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782018-03-22T03:52:33 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] eklitzke closed pull request #12649: Add documentation about generating flame graphs. (master...flamegraphs) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12649
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922018-03-22T05:09:46 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Empact closed pull request #12745: Expose node relay fee settings in help, independent of -help-debug (master...expose-relay-fee-settings-help) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12745
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1722018-03-22T08:10:07 <koichirose> hello! what could be the reason for 0.16 to always return legacy addresses, even with 'getnewaddress ââ p2sh-segwitâ?
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1782018-03-22T09:00:39 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/e0f7515f5500...ad823178e85a
1792018-03-22T09:00:39 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master bcab47b Kevin Pan: use base58 map instead of strchr()
1802018-03-22T09:00:40 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master ad82317 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #12704: base58: use map instead of strchr() when decode...
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1822018-03-22T09:01:24 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #12704: base58: use map instead of strchr() when decode (master...b58_bitmap) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12704
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1912018-03-22T09:32:23 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 4 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/ad823178e85a...185d48473e43
1922018-03-22T09:32:24 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 0ec08a6 John Newbery: [Tests] Move assert_start_raises_init_error method to TestNode
1932018-03-22T09:32:24 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 5812273 John Newbery: [Tests] Require exact match in assert_start_raises_init_eror()
1942018-03-22T09:32:25 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fae1374 MarcoFalke: qa: Allow for partial_match when checking init error...
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1962018-03-22T09:33:08 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #12718: [Tests] Require exact match in assert_start_raises_init_eror (jnewbery) (master...Mf1803-qaRegexInitError) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12718
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2052018-03-22T10:12:04 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/185d48473e43...6d36f599f88e
2062018-03-22T10:12:05 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master c8330d4 MarcoFalke: qa: Use node.datadir instead of tmpdir in test framework
2072018-03-22T10:12:05 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 6d36f59 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #12076: qa: Use node.datadir instead of tmpdir in test framework...
2082018-03-22T10:12:36 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #12076: qa: Use node.datadir instead of tmpdir in test framework (master...Mf1801-qaUseUtilDatadir) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12076
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2102018-03-22T10:26:38 <wumpus> jnewbery: done
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2262018-03-22T11:35:06 <timothy> is it normal that verificationprogress in getblockchaininfo are never 1?
2272018-03-22T11:35:13 <timothy> when blockchain in synched too
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2632018-03-22T13:29:04 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 3 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/6d36f599f88e...a6926b065d65
2642018-03-22T13:29:05 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 1e0ee90 Martin Ankerl: Use best-fit strategy in Arena, now O(log(n)) instead O(n)...
2652018-03-22T13:29:06 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 5fbf7c4 Martin Ankerl: fix nits: variable naming, typos
2662018-03-22T13:29:06 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master a6926b0 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #12048: Use best-fit strategy in Arena, now O(log(n)) instead O(n)...
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2692018-03-22T13:29:35 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #12048: Use best-fit strategy in Arena, now O(log(n)) instead O(n) (master...faster_arena) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12048
2702018-03-22T13:32:09 <eklitzke> timothy: it's normal, it uses a heuristic to guess what the current tip is as a floating point height
2712018-03-22T13:33:05 <timothy> eklitzke: so it's better to use something like bitcoin-cli getblockchaininfo | jq ".blocks == .headers" ?
2722018-03-22T13:33:25 <timothy> to know when it's synched
2732018-03-22T13:33:39 <eklitzke> i just check if progress is > 0.9999 but that seems reasonable to me too
2742018-03-22T13:36:48 <echeveria> probably no reason to not expose isInitalBlockDownload there.
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2772018-03-22T13:53:12 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jnewbery opened pull request #12755: [tests] Better stderr testing (master...better_stderr_testing) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12755
2782018-03-22T13:54:05 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jnewbery closed pull request #12379: [WIP] Better stderr testing in functional tests (master...test_full_stderr2) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12379
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2862018-03-22T14:15:25 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/a6926b065d65...c290508a5ebf
2872018-03-22T14:15:25 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 8674e74 murrayn: Provide relevant error message if datadir is not writable.
2882018-03-22T14:15:26 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master c290508 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #12630: Provide useful error message if datadir is not writable....
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2902018-03-22T14:16:07 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #12630: Provide useful error message if datadir is not writable. (master...datadir_writable) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12630
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2962018-03-22T14:32:01 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jnewbery opened pull request #12756: [config] Remove blockmaxsize option (master...remove_blockmaxsize) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12756
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2992018-03-22T14:53:12 <instagibbs> wumpus, #12742 looks ready
3002018-03-22T14:53:15 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/12742 | Make FastRandomContext support standard C++11 RNG interface by sipa · Pull Request #12742 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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3132018-03-22T15:30:37 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] practicalswift opened pull request #12757: Clarify include guard naming convention (master...include-guard) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12757
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3292018-03-22T16:23:44 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/c290508a5ebf...f686002a8eba
3302018-03-22T16:23:45 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 1ec1602 Pieter Wuille: Make FastRandomContext support standard C++11 RNG interface...
3312018-03-22T16:23:45 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master f686002 MarcoFalke: Merge #12742: Make FastRandomContext support standard C++11 RNG interface...
3322018-03-22T16:24:26 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #12742: Make FastRandomContext support standard C++11 RNG interface (master...201803_stdrandom) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12742
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3482018-03-22T18:11:22 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] eklitzke opened pull request #12759: [Docs] Improve formatting of developer notes (master...developer-notes) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12759
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3532018-03-22T18:24:17 <Randolf> I was looking at the FAQ at the Bitcoin.org web site, and I didn't find any mention of Segregated Witness nor the Lightning Network. I'm wondering if an entry should be added? https://bitcoin.org/en/faq#transactions
3542018-03-22T18:25:27 <Randolf> The reason I ask about this is that I've seen questions in the #bitcoin channel and in other forums about this, and it seems that there is confusion regarding it.
3552018-03-22T18:26:20 *** timothy has quit IRC
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3572018-03-22T18:29:49 <sipa> Randolf: i'm sure they value contributions
3582018-03-22T18:30:20 *** provoostenator has quit IRC
3592018-03-22T18:31:02 <Randolf> sipa: Is bitcoin.org's content not part of overall project?
3602018-03-22T18:31:06 <BlueMatt> I believe bitcoin.org has gone mostly unmaintained for the past few months, so segwit stuff never landed before folks stopped working
3612018-03-22T18:31:53 <Randolf> A few months is not a big deal to me. I'd be happy to write something up for the FAQ.
3622018-03-22T18:32:09 <sipa> Randolf: no, it's a site privately run website
3632018-03-22T18:32:12 <Randolf> I just need to know a bit more about the Lightning Network support before I do that.
3642018-03-22T18:32:13 *** Emcy has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
3652018-03-22T18:32:37 <sipa> Randolf: the project's website is bitcoincore.org
3662018-03-22T18:32:42 <Randolf> sipa: I know that Bitcoin.com is privately owned and operated by a BCash fanatic. I was always under the impression that Bitcoin.org was the good one.
3672018-03-22T18:33:01 <Randolf> Yeah, I know that BitcoinCore.org is part of the development side of things.
3682018-03-22T18:33:26 <BlueMatt> no, bitcoin.org is *also* a privately-run website
3692018-03-22T18:33:54 <BlueMatt> I mean it doesnt deliberately try to confuse people as to the bcash-v-bitcoin thing, so its better in that regard, sure
3702018-03-22T18:33:59 <BlueMatt> but similar setup
3712018-03-22T18:34:17 <BlueMatt> bitcoincore.org is the *only* site that is in any way associated with the bitcoin core project
3722018-03-22T18:35:04 <Randolf> According to WHOIS, bitcoin.org is legally owned by "WhoisGuard, Inc."
3732018-03-22T18:35:59 <wumpus> last I heard cobra was busy with a redesign of bitcoin.org, but yea maintenance for the site is not very active in general. That shouldn't dissuade you from contributing, though.
3742018-03-22T18:36:06 *** hudaman has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
3752018-03-22T18:36:36 <Randolf> wumpus: I don't typically judge web sites by their update frequency.
3762018-03-22T18:37:16 <Randolf> While it makes sense for some web sites (e.g., news), for most just having high quality content is sufficient.
3772018-03-22T18:38:24 *** provoostenator has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
3782018-03-22T18:39:43 <wumpus> doesn't seem there is a PR open yet adding informatino about segwit or lightning: https://github.com/bitcoin-dot-org/bitcoin.org/pulls
3792018-03-22T18:42:38 *** rls has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
3802018-03-22T18:46:27 <Randolf> wumpus: Thanks for that link. I'll try to get involved in that project.
3812018-03-22T18:47:32 *** promag has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
3822018-03-22T18:48:12 *** promag has quit IRC
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3842018-03-22T18:50:46 *** meshcollider has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
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3862018-03-22T18:55:31 <wumpus> thanks
3872018-03-22T18:59:16 *** Victorsueca has quit IRC
3882018-03-22T18:59:35 <dongcarl> Does anyone understand dwheeler's DDC method? Could be good for further ensuring binary security when integrated with Gitian.
3892018-03-22T18:59:44 *** Victorsueca has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
3902018-03-22T19:00:27 <wumpus> I don't know about it - but probably better to ask that after the meeting
3912018-03-22T19:00:45 <sipa> meeting!
3922018-03-22T19:00:45 <wumpus> #startmeeting
3932018-03-22T19:00:45 <lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Mar 22 19:00:45 2018 UTC. The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
3942018-03-22T19:00:45 <lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
3952018-03-22T19:01:06 <provoostenator> Hi
3962018-03-22T19:01:13 <morcos> kind of here
3972018-03-22T19:01:14 <wumpus> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr btcdrak sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag provoostenator
3982018-03-22T19:01:20 <kanzure> hi.
3992018-03-22T19:01:22 <cfields> hi
4002018-03-22T19:01:24 <achow101> oh right, it's thursday
4012018-03-22T19:01:33 <wumpus> yep
4022018-03-22T19:01:37 <instagibbs> hi
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4042018-03-22T19:01:52 <wumpus> any topic suggestions?
4052018-03-22T19:02:18 <BlueMatt> <topic suggestion>
4062018-03-22T19:02:22 <wumpus> #topic high priority for review
4072018-03-22T19:02:24 <ryanofsky> #11536
4082018-03-22T19:02:28 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11536 | Rename account to label where appropriate by ryanofsky · Pull Request #11536 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
4092018-03-22T19:02:33 <wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8
4102018-03-22T19:02:40 <meshcollider> Hi
4112018-03-22T19:03:12 <Randolf> Hello.
4122018-03-22T19:03:18 <wumpus> ryanofsky: anothing specific you want to discuss regarding that pr?
4132018-03-22T19:03:46 <ryanofsky> just curious about status, if it is ready to be merged or if it needs more review
4142018-03-22T19:03:51 <wumpus> anything that needs to be added/removed from high priority for review?
4152018-03-22T19:04:10 *** grafcaps has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
4162018-03-22T19:04:20 <wumpus> ryanofsky: makes sense
4172018-03-22T19:04:33 <sipa> i'll have a look in a minute
4182018-03-22T19:04:42 <Randolf> PR #12759 looks like it would be an easy one to merge quickly.
4192018-03-22T19:04:44 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/12759 | [Docs] Improve formatting of developer notes by eklitzke · Pull Request #12759 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
4202018-03-22T19:04:52 <wumpus> Randolf: that's not the topic though
4212018-03-22T19:04:56 <Randolf> Oh, sorry.
4222018-03-22T19:05:20 <wumpus> formatting of developer notes is not 'high priority for review' in any definition
4232018-03-22T19:05:22 <Randolf> I though you were asking if there was anything to add/remove for review.
4242018-03-22T19:05:28 <Randolf> I see. Yes.
4252018-03-22T19:05:48 <wumpus> high priority for review description is: These either block other important work in progress, or are necessary for backport to a minor release.
4262018-03-22T19:06:18 <Randolf> Thank you.
4272018-03-22T19:06:29 <wumpus> if something can be merged it's better to let me know outside the meeting
4282018-03-22T19:06:39 <wumpus> anyhow, it seems people are happy with the current set, next topic
4292018-03-22T19:06:42 <provoostenator> Topic suggestion: Gitter (we talked about this recently as a way to lower barrier for new contributors, compared to IRC)
4302018-03-22T19:06:49 <jimpo> I've already got one in high pri for review list, but #11857 is more of a blocker for my work
4312018-03-22T19:06:53 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11857 | Build tx index in parallel with validation by jimpo · Pull Request #11857 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
4322018-03-22T19:07:04 <sipa> jimpo: agree that seems a better candidate for now
4332018-03-22T19:07:08 <wumpus> jimpo: swap it out?
4342018-03-22T19:07:13 <jimpo> Yep
4352018-03-22T19:07:35 <sipa> can i have #12714 on the list?
4362018-03-22T19:07:37 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/12714 | Introduce interface for signing providers by sipa · Pull Request #12714 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
4372018-03-22T19:07:45 <wumpus> jimpo: done
4382018-03-22T19:08:03 <wumpus> sipa: done
4392018-03-22T19:08:28 <wumpus> #topic Rename account to label where appropriate (ryanofsky)
4402018-03-22T19:08:51 <provoostenator> That PR seems more or less ready to go, right?
4412018-03-22T19:08:52 <wumpus> <ryanofsky> just curious about status, if it is ready to be merged or if it needs more review
4422018-03-22T19:09:06 <meshcollider> It has 3 tested acks and a utACK already, looks very close if not ready
4432018-03-22T19:09:08 <wumpus> ok!
4442018-03-22T19:09:14 <achow101> I thought that was supposed to go after #7729?
4452018-03-22T19:09:17 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/7729 | rpc: introduce label API for wallet by laanwj · Pull Request #7729 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
4462018-03-22T19:09:18 <ryanofsky> yeah, i think it's ready
4472018-03-22T19:09:20 <achow101> or did I get the order backwards
4482018-03-22T19:09:31 <meshcollider> Yeah other way around achow101
4492018-03-22T19:09:33 <wumpus> if it's ready it should go in
4502018-03-22T19:09:39 <sipa> achow101: 12714 is just a first step taken out of 7729
4512018-03-22T19:09:46 <achow101> oh, ok
4522018-03-22T19:09:46 <sipa> topic suggestion: what's up with #12694 and next steps?
4532018-03-22T19:09:49 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/12694 | Actually disable BnB when there are preset inputs by achow101 · Pull Request #12694 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
4542018-03-22T19:09:57 <meshcollider> Topic suggestion: EOL date for 0.13 ( https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoincore.org/pull/528 )
4552018-03-22T19:10:29 <wumpus> #topic gitter (provoostenator)
4562018-03-22T19:10:44 <BlueMatt> it'd have to be mirrored to irc
4572018-03-22T19:10:56 <sipa> gitter has an IRC interface
4582018-03-22T19:10:57 <BlueMatt> bidirectionally, that is
4592018-03-22T19:11:09 <sipa> as in, you can connect to it as an IRC server
4602018-03-22T19:11:10 <BlueMatt> sipa: that requires we all move our bouncers, I think thats more than its worth
4612018-03-22T19:11:11 <wumpus> I've never used gitter, but I'm not going to join any more chat services
4622018-03-22T19:11:27 <sipa> well what's the context?
4632018-03-22T19:11:32 <luke-jr> what is it?
4642018-03-22T19:11:34 <sipa> i don't think we're planning to move this channel...
4652018-03-22T19:11:37 <BlueMatt> its my impression it can be bidirectionally mirrored to irc, which would be fine, but I'm not sure how much its worth
4662018-03-22T19:11:42 <Randolf> I've tried other chat services, and they're just not as good as IRC.
4672018-03-22T19:11:52 <BlueMatt> sipa: its some newfangled slack-like bullshit that is "for open source projects"
4682018-03-22T19:11:54 <wumpus> mirroring sounds fine to me, if ti doesn't increase the noise level too much
4692018-03-22T19:12:11 <sipa> BlueMatt: i know; i've used it for another project before and it works pretty well
4702018-03-22T19:12:18 <achow101> Isn't the idea to make it easier for people to start contributing?
4712018-03-22T19:12:20 <sipa> but i'm wondering why it's being brought up here?
4722018-03-22T19:12:21 <wumpus> IIRC monero-dev has a mirroring-bot as well and it works there
4732018-03-22T19:12:27 <luke-jr> IRC is easy
4742018-03-22T19:12:34 <sipa> provoostenator: ?
4752018-03-22T19:12:35 <achow101> I don't think it's hard to setup a mirroring bot at all
4762018-03-22T19:12:39 *** testweb-morcos has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
4772018-03-22T19:12:49 <provoostenator> IRC is a pain to setup because of the need for a bouncer
4782018-03-22T19:12:56 <testweb-morcos> so easy, can't we just tell people how to do this
4792018-03-22T19:13:19 <sipa> https://github.com/finnp/gitter-irc-bot
4802018-03-22T19:13:20 <wumpus> so - anyhow, if you want to try setting up a mirroring bot, seems people are ok with it
4812018-03-22T19:13:21 <achow101> provoostenator: IMO, no. we have a public log of this channel, so if someone isn't online, they can read that
4822018-03-22T19:13:22 <luke-jr> provoostenator: if someone wants a bouncer (it's not needed), point them at Quassel
4832018-03-22T19:13:22 <provoostenator> So it probably keeps at least some new devs from reaching out.
4842018-03-22T19:13:26 *** moneyball has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
4852018-03-22T19:13:34 <wumpus> luke-jr: +1 for quassel
4862018-03-22T19:14:04 <achow101> also, there's already a "bitcoin core community" slack that we can use instead of setting up some new service
4872018-03-22T19:14:05 <Randolf> There are many different IRC clients available (including some web-based clients). The problem with a lot of these proprietary messengers is that the options for client software is limited.
4882018-03-22T19:14:09 <wumpus> though if someone can't get IRC to work, I'm not sure how much of a dev they really are
4892018-03-22T19:14:11 <morcos> webchat.freenode.net is trivial for non-tech people, we should just have simple instructions for using that in some obviouse locations
4902018-03-22T19:14:23 <luke-jr> achow101: I hope that gets shut down in a month
4912018-03-22T19:14:45 *** dafunkiz_ has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
4922018-03-22T19:15:05 <jimpo> +1 webchat.freenode.net
4932018-03-22T19:15:11 *** testweb-morcos has quit IRC
4942018-03-22T19:15:17 <luke-jr> morcos: +1
4952018-03-22T19:15:22 <dongcarl> Does webchat.freenode.net work for unregistered?
4962018-03-22T19:15:29 <luke-jr> dongcarl: yes
4972018-03-22T19:15:29 <Randolf> dongcarl: Yes.
4982018-03-22T19:15:30 <provoostenator> I'm fine with better instructions for IRC too, especially if a Gitter bridge is too painful to setup. Agree that monitoring multiple chat things is not a good idea.
4992018-03-22T19:15:53 <luke-jr> achow101: (Slack is removing IRC support)
5002018-03-22T19:16:01 <achow101> luke-jr: they are??!!
5012018-03-22T19:16:06 <achow101> well that sucks
5022018-03-22T19:16:08 <luke-jr> yep
5032018-03-22T19:16:10 <cfields> yep
5042018-03-22T19:16:12 <provoostenator> Not a fan of Slack and it's closed nature.
5052018-03-22T19:16:14 <sipa> slack had IRC support?
5062018-03-22T19:16:21 * Randolf laughs
5072018-03-22T19:16:23 <dongcarl> and removing XMPP
5082018-03-22T19:16:25 <MarcoFalke> instructions are basically google for "webchat irc"
5092018-03-22T19:16:32 <BlueMatt> slack is garbage
5102018-03-22T19:16:33 <luke-jr> sipa: yes, until next month, you can login to slacks with an IRC client
5112018-03-22T19:16:37 <wumpus> slack is terrible, how can a chat client use so much resources
5122018-03-22T19:16:39 *** drexl has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
5132018-03-22T19:16:39 <cfields> sipa: yea, they had a bridge you could enable. Only reason I idle on a few slack channels.
5142018-03-22T19:16:58 <sipa> but the fact that that bitcoin core slack exists, and has people discussing things there who are not here, is probably a sign that there exists an actual barrier
5152018-03-22T19:16:59 <achow101> we can add a link in the readme that points to webchat.freenode
5162018-03-22T19:16:59 <Randolf> wumpus: Discord uses a lot of resources too. I tried it for a while but stopped.
5172018-03-22T19:17:04 <luke-jr> that's why I was on the Core slack at all
5182018-03-22T19:17:14 <provoostenator> wumpus: that's just Electron JS stuff taking up lots of memory.
5192018-03-22T19:17:20 <wumpus> achow101: FWIW the reason we haven't done that is to avoid people going here for suport questions
5202018-03-22T19:17:21 <luke-jr> sipa: I think the barrier is mobile software
5212018-03-22T19:17:28 <sipa> luke-jr: perhaps
5222018-03-22T19:17:39 <dongcarl> slack-to-IRC mirror?
5232018-03-22T19:17:51 *** anome has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
5242018-03-22T19:17:56 <sipa> i've heard several smart people complain about IRC being hard to use, though
5252018-03-22T19:17:57 <wumpus> a bit of a a barrier isn't a bad thing, this channel is really only for development, not 'core discussion'
5262018-03-22T19:17:59 *** JackH has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
5272018-03-22T19:18:00 <achow101> maybe we should start pointing people to https://bitcoincore.org/en/contribute/
5282018-03-22T19:18:02 <jimpo> wumpus: In the contributing guide though?
5292018-03-22T19:18:05 <achow101> it has all the links and instructions
5302018-03-22T19:18:11 <luke-jr> sipa: ask for details? âº
5312018-03-22T19:18:19 <jimpo> Putting instructions for webchat.freenode and the IRC logs?
5322018-03-22T19:18:28 <jimpo> Link to the logs is almost more valuable
5332018-03-22T19:18:31 <BlueMatt> sipa: we need to kill the fucking slack
5342018-03-22T19:18:35 <Randolf> sipa: Many smart people have trouble using computers in general. Oh well.
5352018-03-22T19:18:40 <sipa> BlueMatt: yes, i agree
5362018-03-22T19:18:44 <BlueMatt> or at least rename it Bitcoin Community, not Bitcoin Core....
5372018-03-22T19:18:59 <sipa> BlueMatt: but the fact that it exists is probably a sign that things can be improved
5382018-03-22T19:19:11 <wumpus> ok, time for next topic I think
5392018-03-22T19:19:14 <sipa> :)
5402018-03-22T19:19:39 <luke-jr> jonasschnelli: are you here today?
5412018-03-22T19:19:40 <wumpus> #topic what's up with #12694 and next steps? (sipa)
5422018-03-22T19:19:42 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/12694 | Actually disable BnB when there are preset inputs by achow101 · Pull Request #12694 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
5432018-03-22T19:19:54 <sipa> achow101: what is the issue right now?
5442018-03-22T19:19:57 <achow101> 12694 is a bug fix because I forgot a line of code
5452018-03-22T19:20:03 <achow101> it got lost in a rebase somewhere
5462018-03-22T19:20:07 *** rls has quit IRC
5472018-03-22T19:20:09 <sipa> then we should just merge it
5482018-03-22T19:20:11 <achow101> next steps are #12605
5492018-03-22T19:20:11 <sipa> how bad is it?
5502018-03-22T19:20:12 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/12605 | High level road map for coin selection changes · Issue #12605 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
5512018-03-22T19:20:35 *** jojeyh has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
5522018-03-22T19:20:38 <achow101> it gets messed up when people use preset inputs, but not too bad I think
5532018-03-22T19:20:49 <sipa> can you define "messed up" ?
5542018-03-22T19:20:53 <achow101> I think BnB will be missed when that happens, but there's no guarantee
5552018-03-22T19:21:05 *** rls has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
5562018-03-22T19:21:05 <sipa> i see
5572018-03-22T19:21:30 <achow101> the preset inputs use actual value, but BnB uses effective value. So using both simultaneously can result in some strange behavior, particularly with fees
5582018-03-22T19:21:43 <sipa> what do you think about fixing BnB to work correctly with preset inputs (before also swapping out the fallback selection?)
5592018-03-22T19:21:55 *** anome has quit IRC
5602018-03-22T19:21:59 <wumpus> yes seems #12694 is ready for merge
5612018-03-22T19:22:01 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/12694 | Actually disable BnB when there are preset inputs by achow101 · Pull Request #12694 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
5622018-03-22T19:22:07 <sipa> as i expect that swapping out the fallback selections may take some time
5632018-03-22T19:22:09 <achow101> it requires switching everything over to use effective value
5642018-03-22T19:22:18 <sipa> hmm
5652018-03-22T19:22:33 <sipa> which is something you'd do anyway for the new fallback strategy anyway?
5662018-03-22T19:22:36 <achow101> yes
5672018-03-22T19:22:38 <sipa> gotcha
5682018-03-22T19:23:05 <achow101> I started working on using random selection as a fallback here: https://github.com/achow101/bitcoin/tree/srd-fallback
5692018-03-22T19:24:01 <sipa> ok
5702018-03-22T19:24:06 <wumpus> nice
5712018-03-22T19:24:08 <sipa> thanks, that clarified things
5722018-03-22T19:24:45 <wumpus> ok, any other topics?
5732018-03-22T19:24:51 <morcos> one sec
5742018-03-22T19:25:06 <meshcollider> EOL date for 0.13 ( https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoincore.org/pull/528 )
5752018-03-22T19:25:06 <morcos> We have to as a project get on the same page for at least near term priorities on coin selection
5762018-03-22T19:25:35 <morcos> how do we weight privacy vs fee cost vs utxo set effects in aggregate
5772018-03-22T19:26:01 <luke-jr> users should get a choice per-tx ideally
5782018-03-22T19:26:02 <sipa> how do you even measure privacy?
5792018-03-22T19:26:05 <wumpus> #topic coin selection priorities
5802018-03-22T19:26:17 <morcos> previously we had said we can't worsen the overall utxo set effects, but this is a tough bar to meet given how "dumb" existing coin selection is
5812018-03-22T19:26:19 <sipa> without metric, there isn't even something to optimize for, even if we knew what we wanted
5822018-03-22T19:26:58 <wumpus> if possible we'd not want to reduce privacy at all
5832018-03-22T19:27:05 <luke-jr> sipa: ideally coinjoin everything with other users sending bitcoins at the same time. :p
5842018-03-22T19:27:11 <it-3276294625> I can write an bitcoin bruteforce generator
5852018-03-22T19:27:27 <morcos> well the question is, is it ok to make the coin selction consoldiate inputs less by default? in exchange for perhaps increasing privacy and saving on fees?
5862018-03-22T19:27:38 <wumpus> luke-jr: he's talking about short-term
5872018-03-22T19:28:10 <morcos> my view, is that we shouldn't expect any wallet to do anything that is better for the local user, so if there is an aggregate net negative effect on the utxo
5882018-03-22T19:28:22 <luke-jr> morcos: depends on where you're sending them
5892018-03-22T19:28:27 <morcos> then that needs to be addressed with consensus costing changes in the long run (such as segwit)
5902018-03-22T19:28:43 <morcos> and we should give up trying to be overally globally nice at the expense of our own users in core
5912018-03-22T19:28:57 <morcos> for instance we currently spend non-economic inputs
5922018-03-22T19:29:02 <meshcollider> morcos: by consolidate less, you mean the total number would remain roughly the same? Or actively worsen
5932018-03-22T19:29:08 <luke-jr> consensus changes aren't that simple nor obvious
5942018-03-22T19:29:54 <morcos> meshcollider: i don't know... i don't trust the simulations that much, but it would be obvious from the algorithm that the utxo set growth by core wallets would be increased somewhat
5952018-03-22T19:29:59 <luke-jr> demurrage would probably make sense, but that would be so controversial it would never happen
5962018-03-22T19:30:19 <morcos> luke-jr: agreed, and we don't know now what the long term bottlenecks really are, so we couldn't even design the right answer , let alone implement it
5972018-03-22T19:30:34 *** HFRadical has quit IRC
5982018-03-22T19:30:34 <it-3276294625> How bitcoin keygen is build , between what parameters
5992018-03-22T19:30:47 <sipa> it-3276294625: not now; we're in a meeting
6002018-03-22T19:30:55 <it-3276294625> Ok
6012018-03-22T19:31:29 <wumpus> bitcoinwarezkeygencracker
6022018-03-22T19:31:34 *** HFRadical has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
6032018-03-22T19:31:44 * Randolf laughs
6042018-03-22T19:31:50 * luke-jr would not be surprised if that was a thing.
6052018-03-22T19:31:54 <wumpus> #topic EOL date for 0.13 (meshcollider)
6062018-03-22T19:31:55 <morcos> if murchandamus were here, i think he'd say that of course nothing is going to be as good for the utxo set as the existing core algo. my argument is therefore we should allow ourself to make it worse, since thats not what anyone would design from scratch
6072018-03-22T19:32:26 <it-3276294625> wumpus: steel not answering to my question :)) what are the parameters that the code is generated
6082018-03-22T19:32:34 <wumpus> it-3276294625: go away
6092018-03-22T19:32:49 <meshcollider> morcos: yeah I think most users are more concerned with the fees, they can consolidate inputs themselves when fees are low
6102018-03-22T19:32:53 <wumpus> morcos: sorry! thought the topic was over
6112018-03-22T19:33:00 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o sipa
6122018-03-22T19:33:01 <morcos> no problem
6132018-03-22T19:33:28 <meshcollider> But consolidation worsens the coin selection performance does it?
6142018-03-22T19:33:29 <morcos> meshcollider: yeah and i'm in favor building iin functionality to do that in core too... we should try to make it easy to be a good utxo citizen
6152018-03-22T19:33:32 <jcorgan> a rigorous definition of "loss of privacy" would go a long way toward being able to measure it
6162018-03-22T19:33:40 <morcos> meshcollider: what do you mean by performance?
6172018-03-22T19:33:50 <achow101> morcos: less utxo's make BnB less effective
6182018-03-22T19:34:14 *** moneyball has quit IRC
6192018-03-22T19:34:18 <meshcollider> How well it can select inputs, a larger variety of inputs improves the selection doesn't it?
6202018-03-22T19:34:20 <morcos> achow101: well, we disagree on how much difference BnB makes. i think exact matches are rare enough that trying to improve their frequency is a neglible effect
6212018-03-22T19:34:32 *** sipa sets mode: -o sipa
6222018-03-22T19:34:45 <sipa> morcos: in high-fee times i think they matter a lot, no?
6232018-03-22T19:34:52 <morcos> exact matches?
6242018-03-22T19:35:40 <sipa> within a window of the cost of creating change, yes
6252018-03-22T19:36:09 <morcos> i think they are still rare, but unforutnately neither of us have any data, b/c we dont know what core txs are from big wallets and what are from small
6262018-03-22T19:36:18 <sipa> fair
6272018-03-22T19:36:47 <morcos> but sure, i mean all you are arguing is maybe loosening consolidation isn't making things as bad as i'm saying
6282018-03-22T19:36:50 <morcos> great
6292018-03-22T19:37:32 <morcos> it sounds like we're mostly in agreement we can move in this direction, just not #reckless ly
6302018-03-22T19:37:43 <luke-jr> maybe we could have an opt-in statistics report at some point? just with the "exact match found? y/n" and vague wallet classifications?
6312018-03-22T19:37:58 <Randolf> luke-jr: That's an interesting idea.
6322018-03-22T19:38:11 <meshcollider> "Bitcoin core would like to collect and share anonymous usage data with the developers"
6332018-03-22T19:38:14 <morcos> luke-jr: i certainly think that would be useful, but who would trust that
6342018-03-22T19:38:14 <luke-jr> delayed randomly to prevent fingerprinting
6352018-03-22T19:38:14 <meshcollider> Heh
6362018-03-22T19:38:33 <luke-jr> morcos: design it so the data can be public without revealing anything dangerous
6372018-03-22T19:38:35 <morcos> and next thing you know we're being subpoenaed for it
6382018-03-22T19:38:40 <morcos> perhaps
6392018-03-22T19:38:44 <Randolf> morcos: I think a lot of users probably would use that feature. I would because I'd see it as a way to support the future development of Bitcoin.
6402018-03-22T19:38:58 <achow101> luke-jr: make it so public that everything is publicly logged
6412018-03-22T19:39:13 <meshcollider> It'd be cool if it just wrote to a data file in the directory so they could just upload that file if they want to help
6422018-03-22T19:39:14 <morcos> yeah taht would be the only way
6432018-03-22T19:39:14 <luke-jr> achow101: yeah, we could literally have a site with all data received
6442018-03-22T19:39:39 <sipa> i'd be against that
6452018-03-22T19:40:00 <luke-jr> which part?
6462018-03-22T19:40:12 <sipa> having a single site that collecta data
6472018-03-22T19:40:15 <wumpus> would definitely be against automatic uploading
6482018-03-22T19:40:21 <Randolf> meshcollider: I don't like that -- people should be asked first. The problem is that spyware could copy such a file.
6492018-03-22T19:40:23 <cfields> if nothing else, seems the data would be skewed against the privacy metric anyway?
6502018-03-22T19:40:38 <sipa> cfields: right
6512018-03-22T19:40:54 <jcorgan> some ideas are just better left unexplored
6522018-03-22T19:41:36 <meshcollider> Ok are we moving to next topic now?
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6542018-03-22T19:42:04 <Randolf> sipa: Decentralized would certainly be better.
6552018-03-22T19:42:14 <meshcollider> Just a quick one, to discuss the EOL date for 0.13 since the lifecycle page on bitcoincore.org needs an update
6562018-03-22T19:42:25 <meshcollider> https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoincore.org/pull/528
6572018-03-22T19:42:28 <morcos> ready to move on
6582018-03-22T19:42:39 <Randolf> meshcollider: I think the date suggested there is reasonable.
6592018-03-22T19:42:41 <luke-jr> I still use 0.13 for my cold wallet, but I'm not willing to commit to maintaining it
6602018-03-22T19:43:20 <MarcoFalke> It is already unmaintained
6612018-03-22T19:43:52 <wumpus> meshcollider: looks good to me
6622018-03-22T19:44:16 <meshcollider> Sweet, jnewbery just wanted to have it discussed here
6632018-03-22T19:44:19 <luke-jr> MarcoFalke: then it shouldbe a past date
6642018-03-22T19:44:31 <meshcollider> luke-jr: there are 2 dates
6652018-03-22T19:44:35 <MarcoFalke> ^
6662018-03-22T19:44:45 <meshcollider> One is end of maintenance, the other is full EOL
6672018-03-22T19:44:46 <luke-jr> I know
6682018-03-22T19:45:16 <meshcollider> Ok that's that then. Any other topics?
6692018-03-22T19:45:32 <wumpus> right, maintenance means that there could be general bugfix releases on that branch, EOL means even cricitcal security patches won't be backported to that
6702018-03-22T19:46:06 <luke-jr> which is what I was referring to anyway
6712018-03-22T19:46:15 <achow101> i think luke-jr is saying that 0.13 is already past EOL
6722018-03-22T19:46:24 <jnewbery> date seems fine to me. Is there any convention we use to set the EOL date?
6732018-03-22T19:46:38 <Randolf> achow101: Then perhaps the EOL date should be changed to today?
6742018-03-22T19:46:54 <wumpus> +/- a year after end maintenance
6752018-03-22T19:47:16 <meshcollider> Note that 0.12 EOL was only 3 weeks ago
6762018-03-22T19:47:25 <luke-jr> achow101: well, that depends on the rest of you all; if someone will backport critical fixes..
6772018-03-22T19:47:55 <luke-jr> I just meant that I'm not willing to commit to doing it longer âº
6782018-03-22T19:48:24 *** grafcaps has quit IRC
6792018-03-22T19:49:08 <wumpus> me neither
6802018-03-22T19:49:13 <wumpus> any other topics?
6812018-03-22T19:49:58 <achow101> luke-jr: I doubt there will be anything that requires another 0.13 release in the next 4 months anyways
6822018-03-22T19:50:57 <MarcoFalke> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blame/f686002a8eba820a40ac2f34a6e8f57b2b5cc54c/doc/release-process.md#L297 could be modified to include "Update https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoincore.org/blob/master/_includes/posts/_maintenance-table.md"
6832018-03-22T19:51:23 <achow101> while we're talking about this, maybe we should also set 0.14's EOL date
6842018-03-22T19:52:17 <meshcollider> Feb 1 2019?
6852018-03-22T19:52:49 <jnewbery> meshcollider: +1
6862018-03-22T19:52:54 <Randolf> achow101: This starts to venture into another question: How many previous versions should be supported/non-EOL?
6872018-03-22T19:53:02 <Randolf> Should there be a maximum number?
6882018-03-22T19:53:44 <jcorgan> said number would be dynamic an depend entirely on the willingness of volunteers to do it
6892018-03-22T19:53:47 <achow101> Randolf: IIRC we always did current, previous as maintenance, and one before that critical updates only
6902018-03-22T19:54:00 <luke-jr> Randolf: all depends on what developers are willing to maintain
6912018-03-22T19:54:20 <luke-jr> several years ago, I maintained some versions for years
6922018-03-22T19:55:01 <wumpus> also depends on the scope of the problem, if it's a simple backport, it's easy to roll another 0.13 version anyway, if it takes a full-on refactor first, no one will likely bother
6932018-03-22T19:55:03 <jcorgan> if there were an user/organization that was dependent upon security and/or bug fixes in an older, unmaintained version, they could certainly pay industry rates to a competent person to do so
6942018-03-22T19:55:09 *** Emcy has quit IRC
6952018-03-22T19:55:13 <luke-jr> jcorgan: +1
6962018-03-22T19:55:30 <Randolf> luke-jr++
6972018-03-22T19:56:12 <sipa> (luke) - (jr++) ?
6982018-03-22T19:56:14 <Randolf> wumpus: I can see that if it's a major job, the recommendation will be to upgrade to a newer version anyway.
6992018-03-22T19:56:26 <wumpus> Randolf: yes
7002018-03-22T19:56:26 <luke-jr> sipa: lol
7012018-03-22T19:56:45 *** booyah_ is now known as booyah
7022018-03-22T19:57:01 <jcorgan> the issue would come up with someone who maintains and uses a modified branch
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7042018-03-22T19:57:31 <jcorgan> it might be easier to pay someone to backport something than to try to roll their changes forward
7052018-03-22T19:57:48 <luke-jr> depends on what it is
7062018-03-22T19:57:58 <jcorgan> sure
7072018-03-22T19:58:12 <Randolf> sipa: I'm used to the karma bot in the #perl channel. :)
7082018-03-22T19:58:22 <achow101> on a semi-related note, should we remove the branches for EOL versions
7092018-03-22T19:58:31 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jimpo opened pull request #12760: Docs: Improve documentation on standard communication channels. (master...communication-channels) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12760
7102018-03-22T19:58:42 <wumpus> achow101: probably
7112018-03-22T19:59:34 *** dafunkiz_ has quit IRC
7122018-03-22T19:59:43 <wumpus> has been a while since I last cleaned up branches
7132018-03-22T20:00:01 <sipa> PLOINK
7142018-03-22T20:00:09 <wumpus> #endmeeting
7152018-03-22T20:00:09 <lightningbot> Meeting ended Thu Mar 22 20:00:09 2018 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
7162018-03-22T20:00:09 <lightningbot> Minutes: http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2018/bitcoin-core-dev.2018-03-22-19.00.html
7172018-03-22T20:00:09 <lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2018/bitcoin-core-dev.2018-03-22-19.00.txt
7182018-03-22T20:00:09 <lightningbot> Log: http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2018/bitcoin-core-dev.2018-03-22-19.00.log.html
7192018-03-22T20:00:15 <luke-jr> sipa lays down the time limit
7202018-03-22T20:00:50 <luke-jr> heading home, this worked out well; bbl
7212018-03-22T20:00:55 <Randolf> Take care luke-jr.
7222018-03-22T20:01:14 <Randolf> Good day to everyone. That seemed to be a very productive meeting.
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7242018-03-22T20:01:25 <wumpus> later
7252018-03-22T20:01:50 <achow101> wumpus: merge #12694
7262018-03-22T20:01:53 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/12694 | Actually disable BnB when there are preset inputs by achow101 · Pull Request #12694 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
7272018-03-22T20:01:53 <achow101> ?
7282018-03-22T20:02:00 *** dafunkiz_ has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
7292018-03-22T20:02:55 <wumpus> yes
7302018-03-22T20:05:05 *** tryphe_ has quit IRC
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7362018-03-22T20:13:43 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 3 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/f686002a8eba...9552dfb1f632
7372018-03-22T20:13:44 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 6ef9982 Andrew Chow: Actually disable BnB when there are preset inputs...
7382018-03-22T20:13:44 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 081bf54 Andrew Chow: Test that BnB is not used when there are preset inputs
7392018-03-22T20:13:45 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 9552dfb Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #12694: Actually disable BnB when there are preset inputs...
7402018-03-22T20:14:26 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #12694: Actually disable BnB when there are preset inputs (master...fix-preset-coins-bnb) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12694
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7552018-03-22T20:28:34 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 3 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/9552dfb1f632...cead84b72d27
7562018-03-22T20:28:35 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 045eeb8 Russell Yanofsky: Rename account to label where appropriate...
7572018-03-22T20:28:35 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master d2527bd Russell Yanofsky: Rename wallet_accounts.py test...
7582018-03-22T20:28:36 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master cead84b Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #11536: Rename account to label where appropriate...
7592018-03-22T20:28:58 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #11536: Rename account to label where appropriate (master...pr/acct) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11536
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7822018-03-22T21:14:33 <justin__> any reason not to further lower relay fee even 1 sat/byte seems expensive nowadays or am I just cheap? :P
7832018-03-22T21:21:47 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #12757: Clarify include guard naming convention (master...include-guard) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12757
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7882018-03-22T21:47:37 <luke-jr> justin__: any lower probably won't get relayed, but off-topic here.
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