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 20 2017-12-11T00:47:51  <phantomcircuit> running master with txindex=1 i just had an oom crash blocksonly mode dbcache=128
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 27 2017-12-11T00:54:00  <phantomcircuit> im now up to 5GB of resident memory
 28 2017-12-11T00:54:19  <phantomcircuit> something is wrong here i believe
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 32 2017-12-11T01:04:58  <phantomcircuit> yeah there's a memory leak with this configuration
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 49 2017-12-11T03:08:33  <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: on master?
 50 2017-12-11T03:08:44  <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: you want #11824
 51 2017-12-11T03:08:45  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11824 | Block ActivateBestChain to empty validationinterface queue by TheBlueMatt · Pull Request #11824 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 52 2017-12-11T03:08:49  <BlueMatt> should fix it right up for you
 53 2017-12-11T03:09:24  <BlueMatt> (plz review)
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 70 2017-12-11T04:09:30  <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, so what there's just some queue that's being consumed much much slower than produced?
 71 2017-12-11T04:09:41  <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: yes, cause cs_main
 72 2017-12-11T04:13:45  <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, wait it's a queue of shared pointers?
 73 2017-12-11T04:13:53  <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: yes?
 74 2017-12-11T04:14:05  <phantomcircuit> oh to the full CBlock yeah ok so it's the full block staying in memory nvm
 75 2017-12-11T04:14:10  <BlueMatt> yupyup
 76 2017-12-11T04:22:12  * luke-jr peers at our transaction list CSV export not adding up to the right balance
 77 2017-12-11T04:24:48  <sipa> poll: when applying validateaddress to a (known) native witness multisig address, should it (A) not show the keys in it (B) show the keys in it as pubkeys (C) show the keys in it as legacy addresses (like P2SH multisig now) or (D) show the keys in it as native segwit addresses
 78 2017-12-11T04:26:16  <luke-jr> I think B? C and D are ugly.
 79 2017-12-11T04:26:38  <sipa> luke-jr: i agree
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 81 2017-12-11T04:27:26  <sipa> though in the case of B, should be also do that for non-segwit?
 82 2017-12-11T04:27:40  <luke-jr> probably; can it do so compatibly?
 83 2017-12-11T04:28:04  <sipa> yeah, would need to be in a separate key
 84 2017-12-11T04:28:12  <sipa> "pubkeys" instead of "addresses"
 85 2017-12-11T04:28:26  <luke-jr> ah
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 90 2017-12-11T04:58:32  <phantomcircuit> BlueMatt, is promise being used elsewhere?
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117 2017-12-11T07:19:40  <mryandao> hmm, i'm trying to compile an older version of core (v0.7.0rc3), checked out the branch and did a clean, but there's no build instructions :(
118 2017-12-11T07:22:24  <sipa> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/v0.7.0rc3/doc/build-unix.txt
119 2017-12-11T07:23:08  <mryandao> sipa: thanks :)
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126 2017-12-11T08:02:43  <warren> Does anyone use gitian with qemu-kvm instead of lxc?
127 2017-12-11T08:03:04  <warren> MarcoFalke: have you tested your gitian instructions on Fedora 27?  both with qemu-kvm and lxc?
128 2017-12-11T08:03:40  <warren> Does anyone using gitian with qemu-kvm particularly on Ubuntu or Debian?
129 2017-12-11T08:04:30  <Randolf> warren:  You might also ask in the #qemu channel, just in case someone there can be helpful too.  :)
130 2017-12-11T08:04:46  <warren> Randolf: no, this is very gitian and bitcoin specific
131 2017-12-11T08:04:51  <Randolf> Oh, okay.
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133 2017-12-11T08:05:17  <Randolf> I was merely thinking of a potentially wider audience.  :)
134 2017-12-11T08:05:18  <warren> The Bitcoin gitian instructions say to use only lxc but the way I've used it for the past few years is with qemu-kvm instead
135 2017-12-11T08:05:30  <Randolf> Cool!
136 2017-12-11T08:05:39  <Randolf> Having more than one way to do things is always a plus.
137 2017-12-11T08:05:40  <warren> Randolf: the way we qemu or lxc is very different from what most other people are familiar with
138 2017-12-11T08:06:56  <Randolf> I'm familiar with qemu, and have implemented it for various clients (primarily to run MS-Windows on NetBSD hosts), but lxc is something I should probably look into then.
139 2017-12-11T08:07:05  <Randolf> ...and also qemu-kvm.
140 2017-12-11T08:08:10  <warren> qemu-kvm is just hardware accelerated qemu
141 2017-12-11T08:08:28  <warren> using kvm as a hypervisor, I think is the terminology
142 2017-12-11T08:10:27  <warren> http://wtogami.blogspot.com/2013/05/gitian-for-fedora.html  I had been updating tools to make gitian work on Fedora since 2013 ... I used it with qemu-kvm since then.
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144 2017-12-11T08:11:23  <warren> But base-trusty-amd64.qcow2 generated on Fedora 25+ seems to be broken in some way that gets stuck with 100% CPU during qemu startup. If I copy a base-trusty-amd64.qcow2 image generated from Ubuntu onto my Fedora machine then gitian works.
145 2017-12-11T08:11:52  <warren> So curious if MarcoFalke tested the qemu method of gitian
146 2017-12-11T08:12:16  <warren> My packaged python-vm-builder is different than the "pip" method he uses to install it from Ubuntu
147 2017-12-11T08:12:36  <Randolf> Does qcow (as opposed to qcow2) also exhibit the same problematic behaviour?
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150 2017-12-11T08:13:23  <warren> I don't think that's the issue. It's something installed or configured in the image file when it is generated.
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152 2017-12-11T08:14:56  <Randolf> Oh.
153 2017-12-11T08:15:22  <warren> gitian qemu-kvm works just fine if I copy that base image from an Ubuntu machine
154 2017-12-11T08:15:28  <Randolf> (Thanks for the link, by the way.  I've opened it and will read it soon.)
155 2017-12-11T08:15:49  <warren> something is wrong with that tool on Fedora, it worked in Fedora 24 last i know
156 2017-12-11T08:18:37  <warren> I suspect it's grub2 or something not installing in the image file
157 2017-12-11T08:20:26  <TD-Linux> have you tried both efi and bios boot with qemu?
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160 2017-12-11T08:29:37  <warren> it's something in the image file ...
161 2017-12-11T08:29:44  <warren> image copied from Ubuntu works fine
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230 2017-12-11T12:56:52  <Provoostenator> mryandao: there may be some useful hints here too: https://gist.github.com/Sjors/70f14baf1f834f3547bf35553faff610
231 2017-12-11T12:58:13  *** AdilibA has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
232 2017-12-11T12:58:46  <AdilibA> Hi
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235 2017-12-11T13:00:34  <AdilibA> i want to share a scalling solution that i was thinking about it lately
236 2017-12-11T13:00:52  <AdilibA> Is anyone there?
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238 2017-12-11T13:03:45  <AdilibA> The solution i was thinking about is by adding compression work in addition to minning work
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240 2017-12-11T13:04:26  <AdilibA> Add the compression limit is the block size
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244 2017-12-11T13:08:19  <AdilibA> I was searching for a compression that is luck based like mining, and isuggest the decomposition of the data to a permutable list of Superior Highly Composite Numbers.
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249 2017-12-11T13:20:14  <Provoostenator> AdilibA: I think this is more appropriate for e.g. #bitcoin-wizards or the bitcoin-dev mailinglist. Unless you have a proof-of-concept patch ready to go specifically for the Bitcoin Core client (which this channel is about).
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271 2017-12-11T14:14:40  <morcos> adiabat: can you email me or othwerise send me that fee_estimates.dat.  i think it makes sense that happened, but just will take a look to confirm
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286 2017-12-11T14:56:59  <BlueMatt> phantomcircuit: promise? you mean std::promise, or the shared_ptr to the block?
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292 2017-12-11T15:19:27  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] promag opened pull request #11864: wallet: Make fund transaction atomic (master...2017-12-atomic-fundtransaction) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11864
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294 2017-12-11T15:21:28  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 3 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/f60b4ad57912...8ab6c0b09e4e
295 2017-12-11T15:21:29  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 6ba8f30 Gregory Sanders: don't attempt mempool entry for wallet transactions on startup if already in mempool
296 2017-12-11T15:21:30  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 6697a70 Gregory Sanders: add test for unconfirmed balance between restarts
297 2017-12-11T15:21:30  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 8ab6c0b Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #11839: don't attempt mempool entry for wallet transactions on startup if alr…...
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322 2017-12-11T16:27:16  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] promag closed pull request #11865: wallet: Improve ReacceptWalletTransactions performance (master...2017-12-improve-reaccept-wallet-transactions) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11865
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336 2017-12-11T17:05:53  <cluelessperson> I have a serious question.  What are thoughts on seperating the Bitcoin Core wallet and Bitcoin Core node?
337 2017-12-11T17:06:56  <cluelessperson> Reason I suggest it?  1. Layman cannot be trusted/bothered to run their own nodes by default.  2.  I think it will healthily promote SPV development.
338 2017-12-11T17:07:42  <cluelessperson> 3.  When someone uses multiple wallets, as some users do, they have difficulty switching between the wallets and rescanning, which takes a lot of time
339 2017-12-11T17:08:08  <wumpus> isn't there a PR that adds SPV functionality to the wallet?
340 2017-12-11T17:08:27  <wumpus> I don't think bringing this up as a discussion topic yet again is productiv
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342 2017-12-11T17:08:40  <wumpus> it's been discussed zillions of times since 2012 or so
343 2017-12-11T17:09:04  <wumpus> every time the conclusion was that yes, it's desirable, if you want it, work toward it
344 2017-12-11T17:09:14  <cluelessperson> I understand the frustration.  It just keeps coming up for me because I keep getting morons that can't seem to understand how it works in #bitcoin
345 2017-12-11T17:09:25  <wumpus> feel free to work on it
346 2017-12-11T17:09:34  <cluelessperson> I'll do what I can.
347 2017-12-11T17:09:41  <cluelessperson> my skill sets are limited, I'm sorry
348 2017-12-11T17:09:49  <cluelessperson> I ask for broader shoulders
349 2017-12-11T17:09:51  <wumpus> #10794 is jonasschnelli's PR in that direction
350 2017-12-11T17:09:55  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/10794 | Add simple light-client mode (RPC only) by jonasschnelli · Pull Request #10794 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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359 2017-12-11T17:33:30  <Provoostenator> cluelessperson: as for multiple wallets: #10740 and #11383
360 2017-12-11T17:33:32  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/10740 | [wallet] dynamic loading/unloading of wallets by jnewbery · Pull Request #10740 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
361 2017-12-11T17:33:35  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11383 | Basic Multiwallet GUI support by luke-jr · Pull Request #11383 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
362 2017-12-11T17:34:22  <Provoostenator> There's several pull requests that make small steps in this direction, mostly just improving the code quality and separating stuff better.
363 2017-12-11T17:35:26  <cluelessperson> Provoostenator: unfortunately, I'm not a coding expert, and I don't know C++.  I have no power here.
364 2017-12-11T17:35:34  <cluelessperson> I wish I could actually help
365 2017-12-11T17:36:02  <cluelessperson> I'm stuck with documentation and community support. DEVOPs and the like
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367 2017-12-11T17:36:18  <Provoostenator> Well, both can be learned.
368 2017-12-11T17:36:35  <Provoostenator> And these other contributions also help, as they take work off the shoulders of developers.
369 2017-12-11T17:37:55  <Provoostenator> Or you could stalk your friends with C++ skills and manipulate them into becoming interested in Bitcoin, quitting their current job and helping out :-)
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374 2017-12-11T17:59:17  <cluelessperson> Provoostenator: I'm trying but I have no path forward
375 2017-12-11T17:59:42  <cluelessperson> I'm taking college classes, but not sure where this is leading honestly
376 2017-12-11T18:00:09  <alcipir> How long does it take for a seasoned web developer to get into C++?
377 2017-12-11T18:02:24  <Randolf> alcipir:  It probably depends partly on which languages they already know.  For example, if they haven't done anything with Object Oriented Programming, then that will be a learning curve for them too.
378 2017-12-11T18:03:09  <alcipir> Hm, I've been doing object-oriented PHP for years now, although I don't like it as a language
379 2017-12-11T18:03:14  <alcipir> also know a bit of Java and C#
380 2017-12-11T18:03:31  <alcipir> but C++ seems pretty daunting at first, seems like it changes a lot over time
381 2017-12-11T18:04:24  <Randolf> alcipir:  I suspect that the folks in the #c++ channel can probably be very helpful to getting you started based on what you already have a background in.  :)
382 2017-12-11T18:05:27  <Randolf> alcipir:  My suggestion is to learn C++ first, and then learn about programming Bitcoin/blockchain.  The reason is that both have learning curves that are probably better-studied separately.
383 2017-12-11T18:05:39  <alcipir> I see, thanks for the tip :)
384 2017-12-11T18:05:44  <Randolf> You're welcome.
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392 2017-12-11T18:13:28  <Provoostenator> acipir: that's roughly my background as well, although I did dabble in C(++)  15 years ago and worked a lot with ObjectiveC. Here's some book recommendations depending on your background: https://stackoverflow.com/a/388282
393 2017-12-11T18:14:44  <sipa> i think the discussion is getting a bit offtopic
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396 2017-12-11T18:18:59  <alcipir> thanks Provoostenator, and sorry for the offtopic discussion
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399 2017-12-11T18:26:15  <michagogo> Why do we still have a "Pay only the required fee of 1 satoshi/byte" checkbox?
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401 2017-12-11T18:27:28  <michagogo> I mean, now that we have RBF, it's probably not quite as bad as it used to be, but it still seems like it's likely to be misleading
402 2017-12-11T18:28:12  <michagogo> Yeah, it's under the Custom radio button and not under Recommended, but it feels like it's saying that that's okay and has a chance at working
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406 2017-12-11T18:37:43  <wumpus> I don't know, feel free to file a PR to remove it and see if there's interest / pushback
407 2017-12-11T18:38:42  <wumpus> by far most people will simply use the recommended fee (which is the default), and those that don't generally know better what they're doing, so I doubt it matters much
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416 2017-12-11T19:05:34  <gmaxwell> Bluematt: re: transaction delayed bundles:
417 2017-12-11T19:05:34  <gmaxwell> re: for wallet encryption, I think you can just sign the current best batch when each rpc comes in, so you don't need
418 2017-12-11T19:05:37  <gmaxwell> to keep the key around. The downside is that it can't use the fee-estimation at the point of send, but that seems like
419 2017-12-11T19:05:40  <gmaxwell> a small loss.
420 2017-12-11T19:05:42  <gmaxwell> Interface wise, you'll need to return some kind of identifier that the wallet can use to tell you if a payment was made.
421 2017-12-11T19:05:45  <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I don't think there is a reason to make the standard rpcs do this,  just add new ones:  "bundlesend" (works
422 2017-12-11T19:05:48  <gmaxwell> like sendmany, but takes a maximum waittime argument) "bundleabort" (can cancel a transaction using a handle returned
423 2017-12-11T19:05:52  <gmaxwell> by bundlesend) "bundleforce" (forces the current bundle to send now) or something... and a behavior that sends N
424 2017-12-11T19:05:54  <gmaxwell> seconds after the last addition, or when the first timeout is hit.
425 2017-12-11T19:05:57  <gmaxwell> unless it would really be a burden to change the rpc calls their software is making... but I think thats unavoidable
426 2017-12-11T19:06:00  <gmaxwell> since you can't return a txid.
427 2017-12-11T19:06:03  <gmaxwell> For a while I've wanted a standardized signed payment confirmation code, basically a signature with some well known key
428 2017-12-11T19:06:06  <gmaxwell> that says "I promise to pay X btc to address Y", which would be a potential candidate for what gets returned, but
429 2017-12-11T19:06:09  <gmaxwell> perhaps too much scope creep.
430 2017-12-11T19:06:33  <gmaxwell> One thing perhaps to keep in mind is that the names of the RPCs should be short and easy because probably we'd like to make the bundle based method the default and standard method.
431 2017-12-11T19:06:54  <BlueMatt> yes, thats probably scope creep
432 2017-12-11T19:07:10  <BlueMatt> but, generally, I think these could be added quite simply to large benefit of some users
433 2017-12-11T19:07:55  <gmaxwell> One reason some large users have given me for not using their own aggregation (parties easily big enough do implement their own) was that they want txids to give to users that they can immediately look up on block explorers.
434 2017-12-11T19:08:06  <jonasschnelli> wumpus: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11845
435 2017-12-11T19:08:18  <BlueMatt> worth reaching out to people who use bitcoin core's wallet in reasonable volume to ask what they'd want from such an interface
436 2017-12-11T19:08:19  <jonasschnelli> The key links to btcplt.org (Bitcoin Platinum)
437 2017-12-11T19:08:30  <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yea, that really sucks, dunno how to get away from it except for rbf, sadly
438 2017-12-11T19:08:43  <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: with the signed code I just suggested.
439 2017-12-11T19:08:48  <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: an independantly-really-useful project which someone should do is go test what the ux is on wallets when you receive rbf txn
440 2017-12-11T19:08:48  <jonasschnelli> Not sure if we want a key leading to the Bitcoin Platinum project in our repository,... could be missued for advertising?
441 2017-12-11T19:08:55  <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: yes, but block explorers wont support that for...20 years
442 2017-12-11T19:09:17  <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: meh, bc.i had sorta support for bech32 addresses when segwit activated.
443 2017-12-11T19:09:39  <gmaxwell> some kind of signmessage thing wouldn't be a big deal to support, doesn't require a blockchain to back it.
444 2017-12-11T19:09:40  <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: I'm super skeptical, but would love to be proven wrong....
445 2017-12-11T19:09:51  <BlueMatt> true, could signmessage magic
446 2017-12-11T19:09:56  <gmaxwell> I mean, any of us could also put up little dumb js pages for that.
447 2017-12-11T19:10:30  <Provoostenator> jonasschnelli: would it make sense to ask for plain text keys instead of binary ones, so this sort of thing is easier to spot? (regardless of whether this domain matters)
448 2017-12-11T19:10:33  <gmaxwell> It would just be a reciept that a person could save and use to prove to others when their counterparty doesn't make good on a promise to pay.
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450 2017-12-11T19:10:47  <BlueMatt> (obviiously getting wallets to have reasonable ux when receiving rbf txn would be independantly incredibly helpful - how many wallets spend unconfirmed/unconfirmable/conflicting txn if you receive a rbf-bumped tx?)
451 2017-12-11T19:10:53  <jonasschnelli> Provoostenator: no... I don't think so...
452 2017-12-11T19:11:04  <jonasschnelli> Provoostenator: there is always an email (or pretty much always) attached...
453 2017-12-11T19:11:28  <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: true....I suppose if we put up a page for it that may also be sufficient, I guess people dont care *what* block explorer shows it, as long as they can link to one that does
454 2017-12-11T19:11:28  <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: yes and we should keep RBF in mind when doing the batch interface, the batch interface should be specified so that it's okay for it to RBF anything you put through it.
455 2017-12-11T19:11:31  <Provoostenator> Nvm, you can't see the email in a .asc file either; just need to import it to see.
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457 2017-12-11T19:11:53  <BlueMatt> yes
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461 2017-12-11T19:12:21  <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: batch interface's spec should be "will get a payment made of the specified amounts to the specified addresses accomplished eventually"
462 2017-12-11T19:12:23  <BlueMatt> one thing we should do is reach out to "industry" folks regarding potential apis here (batching/whether they'd be happy with a signmessage-equivalent?)
463 2017-12-11T19:12:46  <gmaxwell> well I think they've never thought of these things, so we'd have to propose them.
464 2017-12-11T19:13:28  <BlueMatt> yes, thats my point :p
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467 2017-12-11T19:16:50  <gmaxwell> oh, rpc I missed: bundletxid   takes a bundle handle and tells you the txid it eventually issued.. maybe also if it was confirmed and in what block.
468 2017-12-11T19:18:03  <BlueMatt> well bundletx verbose=X
469 2017-12-11T19:18:31  <gmaxwell> rpcs that return all txn like listtransactions kinda stink.
470 2017-12-11T19:18:56  <BlueMatt> i mean get the tx for the bundle in raw (or hex, or txid) form
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472 2017-12-11T19:19:12  <gmaxwell> ah.
473 2017-12-11T19:19:38  <sipa> is there a need to support multiple bundles simultaneously?
474 2017-12-11T19:19:56  <BlueMatt> little reason not to, but probably not?
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476 2017-12-11T19:20:32  <sipa> my thinking was that there'd just be a single set of output/amount pairs that are in flight
477 2017-12-11T19:20:50  <sipa> and any time you update it, a new transaction is created
478 2017-12-11T19:21:03  <sipa> which is guaranteed to conflict with earlier transactions
479 2017-12-11T19:21:16  <BlueMatt> you mean and not announce them?
480 2017-12-11T19:21:21  <gmaxwell> the guarenteed to conflict will result in suboptimal coin selection.
481 2017-12-11T19:21:26  <BlueMatt> rbf would have to be optional given receiving rbf txn right now sucks
482 2017-12-11T19:21:40  <sipa> gmaxwell: sure
483 2017-12-11T19:21:48  <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I described above creating the tx at RPC not announce time.
484 2017-12-11T19:21:56  <adiabat> related to pre-signing a bunch of txs with increasing fee rates, what if you have incremental locktimes on them?
485 2017-12-11T19:22:06  <gmaxwell> sipa: why bother with a guarentee to conflict, if you give the user no access to the txn itself until announce time?
486 2017-12-11T19:22:10  <BlueMatt> i see no reason to not wait, except for wallet encryption, but I'd prefer to decrypt-at-send-time than at-add-output time, no?
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488 2017-12-11T19:22:19  <adiabat> would it then be possible to have nodes relay the txs even if they're not-yet-minable?
489 2017-12-11T19:22:43  <sipa> gmaxwell: well it would need to conflict at least with broadcasted transactions
490 2017-12-11T19:22:48  <gmaxwell> adiabat: setting locktimes on precreated replacements is the obvious thing to do, suggested every time it has come up.
491 2017-12-11T19:23:08  <adiabat> gmaxwell: ok what's the catch...?
492 2017-12-11T19:23:20  <gmaxwell> adiabat: relaying a non-mingable transaction is an immediate and nasty DOS vector... what value do you see in that?
493 2017-12-11T19:23:26  <BlueMatt> some people dont want to do rbf cause the client-side wallets may handle it like garbage
494 2017-12-11T19:23:29  <sipa> gmaxwell: in my earlier descriptions of this idea there was no separation between creation of the transaction and broadcastng
495 2017-12-11T19:23:50  <gmaxwell> adiabat: there is no catch, if bitcoin core ever does replacement fully I assume it'll presign with locktimes.
496 2017-12-11T19:24:06  <sipa> but it does make sense - you may want to perform multiple updates frequently, but only occasionally issue a new transaction
497 2017-12-11T19:24:12  <adiabat> gmaxwell: value is that wallets can fire-and-forget; DoS is the issue but feels like it could be managed
498 2017-12-11T19:24:27  <Provoostenator> BlueMatt: I suspect that if enough wallets start actually using RBF, other wallets will stop handling them like garbage. It's often a matter of educating UX folks and developers.
499 2017-12-11T19:24:43  <BlueMatt> Provoostenator: agreed, but also a chicken-and-egg issue there
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501 2017-12-11T19:25:02  <gmaxwell> adiabat: best of luck with that.
502 2017-12-11T19:25:21  <BlueMatt> sipa: wait, how do you propose it working if you create a new tx every time you add an output and broadcast immediately and *dont* use rbf?
503 2017-12-11T19:25:24  <adiabat> gmaxwell: heh :)  Yeah it's hard to not get banned
504 2017-12-11T19:25:35  <BlueMatt> (hell, even with rbf you have lots of annoying corner-cases)
505 2017-12-11T19:25:40  <sipa> BlueMatt: of course it would RBF
506 2017-12-11T19:25:49  <BlueMatt> sipa: the whole point was to make rbf optional..........
507 2017-12-11T19:26:01  <sipa> maybe we're talking about something unrelated then :)
508 2017-12-11T19:26:04  <BlueMatt> see discussion above...
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510 2017-12-11T19:26:21  <BlueMatt> a tx bundle api would have to have rbf be optional
511 2017-12-11T19:26:28  <sipa> meh
512 2017-12-11T19:26:34  <gmaxwell> sipa: the point of this discussion was to enable parties to sendmany.
513 2017-12-11T19:26:36  <BlueMatt> if you have rbf on you can get instant-sends that just get replaced, but no one (right now) would use it if its only rbf
514 2017-12-11T19:26:56  <gmaxwell> Right now too many people use txid as an effective unique key for a payment.. you utterly break stuff by rbfing.
515 2017-12-11T19:26:59  <BlueMatt> sipa: feel free to go help user-level wallets fix their rbf-receive ux
516 2017-12-11T19:27:12  <sipa> fair
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518 2017-12-11T19:27:46  <BlueMatt> rbf appears to work pretty sell *sending* to services, but a service sending rbf to a user-side wallet....bad ux
519 2017-12-11T19:27:48  <sipa> i guess i was thinking about a longer term thing for when RBFing is not an issue anymore, and people have stopped relying on txids for unconfirmed transactions
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521 2017-12-11T19:28:03  <BlueMatt> no, I'm talking about building an api now...not something no one will use
522 2017-12-11T19:28:11  <sipa> okay, ignore e
523 2017-12-11T19:28:22  <adiabat> gmaxwell: apologies if off-topic or already discussed- what if policy was accept future locktimed tx but only if it's a fee bump of existing mempool tx?
524 2017-12-11T19:28:51  <BlueMatt> adiabat: doesnt ln have like a model where folks run servers which auto-broadcast in the future? just piggy back on them
525 2017-12-11T19:28:57  <BlueMatt> no need to relay it in bitcoin p2p net?
526 2017-12-11T19:29:12  <adiabat> yup, asking because I'm working on similar stuff
527 2017-12-11T19:29:30  <adiabat> Hmm... OK so maybe code LN stuff to accept not-yet-OK RBF txs instead?
528 2017-12-11T19:29:55  <sipa> accepting things into your mempool which can't confirm soon undermines its DoS protection
529 2017-12-11T19:30:10  <gmaxwell> adiabat: that gives an attacker zero-cost n-fold inflation node node bandwidth/cpu/memory... (make the initial one enough to confirm right away, make N bumps)
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531 2017-12-11T19:30:21  <BlueMatt> yea, I mean I'd strongly suggest if you're gonna run a network of servers/users providing services to montior and announce txn later to add an option to broadcast *anything* later
532 2017-12-11T19:30:22  <sipa> as we rely on assuming that everything in the mempool will eventually be either confirmed or replaced with something paying a higher fee
533 2017-12-11T19:30:29  <BlueMatt> then its a generic service
534 2017-12-11T19:30:32  <adiabat> right, for small N might be doable if nodes opt-in
535 2017-12-11T19:30:35  <Provoostenator> BlueMatt: good point to distinguish between "merchant" services and consumer wallets when it comes to RBF. Although I think it's very useful for sending money between people who reasonable trust eachother; "let me know if you need me to bump this"
536 2017-12-11T19:30:49  <gmaxwell> adiabat: I think it's not reasonable to have every node in the general p2p network handling this,  why not just have special transaction queue nodes that will handle this?
537 2017-12-11T19:31:14  <BlueMatt> Provoostenator: well my concern is ux for average users...if I'm sending to someone I know understands bitcoin, fine, no issue, if its some guy who's receiving a withdraw from an atm/their exchange, they may be very confused
538 2017-12-11T19:31:23  <adiabat> gmaxwell: I agree; I'm mainly thinking about the logistics of different nodes / codebases
539 2017-12-11T19:31:52  <gmaxwell> there is no need for 100,000 nodes to queue up txn that will likely never confirm.... just having a couple handle it would be sufficient.
540 2017-12-11T19:32:04  <adiabat> easy enough to have a website which says "give your future-dated RBF txs" and has a captcha or something
541 2017-12-11T19:32:46  <BlueMatt> or add it to ln nodes? dont they have some ability to do similar things?
542 2017-12-11T19:33:00  <BlueMatt> might as well let them do it for any txn with payment of 5 satoshis over ln or so?
543 2017-12-11T19:33:10  <adiabat> right now LN nodes don't have actual tx storage for other nodes
544 2017-12-11T19:33:20  <adiabat> but it's something that could be added
545 2017-12-11T19:33:45  <adiabat> I have been looking at bumping fees for funding channels and it's a little tricky due to multisig / multiple parties
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548 2017-12-11T19:35:24  <Provoostenator> BlueMatt: what's the implication of that for #11605? In particular, wouldn't that make the case for not making RBF a default in RPC, because we don't want every ATM out there to start using this just yet?
549 2017-12-11T19:35:28  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11605 | [Wallet] Enable RBF by default in QT by Sjors · Pull Request #11605 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
550 2017-12-11T19:35:35  <Provoostenator> (every ATM that uses the Core wallet)
551 2017-12-11T19:35:58  <gmaxwell> Provoostenator: hm? there is no problem signaling RBF if you don't make use of it.
552 2017-12-11T19:36:03  <gmaxwell> The problems arise when you make use of it.
553 2017-12-11T19:36:07  <BlueMatt> Provoostenator: I mean that would be my thought, which is what I put in that pr anyway, but worth asking morcos and jnewbery since they objected?
554 2017-12-11T19:36:15  <BlueMatt> yea, ok, that too, if you dont use it it doesnt matter
555 2017-12-11T19:36:18  <gmaxwell> The issue for the batching thing is that if it used RBF it would immeidately make use of it.
556 2017-12-11T19:36:19  <Provoostenator> Ok, that's a good point. Wallets indeed suck even more at that.
557 2017-12-11T19:36:39  <Provoostenator> They complain it's a double spend, might even mess up the balance.
558 2017-12-11T19:36:59  <gmaxwell> though on reflection even if your batching thing can RBF, it shouldn't do so eagerly, since it'll pay high fees since the bumps have to increase fees.
559 2017-12-11T19:37:29  <BlueMatt> yes, exactly, batching rbf isnt quite supported by the current restrictions on rbf...maybe be worth exploring reducing those restrictions if people have a desire for it
560 2017-12-11T19:37:31  <gmaxwell> but still, flagging rbf is pretty much harmless, I believe electrum does this by default already without incident...
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562 2017-12-11T19:38:05  <gmaxwell> BlueMatt: I dunno, if anything current RBF restrictions are too lax because mempool minfee is unrealistically low.
563 2017-12-11T19:39:07  <BlueMatt> yea, well possibly minfee needs to be higher with the incremental/relay fee lower for rbf? dunno, worth exploring
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565 2017-12-11T19:40:25  <Provoostenator> Do we have an estimate of how often fee increases are used in the wild currently? I find it useless in both GreenWallet and QT, because it doesn't let you pick your own amount, and the cheapest option is usually much too expensive.
566 2017-12-11T19:40:55  *** dcousens has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
567 2017-12-11T19:41:01  <Provoostenator> Like I make a tx with a €0.50 fee and it says the minimum for a fee bump is €25.
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569 2017-12-11T19:41:22  <BlueMatt> that....doesnt sound right
570 2017-12-11T19:41:47  <BlueMatt> oh, yea, greenaddress' feebump is really annoying
571 2017-12-11T19:41:50  <gmaxwell> for greenaddress IIRC it only currently supports one bump, so it only offers it at whatever the shortest fee estimate is.
572 2017-12-11T19:41:50  <Provoostenator> I had to use some AngularJS javascript console voodoo to make GreenWallet behave. And with Core I already have a TODO to improve this.
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575 2017-12-11T19:42:06  <BlueMatt> gmaxwell: no, it offers several, but they're all relatively short
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577 2017-12-11T19:43:01  <Provoostenator> https://twitter.com/Provoost/status/925245638379483137
578 2017-12-11T19:43:41  <gmaxwell> Provoostenator: the bumpfee in bitcoin core however lets you set whatever target you want AFAIR.
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580 2017-12-11T19:44:09  <Provoostenator> gmaxwell: correct, so my TODO is about allow the UI to do the same. Probably by reusing the send screen, hiding all elements except the fee selection.
581 2017-12-11T19:44:32  <Provoostenator> (and enforcing the correct minimum, etc)
582 2017-12-11T19:44:39  <gmaxwell> you might want to also do something to handle the minim..right
583 2017-12-11T19:44:40  <adiabat> bitcoin-qt bump fee only gives you one option though; cli lets you set whatever you want
584 2017-12-11T19:44:58  <gmaxwell> I'd forgotten we had anything in the GUI yet.
585 2017-12-11T19:45:15  <adiabat> you can right click on txs and there's an "increase fee" option
586 2017-12-11T19:45:16  <Provoostenator> I'm trying to Make QT Great Again :-)
587 2017-12-11T19:45:21  <gmaxwell> it's still relatively useless due to not being able to change the input set.
588 2017-12-11T19:45:23  <adiabat> brings up a modal with OK / cancel
589 2017-12-11T19:47:10  <Provoostenator> Yes, that's the other contraint I suppose. I guess the max fee is constrained by the amount of change for the original tx?
590 2017-12-11T19:48:13  <Provoostenator> I'm not going to mess with coin selection, but for RBF, it might make sense to try and overshoot by the worst case fee, if there is an input available.
591 2017-12-11T19:50:47  <gmaxwell> uhg. no... the correct thing to do is to just drop the same-inputs restriction.
592 2017-12-11T19:51:16  <gmaxwell> it was just done that way to make it faster to implement, but it's a bad restriction.
593 2017-12-11T19:51:20  <Provoostenator> That does sound cleaner. Is that restriction part of the BIP?
594 2017-12-11T19:51:25  <gmaxwell> absolutely not
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597 2017-12-11T19:52:01  <Provoostenator> Ok, so the first step there would be to change bumpfee RPC to let go of same-input?
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602 2017-12-11T19:52:51  <Provoostenator> But somehow track what you've used, because I assuem there has to be overlap in inputs.
603 2017-12-11T19:52:58  <Provoostenator> (between all versions)
604 2017-12-11T19:53:00  <gmaxwell> Probably easiest to let it add additional inputs, this requires plumbing through mandatory inputs to the coin selection logic.
605 2017-12-11T19:53:40  <gmaxwell> technically they merely needs to be an overlap. But it's simpler to superset and I think hardly worse.
606 2017-12-11T19:53:50  <gmaxwell> Supersetting is better for privacy.
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609 2017-12-11T19:56:44  <Provoostenator> And the wallet keeps all previous versions around and knows which ones they are? (doesn't matter in the superset case)
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611 2017-12-11T19:57:41  <gmaxwell> Thats why the superset case is easier to implement.
612 2017-12-11T19:57:48  <Provoostenator> Supersetting in combination with my idea above of overshooting the initial selection?
613 2017-12-11T19:58:25  <Provoostenator> (though that can always be done later)
614 2017-12-11T19:59:14  <gmaxwell> there is no reason to overshoot the initial.
615 2017-12-11T19:59:57  <gmaxwell> we should be trying to avoid producing dusty change (e.g. change in value comparible to fees)
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618 2017-12-11T20:00:55  <Provoostenator> My rational was to make bumping cheaper in the super set scenario, because you don't need to add an extra input. But I see your point about creating dust.
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620 2017-12-11T20:02:04  <gmaxwell> well you'll pay the fees for that extra input eventually, so it's not that bad to add it.
621 2017-12-11T20:02:23  <gmaxwell> the cost of the extra input is just the difference in the feerate between now and when you might use it later.
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625 2017-12-11T20:11:14  <luke-jr> gmaxwell: but you need to cover the cost of the data/weight for the first tx as well?
626 2017-12-11T20:11:32  <luke-jr> not sure it matters much in practice I guess
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630 2017-12-11T20:17:10  <Provoostenator> Probably not when fees are at a level where you actually need RBF.
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632 2017-12-11T20:17:54  <Provoostenator> At what point would you expect most node operators to increase the minimum relay fee?
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634 2017-12-11T20:23:01  <gmaxwell> Provoostenator: we don't expect anyone to increase the minimum relay fee, we expect it to increase automatically.
635 2017-12-11T20:23:27  <gmaxwell> unfortunately it's not, seemingly because the mempool is too big.
636 2017-12-11T20:25:56  <sipa> Provoostenator: do you mean the minimum relay fee (the fee needed to get into the mempool at all) or the discard rate (the fee increment needed for replacing) ?
637 2017-12-11T20:26:25  <sipa> the first is controlled by the mempool limiting; the second is just a configurable constant
638 2017-12-11T20:26:37  <sipa> (luke-jr was talking about the second)
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641 2017-12-11T20:40:46  <morcos> gmaxwell: it got quite high before the weekend, i think 40 sat/B
642 2017-12-11T20:42:02  <morcos> is there any reason that resendwallettransactions needs to be a hidden RPC only used for testing?
643 2017-12-11T20:42:23  <morcos> doesn't it seem kind of useful to be able to fully create and locally accept transactions, but not broadcast them until ready
644 2017-12-11T20:42:59  <morcos> is it just a privacy concern?
645 2017-12-11T20:43:44  <morcos> this is partly in response to the ongoing discussion in #10247 right now
646 2017-12-11T20:43:46  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/10247 | cost too many fees? · Issue #10247 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
647 2017-12-11T20:43:55  <gmaxwell> you mean turn off wallet broadcast and trigger broadcasting yourself?
648 2017-12-11T20:44:25  <morcos> yeah exactly
649 2017-12-11T20:44:31  <gmaxwell> we probably need to add a flag in the wallet to track if unconfirmed txn has been seen in the mempool, and show it in the GUI,  to avoid users footgunning by never broadcasting.
650 2017-12-11T20:44:49  <gmaxwell> but I think it's fine, personally I always run with broadcasting off.
651 2017-12-11T20:45:20  <instagibbs> do you just sendraw when ready?
652 2017-12-11T20:45:41  <morcos> ah, i suppose sendraw accomplish what i wanted to suggest pretty well
653 2017-12-11T20:47:46  <phantomcircuit> personally i disable internet when i want to do that...
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656 2017-12-11T21:07:09  * luke-jr wonders why the GUI is blocked until rescan finishes
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692 2017-12-11T21:50:52  <jb55> morcos: I'm about to remove the InMempool() check from AbandonTransaction on my local node, is there any good reason why that's there?
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700 2017-12-11T21:52:39  <sipa> jb55: if your own node has it in its mempool, it's very likely other nodes do too, in which case the effect won't accomplish much
701 2017-12-11T21:53:00  <sipa> you could try to double-spend the transaction, but it may not get relayed by other nodes, for example
702 2017-12-11T21:53:09  <jb55> I've just had a tx that's been around for a month and it looks like my node keeps rebroadcasting it?
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707 2017-12-11T21:56:03  <jtimon> MarcoFalke: what needs to be done for https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/8994/commits/52f6f43968595a769b109b9b6987ab03275c4a9d#r153922809 ?
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728 2017-12-11T21:56:33  <jtimon> I kind of missed that whole discussion
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734 2017-12-11T22:02:46  <jb55> sipa: wouldn't it stay in the mempool if it keeps rebroadcasting it? here's my logs https://jb55.com/s/42dd917b1b1b4b05.txt
735 2017-12-11T22:03:55  <jb55> I guess I'll just double spend it
736 2017-12-11T22:10:20  <jb55> would be nice if there was some way to tell my node to stop broadcasting it, I though that's what abandon would do but I can't abandon because it keeps getting rebroadcasted and stays in my local mempool! Unless I'm confused about something.
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741 2017-12-11T22:16:36  <sipa> jb55: ah, yes agree wth that
742 2017-12-11T22:19:21  <sipa> not quite abandoning, but at least stoo broadcasting
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761 2017-12-11T23:06:04  <gmaxwell> I agree that stop broadcasting would be reasonable, however I also don't think it'll be very useful:  the recieving side will also rebroadcast, and so will random nodes on the network
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763 2017-12-11T23:06:50  <gmaxwell> probably when we add a "I've seen this in a mempool before" flag on wtx we should add a "I should keep trying to rebroadcast"  and have abort set that to false.
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766 2017-12-11T23:23:47  <tomdickharry> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2569202.0
767 2017-12-11T23:23:56  <tomdickharry> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2569202.0
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773 2017-12-11T23:38:35  <jb55> gmaxwell: well the case I was referring to was specifically ResendWalletTransactions, which only applys to transactions in your own node. It didn't stop rebroadcasting (for a month) until I passed in walletbroadcast=0 which seems a bit overkill
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776 2017-12-11T23:44:22  <gmaxwell> jb55: I know, my point was that even if _you_ stop, the reciever will keep going, as will random people on the network who rebroadcast other people's transactions for unclear reasons.
777 2017-12-11T23:44:45  <gmaxwell> I think it's reasonable to have a way to stop, but at the same time don't expect it to be very useful.
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