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 19 2018-06-21T01:38:05  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake reopened pull request #13503: Document FreeBSD quirk. Fix FreeBSD build: Cast to int to allow std::min to work under FreeBSD. (master...document-freebsd-quirk) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13503
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 21 2018-06-21T01:45:18  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #13512: [qa] mininode: Expose connection state through is_connected (master...Mf1806-qaMininodeState) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13512
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 35 2018-06-21T02:34:51  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #13513: [wip] depends: native_protobuf 3.6.0 (master...depends-protobuf-36) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13513
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 39 2018-06-21T02:51:00  <fanquake> sipa: Feeling a bit nostalgic today? 100'000 was quite a while ago
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 48 2018-06-21T03:24:25  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #13514: depends: set LANG=C in Makefile (master...depends-ios-support) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13514
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 58 2018-06-21T04:03:33  <skeees> pierre_rochard: looks like bitcoinacks might not update when labels get removed from a pr
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 60 2018-06-21T04:11:03  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] ken2812221 opened pull request #13515: travis: Enable Qt build for Windows and 32-bit Linux (master...travis_qt) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13515
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126 2018-06-21T08:04:06  <wumpus> I won't be able to attend tonight's meeting, can someone else chair this time please?
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143 2018-06-21T09:08:02  <jonasschnelli> wumpus: I'm also not sure if I make it on time... so happy if sipa, MarcoFalke or someone else takes the chair
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165 2018-06-21T10:54:11  <Guest37145> bitcoin to rise $8230 2.35am EST tomorrow
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168 2018-06-21T11:02:05  <Guest37145> dgdsgd
169 2018-06-21T11:02:05  <Guest37145> sgd
170 2018-06-21T11:02:06  <Guest37145> sg
171 2018-06-21T11:02:06  <Guest37145> dsg
172 2018-06-21T11:02:07  <Guest37145> d
173 2018-06-21T11:02:07  <Guest37145> g
174 2018-06-21T11:02:08  <Guest37145> dsg
175 2018-06-21T11:02:08  <Guest37145> dg
176 2018-06-21T11:02:09  <Guest37145> dsg
177 2018-06-21T11:02:09  <Guest37145> d
178 2018-06-21T11:02:10  <Guest37145> g
179 2018-06-21T11:02:10  <Guest37145> dg
180 2018-06-21T11:02:11  <Guest37145> d
181 2018-06-21T11:02:11  <Guest37145> gd
182 2018-06-21T11:02:12  <Guest37145> g
183 2018-06-21T11:02:12  <Guest37145> dsg
184 2018-06-21T11:02:13  <Guest37145> gds
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204 2018-06-21T12:45:55  <pierre_rochard> skeees: ouch, I'll fix asap
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216 2018-06-21T13:27:13  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #13517: qa: Remove need to handle the network thread in tests (master...Mf1806-qaAsyncIo) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13517
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241 2018-06-21T14:25:05  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jonasschnelli pushed 9 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/6579d80572d2...000abbb6b074
242 2018-06-21T14:25:06  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 537efe1 João Barbosa: rpc: Extract GetWalletNameFromJSONRPCRequest from GetWalletForJSONRPCRequest
243 2018-06-21T14:25:06  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 6608c36 João Barbosa: rpc: Add unloadwallet RPC
244 2018-06-21T14:25:07  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 4940a20 João Barbosa: test: Add functional tests for unloadwallet RPC
245 2018-06-21T14:25:49  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jonasschnelli closed pull request #13111: Add unloadwallet RPC (master...2018-04-unload-wallet) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13111
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348 2018-06-21T19:00:01  <sipa> #startmeeting
349 2018-06-21T19:00:01  <lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Jun 21 19:00:01 2018 UTC.  The chair is sipa. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
350 2018-06-21T19:00:01  <lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
351 2018-06-21T19:00:08  <achow101> hi
352 2018-06-21T19:00:13  <promag> hi
353 2018-06-21T19:00:39  <meshcollider> Hi
354 2018-06-21T19:00:45  <sipa> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr btcdrak sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag provoostenator
355 2018-06-21T19:00:52  <kanzure> hi.
356 2018-06-21T19:00:57  <sipa> topics?
357 2018-06-21T19:01:00  <kanzure> alert key
358 2018-06-21T19:01:05  <kanzure> not priority tho
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360 2018-06-21T19:01:42  <instagibbs> hi
361 2018-06-21T19:02:24  <sipa> okay, let's start with high-priority reviews
362 2018-06-21T19:02:33  <sipa> #topic review blocks
363 2018-06-21T19:02:34  <kanzure> also, bitcoin-dev mailing list hosting provider is migrating away from the email protocol, so the underlying host is going to probably switch soon (more details forthcoming)
364 2018-06-21T19:03:16  <jnewbery> hi
365 2018-06-21T19:03:26  <sipa> we have 3 open review blockers: #13062 #12196 #13425
366 2018-06-21T19:03:29  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/13062 | Make script interpreter independent from storage type CScript by sipa · Pull Request #13062 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
367 2018-06-21T19:03:33  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/12196 | Add scantxoutset RPC method by jonasschnelli · Pull Request #12196 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
368 2018-06-21T19:03:37  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/13425 | Moving final scriptSig construction from CombineSignatures to ProduceSignature (PSBT signer logic) by achow101 · Pull Request #13425 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
369 2018-06-21T19:03:44  <achow101> the merged ones should be removed from the list
370 2018-06-21T19:04:00  <sipa> good point, will od
371 2018-06-21T19:04:48  <sipa> done
372 2018-06-21T19:04:55  <sipa> any proposals for others to add?
373 2018-06-21T19:05:14  <promag> I'll update #13100 in the next couple of days, but would be nice to have it on high priority
374 2018-06-21T19:05:16  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/13100 | gui: Add menu entry to open wallet by promag · Pull Request #13100 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
375 2018-06-21T19:05:37  <promag> it's the missing piece in the dyn multi wallet story
376 2018-06-21T19:05:49  <sipa> promag: ping me when ready, i'll add it then
377 2018-06-21T19:06:01  <promag> will do ty
378 2018-06-21T19:06:13  <sipa> #topic alert key
379 2018-06-21T19:06:15  <sipa> kanzure: ^
380 2018-06-21T19:06:39  <kanzure> alert key system deprecated, topic has absolutely no impact on bitcoind itself AFAIK
381 2018-06-21T19:06:50  <achow101> besides vulnerable versions
382 2018-06-21T19:06:50  <kanzure> i recognize the request to perhaps wait for v0.13 end-of-life, would like to hear more comments about that
383 2018-06-21T19:06:55  <sipa> absent any other topic proposals, i'm sure we can talk about it
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385 2018-06-21T19:07:04  <kanzure> i believe those vulnerabilities might not be public but whatever, yes those
386 2018-06-21T19:07:36  <achow101> 0.13 is the first version to have the alert system gone. the final alert stuff was added in 0.14.
387 2018-06-21T19:07:55  <kanzure> for context: i'm thinking of releasing the private key, would be nice to get that out there and remove that liability
388 2018-06-21T19:07:56  <achow101> so waiting for 0.14 to be the oldest version in any form of support is good
389 2018-06-21T19:08:01  <gmaxwell> Though it was default off since what.. 0.10.something ?
390 2018-06-21T19:08:06  <luke-jr> if 0.13 doesn't have alert system at all, why wait for it to be EOL?
391 2018-06-21T19:08:07  <achow101> 0.12
392 2018-06-21T19:08:26  <meshcollider> Yeah doesn't seem much point waiting for 13 EOL
393 2018-06-21T19:08:38  <meshcollider> 0.12 is already gone
394 2018-06-21T19:08:59  <gmaxwell> There are two levels, off by default, and gone completely. 0.12 has it off by default and 0.13 gone completely?
395 2018-06-21T19:09:04  <achow101> yes
396 2018-06-21T19:09:18  <kanzure> i'm particularly interested in hearing from others who have good reason not to reveal the key.. in the year+ since this was announced i don't think much has been raised.
397 2018-06-21T19:09:21  <gmaxwell> and 0.12 is not supported at all, so all supported versions have it gone completely.
398 2018-06-21T19:09:37  <kanzure> i sent out an email to the mailing list a few days ago and i have heard back from exactly one person regarding a request for a final alert message to some other altcoin
399 2018-06-21T19:09:50  <kanzure> so i think this stuff is good and dead at this point
400 2018-06-21T19:09:54  <achow101> yes
401 2018-06-21T19:10:07  <achow101> also, if someone needs a final alert, they can pull it from the current source code
402 2018-06-21T19:10:07  <gmaxwell> So that sounds pretty good for a release now, unless pre-0.12 nodes are still popular, and I don't believe they are.
403 2018-06-21T19:10:24  <achow101> I would assume that someone who has changed the alert format would also change the alert key
404 2018-06-21T19:10:30  <kanzure> anyway, if anyone would like to send me name suggestions for someone to go talk to in private, i'm open to that, although i don't expect to hear from anyone
405 2018-06-21T19:10:56  <gmaxwell> unfortunately, final alerts don't have the protective properties we believed they had.
406 2018-06-21T19:11:03  <luke-jr> there's ~3% of the network on 0.12
407 2018-06-21T19:11:12  <achow101> luke-jr: what about earlier?
408 2018-06-21T19:11:12  <kanzure> was non-protection disclosed somewhere?
409 2018-06-21T19:11:27  <sipa> bitnodes says around 300 ish 0.12 and below nodes, out of 9945
410 2018-06-21T19:11:40  <luke-jr> achow101: 0.61% "other" versions, which includes everything before 0.12
411 2018-06-21T19:11:52  <luke-jr> http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/branches.html
412 2018-06-21T19:11:56  <achow101> ok.. and they all probably have the final alert anyways
413 2018-06-21T19:12:00  <luke-jr> sipa: bitnodes only shows listening
414 2018-06-21T19:12:09  <sipa> luke-jr: i'm aware; just offering an extra data point
415 2018-06-21T19:12:10  <luke-jr> although that's the same 3%
416 2018-06-21T19:12:35  <luke-jr> gmaxwell: what was missing re protective properties?
417 2018-06-21T19:13:02  <kanzure> also how do folks feel about the unmentioned (spamming) vulnerabilities related to this?
418 2018-06-21T19:14:01  <gmaxwell> luke-jr: back when we first started talking about publishing it I was under the mistaken belief that a final alert basically disabled the alert code ... e.g. no more alert message processing, only relaying of the final alert.
419 2018-06-21T19:14:24  <gmaxwell> so that a final alert would effectively also limit the usefulness of any alert dos attacks
420 2018-06-21T19:14:30  <gmaxwell> But that isn't the case.
421 2018-06-21T19:14:34  <achow101> kanzure: I think all of the vulns should be disclosed at the same time as the key
422 2018-06-21T19:14:47  <kanzure> this sounds like the same one
423 2018-06-21T19:14:49  <luke-jr> gmaxwell: that was also my impression
424 2018-06-21T19:15:01  <gmaxwell> I doubt we know all the vulnerabilities. I know of at least two but I stopped looking.
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426 2018-06-21T19:15:12  <achow101> gmaxwell: I believe I know of three
427 2018-06-21T19:15:26  <gmaxwell> Also depends on how you count. :)
428 2018-06-21T19:15:29  <achow101> that too
429 2018-06-21T19:15:46  <sipa> i tend to count using the ring of integers
430 2018-06-21T19:16:22  <gmaxwell> in any case, the alert code didn't stand up to careful review and is somewhat exposed to malicious alerts.
431 2018-06-21T19:16:35  <gmaxwell> But then again any code still with it is also exposed in other ways.
432 2018-06-21T19:16:49  <BlueMatt> there's also limited utility to releasing the alert key
433 2018-06-21T19:16:55  <kanzure> sounds like some forkcoin projects might have to deal with this if they haven't already, not just rely on the fantasy of a final alert that shuts down the alert system
434 2018-06-21T19:16:58  <BlueMatt> aside from "one less thing to worry about"
435 2018-06-21T19:17:33  <gmaxwell> kanzure: well if anything still had it, it would have been easy enough to fix.
436 2018-06-21T19:17:49  <gmaxwell> (by basically adding an "if I have had a final alert, drop all new alert messages" line.
437 2018-06-21T19:17:50  <jnewbery> I think 'one less thing to worry about' is good enough reason (also 'one less thing to discuss for the rest of our lives')
438 2018-06-21T19:17:50  <gmaxwell> )
439 2018-06-21T19:18:01  <kanzure> i was surprised by the one person that did message- didn't think he would have had something with the alert system :-)
440 2018-06-21T19:18:08  <kanzure> and if he could make that kind of mistake, i'd imagine many others are making worse mistakes
441 2018-06-21T19:18:22  <gmaxwell> I was more concerned about it a year ago when in a short periord we had multiple people crop up and propose using that stupid key as some centeralized controlled whatever.
442 2018-06-21T19:18:36  <meshcollider> And it has been a couple of years since the deprecation was announced, it's not like fair warning wasn't given in any case
443 2018-06-21T19:18:39  <achow101> kanzure: if the altcoins have better control of their alert key, publishing the bitcoin one and the related vulns shouldn't be a problem
444 2018-06-21T19:18:45  <kanzure> #action collect vulnerability knowledge from achow101
445 2018-06-21T19:19:03  <kanzure> achow101: ah interesting point. i was only thinking about the projects that copied the public key actually.
446 2018-06-21T19:19:23  <gmaxwell> I had thought there were ~none, but it turns out prior searches were somewhat ineffective.
447 2018-06-21T19:19:25  <achow101> kanzure: AFAICT, there aren't any projects using the bitcoin one
448 2018-06-21T19:19:32  <gmaxwell> The litecoin alertkey is copied all over heck and back.
449 2018-06-21T19:19:38  <achow101> Google and github search for the key itself has turned up nothing
450 2018-06-21T19:19:40  <gmaxwell> achow101: there was at least one we missed.
451 2018-06-21T19:19:52  <kanzure> achow101: there is at least one actually, and someone contacted me about it i think :-)
452 2018-06-21T19:20:11  <achow101> it could be that they removed the alert system but still have legacy nodes?
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454 2018-06-21T19:20:40  <kanzure> unfortunately this person was also misinformed about the effects of the final alert message... in fact, i should go fix that misunderstanding.
455 2018-06-21T19:20:46  <gmaxwell> In any case, I think there has been plenty of warning from the prior discussion.
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457 2018-06-21T19:21:07  <gmaxwell> kanzure: also I think our prior discussion made it pretty clear that the final alert turned out to not be so final.
458 2018-06-21T19:21:21  <BlueMatt> at some point if you're so incompetent that you leave the alert key around for a while you've probably broken things in 10 other ways, honestly
459 2018-06-21T19:21:26  <gmaxwell> (or rather there were DOS vulnerabilties that persisted in spite of it)
460 2018-06-21T19:21:41  <kanzure> BlueMatt: yeah but i also somewhat have a duty to not inadvertedly break other people's broken systems just because they are stupid broken systems
461 2018-06-21T19:21:46  <BlueMatt> I dont think we need to worry about other random crap
462 2018-06-21T19:21:53  <meshcollider> Agreed, I think just a full post with all info, vulns and key would be best now to resolve this
463 2018-06-21T19:21:57  <gmaxwell> the alert system was kinda cool, except for the bugs... and unclear security model, lack of multisig, etc. :P
464 2018-06-21T19:22:04  <BlueMatt> more like worry about our own crap and make sure to sufficiently disclose, which clearly happened
465 2018-06-21T19:22:20  <luke-jr> DoS is not a big deal IMO
466 2018-06-21T19:22:25  <kanzure> sure. okay. let's move on.
467 2018-06-21T19:22:31  <luke-jr> maybe the denial of service will prompt the user to upgrade ;)
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469 2018-06-21T19:22:36  <kanzure> i do have one other topic about bitcoin-dev mailing list
470 2018-06-21T19:22:37  <gmaxwell> luke-jr: yes, assuming thats the worst of it.
471 2018-06-21T19:22:59  <sipa> ok, let's switch topics
472 2018-06-21T19:23:10  <gmaxwell> (I don't have any reason to assume it's worse than dos other than the fact that there were a bunch of DOS vulns that were unknown until I checked before publishing the key)
473 2018-06-21T19:23:13  <sipa> #topic bitcoin-dev mailinglist
474 2018-06-21T19:23:23  <kanzure> linuxfoundation is migrating away from the email protocol and will no longer be hosting the bitcoin-dev mailing list
475 2018-06-21T19:23:40  <kanzure> there is a migration plan but it's under investigating still
476 2018-06-21T19:23:42  <BlueMatt> what are the other 200 mailing lists on lists.linuxfoundation.org doing?
477 2018-06-21T19:23:42  <kanzure> details are still forthcoming sorry i don't have anything specific at this time
478 2018-06-21T19:23:52  <kanzure> will post to mailing list when i have more details about actual plan
479 2018-06-21T19:24:01  <BlueMatt> errr, oh, actually there arent many
480 2018-06-21T19:24:03  <kanzure> i believe the current plan is "give lists.linuxfoundation.org to osuosl"
481 2018-06-21T19:24:22  <achow101> what does "migrating away from the email protocol" mean? are they just not doing mailing lists anymore?
482 2018-06-21T19:24:27  <luke-jr> achow101: right
483 2018-06-21T19:24:32  <kanzure> achow101: linuxfoundation no longer believes in email apparently
484 2018-06-21T19:24:42  <kanzure> i don't know, man.
485 2018-06-21T19:24:45  <meshcollider> lol
486 2018-06-21T19:24:48  <gmaxwell> Is that like not believing in santa clause?
487 2018-06-21T19:24:59  <kanzure> it's similar but not in the abstract
488 2018-06-21T19:25:03  <gmaxwell> claus*
489 2018-06-21T19:25:22  <sipa> How can you believe in the universe, if you don't even know if email is real?
490 2018-06-21T19:25:36  <kanzure> i'll post more details once i have some, i'd prefer to get an email out to the mailing list before the migration happens since this is weird and unusual
491 2018-06-21T19:25:41  <luke-jr> I guess if you disbelieve in email, it ceases to be real for you?
492 2018-06-21T19:25:54  <gmaxwell> in any case, I can't say that I was completely happy with LF regardless.
493 2018-06-21T19:26:05  <kanzure> my primary concern is about linkrot
494 2018-06-21T19:26:16  <kanzure> they seem open to including some rewrite rules on their http server to fix some of the linkrot problem
495 2018-06-21T19:26:23  <sipa> ... for now
496 2018-06-21T19:26:39  <luke-jr> kanzure: if they're letting OSUOSL use the domain, wouldn't OSUOSL just be able to maintain the links?
497 2018-06-21T19:26:54  <kanzure> and also, if the mailing list was to move away from lists.linuxfoundation.org as the domain, and MX records, then potential email delivery problems for the current subscribers
498 2018-06-21T19:27:19  <kanzure> luke-jr: sipa notes that the relationship there might change over time
499 2018-06-21T19:27:19  <sipa> are there any other topics?
500 2018-06-21T19:27:27  <achow101> I'm already experiencing mail delivery problems, so....
501 2018-06-21T19:27:40  <luke-jr> kanzure: nothing we can do can prevent that AFAIK
502 2018-06-21T19:27:40  <sipa> (we can let this discussion continue if nothing else, but perhaps there are more development related topics)
503 2018-06-21T19:27:45  <kanzure> oh yeah, achow101 has reported mail delivery and receipt problems for lists.linuxfoundation.org that i haven't been able to investigate
504 2018-06-21T19:30:04  <aj> was there configuration / bitcon-rw.conf / ...? stuff to discuss? i think some got deferred from previous meetings
505 2018-06-21T19:30:11  <achow101> topic suggestion: coin selection
506 2018-06-21T19:30:21  <achow101> (again)
507 2018-06-21T19:30:54  <sipa> aj: i'm not up to date with that discussion
508 2018-06-21T19:31:00  <sipa> #topic coin selection
509 2018-06-21T19:31:22  <achow101> I did a bunch of simulations of the srd fallback stuff
510 2018-06-21T19:31:22  <achow101> https://gist.github.com/achow101/242470486265d3f21adab08f65b9102c
511 2018-06-21T19:31:37  <luke-jr> aj: yes, last time it was deferred cuz someone wasn't here
512 2018-06-21T19:31:58  <achow101> there are two problems that I see with this strategy: change can be incredibly small and the mean number of utxos in the wallet is quite highg
513 2018-06-21T19:32:42  *** Murch has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
514 2018-06-21T19:33:04  <achow101> the question is whether we can accept these tradeoffs or whether we need to find a better algorithm
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516 2018-06-21T19:33:50  <sipa> it sounds concerning to me
517 2018-06-21T19:34:03  <achow101> I agree, especially the small change
518 2018-06-21T19:34:21  <achow101> we may have to keep MIN_CHANGE, but I don't really like having a fixed minimum change
519 2018-06-21T19:34:39  <gmaxwell> is this code discarding sub fee change?
520 2018-06-21T19:34:49  <sipa> yes
521 2018-06-21T19:35:05  <sipa> you mean turning dust change into fee? yes
522 2018-06-21T19:36:02  <gmaxwell> OKAY
523 2018-06-21T19:36:28  <gmaxwell> So let me check my understanding of our understanding.
524 2018-06-21T19:36:56  <gmaxwell> SRD is producing poor solutions in cases where the wallet has lots of small inputs?  And also tends to produce small change itself?
525 2018-06-21T19:37:10  <sipa> tends to produce
526 2018-06-21T19:37:53  <achow101> however it does help BnB find more exact matches
527 2018-06-21T19:38:06  <gmaxwell> Yes, but probably other strategies could do that.
528 2018-06-21T19:38:12  <sipa> but clearly not enough to compensate (as the total number of UTXOs grows)
529 2018-06-21T19:38:21  <gmaxwell> e.g. current algo but with a min_change that is randomized more.
530 2018-06-21T19:38:21  <luke-jr> aj: (do you have time to discuss rwconf stuff after the meeting if we run out of time during?)
531 2018-06-21T19:38:24  <jtimon> sorry I'm late, https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13311 is kind of blocking to me for the block signed testnets thing (assuming there's still interest in that) </offtopic>
532 2018-06-21T19:39:03  <gmaxwell> IIRC there is nothing fundimental about SRD that makes it good for making BNB work better, but rather it was the first alternative murch tried there.
533 2018-06-21T19:39:26  <aj> luke-jr: (yes, it's the start of my day here)
534 2018-06-21T19:39:34  <sipa> well and in murch's simulations, SRD performed reasoably well, and was extremely simple
535 2018-06-21T19:39:44  <sipa> though i guess we may be seeing different results now
536 2018-06-21T19:39:53  <gmaxwell> So for example, current solver plus add a couple extra inputs at random probably also makes BNB work better than current alone.
537 2018-06-21T19:40:45  <sipa> i'm wondering if instead of SRD, we shouldn't use a BNB algorithm with a very large target range, larger than minimal change
538 2018-06-21T19:41:11  <Murch> And then allow it to create change outputs?
539 2018-06-21T19:41:16  <sipa> Murch: indeed
540 2018-06-21T19:41:33  <sipa> Murch: basically run BNB in a mode where it assumes change will be created anyway
541 2018-06-21T19:41:40  <sipa> and then minimize waste for that
542 2018-06-21T19:41:56  <sipa> have you considered such a strategy?
543 2018-06-21T19:42:23  <gmaxwell> stratigies that minimize change values are bad for building a collection of coins that help BNB.
544 2018-06-21T19:42:26  <Murch> I have thought a bit about it, but figured that it is computationally intensive for no good reason
545 2018-06-21T19:42:38  <sipa> gmaxwell: minimizing change != minimizing waste
546 2018-06-21T19:42:48  <gmaxwell> sipa: what is 'waste'?
547 2018-06-21T19:43:12  <jonasschnelli> hi
548 2018-06-21T19:43:14  <Murch> Also, then you're just minimizing the input set since everything produces change and thus all with the same count of inputs have the same waste value
549 2018-06-21T19:43:23  <Murch> at least at higher fees
550 2018-06-21T19:43:29  <achow101> gmaxwell: line 36 of src/wallet/coinselection.cpp
551 2018-06-21T19:43:37  <sipa> gmaxwell: in this case, it means minimziing fees
552 2018-06-21T19:43:50  <Murch> Maybe one could just do smallest first selection at the lowest fee range to auto-consolidate?
553 2018-06-21T19:43:58  <sipa> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/wallet/coinselection.cpp#L36L40
554 2018-06-21T19:44:19  <gmaxwell> Murch: smallest first is pathalogical for wallets with tons of tiny inputs, unfortunately.
555 2018-06-21T19:44:19  <sipa> we probably shouldn't do algorithm design in this meeting, but ideas for things to try may be useful
556 2018-06-21T19:44:53  <Murch> Alright, maybe oldest first on the ones that are smaller than the target. ;)
557 2018-06-21T19:44:56  <gmaxwell> we can't have undefended pathological behavior, since we can't assume the usage will be supervised.
558 2018-06-21T19:45:08  <Murch> but it would have some sort of limit on transaction size
559 2018-06-21T19:45:40  <luke-jr> might be interesting to have coin selection pay attention to feerate estimates. use more inputs when feerates are low, for example. just a thought
560 2018-06-21T19:45:42  <gmaxwell> We could still have that mode, it would just have to be guarded by something that cuts off the pathalogical behavior.
561 2018-06-21T19:45:55  <Murch> gmaxwell: If smallest first is only used at < 4 sats/byte, why not auto-consolidate up to e.g. 250 unspents?
562 2018-06-21T19:46:00  <achow101> luke-jr: preferably the algorithm would be self adjusting to the feerates
563 2018-06-21T19:46:01  <sipa> luke-jr: it does
564 2018-06-21T19:46:09  <sipa> BNB at least does
565 2018-06-21T19:46:20  <Murch> ofc it would mean that a cpfp would be extremely expensive should it become necessary
566 2018-06-21T19:46:42  <Murch> luke-jr: the new fee estimation is already fee sensitive
567 2018-06-21T19:46:49  <luke-jr> i c
568 2018-06-21T19:46:52  <sipa> Murch: you mean coin selections
569 2018-06-21T19:46:59  <sipa> i would hope that fee estimation is fee sensitive :p
570 2018-06-21T19:47:00  <Murch> äh, I do
571 2018-06-21T19:47:42  <jonasschnelli> I have two topic proposal... but I guess I'm too late: a) Multiwallet session persistence b) Bech32X
572 2018-06-21T19:48:31  <achow101> perhaps this coin selection discussion would be better done in person with whiteboards
573 2018-06-21T19:48:34  <sipa> yeah
574 2018-06-21T19:48:40  <sipa> #topic multiwallet session persistence
575 2018-06-21T19:48:43  <Murch> I'm game
576 2018-06-21T19:48:45  <jonasschnelli> Okay...
577 2018-06-21T19:48:55  <luke-jr> ok, so I guess rwconf waits until after meeting :x
578 2018-06-21T19:49:00  <gmaxwell> achow101: that leaves out people who can't attend.
579 2018-06-21T19:49:07  <jonasschnelli> I guess it's not ideal that loaded wallets need to be re-loaded after a Bitcoin-Core restart...
580 2018-06-21T19:49:19  <jonasschnelli> especially in pruning mode
581 2018-06-21T19:49:20  <sipa> luke-jr, aj: i can make it a topic; it wasn't clear if you wanted it here
582 2018-06-21T19:49:26  <gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: so put them in the conf file?
583 2018-06-21T19:49:33  <luke-jr> sipa: almost out of time anyway
584 2018-06-21T19:49:35  <sipa> jonasschnelli: that sounds like something to address with rwconf
585 2018-06-21T19:49:37  <jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: that works for static enviromnents...
586 2018-06-21T19:49:50  <gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: not with rwconf.
587 2018-06-21T19:49:54  <luke-jr> gmaxwell: maybe not easy for GUI users (yet; rwconf to the rescue? :P)
588 2018-06-21T19:50:09  <jonasschnelli> rwconf would be indeed a solution, yes.
589 2018-06-21T19:50:24  <sipa> it seems like the exact same problem as the one rwconf is intended to solve
590 2018-06-21T19:50:37  <luke-jr> unless you wanted multiple different sessions, maybe?
591 2018-06-21T19:50:56  <luke-jr> but I'm not sure there's a use case for that
592 2018-06-21T19:51:43  <gmaxwell> seems out of scope to me.
593 2018-06-21T19:51:46  <jonasschnelli> Okay guess rw/config solves this... so /topic
594 2018-06-21T19:51:59  <sipa> #topic bech32x
595 2018-06-21T19:52:17  <jonasschnelli> Bech32X has currently the distance 27 BCH with correction to 7 chars (thanks to sipa)
596 2018-06-21T19:52:20  <jonasschnelli> The idea is now..
597 2018-06-21T19:52:32  <jonasschnelli> to have three "levels" or correction..
598 2018-06-21T19:52:58  <sipa> i'll gladly create code for that
599 2018-06-21T19:53:08  <jonasschnelli> I'd like to hear if this a) is "easy" possible (three generators) and b) if the use case makse sense (selective correction robusntess)?
600 2018-06-21T19:53:08  <sipa> i don't have strong opinions about usage
601 2018-06-21T19:53:21  <gmaxwell> I don't understand
602 2018-06-21T19:53:22  <gmaxwell> 12:52:32 < jonasschnelli> to have three "levels" or correction..
603 2018-06-21T19:53:29  <jonasschnelli> 7 chars is still not much more then 5% correction for 512bit key material
604 2018-06-21T19:53:47  <luke-jr> maybe correction level should be somehow defined as a % of the whole?
605 2018-06-21T19:53:53  <gmaxwell> Oh you want multiple codes so for long key data it uses a stronger code?
606 2018-06-21T19:53:57  <jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: a flexible checksum, either 7 chars or 14chars or 28 chars of correction
607 2018-06-21T19:54:07  <sipa> gmaxwell: or that the user can choose how much correction information they want
608 2018-06-21T19:54:13  <jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: either the length or the HRP does hint what code to use
609 2018-06-21T19:54:14  <sipa> (QR codes have this, for example)
610 2018-06-21T19:54:19  <jonasschnelli> Yes.
611 2018-06-21T19:54:21  <gmaxwell> It can't be 'flexible' without hurting performance, but we could just have more or less.
612 2018-06-21T19:54:27  <gmaxwell> through multiple codes.
613 2018-06-21T19:54:43  <sipa> yeah, i'm sure he just means have 3 codes to choose from
614 2018-06-21T19:54:49  <jonasschnelli> yes
615 2018-06-21T19:54:54  <gmaxwell> But I think it is not good to make it generally user selectable. The user _generally_ has no way to make a useful decision.
616 2018-06-21T19:55:13  <jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: Yes. I also thought this...
617 2018-06-21T19:55:16  <luke-jr> user in this case being the software I think
618 2018-06-21T19:55:19  <gmaxwell> But making the format support multiple codes seems okay to me though it might lower the odds that powerful fancy decoders get written, because it'll be more work.
619 2018-06-21T19:55:24  <jonasschnelli> On the other hand, maxing on 5% correction may also be not ideal
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621 2018-06-21T19:55:47  <sipa> gmaxwell: we can make sure they use the same field and extension, so that the majority of the recovery code can be shared
622 2018-06-21T19:55:58  <gmaxwell> There are certian improved properties we can get if we know a code will only be used for shorter vs longer data.
623 2018-06-21T19:56:13  <sipa> gmaxwell: not much as these levels of corrections (too large search space)
624 2018-06-21T19:56:37  <gmaxwell> so if the goal really was just to have multiple codes to have a certian percentage of correction that could perhaps be used.
625 2018-06-21T19:57:06  <gmaxwell> sipa: well we can still search for codes with improved performance over modest (e.g. 50 char) windows, giving better burst error handling.
626 2018-06-21T19:57:57  <sipa> we can even make the generators multiples of each other, so that a valid code according to one is also valid according to the "weaker" versions
627 2018-06-21T19:58:08  <gmaxwell> in any case, I assume sipa would come up with the codes.. fewer levels is better than more...
628 2018-06-21T19:58:09  <sipa> (or with a different offset, guarantee that this exactly never happens)
629 2018-06-21T19:59:00  <gmaxwell> sipa: if you're going to abandon beyond bch performance the difference codes could just be punctures of a single bigger one.
630 2018-06-21T19:59:20  <sipa> gmaxwell: right, i believe that's actually saying the same thing
631 2018-06-21T19:59:57  <sipa> gmaxwell: also, for distance 15 there is nothing we can grind, not even for short lengths
632 2018-06-21T20:00:09  <sipa> #endmeeting
633 2018-06-21T20:00:09  <lightningbot> Meeting ended Thu Jun 21 20:00:09 2018 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
634 2018-06-21T20:00:09  <lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2018/bitcoin-core-dev.2018-06-21-19.00.html
635 2018-06-21T20:00:09  <lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2018/bitcoin-core-dev.2018-06-21-19.00.txt
636 2018-06-21T20:00:09  <lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2018/bitcoin-core-dev.2018-06-21-19.00.log.html
637 2018-06-21T20:00:11  <sipa> #lunch
638 2018-06-21T20:00:11  <gmaxwell> It seems odd and a bit sad to have so much design freedom and not use it however.
639 2018-06-21T20:00:21  <luke-jr> sipa responds and runs :P
640 2018-06-21T20:00:29  *** nmnkgl has quit IRC
641 2018-06-21T20:00:33  <gmaxwell> will continue later.
642 2018-06-21T20:01:01  <luke-jr> =⃦topic rwconf (ping aj)
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644 2018-06-21T20:01:27  <gmaxwell> sipa: I wonder if we can at least choose the lower degree part of the code to have better performance.
645 2018-06-21T20:01:43  <sipa> gmaxwell: that's a good point
646 2018-06-21T20:01:44  <aj> luke-jr: yo
647 2018-06-21T20:01:53  <sipa> gmaxwell: we could just extend the bech32 generator for example
648 2018-06-21T20:01:59  <luke-jr> aj: did you read the log? http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2018/bitcoin-core-dev.2018-06-07-19.00.log.html#l-102
649 2018-06-21T20:03:20  <aj> luke-jr: yeah. the separate maps for cmdline and config were to preserve the flipped ordering behaviour
650 2018-06-21T20:03:57  <luke-jr> aj: do you have any objections to reverting it back to a single-value map + multi-value map?
651 2018-06-21T20:04:24  <luke-jr> (thereby resolving the ordering stuff at startup, rathre than runtime)
652 2018-06-21T20:05:14  <sipa> i think AddArg should get a flag indicating whether the option is single-value or multi-value, so that repeated arguments can be dealt with at parsing time
653 2018-06-21T20:05:19  * sipa afk
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655 2018-06-21T20:06:17  <luke-jr> sipa: IMO that makes sense, but best as a separate PR
656 2018-06-21T20:06:36  <aj> luke-jr: i don't think that quite works with prioritising the network stuff; ie atm it's "cmdline, [regtest], plainconfig"; but if you populate a single map with override first, then see a plain config option, then see regtest.foo=bah, you can't decide whether to drop the old entry or preserve it
657 2018-06-21T20:07:52  <luke-jr> hmm
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659 2018-06-21T20:08:11  <aj> luke-jr: long term i like (an approach like) meshcollider's arg rework stuff
660 2018-06-21T20:09:19  <aj> luke-jr: //github.com/MeshCollider/bitcoin/commits/201712_argument_registration maybe
661 2018-06-21T20:10:35  <aj> luke-jr: anyway, i don't object to changing around the map stuff, this was just the simplest way i could see of getting relatively sane behavior
662 2018-06-21T20:10:38  <luke-jr> aj: maybe the single map will need a flag indicating where it came from for now
663 2018-06-21T20:10:57  <aj> luke-jr: yeah, that's just equivalent to two maps :)
664 2018-06-21T20:11:41  <luke-jr> well, now we're getting into 4 sources - "cmdline, rwconf, [regtest], plainconfig"
665 2018-06-21T20:12:54  <aj> luke-jr: 3 sources if you count them as cmdline, rwconf, config[foo=/regtest.foo=/test.foo=/main.foo=]
666 2018-06-21T20:13:03  <aj> luke-jr: but yeah
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