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 212020-09-07T01:46:23  <yanmaani> will that kill the db4 dependency?
 222020-09-07T01:48:24  <sipa> no
 232020-09-07T01:48:38  <sipa> maybe in a few years, but we need to remain compatible with old wallet files
 242020-09-07T01:49:15  <yanmaani> ah, and I guess there's no such thing as a import-only db4 hollowed out shell
 252020-09-07T01:50:23  <sipa> even if there was, we couldn't use it
 262020-09-07T01:50:32  <sipa> people downgrade after upgrading sometimes
 272020-09-07T01:51:29  <sipa> it's of course hard to guarantee that being possible arbitrarily long, but 1 or 2 major versions at least makes sense (which matches our support window)
 282020-09-07T01:52:39  <yanmaani> But will new wallets from here on out be made using sqlite?
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 342020-09-07T02:33:33  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] grubles opened pull request #19903: Update build-openbsd.md with GUI support (master...update-openbsd-build-instructions) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19903
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 362020-09-07T02:34:14  <luke-jr> I think I prefer bdb over sqlite
 372020-09-07T02:40:30  <yanmaani> how come?
 382020-09-07T02:40:53  <yanmaani> also, why isn't bdb4.8 in the tree, but leveldb is?
 392020-09-07T02:41:23  <sipa> leveldb is consensus critical
 402020-09-07T02:42:40  <sipa> though for release builds it doesn't really matter, gitian uses pinned versions of all dependencies
 412020-09-07T02:44:13  <luke-jr> yanmaani: bdb is time-proven to work reliably and simpler I think
 422020-09-07T02:44:26  <luke-jr> yanmaani: sqlite brings nothing much to the table IMO, and it's closed development
 432020-09-07T02:44:31  * sipa could not disagree more
 442020-09-07T02:44:42  <sipa> bdb reliable? simple?
 452020-09-07T02:44:56  <luke-jr> sipa: when was the last time someone had a wallet lost due to bdb?
 462020-09-07T02:45:34  <luke-jr> and simplicity is compared to sqlite: there isn't a whole SQL layer involved
 472020-09-07T02:45:35  <sipa> luke-jr: me, very recently, after an unclean shutdown... thankfully one without any coins in it
 482020-09-07T02:45:39  <luke-jr> sipa: !
 492020-09-07T02:45:42  <luke-jr> sipa: 4.8?
 502020-09-07T02:45:47  <sipa> 5.3
 512020-09-07T02:45:50  <luke-jr> hmm
 522020-09-07T02:46:26  <sipa> yes, i agree something like sqlite without the sql layer would be even better
 532020-09-07T02:46:32  <sipa> but sqlite is incredibly well tested
 542020-09-07T02:46:49  <sipa> so that's a feature i'm happy to take along, we can just ignore it
 552020-09-07T02:47:05  <luke-jr> can we?
 562020-09-07T02:47:21  <luke-jr> at the very least we need to figure out safe escaping of stuff (though I suspect sqlite includes that)
 572020-09-07T02:47:29  <sipa> no, prepared statements
 582020-09-07T02:47:40  <luke-jr> anyway, time will show if sqlite works well
 592020-09-07T02:47:44  <sipa> you pass in the data as arguments, rather than serialized as strings
 602020-09-07T02:48:08  <luke-jr> sipa: I thought that just let sqlite turn them into strings?
 612020-09-07T02:48:55  <luke-jr> but I haven't read sqlite code lately so maybe I'm outdated
 622020-09-07T02:50:31  <sipa> luke-jr: i suspect no conversion to string and back is done, but i don't think it matters... regardless of what it does, it means we don't need to deal with the complexity of it
 632020-09-07T02:50:35  <yanmaani> sqlite is extremely well tested
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 652020-09-07T02:50:53  <yanmaani> IIRC, it uses int representations internally for ints
 662020-09-07T02:51:11  <sipa> well we'd pass everything as byte arrays
 672020-09-07T02:51:43  <yanmaani> It's not so big, and I think you can use compile flags to gut the SQL engine by some fraction
 682020-09-07T02:52:54  <yanmaani> If you're looking to switch database though, why specifically sqlite, and not say lmdb? Or leveldb?
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 702020-09-07T02:53:31  <sipa> yanmaani: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/18916#issuecomment-670696563
 712020-09-07T02:55:41  <yanmaani> Are wallets big?
 722020-09-07T02:55:53  <yanmaani> In terms of file size
 732020-09-07T02:55:58  <luke-jr> or we can go the KDE route and use MySQL
 742020-09-07T02:56:07  <sipa> luke-jr: aaaargh
 752020-09-07T02:56:08  <sipa> :)
 762020-09-07T02:56:10  <yanmaani> [screams internally]
 772020-09-07T02:56:12  <luke-jr> wait, let's stick to sqlite and just use MySQL for the cache
 782020-09-07T02:56:20  <yanmaani> [screams externally]
 792020-09-07T02:56:21  <luke-jr> (KDE literally uses MySQL for caches)
 802020-09-07T02:56:39  <sipa> yanmaani: 100s of KB to megabytes, typically
 812020-09-07T02:56:49  <yanmaani> can't you just use both?
 822020-09-07T02:57:06  <yanmaani> That would have pretty much all the desiderata
 832020-09-07T02:57:08  <sipa> both what?
 842020-09-07T02:57:12  <luke-jr> keys in bdb and metadata in sqlite?
 852020-09-07T02:57:12  <yanmaani> databases
 862020-09-07T02:57:13  <yanmaani> at once
 872020-09-07T02:57:23  <sipa> both what?
 882020-09-07T02:57:25  <yanmaani> * Reliable - SQLite is reliable
 892020-09-07T02:57:27  <sipa> what are the two options
 902020-09-07T02:57:28  <yanmaani> Both databases
 912020-09-07T02:57:34  <sipa> sqlite and ...?
 922020-09-07T02:57:38  <yanmaani> Both SQLite and BDB4.8 for wallet storage
 932020-09-07T02:57:45  <sipa> w t f would you want that
 942020-09-07T02:57:48  <luke-jr> lol
 952020-09-07T02:57:49  <yanmaani> Lots of reasons
 962020-09-07T02:57:55  <sipa> worst of all worlds
 972020-09-07T02:57:58  <yanmaani> upgrades are seamless - old versions just disregard the sqlite files
 982020-09-07T02:58:06  <yanmaani> downgrades are seamless too
 992020-09-07T02:58:23  <yanmaani> the reliability is sqlite's, of course, since those would be used as master by newer versions
1002020-09-07T02:58:28  <yanmaani> so you'd have full ACID
1012020-09-07T02:58:28  <sipa> i'm not sure what you're suggesting
1022020-09-07T02:58:37  <yanmaani> you get a shorter time to tear out db4
1032020-09-07T02:58:45  <sipa> if what you mean is use bdb for old wallets and sqlite for new ones... that's what the PR does
1042020-09-07T02:59:04  <yanmaani> You use both databases (SQLite3 and BDB4.8) at once. You do not have any internal distinction between "new" and "old" wallets.
1052020-09-07T02:59:12  <sipa> ...
1062020-09-07T02:59:15  <sipa> wtf does that mean
1072020-09-07T02:59:22  <yanmaani> Whenever you open a BDB-only wallet file, it automatically creates a corresponding sqlite wallet
1082020-09-07T02:59:30  <yanmaani> When you create a new wallet, it creates a sqlite and a bdb wallet
1092020-09-07T02:59:31  <sipa> good lord
1102020-09-07T02:59:37  <yanmaani> No, this has lots of good properties!
1112020-09-07T02:59:41  * luke-jr backs away slowly
1122020-09-07T02:59:43  <sipa> go away, please
1132020-09-07T02:59:52  <yanmaani> So, first off, you get the nice properties of SQLite.
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1152020-09-07T03:00:02  <sipa> ...
1162020-09-07T03:00:03  <yanmaani> You wouldn't have the data problems that bdb has. If BDB crashes, too bad, who cares.
1172020-09-07T03:00:11  <yanmaani> But the old versions can still read the BDB version of the database.
1182020-09-07T03:00:20  <sipa> whyyyyyyy
1192020-09-07T03:00:28  <luke-jr> so you basically mean switch to sqlite, but keep a BDB copy updated in case of sudden urge to downgrade?
1202020-09-07T03:00:29  <yanmaani> The code complexity is about the same.
1212020-09-07T03:00:39  <yanmaani> luke-jr: Yes. Because then you can tear out db4 faster.
1222020-09-07T03:00:46  <sipa> i wish you good luck
1232020-09-07T03:00:49  <luke-jr> I don't think that follows
1242020-09-07T03:00:52  <yanmaani> If you do this, then everyone switches to the new version, there will be a sqlite file.
1252020-09-07T03:01:03  <yanmaani> Unless they migrate from v_nosqlite to v_onlysqlite directly
1262020-09-07T03:01:11  <luke-jr> hmm
1272020-09-07T03:01:13  <sipa> all the management issues get multiplied
1282020-09-07T03:01:22  <sipa> what if files are out of sync?
1292020-09-07T03:01:22  <yanmaani> as long as they migrate through one of the intermediate sqlite versions, there will be a sqlite wallet created
1302020-09-07T03:01:33  <sipa> what if people migrated one, but not the other, from one system to another?
1312020-09-07T03:01:44  <yanmaani> How would you migrate only one of them?
1322020-09-07T03:01:47  <yanmaani> If there's only one file, use that
1332020-09-07T03:01:51  <sipa> users are stupid
1342020-09-07T03:02:12  <sipa> if every user was a system administrator, BDB would be an awesome choice
1352020-09-07T03:02:12  <yanmaani> If there's two files, load both and take the one last modified
1362020-09-07T03:02:15  <sipa> that's what it's designed for
1372020-09-07T03:02:22  <sipa> but users aren't
1382020-09-07T03:02:35  <yanmaani> If the users only copy one database file, there's no problem though
1392020-09-07T03:03:00  <sipa> seriously, i can't comprehend how you think that makes anything better
1402020-09-07T03:03:11  <yanmaani> It makes cross-version migration more seamless
1412020-09-07T03:03:14  <sipa> all the issues with the mental overhead of understanding what a wallet is get worse
1422020-09-07T03:03:39  <yanmaani> a wallet is the wallet_dat/ folder
1432020-09-07T03:03:52  <sipa> that's specifially what we should get rid of
1442020-09-07T03:03:56  <sipa> among other things
1452020-09-07T03:04:05  <yanmaani> Yes, when db4 is retired you can get rid of it
1462020-09-07T03:04:09  <yanmaani> and return to wallet.dat(sqlite)
1472020-09-07T03:04:14  <sipa> yay, great
1482020-09-07T03:04:27  <yanmaani> But with this approach, you'll never have the problem of "user installed sqlite version but didn't upgrade his wallet"
1492020-09-07T03:04:33  <sipa> i don't see how making our database a frankenstein-monster-of-bdb-and-sqlite helps with that
1502020-09-07T03:04:35  <yanmaani> because wallet upgrades will be done transparently in the background
1512020-09-07T03:05:03  <yanmaani> because it's only temporary - once everyone has upgraded, you can rip out db4 entirely
1522020-09-07T03:05:13  <sipa> no you can't
1532020-09-07T03:05:21  <sipa> backups need to keep working
1542020-09-07T03:05:24  <sipa> even years old ones
1552020-09-07T03:05:37  <yanmaani> With "old wallet" and "new wallet", if you're to rip out db4, users will at some point in time have to convert them
1562020-09-07T03:05:51  <sipa> yes
1572020-09-07T03:06:01  <yanmaani> can't they just be asked to download an old version? But yes, that's a good point otherwise
1582020-09-07T03:06:04  <sipa> but i don't see how doing what you suggests allows doing this any earlier
1592020-09-07T03:06:16  <yanmaani> In my model, users would never have to upgrade formats manually
1602020-09-07T03:06:24  <yanmaani> first they have db4-only wallets
1612020-09-07T03:06:31  <yanmaani> then they have db4+sqlite wallets
1622020-09-07T03:06:44  <yanmaani> then db4 is dropped, and they have <garbage>+sqlite wallets
1632020-09-07T03:06:51  <yanmaani> the conversion would be done silently and transparently to the user
1642020-09-07T03:06:56  <sipa> i really really don't see the advantage
1652020-09-07T03:07:05  <sipa> even ignoring all the disadvantages
1662020-09-07T03:07:18  <yanmaani> easier migration process, no need for users to make the effort of upgrading wallet from sqlite to db4
1672020-09-07T03:07:53  <sipa> unless they missed the window during which versions with mixed support existed
1682020-09-07T03:08:18  <yanmaani> yeah, but that's still much less user effort isn't it?
1692020-09-07T03:08:45  <sipa> eh
1702020-09-07T03:08:56  <sipa> it's something that i expect will happen in 5 years or so
1712020-09-07T03:08:59  <sipa> maybe more
1722020-09-07T03:09:39  <sipa> i'm more concerned about things working in the next release than what happens then
1732020-09-07T03:09:40  <yanmaani> You might also just say "we're done with db4, if you load a db4 wallet you will be given the option to convert or exit, you can't just load it"
1742020-09-07T03:10:08  <yanmaani> whenever you get fed up with it
1752020-09-07T03:10:15  <sipa> and i really don't want to think about all the things that can go wrong with duplicated bdb+sqlite wallets
1762020-09-07T03:10:18  <yanmaani> Will you be using sqlite's encryption layer too?
1772020-09-07T03:10:36  <sipa> look at the PR, i'm not the author :)
1782020-09-07T03:10:39  <sipa> i don't think so
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1872020-09-07T03:57:38  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] meshcollider pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/56d47e19edca...78cb45d72251
1882020-09-07T03:57:39  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master abac436 João Barbosa: wallet: Avoid multiple BerkeleyBatch in DelAddressBook
1892020-09-07T03:57:39  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 78cb45d Samuel Dobson: Merge #19738: wallet: Avoid multiple BerkeleyBatch in DelAddressBook
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1922020-09-07T03:57:58  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] meshcollider merged pull request #19738: wallet: Avoid multiple BerkeleyBatch in DelAddressBook (master...2020-08-deladdressbook) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19738
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1942020-09-07T04:03:48  <meshcollider> yanmaani: no, not using their encryption stuff
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2002020-09-07T04:38:31  <achow101> sipa, yanmaani: armory does something like that. they use some custom binary format that isn't super upgradeable. So to migrate to the new storage method, they make a copy of the wallet in the new storage
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2022020-09-07T04:39:31  <achow101> yanmaani: migrating a bdb wallet to sqlite could be done without bdb. The database structure is known, so it wouldn't be too hard to write something that just deserializes the database to fetch the records, then writes them to a new sqlite wallet
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2142020-09-07T05:47:11  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #19905: Remove dead CheckForkWarningConditionsOnNewFork (master...2009-noFork) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19905
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2392020-09-07T07:11:45  <vasild> sipa: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19728#pullrequestreview-469679233 "Why not treat all addresses equally (ie relay always to 2 nodes, even addresses from unreachable networks)?"
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2432020-09-07T07:17:58  <sipa> vasild: maybe that's what will be needed, but i'd like to retain the existing behavior of primarily relaying reachable addresses
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2452020-09-07T07:18:14  <sipa> so that ipv6 nodes find eachother preferentially etc
2462020-09-07T07:18:36  <vasild> ack
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2562020-09-07T07:52:13  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 4 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/78cb45d72251...07087051afe9
2572020-09-07T07:52:14  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master eeee110 MarcoFalke: Remove mempool global from init
2582020-09-07T07:52:14  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa0359c MarcoFalke: Remove mempool global from p2p
2592020-09-07T07:52:15  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fafb381 MarcoFalke: Remove mempool global
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2622020-09-07T07:52:44  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #19556: Remove mempool global (master...Mf1808-txpoolGlobal) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19556
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2982020-09-07T10:01:24  <jnewbery> Great stuff Marco. Really good to see progress being made there. Thanks for getting it done.
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3032020-09-07T10:10:13  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/07087051afe9...25839661305e
3042020-09-07T10:10:14  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 46d955d Jeremy Rubin: Remove mapLinks in favor of entry inlined structs with iterator type erasu...
3052020-09-07T10:10:15  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 296be8f Jeremy Rubin: Get rid of unused functions CTxMemPool::GetMemPoolChildren, CTxMemPool::Ge...
3062020-09-07T10:10:15  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2583966 MarcoFalke: Merge #19478: Remove CTxMempool::mapLinks data structure member
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3092020-09-07T10:10:44  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #19478: Remove CTxMempool::mapLinks data structure member (master...epoch-mempool-clean-split-3) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19478
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3202020-09-07T10:42:13  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] naumenkogs opened pull request #19906: Bugfix: don't make collision from "tried" a feeler  (master...2020-09-feeler-no-collisions) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19906
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3502020-09-07T12:17:03  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] dr-orlovsky opened pull request #19907: util: add psbt combiner role (master...feat/psbt-combiner) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19907
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3602020-09-07T12:58:45  <yanmaani> achow101: If that's the case then maybe you could do it like: have a bdb database, open it, move all the stuff into a sqlite database
3612020-09-07T12:59:02  <yanmaani> on a clean shutdown, copy the data back into bdb, sync, exit
3622020-09-07T12:59:10  <yanmaani> (and remove sqlite)
3632020-09-07T12:59:18  <yanmaani> on a dirty shutdown, sqlite will still persist
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4032020-09-07T14:46:32  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] naumenkogs closed pull request #19906: Bugfix: don't make collision from "tried" a feeler  (master...2020-09-feeler-no-collisions) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19906
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4062020-09-07T14:46:52  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] naumenkogs reopened pull request #19906: Bugfix: don't make collision from "tried" a feeler  (master...2020-09-feeler-no-collisions) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19906
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4092020-09-07T14:48:57  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #19909: txmempool: Remove unused clear() member function (master...2009-noTxpoolClear) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19909
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4302020-09-07T15:49:39  <achow101> yanmaani: copying everything back into bdb is way harder than just reading data from it
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4382020-09-07T16:12:37  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 11 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/25839661305e...147d50d63e07
4392020-09-07T16:12:37  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 824bbd1 John Newbery: [move only] Collect all private members of PeerLogicValidation together
4402020-09-07T16:12:38  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2297b26 John Newbery: [net_processing] Pass chainparams to PeerLogicValidation constructor
4412020-09-07T16:12:39  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 58bd369 John Newbery: scripted-diff: [net processing] Rename PeerLogicValidation to PeerManager
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4452020-09-07T16:12:55  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #19791: [net processing] Move Misbehaving() to PeerManager (master...2020-08-misbehaving-in-plv) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19791
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4532020-09-07T16:24:34  <luke-jr> achow101: btw, have you looked into if sqlite ever leaves stale/deleted data in db files?
4542020-09-07T16:25:22  <achow101> luke-jr: it does, but there's an option that can be enabled to overwrite the data
4552020-09-07T16:25:41  <luke-jr> cool
4562020-09-07T16:25:49  <achow101> that operation can also be done as a one time thing. IIRC I have set it to do that after encrypting
4572020-09-07T16:33:52  <phantomcircuit> achow101, you going to use wal or no?
4582020-09-07T16:33:58  <achow101> phantomcircuit: no
4592020-09-07T16:34:15  <achow101> wal is the cause of a bunch of bdb issues
4602020-09-07T16:34:34  <phantomcircuit> yeah
4612020-09-07T16:34:54  <phantomcircuit> it's why there's flush's everywhere and those do i think 3 fsync each call
4622020-09-07T16:35:28  <achow101> yeah, the PR explicitly disables wal too
4632020-09-07T16:37:26  <phantomcircuit> achow101, should set application_id as well
4642020-09-07T16:37:49  <achow101> hmm
4652020-09-07T16:37:55  <achow101> I suppose so
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4682020-09-07T16:48:47  <phantomcircuit> achow101, is there manual vacuum being done? i dont see it
4692020-09-07T16:49:09  <achow101> It's in the Rewrite() function
4702020-09-07T16:52:54  <phantomcircuit> also need to set checkpoint_fullfsync if you want real fsync on osx
4712020-09-07T16:53:17  <phantomcircuit> wait no you want fullfsync
4722020-09-07T16:55:22  <achow101> You should leave comments on the PR
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4742020-09-07T17:05:26  <phantomcircuit> achow101, btw i think sqlite in it's normal, non wal operation does create a separate journal file, but only for the time between the transaction commit and the fsync completing
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4762020-09-07T17:05:53  <achow101> phantomcircuit: yes, but it deletes it later
4772020-09-07T17:06:03  <achow101> everything still ends up in the database file after the write
4782020-09-07T17:06:09  <phantomcircuit> yeah immediately after the fsync completes
4792020-09-07T17:06:59  <phantomcircuit> achow101, did you consider opening the file with an exclusive lock?
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4812020-09-07T17:07:50  <achow101> yes, but we already lock the .walletlock file in the directory so I don't think it's needed
4822020-09-07T17:07:58  <phantomcircuit> im writting a comment on the pr with some of this stuff btw
4832020-09-07T17:10:08  <phantomcircuit> achow101, also i notice that you implemented EraseKey which is called by nothing
4842020-09-07T17:10:40  <achow101> eh? Isn't it called by EraseIC?
4852020-09-07T17:12:44  <phantomcircuit> achow101, once again github search lies to me
4862020-09-07T17:12:59  <achow101> lol
4872020-09-07T17:13:06  <phantomcircuit> it feels like an elastic search cluster that's missing a server constantly
4882020-09-07T17:13:15  <phantomcircuit> (i think it's literally that, but azure)
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4902020-09-07T17:17:47  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jnewbery opened pull request #19910: net processing: Move peer_map to PeerManager (master...2020-08-peer-plv2) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19910
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5222020-09-07T19:33:06  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] narula opened pull request #19911: net: guard vRecvGetData with cs_vRecv and orphan_work_set with g_cs_orphans (master...cs_vRecv) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19911
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5312020-09-07T20:34:38  <jnewbery> hi folks. Reminder that tomorrow at 15:00 UTC is the next p2p meeting. We have one proposed topic so far: https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoin-devwiki/wiki/P2P-IRC-meetings#8-sept-2020
5322020-09-07T20:34:41  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/8 | RPC command to sign text with wallet private key · Issue #8 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
5332020-09-07T20:34:58  <jnewbery> Feel free to add proposed topics to the wiki
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5592020-09-07T22:00:26  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #19913: refactor: Drop unused `UniqueLock(Mutex*, ...)` constructor in sync.h (master...200907-sync) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19913
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