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  17 2017-08-17T01:03:20  <gmaxwell> Wow, this is super dishonest https://segwit2x.github.io/segwit2x-announce.html  ... "Bitcoin Upgrade" is untrue... it claims Bitcoin "Classic" and unlimited are compatible "Compatible Fully-Validating Node Software" but they don't implement the S2X rules and don't even implement segwit!
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  20 2017-08-17T01:17:52  <luke-jr> gmaxwell: Classic and BU merged 2X code
  21 2017-08-17T01:18:59  <luke-jr> funny how they didn't include XT, Knots, btcsuite, et al on their lists
  22 2017-08-17T01:19:01  <gmaxwell> luke-jr: they merged segwit?!
  23 2017-08-17T01:19:06  <luke-jr> gmaxwell: no, just 2X
  24 2017-08-17T01:19:28  <luke-jr> it's still super dishonest, just not *totally* bogus
  25 2017-08-17T01:19:33  <gmaxwell> then they're not compatible fully validating s2x nodes.
  26 2017-08-17T01:19:43  <luke-jr> remember that crowd thinks SPV is fine
  27 2017-08-17T01:19:45  <gmaxwell> they don't list bitcoinj
  28 2017-08-17T01:20:01  <gmaxwell> or any other SPV client.
  29 2017-08-17T01:20:32  <luke-jr> ‎[01:19:28] ‎<‎luke-jr‎>‎ it's still super dishonest, just not *totally* bogus
  30 2017-08-17T01:21:00  <gmaxwell> if they said "[compatible fully validating nodes] btc1 \n [compatible wallet software] bitcoin classic\n" it would n... oh okay, well I suppose because it's not a lie in every possible sense it's okay. :P
  31 2017-08-17T01:21:57  <luke-jr> in other news, Texas Bitcoin conference is promoting 2X as if it's Bitcoin, so I think that makes the decision to go simple (ie, not to)
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  36 2017-08-17T01:53:36  <morcos> BlueMatt: is there an ascii middle finger? 3- or something?
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  40 2017-08-17T02:15:14  <jimpo> This grant doesn't appear to be checked in ThreadOpenConnections. https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/net.cpp#L1712. Only the one in ProcessOneShot is. Why is that?
  41 2017-08-17T02:17:03  <jimpo> Ah, got it. It's the fTry constructor param.
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  53 2017-08-17T04:05:29  <shesek> gmaxwell, luke-jr: I mentioned that to them: https://github.com/segwit2x/segwit2x.github.io/pull/6#discussion_r132615997 https://github.com/segwit2x/segwit2x.github.io/pull/6#discussion_r132616222
  54 2017-08-17T04:05:32  <shesek> they ignored me.
  55 2017-08-17T04:07:28  <chainhead> I also mentioned it, multiple times and they deny that it is even possibly misleading
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 333 2017-08-17T05:01:22  <gmaxwell> https://twitter.com/bcoreproject/status/897966294083018760  people faking our project on twitter and pretending that we're supporting s2x. :(
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 354 2017-08-17T05:46:42  <fanquake> sipa such biased technical opinions :p
 355 2017-08-17T05:47:12  <sipa> fanquake: i realized too late i should just have said "this belongs on the mailinglist"
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 392 2017-08-17T07:11:37  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #11053: refactor: Make all #includes relative to project root (master...2017_08_includes_absolute) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11053
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 400 2017-08-17T07:26:43  <wumpus> so if I compute correctly, going from base58 to base62 would make addresses 1.6% shorter, so for the usual bitcoin address length of 34 characters it would save half a character. Wow. Yes, definitely enough reason to break compatibility with all other wallets :)
 401 2017-08-17T07:28:58  <gmaxwell> hah where was that from
 402 2017-08-17T07:29:44  <wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11072 - ah base62x is apparently that person's own project
 403 2017-08-17T07:31:01  <gmaxwell> hehe Meets all these requirements, except it doesn't. :P
 404 2017-08-17T07:33:16  <gmaxwell> well, I suppose it does have advantages over base64...  but man his c code is scary.
 405 2017-08-17T07:33:57  <wumpus> they provide code examples but not even really a description, there seems to be a link to a paper in chinese
 406 2017-08-17T07:34:46  <gmaxwell> it's an encoding with upper and lower alpha plus nums 2*26+10  which does have the advantage that a single line of it will click copy and paste.
 407 2017-08-17T07:35:17  <gmaxwell> Which was a consideration for us in bech32 (and made use leave out - as a seperator character)
 408 2017-08-17T07:41:23  <midnightmagic> Uh.
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 412 2017-08-17T07:47:00  <midnightmagic> wumpus: Now that segwit2x is essentially pretending to be core, perhaps finally there's enough damage accrued from jgarzik that removing him from the team page is a good idea. :-( Re: https://segwit2x.github.io/segwit2x-announce.html and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15032360 :-(
 413 2017-08-17T07:48:03  <midnightmagic> In particular, the confusion that his presence on that list will likely be causing will be significant, and difficult to properly counter as long as he's still on there.
 414 2017-08-17T07:49:02  <wumpus> I agree...
 415 2017-08-17T07:51:10  <wumpus> though the bitcoin core organization pages are https://github.com/bitcoin-core and https://bitcoincore.org/en/team/  and he's on neither of them
 416 2017-08-17T07:51:36  <midnightmagic> I was thinking of this one: https://github.com/orgs/bitcoin/people
 417 2017-08-17T07:52:02  <wumpus> yes...
 418 2017-08-17T07:52:27  <gmaxwell> perhaps that should just be made private, it's kinda lopsided if you don't know what it means.
 419 2017-08-17T07:52:37  * midnightmagic shrugs.
 420 2017-08-17T07:52:53  <gmaxwell> (I mean it's alphabetic or something, and lists people who don't have any special privledges except being taggable on issues)
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 423 2017-08-17T07:55:53  <midnightmagic> I'm pretty sure (but don't have concrete evidence) that he himself points people at that list as a proof-of-core team list, which would be if so kinda crappy. I mean after all *I* know who's doing what but I'm just some rando. Meh. Just a thought.
 424 2017-08-17T07:56:59  <wumpus> so, evryone in favor of removing him from that list?
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 428 2017-08-17T07:57:55  <gmaxwell> I would be confused as to why he was there at all if I didn't know about how that particular list doesn't mean much of anything in particular.
 429 2017-08-17T07:58:20  <wumpus> well the idea is, indeed, to add frequent contributors so that they can be tagged
 430 2017-08-17T07:58:33  <wumpus> Mr. Garzik hasn't been a contributor of any frequency for a loong time
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 433 2017-08-17T07:59:58  <wumpus> also he spreads damaging lies in name of the project
 434 2017-08-17T08:00:02  <wumpus> so I think it's clear
 435 2017-08-17T08:00:57  <gmaxwell> Last commit was almost two years ago. In the total year of 2015 he made 4.
 436 2017-08-17T08:01:20  <gmaxwell> And he says a lot of things that are over the top untrue, I've complained privately to him about his conduct dozens of times.
 437 2017-08-17T08:01:59  <gmaxwell> His responses are unprofesional (though, to be fair, after the Nth time of finding them falling on deaf ears my complaints have been none too kind.)
 438 2017-08-17T08:02:48  <gmaxwell> In any case I hope you'd remove me if I'd been inactive much less creating problems.
 439 2017-08-17T08:03:07  <midnightmagic> you troublemaker you ;-)
 440 2017-08-17T08:03:27  * midnightmagic serves coffee
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 445 2017-08-17T08:09:26  <achow101> I'm in favor of removing him
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 450 2017-08-17T08:28:55  <wumpus> I'd like to add a few people too, just sent achow101 an invite, any other suggestions for active contributors that should be on the list?
 451 2017-08-17T08:29:17  <fanquake> kallewoof ?
 452 2017-08-17T08:29:35  <wumpus> I was thinking of them too
 453 2017-08-17T08:30:00  <fanquake> maybe ryanofsky
 454 2017-08-17T08:30:14  <fanquake> Do they both work for chaincode ?
 455 2017-08-17T08:30:23  <wumpus> invited kallewoof
 456 2017-08-17T08:30:24  <wumpus> ryanofsky is already in the list
 457 2017-08-17T08:34:03  * kallewoof works for Digital Garage
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 469 2017-08-17T09:03:47  <gmaxwell> is anyone collecting feerate | rough arrival time | n blocks to confirm data for all transactions for the last couple months so I could try some feerate estimation ideas
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 507 2017-08-17T12:29:45  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] BitonicEelis opened pull request #11073: Remove dead store in ecdsa_signature_parse_der_lax. (master...deadstore) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11073
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 526 2017-08-17T13:35:20  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] BitonicEelis opened pull request #11074: Assert that CWallet::SyncMetaData finds oldest transaction. (master...syncassert) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11074
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 530 2017-08-17T13:45:16  <webuser232> gmaxwell, what do you think about this? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11064
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 534 2017-08-17T14:31:16  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] practicalswift opened pull request #11076: 0.15 release-note nits: fix redundancy, remove accidental parenthesis & fix range style (0.15...0.15-release-notes) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11076
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 536 2017-08-17T14:48:46  <BlueMatt> morcos: I appreciate that you ask me, but I'm certainly not hip with the ascii art
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 538 2017-08-17T14:55:42  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jnewbery opened pull request #11077: [tests] fix timeout issues from TestNode (master...test_node_fixes) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11077
 539 2017-08-17T15:01:27  <morcos> BlueMatt: well it was most relevant what you would interpret that way... :)
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 542 2017-08-17T15:06:44  <webuser232> wumpus, re your reply over https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11064 , posting an idea publicly like that usually saves you all the work you listed in case you missed something obvious to begin with
 543 2017-08-17T15:07:52  <wumpus> I don't think you missed anything obvious, it should absolutely be possible to use "AI" for fee estimation, if you include all possible things that are counted under the buzzword "AI" nowadays
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 546 2017-08-17T15:08:56  <wumpus> without going into detail about what exactly you want to do, there's no useful responses to give
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 554 2017-08-17T15:11:45  <webuser232> wumpus, I agree with you mostly. I just wanted to see peoples first/gut/intuitive reaction to the idea proposed, that's all.
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 556 2017-08-17T15:12:56  <webuser232> jnewbery, thanks for you input!
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 558 2017-08-17T15:17:13  <sipa> "use AI to solve it!" is not very different from saying "use software to solve it!"
 559 2017-08-17T15:17:30  <wumpus> why not use physics to solve it!
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 561 2017-08-17T15:19:36  <webuser232> sipa, wumpus, very rich. I get it first time. No need to mock.
 562 2017-08-17T15:19:54  <wumpus> but yeah, I'm sure the current fee estimation can be classified as AI of some kind already, despite not yet having gained consciousness
 563 2017-08-17T15:19:58  <karelb> Hello, nobody replied at #bitcoin, I hope I am not interrupting a meeting again, I will ask here
 564 2017-08-17T15:20:05  <karelb> question about bitcoin 0.15.0 ... does estimatesmartfee return the same fees as estimatefee?
 565 2017-08-17T15:20:22  <karelb> ignoring the errors and the conservative mode
 566 2017-08-17T15:20:24  <promag> morcos: is it relevant to call UpdateMovingAverages while syncing?
 567 2017-08-17T15:20:28  <jnewbery> karelb no, it's a new implementation
 568 2017-08-17T15:20:31  <karelb> ok
 569 2017-08-17T15:20:45  <promag> morcos: there is some performance improvement if not
 570 2017-08-17T15:21:38  <karelb> so esttimatefee returns the same fees, estimatesmartfee returns a better estimate
 571 2017-08-17T15:21:40  <karelb> great
 572 2017-08-17T15:21:41  <morcos> promag: that issue has already been raised.. i think cfields has a proposed fix he is going to PR..  but yeah we should optimize it
 573 2017-08-17T15:22:17  <morcos> karelb: estimatefee is deprecated for 0.15.  it returns something slightly different than 0.14's estimatefee and likely slightly worse
 574 2017-08-17T15:22:37  <morcos> but as close as it could be wihtout a lot of work given the new internals
 575 2017-08-17T15:22:55  <morcos> got to run
 576 2017-08-17T15:23:13  <jnewbery> webuser232 I happen to think fee estimation might be a good candidate for reinforcement learning, but I'm no expert in AI. Run a bitcoind node for some time to get a good history of transactions/blocks and estimaterawfee should give you good data
 577 2017-08-17T15:26:10  <karelb> hm, that is a bit confusing. We are using the old API in our fee estimates, I hoped we could just upgrade the node without new logic for the new call. OK
 578 2017-08-17T15:26:44  <webuser232> jnewbery, I think it's a good candidate too. I'll investigate further. I've got to run for now. Thanks!
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 581 2017-08-17T15:44:37  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jnewbery opened pull request #11078: [tests] Make p2p-leaktests.py more robust (master...p2p_leaktests_robust) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11078
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 590 2017-08-17T16:11:34  <BlueMatt> grr, does someone have a fucking openbsd box to test build on?
 591 2017-08-17T16:12:16  *** jcorgan has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 592 2017-08-17T16:14:19  <wumpus> yes
 593 2017-08-17T16:15:24  <wumpus> BlueMatt: I have an openbsd 6.1 box to test on - what do you need tested?
 594 2017-08-17T16:19:25  <BlueMatt> wumpus: just looks like there's been a few build errors on openbsd recently (I assume 15rc1 testing) eg #11057
 595 2017-08-17T16:20:11  <wumpus> ooh the gui on opennsd? I don't think anyone even tried that before, certainly not me
 596 2017-08-17T16:23:29  <wumpus> #11057 looks like a conflict between GL driver and libdrm version?
 597 2017-08-17T16:25:23  *** promag has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 598 2017-08-17T16:25:24  <BlueMatt> possibly? I dunno
 599 2017-08-17T16:25:31  <wumpus> nothing we can help in any case
 600 2017-08-17T16:27:53  *** BashCo has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 601 2017-08-17T16:28:16  *** treebeardd has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 602 2017-08-17T16:29:43  <wumpus> building anything on openbsd is difficult, I can't imagine the nightmare of getting the opengl/X/qt stack to work on that
 603 2017-08-17T16:33:20  <BlueMatt> wumpus: have you managed to repro the crashes in bitcoind in #11063?
 604 2017-08-17T16:33:26  <BlueMatt> wasnt there a similar one in test_bitcoin, too?
 605 2017-08-17T16:34:01  <wumpus> haven't tried yet
 606 2017-08-17T16:34:29  <wumpus> last time I ran the tests on openbsd it was all ok, but it's been a few months ago
 607 2017-08-17T16:34:35  <BlueMatt> oh, no, it was in bench
 608 2017-08-17T16:34:42  <BlueMatt> yea, #10801
 609 2017-08-17T16:34:55  <BlueMatt> yea, sounds like openbsd got fucked again :(
 610 2017-08-17T16:35:09  <wumpus> (no, shorter ago, this was around the time the asm changes went in)
 611 2017-08-17T16:35:14  <BlueMatt> wonder where we can find an openbsd dev to contribute :p
 612 2017-08-17T16:36:03  <wumpus> it's funny how gdb is fucked on all BSD
 613 2017-08-17T16:36:24  <BlueMatt> yea :/
 614 2017-08-17T16:36:49  <wumpus> at least on freebsd it's easy (and encouraged) to install a newer one, but the default one is ancient, from 2004
 615 2017-08-17T16:37:33  <wumpus> this means it cannot understand the debug information (DWARF 3) generated by compilers of this decennium
 616 2017-08-17T16:37:36  <BlueMatt> so they're taking the debian approach of keeping people on ancient versions of things :(
 617 2017-08-17T16:37:47  <wumpus> it has some license-related reason
 618 2017-08-17T16:38:34  <wumpus> same reason why the default gcc on openbsd is a patched 4.2, that was the last one before going to GPL3 which is no longer acceptable
 619 2017-08-17T16:38:47  <BlueMatt> lol
 620 2017-08-17T16:38:52  <BlueMatt> man licensing sucks
 621 2017-08-17T16:39:10  <wumpus> would be wiser to go to llvm/clang as that does have a bsd compatible license, FreeBSD did that for many platforms already
 622 2017-08-17T16:39:15  <grubles> yeah i think obsd is completely ditching gcc for clang soon
 623 2017-08-17T16:39:21  <grubles> i think i read that the other day
 624 2017-08-17T16:39:27  <wumpus> finally!
 625 2017-08-17T16:39:55  <grubles> yeah https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=OpenBSD-Default-Clang
 626 2017-08-17T16:40:48  <wumpus> (oh, FreeBSD already switched to clang a while ago, what they're doing now is switching the *linker* to clang's linker)
 627 2017-08-17T16:41:38  <wumpus> probably gdb to lldb
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 630 2017-08-17T16:46:08  <wumpus> 'gmake check' passes on openbsd
 631 2017-08-17T16:47:23  <wumpus> bench also runs succesfully
 632 2017-08-17T16:47:38  <wumpus> (this is with master, not 0.15 branch, but they have hardly diverged)
 633 2017-08-17T16:49:05  *** nickler has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 634 2017-08-17T16:49:35  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11057 | QT5 interface build failed · Issue #11057 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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 636 2017-08-17T17:17:57  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11057 | QT5 interface build failed · Issue #11057 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 637 2017-08-17T17:18:52  <wumpus> gribble: why are you repeating that?
 638 2017-08-17T17:19:12  <sipa> 17:17:57 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11057 | QT5 interface build failed · Issue #11057 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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 641 2017-08-17T17:22:28  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj opened pull request #11080: doc: Update build-openbsd for 6.1 (master...2017_08_openbsd_bump) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11080
 642 2017-08-17T17:28:51  <praxeology> where can I find a spec on how to craft bch transactions? gmaxwell, you said you had/were making a patch?
 643 2017-08-17T17:29:58  <praxeology> Is it just BIP143 + SIGHASH_FORKID = 0x40 ?
 644 2017-08-17T17:30:10  <arubi> and p2pkh\p2sh instead of p2wpkh\p2wpsh
 645 2017-08-17T17:30:59  <arubi> p2wsh*
 646 2017-08-17T17:32:47  <luke-jr> praxeology: it's just Segwit's signature format, with the extra bit set in the sighash flags
 647 2017-08-17T17:33:42  <wumpus> praxeology: this patch adds ALL|ABC support to signrawtransaction: https://github.com/laanwj/bitcoin/commit/22a4c47643203f86e03f4b001e776fcff1fe8d92
 648 2017-08-17T17:34:36  <wumpus> it's not mine, has been floating around for a while - and I guess it's strongly off topic here
 649 2017-08-17T17:35:38  <sipa> i think it's mine :)
 650 2017-08-17T17:36:10  <wumpus> sipa: I wasn't sure whether you wanted credit for it lol
 651 2017-08-17T17:36:47  <praxeology> wumpus: at least I'm not interrupting a meeting this time :p
 652 2017-08-17T17:37:12  <sipa> praxeology: off by 23 minutes
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 654 2017-08-17T17:38:29  <praxeology> ... So if I run core w/ that patch... I can sign my bch over to shapeshift.io for example?
 655 2017-08-17T17:38:55  <wumpus> yes, that works. Do run it with -nolisten -noconnect to avoid bch transactions from getting into your mempool.
 656 2017-08-17T17:39:50  <praxeology> I'll be running it on an airgapped computer
 657 2017-08-17T17:39:52  <wumpus> you can use https://github.com/laanwj/bitcoin-submittx to submit the signed transaction to a list of BCH nodes
 658 2017-08-17T17:41:06  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11063 | bitcoind aborts · Issue #11063 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 659 2017-08-17T17:41:38  <wumpus> so to be clear that patch won't make it generate BCH transactios by default, you need to run signrawtransaction with 'ALL|ABC' as signature type
 660 2017-08-17T17:41:57  <wumpus> gribble: huh?
 661 2017-08-17T17:45:05  <praxeology> alrighty guys... thanks for the help, and the secret private messages so that only I can benefit :p.  I think I have a solid plan now
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 665 2017-08-17T18:00:01  <sipa> *DING*
 666 2017-08-17T18:00:13  <BlueMatt> sipa: you're an hour early
 667 2017-08-17T18:00:17  <wumpus> huuh are you sure you're not an hour early?
 668 2017-08-17T18:00:17  <sipa> oops?
 669 2017-08-17T18:00:53  <sipa> yes, it was the "warning, meeting in one hour!" alarm </whateverhappenspretenditwasintentional>
 670 2017-08-17T18:01:23  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/10801 | bench_bitcoin segfaults · Issue #10801 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 671 2017-08-17T18:01:34  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o sipa
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 674 2017-08-17T18:01:44  *** sipa sets mode: -o sipa
 675 2017-08-17T18:01:53  <sipa> maybe that'll teach gribble
 676 2017-08-17T18:03:29  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11057 | Connection timed out.
 677 2017-08-17T18:15:36  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o wumpus
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 691 2017-08-17T18:56:09  <achow101> wut
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 693 2017-08-17T19:00:03  <BlueMatt> sipa: try again now?
 694 2017-08-17T19:00:14  <wumpus> #startmeeting
 695 2017-08-17T19:00:14  <lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Aug 17 19:00:14 2017 UTC.  The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
 696 2017-08-17T19:00:14  <lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
 697 2017-08-17T19:00:20  <sipa> DUNG
 698 2017-08-17T19:00:31  <achow101> hi
 699 2017-08-17T19:00:41  <Chris_Stewart_5> present
 700 2017-08-17T19:00:43  <jtimon> dong
 701 2017-08-17T19:00:49  <jonasschnelli> hi
 702 2017-08-17T19:00:55  <instagibbs> prezent
 703 2017-08-17T19:00:57  <wumpus> topics?
 704 2017-08-17T19:01:01  <cfields> hi
 705 2017-08-17T19:01:14  <wumpus> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr btcdrak sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101
 706 2017-08-17T19:01:39  <BlueMatt> blockers for review
 707 2017-08-17T19:01:40  <wumpus> let's start with 0.15.0rc1 - have any serious issues been reported?
 708 2017-08-17T19:01:44  <BlueMatt> and that
 709 2017-08-17T19:01:54  <wumpus> #topic 0.15.0
 710 2017-08-17T19:02:08  <BlueMatt> there's the openbsd stuff, but I'm not sure thats really 0.15 per se, more than just openbsd brokenness
 711 2017-08-17T19:02:15  <BlueMatt> there's also the version-reporting thing gmaxwell mentioned
 712 2017-08-17T19:02:17  <cfields> only thing i'm aware of is the version number issue, but that's nothing
 713 2017-08-17T19:02:28  <wumpus> that's just openbsd brittleness, I'm looking at it
 714 2017-08-17T19:02:32  <achow101> there's the duplicate hex in getrawtransaction
 715 2017-08-17T19:02:36  <BlueMatt> plus the new compiler warnings
 716 2017-08-17T19:02:36  <wumpus> cfields: do we have a patch for that?
 717 2017-08-17T19:02:50  <sipa> and the other things marked for 0.15... #11044 #11027
 718 2017-08-17T19:03:09  <cfields> wumpus: i haven't decided on where to fix it yet. Either way I'll PR something today/tomorrow
 719 2017-08-17T19:03:38  <wumpus> cfields: I guess in a hurry we could just revert luke-jr's patch that introduces the problem, for 0.15
 720 2017-08-17T19:04:17  <cfields> wumpus: yes, that was my initial suggestion, but luke-jr isn't a fan
 721 2017-08-17T19:04:28  <jonasschnelli> Can you elaborate on the version number issue (via luke-jr's PR)?
 722 2017-08-17T19:04:37  <wumpus> yes I saw the new compiler warnings, something about signed to unsigned comparison in the wallet version logic
 723 2017-08-17T19:04:41  <wumpus> is that something serious?
 724 2017-08-17T19:05:10  <cfields> jonasschnelli: the version string doesn't show v0.15.0 as it should, but a git commit instead
 725 2017-08-17T19:05:12  <wumpus> src/wallet/wallet.cpp:3668:38: warning: comparison of integers of different signs: 'std::set<long, std::less<long>, std::allocator<long> >::size_type' (aka 'unsigned long') and 'int' [-Wsign-compare]
 726 2017-08-17T19:05:16  <cfields> sec for offending PR
 727 2017-08-17T19:05:30  <sipa> suggestion: have travis (which has a deterministic compiler version) in one of the tests run with -Werror... but not for default builds
 728 2017-08-17T19:05:37  <wumpus> and another one on the same line
 729 2017-08-17T19:05:55  <BlueMatt> sipa: #10923
 730 2017-08-17T19:06:02  <kanzure> hi.
 731 2017-08-17T19:06:09  <wumpus> sipa: yeah, no that we no longer have any annoying warnings such as Wshadow we could do that
 732 2017-08-17T19:06:15  <cfields> jonasschnelli: #7522
 733 2017-08-17T19:06:26  <jonasschnelli> wumpus: isn't that (-WSign-compare) fixed with #11044?
 734 2017-08-17T19:06:38  <sipa> BlueMatt: oops, never read the second part of the title
 735 2017-08-17T19:06:44  <wumpus> jonasschnelli: could be!
 736 2017-08-17T19:06:49  <jonasschnelli> It is. Just checked
 737 2017-08-17T19:06:57  <BlueMatt> sipa: we already have --enable-werror which is an even more limited set of -W's that we error on, but we never enable it on anything
 738 2017-08-17T19:07:10  <BlueMatt> sipa: that pr enables it for thread-safety-analysis and then turns it on on travis-osx
 739 2017-08-17T19:07:14  <cfields> sipa: +1. I think 10923 is a great idea
 740 2017-08-17T19:07:31  <BlueMatt> 10923 is blocked on switching mutexes and sync.h to std, but I think we can just do that (tm)
 741 2017-08-17T19:07:50  <cfields> BlueMatt: not yet :(
 742 2017-08-17T19:08:02  <wumpus> we can just take the travis-werror part
 743 2017-08-17T19:08:17  <wumpus> I don't see how that is strongly related to the thread analysis
 744 2017-08-17T19:08:22  <BlueMatt> true
 745 2017-08-17T19:08:43  <wumpus> switching over mutexes and sync definitely sounds like a post-0.15 thing
 746 2017-08-17T19:08:46  <cfields> yea, we should just go ahead with that and add the thread checking when it's ready
 747 2017-08-17T19:08:47  <BlueMatt> cfields: oh? none of that stuff is used directly in the remaining threadGroup threads
 748 2017-08-17T19:09:06  <BlueMatt> oh, y'all want to turn on -Werror on travis for 15? yea, ok, not that then
 749 2017-08-17T19:09:34  <BlueMatt> anyway, looks like #11044 fixes the warnings, and its already tagged 0.15.0
 750 2017-08-17T19:09:47  <cfields> oh, i thought we were talking about it for master
 751 2017-08-17T19:10:03  <wumpus> the topic is 0.15 so I was assuming we were talking about 0.15
 752 2017-08-17T19:10:11  <jonasschnelli> cfields: I have a correct version string in 0.15.0rc1 (Qt, debug log). What do I miss?
 753 2017-08-17T19:10:14  <wumpus> anyhow, I don't mind, let's enable it for some branch...
 754 2017-08-17T19:10:32  <cfields> BlueMatt: i'll double-check. But I thought we had some outstanding condvars that we couldn't switch yet. Will look after meeting.
 755 2017-08-17T19:10:32  <wumpus> master is what the PRs will be tested against so that makes most sense I suppose
 756 2017-08-17T19:10:58  <BlueMatt> cfields: we do, but they're directly calling boost::condition_variable, not CConditionVariable, I believe
 757 2017-08-17T19:11:00  <gmaxwell> We can turn of travis Werroring if it turns out to be a pain (or even when not if...) but gain advantages from it until then.
 758 2017-08-17T19:11:07  <wumpus> ok: does anything need tagging for 0.15.0?
 759 2017-08-17T19:11:23  <cfields> jonasschnelli: the splash screen, at least, shows the git revision
 760 2017-08-17T19:11:43  <BlueMatt> as for 0.15, I think its jsut the 3 tags + whatever for the version string issue
 761 2017-08-17T19:11:48  <BlueMatt> or, nothing else was brought up
 762 2017-08-17T19:11:54  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11044 | [wallet] Keypool topup cleanups by jnewbery · Pull Request #11044 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 763 2017-08-17T19:11:55  <jonasschnelli> cfields: Ah. I see now.. releases don't have the commit&dirty.. nm
 764 2017-08-17T19:12:20  <wumpus> okay
 765 2017-08-17T19:12:30  <wumpus> #topic high-priority for review
 766 2017-08-17T19:12:52  * BlueMatt puts #10286 on the list
 767 2017-08-17T19:13:14  <wumpus> now that 0.15 is branched, we can start doing this again
 768 2017-08-17T19:13:35  <wumpus> added
 769 2017-08-17T19:13:42  <wumpus> it's lonely https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8
 770 2017-08-17T19:13:48  * jonasschnelli puts Implement BIP159 / #10387  on the list
 771 2017-08-17T19:14:03  <sipa> i'd like to draw some attention to #10785 (serialization improvements)
 772 2017-08-17T19:14:07  <BlueMatt> thats ok, 10286 needs to simmer on master for a month or three, so it is actually a should-go-soon, thing
 773 2017-08-17T19:14:13  <BlueMatt> :p
 774 2017-08-17T19:14:18  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11027 | [RPC] Only return hex field once in getrawtransaction by achow101 · Pull Request #11027 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 775 2017-08-17T19:14:28  <jonasschnelli> sipa: It's on my list.. reviewed most of it and running on my node
 776 2017-08-17T19:14:43  <gmaxwell> lol poor gribble.
 777 2017-08-17T19:14:51  <gmaxwell> (he's way behind)
 778 2017-08-17T19:15:05  *** jimmysong has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 779 2017-08-17T19:15:13  <cfields> I'd like to add #10756 please, as lots of things for 0.16 will build on top of that
 780 2017-08-17T19:15:20  <jonasschnelli> (gribble probably needs to process all the spam first)
 781 2017-08-17T19:15:59  <wumpus> gribble damnit you made me add 11027, which makes no sense as it's already tagged 0.15
 782 2017-08-17T19:16:05  <jonasschnelli> cfields. done
 783 2017-08-17T19:16:09  <cfields> (that's the signals -> interface class switch for message processing)
 784 2017-08-17T19:16:14  <sipa> cfields: ack
 785 2017-08-17T19:16:20  <BlueMatt> yes! 10756!
 786 2017-08-17T19:16:21  <cfields> jonasschnelli: thanks
 787 2017-08-17T19:16:22  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/10923 | Use -Wthread-safety-analysis if available (+ -Werror=[…] if --enable-werror) by practicalswift · Pull Request #10923 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 788 2017-08-17T19:16:51  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o sipa
 789 2017-08-17T19:16:55  * gmaxwell can't breathe
 790 2017-08-17T19:16:57  *** sipa sets mode: +b *!*gribble@unaffiliated/nanotube/bot/gribble
 791 2017-08-17T19:16:57  *** gribble was kicked by sipa (you're useless)
 792 2017-08-17T19:17:00  *** sipa sets mode: -o sipa
 793 2017-08-17T19:17:05  <jtimon> I would suggest #8498 but not sure if it can be high priority
 794 2017-08-17T19:17:08  <BlueMatt> poor gribble
 795 2017-08-17T19:17:15  *** promag has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 796 2017-08-17T19:17:18  <wumpus> aww :)
 797 2017-08-17T19:17:20  <jonasschnelli> :)
 798 2017-08-17T19:17:31  <cfields> haha
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 800 2017-08-17T19:18:33  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/7522 | Bugfix: Only use git for build info if the repository is actually the right one by luke-jr · Pull Request #7522 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 801 2017-08-17T19:18:45  <wumpus> jtimon: added
 802 2017-08-17T19:18:50  <jtimon> cool
 803 2017-08-17T19:18:51  <wumpus> ok, any other topics?
 804 2017-08-17T19:19:42  <jonasschnelli> short topic: adding bench to gitian build package?
 805 2017-08-17T19:19:58  <jonasschnelli> I can PR
 806 2017-08-17T19:19:59  <cfields> wasn't it just explicitly removed? :)
 807 2017-08-17T19:20:06  <jonasschnelli> Yes. At least on Win
 808 2017-08-17T19:20:18  * jonasschnelli searching PR
 809 2017-08-17T19:20:25  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11044 | [wallet] Keypool topup cleanups by jnewbery · Pull Request #11044 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 810 2017-08-17T19:20:32  *** andytoshi has left #bitcoin-core-dev
 811 2017-08-17T19:20:59  <achow101> +
 812 2017-08-17T19:21:05  <jonasschnelli> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7776
 813 2017-08-17T19:21:09  <wumpus> #topic adding bench to gitian build package
 814 2017-08-17T19:21:24  <jonasschnelli> I stumbled over it when wanted to bench sse4
 815 2017-08-17T19:21:26  <wumpus> I removed it because it was useless at the time, bench had only the examle benchmark
 816 2017-08-17T19:21:33  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o sipa
 817 2017-08-17T19:21:36  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11044 | [wallet] Keypool topup cleanups by jnewbery · Pull Request #11044 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 818 2017-08-17T19:21:38  *** sipa sets mode: -o sipa
 819 2017-08-17T19:21:39  <wumpus> but now that bench is actually useful I agree with enabling it for the distributions, for all platforms
 820 2017-08-17T19:21:49  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o sipa
 821 2017-08-17T19:22:23  *** sipa sets mode: -o sipa
 822 2017-08-17T19:22:35  <jonasschnelli> I think its useful now.
 823 2017-08-17T19:22:39  <jonasschnelli> I'll PR that then
 824 2017-08-17T19:22:40  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/10286 | Call wallet notify callbacks in scheduler thread (without cs_main) by TheBlueMatt · Pull Request #10286 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 825 2017-08-17T19:22:51  <jtimon> suggested topic, what do we want to do about configs for different chains? related to issue #9374 and prs #10267 #8994
 826 2017-08-17T19:23:26  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/10387 | Implement BIP159, define and signal NODE_NETWORK_LIMITED (pruned peers) by jonasschnelli · Pull Request #10387 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 827 2017-08-17T19:23:40  *** jtimon has quit IRC
 828 2017-08-17T19:23:48  <wumpus> jonasschnelli: thanks
 829 2017-08-17T19:23:50  *** jtimon has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 830 2017-08-17T19:23:53  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/10785 | Connection reset by peer.
 831 2017-08-17T19:24:01  <sipa> do we want to discuss bip159 more?
 832 2017-08-17T19:24:02  <wumpus> jonasschnelli: no rush, we don't really need it in 0.15 yet
 833 2017-08-17T19:24:21  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/10756 | Connection reset by peer.
 834 2017-08-17T19:24:24  <jonasschnelli> Yes. Certenly not for 0.15
 835 2017-08-17T19:24:47  <luke-jr> sorry, here
 836 2017-08-17T19:24:55  <wumpus> #topic bip159: (NODE_NETWORK_LIMITED service bits)
 837 2017-08-17T19:24:57  <jonasschnelli> last updates on BIP159: threat bits independently, fingerprinting protection
 838 2017-08-17T19:25:06  <luke-jr> ‎[19:03:38] ‎<‎wumpus‎>‎ cfields: I guess in a hurry we could just revert luke-jr's patch that introduces the problem, for 0.15 <-- it fixes other (more real) problems
 839 2017-08-17T19:25:20  <jonasschnelli> The address relay and whole peering maybe needs discussion
 840 2017-08-17T19:25:21  <jonasschnelli> cfields mentioned once some potential issues
 841 2017-08-17T19:25:36  <sipa> so, i'd like to suggest that bip159 only defines 1 bit, corresponding to 144/288 blocks
 842 2017-08-17T19:25:37  <wumpus> luke-jr: ok, well, can you help cfields fixing the problem then?
 843 2017-08-17T19:25:48  <luke-jr> wumpus: yes, already suggested a few ideas
 844 2017-08-17T19:26:09  <sipa> that gets 90% of the benefit I believe (nodes who are already caught up, and want to stay caught up)
 845 2017-08-17T19:26:21  <sipa> without needing to know what other ranges are important
 846 2017-08-17T19:26:24  <cfields> jonasschnelli: yea, i'll jot down my concerns.
 847 2017-08-17T19:26:48  <jonasschnelli> sipa: we could start with that. What's you concerns about definig two bots?
 848 2017-08-17T19:26:50  <jonasschnelli> bits?
 849 2017-08-17T19:27:07  <sipa> jonasschnelli: i'm beginning to think a second bit is just unnecessary for now
 850 2017-08-17T19:27:18  <sipa> and we may be able to make a more informed choice later
 851 2017-08-17T19:27:25  <instagibbs> sipa, prefer the week or day?
 852 2017-08-17T19:27:28  <sipa> day
 853 2017-08-17T19:27:35  <gmaxwell> It's also the case that the second bit doesn't really jive with UTXO sync, so it may just end up totally surpflous within a couple months.
 854 2017-08-17T19:27:46  <jonasschnelli> I think the week usecase can be interesting with SPV (client side)
 855 2017-08-17T19:27:50  <gmaxwell> the 288 matches the current minimum.
 856 2017-08-17T19:28:19  <jonasschnelli> You could run a pruned peer while syncing your phone
 857 2017-08-17T19:28:31  <jonasschnelli> (in an ideal BIP150 world)
 858 2017-08-17T19:28:35  <jonasschnelli> (or via tor)
 859 2017-08-17T19:28:40  <gmaxwell> sure, so long as you don't ever forget to run your wallet once a week. :)
 860 2017-08-17T19:28:40  *** jtimon has quit IRC
 861 2017-08-17T19:28:50  *** jtimon has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 862 2017-08-17T19:28:57  <gmaxwell> you can still do that without the flag however.
 863 2017-08-17T19:29:04  <sipa> the most important benefit is that pruned nodes can and should help with partition resistence of the network, but they currently don't
 864 2017-08-17T19:29:27  <gmaxwell> as any whitepeer would still be able to request anythign we have. (in your BIP150 world that phone would be authenticated, presumably)
 865 2017-08-17T19:29:34  <jonasschnelli> I agree. I think defining only the 288 depth bit is okay. We can define another later.
 866 2017-08-17T19:29:40  <gmaxwell> sipa: well they do a littl.
 867 2017-08-17T19:29:56  <gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: yea, that was my thought. Now quick, slip it into 0.15rc2  _me ducks and runs_
 868 2017-08-17T19:29:59  <jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: good point about the whitepeer, right
 869 2017-08-17T19:30:21  <jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: No 0.15. Sadly
 870 2017-08-17T19:30:47  <sipa> jonasschnelli: i believe gmaxwell may not have been very serious ;)
 871 2017-08-17T19:30:49  <gmaxwell> I'm kidding. :)
 872 2017-08-17T19:31:20  <jonasschnelli> No joking about releases. :)
 873 2017-08-17T19:31:34  <gmaxwell> If we cannot laugh all there is left to do is cry.
 874 2017-08-17T19:31:35  <gmaxwell> :)
 875 2017-08-17T19:32:02  <wumpus> exactly
 876 2017-08-17T19:32:10  * sipa mourns the untimely passing of rc1
 877 2017-08-17T19:32:11  <jonasschnelli> Indeed
 878 2017-08-17T19:32:36  <jonasschnelli> Any other thoughts on dropping the 1'152 dept NODE_NETWORK_LIMITED_HIGH flag?
 879 2017-08-17T19:33:02  <gmaxwell> that gets rid of anything to be debated.
 880 2017-08-17T19:33:36  <jonasschnelli> A single flag was also my original idea.. but we had then discussions and the second one came up. So going back to a single bit is fine for me.
 881 2017-08-17T19:33:44  <wumpus> yes, let's drop it for now
 882 2017-08-17T19:34:08  <wumpus> it's better to continue with something; the bits debate goes on and on :)
 883 2017-08-17T19:34:18  <gmaxwell> smaller changes faster plz.
 884 2017-08-17T19:34:23  <cfields> 3 bits!
 885 2017-08-17T19:34:26  <jonasschnelli> Heh. Right... okay, will update the bip and the PR.
 886 2017-08-17T19:34:31  * jonasschnelli curses cfields 
 887 2017-08-17T19:34:37  <cfields> :)
 888 2017-08-17T19:34:41  <wumpus> cfields: moar!
 889 2017-08-17T19:34:49  *** promag has quit IRC
 890 2017-08-17T19:34:54  <sipa> 3.14 bits!
 891 2017-08-17T19:35:00  <jonasschnelli> hehe
 892 2017-08-17T19:35:01  <gmaxwell> next subject?
 893 2017-08-17T19:35:03  <cfields> sipa: that's just irrational.
 894 2017-08-17T19:35:07  <jnewbery> sipa gmaxwell do you have data about what blocks are requested on the network? Have you shared it anywhere?
 895 2017-08-17T19:35:13  <gmaxwell> damn, I almost saved us from that pun.
 896 2017-08-17T19:35:29  <gmaxwell> jnewbery: we do, we have, I can dig it up again later today.
 897 2017-08-17T19:35:31  <jonasschnelli> jnewbery: sipa has that blocks-requested-chart
 898 2017-08-17T19:35:32  *** jtimon has quit IRC
 899 2017-08-17T19:35:36  <wumpus> #topic what do we want to do about configs for different chains (jtimon)
 900 2017-08-17T19:35:40  <jnewbery> thanks
 901 2017-08-17T19:35:42  *** jtimon has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 902 2017-08-17T19:35:56  <gmaxwell> jtimon: 12:35:36 <@wumpus> #topic what do we want to do about configs for different chains (jtimon)
 903 2017-08-17T19:36:19  <achow101> pr/issue for reference?
 904 2017-08-17T19:36:29  <gmaxwell> there was an overlay config file PR I saw, I like that general idea.
 905 2017-08-17T19:36:34  <wumpus> related to issue #9374 and prs #10267 #8994
 906 2017-08-17T19:36:41  *** Chris_St1 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 907 2017-08-17T19:36:58  *** Chris_Stewart_5 has quit IRC
 908 2017-08-17T19:37:04  <jtimon> sorry, I just fell
 909 2017-08-17T19:37:08  <jtimon> so jnewbery had some suggestions for #8994 https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8994#issuecomment-321355349
 910 2017-08-17T19:37:10  <jtimon> #10267 is slightly related
 911 2017-08-17T19:37:38  <jtimon> and there's the issue #9374
 912 2017-08-17T19:38:21  <BlueMatt> <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/10267 | INew -includeconf argument for including external configuration files by kallewoof · Pull Request #10267 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 913 2017-08-17T19:39:37  <wumpus> not much to discuss from my side really, I think the idea of additional per-chain config files is good
 914 2017-08-17T19:39:42  <sipa> we know but one gribble, and his name is BlueMatt
 915 2017-08-17T19:39:42  <wumpus> need to review the PRs
 916 2017-08-17T19:40:02  <wumpus> also we really need test for initialization order / argument precedence stuff
 917 2017-08-17T19:40:09  *** chjj has quit IRC
 918 2017-08-17T19:40:11  <wumpus> as it becomes more complex with this
 919 2017-08-17T19:40:16  <gmaxwell> The Gribble is dead, long live the Gribble.
 920 2017-08-17T19:40:23  <jtimon> network.conf idea seems good to me, perhaps I could the something similar for /chain.conf, but not sure about jnewbery's suggestion because that would allow them to be used with the mainnet
 921 2017-08-17T19:41:02  <gmaxwell> okay, so comment on PRs?
 922 2017-08-17T19:41:12  <jtimon> well, I guess it can be discussed on the prs, yeah
 923 2017-08-17T19:41:43  <jtimon> just poiting out the 3 things seem related to me
 924 2017-08-17T19:41:53  <wumpus> yes
 925 2017-08-17T19:42:08  <luke-jr> wumpus: bitcoin_rw.conf solves per-chain at the same time, so IMO the approach to take there
 926 2017-08-17T19:42:18  <wumpus> luke-jr: that's a different issue
 927 2017-08-17T19:42:37  <wumpus> luke-jr: let's not blur everything together now jsut because jtimon started off with a whole list...
 928 2017-08-17T19:42:41  <wumpus> any other topics?
 929 2017-08-17T19:43:02  <gmaxwell> yea.. I want to talk about the impersonation issues and comms stuff for a moment.
 930 2017-08-17T19:43:03  <jnewbery> I don't think that #10996 (per network configuration) and #10267 (additional config file) should be held up on #8994 (custom chains)
 931 2017-08-17T19:43:20  <wumpus> jnewbery: no, I don't think so either
 932 2017-08-17T19:43:37  <wumpus> #topic impersonation issues and comms stuff
 933 2017-08-17T19:43:42  <gmaxwell> Kind of OT for the normal material here; but everyone should be aware that the developer of S2X is going around
 934 2017-08-17T19:43:45  <gmaxwell> spreading misinformation about S2X describing it as a harmless "upgrade" to bitcoin, misstating that things like
 935 2017-08-17T19:43:48  <gmaxwell> classic and BU are compatible (though they don't even implement segwit), and not making any mention of the serious
 936 2017-08-17T19:43:51  <gmaxwell> issues like its lack of replay protection, no HF bit, lack of a spec, this is especially bad because there have
 937 2017-08-17T19:43:54  <gmaxwell> been a bunch of efforts to impersonate our project supporting this stuff:
 938 2017-08-17T19:43:57  <gmaxwell> https://twitter.com/bcoreproject/status/897966294083018760 (click internal link for the S2X stuff)
 939 2017-08-17T19:44:00  <gmaxwell> I'm not sure of what to do but it appears to be a widescale effort to misinform people. :(
 940 2017-08-17T19:44:07  <gmaxwell> In the past twitter hasn't done much with people impersonating me, and this is happening on more than twitter.
 941 2017-08-17T19:44:23  <sipa> :(
 942 2017-08-17T19:44:27  *** ekerstein has quit IRC
 943 2017-08-17T19:44:28  <wumpus> yea :/
 944 2017-08-17T19:44:30  <BlueMatt> I'm not sure what can be done about it, sadly, either, aside from everyone spending some time vigorously condemning such blatant fraud and reaching out to corners of the community to point this out
 945 2017-08-17T19:44:47  <gmaxwell> E.g. seen it on reddit and hacker news; and our community links people to https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Segwit_support but then gets trolls responding that its "fake" and "censored by theymos"
 946 2017-08-17T19:44:58  <achow101> for twitter impersonation, you can report it to twitter and they might do something about it
 947 2017-08-17T19:45:07  <luke-jr> maybe a bitcoincore.org blog explicitly rejecting 2X and warning people of the misinformation campaigns?
 948 2017-08-17T19:45:15  <wumpus> right, I'm not sure what recourse there is, fake news everywhere on the internet
 949 2017-08-17T19:45:20  <gmaxwell> achow101: I've heard that several project contributors have; so sure; but I wouldn't expect much.
 950 2017-08-17T19:45:35  <praxeology> gmaxwell: I saw in #bitcoin someone was saying that bitpay was linking to use btc1 https://blog.bitpay.com/bitcore-segwit-activation/  with "bitcore"
 951 2017-08-17T19:45:37  <wumpus> yes certainly report to sites where the impersonation is hosted
 952 2017-08-17T19:45:42  <BlueMatt> luke-jr: if carefully worded, seems fine
 953 2017-08-17T19:45:45  <wumpus> github is quite active with that at least
 954 2017-08-17T19:45:59  <wumpus> twitter usually ignores report unless a lot of people report
 955 2017-08-17T19:46:11  <gmaxwell> Right we may need to each be more outspoken personally, and perhaps organize some project things too.
 956 2017-08-17T19:46:16  <achow101> I like luke-jr's idea. having something explicitly rejecting s2x would be good
 957 2017-08-17T19:46:25  <Murch> I had already reported that account last week, I suggest that others which use twitter do so as well.
 958 2017-08-17T19:46:43  <jtimon> jnewbery: agreed, nor the other way around imo
 959 2017-08-17T19:46:49  * luke-jr notes he personally calls it simply "2X" because he doesn't want to give the impression Segwit is connected to it.
 960 2017-08-17T19:47:42  <gmaxwell> luke-jr: I've used S2X, but yea people are confused thinking 2X = 2MB  not 4MB (8peak) and other crazy stuff.
 961 2017-08-17T19:47:57  <gmaxwell> or thinking that segwit activation means s2x activation.
 962 2017-08-17T19:48:29  <wumpus> luke-jr: yes, I think an explicit post rejecting s2x would be a good idea
 963 2017-08-17T19:48:33  <praxeology> didn't help that the slashdot article was wrong, portraying it bcash vs segwit2x
 964 2017-08-17T19:48:52  <gmaxwell> I looked a week or two ago and there were under two dozen btc1 nodes after excluding VPSes and only something like 60 including. Non-entity on the network.
 965 2017-08-17T19:49:17  <gmaxwell> ironically, BCash seems the more honest and responsible of the two.
 966 2017-08-17T19:49:18  <Murch> gmaxwell: And no development activity since "rc2"
 967 2017-08-17T19:49:24  <achow101> gmaxwell: unfortunately their doing basically a misinformation campaign to get more people to run btc1
 968 2017-08-17T19:49:35  <achow101> e.g. bitpay telling people to use btc1 for segwit
 969 2017-08-17T19:49:43  <BlueMatt> ok, so objections to luke-jr's proposal to put something on bitcoincore.org that simply points out that s2x is unrelated to segwit, and a fork of bitcoin, not a "harmless upgrade"?
 970 2017-08-17T19:49:45  <gmaxwell> In any case, we're not going to solve it here, but I think we each can make little pushes to better inform people.
 971 2017-08-17T19:49:56  <BlueMatt> simple faq/error correction, not political "fuck this thing"
 972 2017-08-17T19:50:16  <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: would depend on the text! someone could propose some, maybe harding.
 973 2017-08-17T19:50:22  <luke-jr> I'll throw up a draft GDoc people can hack at after the meeting?
 974 2017-08-17T19:50:27  <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yes, of course
 975 2017-08-17T19:50:33  <gmaxwell> We can also talk to the bitcoin.org folks in general.
 976 2017-08-17T19:51:01  <gmaxwell> luke-jr: It might be a streach for your approach to get something the rest of the contributors would find super agreeable.
 977 2017-08-17T19:51:19  <praxeology> How close is bitcoin.org w/ the core dev team?  Who runs it?
 978 2017-08-17T19:51:24  <gmaxwell> luke-jr: I think you do well staking out your own more extreme position and adding to the discussion that way, though-- so no offense intended.
 979 2017-08-17T19:51:45  <Chris_St1> maybe bitcoin.org people can throw up a warning about people promoting consensus imcompatible implementations
 980 2017-08-17T19:51:52  <gmaxwell> praxeology: it's run by the bitcoin.org people. They're generally reasonable folks.
 981 2017-08-17T19:51:55  <BlueMatt> praxeology: not at all, but we can at least contact them or open github issues since they do put the source on github
 982 2017-08-17T19:51:57  <cfields> i think it's important that we point out that this isn't some NIH issue or aversion to change, rather a reaction to a fork that has not only ignored what we've learned from the recent split, but even manages to regress from it
 983 2017-08-17T19:51:58  <luke-jr> gmaxwell: maybe someone else can write a draft then?
 984 2017-08-17T19:52:12  <luke-jr> what I wrote so far: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D5wYL8mYTfswE94lzIe1RwdDP_rETpgXSWdkMUcpt1A/edit?usp=sharing
 985 2017-08-17T19:52:15  <sipa> cfields: indeed
 986 2017-08-17T19:52:47  <Murch> BlueMatt: Factual statement that the two are unrelated and perhaps a mention of the lack in replay protection
 987 2017-08-17T19:53:04  <gmaxwell> cfields: yes, indeed, in the few places where he even responded to concerns it was to claim things were non-issues with bcash when they actually were, and when bcash's better decisions were highly protective.
 988 2017-08-17T19:53:30  <BlueMatt> yea, that seems reasonable, just "hey, this is unrelated to Bitcoin Core or Bitcoin, really, they are playing a very, very risky game and most folks dont condone this"
 989 2017-08-17T19:54:04  <gmaxwell> In any case, beyond some factual statement... part of the consequence of having the project itself speak less is that each of us in the community sometimes needs to speak more. Otherwise the vacuum is easily filled with fakes and lies.
 990 2017-08-17T19:54:20  <gmaxwell> I dunno if everyone has seen morcos' blog posts but they've been fantastic.
 991 2017-08-17T19:54:34  <wumpus> gmaxwell: can you link them please?
 992 2017-08-17T19:54:42  <wumpus> (for the sake of the meeting log)
 993 2017-08-17T19:54:48  <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: even just many rather than most (while I don't doubt most is also true, a narrower thing can be said)
 994 2017-08-17T19:54:57  <BlueMatt> fair
 995 2017-08-17T19:55:27  <Murch> BlueMatt: Yeah, Replay Protection might be a bit over the head for the general audience. It should be mentioned though that it is unrelated to and _not supported by Bitcoin Core_.
 996 2017-08-17T19:55:33  <sipa> https://medium.com/@morcos/no2x-bad-governance-model-97b8e521e751 https://medium.com/@morcos/no2x-centralized-services-539e3b1b56c9 https://medium.com/@morcos/no2x-full-nodes-889c20100a8d
 997 2017-08-17T19:55:45  <BlueMatt> yea, ^ those are great!
 998 2017-08-17T19:56:10  <wumpus> #link https://medium.com/@morcos/no2x-bad-governance-model-97b8e521e751
 999 2017-08-17T19:56:17  <wumpus> #link  https://medium.com/@morcos/no2x-centralized-services-539e3b1b56c9
1000 2017-08-17T19:56:18  <luke-jr> some open source projects just do blog aggregation
1001 2017-08-17T19:56:18  <wumpus> #link https://medium.com/@morcos/no2x-full-nodes-889c20100a8d
1002 2017-08-17T19:56:27  <gmaxwell> it's a fine line to walk, to express the gist without seeming like there isn't substance or alternatively dropping people into the weeds.
1003 2017-08-17T19:57:04  <gmaxwell> luke-jr: I'm generally glad that we don't, in that joe-blow who just doesn't get open projects and is looking for an authority won't understand that a blog aggregation isn't an official position.
1004 2017-08-17T19:57:08  <Murch> luke-jr: That's why I'm putting it so carefully: "not supported" is easily true. Stating that there is no Core contributors that do support it, is probably hard to check and easily false.
1005 2017-08-17T19:57:19  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jonasschnelli opened pull request #11081: Add length check for CExtKey deserialization (master...2017/08/fix_cextkey) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11081
1006 2017-08-17T19:57:25  <wumpus> luke-jr: yes, something like https://planet.freedesktop.org/ would be nice, though on the other hand for bitcoin that would result in endless political discussions about who to include and who not
1007 2017-08-17T19:57:38  <gmaxwell> In any case, even if you don't have the energy or skills to write your own statements, if you agree with stuff like morcos' you can still link to it and let others know you support it.
1008 2017-08-17T19:57:48  *** ekerstein has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
1009 2017-08-17T19:57:52  <gmaxwell> luke-jr: aka bitcoin press center.
1010 2017-08-17T19:57:58  <BlueMatt> wumpus: I think we should include Mr Buckethead! I find his points on Brexit to be rather well-informed.
1011 2017-08-17T19:57:59  <luke-jr> :x
1012 2017-08-17T19:58:12  <luke-jr> gmaxwell: some people don't know to follow individual developers, though
1013 2017-08-17T19:58:21  <sipa> BlueMatt: *Lord* Buckethead please
1014 2017-08-17T19:58:30  <wumpus> lol BlueMatt
1015 2017-08-17T19:58:38  <BlueMatt> sipa: oops, sorry
1016 2017-08-17T19:59:02  <Murch> luke-jr: That's why a statement coming from Core would be useful. Especially since Core as an entity doesn't usually have a position.
1017 2017-08-17T19:59:18  <BlueMatt> if folks agree, @bitcoincoreorg could also r/t morcos' blog posts
1018 2017-08-17T19:59:32  <wumpus> @btcdrak
1019 2017-08-17T20:00:03  <wumpus> #endmeeting
1020 2017-08-17T20:00:03  <lightningbot> Meeting ended Thu Aug 17 20:00:03 2017 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
1021 2017-08-17T20:00:03  <lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2017/bitcoin-core-dev.2017-08-17-19.00.html
1022 2017-08-17T20:00:03  <lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2017/bitcoin-core-dev.2017-08-17-19.00.txt
1023 2017-08-17T20:00:03  <lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2017/bitcoin-core-dev.2017-08-17-19.00.log.html
1024 2017-08-17T20:00:13  <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I think it would be good, can be done in a way that it's clearly not project stuff.
1025 2017-08-17T20:00:30  <BlueMatt> yea, i mean just r/t would still show it as a tweet from morcos
1026 2017-08-17T20:00:55  <Murch> BlueMatt: Still would be considered an endorsement
1027 2017-08-17T20:01:04  <BlueMatt> Murch: yes, it would be
1028 2017-08-17T20:01:06  <BlueMatt> thats on purpose
1029 2017-08-17T20:01:12  <BlueMatt> hence my question :)
1030 2017-08-17T20:01:12  <instagibbs> Quote Tweet to make it more obvious :P
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1033 2017-08-17T20:01:34  <luke-jr> not everyone reads Twitter either
1034 2017-08-17T20:01:39  <Murch> I think that the position is pretty broadly held here, but if someone disagrees with it, I'm not sure they'd want to speak up.
1035 2017-08-17T20:01:47  <gmaxwell> Murch: somewhat, and a failure to counter is implicitly an endorcement of things like https://twitter.com/bcoreproject/status/897966294083018760
1036 2017-08-17T20:02:03  <luke-jr> the vaccine to misinformation is truth
1037 2017-08-17T20:02:12  <instagibbs> Merely informing users that it's "not just an upgrade" cannot be controversial to anyone on the project
1038 2017-08-17T20:02:19  <gmaxwell> Murch: well they should, cause otherwise no one is gonna know.
1039 2017-08-17T20:02:28  <Murch> gmaxwell: That needs a response from the actual Bitcoin Core twitter account to condemn it as false flag.
1040 2017-08-17T20:03:13  <jnewbery> Murch - I agree. Have misgivings about "Bitcoin Core" endorsing a personal opinion
1041 2017-08-17T20:03:13  <gmaxwell> yes, we can condemn the impersonation (that isn't the only one, also)
1042 2017-08-17T20:03:15  <Murch> luke-jr: It'll get linked on reddit in no time. And I'm sure that BCT also would get some discussion on something like that.
1043 2017-08-17T20:03:27  <luke-jr> "Of the 25 Bitcoin Core developers who have stated a position on 2X, all of them are opposed."
1044 2017-08-17T20:03:42  <luke-jr> Murch: bitcoincore.org is important IMO
1045 2017-08-17T20:03:46  <Murch> luke-jr: Yeah, that's better.
1046 2017-08-17T20:03:48  <instagibbs> the impersonation is break of ToS
1047 2017-08-17T20:04:07  <luke-jr> so should I junk https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D5wYL8mYTfswE94lzIe1RwdDP_rETpgXSWdkMUcpt1A/edit?usp=sharing ?
1048 2017-08-17T20:04:58  <instagibbs> hmm I need a "company email" to report theft of brand
1049 2017-08-17T20:05:18  <BlueMatt> instagibbs: I just made it up, they'll figure it out that its not a "company", its an organization
1050 2017-08-17T20:05:23  <achow101> instagibbs: it's only impersonation if they don't state that they are a parody account
1051 2017-08-17T20:05:31  <instagibbs> achow101, they do not, at least in profile
1052 2017-08-17T20:05:44  <achow101> so what usually happens is that they put "parody" in the profile somewhere, and no one actually notices that
1053 2017-08-17T20:05:51  <gmaxwell> to be clear, if the S2X posts were "This is a thing we're doing, it's controversial, but we think it's right. Here are the risks and protective steps"  I'd disagree but have little to complain about.   But the burying the risks, describing it as an upgrade,  dovetails perfectly with the troll false flags to pretend that the authors of most of the software they're shipping supports it... it's fra
1054 2017-08-17T20:05:54  <instagibbs> that's fine, but they aren't hence ToS :)
1055 2017-08-17T20:05:57  <gmaxwell> ud.
1056 2017-08-17T20:06:08  <BlueMatt> jnewbery: I'm with gmaxwell, while its always bad to endorse a personal opinion, as far as I know every major and even the vast majority of minor contributors support that view, at which point if you want the org to not endorse it, you should speak up
1057 2017-08-17T20:07:14  <gmaxwell> I think we can make things clear that they're personal opinions.  Yes, it's something thats fraught with problems. But other than the meta issues, is there anyone who actually disagrees with Morcos on the whole whos a regular contributor, much less disagrees with sharing it?  I think the answer is no.
1058 2017-08-17T20:07:40  <luke-jr> I think we're fine endorsing a "personal opinion" in cases where as-far-as-we-know all developers are of the same opinion..
1059 2017-08-17T20:07:49  <gmaxwell> We do have to make a balance, and I think the sucess of the misinformation has been high enough to indicate that we're strking the balance a little too far to one sid.
1060 2017-08-17T20:07:55  <BlueMatt> can also just quote tweet and say like "Some thoughts on 2x, from a major contributor to Bitcoin Core"
1061 2017-08-17T20:08:09  <jnewbery> ok, I'll speak up. I think there's a difference between condemning impersonation and misinformation (which we should definitely do) and endorsing someone's opionion (which is a road I think we shouldn't go down)
1062 2017-08-17T20:08:20  <jnewbery> BlueMatt - I think that's better
1063 2017-08-17T20:08:37  <gmaxwell> luke-jr: well I'm sure we don't all agree with every last detail of morcos' post.. but broadly. certantly the wiki page and 1:1 discussions support that generally.
1064 2017-08-17T20:08:39  <jnewbery> slightly better
1065 2017-08-17T20:08:52  <gmaxwell> yea, I don't think we should endorse it, but increase visiblity of it.
1066 2017-08-17T20:09:03  <praxeology> Maybe there should be discussion or a link to discussion about core's opinion/roadmap on block size increases?
1067 2017-08-17T20:09:10  <gmaxwell> Because otherwise opponents will flood with disinfo, and pay to advertise it, and thats all people will see.
1068 2017-08-17T20:09:18  <BlueMatt> jnewbery: heh, that wasnt my point, I asked if people disagreed with the views stated, not disagreed with the concept of endorsing a personal opion....at some point if everyone agrees its no longer a "personal opinion"
1069 2017-08-17T20:09:26  <instagibbs> praxeology, already on mailing list, fwiw, search for Paul... Sz... whatever :)
1070 2017-08-17T20:10:20  <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I think the objective should be to increase the quality of the public discussion. Getting more people morcos' links would objectively do that, even if there was some disagreement about them, it's even more obviously a win because there doesn't appear to be.
1071 2017-08-17T20:10:48  <BlueMatt> anyway, quoting it and pointing out that its a personal opinion is a lower bar, and ~as effective
1072 2017-08-17T20:10:50  <BlueMatt> so whatever
1073 2017-08-17T20:11:47  <gmaxwell> in any case, I've also heard from several community members that it would help them if we helped shut down some of this misinformation.
1074 2017-08-17T20:11:52  <cfields> jnewbery: agreed. you don't even have to take a position on the matter to call out shadyness. I like to think we'd equally call out a large campaign claiming something stupid like "0.15 solves the scaling issue, update immediately!"
1075 2017-08-17T20:12:13  <gmaxwell> cfields: indeed, and I've done that on prior releases (called out people who overstated their gains)
1076 2017-08-17T20:12:35  <jnewbery> to be clear, I'm not disputing the quality of morcos's posts, and I personally agree with them, but I find the idea of 'Bitcoin Core thinks <x>' objectionable
1077 2017-08-17T20:12:56  <jnewbery> cfields - yes. Absolutely no issue with calling out shadiness
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1079 2017-08-17T20:12:58  <luke-jr> long term I think we should link blogs with only agreement from maybe 2 or 3 devs, but have a clear notice at the top saying "x, y, z agree; a, b, c don't agree; e, f, g think this is interesting, but don't necessarily agree or disagree" :P  this would get info out there better, and make it more obvious that Core is just an open source project, not a formal top-down group
1080 2017-08-17T20:13:05  <gmaxwell> jnewbery: yes, I think we want to avoid that.
1081 2017-08-17T20:13:39  <gmaxwell> jnewbery: but we can pass on some links while saying that they're worth a read without stating it as a position.
1082 2017-08-17T20:14:48  <jnewbery> Perhaps. I'm not going to NACK, and I think I've made my point that we need to be careful with tone
1083 2017-08-17T20:14:56  <gmaxwell> All our efforts to do the right thing don't matter if we let less ethical people bury us.  I don't think we should adopt those techniques, but we do need to act with the full range and power of what we can agree is acceptable.
1084 2017-08-17T20:15:12  <instagibbs> could we also try to get a blue checkmark for the twitter account?
1085 2017-08-17T20:15:32  <instagibbs> (heard it's a PITA)
1086 2017-08-17T20:15:33  <gmaxwell> jnewbery: btcdrak would probably write it, I'll suggest he also consult with you on the presentation. I think your point is perfectly reasonable.
1087 2017-08-17T20:15:34  *** protomar has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
1088 2017-08-17T20:17:35  <praxeology> I disagree with luke's suggested rename to "2X".  Ideally we could get the whole bitcoin/altcoin community to change the name, but its too late now, should just stick w/ what everyone is familiar with
1089 2017-08-17T20:21:27  <wumpus> another openbsd issue I can't reproduce https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11063, seems to work fine here
1090 2017-08-17T20:21:55  <Murch> luke-jr: I've added a suggestion to the bottom of your gdoc.
1091 2017-08-17T20:22:11  *** SopaXorzTaker has quit IRC
1092 2017-08-17T20:22:54  <Murch> BlueMatt: What do you think? https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D5wYL8mYTfswE94lzIe1RwdDP_rETpgXSWdkMUcpt1A/edit
1093 2017-08-17T20:23:44  <BlueMatt> lol, we said non-political statement...."altcoin"
1094 2017-08-17T20:24:34  <Murch> BlueMatt: I've added the sentences below the line
1095 2017-08-17T20:24:45  <BlueMatt> yea, ok, the version below the line is actually a decent start
1096 2017-08-17T20:26:43  <Murch> BlueMatt: Good changes if that is you. ;)
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1098 2017-08-17T20:30:25  <luke-jr> BlueMatt: "altcoin" is objective fact, not political..
1099 2017-08-17T20:30:59  <luke-jr> praxeology: everyone is familiar with "2X"
1100 2017-08-17T20:32:11  <Murch> luke-jr: "Altcoin" is also needlessly polarizing.
1101 2017-08-17T20:33:41  <luke-jr> Murch: I don't see how.
1102 2017-08-17T20:33:47  <BlueMatt> luke-jr: feel free to replace the original text with the stuff below the line
1103 2017-08-17T20:33:58  <luke-jr> Murch: it's a neutral term, I'm not sure how to make it any better
1104 2017-08-17T20:34:09  <BlueMatt> luke-jr: its politically polarizing, whether you intend it to be or not
1105 2017-08-17T20:35:33  <Murch> luke-jr: It's a technical term but often used to disparage other projects. It would just be an unnecessary affront to users that actually like some of those projects.
1106 2017-08-17T20:35:55  <BlueMatt> fork'd https://docs.google.com/document/d/1y6Hsqdg1xBrJY4dFeKP6y05XCceJoVMs0_M_VwKFReM
1107 2017-08-17T20:35:55  * luke-jr wonders how to decide when to accept suggested changes
1108 2017-08-17T20:39:10  <Murch> The google doc has hardforked :p
1109 2017-08-17T20:39:21  * Murch needs to get back to work
1110 2017-08-17T20:41:23  <jnewbery> I've added my suggested wording to the doc (under =====)
1111 2017-08-17T20:42:48  <luke-jr> jnewbery: it seems to fail to address the main misinformation (that they are misrepresenting an altcoin as an upgrade to Bitcoin)
1112 2017-08-17T20:43:04  <luke-jr> (or worse, does so by implying Bitcoin Core is Bitcoin!)
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1115 2017-08-17T20:50:05  <sturles> btc1 calls their node software Bitcoin Core as well.
1116 2017-08-17T20:50:53  <wumpus> great, as if we didn't have enough confusion
1117 2017-08-17T20:51:17  <Murch> as usual with forks, both edit chains live and thrive. ;)
1118 2017-08-17T20:51:27  <Murch> There is some replay attacks going on though ;)
1119 2017-08-17T20:51:38  <wumpus> we should have trademarked the name...
1120 2017-08-17T20:52:06  <Murch> ah, I thought you meant the two google docs
1121 2017-08-17T20:52:11  <luke-jr> wumpus: trademarks don't require registration
1122 2017-08-17T20:52:13  <luke-jr> at least in the US
1123 2017-08-17T20:52:16  <wumpus> impersonating software projects isn't cool
1124 2017-08-17T20:52:30  <luke-jr> (BTW, if anyone wants direct edit/approval access to the GDoc, PM me your GDocs email)
1125 2017-08-17T20:52:45  <wumpus> it's close to what many malware does
1126 2017-08-17T20:53:05  <luke-jr> wumpus: we could probably sue them and win if they're actually doing that, but who wants to deal with the lawyers? :p
1127 2017-08-17T20:53:15  <wumpus> luke-jr: good point...
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1136 2017-08-17T21:40:35  <jimpo> cfields: Is there a reason that the "send rejects" part of SendRejectsAndCheckBanned should be called at the end of ProcessMessages as introduced in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/9720?
1137 2017-08-17T21:41:02  <jimpo> Said otherwise, is it safe to split into SendRejects and separately CheckIfBanned and only call CheckIfBanned there?
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1139 2017-08-17T21:48:57  <BlueMatt> jimpo: the reason is to (try, there are no guarnatees) to get reject messages out to the peer that we're about to disconnect
1140 2017-08-17T21:49:02  <BlueMatt> eg an "I banned you because" message
1141 2017-08-17T21:50:25  <praxeology> Maybe... the people who would be duped into downloading/installing btc1... haven't even/don't/won't install Bitcoin Core in the first place.  So that set of people is probably pretty small, like maybe 0 people?
1142 2017-08-17T21:53:50  <gmaxwell> praxeology: it would be true except they are advertising it as how to upgrade for segwit. Even though 90%+ of the network is already upgraded for segwit.
1143 2017-08-17T21:54:25  <morcos> karelb: re: estimate fee.. emphasis was on _slight_ differences..  I think you should upgrade to use estimatesmartfee, but if you do nothing, i don't think the world will end.  you'll probably be ok
1144 2017-08-17T21:56:37  <karelb> thx. I am already looking forward to it
1145 2017-08-17T21:56:56  <cfields> jimpo: what he said.
1146 2017-08-17T21:57:08  <jimpo> thx
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1148 2017-08-17T21:58:31  <cfields> jimpo: iirc i explained in pretty good detail in the commit message/pr for that change. You might want to have a quick look if you haven't already
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1152 2017-08-17T22:06:41  <jimpo> Thanks, the commit messages are very helpful. I understand why the call was added at the end of ProcessMessages, but why is it called again in SendMessages?
1153 2017-08-17T22:09:30  <karelb> morcos: I asked P2SH.info guy if he wants to update this - https://p2sh.info/dashboard/db/fee-estimation - to include the new estimatesmartfee
1154 2017-08-17T22:09:35  <karelb> I am interested in the graph
1155 2017-08-17T22:10:02  <karelb> on the bottom left you see the various estimators compared
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1157 2017-08-17T22:12:54  <BlueMatt> jimpo: SendMessages is confusingly named, it really should be PeerProcessingTimerFunction
1158 2017-08-17T22:13:11  <BlueMatt> and, eg, block reject messages may be generated async
1159 2017-08-17T22:13:27  <BlueMatt> (and also dos points based on the same blocks)
1160 2017-08-17T22:14:27  <jimpo> OK, thx
1161 2017-08-17T22:15:20  <morcos> Just caught up on backlog, for the record, I was already asked about bitcoincoreorg retweeting or pointing to my medium posts and i was fairly strongly opposed
1162 2017-08-17T22:15:44  <BlueMatt> morcos: even in a "this is someone's view, but its informative" quote?
1163 2017-08-17T22:15:47  <morcos> I agree with jnewbery , I don't think we can all agree on what Core's opinions are, so we should steer very far away from core having opinions
1164 2017-08-17T22:15:57  <morcos> BlueMatt: yes, there is no reason that needs to come from core
1165 2017-08-17T22:16:13  <BlueMatt> morcos: see greg's comments - people are claiming to "be" bitcoin core saying otherwise
1166 2017-08-17T22:16:20  <morcos> you can retweet it (you probably did) and any one else can, but i think the official core communication should stay away from that
1167 2017-08-17T22:16:24  <BlueMatt> i did
1168 2017-08-17T22:17:05  <morcos> i haven't read the text yet about an announcement regarding 2x, but i think that makes a lot more sense to factually let people know what the Core project will be supporting in terms of rules
1169 2017-08-17T22:17:12  <instagibbs> i think there's the two issues: 1) claiming to be core 2) claiming to offer bitcoin upgrades
1170 2017-08-17T22:17:26  <morcos> But again we need to be quite careful with tone, to not judge what others are saying too much
1171 2017-08-17T22:17:46  <gmaxwell> then in our efforts to be so holy we'll suffer failures at the hands of people with no scruples, because when we don't speak they'll speak for us and use our names.
1172 2017-08-17T22:17:53  <morcos> instagibbs: re: upgrades, i think better than disputing their description is to just provide our own factual description
1173 2017-08-17T22:18:13  <morcos> people can individually condemn the "upgrade" nomenclature if they choose
1174 2017-08-17T22:18:30  <morcos> gmaxwell: i'd rather do that than stoop to their level
1175 2017-08-17T22:18:58  <morcos> certainly we can point out that people using similar names are not us and don't represent our views
1176 2017-08-17T22:19:11  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] luke-jr opened pull request #11082: Add new bitcoin_rw.conf file that is used for settings modified by this software itself (master...rwconf) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11082
1177 2017-08-17T22:20:09  <instagibbs> +1
1178 2017-08-17T22:20:32  <gmaxwell> morcos: there aren't just those two choices though.
1179 2017-08-17T22:21:30  <gmaxwell> (also, "here is a really interesting view you should read and consider" is not morally equivilent to /pretending to be us/ or faking that s2x is just an uncontroversial and low risk bitcoin upgrade...)
1180 2017-08-17T22:22:04  <BlueMatt> ^ that
1181 2017-08-17T22:22:28  <BlueMatt> I mean can you seriously claim that almost the entirety of your rather short blog posts is disagreed with by almost any contributor to bitcoin core
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1185 2017-08-17T22:26:06  <gmaxwell> We shouldn't make the mistake of being naieve that thinking that being right is sufficent against opponents who will do whatever it takes.  That doesn't mean that I think we need to stoop to their level in any way.  I think you could potentially extend your argument about speaking for others against writing your post in the first place.
1186 2017-08-17T22:26:28  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] runn1ng closed pull request #10370: [pull request idea] addressindex, spentindex, timestampindex (Bitcore patches) (master...rebase_bitcoin_master) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10370
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1188 2017-08-17T22:26:39  <gmaxwell> Surely even if we do not tweet it, some people will see it and think it speaks for the project.  Not many, nor would it be a reasonable conclusion to jump to.. but some will.
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1190 2017-08-17T22:29:11  <BlueMatt> anyway, so thoughts on the current proposed doc? https://docs.google.com/document/d/1y6Hsqdg1xBrJY4dFeKP6y05XCceJoVMs0_M_VwKFReM/edit
1191 2017-08-17T22:29:14  <BlueMatt> (and the pending edits to it)
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1193 2017-08-17T22:36:37  <morcos> I had one objection, i commented, but overall i think its quite good
1194 2017-08-17T22:37:10  <morcos> gmaxwell: yes its enough of a problem that people might mistake my posts as representing the project, thats why its important for the project to not tweet them
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1196 2017-08-17T22:37:40  <morcos> they don't, i'm glad a lot of you guys like them.. but it would also be fine if you disagreed.
1197 2017-08-17T22:38:24  <gmaxwell> in this climate I hope we'd also consider tweeting it if we didn't agree but thought it was a useful contribution to the discussion.
1198 2017-08-17T22:38:44  <gmaxwell> In any case, lets talk about what the people suggesting this hope to achieve.
1199 2017-08-17T22:39:23  <gmaxwell> I want people to not be getting only the distorted s2x version of the world shoved down their throats, and know that many people have a dissenting view.
1200 2017-08-17T22:40:44  <gmaxwell> And in particular, the people that the users of bitcoin are generally reseting a fair amount of trust to create and maintain the software the network is using, for the most part (or completely though we can't be sure) don't agree with the narative they're being sold.
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1203 2017-08-17T22:49:23  <morcos> I'm going to be mostly afk for rest of today, but will check back in.  I think we should let this proposed blog post sit for a while after we get the wording nailed down and just make sure contributors to the project are ok with it
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1208 2017-08-17T23:20:48  <sipa> Receiving objects: 100% (98150/98150), 83.68 MiB | 3.68 MiB/s, done.
1209 2017-08-17T23:21:13  <sipa> i find it amazing that all of bitcoin core's history, is less than 100 MB
1210 2017-08-17T23:30:08  *** Dyaheon has quit IRC
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