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  34 2016-10-13T04:17:52  <warren> cfields: how's the deterministic toolchain coming?
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  65 2016-10-13T06:52:31  <wumpus> cfields: I have backtraces for https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/8910 . That didn't help much I'm afraid though.
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  82 2016-10-13T08:22:42  <GitHub157> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/d0754799698d...d270c30d5530
  83 2016-10-13T08:22:42  <GitHub157> bitcoin/master 3f92bc9 Wladimir J. van der Laan: doc: Add build instructions for FreeBSD
  84 2016-10-13T08:22:43  <GitHub157> bitcoin/master d270c30 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #8892: doc: Add build instructions for FreeBSD...
  85 2016-10-13T08:22:58  <GitHub150> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #8892: doc: Add build instructions for FreeBSD (master...2016_10_freebsd_build) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8892
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  87 2016-10-13T08:31:02  <GitHub5> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/d270c30d5530...8d46429c83ec
  88 2016-10-13T08:31:03  <GitHub5> bitcoin/master 8aed5f6 Wladimir J. van der Laan: qt: Translate all files, even if wallet disabled...
  89 2016-10-13T08:31:03  <GitHub5> bitcoin/master 8d46429 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #8911: qt: Translate all files, even if wallet disabled...
  90 2016-10-13T08:31:14  <GitHub129> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #8911: qt: Translate all files, even if wallet disabled (master...2016_10_qt_translations_wallet2) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8911
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 558 2016-10-13T10:35:26  <GitHub12> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 1 new commit to 0.13: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/633c4a1f3690152bdda4b0ac7bcfde22c237183e
 559 2016-10-13T10:35:27  <GitHub12> bitcoin/0.13 633c4a1 Wladimir J. van der Laan: qt: Periodic translations update...
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 606 2016-10-13T14:39:44  <BlueMatt> #8904 doesnt need backporting - the test is overspecified but thats ok, just needs fixing on master
 607 2016-10-13T14:39:53  <BlueMatt> nvm, no one is here, I'll post on github
 608 2016-10-13T14:46:50  <sipa> if nobody is here, who are you?
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 611 2016-10-13T14:48:49  <BlueMatt> I am your Conscience
 612 2016-10-13T14:49:03  <sipa> if nobody is here, who am i?
 613 2016-10-13T14:49:15  <BlueMatt> you are my Conscience
 614 2016-10-13T14:51:24  <bsm117532> RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded
 615 2016-10-13T14:51:52  * btcdrak segfaults
 616 2016-10-13T14:51:54  <sipa> so i'm my own conscience's conscience?
 617 2016-10-13T14:54:01  <kanzure> dmv5 says no
 618 2016-10-13T14:55:09  <bsm117532> I wouldn't rely on a DSM5 you got from the DMV :-P
 619 2016-10-13T14:57:58  <kanzure> oh oops.
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 625 2016-10-13T15:16:34  <btcdrak> wumpus: is there a meeting today?
 626 2016-10-13T15:16:39  <BlueMatt> yes
 627 2016-10-13T15:17:02  <btcdrak> wumpus: you've changed your hair colour?
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 631 2016-10-13T15:48:22  <wumpus> btcdrak: yes re: meeting, no re: hair colour
 632 2016-10-13T15:51:35  <wumpus> thanks for reminding me it's thursday though, I'd probably have forgot the meeting otherwise :)
 633 2016-10-13T15:52:15  *** adiabat has quit IRC
 634 2016-10-13T15:52:16  <sipa> i can confirm that at least until yesterday around noon, wumpus' hair color had not changed measurably
 635 2016-10-13T16:19:26  <jtimon> updated https://github.com/jtimon/consensus-doc/blob/generated/libconsensus.pdf with more images. any comments or suggestions welcomed
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 640 2016-10-13T16:22:06  <jtimon> or questions
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 643 2016-10-13T16:36:02  <GitHub104> [bitcoin] laanwj opened pull request #8914: Kill insecure_random and associated global state (master...2016_10_kill_insecurerandom) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8914
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 649 2016-10-13T16:48:57  <GitHub196> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/8d46429c83ec...e2a17e43e36f
 650 2016-10-13T16:48:57  <GitHub196> bitcoin/master 4cdece4 Dagur Valberg Johannsson: [qa] Fix compact block shortids for a test case
 651 2016-10-13T16:48:58  <GitHub196> bitcoin/master e2a17e4 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #8904: [qa] Fix compact block shortids for a test case...
 652 2016-10-13T16:49:12  <GitHub114> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #8904: [qa] Fix compact block shortids for a test case (master...shortid-coinbase) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8904
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 655 2016-10-13T16:57:07  <GitHub192> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/e2a17e43e36f...e2b8c394d61d
 656 2016-10-13T16:57:08  <GitHub192> bitcoin/master 4408558 jonnynewbs: Update bitcoin-tx to output witness data.
 657 2016-10-13T16:57:08  <GitHub192> bitcoin/master e2b8c39 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #8817: update bitcoin-tx to output witness data...
 658 2016-10-13T16:57:17  <GitHub18> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #8817: update bitcoin-tx to output witness data (master...bitcoin-tx-witness) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8817
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 664 2016-10-13T17:40:18  <GitHub60> [bitcoin] petertodd opened pull request #8915: Add copyright/patent issues to possible NACK reasons (master...2016-10-13-sound-legal-justification) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8915
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 667 2016-10-13T18:14:16  <MarcoFalke> wumpus: I think it is better to just cherry-pick https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8643
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 670 2016-10-13T18:22:56  <wumpus> yes, I'm working on backports now, will include that one
 671 2016-10-13T18:23:46  <wumpus> #8393 is turning out a bit tricky (due to CConnMan) the rest seems easy
 672 2016-10-13T18:24:42  <achow101> I think #8899 can be merged
 673 2016-10-13T18:25:20  <instagibbs> achow101, no it can not. There is an outstanding bug.
 674 2016-10-13T18:25:54  <instagibbs> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8499#issuecomment-253184633
 675 2016-10-13T18:26:07  <achow101> instagibbs: 8899, not 8499 (notice the 8)
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 677 2016-10-13T18:26:19  <instagibbs> ah :)
 678 2016-10-13T18:28:05  <wumpus> yes, #8899 seems ready (not #8499)
 679 2016-10-13T18:30:20  <wumpus> I think sipa has a good point there, but I'm not sure of the matter, it's probably better to just take over boost's patch
 680 2016-10-13T18:30:28  <wumpus> maybe the issue should be raised upstream though
 681 2016-10-13T18:31:45  <thomasthetank> hey, when i verify my txoutproof it returns incorrect txids
 682 2016-10-13T18:33:23  <thomasthetank> i noticed the txoutproof size goes from 248 to 235 bytes after being parsed
 683 2016-10-13T18:33:26  <jl2012> i hope 8499 will be ready in a few days. I have a branch here but sipa is working on a different solution: https://github.com/jl2012/bitcoin/commits/badwitnesscheck-1012
 684 2016-10-13T18:33:32  <thomasthetank> is that standard
 685 2016-10-13T18:34:34  <wumpus> thomasthetank: not sure, may be better to file an issue on github w/ exact input and output
 686 2016-10-13T18:39:38  *** thomasthetank has quit IRC
 687 2016-10-13T18:40:32  <GitHub164> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #8643: [0.13 backport] Added feeler connections increasing good addrs in the tried table. (0.13...2016/08/feeler_013) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8643
 688 2016-10-13T18:44:57  <GitHub192> [bitcoin] laanwj opened pull request #8916: 0.13.1 backports (0.13...2016_10_backports) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8916
 689 2016-10-13T18:47:39  *** jcorgan has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 690 2016-10-13T18:53:03  <wumpus> woohoo, just #8499 left https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pulls?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=is%3Apr%20%20label%3A%22Needs%20backport%22%20milestone%3A0.13.1%20
 691 2016-10-13T18:55:17  <GitHub144> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to 0.13: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/633c4a1f3690...4ed26277347c
 692 2016-10-13T18:55:17  <GitHub144> bitcoin/0.13 49be9f0 Michael Ford: Fix wake from sleep issue with Boost 1.59.0
 693 2016-10-13T18:55:17  <GitHub189> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #8899: [0.13] Fix wake from sleep issue with Boost 1.59.0 (0.13...backport-boost-windows-patch) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8899
 694 2016-10-13T18:55:18  <GitHub144> bitcoin/0.13 4ed2627 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #8899: [0.13] Fix wake from sleep issue with Boost 1.59.0...
 695 2016-10-13T18:57:20  <BlueMatt> woohoo
 696 2016-10-13T18:57:27  <BlueMatt> !
 697 2016-10-13T19:00:12  <sipa> doing
 698 2016-10-13T19:00:20  <achow101> meeting?
 699 2016-10-13T19:00:27  <gmaxwell> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr btcdrak sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier
 700 2016-10-13T19:00:34  <kanzure> hi.
 701 2016-10-13T19:00:34  <btcdrak> ping
 702 2016-10-13T19:00:39  <instagibbs> pre-sent
 703 2016-10-13T19:00:48  <sdaftuar> hi
 704 2016-10-13T19:00:54  <jtimon> hi
 705 2016-10-13T19:01:00  <BlueMatt> o where art though fearless leader wumpus
 706 2016-10-13T19:01:02  <michagogo> hi
 707 2016-10-13T19:01:10  <gmaxwell> Who called this meeting?
 708 2016-10-13T19:01:22  <BlueMatt> wumpus: said we were meeting earlier
 709 2016-10-13T19:01:32  <gmaxwell> Obviously a trap.
 710 2016-10-13T19:01:36  <BlueMatt> anyway, topic recommendations while we're waiting for a #?
 711 2016-10-13T19:01:48  <jtimon> I assume 0.13.1
 712 2016-10-13T19:01:58  <kanzure> 0.13.0 wallet bug about importaddress and scriptpubkeys
 713 2016-10-13T19:02:09  <kanzure> (and witnesses)
 714 2016-10-13T19:02:48  <gmaxwell> Backport statuses
 715 2016-10-13T19:02:57  <jtimon> libconsensus verifyBlock vs processBlock (ie the latter takes care of reorgs, updates the utxo, etc)
 716 2016-10-13T19:03:03  <kanzure> jtimon: thanks for https://github.com/jtimon/consensus-doc/blob/generated/libconsensus.pdf
 717 2016-10-13T19:03:18  <kanzure> jtimon: i suggest emailing that to mailing list at some point
 718 2016-10-13T19:03:20  <achow101> prefinal alert
 719 2016-10-13T19:03:27  <jtimon> kanzure: I already did
 720 2016-10-13T19:04:02  <wumpus> #startmeeting
 721 2016-10-13T19:04:02  <lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Oct 13 19:04:02 2016 UTC.  The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
 722 2016-10-13T19:04:02  <lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
 723 2016-10-13T19:04:49  <BlueMatt> ok, start with 13.1 status update?
 724 2016-10-13T19:04:52  <wumpus> #topic 0.13.1
 725 2016-10-13T19:04:56  <jtimon> kanzure: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2016-October/013204.html
 726 2016-10-13T19:05:10  <wumpus> I've just done all the remaining backports in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8916
 727 2016-10-13T19:05:12  <BlueMatt> looks like we're one pr away from 13.1, sipa jl2012 or sdaftuar, where are we?
 728 2016-10-13T19:05:19  <sipa> close.
 729 2016-10-13T19:05:20  <BlueMatt> on 8916
 730 2016-10-13T19:05:27  <MarcoFalke> #link https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8916
 731 2016-10-13T19:05:28  <wumpus> this leaves #8499
 732 2016-10-13T19:05:41  <BlueMatt> oh, sorry, 8916 is backports, meant 8499
 733 2016-10-13T19:05:47  <sipa> close.
 734 2016-10-13T19:05:48  <btcdrak> was 8393 backported yet?
 735 2016-10-13T19:06:12  <wumpus> 0.13.0 wallet bug about importaddress and scriptpubkeys <- issue id?
 736 2016-10-13T19:06:40  <wumpus> btcdrak: yes, that one is part of #8916
 737 2016-10-13T19:06:43  <sipa> jl2012 has been writing a lot of tests for 8499, as there are a lot of edge cases. i believe they're all identified and fixable noe
 738 2016-10-13T19:06:48  <BlueMatt> ok, so i guess hopefully by next meeting (or late this week) the final few commits on #8499 should be ready for review and we can finalize then?
 739 2016-10-13T19:06:49  <sipa> wumpus: will file one soon
 740 2016-10-13T19:07:44  <wumpus> so there's another blocker for 0.13.1? ok
 741 2016-10-13T19:07:57  <sipa> it's part of 8499
 742 2016-10-13T19:08:09  <sipa> will be fixed simulteneously
 743 2016-10-13T19:08:24  <jtimon> wumpus: bip9 parameters?
 744 2016-10-13T19:08:58  <gmaxwell> BIP9 recommends it be set roughly a month after software release. I don't currently see a reason to deviate from that.
 745 2016-10-13T19:09:01  <wumpus> jtimon: that's a topic suggestion I suppose?
 746 2016-10-13T19:09:28  <gmaxwell> There should be some list discussion. I have been one on oneing with large users of Bitcoin for the last couple weeks.
 747 2016-10-13T19:09:29  <jtimon> gmaxwell: ack
 748 2016-10-13T19:09:36  <instagibbs> So would the idea be to set it only at final release and not RC?
 749 2016-10-13T19:09:56  <gmaxwell> instagibbs: I think we would set it at RC and take a guess.
 750 2016-10-13T19:09:56  <sipa> it should be set for RC
 751 2016-10-13T19:10:06  <sipa> but if a new RC is needed, we can jncrement
 752 2016-10-13T19:10:10  <instagibbs> Ok.
 753 2016-10-13T19:10:36  <gmaxwell> it doesn't have to be precise. The strong invariaent is that the start date should be _after_ the release. :)
 754 2016-10-13T19:10:43  <michagogo> Worst case, if there are a lot of RCs that can be adjusted before the last one
 755 2016-10-13T19:10:48  <wumpus> there can't be changes between the last RC and final
 756 2016-10-13T19:10:53  <MarcoFalke> Huh? If we just increment it may cause a consensus bug?
 757 2016-10-13T19:10:55  <wumpus> so it must be set for every RC too, I'm afraid
 758 2016-10-13T19:10:56  <gmaxwell> keeping in mind that it'll take minimum of 4 weeks to activate post start.
 759 2016-10-13T19:11:03  <MarcoFalke> I mean nodes don't agree
 760 2016-10-13T19:11:04  <sipa> MarcoFalke: assuming miners run RCs
 761 2016-10-13T19:11:07  <michagogo> But the last RC is generally within a week or so of final release
 762 2016-10-13T19:11:12  <jtimon> MarcoFalke: people should not use rc apart from testing
 763 2016-10-13T19:11:13  <michagogo> (Or, the other way around...)
 764 2016-10-13T19:11:16  <wumpus> michagogo: yes
 765 2016-10-13T19:11:21  <sipa> indeed
 766 2016-10-13T19:11:21  <MarcoFalke> fine
 767 2016-10-13T19:11:34  <sipa> when do we exoect 0.13.1rc1?
 768 2016-10-13T19:11:37  <gmaxwell> so I would recommend taking a best guess and changing it if release ends up past that date.
 769 2016-10-13T19:11:38  <wumpus> #topic BIP9 parameters
 770 2016-10-13T19:11:52  <cfields> whoops. Late, but made it.
 771 2016-10-13T19:11:54  <BlueMatt> lets avoid setting it differently in different rcs
 772 2016-10-13T19:11:58  <sdaftuar> i don't think we can just change bip9 params during the rc process
 773 2016-10-13T19:12:03  <sdaftuar> that's a consensus change
 774 2016-10-13T19:12:11  <sdaftuar> we almost screwed this up in 0.13.0
 775 2016-10-13T19:12:12  <wumpus> sipa: all depends on #8499 + the bug fix for 0.13.1
 776 2016-10-13T19:12:34  <wumpus> I'd do 0.13.1 today if it was not for those
 777 2016-10-13T19:12:36  <sipa> i'm sure we'll be ready next seek
 778 2016-10-13T19:12:50  <sipa> (i'd like to say tomorrow, but who knows)
 779 2016-10-13T19:12:58  <morcos> it seems not a bad idea to take a conservative estimate of the length of time the RC process will take, add a month to that and use the date.
 780 2016-10-13T19:13:00  <BlueMatt> proposal: do not set activation parameters in rc1, set them in an rc when we believe we are ready (ie last rc + 1 week or so) and then let that sit for a week before final tag
 781 2016-10-13T19:13:10  <morcos> so use 2 months after the time you issue the first RC for instance?
 782 2016-10-13T19:13:13  <jtimon> morcos: that makes sense to me
 783 2016-10-13T19:13:15  <wumpus> I usually estimate a month for the RC phase, for major releases
 784 2016-10-13T19:13:16  <btcdrak> BlueMatt: +1
 785 2016-10-13T19:13:16  <instagibbs> I think picking and staying with it is best.
 786 2016-10-13T19:13:22  <morcos> or right, like matt said
 787 2016-10-13T19:13:23  <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: the RC's are supposted to be the same as the release.
 788 2016-10-13T19:13:25  <btcdrak> There is no way rc1 will pass anyway.
 789 2016-10-13T19:13:31  <sipa> btcdrak: unsure.
 790 2016-10-13T19:13:33  <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: then lets call the first rc beta :)
 791 2016-10-13T19:13:34  <morcos> btcdrak: ha ha
 792 2016-10-13T19:13:54  <gmaxwell> btcdrak: I think it's likely to do so, I've spent a lot more time on 0.13 branch than master lately.
 793 2016-10-13T19:14:02  <jtimon> BlueMatt's solution is fine as well
 794 2016-10-13T19:14:04  <wumpus> the last RC is supposed to be the same as the release, you could do a RC that is not *really* a release candidate I guess ...
 795 2016-10-13T19:14:18  <BlueMatt> ok, so new proposal: lets do a "beta" phase first, and then graduate to rc?
 796 2016-10-13T19:14:18  <michagogo> Prerc1?
 797 2016-10-13T19:14:22  <michagogo> rc0?
 798 2016-10-13T19:14:23  <btcdrak> 0.13.1pre
 799 2016-10-13T19:14:42  <jtimon> btcdrak: if we know rc1 won't pass how come we make it an rc?
 800 2016-10-13T19:14:52  <gmaxwell> I think we're over thinking it. The purpose of the starting time was simply to avoid the case where there was a risk that a feature got activated before any released version of the implementation for it existed at all-- because we found that miners were running master/candidates.
 801 2016-10-13T19:14:55  <wumpus> I guess we can use beta now that bitcoin core itself is no longer beta
 802 2016-10-13T19:15:00  <michagogo> jtimon: its more like, if it passes, something's "wrong"
 803 2016-10-13T19:15:10  <jtimon> michagogo: not following
 804 2016-10-13T19:15:12  <wumpus> thoug hI"d prefer just calling it rc, all tooling is setup for that
 805 2016-10-13T19:15:14  <michagogo> Like when your code compiles without errors the first time
 806 2016-10-13T19:15:15  <sipa> i don't like this. just pick a date reasonably far in the future and do rc1
 807 2016-10-13T19:15:26  <BlueMatt> so set parameters to 1.5 months for rc1? or 2?
 808 2016-10-13T19:15:27  <gmaxwell> Considering that there is a _minimum_ 4032 block interval from startdate to activation, there is a LOT of safty margin here.
 809 2016-10-13T19:15:37  <wumpus> sipa: +1
 810 2016-10-13T19:15:45  <wumpus> just estimate 2 months for the RC process
 811 2016-10-13T19:15:46  <cfields> sipa: agreed. Otherwise there's no way we'll be able to explain the semantics.
 812 2016-10-13T19:15:48  <wumpus> that should be ample enough
 813 2016-10-13T19:15:48  <BlueMatt> ok, I'm ok with something like 2 months from rc1
 814 2016-10-13T19:15:55  <btcdrak> most releases take 3 or 4 rcs, so if we set the date for 5 weeks on rc1 that would cover it I am sure.
 815 2016-10-13T19:15:58  <morcos> or is wumpus saying 3 months
 816 2016-10-13T19:16:07  <jtimon> michagogo: you mean we expect to have more than one? sure, but we shouldn't make it rc if there's known bugs or required changes is my point
 817 2016-10-13T19:16:09  <BlueMatt> ehh, I'd rather be conservative btcdrak
 818 2016-10-13T19:16:12  <wumpus> no, two months is fine
 819 2016-10-13T19:16:15  <morcos> 2 months for process, one for it to be released
 820 2016-10-13T19:16:17  <BlueMatt> i mean I'm ok with 1.5 months, too
 821 2016-10-13T19:16:17  <achow101> I think two months after rc1 is fine
 822 2016-10-13T19:16:27  <michagogo> jtimon: well, obviously the goal is for rc1 to = final
 823 2016-10-13T19:16:28  <morcos> ok, i'm fine with either, less than 2 is a bit rushing it
 824 2016-10-13T19:16:33  <btcdrak> this is like an auction.
 825 2016-10-13T19:16:40  <gmaxwell> There are many people who _urgently_ want segwit activated yesturday.
 826 2016-10-13T19:16:40  <jtimon> michagogo: undesrtood
 827 2016-10-13T19:16:42  <wumpus> usually I estimate 1 month for rc1->final, but this maybe be more involved than usual, dunno
 828 2016-10-13T19:16:46  <michagogo> Just like when you write code the goal is for it to compile perfectly the first time :P
 829 2016-10-13T19:16:56  <BlueMatt> wumpus: or less, hopefully
 830 2016-10-13T19:17:05  <BlueMatt> :p
 831 2016-10-13T19:17:07  <sipa> i think this rc will be much shorter
 832 2016-10-13T19:17:14  <wumpus> BlueMatt: well this is a minor release, so it *should* be shorter
 833 2016-10-13T19:17:17  <gmaxwell> I think it would be fine to set start date 1 month after final. Even then if RCs take two months we still will not be at risk of activation before a software release.
 834 2016-10-13T19:17:18  <btcdrak> well we could just commit to sleepless nights to make release happen on time :-p
 835 2016-10-13T19:17:30  <sdaftuar> gmaxwell: the downside to rushing this out is that there's less time for everyone to test with the updated policy changes on testnet
 836 2016-10-13T19:17:32  <gmaxwell> er 1 month after RC1 not final.
 837 2016-10-13T19:17:44  <gmaxwell> sdaftuar: most of them are no-ops on testnet.
 838 2016-10-13T19:17:55  <sdaftuar> gmaxwell: how so?
 839 2016-10-13T19:17:58  <gmaxwell> though I have been running with the patches applied and testnet set to enforce policy.
 840 2016-10-13T19:18:06  <gmaxwell> sdaftuar: testnet doesn't enforce standardness rules.
 841 2016-10-13T19:18:08  *** BashCo has quit IRC
 842 2016-10-13T19:18:13  <BlueMatt> i mean can we get testnet miners to do compact-enforcement today?
 843 2016-10-13T19:18:13  <sdaftuar> yes it does, for the script checks
 844 2016-10-13T19:18:17  <BlueMatt> that should be most of it?
 845 2016-10-13T19:18:35  <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: Lightsword please do that ^
 846 2016-10-13T19:18:38  <btcdrak> well remember there are non Core nodes mining on testnet
 847 2016-10-13T19:18:43  <sdaftuar> gmaxwell: am i missing something?
 848 2016-10-13T19:19:00  <btcdrak> I think lightsword's miner must be off, none of roasbeef's txs are getting mined.
 849 2016-10-13T19:19:06  <gmaxwell> sdaftuar: no, though not all the new policy is scriptchecks.
 850 2016-10-13T19:19:23  <gmaxwell> In any case, I don't think we should decide for sure here, we should make a list post.
 851 2016-10-13T19:19:23  <cfields> btcdrak: I'll be firing mine up in the next day or two
 852 2016-10-13T19:19:38  <sdaftuar> gmaxwell: sure not all, but the most significant ones IMO
 853 2016-10-13T19:19:41  <jtimon> prosed topic, maybe not for today: testnet4
 854 2016-10-13T19:19:50  <btcdrak> There are 4k unconfirmed "spam" txs https://testnet.smartbit.com.au/
 855 2016-10-13T19:20:09  <gmaxwell> But I think we should be suggesting 1month post rc1 as the starting time, when we do. Unless something specific comes up that suggests otherwise.
 856 2016-10-13T19:20:13  <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: agreed, for now lets recommend 1.25 months from rc1 release on the list, and get some testnet miners spun up mining #8499 today so that we're less worried about sdaftuar's objection?
 857 2016-10-13T19:20:35  <gmaxwell> Keep in mind, in prior softforks the starting time was infinitely far in the past. And BIP9 made its way through 95% of its development with no starting time.
 858 2016-10-13T19:20:42  <michagogo> BlueMatt: perhaps 50 days for roundness
 859 2016-10-13T19:20:44  <michagogo> Or 55
 860 2016-10-13T19:20:56  <sipa> nov 15.
 861 2016-10-13T19:21:10  <michagogo> That's good too
 862 2016-10-13T19:21:16  <btcdrak> great.
 863 2016-10-13T19:21:23  <michagogo> (A birthday gift for my brother, perhaps?)
 864 2016-10-13T19:21:23  <gmaxwell> it was added because for one prior sf we ended up with >30% hashpower weeks before release... and that was for a SF with no quieting period... so it had a real risk of activating basically before a release.
 865 2016-10-13T19:22:07  <wumpus> I doubt that's a risk for segwit
 866 2016-10-13T19:22:16  <gmaxwell> Agreed.
 867 2016-10-13T19:22:19  <jtimon> gmaxwell: I think it's useful beyond that
 868 2016-10-13T19:22:41  <btcdrak> yes, the fact BIP9 requires 4-6 weeks to kick in realistically, makes it less of an issue
 869 2016-10-13T19:23:02  <sipa> nov 15 is close to a retarget
 870 2016-10-13T19:23:06  <gmaxwell> 4-8 weeks with 6 weeks being the average if all miners immediately upgrade.
 871 2016-10-13T19:23:08  <btcdrak> ok so Nov 15th it is?
 872 2016-10-13T19:23:11  <sipa> maybe we want to pick a date just before a retarget
 873 2016-10-13T19:23:35  <achow101> nov 15th sounds good (at 00:00 AM?)
 874 2016-10-13T19:23:36  <btcdrak> sipa: yes and remember Bitfury are turning on a _lot_ of hash rate going forward
 875 2016-10-13T19:23:38  <gmaxwell> btcdrak: probably shouldn't be just setting it here, but just have a feel for what we think is reasonable.
 876 2016-10-13T19:23:54  * jtimon wishes we had chosen hieght instead of time not to wonder what will be close to retarget
 877 2016-10-13T19:24:11  <sipa> yes, let's propose on the ML
 878 2016-10-13T19:24:16  <BlueMatt> ok, seems like we have rough consensus on a month after rc1 is probably a reasonable recommendation, so lets propose to the ml
 879 2016-10-13T19:24:23  <instagibbs> Ack
 880 2016-10-13T19:24:50  <wumpus> yes
 881 2016-10-13T19:24:59  <gmaxwell> sipa: do you want to do the list thing, or should I or?
 882 2016-10-13T19:25:05  <sipa> i will
 883 2016-10-13T19:25:08  <jtimon> ack on following up on the mailing list, it seems nobody is unhappy about either rc1 + 1 month nor rc2 + 2 month
 884 2016-10-13T19:25:19  <wumpus> #action propose segwit activation parameters on the ML
 885 2016-10-13T19:25:20  <jtimon> nor 15 nov
 886 2016-10-13T19:25:29  <BlueMatt> ok, next topic?
 887 2016-10-13T19:25:49  <wumpus> #topic testnet4 (jtimon)
 888 2016-10-13T19:26:03  <BlueMatt> why?
 889 2016-10-13T19:26:08  <achow101> ^
 890 2016-10-13T19:26:12  <wumpus> @jtimon
 891 2016-10-13T19:26:16  <jtimon> well, I would prefer to discuss verifyBlock vs processBlock actually
 892 2016-10-13T19:26:33  <wumpus> lol you proposed the topic
 893 2016-10-13T19:26:42  <jtimon> but some people complained about testnet being unreliable
 894 2016-10-13T19:27:00  <BlueMatt> isnt that a number of miners thing?
 895 2016-10-13T19:27:04  <wumpus> do you have a concrete proposal to fix that?
 896 2016-10-13T19:27:08  <gmaxwell> That has little to do with 'testnet4'  I think. It just is that testnet is not consistently mined.
 897 2016-10-13T19:27:08  <sipa> i don't know that resetting would help
 898 2016-10-13T19:27:11  <jtimon> my main interest would be to remove the special case for testnet on pow
 899 2016-10-13T19:27:26  <BlueMatt> that would make it more unreliable?
 900 2016-10-13T19:27:31  <jtimon> don't drop diff to 1, maybe just add a max difficulty or something simpler
 901 2016-10-13T19:27:55  <jtimon> BlueMatt: I doubts so
 902 2016-10-13T19:28:09  <BlueMatt> i mean we added that rule because testnet was unreliable
 903 2016-10-13T19:28:22  <jtimon> BlueMatt: and did it solved it?
 904 2016-10-13T19:28:25  <BlueMatt> though i have no intuition for properly setting a max testnet diff that is reasonable
 905 2016-10-13T19:28:33  <BlueMatt> jtimon: it made it an order of magnitude (or two) better
 906 2016-10-13T19:28:38  <wumpus> yes, without it it is even worse
 907 2016-10-13T19:28:44  <jtimon> BlueMatt: fair enough
 908 2016-10-13T19:28:44  <btcdrak> max diff would be a disaster
 909 2016-10-13T19:28:51  <jtimon> maybe next topic?
 910 2016-10-13T19:28:55  <sipa> we could live without the permanent reset bug, though
 911 2016-10-13T19:29:01  <wumpus> any other topics?
 912 2016-10-13T19:29:59  <wumpus> *crickets*
 913 2016-10-13T19:30:37  <achow101> the prefinal alert that was supposed to happen but didn't?
 914 2016-10-13T19:30:41  <wumpus> well, that concludes the meeting early I guess. Let's make sure we can have a 0.13.1rc1 by next week
 915 2016-10-13T19:30:42  <jtimon> libconsensus: verifyBlock vs processBlock (ie the latter takes care of reorgs, updates the utxo, etc)
 916 2016-10-13T19:30:50  <BlueMatt> achow101: suggested prefinal alert
 917 2016-10-13T19:31:09  <gmaxwell> jtimon: a lot of people would like us to have a signed testnet using the pluggable pow stuff that is in elements, so that it would have perfectly predictable blocks and perfectly predictable reorgs.
 918 2016-10-13T19:31:37  <gmaxwell> achow101: we need to write explination text for bitcoin.org and I haven't had time to do it and no one else has stepped up.
 919 2016-10-13T19:31:44  <gmaxwell> I have an alert ready to go.
 920 2016-10-13T19:31:49  <jtimon> gmaxwell: I would be more than happy to put that in core if it's desirable, thanks for letting me know
 921 2016-10-13T19:31:50  <wumpus> #topic prefinal alert
 922 2016-10-13T19:31:52  <achow101> copy-paste from email
 923 2016-10-13T19:32:25  <gmaxwell> Needs to have an explination of the alert system, why it's gone now. And a description of the future steps that we discussed here.
 924 2016-10-13T19:33:04  <gmaxwell> achow101: do you want to try drafting something? I would be happy to review/edit.
 925 2016-10-13T19:33:15  <achow101> sure, I can try writing it
 926 2016-10-13T19:33:58  <gmaxwell> sounds good.
 927 2016-10-13T19:34:21  <wumpus> #action achow101 post about alert system for bitcoin.org
 928 2016-10-13T19:34:44  <wumpus> thanks
 929 2016-10-13T19:34:56  <btcdrak> Just a random information topic, there is a segwit dev guide for downstream published here https://bitcoincore.org/en/segwit_wallet_dev/
 930 2016-10-13T19:34:57  <gmaxwell> jtimon: if we're going to do any 'new testnet thing' we should figure out how to extract the good test cases from the existing testnet. E.g. instrumenting for code coverage and syncing testnet while noting which transactions increased coverage.
 931 2016-10-13T19:35:03  *** moli has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 932 2016-10-13T19:35:10  <wumpus> btcdrak: awesome!
 933 2016-10-13T19:35:31  <wumpus> #link segwit dev guide for downstream https://bitcoincore.org/en/segwit_wallet_dev/
 934 2016-10-13T19:35:57  <gmaxwell> we have other upcoming doc works. We should have a segwit deployment guide-- covering things like explaining how to setup perimiter nodes to shield unupgraded custom stuff-- ready at the start of the segwit queting period.
 935 2016-10-13T19:36:11  <achow101> apparently no one but me knew that dev guide even existed...
 936 2016-10-13T19:36:27  <gmaxwell> But we can get contributors outside of the regulars for this meeting, for the audience here advice on content would be good.
 937 2016-10-13T19:36:31  <morcos> it seems to me a better way to make testnet usable is to just pool some funding to have some small but non-trivial hashpower running it rather than implement more differences in behavior from mainnet
 938 2016-10-13T19:36:42  <wumpus> achow101: a lot of good information exists but the knowledge of that information is pretty sparse
 939 2016-10-13T19:36:53  <wumpus> achow101: has always been a problem in bitcoin :(
 940 2016-10-13T19:36:59  *** molz has quit IRC
 941 2016-10-13T19:37:04  <gmaxwell> morcos: the problem is that some clown pool will occasionally drop a petahash onto it an drive the difficulty up.
 942 2016-10-13T19:37:05  <jtimon> gmaxwell: is there any recommended tool for coverage in bitcoin core?
 943 2016-10-13T19:37:35  <wumpus> jtimon: valgrind?
 944 2016-10-13T19:37:44  <jcorgan> gmaxwell: i could likely help with some of the documentation work, if there is someone on the team to work with
 945 2016-10-13T19:37:56  <gmaxwell> jtimon: lcov works. But to get data inline like that some stunts involving gprof can be done.
 946 2016-10-13T19:38:26  <gmaxwell> You can ask the gprof stuff to dump the current data with a function call, IIRC.. so presumably one could instrument doing that after processing each transaction.
 947 2016-10-13T19:38:27  <jtimon> oh, I just recently starting using lcov, nice
 948 2016-10-13T19:39:25  <gmaxwell> in any case, there are tests in testnet that do not exist in any unit test. It would be good to find most of them and be able to start out a new testnet where the first few hundred blocks excercise all of them.
 949 2016-10-13T19:39:26  <Chris_Stewart_5> gmaxwell: Content on what docs? Segwit docs?
 950 2016-10-13T19:39:34  <wumpus> after each block may be enough granularity
 951 2016-10-13T19:40:07  *** BashCo has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 952 2016-10-13T19:40:12  <gmaxwell> Chris_Stewart_5: on what materials should be covered in a deployment guide. For non-miners the only really important thing that comes to mind to me is instructions on setting up peremiter nodes.
 953 2016-10-13T19:40:31  <Chris_Stewart_5> Gotcha.
 954 2016-10-13T19:40:40  <gmaxwell> but no doubt there are other things.
 955 2016-10-13T19:40:51  <sdaftuar> all the policy changes!
 956 2016-10-13T19:41:05  <Chris_Stewart_5> jtimon: I think cfields has some sort of website that shows lcov coverage
 957 2016-10-13T19:41:12  <gmaxwell> sdaftuar: fair enough, though I expect those to be 99% invisible, but good to cover them more.
 958 2016-10-13T19:41:41  <cfields> Chris_Stewart_5: that was a one-time thing for segwit. Just need to fix up the makefile stuff so it can be auto-generated again
 959 2016-10-13T19:43:00  <wumpus> gah, looks like my backport of #8393 in #8916 is failing the RPC tests
 960 2016-10-13T19:43:13  <sdaftuar> wumpus: i'm running locally... compact blocks again
 961 2016-10-13T19:43:35  <sdaftuar> wumpus: i can reproduce at least
 962 2016-10-13T19:43:39  <wumpus> okay thanks!
 963 2016-10-13T19:43:39  <jtimon> Chris_Stewart_5: gmaxwell: awesome, maybe we should consider putting some lcov stuff as tooling? something like in https://github.com/jgriffiths/libwally-core#generating-a-coverage-report ? stupid people like me appreciate these things...
 964 2016-10-13T19:44:38  <jtimon> maybe I should start with that before a nexttestnet, anyway, I'll come back to you and cfields, we're mixing topics
 965 2016-10-13T19:44:52  <wumpus> jtimon: recently created a bitcoin-maintainer-tools repo https://github.com/laanwj/bitcoin-maintainer-tools, would make sense to add to that
 966 2016-10-13T19:45:24  <Chris_Stewart_5> jtimon: I think it is an easy way to direct new developers where it might be easiest to contribute to, as they can easily see where we are lacking tests
 967 2016-10-13T19:45:30  <cfields> jtimon: we have an --enable-lcov (or something like that). But it's broken atm.
 968 2016-10-13T19:46:21  <jtimon> awesome, so there's work to be done here but there's a base, thank you guys
 969 2016-10-13T19:46:26  <cfields> just need to get it fixed up again, shouldn't be too tough.
 970 2016-10-13T19:46:36  <wumpus> we should probably create an issue for that
 971 2016-10-13T19:46:50  <jtimon> wumpus: will check that out, does it contain lcov too? maybe we should consid
 972 2016-10-13T19:46:58  <gmaxwell> I haven't been too generally impressed with the utility of lcov on the bitcoin core codebase-- better than nothing I guess, but the branch coverage is full of BS unreachable branches due allocations in templaized container objects.
 973 2016-10-13T19:47:07  <jtimon> s//wumpus: will check that out
 974 2016-10-13T19:47:10  <wumpus> jtimon: no, it currently contains only a tool for doing per-function binary comparison of builds
 975 2016-10-13T19:47:52  <wumpus> jtimon: but I'm generally for sharing our tools more
 976 2016-10-13T19:48:15  <jtimon> gmaxwell: yeah, for a new testchain, take into account that we're still using globals and some hardcoding
 977 2016-10-13T19:48:49  <wumpus> jtimon: I have a lot of other ones, but need to clean up and disentangle them from other local stuff first before I can publish them
 978 2016-10-13T19:49:19  <wumpus> (for example for creating release notes)
 979 2016-10-13T19:49:30  <jtimon> things like https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8855 should help with new testchains
 980 2016-10-13T19:50:18  <gmaxwell> so... another topic, probably mostly for a future meeting.. sybil attacks.
 981 2016-10-13T19:50:20  <jtimon> wumpus: nice, we can incorporate those upstream little by little
 982 2016-10-13T19:50:21  <wumpus> anyhow let's end the meeting, seems we're not really on a topic anymore
 983 2016-10-13T19:50:34  <gmaxwell> I am now seeing 60+ connections within seconds of starting a node..
 984 2016-10-13T19:50:36  <wumpus> jtimon: I really prefer having meta-tools in a separate repo
 985 2016-10-13T19:51:17  <wumpus> jtimon: as they're not really on the same release cycle, and go through lots of changes that don't really need to go through the bitcoin core review process
 986 2016-10-13T19:51:22  <jtimon> wumpus: well I don't have a strong opinion, you can always document where those tools are somewhere
 987 2016-10-13T19:51:29  <wumpus> yes
 988 2016-10-13T19:51:36  <wumpus> #topic sybil attacks
 989 2016-10-13T19:51:42  <gmaxwell> Does anyone here have any back channels into amazon operations? I'd like to know why they are unresponsive to abuse conmplaints regarding this user.
 990 2016-10-13T19:52:18  *** sybil01 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 991 2016-10-13T19:52:44  <gmaxwell> So background: someone is mass connecting many times in parallel to all reachable ondes, pretending, poorly, to be a mix of different spv clients.
 992 2016-10-13T19:52:45  <wumpus> reminds me I should still file a complaint for that
 993 2016-10-13T19:53:01  <jtimon> suggested topic: libconsensus: verifyBlock vs processBlock (ie the latter takes care of reorgs, updates the utxo, etc)
 994 2016-10-13T19:53:18  <wumpus> sybil01: oh no :)
 995 2016-10-13T19:53:33  <gmaxwell> Because of the connection management stuff implemented a few versions ago, it doesn't disrupt the network much (these peers can get evicted). But I presume their motivation is to undermine user's privacy through observation.
 996 2016-10-13T19:54:04  <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: i mean if we fix the privacy leak that makes it useful to do this, maybe they'll go away :)
 997 2016-10-13T19:54:23  <CodeShark> hi guys...traveling and can't catch entire meeting but will read thr scrollback :)
 998 2016-10-13T19:54:25  <wumpus> that must be the reason to do this, it would be an extremely ineffective DoS
 999 2016-10-13T19:54:29  <gmaxwell> Right now, connecting more times in parallel will leak more information and we can reduce that leackage further with already planned future relay improvements. ... which I've only not finished due to focusing on testing segwit and whatnot.
1000 2016-10-13T19:54:47  <gmaxwell> wumpus: it would be a potent DOS prior to 0.12-ish.
1001 2016-10-13T19:55:13  <gmaxwell> but yes, I presume they'll stop if we further reduce the privacy leaks. So thats the obvious thing to do.
1002 2016-10-13T19:55:18  <wumpus> gmaxwell: but it seems they open a fixed number of connections per node. A DoS would exhaust slots
1003 2016-10-13T19:55:27  <btcdrak> can we ban multiple connection from the same IP? that would be a start against this particular AWS spy.
1004 2016-10-13T19:55:34  <gmaxwell> presumably they were doing this before, and prior improvements killed the leaks unless they connected multiple times which made them visible.
1005 2016-10-13T19:55:48  <sipa> btcdrak: meh, they'll move to routing through different ips
1006 2016-10-13T19:56:01  <gmaxwell> btcdrak: it would be pretty harmful to do that network wide as there are many instutions and even a country where all connections come from one ip.
1007 2016-10-13T19:56:03  <wumpus> theyalready use multiple IPs, though they also do multiple connections per IP form some reason
1008 2016-10-13T19:56:17  <gmaxwell> and they do already use multiple IPs. and they changed them after people started circulating banlists.
1009 2016-10-13T19:56:46  *** sybil01 has quit IRC
1010 2016-10-13T19:56:53  <BlueMatt> several folks now ban aws nodes wholesale, which sucks because aws nodes are useful due to DDoS protection built-in
1011 2016-10-13T19:56:58  <wumpus> but yes IPs are cheap anyway, as long as there's profit to be made from this they'll not go away. THough I personally ban multiple connects from a single IP on my nodes.
1012 2016-10-13T19:56:59  <BlueMatt> (including some of my nodes)
1013 2016-10-13T19:57:06  <gmaxwell> I'd like to avoid hardcoding netblock specific rules "one connection per IP from amazon IP space" and whatnot. :)
1014 2016-10-13T19:57:19  <gmaxwell> so in any case, reducing the leakage is always a good move and we should do that.
1015 2016-10-13T19:57:23  <BlueMatt> yup
1016 2016-10-13T19:57:36  <sipa> i think we can make the relay delays use deterministic randomness based on netgroup, so nodes in the same range will see the same thing
1017 2016-10-13T19:57:57  <sipa> and many more ideas
1018 2016-10-13T19:58:02  <cfields> gmaxwell: for one in every X connections, we could proxy and route messages together for peer-pairs. Then they'd poison their own stats :p
1019 2016-10-13T19:58:02  <sipa> probably not for this meeting
1020 2016-10-13T19:58:23  <gmaxwell> cfields: That won't work for reasons I'd rather not say in public, unfortunately.
1021 2016-10-13T19:58:28  <btcdrak> 1 min 30 seconds to go
1022 2016-10-13T19:58:46  <wumpus> cfields: they don't actually ever send anything
1023 2016-10-13T19:58:51  <gmaxwell> well it would help. but not do quite what you think.. still could be useful.. many fun things to discuss.
1024 2016-10-13T19:59:24  <wumpus> cfields: they just negotiate the connection, answer pings, and listen. Though poisining the info sounds like fun.
1025 2016-10-13T20:00:01  <instagibbs> ding ding
1026 2016-10-13T20:00:01  <sipa> DANG
1027 2016-10-13T20:00:05  <btcdrak> dong
1028 2016-10-13T20:00:07  <wumpus> and yes, netblock specific rules are not an option, that'd be Hearnian
1029 2016-10-13T20:00:10  <wumpus> #endmeeting
1030 2016-10-13T20:00:10  <lightningbot> Meeting ended Thu Oct 13 20:00:10 2016 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
1031 2016-10-13T20:00:10  <lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2016/bitcoin-core-dev.2016-10-13-19.04.html
1032 2016-10-13T20:00:10  <lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2016/bitcoin-core-dev.2016-10-13-19.04.txt
1033 2016-10-13T20:00:10  <lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2016/bitcoin-core-dev.2016-10-13-19.04.log.html
1034 2016-10-13T20:00:44  <gmaxwell> wumpus: it would potentially make sense to ship with a IP -> ASN map to make the same-netgroup logic more intelligent... though it would be a couple megabytes of data to ship, unfortunately.
1035 2016-10-13T20:01:12  * midnightmagic would love to cooperate to poison network spy data.
1036 2016-10-13T20:01:17  <gmaxwell> but I don't know that doing anything that depends on IPs as a limit resource is worth any time.
1037 2016-10-13T20:01:24  <musalbas> blocking multiple connections per IP would also have the added benefit of helping to prevent Eclipse attacks (per http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/263.pdf)
1038 2016-10-13T20:01:37  <gmaxwell> musalbas: no, it wouldn't.
1039 2016-10-13T20:02:07  <wumpus> musalbas: IPv4's are cheap, any attack that runs profit of any kind can use tons of them
1040 2016-10-13T20:02:13  <musalbas> true
1041 2016-10-13T20:02:18  <wumpus> ... not to speak about IPv6's :)
1042 2016-10-13T20:02:20  <gmaxwell> musalbas: multiple inbound connections per IP cannot really be used to perform eclipse attacks in bitcoin due to how the connection management works.
1043 2016-10-13T20:02:38  <gmaxwell> musalbas: if we run out of connections, we will start kicking off peers, and those dupes are among the first to go.
1044 2016-10-13T20:02:40  *** cryptapus has quit IRC
1045 2016-10-13T20:04:03  <instagibbs> due to metrics in AttemptToEvictConnection?
1046 2016-10-13T20:04:18  <musalbas> yeah i recall some countermeasures being implemented
1047 2016-10-13T20:04:22  <gmaxwell> musalbas: the logic is that when we fill and a new one comes in, we make a decision to potentially evict a connection (including the new one). The decision first protects a subset of peers based on them being "good" according to varrious different criteria, then it kicks the shortest uptime peer from the netgroup with the most inbound connections.
1048 2016-10-13T20:04:37  <instagibbs> if they're not serving data, and in same netgroup, only a small number may be protected from eviction
1049 2016-10-13T20:04:41  <musalbas> interesting
1050 2016-10-13T20:04:43  <wumpus> gmaxwell: yes IP to ASN map would be an idea
1051 2016-10-13T20:05:15  <instagibbs> musalbas, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/net.cpp#L873
1052 2016-10-13T20:06:53  <gmaxwell> the way this particular attacker works tends to exploit the longest uptime protection, unfortunately. Though we could easily strenghten that some.
1053 2016-10-13T20:07:15  <gmaxwell> I've hesitated adding narrow improvements that they could easily avoid, however.
1054 2016-10-13T20:07:39  <musalbas> out of curiosity are there any countermeasures to defend against the case where an attacker controls the user's network, forces them to only connect to their nodes and kills connections from the outside world, and starts giving them "secret" blocks?
1055 2016-10-13T20:07:56  <gmaxwell> musalbas: yes, proof of work.
1056 2016-10-13T20:08:10  <wumpus> gmaxwell: wonder if it woudl be possible to compress that map in a smart way, maybe approximate it, in a way that would be better than the current same-netgroup logic but fairly compact
1057 2016-10-13T20:08:25  <musalbas> gmaxwell, yes but assuming the adversary is well resourced but has less than 51% of hashing power they can still give a user secret blocks.
1058 2016-10-13T20:08:36  <gmaxwell> and the software knows about the identity of the 'real' chain, to enough extent that making a whole fake world is computationally hard, even if the node is interceptect from start.
1059 2016-10-13T20:09:11  <gmaxwell> musalbas: yup. There is no protection against that.  One of the motiviations behind the proposed authenticated transport is so that nodes could add authenticated peers.
1060 2016-10-13T20:09:13  <musalbas> gmaxwell, but the difference would be that the blocks would be a lot less frequence *unless they are pre-computed before the attack* - which could be a way to detect
1061 2016-10-13T20:09:25  <musalbas> frequent*
1062 2016-10-13T20:09:54  <musalbas> gmaxwell, i see
1063 2016-10-13T20:10:19  <BlueMatt> musalbas: even if the attacker has 50% of hashrate its gonna generate blocks slower than the "real" network
1064 2016-10-13T20:10:19  <BlueMatt> (though, at that point, the attacker potentially is the "real" network)
1065 2016-10-13T20:11:01  <musalbas> BlueMatt, unless the attacker knows the block height that the client is on before connecting to the network, and pre-computes a bunch of blocks with certain timestamps a long time before the attack occurs
1066 2016-10-13T20:11:12  <gmaxwell> musalbas: the slower criteria doesn't generally work that well, if you work out the math for an acceptably fp rate, the attacker has to be awfully slow for it to reliably trigger there.
1067 2016-10-13T20:11:44  <musalbas> i see
1068 2016-10-13T20:11:59  <BlueMatt> musalbas: i mean as long as the chain's hashpower isnt going up too fast, the client can tell that its last block was X days ago, and too few blocks were generated for that time
1069 2016-10-13T20:12:20  <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: luckily the math works out better over longer time horizons, like the attack musalbas is referencing :)
1070 2016-10-13T20:12:25  <musalbas> anyways, if the eclipse attack problem is solved for offline-networks, it could have some good applications for transparency overlays in threat models where the attacker owns the network
1071 2016-10-13T20:12:50  <BlueMatt> indeed, though you we also already have good tor support for this reason
1072 2016-10-13T20:13:21  <gmaxwell> musalbas: if it were actually solvable in a strong sense bitcoin wouldn't need mining.
1073 2016-10-13T20:14:21  <musalbas> gmaxwell, there are papers that suggest that bitcoin doesn't need mining if you collapse Bitcoin into Certificate Transparency-like system, but that assumes a level of trust in a set of distributed actors
1074 2016-10-13T20:15:00  <musalbas> however, if you can have trustless CT without blockchain then ... :)
1075 2016-10-13T20:15:33  <midnightmagic> -- then altcoin scams.
1076 2016-10-13T20:16:01  <musalbas> BlueMatt, yeah Tor could be good to prevent that, but it's not foolproof at you're transferring your trust to a set of distributed Tor directory authorities
1077 2016-10-13T20:16:53  <gmaxwell> musalbas: ultimately if you are not trusting a specified set, then what is to say that your isolating attacker _isn't_ the valid network.
1078 2016-10-13T20:17:03  <gmaxwell> So I think the problem you hope to solve is not well defined.
1079 2016-10-13T20:17:38  <gmaxwell> But having unforgable adjcencies with parties you know would protect from isolation attacks in practice, and requires no centeralized ttp.
1080 2016-10-13T20:20:18  <musalbas> gmaxwell, I would be curious to hear your opinion in the creator of Certificate Transparency's criticisms of Bitcoin, who argues that Bitcoin is not decentralized unless 51% of the world's processing power is doing Bitcoin hashing, and therefore you have to trust the people who set the checkpoints in the Bitcoin source code otherwise you can just rewrite the chain.
1081 2016-10-13T20:20:47  <instagibbs> hmm, test before evict didn't go anywhere. Wonder if that can get worked on.
1082 2016-10-13T20:20:55  <instagibbs> now that feeler is in
1083 2016-10-13T20:20:58  <musalbas> (http://www.links.org/files/decentralised-currencies.pdf)
1084 2016-10-13T20:21:01  <gmaxwell> musalbas: he's full of shit.
1085 2016-10-13T20:21:02  <gmaxwell> :)
1086 2016-10-13T20:21:09  <wumpus> the checkpoints are going to go
1087 2016-10-13T20:21:20  <gmaxwell> which I helpfully told him as soon as he wrote that, but alas, he didn't respond.
1088 2016-10-13T20:21:25  <gmaxwell> lemme give you my response.
1089 2016-10-13T20:22:40  <musalbas> yeah I agree - but I'm trying to making him come around by currently writing a paper for a way to make CT trustless but while keeping it scalable by enhancing it using the blockchain as a medium for partial transparency
1090 2016-10-13T20:23:06  <wumpus> only in the early blocks (when difficulty is very low) it'd be realistically possible to feed a client the wrong chain, and it may waste some time with that, and checkpoints are reasonably useful for avoiding that... but once it catches up it will notice anyhow that that's not the most-work chain
1091 2016-10-13T20:23:39  <gmaxwell> musalbas: http://0bin.net/paste/nyvikpO+-Q+R5ZsW#MmdECr9dkrXeLO0HKMp5LVvtgH377V-28cN9r1LSBGS  keep in mind, I wrote that in 2011... I would probably say some different things now.
1092 2016-10-13T20:24:07  <musalbas> i'll read
1093 2016-10-13T20:25:46  <musalbas> (but bbl for now as i have to travel home)
1094 2016-10-13T20:26:30  <gmaxwell> as wumpus mentions, we're now going to remove checkpoints soon, they don't do anything much anymore. There are a couple DOS attacks that they help with, getting rid of them is important to avoid misunderstandings like Ben's.
1095 2016-10-13T20:27:44  <gmaxwell> and FWIW, the last checkpoint was set at block 295000 ... over two years ago.
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1108 2016-10-13T21:40:37  <achow101> gmaxwell: (and whoever can publish alerts, wumpus?) what do you think: https://github.com/achow101/bitcoin.org/blob/prefinal-alert/_alerts/2016-10-14-alert-retirement.md
1109 2016-10-13T21:46:20  *** cryptapus is now known as cryptapus_afk
1110 2016-10-13T21:52:33  <wumpus> looking :)
1111 2016-10-13T21:54:21  <btcdrak> achow101: also one key means we have no idea how many people the key was shared with and who is in possession of the key.
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1113 2016-10-13T21:55:24  <btcdrak> and it seems like magicaltux also has the key and he was detained by police it seems reasonable that the key might be in many many people's possession by now
1114 2016-10-13T21:59:05  <wumpus> yes, we don't know who has the key at this point. It's a typical issue with only having one, shared, key. You don't know who was it that sent an alert, and you can't revert one person's key
1115 2016-10-13T22:00:44  <wumpus> "No Bitcoins are at risk and this warning may be safely ignored" yes, indeed. It's a no-op for most.
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1117 2016-10-13T22:01:59  <gmaxwell> I like the text overall!
1118 2016-10-13T22:02:03  <wumpus> in the case of bitcoin core we have the bitcoin core announcement list now: https://bitcoincore.org/en/list/announcements/join/
1119 2016-10-13T22:02:17  <wumpus> me too
1120 2016-10-13T22:03:12  <wumpus> seems good to me
1121 2016-10-13T22:03:24  <kanzure> achow101: i suggest linking to at least https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2016-September/013104.html
1122 2016-10-13T22:03:38  <kanzure> and possibly earlier discussion too
1123 2016-10-13T22:04:00  <gmaxwell> I think the schedule should be: (1) that page goes up, (2) an email goes to varrious lists, warning about the prefinal alert. Then a day later, the prefinal alert goes out. (I don't see a reason to wait longer than a day, anyone who doesn't see it in a day won't see it anytime soon-- and the only reason to announce it in advance is just in case someone has automation that triggers a shutdown on
1124 2016-10-13T22:04:07  <gmaxwell> any alert)
1125 2016-10-13T22:05:00  <kanzure> not sure about an earlier link, any hints anyone?
1126 2016-10-13T22:05:23  <kanzure> i suppose there was https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6260 (remove alert system)
1127 2016-10-13T22:12:02  <achow101> kanzure: yeah, I'll link the email, the discussion here from a while back, and that pr
1128 2016-10-13T22:12:33  <gmaxwell> the announcement should point out what versions its deactivated in.
1129 2016-10-13T22:12:55  <achow101> ok
1130 2016-10-13T22:13:20  <gmaxwell> because some people might want to update to a newer version but not all the way or something.
1131 2016-10-13T22:14:11  <gmaxwell> if we're close to a releaes it might make sense to delay sending the alert itself, as that might cause a few people to upgrade... would be kinda lame to have them upgrading to a version which is outdated a week later.
1132 2016-10-13T22:14:58  <wumpus> 0.10.3 added the option to disable alerts (-alerts=0)
1133 2016-10-13T22:15:14  <sipa> wow, so long already
1134 2016-10-13T22:15:39  <achow101> which releases should I mention?
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1136 2016-10-13T22:17:26  <wumpus> alerts are disabled by default on the 0.11 branch, however, there has been no release after doing that
1137 2016-10-13T22:17:59  <wumpus> 0.12 removed alerts completely
1138 2016-10-13T22:18:31  <wumpus> (don't know which .x yet, looking)
1139 2016-10-13T22:18:57  <achow101> I thought only 0.13 had alerts actually removed
1140 2016-10-13T22:21:11  <gmaxwell> for the purpose of that message, disabled is probably the right milestone. Doesn't really matter to the user if the code is there but dead.
1141 2016-10-13T22:21:39  <wumpus> achow101: yes, you are right, had the 0.13 branch checkout out in my 0.12 repo for some reason, it is only disabled
1142 2016-10-13T22:22:16  <wumpus> but as gmaxwell says disabled is enough
1143 2016-10-13T22:22:29  <achow101> so 0.10.3, 0.11.x, and 0.12.x allows disabling with -alerts=0
1144 2016-10-13T22:22:52  <gmaxwell> question is where was it disabled by default first?
1145 2016-10-13T22:23:02  <wumpus> 0.10.3 and 0.11.* has it enabled by default but allows disabling
1146 2016-10-13T22:23:15  <wumpus> yes
1147 2016-10-13T22:24:02  <wumpus> 0.12.1 has it disabled by default
1148 2016-10-13T22:24:04  <wumpus> 0.12.0 hasn't
1149 2016-10-13T22:24:10  <gmaxwell> seqeunce < spelling
1150 2016-10-13T22:24:56  <gmaxwell> As far as the final alert, I think we'd actually do it shortly prior to 0.14's RC phase?  so that we could hardcode it in to be given to older peers.
1151 2016-10-13T22:25:03  <achow101> Should I include other software that has removed alerts
1152 2016-10-13T22:26:17  <gmaxwell> What I would put is something stating that as far as we're aware all currently maintained implementations have removed alerts.
1153 2016-10-13T22:26:37  <wumpus> yes, 0.14.0 should hardcode the final alert
1154 2016-10-13T22:27:27  * luke-jr wonders if the final alert should mention the announce ML
1155 2016-10-13T22:27:40  <achow101> made changes, gtg
1156 2016-10-13T22:27:43  <wumpus> indeed - there may be some altcoins that have literally copied the alert key, but that's not releavant to this message
1157 2016-10-13T22:27:51  <achow101> i'll be back in ~1 hr
1158 2016-10-13T22:27:57  <wumpus> later achow101
1159 2016-10-13T22:28:46  <gmaxwell> wumpus: there were a few but IIRC I didn't find any that were non-dead... and I attempted to contact all the ones I found.
1160 2016-10-13T22:28:56  <gmaxwell> there were a LOT more that copied litecoin's key.
1161 2016-10-13T22:29:02  <gmaxwell> like hundreds of them
1162 2016-10-13T22:29:36  <petertodd> achow101: ACK
1163 2016-10-13T22:29:41  <wumpus> yes the non-dead altcoins I've looked at also have a different key, didn't compare against the litecoin one :)
1164 2016-10-13T22:31:34  <wumpus> but it sounds sensible to me, most altcoins descent from litecoin, or the 'PoS' coins after that, not bitcoin directly
1165 2016-10-13T22:33:50  <sipa> anyone tried a gothib search for the alert key?
1166 2016-10-13T22:33:53  <sipa> eh, github
1167 2016-10-13T22:33:56  <gmaxwell> yes
1168 2016-10-13T22:34:07  <sipa> how did i manage to get two typos in one word?
1169 2016-10-13T22:34:22  <wumpus> github search is pretty crappy, I'm amazed that worked :) I did  a google search though.
1170 2016-10-13T22:34:52  <gmaxwell> sipa: jsmf ,ods;ohm,rmt.
1171 2016-10-13T22:35:07  <gmaxwell> I didn't say it was useful, I said I tried it.
1172 2016-10-13T22:35:08  <gmaxwell> :)
1173 2016-10-13T22:35:17  <gmaxwell> the openhub code search thing was more useful.
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1175 2016-10-13T22:36:53  <wumpus> in any case they *too* are better off with the key being phased out,and the final alert being sent
1176 2016-10-13T22:37:30  <wumpus> it makes no sense for us to be able to send alerts on random altcoin networks
1177 2016-10-13T22:37:47  <gmaxwell> I think it makes lots of sense.
1178 2016-10-13T22:37:49  <gmaxwell> muhahah.
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1180 2016-10-13T22:38:15  <wumpus> yes :-)
1181 2016-10-13T22:38:51  <wumpus> <trollface>
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1183 2016-10-13T22:46:09  <musalbas>  re: checkpointing - is there anything in Bitcoin consensus to prevent someone from going back 2048 blocks to a much lower difficulty, and then doing a 51% attack from there to get the longest chain? I think I must be missing a subtle consensus rule here
1184 2016-10-13T22:46:39  <gmaxwell> you are
1185 2016-10-13T22:46:57  <gmaxwell> Bitcoin's best chain selection is not 'most blocks', it's 'most work'.
1186 2016-10-13T22:47:05  <musalbas> ahh
1187 2016-10-13T22:47:19  <gmaxwell> though this was originally wrong, and it's wrong in the whitepaper, and there is no real way to update it-- so a lot of people aren't aware.
1188 2016-10-13T22:47:31  <gmaxwell> but it's been 'most work' since some time in 2010.
1189 2016-10-13T22:47:58  <musalbas> well that clears up many shower thoughts of mine.
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1191 2016-10-13T22:48:40  <gmaxwell> (it was fixed around the same time that bitcoin first moved off the minimum difficulty)
1192 2016-10-13T22:53:04  <wumpus> maybe it would make sense to publish an 'errata' to the whitepaper
1193 2016-10-13T22:53:57  <sipa> wumpus: you'll get lynched...
1194 2016-10-13T22:54:00  <gmaxwell> lol
1195 2016-10-13T22:54:24  <musalbas> it will be like trying to modify the bible for many
1196 2016-10-13T22:54:40  <gmaxwell> so you might not be aware, but cobra proposed putting up an updated whitepaper on bitcoin.org with varrious errata and it started a week long lynchmob thing. OMG YOU CHALLENGED THE HOLY WORD.
1197 2016-10-13T22:55:23  <gmaxwell> nevermind that it's wrong in a few places, and we've learned _a lot_ about teaching people about Bitcoin since 2008.
1198 2016-10-13T22:56:58  <wumpus> oh I'd like to change the bible as well... </s>
1199 2016-10-13T22:57:40  <kanzure> all of them?
1200 2016-10-13T22:58:51  <wumpus> I think most oppositiion exists to changing the whitepaper, on the original URL, itself. Releaseing an updated version as long as it's clear that it's an updated version may run into less opposition. But I dunno, some people are pretty close to extremism
1201 2016-10-13T22:58:54  <musalbas> you can't update the bible. there are too many bible book nodes around the world, it's immutable
1202 2016-10-13T22:59:37  <wumpus> never mess with the satoshi cults...
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1204 2016-10-13T22:59:42  <kanzure> was there anyone offering to do the legwork on a bitcoin core whitepaper?
1205 2016-10-13T23:00:15  <sipa> i don't think it's a good topic for a whitepaper
1206 2016-10-13T23:00:24  <sipa> maybe some subsystems could use one
1207 2016-10-13T23:00:28  <kanzure> well maybe i have the color wrong
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1209 2016-10-13T23:00:42  <sipa> how about a black paper?
1210 2016-10-13T23:01:00  <wumpus> yes! much better
1211 2016-10-13T23:01:16  <musalbas> a black paper would waste lots of ink; you don't want critics to accuse bitcoin of using lots of energy as well as ink now
1212 2016-10-13T23:01:18  <wumpus> or a purplepaper
1213 2016-10-13T23:01:25  <sipa> we should check with dark coin
1214 2016-10-13T23:01:35  <sipa> maybe they have prior art
1215 2016-10-13T23:02:03  <wumpus> Amir's revenge?
1216 2016-10-13T23:02:59  <wumpus> darker than dark wallet
1217 2016-10-13T23:04:15  <musalbas> scientists have developed a new colour darker than black called 'super black', so it' spossible: http://newatlas.com/vantablack-super-black-material/33011/
1218 2016-10-13T23:04:30  <wumpus> infrablack
1219 2016-10-13T23:04:34  <gmaxwell> I have access to a high power pulsed laser so we can make superblack.
1220 2016-10-13T23:05:14  <gmaxwell> black on black won't be readable, but no one was going to read it anyways.
1221 2016-10-13T23:05:25  <wumpus> a hyperblock
1222 2016-10-13T23:06:19  <wumpus> yes, no matter how much energy would go into creating it, one would read it anyway
1223 2016-10-13T23:08:04  <sipa> so we are no longer restricted to a blockchain, but could use a blackchain?
1224 2016-10-13T23:08:15  <sipa> we need to combine that with rainbow tables
1225 2016-10-13T23:09:36  <wumpus> if we're no longer restricted to whitelisting, I'd prefer rainbowlisting
1226 2016-10-13T23:10:41  <gmaxwell> thats good because rainbows don't include black.
1227 2016-10-13T23:11:45  <petertodd> gmaxwell: additive color rainbows do
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1229 2016-10-13T23:12:03  <gmaxwell> sipa: back to work; is there any real reason that we couldn't just make all inbound connections one 'group' for the purpose of relay... it would slow relay down some, but really throughly kill that information leak.
1230 2016-10-13T23:14:03  <sipa> do you mean let all of them use the same timing for relay?
1231 2016-10-13T23:14:43  <gmaxwell> yes.
1232 2016-10-13T23:14:59  <gmaxwell> oh hmp. my own concern with that is it makes the traffic more bursty.
1233 2016-10-13T23:15:12  <sipa> it would worsen spikyness of relay memory
1234 2016-10-13T23:15:32  <sipa> right, and memory usage too
1235 2016-10-13T23:15:58  <gmaxwell> the memory usage should be trivial, the transactions are shared, so the usage is just pointers.
1236 2016-10-13T23:19:36  <sipa> it's a set of txids
1237 2016-10-13T23:19:46  <sipa> not shared_ptrs
1238 2016-10-13T23:20:01  <gmaxwell> pointer, txid, same difference. you're not on a 256 computer yet?
1239 2016-10-13T23:20:24  <gmaxwell> I suppose inbound could be assigned to 4 groups or 8 groups based on a hash of their netgroup. ... and that would give a lot of burst mitigation while bounding the attack upside.
1240 2016-10-13T23:21:26  <gmaxwell> (salted hash)
1241 2016-10-13T23:21:37  <sipa> i think we could turn them into weak_ptr's to CTransactions, thougg
1242 2016-10-13T23:22:22  <gmaxwell> well we could replace this datastructure per peer to a single queue, with a bitmap that has a bit per peer.
1243 2016-10-13T23:23:20  <gmaxwell> (or better, an efficiently encoded bitmap... I guess there is no STL container that works like a judy1.
1244 2016-10-13T23:23:23  <gmaxwell> )
1245 2016-10-13T23:27:49  <achow101> i'm back
1246 2016-10-13T23:30:26  <achow101> should I submit a PR for the alert or will someone with commit access to bitcoin.org sign and push the commit?
1247 2016-10-13T23:30:33  <GitHub184> [bitcoin] luke-jr opened pull request #8918: Qt: Add "Copy URI" to payment request context menu (master...gui_req_copy_uri) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8918
1248 2016-10-13T23:32:08  <gmaxwell> PR. none of us have commit access in any case, AFAIK-- and we wouldn't skip review. :)
1249 2016-10-13T23:32:12  <gmaxwell> a PR is fine.
1250 2016-10-13T23:32:43  <achow101> supposedly wumpus does: https://github.com/bitcoin-dot-org/bitcoin.org#who-to-contact
1251 2016-10-13T23:33:06  <achow101> and the readme says "Note: the commit must be signed by one of the people in the Who to Contact section for site auto-building to work." which is why I asked
1252 2016-10-13T23:35:21  <achow101> done: https://github.com/bitcoin-dot-org/bitcoin.org/pull/1392
1253 2016-10-13T23:39:58  <wumpus> a PR is good, I have commit access to be able to do emergency bitcoin core releases
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