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 96 2017-04-29T12:50:15  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/4c924011f535...80c3a734298e
 97 2017-04-29T12:50:15  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master dd1ea59 Jimmy Song: [test] Add gettxout call...
 98 2017-04-29T12:50:16  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 80c3a73 MarcoFalke: Merge #10256: [test] Add test for gettxout to wallet.py...
 99 2017-04-29T12:50:31  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #10256: [test] Add test for gettxout to wallet.py (master...test_gettxout) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10256
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144 2017-04-29T17:58:50  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sipa opened pull request #10299: Remove OpenSSL (master...simplerandom) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10299
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146 2017-04-29T18:35:44  <gmaxwell> wumpus: your comment is needed at https://github.com/bitcoin-core/secp256k1/pull/440
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151 2017-04-29T18:55:09  <BlueMatt> sipa: re: 10299: I dont think thats 100% true? doesn't openssl's rng also pull other random things on some oses?
152 2017-04-29T18:55:16  <BlueMatt> at least win used to take a screenshot or something like that, no?
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154 2017-04-29T18:56:08  <gmaxwell> look at the code sipa is removing, -- it has the screenshot addition stuff.
155 2017-04-29T18:56:25  <gmaxwell> I don't care how things are split into PRs however.
156 2017-04-29T18:57:20  <BlueMatt> ah, apologies
157 2017-04-29T18:57:48  <sipa> BlueMatt: for windows, yes, it removes all that. i can't imagine it's useful these days
158 2017-04-29T18:58:27  <sipa> but i don't know what openssl is using on netbsd that would still result in much useful entropy, if dev/urandom etc are broken
159 2017-04-29T18:59:07  <BlueMatt> are y'all gonna revive the librng idea?
160 2017-04-29T18:59:09  <BlueMatt> (please do)
161 2017-04-29T18:59:24  * jonasschnelli thinks of someone who gives out recommendation to open minesweeper before starting Core.
162 2017-04-29T18:59:41  <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: concurrency makes it too hard.
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164 2017-04-29T19:00:01  <BlueMatt> ok, so librng-no-concurrency?
165 2017-04-29T19:00:08  <sipa> gmaxwell: if it's purely gathering entropy, it's mucb easier
166 2017-04-29T19:00:11  <gmaxwell> sipa: IIRC openssl also adds a number of system things into the entropy pool. Not as extensive as what we did before.
167 2017-04-29T19:00:14  <BlueMatt> or that
168 2017-04-29T19:00:29  <BlueMatt> libgivemeentropy
169 2017-04-29T19:00:30  <gmaxwell> well. I posted code before, sipa extended in and C++ ified it.
170 2017-04-29T19:00:41  <BlueMatt> yes, my question was if y'all were gonna pull that back in
171 2017-04-29T19:00:43  <BlueMatt> (please do!)
172 2017-04-29T19:00:50  <gmaxwell> s/in/it/
173 2017-04-29T19:00:56  <sipa> yes, i'm all for that, but i think it's pretty orthogonal to getting rid of openssl
174 2017-04-29T19:01:25  <BlueMatt> orthogonal, maybe, but I'd prefer to see them in the same release
175 2017-04-29T19:02:06  <gmaxwell> next we will suggest storing that state in a memory map of its own, so its not contiguous with other variables that could bleed. :P
176 2017-04-29T19:02:18  <jonasschnelli> Would unpack stuff from #5885 (https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5885/files#diff-35f8a407f8c21cda300a45f50b6e9c74L5) make sense?
177 2017-04-29T19:02:19  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/5885 | [WIP] Replace OpenSSL PRNG with built-in Fortuna implementation by sipa · Pull Request #5885 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
178 2017-04-29T19:02:35  <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: if you think I'm asking too much, feel free to shoot it down....
179 2017-04-29T19:02:43  <BlueMatt> i have no idea how much work there is there
180 2017-04-29T19:03:28  <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: no I agree with you.
181 2017-04-29T19:03:50  <gmaxwell> I don't care if its in this PR however, but it should be in the same release.
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183 2017-04-29T19:04:17  <sipa> gmaxwell: i think it's (fun) overkill
184 2017-04-29T19:04:26  <gmaxwell> what I'd proposed before is we do the seeder first, feed its output into OpenSSL...
185 2017-04-29T19:05:07  <gmaxwell> sipa: there have been two OS releases with the OS rng returning nothing useful while we've been working on this project... I don't think making extra effort to not be completely insecure in that case is overkill.
186 2017-04-29T19:05:47  <sipa> gmaxwell: my assumption is that the (barely maintained) openssl code can't be guaranteeing much in such a broken state either
187 2017-04-29T19:06:11  <sipa> i agree it's a useful goal to attempt to be secure in that case, but i do see it as a separate improvement
188 2017-04-29T19:06:35  <gmaxwell> which was why I previously suggested doing it first. :)
189 2017-04-29T19:06:41  <sipa> this is trivial
190 2017-04-29T19:06:53  <sipa> librng will be a pain to make production ready
191 2017-04-29T19:07:05  <gmaxwell> I have no interest in a "librng" I don't think its tractable.
192 2017-04-29T19:07:07  <BlueMatt> sipa: making it a library yes, making it libgivemeentropy, I'd hope a bit less so
193 2017-04-29T19:07:23  <gmaxwell> handling concurrency is too hard if you also care a lot about performance.
194 2017-04-29T19:07:26  <sipa> BlueMatt: wumpus did not feel like pulling all that code into core without making it reusable
195 2017-04-29T19:07:49  <BlueMatt> sipa: isnt libgivemeentropy reuseable?
196 2017-04-29T19:07:54  <gmaxwell> I am going to NAK this PR, since it seems unlikely that we'll get improved seeding at all.
197 2017-04-29T19:07:57  <BlueMatt> (and easier than librng)
198 2017-04-29T19:08:05  <sipa> gmaxwell: i don't understand
199 2017-04-29T19:08:39  <sipa> why should improved seeding be a requirement to drop openssl?
200 2017-04-29T19:09:07  <gmaxwell> You are busy arguing now that we're unlikely to get improved seeding, because wumpus wanted a reusable library, and we've evaluated it and determined that making something fast and fork tolerant while handling concurrency and being portable is more or less too hard.
201 2017-04-29T19:09:17  <gmaxwell> Because the change is worse than what openssl does!
202 2017-04-29T19:09:32  <sipa> we don't need the performance requirement anymore
203 2017-04-29T19:09:57  <gmaxwell> I know we don't, but an external library does if anyone else is ever going to use it. Which is why we haven't done that.
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205 2017-04-29T19:10:16  <sipa> as all needs for randomness are split into high-performance or high-entropy, with no overlap
206 2017-04-29T19:10:31  <sipa> so a libuserentropy or whatever should become a lot easier to do
207 2017-04-29T19:11:01  <sipa> which makes it tractable to do
208 2017-04-29T19:11:06  <sipa> but it's still a lot of work
209 2017-04-29T19:11:18  <sipa> which i think shouldn't be blocking this
210 2017-04-29T19:12:15  <gmaxwell> This is obviously weaker than the initilization with openssl. You're basically arguing that this should go first because doing other things won't happen soon. Don't you see why I can't support that?
211 2017-04-29T19:12:48  <gmaxwell> Seperate PRs fine, but a change that I think is only acceptable with another change that you're saying won't happen soon?
212 2017-04-29T19:13:12  <sipa> my view is that we currently have no guarantees about security if OS entropy is broken
213 2017-04-29T19:13:26  <sipa> this makes it stronger, because all randomness queries no go to the OS
214 2017-04-29T19:13:30  <sipa> *now
215 2017-04-29T19:14:09  <sipa> if we want security in the assumotion of a broken OS, that is something that can be done independently (and more easily after this PR)
216 2017-04-29T19:14:14  <sipa> *assumption
217 2017-04-29T19:15:15  <gmaxwell> It's stronger because it goes straight to something which we've known to be insecure in recent memory?
218 2017-04-29T19:15:44  <sipa> go find me what openssl would do in those cases
219 2017-04-29T19:16:12  <sipa> do we even know?
220 2017-04-29T19:16:22  <gmaxwell> I posted about it before, rng is seeded based on a collection of different pointers and timestamps. And in Bitcoin on windows, based on a screenshot.
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222 2017-04-29T19:18:22  <sipa> does that guarantee anything?
223 2017-04-29T19:18:46  <sipa> at least you'd need things like memory latency based measurements
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225 2017-04-29T19:19:26  * BlueMatt is so confused, what was wrong with taking just the entropy-generating parts, pulling those out into a libgivemeentropy, and using that as an entropy source?
226 2017-04-29T19:19:49  <BlueMatt> sounds a) doable on a reasonable timeline (unlike, maybe, librng) b) just as good for our usage
227 2017-04-29T19:19:50  <sipa> BlueMatt: nothing wrong with it, i think it's a great idea
228 2017-04-29T19:20:10  <sipa> but i think it's orthogonal to chaning the RNG
229 2017-04-29T19:20:18  <BlueMatt> ok, so lets do both that and removing openssl in the same release and move on with our day?
230 2017-04-29T19:21:32  <sipa> well if there is a requirement to do it in the same release, we should do it simultaneously
231 2017-04-29T19:21:41  <gmaxwell> sipa: nothing here guarentees anything; thats a weird ask that you're making.
232 2017-04-29T19:22:06  <sipa> sigh
233 2017-04-29T19:22:08  * sipa weekend
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240 2017-04-29T19:39:45  <sipa> gmaxwell: if all the seeding code was something we'd just add in random.cpp, i'll gladly do it even in the same PR
241 2017-04-29T19:40:04  <sipa> but my assumption is that others wouldn't consider that the right place
242 2017-04-29T19:40:45  <sipa> and if what is needed is a separate library will autotools and various detection for parts of operating systems, that's not something i want to take on writing and maintaing
243 2017-04-29T19:42:04  <sipa> and if we both need better seeding code and making it effectively reusable are requirements before making progress on our RNG code, then yes, i fear it won't happen
244 2017-04-29T19:42:06  <BlueMatt> sipa: I'm happy with it in random.cpp, that sounds like a wumpus question, though
245 2017-04-29T19:42:25  <sipa> yes
246 2017-04-29T19:43:28  <sipa> but it's not an unreasonable thing to ask
247 2017-04-29T19:43:38  <sipa> and neither is requiring better seeding code
248 2017-04-29T19:44:07  <sipa> in my view, if your OS randomness is broken, you're fucked
249 2017-04-29T19:44:25  <sipa> maybe the current OpenSSL code helps with it, and maybe it doesn't
250 2017-04-29T19:44:43  <sipa> it's a cool problem, with a cool solution, to try to protect against that
251 2017-04-29T19:46:50  <sipa> but i don't feel like working on it when there are too many conflicting demands
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