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 12 2017-05-12T00:35:22  <instagibbs> sipa, could you plot as CDF?
 13 2017-05-12T00:36:26  <sipa> instagibbs: https://bitcoin.sipa.be/depths.xz
 14 2017-05-12T00:36:29  <sipa> have fun :)
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 18 2017-05-12T00:38:44  <gmaxwell> I've been chewing on that data, and I don't think it really supports the 144 block target very much.
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 22 2017-05-12T01:02:12  <gmaxwell> sipa: do you have more detailed data?
 23 2017-05-12T01:08:47  <sipa> i have timestamps + depth for each block transfer
 24 2017-05-12T01:10:00  <gmaxwell> logically we'd want to put our breakpoints at peaks in the second derivative of the total blocks served (the cumulative version of that data).  Which would in peaks of the derivative of your data.. but it's measurements so getting a useful derivative is hard.   working from a smoothed spline it looks like the peaks are at 29, 199, and then there is so much periodic behavior that its hard to see
 25 2017-05-12T01:10:06  <gmaxwell> any other trend.   What I think I'm seeing is 24 hour-ish cycles,  but they're spread out in block count due to difficulty changing.
 26 2017-05-12T01:10:29  <gmaxwell> e.g. if you want to fully capture a 24-hour sycle then perhaps you need 200 blocks, because there can be 200 blocks in a day.
 27 2017-05-12T01:12:23  <petertodd> gmaxwell: when have I last responded to a post that you think wasn't worth responding too?
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 32 2017-05-12T01:22:57  <gmaxwell> petertodd: I can't think of a recent example, remark wasn't intended to criticize your behavior. Sorry if it came off that way.
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 35 2017-05-12T01:47:41  <gmaxwell> sipa: so from this data, I'm not seeing a lot of justification for anything but a single level at around 200 blocks +plus a dozen or so blocks for headroom (so, e.g. 288 would be fine).    If I use a cumulative maximum from the end to estimate how many transfers are due to fullsync-- there are 107, if then subtract those off, 90% of the cumulative transfer is met by depth 244, and 99% by 410.
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 38 2017-05-12T02:38:59  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] instagibbs opened pull request #10390: [wallet] remove minimum total fee option (master...killminfee) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10390
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 56 2017-05-12T04:16:11  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] luke-jr opened pull request #10391: OP_CHECKBLOCKATHEIGHT anti-replay (BIP 115; logic only) (master...cbah) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10391
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 73 2017-05-12T06:10:47  <jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: Agree on what you said about the bitcoin-dev list. I refuse to answer.
 74 2017-05-12T06:16:26  <dcousens> jonasschnelli: here I was thinking about the "2048" of coin selection
 75 2017-05-12T06:16:54  <jonasschnelli> 2048?
 76 2017-05-12T06:17:04  <dcousens> https://gabrielecirulli.github.io/2048/
 77 2017-05-12T06:18:33  <jonasschnelli> I wasn't aware of that game,...
 78 2017-05-12T06:18:47  * jonasschnelli 's productive goes rapidly down
 79 2017-05-12T06:18:56  <dcousens> jonasschnelli: ha, my bad
 80 2017-05-12T06:19:02  <jonasschnelli> ;-)
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 82 2017-05-12T06:23:09  <sipa> jonasschnelli: oh god, i lost about 6 months of my life to that game
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103 2017-05-12T10:45:23  <petertodd> gmaxwell: no worries, I was just wondering if there was something I missed :)
104 2017-05-12T10:45:50  <petertodd> gmaxwell: I'm sure I've done that in the far past! :)
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106 2017-05-12T12:00:51  <SopaXorzTaker> the possibility of ASICBOOST is a vulnerability in the PoW
107 2017-05-12T12:00:55  <SopaXorzTaker> let's fix it now
108 2017-05-12T12:01:12  <SopaXorzTaker> then Bitmain would finally move their fat lazy... uhm and accept SegWit
109 2017-05-12T12:02:08  <SopaXorzTaker> I mean, that's suggested on Reddit and is definitely about the Core
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118 2017-05-12T12:55:13  <jonasschnelli> sipa: what do you think about ryanofsky comment here? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8501#discussion_r115811850
119 2017-05-12T12:56:45  <jonasschnelli> I guess the 26bytes may be padded to 32... so I guess ryanofsky is right here.
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130 2017-05-12T13:57:58  <SopaXorzTaker> jonasschnelli, hey
131 2017-05-12T13:58:07  <SopaXorzTaker> could I ask for some offtopic help?
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136 2017-05-12T14:01:47  <vedochiaro> ciao
137 2017-05-12T14:01:59  <vedochiaro> musica anni 80
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147 2017-05-12T14:41:01  <jonasschnelli> SopaXorzTaker: shoot
148 2017-05-12T14:41:29  <jonasschnelli> If its offtopic use a on-topic channel or PM me
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150 2017-05-12T14:45:51  <cchadwicka> i need to find an online wallet that allows me to buy bitcoin from within the wallet with a credit card, like coinbase, but a different one
151 2017-05-12T14:45:54  <cchadwicka> any ideas
152 2017-05-12T14:46:08  <instagibbs> cchadwicka, #bitcoin
153 2017-05-12T14:46:09  <jonasschnelli> cchadwicka: please no cross posts... use #bitcoin
154 2017-05-12T14:47:23  <cchadwicka> i am banned from bitcoin
155 2017-05-12T14:47:37  <cchadwicka> im new here and they kicked me out yesterday
156 2017-05-12T14:47:43  <cchadwicka> because i was off topic
157 2017-05-12T14:48:00  <sipa> and if you keep posting offtopic things here, i'll ban you too
158 2017-05-12T14:55:14  <sipa> jonasschnelli: absolutely, you need to pack the bytes if you want to save space on it
159 2017-05-12T14:55:36  <sipa> jonasschnelli: but don't bother, saving 2 bytes in such a structure is negligablr
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175 2017-05-12T16:20:22  <kanzure> jonasschnelli: fundrawtransaction complains about minimum fee policy when i set feeRate to 0; i have an output with the fee and i was just going to delete the output later...
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177 2017-05-12T16:22:40  <kanzure> "Note that all inputs selected must be of standard form and P2SH scripts must be in the wallet using importaddress or addmultisigaddress (to calculate fees)."
178 2017-05-12T16:23:51  <kanzure> does that mean that if i'm spending p2sh inputs that my wallet doesn't know about (except by importaddress p2sh-address) in my fundrawtransaction input transaction, do i need to first run importaddress redeemscript?
179 2017-05-12T16:26:19  <kanzure> really i just want it to ignore my existing inputs-- i could easily pass my estimate of the final transaction size, if necessary.
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184 2017-05-12T16:38:52  <kanzure> this seems related https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/9965
185 2017-05-12T16:39:46  <kanzure> this claims to override minimum estimated fee but i get error "Transaction too large for fee policy" with feeRate=0 https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7967
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188 2017-05-12T16:52:16  <instagibbs> kanzure, ah, yes that's a check I've always wondered about, that sounds like a sharp edge
189 2017-05-12T16:52:43  <instagibbs> It's checking the fee you're getting against the entire transaction size once constructed
190 2017-05-12T16:52:48  <kanzure> sure.
191 2017-05-12T16:58:21  <instagibbs> I don't totally get the check's reasoning tbh.
192 2017-05-12T16:58:22  <instagibbs> / If we made it here and we aren't even able to meet the relay fee on the next pass, give up
193 2017-05-12T16:58:23  <instagibbs>                 // because we must be at the maximum allowed fee.
194 2017-05-12T17:02:04  <kanzure> workaround: create a fake transaction of the same size as the estimated final size of my unsigned watchonly-p2sh-spending transaction, and then use fundrawtransaction and i'll pass a realistic feeRate value.
195 2017-05-12T17:02:33  <instagibbs> I think the check is just supposed to be reversed.
196 2017-05-12T17:02:42  <kanzure> and then i'll delete the fake inputs/outputs from the fundrawtransaction output.
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198 2017-05-12T17:05:09  <kanzure> specifically my problem is that fundrawtransaction gives me "Signing transaction failed" when i directly pass my unsigned watcholy-p2sh-spending transaction as the input to fundrawtransaction.  so i figured hey i'll just set feeRate to 0 on a dummy transaction, add a change output that i'll delete later, and then use fundrawtransaction... which also has problems.
199 2017-05-12T17:05:32  <kanzure> *watchonly
200 2017-05-12T17:07:18  <instagibbs> possibly related: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10202
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202 2017-05-12T17:13:45  <kanzure> replied, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10202#issuecomment-301134038
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204 2017-05-12T17:24:06  <kanzure> instagibbs: okay here is my new workaround.   createrawtransaction with a change output spending back to myself the total fee that i would like to spend. fundrawtransaction with reasonable feeRate.  using fundrawtransaction output dictionary, i'll switch the "change" output amount to be the fundrawtransaction fee amount, so ultimately there is no extra fee and my original "fee" request shou...
205 2017-05-12T17:24:12  <kanzure> ...ld be satisfied.
206 2017-05-12T17:25:01  <kanzure> and the final transaction will have two change outputs (unless i consolidate).
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208 2017-05-12T18:02:32  <paveljanik> Are GetDustThreshold and IsDust expected to be called with dustRelayFee other than ::dustRelayFee?
209 2017-05-12T18:11:47  <instagibbs> It seems surprising behavior to me to have the wallet simply reduce the fee if it hits maxTxFee, other than panic and abort.
210 2017-05-12T18:13:05  <instagibbs> rather than*
211 2017-05-12T18:26:31  <kanzure> huh, signrawtransaction also gives me an error ("Operation not valid with the current stack size")
212 2017-05-12T18:26:54  <Chris_Stewart_5> Hmm, I think I have had that problem when I forgot to call fundrawtransaction first?
213 2017-05-12T18:27:37  <kanzure> i have definitely called fundrawtransaction; i excised the inputs and outputs, and added them to my unsigned p2sh-spending transaction.
214 2017-05-12T18:31:02  <Chris_Stewart_5> with watch-only p2sh spending txs the redeemScript is imported right?
215 2017-05-12T18:32:29  <kanzure> i am spending watch-only p2sh transactions, however i did not pass includeWatching to fundrawtransaction -- i supplied an unsigned transaction to start with.
216 2017-05-12T18:33:13  <kanzure> also, i did not import the redeemscripts, is that important
217 2017-05-12T18:33:40  <kanzure> (why would that be important for signrawtransaction? i want to sign only the inputs i'm able to sign.)
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221 2017-05-12T18:38:48  <kanzure> oh, that's a misleading error message, that's how it reports the transaction is incompletely signed?
222 2017-05-12T18:39:39  <Chris_Stewart_5> No, it returns a bool indicating if it is fully signed: https://bitcoin.org/en/developer-reference#signrawtransaction
223 2017-05-12T18:40:36  <Chris_Stewart_5> Why are you adding a watch-only output to a tx you are creating? You can't fullfill the spending conditions of it by definition
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225 2017-05-12T18:41:32  <Chris_Stewart_5> fundrawtransaction will add inputs to the tx until it *fully* funds the outputs of that tx
226 2017-05-12T18:44:43  <kanzure> the transaction is fully funded by my inputs, to my knowledge, prior to calling fundrawtransaction with the exception of any extra fee i'm trying to add.
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228 2017-05-12T18:45:56  <kanzure> Chris_Stewart_5: yeah i was overly focused on "errors" that i overlooked "complete: False" and that it had a new scriptsig :)
229 2017-05-12T18:47:05  <Chris_Stewart_5> so fundrawtransaction isn't giving you a large enough fee?
230 2017-05-12T18:47:37  <kanzure> fundrawtransaction is giving me an error "Signing transaction failed" if i try to directly call it with my transaction
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232 2017-05-12T18:47:58  <kanzure> probably because it's using dummy signatures somewhere-- i dunno- and yeah i have not imported the redeemscripts (if that's necessary- which is still unclear to me)
233 2017-05-12T18:48:28  <Chris_Stewart_5> Well, if you (or some one else) is trying to spend a p2sh output the redeem script must be provided in the scriptSig
234 2017-05-12T18:48:49  <kanzure> i may not have put the reedemScripts in the scriptSigs yet.
235 2017-05-12T18:48:59  <Chris_Stewart_5> But since it seems like the p2sh output isn't yours, your counterparty will have to sign the p2sh output and provide the redeem script
236 2017-05-12T18:49:19  <instagibbs> kanzure, that would explain it as it's expecting more stack items
237 2017-05-12T18:49:32  <Chris_Stewart_5> ^
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239 2017-05-12T18:49:35  <kanzure> i'd like to add fee first, sign for the fee, then sign the other outputs-- it's exceedingly inconvenient for me to do this in another order.
240 2017-05-12T18:49:41  <kanzure> *sign for the other inputs
241 2017-05-12T18:50:18  <Chris_Stewart_5> You should be able to do it that way, then just pass the partially signed tx to your counterparty
242 2017-05-12T18:50:36  <kanzure> i think we've already confirmed that i can't because of the error?
243 2017-05-12T18:51:17  <Chris_Stewart_5> oh, yes.. hmm..
244 2017-05-12T18:51:56  <kanzure> anyway, my workaround seems to be working for me, where i use createrawtransaction with an output that represents my fee, then later i remove the output, copy the inputs and any extra outputs added by fundrawtransaction to my actual transaction, and then i call signrawtransaction.
245 2017-05-12T18:53:10  <kanzure> (also i'm adding the "fee" reported by fundrawtransaction to the change output reported by fundrawtransaction, since i have deleted the output that has my actual fee)
246 2017-05-12T18:53:38  <Chris_Stewart_5> kanzure: Can't your counter party just add the p2sh output to the transaction? If you remove that outpoint your wallet can sign the tx right?
247 2017-05-12T18:54:12  <kanzure> er, maybe. but keep in mind that i was calling fundrawtransaction not signrawtransaction-- it's something about dummy sigs.
248 2017-05-12T18:54:50  <sipa> is the problem that fundrawtransactrion can't determine the feerate of your overall transaction as it does not know how large the scriptSigs of some inputs will need to be?
249 2017-05-12T18:54:52  <kanzure> so you're saying that i have a partial outpoint and that fundrawtransaction should not report "Signing transaction failed" once i remove the incompete outpoint?
250 2017-05-12T18:54:56  <Chris_Stewart_5> but in the hex transaction you provided to fundrawtransaction you had specified the watch-only p2sh output?
251 2017-05-12T18:55:03  <sipa> and as a result can't determine how much fee to use?
252 2017-05-12T18:55:29  <kanzure> sipa: right, that seems likely to me. i am also interested in confirming/denying with someone whether i need to "importpubkey redeemscript" to overcome that?
253 2017-05-12T18:56:12  <sipa> or importscript
254 2017-05-12T18:56:44  <sipa> if fundrawtransaction doesn't know what kind of redeemscript a P2SH output that's being spent has, it can't determine feerate
255 2017-05-12T18:57:00  <sipa> it may need both, unsure
256 2017-05-12T18:57:26  <kanzure> i added a comment here explaining that perhaps a better design would be to let user specify the final transaction size (if the user knows it) or allowing feeRate=0 if the user plans to delete an output later https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10202#issuecomment-301134038
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259 2017-05-12T18:59:15  <kanzure> perhaps CreateTransaction is overloaded at this point :p
260 2017-05-12T19:00:01  <sipa> just slightly
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264 2017-05-12T19:08:24  <SopaXorzTaker> sipa, can you provide some secp256k1 test cases?
265 2017-05-12T19:09:09  <SopaXorzTaker> such as, "for private key 0xdeadbeef, z=0xabcd, k=0x1337, r=0x1234 and s=0x5678
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288 2017-05-12T21:40:32  <sipa> general question: how useful is gettxoutsetinfo's serialized_bytes field?
289 2017-05-12T21:40:52  <sipa> it does not correspond to actual disk usage, and is highly database dependent
290 2017-05-12T21:41:29  <sipa> it's also impossible to even give a reasonable estimate for after pertxout, except by iterating over the whole database (which I'd like to get rid of)
291 2017-05-12T21:49:44  <gmaxwell> I think it's not useful, or rather the only thing I've ever used it for is taking about how big the utxo set is on reddit, and an on-disk size would be _better_ for that.
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294 2017-05-12T22:09:24  <BlueMatt> sipa: heh, I have some reivew comments noting it seems out of sync with everything....
295 2017-05-12T22:09:35  <BlueMatt> sipa: gah, why did you kill Accessors?
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297 2017-05-12T22:13:24  <sipa> BlueMatt: i didn't
298 2017-05-12T22:13:34  <sipa> how do you mean out of sync?
299 2017-05-12T22:20:04  <BlueMatt> ehh, meant Modifiers not Accessors
300 2017-05-12T22:20:29  <BlueMatt> sipa: what is serialized_bytes /supposed/ to show? it seems to not represent anything that actually means something (both before and especially, as you note, after)
301 2017-05-12T22:21:05  <sipa> BlueMatt: i'm very happy to get rid of Modifiers :D
302 2017-05-12T22:21:11  <sipa> they're so complicated to reason about
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304 2017-05-12T22:21:28  <BlueMatt> they were there to prevent footgun incidents :(
305 2017-05-12T22:21:46  <sipa> yes, if you have modifiable references
306 2017-05-12T22:21:50  <BlueMatt> now you can take a AccessCoins, then add something to the cache, then blow your face off
307 2017-05-12T22:21:58  <sipa> AccessCoins returns a const reference
308 2017-05-12T22:21:59  <BlueMatt> AccessCoins gives you such a reference, though?
309 2017-05-12T22:22:11  <sipa> the only way to modify is through AddCoin and SpendCoin (and BatchWrite)
310 2017-05-12T22:22:23  <BlueMatt> yes, but if you add something to the cache the reference is still invalid? or are unordered_map refs still valid?
311 2017-05-12T22:22:50  <BlueMatt> ofc if you remove from cache the same element you've still blown your face off
312 2017-05-12T22:23:14  <sipa> adding something to the cache may always invalidate references
313 2017-05-12T22:23:20  <sipa> Modifiers didn't help with that
314 2017-05-12T22:23:31  <BlueMatt> didnt add assert(!fHasModifier)?
315 2017-05-12T22:23:40  <BlueMatt> which is what you want if you're returning refs from inside the object
316 2017-05-12T22:23:50  <BlueMatt> (or, it should have, if it didnt)
317 2017-05-12T22:23:56  <sipa> yes, there could be at most be one modifier at a time
318 2017-05-12T22:24:05  <sipa> but that didn't prevent any concurrent references
319 2017-05-12T22:24:26  <BlueMatt> well we could trivially fix that - reintroduce modifiers and allow multiple ones, but assert when you actually modify the cache that there are no other ones
320 2017-05-12T22:24:39  <sipa> that won't do anything
321 2017-05-12T22:24:48  <BlueMatt> they did prevent some footguns, though, like you couldnt take two at a time because that implies you're possibly modifying the cache
322 2017-05-12T22:25:00  <BlueMatt> sipa: I meant modifier here as accessor, really, from AccessCoins
323 2017-05-12T22:25:13  <BlueMatt> since its returning a possibly-invalidated-by-other-action reference
324 2017-05-12T22:25:21  <sipa> they prevented exactly the same footguns as are now prevented by just having explicit modification methods
325 2017-05-12T22:25:24  <BlueMatt> easy to accidentally have one stick around too long
326 2017-05-12T22:25:36  <sipa> yes, we could make AccessCoin return something like a modifier... but that seems an independent change
327 2017-05-12T22:25:38  <BlueMatt> fair
328 2017-05-12T22:25:59  <BlueMatt> I'd like to see that (or just not return a ref, have you checked the performance overhead of doing that copy everywhere?)
329 2017-05-12T22:27:36  <sipa> i really don't like copying potentially large data structures where it's unneeded
330 2017-05-12T22:27:58  <sipa> it's also imcompatible with reducing some of the duplicate output lookups during block/tx validation
331 2017-05-12T22:28:02  <BlueMatt> fair, I am worried about the footgun potential there, though
332 2017-05-12T22:28:17  <BlueMatt> maybe we can do the copy for now and introduce an accessor in a separate pr?
333 2017-05-12T22:28:25  <sipa> please
334 2017-05-12T22:28:25  * BlueMatt doesnt want to audit for this case :(
335 2017-05-12T22:28:30  <sipa> you don't have to
336 2017-05-12T22:28:40  <sipa> nothing has changed wrt that case
337 2017-05-12T22:28:57  <sipa> nothing that was prevented is no longer prevent
338 2017-05-12T22:29:03  <sipa> and nothing that wasn't prevent is prevented now
339 2017-05-12T22:29:07  <BlueMatt> hmm, maybe i missed part of how it used to work, though i vaguely recall you doing some AccessCoins in place of old modifiers
340 2017-05-12T22:29:08  <BlueMatt> maybe im wrong
341 2017-05-12T22:30:24  <sipa> modifiers were only used when a modification was expected
342 2017-05-12T22:33:36  <sipa> ok, so in the rpc signing code and in bitcoin-tx, there used to be a Modifier that was both used check whether an output already existed, and then add it
343 2017-05-12T22:33:49  <sipa> which is now turned into an AccessCoin + AddCoin
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345 2017-05-12T22:35:22  <BlueMatt> yea, i mean its probably no big deal, just more shit to review, would be good to also add some kind of checker later so that it doesnt blow up in our face
346 2017-05-12T22:35:31  <BlueMatt> cause it'd be easy to slip a change in later that breaks that
347 2017-05-12T22:37:43  <sipa> FWIW, i'm adding a commit that adds a disk_size to gettexoutsetinfo instead, which just asks LevelDB for the actual size
348 2017-05-12T22:37:59  <BlueMatt> that sounds much better
349 2017-05-12T22:40:29  <sipa> BlueMatt: std::unordered_map references are only invalidated when the corresponding entry is deleted
350 2017-05-12T22:40:44  <sipa> they remain valid under addition, including when rehashing occurs
351 2017-05-12T22:43:26  <BlueMatt> oh, heh, i thought you said no earlier, ok
352 2017-05-12T22:43:31  <BlueMatt> yea, makes sense
353 2017-05-12T22:44:13  <sipa> iterators are invalidated, but iterators from the underlying CCoinsViewCache are never exposed anymore
354 2017-05-12T22:44:53  <BlueMatt> ohoh, ok
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