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  2 2016-03-18T00:24:07  <GitHub136> [bitcoin] pstratem opened pull request #7708: De-neuter NODE_BLOOM (master...2016-03-17-nodebloom) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7708
  3 2016-03-18T00:25:39  <GitHub192> [bitcoin] sdaftuar opened pull request #7709: Tests: fix missing import in mempool_packages (master...fix-mempool-packages-2) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7709
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 18 2016-03-18T01:54:13  <GitHub187> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #7710: [Depends] Bump miniupnpc (master...depends-02) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7710
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 20 2016-03-18T02:17:12  <GitHub16> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #7711: [build-aux] Update Boost & check macros to latest serials (master...build-aux-change) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7711
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 44 2016-03-18T04:19:17  <GitHub125> [bitcoin] promag opened pull request #7712: Improve COutPoint less operator (master...enhancement/improve-coutpoint-less-operator) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7712
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 75 2016-03-18T07:16:13  <GitHub18> [bitcoin] jonasschnelli closed pull request #6641: De-neuter NODE_BLOOM (master...bloom-disable) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6641
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 82 2016-03-18T07:51:07  <GitHub197> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 7 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/f034bced269c...73b7eb501e64
 83 2016-03-18T07:51:08  <GitHub197> bitcoin/master 6851107 Pieter Wuille: BIP9 Implementation...
 84 2016-03-18T07:51:08  <GitHub197> bitcoin/master 732e774 Pieter Wuille: Versionbits tests
 85 2016-03-18T07:51:09  <GitHub197> bitcoin/master d23f6c6 Pieter Wuille: Softfork status report in RPC
 86 2016-03-18T07:51:14  <GitHub90> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #7575: Minimal BIP9 implementation (master...bip9) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7575
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 90 2016-03-18T08:08:18  <btcdrak> \o/
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 98 2016-03-18T08:57:19  <devplop> Hi, do I have to download the entire blockchain if I want to use bitcoind on my server? thanks
 99 2016-03-18T08:58:11  <jonasschnelli> devplop: yes. But you can use -prune to remove "old blocks".
100 2016-03-18T08:58:41  <jonasschnelli> devplop but you should discuss that in #bitcoin (this is the development channel)
101 2016-03-18T09:00:41  <devplop> thanks jonasschnelli
102 2016-03-18T09:00:43  <devplop> But it would be on a website for user to be able to create wallet etc. this is development right?
103 2016-03-18T09:01:22  <jonasschnelli> devplop: hmm.. not sure what you mean with that
104 2016-03-18T09:01:27  <devplop> approximately, what percentage it remove?
105 2016-03-18T09:02:18  <jonasschnelli> you mean -prune? It's flexible.
106 2016-03-18T09:02:23  <devplop> I'm developping a website wich use bitcoind, this is not development? or here we only talk about developement of bitcoin itself
107 2016-03-18T09:02:55  <devplop> ok thanks, do you know a place I can find a documentation about this?
108 2016-03-18T09:03:06  <jonasschnelli> This channel is for bitcoin-core development only. You can use #bitcoin-dev
109 2016-03-18T09:03:28  <jonasschnelli> devplop: theres is a dev. documentation on bitcoin.org
110 2016-03-18T09:04:07  <devplop> thanks again, I can't go to bitcoin-dev, where do I have to register?
111 2016-03-18T09:04:49  <jonasschnelli> Just join the channel #bitcoin-dev ?
112 2016-03-18T09:05:17  <devplop> #bitcoin-dev Cannot join channel (+r) - you need to be identified with services
113 2016-03-18T09:06:24  <jonasschnelli> There are plenty user in this channel,.. you might face a local IRC issue.
114 2016-03-18T09:06:44  <devplop> ok thanks
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117 2016-03-18T09:17:10  <btcdrak> devplop: you have to use /nickserv help
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122 2016-03-18T10:04:23  <wumpus> paveljanik: don't forget to create an issue for the Qt 5.8 support (what changed in qt 5.8, what error you now get, etc)
123 2016-03-18T10:09:35  <GitHub57> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/73b7eb501e64...efde86b4aae6
124 2016-03-18T10:09:35  <GitHub57> bitcoin/master e38781d Suhas Daftuar: Tests: fix missing import in mempool_packages
125 2016-03-18T10:09:36  <GitHub57> bitcoin/master efde86b Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #7709: Tests: fix missing import in mempool_packages...
126 2016-03-18T10:09:45  <GitHub113> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #7709: Tests: fix missing import in mempool_packages (master...fix-mempool-packages-2) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7709
127 2016-03-18T10:10:03  <paveljanik> wumpus, I thought you do not want to see "reminder"  issues ;-)
128 2016-03-18T10:10:07  <paveljanik> ok, ok, will do.
129 2016-03-18T10:10:09  <paveljanik> :-)
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131 2016-03-18T10:10:27  <wumpus> paveljanik: but right now I'm confused about what the problem is
132 2016-03-18T10:10:55  <wumpus> a build failure with a new version of a dependency seems a good reason to open an issue, anyhow
133 2016-03-18T10:11:16  <wumpus> so is this on every platform or just say, OS X?
134 2016-03-18T10:11:50  <paveljanik> I'll collect everything and create an issue, in ~1 hour.
135 2016-03-18T10:11:55  <wumpus> thanks!
136 2016-03-18T10:12:12  <paveljanik> lunch now :-)
137 2016-03-18T10:19:32  <GitHub11> [bitcoin] petertodd opened pull request #7713: Fixes for verify-commits script (master...2016-03-fix-verify-commits) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7713
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142 2016-03-18T10:35:45  <paveljanik> #7714: Build with Qt 5.6 not supported
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144 2016-03-18T10:37:12  <wumpus> paveljanik: ah, so this seems OS X-focused
145 2016-03-18T10:37:23  <wumpus> upstream issue explicitly mentions "frameworks"
146 2016-03-18T10:37:59  <paveljanik> maybe. But the similar problem was reported by kwin people. So I think it is generic.
147 2016-03-18T10:38:08  <paveljanik> will download other OS binary to see.
148 2016-03-18T10:38:35  <jonasschnelli> missing .pc file will probably break all platforms?!
149 2016-03-18T10:39:19  <wumpus> well the .pc files were broken on MacOSX in some cases, maybe they've removed them because of that
150 2016-03-18T10:39:26  <paveljanik> maybe they are missing on OS X only. Do not know. I'm checking Linux now.
151 2016-03-18T10:39:36  <wumpus> I would be really surpised (and disappointed) if they removed them on unix/linux
152 2016-03-18T10:39:49  <wumpus> there's not really a replacement for pkgconfig on linux
153 2016-03-18T10:40:16  <paveljanik> they probably expect projects to use cmake and their files.
154 2016-03-18T10:40:19  <wumpus> (well ok, manually specifying all the directories)
155 2016-03-18T10:40:30  <wumpus> cmake uses pkgconfig too IIRCI
156 2016-03-18T10:40:54  <wumpus> cmake is just an autoconf replacement, it doesn't replace pkg-config
157 2016-03-18T10:41:48  <paveljanik> OMG 661MB...
158 2016-03-18T10:41:56  <wumpus> pkg-config is not part of any specific make system, it is just linux's way of locating development headers and libraries, OS X has this 'framework' system instead
159 2016-03-18T10:43:26  <wumpus> paveljanik: make sure you download qtbase not the full thing, it's crazy - it's said it contains three copies of webkit, and many other ballast: https://twitter.com/whitequark/status/700583315254829057
160 2016-03-18T10:43:47  <paveljanik> nevermind, already downloaded 8)
161 2016-03-18T10:44:31  <paveljanik> hmm: qt-opensource-linux-x64-5.6.0.run: ELF ;-)
162 2016-03-18T10:44:51  <paveljanik> so it has to be run in the VM
163 2016-03-18T10:44:57  <paveljanik> it will take longer
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165 2016-03-18T10:50:40  <paveljanik> it needs X to install or Linux build env which I do not have readily available from here now :-(
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168 2016-03-18T11:01:25  <paveljanik> later
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170 2016-03-18T11:03:58  <wumpus> paveljanik: someone else can do it
171 2016-03-18T11:04:20  <wumpus> paveljanik: btw, are you able to build if you manually specify all the library and header paths using the appropriate configure settings?
172 2016-03-18T11:04:48  <paveljanik> bash command line too long I guess ;-)
173 2016-03-18T11:04:59  <paveljanik> The change in qt is:
174 2016-03-18T11:04:59  <paveljanik> https://codereview.qt-project.org/gitweb?p=qt/qtbase.git;a=commitdiff;h=6c5d227da1709eb81968823f38a133747c0e95b0
175 2016-03-18T11:05:22  <paveljanik> so I guess that on "unix"/mingw, it will be OK.
176 2016-03-18T11:05:39  <paveljanik> have to leave now, sorry. Will be back later today.
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179 2016-03-18T11:24:15  <GitHub16> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/efde86b4aae6...29e1131c4642
180 2016-03-18T11:24:15  <GitHub16> bitcoin/master fa4a522 MarcoFalke: [qa] Add tests verifychain, lockunspent, getbalance, listsinceblock
181 2016-03-18T11:24:16  <GitHub16> bitcoin/master 29e1131 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #7702: [qa] Add tests verifychain, lockunspent, getbalance, listsinceblock...
182 2016-03-18T11:24:25  <GitHub162> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #7702: [qa] Add tests verifychain, lockunspent, getbalance, listsinceblock (master...Mf1603-qaCleanup2) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7702
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187 2016-03-18T11:52:22  <qwebirc646325>  does anyone know if its possible to fork bitcoin to createe a new coin with support for sending 1 satoshi
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191 2016-03-18T12:03:35  <qwebirc646325> or if a fork could elimnate transaction fees
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193 2016-03-18T12:09:44  <wumpus> qwebirc646325: altcoins can make whatever change they want
194 2016-03-18T12:10:40  <wumpus> although both examples you meantion aren't even consensus rules. Any miner could accept transactions of one satoshi, or accept transactions without fee (some even do).
195 2016-03-18T12:10:42  <qwebirc646325> great
196 2016-03-18T12:11:44  <qwebirc646325> how much needs to be changed in the source to create an altcoin
197 2016-03-18T12:11:54  <wumpus> this is not the place for altcoin questions
198 2016-03-18T12:12:05  <btcdrak> ##altcoin-dev
199 2016-03-18T12:19:03  <JackH> come on guys, the altcoin might become the biggest thing ever!
200 2016-03-18T12:19:14  <JackH> you dont know what you are missing out on
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202 2016-03-18T12:25:42  <wumpus> hah
203 2016-03-18T12:27:14  <JackH> nice on BIP9 btw :)
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205 2016-03-18T13:00:33  <morcos> gmaxwell: wumpus: sipa: sorry for being a pest, but I would like some direction on this getbalance mess.  does one of you want to talk it through with me?
206 2016-03-18T13:02:33  <wumpus> morcos: at least ignore the accounts stuff
207 2016-03-18T13:02:43  <wumpus> yes, balances can be off with accounts, we know that
208 2016-03-18T13:02:59  <sipa> morcos: i've been thinking about it
209 2016-03-18T13:03:09  <sipa> and i wonder how it was really ever intended to work
210 2016-03-18T13:03:18  <morcos> wumpus: well.  that would lead to us not actually solving the problem that Cocodude first brought to us
211 2016-03-18T13:03:28  <sipa> wumpus: it's not that simple
212 2016-03-18T13:03:41  <morcos> also i'm most concerned by the fact that the account balances are what is used for sendfrom and sendmany
213 2016-03-18T13:03:59  <sipa> morcos: ??
214 2016-03-18T13:04:14  <sipa> wumpus: the account balance calculation is very strongly related to the computation of transaction 'effects' (which is what listtransactions lists)
215 2016-03-18T13:04:15  <morcos> those functions get the available balance by calling GetAccountBalance
216 2016-03-18T13:04:22  <sipa> what?
217 2016-03-18T13:04:23  <wumpus> I don't think so, the send functions allow balances to go negative
218 2016-03-18T13:04:31  <wumpus> (account balances)
219 2016-03-18T13:05:19  <sipa> morcos: ... you're right, i thought that was changed in... 0.3.x
220 2016-03-18T13:05:49  <morcos> my proposal was to just special case check if the given account is "" and then not use GetAccountBalance
221 2016-03-18T13:05:54  <wumpus> people are finally looking at the wallet code in detail, that's good to hear :)
222 2016-03-18T13:06:02  <morcos> but this is getting to be an invasive change for a point release
223 2016-03-18T13:06:21  <wumpus> yes, try to solve it for master at least
224 2016-03-18T13:06:27  <sipa> any correct solution is going to result in the account balances being correct anyway
225 2016-03-18T13:06:37  <morcos> sipa: or removing accounts?
226 2016-03-18T13:06:38  <sipa> if you can't get account balances right, listtransactions will also be wrong
227 2016-03-18T13:06:50  <sipa> because they use the same code
228 2016-03-18T13:06:56  <wumpus> maybe it's just too much of a change for a point release, that's a fair conclusion
229 2016-03-18T13:07:00  <morcos> what do you mean by listtransactions being wrong?
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231 2016-03-18T13:07:44  <morcos> wumpus: well the problem is we probably ought to do something.  there is a problem in the released code now.  its a matter of deciding what we should do for 0.12.1.  then there is a second question of what we should do for master.
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233 2016-03-18T13:08:13  <morcos> are we at the point where we can remove accounts?  if so, that is what we should do for master, b/c anything else is just a recipe for further problems down the road
234 2016-03-18T13:08:49  <wumpus> yes, we should definitely remove account balances
235 2016-03-18T13:08:51  <morcos> to be honest, i'm not really interested in taking the time to understand the accounting system well enough to try to make it work properly.  (since i don't believe its something we want to long term support)
236 2016-03-18T13:09:07  <wumpus> people use other account functionality (e.g. they use them as labels)
237 2016-03-18T13:09:25  <wumpus> but the balance logic is incorrect and dangerous
238 2016-03-18T13:10:16  <morcos> wumpus: so my suggestion is if you don't really intend to be using account balances but you just are b/c thats the only way to get the total sum balance, then we should instead make you not use account balances
239 2016-03-18T13:10:24  <sipa> morcos: there are two ways to look at the wallet; 1) as a set of utxos 2) as a sequence of balance updates
240 2016-03-18T13:10:24  <morcos> this exists in at least 3 places now
241 2016-03-18T13:11:13  <morcos> 1) getbalance (where you want to specify a confirm requirement you have to fill in an account argument), sendfrom, sendmany
242 2016-03-18T13:11:23  <morcos> sorry, that was all 3
243 2016-03-18T13:11:47  <sipa> morcos: effectively, you either iterate over the transactions to find which of its outputs are available
244 2016-03-18T13:12:05  <sipa> morcos: or you iterate over transactions to see which utxos they add/remove
245 2016-03-18T13:12:19  <sipa> the first is used by listunspent and getbalance "*"
246 2016-03-18T13:12:31  <sipa> the second is used by listtransactions and getbalance acc
247 2016-03-18T13:12:41  <morcos> sipa: yes, but i think thinking of it as a sequence of balance updates is fairly complicated when sometimes you want things to count for reducing your balance but not for adding to it. (in the case of unconfirmed txs)
248 2016-03-18T13:13:17  <morcos> sipa: actually getbalance "*" is more similar (but a separate code path) to getbalance acc i think
249 2016-03-18T13:14:18  <sipa> morcos: my point is that if you can't compute balance updates correctly, listtransactions will be wrong
250 2016-03-18T13:14:34  <sipa> because listtransactions does not list transactions, but balance updates caused by transactioms
251 2016-03-18T13:15:26  <sturles> At least some people use accounts.  If you remove accounts in the segwit release, it may impact the upgrade speed negatively.  E.g. I will have to code an entirely new solution for my system before I can use a version without accounts.
252 2016-03-18T13:15:48  <morcos> sipa: i'm not sure i understand still.  i think it'll list all the balance updates as you say.  what it won't do is provide you an intelligent way to add them up to arrive at something meaningful
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254 2016-03-18T13:16:04  <morcos> but i think each individual one would make some kind of sense depending on how you look at it
255 2016-03-18T13:16:41  <morcos> the question comes when you are trying to decide whether you want to count the balance update in your total or not, but with listtransactions, you don't have to make that choice
256 2016-03-18T13:16:46  <wumpus> sturles: I'm talking about removing account balances, not remove all the account related RPCs
257 2016-03-18T13:17:06  <sipa> sturles: those are independent; if we make any meaningful changes to the account system, it will be in a major release and not backported
258 2016-03-18T13:17:10  <morcos> sturles: yes we wouldn't remove accounts for segwit release, that would be for a major version
259 2016-03-18T13:17:15  <sipa> sturles: consensus changes like segwit are always backported
260 2016-03-18T13:17:16  <wumpus> account balances are unreliable, the other parts are not.
261 2016-03-18T13:18:17  <morcos> sipa: did that make sense what i just said?  i'm not sure what you think will be "wrong" about listtransactions
262 2016-03-18T13:18:34  <sipa> morcos: both use CWallet::GetAmounts
263 2016-03-18T13:19:15  <morcos> yes, but i think the problem is in the filtering of whats returned from GetAmounts and listtransactions doens't filter it
264 2016-03-18T13:19:26  <sipa> hmm
265 2016-03-18T13:19:28  <sipa> ok
266 2016-03-18T13:19:46  <sipa> but we have so many different states a transaction can be in
267 2016-03-18T13:19:47  <sturles> Much of my system relies on account balances beeing correct. :-/
268 2016-03-18T13:20:07  <sturles> Account balances have always been reliable for me.
269 2016-03-18T13:20:13  <wumpus> that's very dangerous
270 2016-03-18T13:20:23  <sipa> wumpus: i think account balances are perfectly well defined
271 2016-03-18T13:20:27  <morcos> sturles: i think it had some broken behavior in 0.11 and it has some other broken behavior in 0.12
272 2016-03-18T13:20:34  <wumpus> sipa: I've heard otherwise
273 2016-03-18T13:20:37  <sturles> Oh?
274 2016-03-18T13:20:47  <wumpus> sipa: I certainly wouldn't recommend anyone to rely on them
275 2016-03-18T13:20:49  <sipa> they have unexpected behaviour wrt unconfirmed transactions
276 2016-03-18T13:20:50  <sturles> Is there a bug report I can read?
277 2016-03-18T13:21:11  <wumpus> the thing is, no one really understands it, it's just too messy
278 2016-03-18T13:21:16  <midnightmagic> Before I retired it, I had a wallet where almost all the accounts had negative balances.
279 2016-03-18T13:21:19  <morcos> wumpus: +1
280 2016-03-18T13:21:24  <wumpus> did you read the convo between morcos and sipa above?
281 2016-03-18T13:21:51  <wumpus> those are two long-term developers, who have worked on the code for a long time, and they're surprised about how some of the account things work - doesn't that say enough?
282 2016-03-18T13:22:19  <sipa> i think we should go over the possible states a transaction can be in, and think about what their effect on listtransactions, listunspent, and getbalance should be (independent from accounts)
283 2016-03-18T13:22:52  <wumpus> the problem is also that whatever broken behavior accounts have, people may be relying on it, even if it's unknown to us
284 2016-03-18T13:23:00  <sipa> 1) confirmed 2) unconfirmed but in mempool 3) unconfirmed not in mempool 4) unconfirmed not in mempool, abandoned 5) unconfirmed not in mempool, known to conflict
285 2016-03-18T13:23:02  <morcos> sipa: ok.  are you narrowing the discussion to differences in behavior between 0.11 and 0.12?
286 2016-03-18T13:23:30  <sturles> I can't say I understand how the code works, but I do understand how accoutns work.  Negative balances are not a problem.  I use negative balances as well, in my accounting.
287 2016-03-18T13:23:37  <wumpus> sturles: see also https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/3816
288 2016-03-18T13:24:04  <sipa> morcos: no, i first want to know what we think the ideal behaviour should be
289 2016-03-18T13:24:05  <morcos> sipa: and when you say getbalance, you have to refer to what arguments you are using.   btw, there is also getunconfirmedbalance
290 2016-03-18T13:24:07  <wumpus> and I'm sure there is previous discussion
291 2016-03-18T13:24:27  <sipa> morcos: ok, so we should treat those separately
292 2016-03-18T13:24:31  <sipa> also, there is immature
293 2016-03-18T13:24:39  <morcos> sipa: well i'm just trying to avoid the rabbit hole of trying to fix accounts perfectly.  i htink a better goal is to avoid regressions, and work towards removing accounts
294 2016-03-18T13:24:44  <sipa> and non-final
295 2016-03-18T13:24:48  <wumpus> morcos: +1
296 2016-03-18T13:24:51  <sipa> morcos: i'm not trying to fix accounts
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298 2016-03-18T13:25:05  <midnightmagic> sturles: The wallet in my case had a total balance adding the accounts up, to a value different than the listunspent returned.
299 2016-03-18T13:25:09  <sturles> wumpus: Yes, malleability issues messed with my accounting as well back in 2014, but I didn't have the problem during the last malleability attack where someone changed lots of transactions.
300 2016-03-18T13:25:29  <sipa> morcos: i want to know what we think the correct behaviour should be for those different types of transactions, on listunspent, getbalance, getunconfirmedbalance, listtransactions
301 2016-03-18T13:25:35  <sturles> midnightmagic: OK, I can't explain that.
302 2016-03-18T13:25:37  <sipa> no account-related calls in that list
303 2016-03-18T13:25:46  <wumpus> midnightmagic: yes that was quite common at a certain point
304 2016-03-18T13:25:48  <morcos> ok, so if you don't want to worry about calling  getbalance("", n) or getbalance("*", n) or what gets used in sendfrom, sendmany, then i don't think its that hard
305 2016-03-18T13:25:57  <sturles> midnightmagic: Some transaction cleaned out (abandoned) perhaps?
306 2016-03-18T13:26:17  <wumpus> the account system has pretty much been unmaintained from 2011-2012 or so
307 2016-03-18T13:26:55  <morcos> the thing we discovered yesterday, was that tx type 5 in your list above is not necessarily distinguishable from tx type 3
308 2016-03-18T13:27:00  <midnightmagic> gmax tried to help me debug it, but at some point I abandoned the code and that wallet and rebuilt everything and respent it. Still not more than 95% sure I swept it all up.
309 2016-03-18T13:28:06  <sipa> morcos: yes, i know
310 2016-03-18T13:28:09  <morcos> this is a crap ton of stuff to write up.  i think i can do that reasonably well for 0.11, 0.12 and proposed fix
311 2016-03-18T13:28:20  <sipa> morcos: so presumably we want to treat 3 and 5 the same, apart from reporting
312 2016-03-18T13:28:29  <morcos> great. agreed with that
313 2016-03-18T13:28:34  <wumpus> yes
314 2016-03-18T13:28:44  <sipa> ... which means that the introduction of 5 was maybe overkill
315 2016-03-18T13:29:07  <sipa> though i guess it can be useful for example for the gui to be able to suggest abandoning
316 2016-03-18T13:29:13  <morcos> oh wait, sorry
317 2016-03-18T13:29:23  <morcos> i don't actually agree we treat them the same
318 2016-03-18T13:29:40  <wumpus> sipa: in some cases you may also want to treat transactions that you sent yourself differently from received ones
319 2016-03-18T13:29:52  <morcos> exactly
320 2016-03-18T13:30:17  <morcos> if you are considering whether your inputs are spent.  3) considers them spent, 5) doesn't
321 2016-03-18T13:30:17  <wumpus> (I miss that in the list, but maybe that's a cartesian product)
322 2016-03-18T13:30:35  <morcos> sorry whether your available coins are spent
323 2016-03-18T13:30:55  <morcos> if you are considering whether you have new available coins to spend 3) and 5) should both be no you don't
324 2016-03-18T13:31:02  <wumpus> e.g. the wallet could create a transaction, but you have wallet broadcasting disabled
325 2016-03-18T13:31:26  <wumpus> you'd still want it to subtract from your balance and hold the inputs, at least until abandoned
326 2016-03-18T13:31:39  <morcos> yes
327 2016-03-18T13:32:56  <morcos> let me write all that up in detail, i can do that.  what i want to know is a proposed solution for getbalance("", n), sendfrom, sendmany ?  in particular the problem reported to us was a result of getbalance("",0)
328 2016-03-18T13:33:13  <wumpus> in any case, making all of this consistent is too much for a point release, this would be something for a major release (+mention in release notes)
329 2016-03-18T13:34:10  <sipa> sturles, midnightmagic: since you guys use/used the account system, were you relying on sendfrom/sendmany failing when you send from an account with a too low balance?
330 2016-03-18T13:34:56  <morcos> wumpus: actually the code changes are going to be small.  probably just the first commit on 7706, plus potentially this question of skipping account accounting and using global balances when the account is "" in those 3 rpc calls
331 2016-03-18T13:35:48  <sturles> sipa: I did at some point, but not now.
332 2016-03-18T13:36:31  <sipa> that's the one thing that surprises me today, finding out that they do a balance check
333 2016-03-18T13:36:51  <sipa> because there are several other ways in which account balances can ge negative without any protection
334 2016-03-18T13:37:29  <sturles> Yep, especially the "" account.
335 2016-03-18T13:37:37  <morcos> sipa: oh, that hadn't occurred to me, that it wasn't important
336 2016-03-18T13:37:40  <sturles> Otherwise it is mostly due to fees.
337 2016-03-18T13:38:33  <sipa> morcos: well, maybe it is, and i just don't know!
338 2016-03-18T13:38:50  <morcos> well that makes things a lot easier, then i would suggest we don't change anything other than the first commit in 7706 and we can tell people that if they want total unconfirmed balance they should call getbalance() + getunconfirmedbalance() and not use getbalance("", 0)
339 2016-03-18T13:39:28  <morcos> that would make me happy.  minimal changes.
340 2016-03-18T13:40:11  <sipa> morcos: it was an intentional change at some point very long ago (i believe in the 0.3.2x days), to not protect against account balances going negative, because it wasn't even possible
341 2016-03-18T13:40:31  <morcos> its only through my stupidity in not knowing how getbalance("", 0) works that we even realized there is a problem in the wallet.cpp getunconfirmed balance code.
342 2016-03-18T13:40:58  <midnightmagic> sipa: I've been using only the rawtx interface for too long to remember my use of accounts. gmax told me early on to stop using it. i was lazy and never cared if the send* failed or not for whatever reason. post-accounting aggregation has never been a concern for me. :-( Sorry man.
343 2016-03-18T13:41:25  <sipa> morcos: for example, the move RPC has a 'minconf' argument that is ignored
344 2016-03-18T13:41:43  <morcos> yeah i didn't even realize that RPC existed until yesterday
345 2016-03-18T13:41:56  <sipa> morcos: it used to check whether there was enough balance in the account being moved from, at the given confirmation level
346 2016-03-18T13:42:21  <midnightmagic> sturles: my accounts went into the thousands negative
347 2016-03-18T13:43:00  <sipa> morcos: so if there is any change we make to this, i'd say we remove that check entirely...
348 2016-03-18T13:43:16  <morcos> so i do think there was a regression in 0.12 in how bad account balances are as a result of this business with unconfirmed txs...   but maybe we should just let that be, other than communicating it
349 2016-03-18T13:43:48  <morcos> sipa: my concern was when you weren't trying to use it for accounts!  isn't the only way to sendmany to do sendmany with the "" account
350 2016-03-18T13:44:24  <sipa> right
351 2016-03-18T13:44:27  <sturles> You cam make the numbers negative with move as well, of course.  In the millions negative.
352 2016-03-18T13:44:53  <sipa> sturles: yeah, that's exactly what i was saying above, move and sendtoaddress don't check balance
353 2016-03-18T13:45:01  <sipa> so why would sendfrom/sendmany?
354 2016-03-18T13:45:20  <sturles> I have used that trick a few times, to make enough funds available in the account I was sending from. :-)
355 2016-03-18T13:46:39  <morcos> sipa: ah ok.  now i see.  i was worried that sendmany with a "" account would create transaction that spent too many funds.  but it won't.  CreateTransaction will stop it.
356 2016-03-18T13:46:50  <sturles> I see no reason why sendmany or sendfrom should check the balance of an account, but make sure to make a strong note of it in the release notes..
357 2016-03-18T13:47:05  <morcos> thats why i was concerned about it.
358 2016-03-18T13:47:54  <sturles> Alternatively make it an option to check the balance.
359 2016-03-18T13:48:33  <sipa> sturles: which is called getbalance :)
360 2016-03-18T13:48:44  <morcos> I think we should just make minimal changes and announce a removal timeline for accounts.  Seems a lot for 0.13, maybe 0.14
361 2016-03-18T13:49:30  <morcos> I'll put it in a fresh PR, so its cleaner
362 2016-03-18T13:49:58  *** Thireus has quit IRC
363 2016-03-18T13:58:35  <GitHub7> [bitcoin] morcos opened pull request #7715: Fix calculation of balances and available coins. (master...fixconflicts_take2) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7715
364 2016-03-18T13:59:01  <GitHub85> [bitcoin] morcos closed pull request #7706: [WIP] Fix calculation of balances and available coins. (master...fixconflicts2) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7706
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372 2016-03-18T14:39:34  <morcos> sipa: wumpus: ok checkout #7715, i _think_ that chart is right.
373 2016-03-18T14:39:57  <wumpus> nice work!
374 2016-03-18T14:40:17  <morcos> probably needs someone to make sure its right though
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376 2016-03-18T14:48:49  <btcdrak> morcos: <3 that chart
377 2016-03-18T14:55:34  <sipa> morcos: awesome!
378 2016-03-18T14:55:56  <sipa> (i had no idea github had so many icons...)
379 2016-03-18T14:58:59  <morcos> I perhaps did not make it clear enough that the red triangle can't lead to bad things.  In other words you won't reduce your balance for coins spent if those were coins that weren't included in your balance.
380 2016-03-18T14:59:28  <morcos> The fearful face can I think lead to bad things though.
381 2016-03-18T15:00:08  <sipa> morcos: use :arrow_down: instead of the red triangle?
382 2016-03-18T15:00:28  <sipa> and :warning: for the unhappy face?
383 2016-03-18T15:01:44  <morcos> ah, good arrow down is better, but i like the fearful face.  you should be fearful!
384 2016-03-18T15:01:57  <sipa> ok!
385 2016-03-18T15:09:29  *** zooko has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
386 2016-03-18T15:17:09  <wumpus> sipa: it has a crazy number of them, see http://www.emoji-cheat-sheet.com/ :)
387 2016-03-18T15:17:49  <wumpus> (I think they originally took them from campfire, which is owned by the same company, but I may be confused)
388 2016-03-18T15:19:33  <wumpus> the idea of them actually being useful is new and surprising to me, though, nice idea morcos
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390 2016-03-18T15:31:26  <wumpus> yes, the fearful faces are scary, why would you ever want to 'trust' unconfirmed transactions received but not those sent by yourself
391 2016-03-18T15:31:46  <wumpus> well ok 'trust' is overstated, it only affect the *unconfirmed* balance
392 2016-03-18T15:32:07  <wumpus> but still it seems inconsistent, if it has any effect for receiving it should also for spending
393 2016-03-18T15:32:26  <wumpus> (or neither)
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395 2016-03-18T15:33:35  <morcos> wumpus: sure, or you could just send yourself txs over and over again and increase your balance wily-nily (i think)
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399 2016-03-18T15:36:30  <wumpus> morcos: oh no, you found a bitcoin cheat code :D
400 2016-03-18T15:37:58  *** jannes has quit IRC
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402 2016-03-18T15:38:20  *** B4ckJ4ck007 has quit IRC
403 2016-03-18T15:38:57  <GitHub85> [bitcoin] morcos opened pull request #7716: [0.12] Backport BIP9 and softfork for BIP's 68,112,113 (0.11...backportBIP9SoftFork) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7716
404 2016-03-18T15:39:24  <morcos> oops, that was for 0.11
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406 2016-03-18T15:40:18  <wumpus> morcos: btw, non-final received transactions will never reach the wallet
407 2016-03-18T15:40:46  <morcos> wumpus: well, almost, they could in a reorg
408 2016-03-18T15:40:54  <wumpus> I mean they're rejected by the mempool code
409 2016-03-18T15:41:04  <wumpus> hm right
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413 2016-03-18T17:16:13  *** qwebirc646325 has quit IRC
414 2016-03-18T17:33:33  <GitHub157> [bitcoin] btcdrak closed pull request #7693: [0.11] Backport BIP112 CHECKSEQUENCEVERIFY mempool-only (0.11...bip112-backport-0.11) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7693
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419 2016-03-18T18:02:04  <jtimon> now that I have a good computer...can't the rpc tests be parallelized?
420 2016-03-18T18:02:28  <jtimon> at least for people with zmq installed or something
421 2016-03-18T18:03:26  <jtimon> just thinking out loud, don't take this too seriously yet
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423 2016-03-18T18:06:05  <sipa> i don't see how zmq is relevant for that
424 2016-03-18T18:06:33  <sipa> you could run multiple tests in parallel though, just running different bitcoind's in different directories side by side
425 2016-03-18T18:07:46  <jtimon> yeah, forget about that, just that I like to use zmq for concurrency in python, sorry for bringing that up
426 2016-03-18T18:09:07  <jtimon> to your second comment, yes, that's what I was thinking, but with -j56 instead of having to think about it, it was just a wish in the open
427 2016-03-18T18:10:14  <jtimon> to be perfectly clear, the goal is running ```python ./qa/pull-tester/rpc-tests.py -extended -j4``` or something like that
428 2016-03-18T18:10:35  <jtimon> but as said is just a random thought
429 2016-03-18T18:11:16  <sipa> that sounds totally reasonable and doable
430 2016-03-18T18:11:49  <jtimon> zmq is just the way I would support that, so totally forget about if you don't like zmq/nanomsg
431 2016-03-18T18:13:10  <jtimon> for me, messaging is the simplest way to levereage both threads and processes transparently
432 2016-03-18T18:13:55  <sipa> there is nothing to communicate even
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434 2016-03-18T18:14:20  <sipa> just run multiple tests at the same time, and make sure they use separate directories/ports
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436 2016-03-18T18:18:31  <jtimon> yeah, if anybody has a script that does that, please share. If I ever write it myself (which would still be prefarable to me than your "this can be done relatively easily manually"), I would do it using python and zmq, but as said that's just an irrelevant side-note
437 2016-03-18T18:19:00  <jtimon> in the meantime python ./qa/pull-tester/rpc-tests.py -extended is not all that bad
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441 2016-03-18T18:21:03  <jtimon> anyway, just wishful comments while I learn more about our wonderful testing setup
442 2016-03-18T18:21:35  <jtimon> rpc python testing newbie here
443 2016-03-18T18:21:41  <jtimon> still
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445 2016-03-18T18:23:40  <jtimon> but that is good, that means unittests alone captured most of my stupid thoughts previously
446 2016-03-18T18:25:45  <jtimon> and I have a good computer to start testing other people's things more deeply, sorry for the distraction, shouldn't think out loud here
447 2016-03-18T18:27:19  <sipa> jtimon: i really don't understand where zmq comes in
448 2016-03-18T18:27:46  <sipa> i'd be in favor of implememting multithreaded testing in rpc-tests.py
449 2016-03-18T18:28:14  <sipa> using a -j flag like you suggest
450 2016-03-18T18:28:23  <jtimon> just for concurrency, seriously, just forget about that whole part, I shouldn't have mentioned it, there's 3000 other ways to do concurrency in python
451 2016-03-18T18:28:49  <sipa> ok :)
452 2016-03-18T18:28:52  <jtimon> yeah, the -j option is the whole point
453 2016-03-18T18:29:23  <sipa> but zmq is for communicating between processes, what do you expect to communicate?
454 2016-03-18T18:29:30  <sipa> anyway, nvm :)
455 2016-03-18T18:29:52  <sipa> if you feel like implementing it, and feel like zmq is useful for that, please do :)
456 2016-03-18T18:30:20  <jtimon> zmq hs many use cases than you think, I think, but I'm happy that we have decoupled the topics
457 2016-03-18T18:30:43  <jtimon> s/many/more
458 2016-03-18T18:30:57  <jtimon> but yeah, nvm
459 2016-03-18T18:34:26  <jtimon> I mean, if I implement it (which will depend on how often I run ./qa/pull-tester/rpc-tests.py -extended from now on) I will use that, and if anybody else does before me, the script can be written in php for all I care
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461 2016-03-18T18:42:33  <jtimon> TLDR; catching up on testing, I can't remember last time I gave a full ACK instead of just an utACK for something that wasn't obviously correct to me, oh, wait...that should never have happened, I'm virgo that way :p
462 2016-03-18T18:43:03  <sipa> haha
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465 2016-03-18T19:04:17  <GitHub17> [bitcoin] morcos closed pull request #7695: [0.11] Backport BIP 68 mempool only (0.11...68backport) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7695
466 2016-03-18T19:19:58  <btcdrak> wumpus: 7716 should be tagged consensus
467 2016-03-18T19:20:31  <btcdrak> morcos: BIP is merged, you can send that email
468 2016-03-18T19:21:24  <btcdrak> wumpus: 7543 also needs to be tagged consensus now
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472 2016-03-18T19:48:37  <morcos> btcdrak: email sent
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475 2016-03-18T20:06:33  <wumpus> hm this is interesting, ubuntu 16.04 doesn't install python 2 by default anymore
476 2016-03-18T20:06:49  <wumpus> no /usr/bin/python nor /usr/bin/python2
477 2016-03-18T20:06:54  <wumpus> this breaks 'make check'
478 2016-03-18T20:07:34  <wumpus> it is possible to install python 2.7 using 'apt-get install python2.7` but this will only give you a /usr/bin/python2.7, no /usr/bin/python nor /usr/bin/python2...
479 2016-03-18T20:08:03  <wumpus> this is fucking annoying as it effectively makes it possible to refer to it as interpreter at the top of scripts
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483 2016-03-18T20:11:01  <wumpus> impossible*
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486 2016-03-18T20:20:56  <btcdrak> RIP python 2
487 2016-03-18T20:22:12  <wumpus> yea
488 2016-03-18T20:30:21  <btcdrak> wumpus: wait, do you have a time machine? It's only 16.03 last time I looked...
489 2016-03-18T20:31:08  <wumpus> yes, I inherited satoshi's delorean
490 2016-03-18T20:32:32  <wumpus> (you can find beta images for ubuntu 16.04)
491 2016-03-18T20:32:39  <sipa> damn
492 2016-03-18T20:32:48  <sipa> ubuntu 16
493 2016-03-18T20:33:00  <sipa> what happens to the past decade?
494 2016-03-18T20:33:14  <sipa> i think i started using ubuntu in 2006
495 2016-03-18T20:33:32  <wumpus> heh, me too, around 2005-2006, where goes the time
496 2016-03-18T20:33:44  <wumpus> before that I used gentoo and before that slackware
497 2016-03-18T20:35:14  <sipa> debian, gentoo, ubuntu here
498 2016-03-18T20:40:39  <paveljanik> slackware, red hat, suse, os x
499 2016-03-18T20:49:06  <Luke-Jr> kinda our fault for still using Python2..
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501 2016-03-18T20:53:07  <cfields> wumpus: yea, that's really annoying. Is there no convention for a python2/python3 shebang, at least?
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503 2016-03-18T20:54:34  <ka> http://oortr.com/ZjllYz
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507 2016-03-18T21:02:59  <btcdrak> cfields: I think you can use #!/usr/bin/env python
508 2016-03-18T21:04:10  <sipa> btcdrak: that requires a binary named python, no?
509 2016-03-18T21:04:20  <cfields> btcdrak: yea, looks like the convention is to use env python2/env python3. but that breaks according to wumpus's findings above
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522 2016-03-18T21:30:49  <paveljanik> ok, I have hacked Qt5.6 build on OS X.
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524 2016-03-18T21:35:30  <sipa> hey ebfull
525 2016-03-18T21:36:23  <ebfull> how's it going sipa
526 2016-03-18T21:36:53  <ebfull> grats on the versionbits work
527 2016-03-18T21:37:58  <ebfull> sipa: btw look at the dates: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5220  https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6954
528 2016-03-18T21:37:59  <ebfull> told ya :D
529 2016-03-18T21:39:45  <instagibbs> now I feel smart for writing my python tests compatible for both python2 and 3 :)
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532 2016-03-18T21:44:44  <cfields> paveljanik: nice. what'd it take?
533 2016-03-18T21:45:03  <paveljanik> I'm now entering a few hacks into the issue, mmnt.
534 2016-03-18T21:45:05  <paveljanik> almost done
535 2016-03-18T21:45:51  <paveljanik> cfields, you can probably help to clean it up ;-)
536 2016-03-18T21:48:02  <paveljanik> cfields, comment added #7714
537 2016-03-18T21:49:42  <paveljanik> remember #5728...
538 2016-03-18T21:51:07  <cfields> paveljanik: ah, so it's just the osx frameworks that don't ship the .pc's ?
539 2016-03-18T21:51:47  <paveljanik> I do not have a chance to test Linux downloads or source code distro.
540 2016-03-18T21:51:54  <sipa> ebfull: remember remember the fifth of november
541 2016-03-18T21:56:33  <cfields> paveljanik: hmm
542 2016-03-18T21:57:38  <paveljanik> but we can home that brew/macports will fix both parts again... Or teach Qt to do that correctly.
543 2016-03-18T21:58:57  <sipa> ebfull: it's not the commit date nor the merge date, though; just the date the PR was submitted
544 2016-03-18T22:01:51  <cfields> paveljanik: it's annoying that they disable the .pc that helps us find the bins...
545 2016-03-18T22:01:59  <cfields> i wonder if they could be talked out of that part
546 2016-03-18T22:04:22  <cfields> paveljanik: mind pasting the contents of Qt5UiTools.pc ?
547 2016-03-18T22:09:45  <cfields> paveljanik: heh: https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew/commit/620baaf10c957875d9d2b958343456f0d35d15fc
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