the Bitcoin Design community https://medium.com/@squarecrypto/bringing-together-the-bitcoin-design-community-b89e5fbe080f
5892020-09-03T19:40:21  <moneyball> We had an amazing response with over 500 designers and creatives from around the world joining the community. Some of them have an interest in contributing to the Bitcoin Core project.
5902020-09-03T19:40:38  <moneyball> I already mentioned Jamaal's project above which is one touchpoint with the Core project.
5912020-09-03T19:40:54  <moneyball> There is also a group of people interested in helping with the GUI design. They've formed a Slack channel #bitcoin-core-gui in the Design Community Slack (http://www.bitcoindesigners.org/). They're also holding biweekly video calls to discuss issues (eg https://github.com/BitcoinDesign/Meta/issues/13).
5922020-09-03T19:41:02  <moneyball> An example of improving the GUI is https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gui/issues/81
5932020-09-03T19:41:14  <moneyball> If interested, feel free to join these and engage. Note that there is not an expectation Core contributors must join these discussions, and as I state here (https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gui/pull/79#issuecomment-686613427), any formal proposed changes and discussion should occur on GitHub per the existing process.
5942020-09-03T19:41:33  *** davterra has quit IRC
5952020-09-03T19:41:35  <moneyball> I think this is great news to have designers and researchers interested in helping the Core project! I am sure there will be a few areas to improve as we add new types of contributors, so don't be afraid to provide feedback or offer suggestions.
5962020-09-03T19:41:39  <moneyball> Comments?
5972020-09-03T19:41:52  *** belcher_ has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
5982020-09-03T19:41:54  *** davterra has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
5992020-09-03T19:42:14  <luke-jr> moneyball: why can't they use IRC, or at least the existing Core slack?
6002020-09-03T19:43:39  <wumpus> moneyball: great to hear
6012020-09-03T19:43:46  <jonasschnelli> Yes. Great to hear.
6022020-09-03T19:43:51  <moneyball> They could, but most designers are not on IRC, but we are working to get them more comfortable with GitHub, which I think is going well.
6032020-09-03T19:44:06  <wumpus> getting people to use IRC is kind of out of scope I think
6042020-09-03T19:44:39  <sdaftuar> personally i'm glad we're getting thoughtful newcomers to contribute, sounds great!
6052020-09-03T19:44:46  <wumpus> it's got to be more about what is being discussed than where, anyway
6062020-09-03T19:44:55  *** belcher has quit IRC
6072020-09-03T19:45:06  <jeremyrubin> I think one question I have is the extent to which it makes sense to, assuming we have this massive influx of design talent, to work on the existing GUI or to gut-rennovate it. Not sure what's in scope
6082020-09-03T19:45:09  <instagibbs> provided larger scale coordination is done at github level I don't think it should cause many issues
6092020-09-03T19:45:10  <jonasschnelli> One first think that pops into my head when I hear designers working on Core: how hard will it be to adapt a flexible design with our native platform Qt approach
6102020-09-03T19:45:11  <luke-jr> moneyball: they can join IRC just as easily as joining some new Slack
6112020-09-03T19:45:22  <jeremyrubin> jonasschnelli: +1 similar q
6122020-09-03T19:45:51  <wumpus> that's why QML was brought up, it's much more flexible in that regard
6132020-09-03T19:45:54  <hebasto> jonasschnelli: by moving to QML?
6142020-09-03T19:46:01  <jonasschnelli> So whatever comes out of the design process,... implementing it will be a challenge.
6152020-09-03T19:46:05  <jonasschnelli> I agree with QML.
6162020-09-03T19:46:15  <wumpus> there's only so much you can do with widgets
6172020-09-03T19:46:18  <jonasschnelli> Which _is_ hard to switch towards
6182020-09-03T19:46:42  <jonasschnelli> Also,... should the GUI still respect color patterns of the OS (dark mode, etc.)?
6192020-09-03T19:46:50  <wumpus> someone already did some stuff with QML and bitcoin core in a PR for android
6202020-09-03T19:47:09  <hebasto> is it acceptable to have hybrid (widgets + QML) binaries at somepoint?
6212020-09-03T19:47:11  <wumpus> #16883
6222020-09-03T19:47:14  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16883 | WIP: Qt: add QML based mobile GUI by icota · Pull Request #16883 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
6232020-09-03T19:47:19  <luke-jr> the GUI low-level design (colours, widgets, etc) should be entirely determined by the OS
6242020-09-03T19:47:20  <jonasschnelli> I think QML could be the right direction. Just,... that not an easy step by step transition probably
6252020-09-03T19:47:31  <jeremyrubin> How far along is the splitting of wallet process stuff?
6262020-09-03T19:47:45  <wumpus> I'm not sure they can be combined in one UI (or whether that makes sense)
6272020-09-03T19:48:04  <jonasschnelli> Maybe the design process leads to a new UI...
6282020-09-03T19:48:10  <jeremyrubin> Is it feasible that e.g. different GUIs can link to the same intefaces?
6292020-09-03T19:48:16  <wumpus> in any case we'd need someone that knows how to use QML
6302020-09-03T19:48:38  <sipa> luke-jr: you must hate websites :)
6312020-09-03T19:48:58  <wumpus> jonasschnelli: yes, maybe eventually
6322020-09-03T19:49:04  <luke-jr> sipa: I used Konqueror as long as it was viable ;)
6332020-09-03T19:49:12  <wumpus> I think starting with a "mobile GUI" for core would be good
6342020-09-03T19:49:21  <wumpus> just leave the current one for desktop for now
6352020-09-03T19:49:38  <jonasschnelli> luke-jr: that would be impossible for designers to work with "(colours, widgets, etc) should be entirely determined by the OS".
6362020-09-03T19:49:42  <jeremyrubin> that makes sense to me too; and is something familiar to designers these days (mobile first!)
6372020-09-03T19:49:50  <yanmaani> as a user, I really hate QML
6382020-09-03T19:49:53  <wumpus> which is also the PR I linked
6392020-09-03T19:49:57  <luke-jr> jonasschnelli: then they're bad designers… :/
6402020-09-03T19:50:02  <yanmaani> I really like it when it has a native look, like Core or, arguably better, Electrum
6412020-09-03T19:50:03  <jonasschnelli> yanmaani: on what platform? Desktop?
6422020-09-03T19:50:10  <wumpus> qt widgets is more or less unusable on mobile platforms so it's the first application anyway
6432020-09-03T19:50:14  <yanmaani> Monero has a QML gui, and that looks horrible
6442020-09-03T19:50:21  <yanmaani> jonasschnelli: yeah
6452020-09-03T19:50:32  <yanmaani> mobile is different, but nobody (I hope) runs a full node on their phone
6462020-09-03T19:50:35  <luke-jr> yanmaani: does QML mean non-native? :/
6472020-09-03T19:50:46  <wumpus> people definitely run full nodes on their phones and tablets these days
6482020-09-03T19:50:46  <jonasschnelli> QML means non native widgets
6492020-09-03T19:50:48  <yanmaani> luke-jr: Think of QML like knock-off HTML for GUI development
6502020-09-03T19:50:59  <yanmaani> Try using the Monero GUI, it looks like a website or something
6512020-09-03T19:51:02  <luke-jr> NACK QML then :<
6522020-09-03T19:51:17  <wumpus> this is not going to lead anywhere
6532020-09-03T19:51:19  <jonasschnelli> QT provides some QML basic widgets. But they don't feel like your OSes widgets. Similar to using web-based applications like slack, etc.
6542020-09-03T19:51:29  <yanmaani> I don't have much clout here but I think you should definitely stay native
6552020-09-03T19:51:40  <luke-jr> wumpus: if the direction is bad, best to not follow that lead?
6562020-09-03T19:52:06  <jonasschnelli> I guess there are good and bad native desktop apps as they are good and bad QML desktop apps. It probably depends on how it's made
6572020-09-03T19:52:30  <luke-jr> jonasschnelli: by definition, if it doesn't use native widgets, it is bad. So if you're saying QML means non-native widgets, they are necessarily all bad?
6582020-09-03T19:52:36  *** SkuMHB has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
6592020-09-03T19:52:41  <sipa> luke-jr: that's your opinion....
6602020-09-03T19:52:42  <wumpus> this is not going to lead anywhere? start with a mobile GUI
6612020-09-03T19:52:43  <jonasschnelli> luke-jr: that's only your opinion
6622020-09-03T19:52:50  <jonasschnelli> agree.
6632020-09-03T19:52:51  <moneyball> these are the types of discussions that i'd love to have designers engage with existing Core contributors. discussion on GitHub is one common ground. if there is interest from Core devs to join the biweekly video calls, already hebasto and a few others do, and you're very welcome to that.
6642020-09-03T19:52:56  <wumpus> leave the current one for desktop for now
6652020-09-03T19:53:11  <jonasschnelli> I just repeat my first answer to this topic: [21:46:00]  <jonasschnelli> So whatever comes out of the design process,... implementing it will be a challenge.
6662020-09-03T19:53:16  <sipa> luke-jr: i'd say leave the UI decisions up to those working on it
6672020-09-03T19:53:18  <yanmaani> well it is a bit rude to have the designers have their meetings in Slack and Zoom and whatnot
6682020-09-03T19:53:19  <wumpus> when it has existed for a while we can at some point maybe look at QML for desktop, but I don't want to make that decision now, at all
6692020-09-03T19:53:32  <yanmaani> and then present it, take it or leave it, with some amount of pressure, to the devs
6702020-09-03T19:53:37  *** gribble has quit IRC
6712020-09-03T19:53:37  <wumpus> also, just build whatever you want to build and think is useful, I'm kind of tired of this discussion
6722020-09-03T19:53:38  <jeremyrubin> When someone is doing work you aren't paying for you really can't demand it be on your terms
6732020-09-03T19:53:43  <instagibbs> yanmaani, I didn't get this at all from the comments
6742020-09-03T19:53:48  <yanmaani> it seems like it would make an atmosphere with a bit of bad communication
6752020-09-03T19:53:52  <luke-jr> sipa: I work on UI
6762020-09-03T19:53:58  <yanmaani> it seems like it would be better if everyone used the same platform
6772020-09-03T19:53:59  <luke-jr> sipa: I also use UI
6782020-09-03T19:54:02  <jonasschnelli> we don't have the data points for a decition. Someone need to come up with a live running example
6792020-09-03T19:54:15  <sipa> luke-jr: yes, i don't mean to say that excludes you!
6802020-09-03T19:54:24  <luke-jr> i c
6812020-09-03T19:54:25  <achow101> https://doc.qt.io/qt-5/topics-ui.html#comparison seems to indicate that QML can do the native styling
6822020-09-03T19:54:29  <sipa> luke-jr: but i don't think it's something to work out here
6832020-09-03T19:54:42  <moneyball> yanmaani: I think you misinterpret. I explicitly said above and in my GitHub comment that I agree with luke-jr, we shouldn't require Core developers to go elsewhere for formal discussion.
6842020-09-03T19:54:43  <wumpus> native styling means nothing on mobile platforms anywy, it's fine to start without that
6852020-09-03T19:55:09  <yanmaani> native styling, maybe. It's still notorious for being very sluggish, but that might just be a stereotype
6862020-09-03T19:55:15  <luke-jr> wumpus: Android doesn't have native widgets? Pretty sure it does
6872020-09-03T19:55:18  <jonasschnelli> as for moneyball: I think it is important to tell the designers that the _implementation_ of it will raise tons of questions. Just that they are aware that this project is different to the corporate world.
6882020-09-03T19:55:20  <yanmaani> wumpus: Do app GUIs have much in common with desktop GUIs?
6892020-09-03T19:55:23  <moneyball> However, there is nothing preventing people from using other mediums to communicate with each other. We shouldn't prevent designers from using, say Figma.
6902020-09-03T19:55:24  <wumpus> luke-jr: yes but no one uses them
6912020-09-03T19:55:25  <yanmaani> They're all profoundly different platforms
6922020-09-03T19:55:38  <luke-jr> wumpus: most apps do in my experience
6932020-09-03T19:55:40  *** SkuMHB has quit IRC
6942020-09-03T19:55:42  <yanmaani> moneyball: Right, but then the designers will be discussing without talking to the core devs
6952020-09-03T19:55:49  <luke-jr> wumpus: I think the only exception I know of is Pokemon GO
6962020-09-03T19:55:51  <wumpus> in any case, qt widgets doesn't really work on android ...
6972020-09-03T19:56:00  <luke-jr> ⁇
6982020-09-03T19:56:09  <wumpus> qml does
6992020-09-03T19:56:21  <yanmaani> I mean, my worry is that you might end up with a website that looks "designed by designers" (see: angular/react monstrosities) but is horribly slow
7002020-09-03T19:56:28  <yanmaani> rather than a nice HTML site with a small amount of CSS
7012020-09-03T19:56:37  <jonasschnelli> yanmaani: we all share that worry
7022020-09-03T19:56:41  <moneyball> yanmaani: There has been effort put forth to have Core devs and designers talking to each other. It is already happening. That said, I'm sure we can improve even more so.
7032020-09-03T19:56:43  <yanmaani> uh I mean app
7042020-09-03T19:56:46  <yanmaani> not website
7052020-09-03T19:56:53  <yanmaani> uh I mean program, not app
7062020-09-03T19:57:00  <luke-jr> maybe designers should make image files and coders do the implementation?
7072020-09-03T19:57:06  <wumpus> QML is definitely not 'horribly slow'
7082020-09-03T19:57:18  <jonasschnelli> the opposite
7092020-09-03T19:57:25  <wumpus> it's very well optimized for animations and such
7102020-09-03T19:57:31  <luke-jr> The following list summarizes what you can do with Qt for Android:
7112020-09-03T19:57:31  <instagibbs> It's a lost cause to get everyone on IRC, ship sailed a long time ago. Provided typical Github workflow is followed, there's no issue
7122020-09-03T19:57:32  <luke-jr> Run Widget-based and QML applications on a device or an emulator.
7132020-09-03T19:57:34  <luke-jr> wumpus: ^
7142020-09-03T19:57:35  <yanmaani> That seems like a reasonable idea. It would probably make more sense for designers to try and do higher-level stuff
7152020-09-03T19:57:46  <yanmaani> things like "is this workflow broken", "does it make sense to order the tabs in this way"
7162020-09-03T19:57:51  <wumpus> it's mainly used in kiosks and inflight entertainment and industrial devices etc
7172020-09-03T19:58:00  <wumpus> usually some ARM core
7182020-09-03T19:58:02  <yanmaani> wumpus: Yeah but compare Monero's GUI to Electrum or whatever
7192020-09-03T19:58:03  <hebasto> QML supports hardware acceleration
7202020-09-03T19:58:07  * luke-jr would like to see what Bitcoin Core looks like on Android today
7212020-09-03T19:58:09  <luke-jr> GUI*
7222020-09-03T19:58:10  <yanmaani> It's still extremely big and bloated
7232020-09-03T19:58:11  <jeremyrubin> if you get the designers on IRC, they will leave core, and then work on a more pretty IRC client
7242020-09-03T19:58:19  <sipa> jeremyrubin: hahaha
7252020-09-03T19:58:23  <wumpus> native UI is also 'big and bloated'
7262020-09-03T19:58:24  <luke-jr> hebasto: so does widgets…
7272020-09-03T19:58:24  <jeremyrubin> so let's keep them focused on the task at hand
7282020-09-03T19:58:27  <instagibbs> wait... that sounds great jeremyrubin
7292020-09-03T19:58:31  <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: lol
7302020-09-03T19:58:46  <wumpus> did you look at windowing toolkits recently
7312020-09-03T19:58:52  <sipa> irc is supposed to be ugly! *plays with beard*
7322020-09-03T19:58:55  <instagibbs> everyone should tmux into their IRC machine or log off
7332020-09-03T19:59:17  <sipa> instagibbs: screen, ffs
7342020-09-03T19:59:27  <hebasto> luke-jr: sure?
7352020-09-03T19:59:35  <sdaftuar> instagibbs: i think we call it slack?
7362020-09-03T19:59:56  <moneyball> yanmaani: it is unrealistic to have everyone use the same platform. designers use tools like figma. can you imagine if designers demanded developers to use figma instead of git and whatever your favorite editor is?
7372020-09-03T20:00:06  <luke-jr> hebasto: yes, it's annoying tbh
7382020-09-03T20:00:07  <wumpus> in any case, if the designers don't come up with something better then we can always say no, but I think rejecting any kind of improvement in advance is bad
7392020-09-03T20:00:15  <sipa> wumpus: +1
7402020-09-03T20:00:19  <jeremyrubin> moneyball: designers should use DCC whiteboard only
7412020-09-03T20:00:21  <moneyball> at minimum GitHub will be the common communication platform
7422020-09-03T20:00:22  <luke-jr> hebasto: simple GUIs shouldn't need hw acceleration
7432020-09-03T20:00:32  <jonasschnelli> wumpus: +1
7442020-09-03T20:00:34  <wumpus> this is how you get stuck
7452020-09-03T20:00:36  <yanmaani> moneyball: Sure, but then you end up in a situation where there's almost no communication
7462020-09-03T20:00:39  <sdaftuar> it seems presumptuous to tell other volunteers on this project how to work and collaborate with others
7472020-09-03T20:00:43  <hebasto> luke-jr: agree
7482020-09-03T20:00:45  <jeremyrubin> sdaftuar: +1
7492020-09-03T20:00:46  <yanmaani> they just lock themselves in a room and present a design
7502020-09-03T20:00:57  <yanmaani> Compare bitcoin.org anno 2011 and today
7512020-09-03T20:01:04  <wumpus> yanmaani: please...
7522020-09-03T20:01:16  <luke-jr> hebasto: by default, Qt Widgets uses OpenGL
7532020-09-03T20:01:18  <moneyball> yanmaani: this is not the intention. i am genuinely reaching out here to find ways to avoid your concern
7542020-09-03T20:01:20  <wumpus> meeting time is over
7552020-09-03T20:01:24  <jeremyrubin> (btw for anyone connecting over Tor, please do not accept DCC chats -- easy way to dox yourself)
7562020-09-03T20:01:28  <sdaftuar> moneyball: thanks for sharing this!
7572020-09-03T20:01:37  <wumpus> moneyball: yes, thanks for working on this
7582020-09-03T20:01:46  <jonatack> +1
7592020-09-03T20:01:49  <jonasschnelli> moneyball: thanks!
7602020-09-03T20:01:52  <yanmaani> moneyball: Well, you would want some sort of neutral ground. Like a phpBB forum, or maybe github is good enough.
7612020-09-03T20:01:54  <jeremyrubin> excited to see what comes out!
7622020-09-03T20:02:00  <yanmaani> And slack or keybase or whatever bridged to IRC
7632020-09-03T20:02:07  <instagibbs> achow101, sorry, wife's company only does contracts north of $20k. Can you 1000x your offer?
7642020-09-03T20:02:09  <sipa> yanmaani: "neutral ground"? is this a war?
7652020-09-03T20:02:28  <sipa> yes, IRC bridging may be useful
7662020-09-03T20:02:41  <wumpus> #endmeeting
7672020-09-03T20:02:41  <lightningbot> Meeting ended Thu Sep  3 20:02:41 2020 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
7682020-09-03T20:02:41  <lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-09-03-19.00.html
7692020-09-03T20:02:41  <lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-09-03-19.00.txt
7702020-09-03T20:02:41  <lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-09-03-19.00.log.html
7712020-09-03T20:02:54  <jeremyrubin> \o/
7722020-09-03T20:04:31  *** pinheadmz has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
7732020-09-03T20:04:33  <jonasschnelli> |0/
7742020-09-03T20:05:04  <instagibbs> yanmaani, as I noted, I think the usual github review flows should be followed. There are a number of IRC channels now for various sub-topics(build systems f.e.) but that doesn't allow sidestep of PR lifecycle
7752020-09-03T20:05:22  <instagibbs> so where someone congregates to brainstorm, iterate isn't quite as important
7762020-09-03T20:05:27  *** gribble has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
7772020-09-03T20:05:47  <yanmaani> I think it's basically a matter of how 'young' the ideas are before being brought up publically to discussion.
7782020-09-03T20:06:07  <yanmaani> Too young and you'll be laughed at because it was just idle suggestions. Too old and they'll be solidified and hard to nudge right.
7792020-09-03T20:06:38  <instagibbs> that's up to the subgroups to navigate imo
7802020-09-03T20:07:16  <sipa> yanmaani: yep
7812020-09-03T20:08:38  <achow101> I setup ##bitcoin-core-survey for us to argue about how to do this survey
7822020-09-03T20:08:40  *** AaronvanW has quit IRC
7832020-09-03T20:09:32  <jeremyrubin> To be fair, this conversation would be *VERY* different if we had a world-class GUI. I think the reality is that while we're good in terms of stability (I think core gui doesn't crash often?) core gui isn't fantastic. Some people are graciously offering to help, and we should encourage them to experiment rather than shackling them to "change it but make it identical to what it is now".
7842020-09-03T20:10:28  <jeremyrubin> (I accept some people might feel differently about GUI quality)
7852020-09-03T20:11:08  <yanmaani> I think that there's non-contentious stuff that could be done
7862020-09-03T20:11:20  <yanmaani> things like "does the big log thing to the right on the main screen really need to be there"
7872020-09-03T20:11:30  <jeremyrubin> non-contentious == incremental
7882020-09-03T20:11:31  <yanmaani> where a qualified expert designer can offer lots of insightful advice and is sorely needed
7892020-09-03T20:11:41  <yanmaani> and contentious stuff, like "let's switch to QML"
7902020-09-03T20:12:02  <yanmaani> No, you can have complete overhauls where you completely change the tab structure
7912020-09-03T20:12:04  <instagibbs> I'd be surprised if it ended up wholly replacing the GUI any time soon
7922020-09-03T20:12:09  <instagibbs> whatever it was
7932020-09-03T20:12:11  <yanmaani> Like imagine if they just straight up copied Electrum's layout
7942020-09-03T20:12:18  <yanmaani> but kept the Qt, implementation, etc
7952020-09-03T20:12:40  <yanmaani> I think it would be more productive to ask questions like "what is the best layout" than "what is the best GUI framework"
7962020-09-03T20:12:50  <hebasto> luke-jr: https://forum.qt.io/topic/87509/using-hardware-acceleration-gpu-for-qwidget-paintevent "QWidget doesn't use hardware acceleration"
7972020-09-03T20:13:13  <jonatack> Getting designers to use github/gitlab/etc is already asking them to use tools they don't normally use from what I saw on teams at corporates and startups. IRC, fuggetaboutit. Will check out the design channel to meet them halfway.
7982020-09-03T20:13:20  <jeremyrubin> yanmaani: I think it's ignorant of existing developers struggling with aspects of qt widgets
7992020-09-03T20:13:36  <jeremyrubin> so it's not a problem that's made up just to make new designers happy to use trendy new framework
8002020-09-03T20:13:36  <jonatack> *design slack channel
8012020-09-03T20:13:49  <wumpus> QML is not a 'trendy new framework' anyway
8022020-09-03T20:14:08  <yanmaani> I mean, the basic problem is that you can see Monero using QML
8032020-09-03T20:14:12  <wumpus> it has existed virtually as long as bitcoin has
8042020-09-03T20:14:15  <yanmaani> and it's not very good
8052020-09-03T20:14:18  <jeremyrubin> That's not a problem
8062020-09-03T20:14:23  <jeremyrubin> that's like saying
8072020-09-03T20:14:27  <wumpus> then we should not copy monery, easy as that
8082020-09-03T20:14:31  <jeremyrubin> the problem is craigslist.com uses HTML
8092020-09-03T20:14:40  <jeremyrubin> so it's not good for websites
8102020-09-03T20:14:45  <wumpus> just one example of a bad GUI using QML doesn't invalidate the framework
8112020-09-03T20:14:48  <jeremyrubin> (I like craigslist fwiw)
8122020-09-03T20:14:56  <yanmaani> If there's a persistent pattern of projects using `X` tending to end up like dumpster fires, that's not a good pattern.
8132020-09-03T20:15:00  <hebasto> jonatack: it would be nice if you find opportunity to join calls
8142020-09-03T20:15:03  <yanmaani> React/Angular/jQuery have bad reputations
8152020-09-03T20:15:14  <wumpus> QML is not those
8162020-09-03T20:15:20  <jonatack> hebasto: are they audio or video?
8172020-09-03T20:15:27  <hebasto> video
8182020-09-03T20:15:32  <wumpus> also even those are used for some well-designed GUIs
8192020-09-03T20:15:55  <instagibbs> there are many people who don't give a fig if something is "native" looking fwiw. That's a tiny part of UX
8202020-09-03T20:16:01  <wumpus> e.g. jquery is simply a javascript utiltiy framework, it doesnt impose any specific design
8212020-09-03T20:16:18  <wumpus> instagibbs: only old people care about that :)
8222020-09-03T20:16:21  <yanmaani> it's also very big and bloated, and sites using it tend to have atrocious performance
8232020-09-03T20:16:25  <jeremyrubin> +1; there's also an argument for cross platform consistency being good
8242020-09-03T20:16:27  <hebasto> jonatack: https://github.com/BitcoinDesign/Meta/issues/12
8252020-09-03T20:16:43  <yanmaani> It's not bad per se for them to be non-native, but it usually correlates strongly to a whole host of pathologies
8262020-09-03T20:17:05  <wumpus> yes, they are big and bloated, qml is not though
8272020-09-03T20:17:14  <jeremyrubin> yanmaani: you're just to vague and hand wavey here
8282020-09-03T20:17:23  <wumpus> yes
8292020-09-03T20:17:28  <jeremyrubin> if there's a concrete issue with QML, bring it up
8302020-09-03T20:17:38  <wumpus> this isn't going anywhere, you're just complaining for the sake of complaining here
8312020-09-03T20:17:39  <yanmaani> Fair point. It usually correlates strongly to GUIs that are sluggish and overly animated.
8322020-09-03T20:17:48  <jeremyrubin> but "I don't like how other people use it" isn't the kind of reason that will get you traction here
8332020-09-03T20:17:51  <jonatack> hebasto: thanks. at least it's jitsi, not zoom. might try joining in (with my camera off ;)
8342020-09-03T20:18:09  <wumpus> if people want to do a QML GUI for bitcoin core, let them
8352020-09-03T20:18:15  <yanmaani> With bad latency, and so on. I think that switching the UI framework and redesigning the design are two orthogonal issues
8362020-09-03T20:18:39  <hebasto> jonatack: this morning my camera was off too
8372020-09-03T20:19:21  <yanmaani> The designers are presumably going to have good layout suggestions like "change the receive tab", not just "bitcoin-qt with a different theme". So I think that it is still going to be useful.
8382020-09-03T20:19:25  <wumpus> UI designers tend to not know how to work with qt widgets, so that is off the table
8392020-09-03T20:19:44  <instagibbs> hebasto, remind me in a month or so, I'll probably start listening in on calls too
8402020-09-03T20:19:53  <wumpus> the idea is to get new people involved here\
8412020-09-03T20:19:55  <hebasto> yup
8422020-09-03T20:20:24  <jeremyrubin> I think also w.r.t. layout there's going to be other things that come up that are not layout.
8432020-09-03T20:20:26  <yanmaani> wumpus: The design work doesn't need any such. You can just draw mockups or whatever and have someone else implement it. You could (presumably) do your mockups in QML just fine, that's true
8442020-09-03T20:20:30  <wumpus> no one really knows how to work with qt widgets
8452020-09-03T20:20:46  <wumpus> so who is going to do the work then ?
8462020-09-03T20:21:19  <yanmaani> Aren't there ordinary developers working on the GUI?
8472020-09-03T20:21:22  <sipa> for historic context: the current qt widget ui was originally written by wumpus
8482020-09-03T20:21:40  <wumpus> 'having someone else implement it' doesn't help if no one has the expertise, we're trying to get new people involved
8492020-09-03T20:21:42  <wumpus> yes
8502020-09-03T20:21:43  <instagibbs> did I mention how much I love the QT
8512020-09-03T20:22:06  <yanmaani> GUI implementation expertise =/= design expertise
8522020-09-03T20:22:08  <wumpus> I'm no longer doing that, though
8532020-09-03T20:22:31  <instagibbs> I can fudge with stuff in QT, but anything serious I offload to someone else
8542020-09-03T20:22:46  <sipa> instagibbs: i think that's how most people feel
8552020-09-03T20:23:29  <wumpus> I started very enthousiastically back in the day and just burned out on it, my idea back then was also to get new people involved, but I had overestimated the amount of people in open source that really know how to use (and are good with) qt widgets GUIs
8562020-09-03T20:23:38  <hebasto> It seems Qt is focused on QML -- https://www.qt.io/blog/2019/08/07/technical-vision-qt-6
8572020-09-03T20:23:41  *** Guyver2 has quit IRC
8582020-09-03T20:23:43  <jonatack> hebasto: thanks. so iiuc, next call is 2020-09-17 at 0600 UTC https://github.com/BitcoinDesign/Meta/issues/13
8592020-09-03T20:24:00  <yanmaani> if you wanted to get really grandiose, you'd try and coordinate with Electrum folks
8602020-09-03T20:24:06  <sipa> wumpus: i'd say it was a serious improvement over a pre-release version of wxwidgets :p
8612020-09-03T20:24:13  <yanmaani> on how to design (but not build) the best GUI
8622020-09-03T20:24:14  <hebasto> jonatack: correct
8632020-09-03T20:24:20  <wumpus> sipa: it was! it just got more or less stuck in time
8642020-09-03T20:25:05  <jonatack> hebasto: ok, noting in calendar
8652020-09-03T20:25:12  <luke-jr> wumpus: Qt Widgets isn't hard..
8662020-09-03T20:25:17  <wumpus> fwiw I think the GUI is mostly OK, I do use it myself
8672020-09-03T20:25:35  <yanmaani> agreed
8682020-09-03T20:25:46  <wumpus> luke-jr: still, there are very few people who want to use it, saying "it is not hard" is easy to say
8692020-09-03T20:26:05  <luke-jr> I'm mostly just happy with the current GUI :P
8702020-09-03T20:26:24  <yanmaani> it has some warts though, like the receive tab and the payment request system
8712020-09-03T20:26:36  <luke-jr> yanmaani: ?
8722020-09-03T20:26:37  <jeremyrubin> It's hard to self-evaluate software you've used for a long time. I don't agree with a lot of current design methodology, but there are scientifically rigorous design methodologies e.g. used in the DoD
8732020-09-03T20:26:40  <yanmaani> I've never seen anyone in the wild use the URI stuff, just "send bitcoin to address X"
8742020-09-03T20:26:43  <wumpus> WELL improve it then
8752020-09-03T20:26:44  <wumpus> it's open source
8762020-09-03T20:26:47  <wumpus> scratch your own itch
8772020-09-03T20:26:53  <wumpus> instead of complaining complaining complaining
8782020-09-03T20:27:17  <yanmaani> so it would make more sense to do it like in Electrum - you have a list of addresses, and you can copy them, and see if they're clean.
8792020-09-03T20:27:21  <wumpus> I'm tired of this, just figure it out
8802020-09-03T20:27:35  <luke-jr> yanmaani: that's what we had before. why would you want that⁇
8812020-09-03T20:27:38  <yanmaani> wumpus: the reason I am asking is because I would like to know if others have the same issue
8822020-09-03T20:27:40  <jeremyrubin> current design methodology ==> general designers, not specific to core
8832020-09-03T20:27:51  <yanmaani> and, clearly they don't
8842020-09-03T20:28:05  <luke-jr> the receive tab works great IMO
8852020-09-03T20:28:56  <yanmaani> Well, there's one click to get an address. It would be nice if you got one just by opening the tab.
8862020-09-03T20:29:08  <wumpus> I'm looking forward to what people come up with QML in any case
8872020-09-03T20:29:10  <yanmaani> But if there are good reasons things are as they are, that's obviously a good reason to keep them like they are
8882020-09-03T20:29:21  <luke-jr> yanmaani: how will it guess the label you want?
8892020-09-03T20:30:07  <yanmaani> It won't
8902020-09-03T20:30:24  *** lightlike has quit IRC
8912020-09-03T20:36:04  <jeremyrubin> achow101: hey look at this travis log https://api.travis-ci.org/v3/job/723885222/log.txt
8922020-09-03T20:36:23  <jeremyrubin> err https://travis-ci.org/github/bitcoin/bitcoin/jobs/723885222
8932020-09-03T20:36:46  <jeremyrubin> failure in wallet test, unrelated to PR
8942020-09-03T20:37:43  <achow101> possibly related to #19853 ?
8952020-09-03T20:37:44  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19853 | random wallet_basic failure · Issue #19853 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
8962020-09-03T20:51:25  *** shdx has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
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9012020-09-03T21:21:25  <phantomcircuit> jeremyrubin, transaction has too long of a mempool chain in a pr changing something about the mempool seems likely related
9022020-09-03T21:21:54  <jeremyrubin> I'm fairly certain it's unrelated
9032020-09-03T21:22:30  *** bear1 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
9042020-09-03T21:22:46  <jeremyrubin> the evidence being that all other tests pass & the change does not impact any "logic", just data structures.
9052020-09-03T21:23:19  <jeremyrubin> This type of error can come up in a test if we're not careful with how we generate a txn/children and if we get everything mined at the correct time
9062020-09-03T21:23:22  <achow101> it's the 19853 problem. the failures listed there are the same
9072020-09-03T21:23:46  <jeremyrubin> even better evidence :)
9082020-09-03T21:28:43  <jonatack> yep, saw the same travis ci failure in a couple of PRs reviewed today
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9122020-09-03T22:26:15  * luke-jr wonders if it would be bad to alias make='make -j32'
9132020-09-03T22:29:15  <sipa> luke-jr: i don't know what the optimal number of build threads is, but for test_runner it's huge (a large multiple of core count for me)
9142020-09-03T22:29:44  <luke-jr> sipa: well, I mean the alias itself - will I regret not having -j1 as a default?
9152020-09-03T22:29:45  <aj> depends how much memory you have, c++ takes up a fair chunk
9162020-09-03T22:29:55  <luke-jr> aj: yeah, -j64 wasn't pretty lol
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9212020-09-03T22:34:30  <phantomcircuit> sipa, i've always done -j for the test_runner, on systems with swap it's faster than any limit
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9282020-09-03T22:53:54  <yanmaani> If you want it to go faster why not use meson or something?
9292020-09-03T22:55:45  <sipa> how does a different build system help with that?
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9372020-09-03T23:04:03  <yanmaani> I've always heard meson was faster
9382020-09-03T23:04:11  <yanmaani> But it might just be folklore
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9402020-09-03T23:05:07  <phantomcircuit> yanmaani, the autotools stuff is slow, but that's because it's single threaded, make itself though is quite fast
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9422020-09-03T23:05:58  <yanmaani> I guess you're bottlenecked by the compiler here. The real big-brained move would be to have some way to track the memory size, and spawn new gcc/clang instances when the memory util goes below some level
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9452020-09-03T23:07:32  <sipa> yanmaani: every build system has advantages and disadvantages, but replacing one (and all infrastructure we have on top of it) with another would be an enormous effort
9462020-09-03T23:07:57  <sipa> (and just adding a new one in addition is unlikely to be acceptable, as it means more maintenance work for all contributors)
9472020-09-03T23:08:25  <sipa> also make is super fast, really - the autotools configuring is pretty slow, but that's not the issue here
9482020-09-03T23:09:31  <yanmaani> Right, but if you'd have make with some -jAUTO switch, that would be much faster
9492020-09-03T23:09:49  <yanmaani> if you're constrained by RAM, then sometimes you can run 20 instances at a time and sometimes barely one
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9512020-09-03T23:10:20  <sipa> one -j per GB or RAM is my rule of thumb, and not more than your number of cores
9522020-09-03T23:10:23  <sipa> works well
9532020-09-03T23:12:01  <yanmaani> humans are greedy, they always want more
9542020-09-03T23:12:15  <yanmaani> money, fame, power, build performance, it's all the same really
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9572020-09-03T23:23:44  <luke-jr> sipa: I have 64 GB RAM, so doesn't work well for me :P
9582020-09-03T23:25:21  <luke-jr> yanmaani: something like -l I guess
9592020-09-03T23:25:32  <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, just get more ram and run everything with -j
9602020-09-03T23:25:51  <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: -.-
9612020-09-03T23:25:54  <sipa> luke-jr: your ram is inadequate and you should feel inadequate
9622020-09-03T23:25:55  <aj> i use -j12 with 16GB and 8 cores, seems to be okay
9632020-09-03T23:26:22  <sipa> (i have 32 GiB)
9642020-09-03T23:26:28  <yanmaani> luke-jr: like -l but with RAM yes
9652020-09-03T23:26:55  <aj> oh, i guess i'm not running a web browser on the computer i compile on, so that probably saves 5000 GB or so of ram
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9672020-09-03T23:27:09  <yanmaani> and with mechanisms to kill runaway processes and restart them
9682020-09-03T23:27:37  <achow101> I use -j32 and I have 64 GB
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9712020-09-03T23:28:36  <sipa> yanmaani: that sounds very useful
9722020-09-03T23:28:48  *** arowser has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
9732020-09-03T23:28:58  * sipa volunteers yanmaani to write it
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9752020-09-03T23:29:14  <aj> yanmaani: systemd as a build system?
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9772020-09-03T23:31:37  <yanmaani> an ounce of googling is worth a pound of dev time
9782020-09-03T23:32:49  <dongcarl> aj: Don't give Lennart any new ideas
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9812020-09-03T23:36:06  <luke-jr> sipa: and you run -j32?
9822020-09-03T23:36:34  <luke-jr> yanmaani: actually, SIGSTOP is useful when you hit swap
9832020-09-03T23:36:55  <luke-jr> yanmaani: when/if I do catch myself losing control of RAM, I killall -STOP cc1 and slowly resume them
9842020-09-03T23:39:26  <yanmaani> yep, a script to do that and you're all set
9852020-09-03T23:40:23  <gzhao408> O commanders of CI, please grant me these restarts... for time, the greatest thief, has marked my PR with the ugly red ❌ https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19339/checks?check_run_id=1067833523 https://travis-ci.org/github/bitcoin/bitcoin/jobs/723849508
9862020-09-03T23:46:33  <sipa> luke-jr: yes
9872020-09-03T23:46:59  <achow101> gzhao408: restarted the travis one. dunno how to restart the cirrus one
9882020-09-03T23:47:20  <gzhao408> thank you achow101!  🙏
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9912020-09-03T23:49:54  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] ryanofsky opened pull request #19865: scripted-diff: Restore AssertLockHeld after #19668, remove LockAssertion (master...pr/locka) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19865
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9952020-09-03T23:56:36  <fanquake> practicalswift requested #19065 as their high-prio, so I've added that
9962020-09-03T23:56:39  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19065 | tests: Add fuzzing harness for CAddrMan. Fill some fuzzing coverage gaps. by practicalswift · Pull Request #19065 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub