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 74 2018-07-05T06:37:33  <kallewoof> Any idea why the linker would give 'undefined reference' even though the .a file containing the reference is included in the command?
 75 2018-07-05T06:37:42  <kallewoof> Also only happening in travis, not when building locally.
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 89 2018-07-05T07:12:00  <sipa> kallewoof: the order of arguments to the linker matters
 90 2018-07-05T07:13:31  <kallewoof> sipa: Yeah I know. I tried shuffling around, but it didn't help in this case.
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 93 2018-07-05T07:18:21  <kallewoof> sipa: What's weird about it is, this literally works on all machines on my end. Linux and mac. Only travis is failing. Linkers are flakey beasts...
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 96 2018-07-05T07:43:23  <kallewoof> Failure happens on ubuntu < 17.10 and >= 16.04 apparently. *shakes head* So random. At least I have a machine to work with now.
 97 2018-07-05T07:57:06  <kallewoof> Figured it out.
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104 2018-07-05T08:39:26  <swap> hi where is the mining algo stored on the repo? thanks.
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147 2018-07-05T11:25:54  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] AkioNak opened pull request #13598: fix bench/prevector.cpp (master...fix_bench_prevector) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13598
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149 2018-07-05T11:34:58  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/b77c38e06c7f...40334c71d617
150 2018-07-05T11:34:58  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 49d1f4c Chun Kuan Lee: Detect if char equals int8_t
151 2018-07-05T11:34:59  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 40334c7 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #13580: build: Detect if char equals int8_t...
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154 2018-07-05T11:35:53  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #13580: build: Detect if char equals int8_t (master...int8_t-char-is_same) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13580
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191 2018-07-05T15:19:20  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 5 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/40334c71d617...028b0d963c99
192 2018-07-05T15:19:21  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master b6edb4f Andrew Chow: Inline Sign1 and SignN...
193 2018-07-05T15:19:22  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 0422beb Andrew Chow: Make SignatureData able to store signatures and scripts...
194 2018-07-05T15:19:22  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master ed94c8b Andrew Chow: Replace CombineSignatures with ProduceSignature...
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196 2018-07-05T15:20:11  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #13425: Moving final scriptSig construction from CombineSignatures to ProduceSignature (PSBT signer logic) (master...sigdata-partial-sigs) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13425
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200 2018-07-05T15:54:26  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 9 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/028b0d963c99...3dc2dcfdfc0b
201 2018-07-05T15:54:27  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master f7c7f8e John Newbery: [tests] p2p_segwit: Fix flake8 warnings.
202 2018-07-05T15:54:28  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 94a0134 John Newbery: [tests] p2p_segwit: standardise comments/docstrings.
203 2018-07-05T15:54:28  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2af4e39 John Newbery: [tests] p2p_segwit: re-order function definitions....
204 2018-07-05T15:55:08  *** d9b4bef9 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
205 2018-07-05T15:55:14  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #13467: [Tests] Make p2p_segwit easier to debug (master...tidy_up_p2p_segwit) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13467
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210 2018-07-05T16:13:12  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/3dc2dcfdfc0b...c9eb8d1c5503
211 2018-07-05T16:13:13  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2dcd7b4 mruddy: logging: avoid nStart may be used uninitialized in AppInitMain warning
212 2018-07-05T16:13:13  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master c9eb8d1 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #13577: logging: avoid nStart may be used uninitialized in AppInitMain warning...
213 2018-07-05T16:14:01  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #13577: logging: avoid nStart may be used uninitialized in AppInitMain warning (master...dev1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13577
214 2018-07-05T16:41:27  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/c9eb8d1c5503...062738cf69a2
215 2018-07-05T16:41:27  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2f1a30c Johnson Lau: Fix MAX_STANDARD_TX_WEIGHT check...
216 2018-07-05T16:41:28  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 062738c Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #13096: [Policy] Fix MAX_STANDARD_TX_WEIGHT check...
217 2018-07-05T16:41:57  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #13096: [Policy] Fix MAX_STANDARD_TX_WEIGHT check (master...max_std_tx_weight) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13096
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226 2018-07-05T17:40:46  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/062738cf69a2...287e4edc2fd2
227 2018-07-05T17:40:47  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 98b1813 Karl-Johan Alm: [build] Tune wildcards for LIBSECP256K1 target...
228 2018-07-05T17:40:47  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 287e4ed Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #12788: [build] Tune wildcards for LIBSECP256K1 target...
229 2018-07-05T17:41:22  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #12788: [build] Tune wildcards for LIBSECP256K1 target (master...build-tune-libsecp256k1-wildcards) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12788
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242 2018-07-05T18:42:40  <gmaxwell> petertodd: re: removing the minimum relay fee entirely.. I think to do that we'd need to eliminate time based mempool expiration, implement mempool sync, and probably reduce mempool sizes.
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244 2018-07-05T18:43:46  <gmaxwell> petertodd: the issue is that if we just remove the limit, what will happen is that during quiet periods the limit will effectively become zero (or close enough to it) then a bunch of spam will flood in and get relayed, then expire before it gets mined.
245 2018-07-05T18:44:06  <gmaxwell> so then a bunch of bandwidth will be wasted on things with no realistic chance of getting mined.
246 2018-07-05T18:45:20  <gmaxwell> If expiration were gone, and we actively synced, the network would keep a constant queue, and then that would keep the rates from falling. ... and then maybe that would be enough. maybe.
247 2018-07-05T18:46:14  <gmaxwell> ISTM that doing not what you said, and just lowering it 2x or 10x or whatever, would be a lot simpler.
248 2018-07-05T18:52:35  <provoostenator> gmaxwell: how long is mempool expiration? It takes 1 day to mine a 300 MB mempool if the spammer uses SegWit, which I guess they wouldn't...
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250 2018-07-05T18:57:57  <gmaxwell> provoostenator: it takes 1 day to mine a 300 MB if no more transactions are coming in!
251 2018-07-05T18:59:15  <gmaxwell> it takes infinitely long to mine a 300 MB mempool if there is a flux of higher fee txn equal to the network capacity.
252 2018-07-05T19:00:11  <gmaxwell> Expiration right now is two weeks.
253 2018-07-05T19:00:13  <wumpus> #startmeeting
254 2018-07-05T19:00:13  <lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Jul  5 19:00:13 2018 UTC.  The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
255 2018-07-05T19:00:13  <lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
256 2018-07-05T19:00:24  <provoostenator> Hi
257 2018-07-05T19:00:47  <gmaxwell> Hi.
258 2018-07-05T19:00:51  <wumpus> can someone else paste the name list I don't have it handy
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260 2018-07-05T19:01:07  <wumpus> proposed topics?
261 2018-07-05T19:01:19  <provoostenator> Topic suggestion: alternating meeting time
262 2018-07-05T19:01:47  <wumpus> #topic High priority for review
263 2018-07-05T19:01:50  <provoostenator> And maybe topic suggestion: Min relay fee
264 2018-07-05T19:01:52  <aj> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr btcdrak sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag provoostenator
265 2018-07-05T19:02:05  <wumpus> looks like there is only one thing left: #12196
266 2018-07-05T19:02:08  <cfields> hi
267 2018-07-05T19:02:11  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/12196 | Add scantxoutset RPC method by jonasschnelli · Pull Request #12196 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
268 2018-07-05T19:02:17  <wumpus> any suggestions?
269 2018-07-05T19:03:05  *** sakalli has quit IRC
270 2018-07-05T19:03:12  <wumpus> reminder that the 0.17 feature freeze is 2018-07-16, so in roughly a week
271 2018-07-05T19:03:20  <wumpus> #link 0.17 release schedule https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/12624
272 2018-07-05T19:03:20  <sipa> oh wow
273 2018-07-05T19:03:28  <sipa> thanks for reminding us
274 2018-07-05T19:03:38  *** sakalli has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
275 2018-07-05T19:03:42  <promag_> §shi
276 2018-07-05T19:03:55  <wumpus> so if there are features that still need to make it in, we certainly have to make them high prio for review
277 2018-07-05T19:04:21  <gmaxwell> sipa: Is #12196 'compatible' in what it matches with your new work on wallet scanning?   I haven't looked at that PR for a while, but I recall that at one point it expected you to provide pubkeys as the thing you scan for.
278 2018-07-05T19:04:26  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/12196 | Add scantxoutset RPC method by jonasschnelli · Pull Request #12196 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
279 2018-07-05T19:04:31  <aj> wumpus: #13547 or #12458 would be nice to have for 0.17, as would #13072 (though that needs a rebase now)
280 2018-07-05T19:04:32  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/13547 | Make signrawtransaction* give an error when amount is needed but missing by ajtowns · Pull Request #13547 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
281 2018-07-05T19:04:34  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/13072 | Update createmultisig RPC to support segwit by ajtowns · Pull Request #13072 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
282 2018-07-05T19:04:35  <provoostenator> I'd like to get #11658
283 2018-07-05T19:04:36  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/12458 | Enforce that amount is provided for signrawtransaction prevtxs by Empact · Pull Request #12458 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
284 2018-07-05T19:04:39  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11658 | During IBD, when doing pruning, prune 10% extra to avoid pruning again soon after by luke-jr · Pull Request #11658 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
285 2018-07-05T19:04:41  <wumpus> gmaxwell: the xpub stuff was removed for that reason
286 2018-07-05T19:04:43  <sipa> gmaxwell: yes, discussed in previous meeting
287 2018-07-05T19:04:47  <gmaxwell> sipa: Thanks!
288 2018-07-05T19:04:55  *** sakalli has quit IRC
289 2018-07-05T19:04:59  <wumpus> so that when it gets added it's compatible with sipa's proposal
290 2018-07-05T19:05:10  <sipa> i'm almost done with an implementation for "output descriptors" which we'll just be able to plug into scantxoutset
291 2018-07-05T19:05:24  <wumpus> nice!
292 2018-07-05T19:05:41  <sipa> i'd very much like to see PSBT in 0.17
293 2018-07-05T19:05:42  <wumpus> aj: ok, thanks
294 2018-07-05T19:05:49  <wumpus> me too
295 2018-07-05T19:05:52  <wumpus> I'll add that to high priority
296 2018-07-05T19:06:00  *** anome has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
297 2018-07-05T19:06:07  <achow101> wumpus: #13557 for high prio please (psbt)
298 2018-07-05T19:06:14  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/13557 | BIP 174 PSBT Serializations and RPCs by achow101 · Pull Request #13557 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
299 2018-07-05T19:06:32  <gmaxwell> +1
300 2018-07-05T19:06:56  <nmnkgl> #13298
301 2018-07-05T19:06:58  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/13298 | Net: Random delays *per network group* to obfuscate transaction time by naumenkogs · Pull Request #13298 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
302 2018-07-05T19:07:02  <wumpus> achow101: done
303 2018-07-05T19:07:28  <nmnkgl> This is probably for high prio.
304 2018-07-05T19:07:30  <wumpus> so does aeveryone agree with the PRs that aj proposes?
305 2018-07-05T19:07:44  <wumpus> nmnkgl: I think that needs a lot of discussion still
306 2018-07-05T19:07:50  <wumpus> nmnkgl: there's some security worries
307 2018-07-05T19:08:10  *** sakalli has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
308 2018-07-05T19:08:13  <wumpus> nmnkgl: agree it's important, but not something to rush for 0.17
309 2018-07-05T19:08:39  <wumpus> though if other people think so I'm happy to concede
310 2018-07-05T19:08:51  *** sakalli has quit IRC
311 2018-07-05T19:08:53  <sipa> i think sdaftuar and nmnkgl have worked it out pretty much
312 2018-07-05T19:09:02  <gmaxwell> I think that 13298 is basically done? no?
313 2018-07-05T19:09:20  *** Randolf has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
314 2018-07-05T19:09:24  <nmnkgl> I think it is.
315 2018-07-05T19:09:33  <wumpus> ok
316 2018-07-05T19:09:37  <gmaxwell> I'm always happy to see stuff like that get out sooner rather than later, since it'll take months for its effects on the network to be observed.
317 2018-07-05T19:09:41  <wumpus> adding it for review then
318 2018-07-05T19:09:41  *** r-f has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
319 2018-07-05T19:10:40  <sipa> nmnkgl: rebase it though
320 2018-07-05T19:10:51  <Randolf> Hello.
321 2018-07-05T19:11:16  <r-f> hello. any chance for #13414 gitlab support, it's like 2 screens of python only (plus comments)
322 2018-07-05T19:11:18  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/13414 | Support gitlab API in github-merge.py by rfree-d · Pull Request #13414 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
323 2018-07-05T19:13:13  *** sakalli has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
324 2018-07-05T19:13:28  <wumpus> r-f: yes, makes sense, but not relevant to 0.17 I think
325 2018-07-05T19:13:39  <sipa> yeah, that seems independent of releases
326 2018-07-05T19:13:53  <wumpus> ok added al the PRs mentioned by aj too
327 2018-07-05T19:14:06  <wumpus> that means he now has two things on the high priority list though
328 2018-07-05T19:14:20  <wumpus> sipa: right
329 2018-07-05T19:14:21  <sipa> i'll do an effort to review all of them
330 2018-07-05T19:14:31  <sipa> (so ack from me on that)
331 2018-07-05T19:14:35  <wumpus> ok :)
332 2018-07-05T19:15:07  *** setpill has quit IRC
333 2018-07-05T19:15:12  <wumpus> #topic Alternating meeting time
334 2018-07-05T19:15:23  <wumpus> (provoostenator)
335 2018-07-05T19:15:41  <provoostenator> My suggestino would be something trivial, e.g. alternate by 12 hours every week
336 2018-07-05T19:16:08  <provoostenator> e.g. 9:00 and 19:00 UTC
337 2018-07-05T19:16:20  <provoostenator> (uhh, 7:00 UTC and 19:00 UTC)
338 2018-07-05T19:16:49  <wumpus> sgtm
339 2018-07-05T19:17:19  <provoostenator> With the day such that it is thursday morning Asia
340 2018-07-05T19:17:47  <sipa> 7 UTC is pretty bad for eastcoast, though any time will hurt someone
341 2018-07-05T19:17:49  <aj> thursday evening asia?
342 2018-07-05T19:17:58  <provoostenator> Sorry, yes, what aj says.
343 2018-07-05T19:18:13  <aj> (it's friday morning australia/asia now, 700 utc thursday is thursday afternoon)
344 2018-07-05T19:18:20  <wumpus> sipa: yes, it would be alternatingly bad for asia and eastcoast then
345 2018-07-05T19:18:26  <achow101> I tend to nack alternating meeting times as that will confuse people and result in probably less attendance as people either forget or get the meeting time switched
346 2018-07-05T19:18:49  *** grafcaps has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
347 2018-07-05T19:19:25  <gmaxwell> unfortunately there is no alternating scheme where a large group of regulars aren't impacted.
348 2018-07-05T19:19:27  <luke-jr> sipa: depends on who would otherwise come
349 2018-07-05T19:19:57  <achow101> 7 UTC is bad for americas in general
350 2018-07-05T19:20:08  <sipa> midnight westcoast, 3am eastcoast
351 2018-07-05T19:20:20  <cfields> I'm ok with awkward east-coast times, but I assume I'm in the minority
352 2018-07-05T19:20:52  <wumpus> the problem is that the people in favor of the time will likely not be here now
353 2018-07-05T19:21:00  <wumpus> it's unfair :-)
354 2018-07-05T19:21:00  <phantomcircuit> probably just need a list of everybody who is likely to attend and their timezone to figure this one out
355 2018-07-05T19:21:07  <phantomcircuit> wumpus, lul
356 2018-07-05T19:21:08  <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: it's bad regardless.
357 2018-07-05T19:21:11  *** belcher_ has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
358 2018-07-05T19:21:33  *** SopaXorzTaker has quit IRC
359 2018-07-05T19:21:34  <clarkmoody> Is there a way to have an Asia meeting prior to the Europe/USA meeting and review minutes prior to this one?
360 2018-07-05T19:21:36  <gmaxwell> sdaftuar: morcos: I'm guessing you're not going to be showing up between 3am and 4am.
361 2018-07-05T19:21:38  <gmaxwell> :P
362 2018-07-05T19:21:40  <phantomcircuit> i more meant for figuring out the time rather than doing an alternating schedule
363 2018-07-05T19:21:41  <aj> a 3-phase cycle of 8 hours ought to make everyone able to attend 2 of 3 meetings :-/
364 2018-07-05T19:21:58  <wumpus> we're getting kicked out here
365 2018-07-05T19:22:04  <wumpus> can someone else take the chair please
366 2018-07-05T19:22:15  <sipa> endmeeting and i'll start a new one
367 2018-07-05T19:22:21  <wumpus> #endmeeting
368 2018-07-05T19:22:21  <lightningbot> Meeting ended Thu Jul  5 19:22:21 2018 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
369 2018-07-05T19:22:21  <lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2018/bitcoin-core-dev.2018-07-05-19.00.html
370 2018-07-05T19:22:21  <lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2018/bitcoin-core-dev.2018-07-05-19.00.txt
371 2018-07-05T19:22:21  <lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2018/bitcoin-core-dev.2018-07-05-19.00.log.html
372 2018-07-05T19:22:24  <sipa> #startmeeting
373 2018-07-05T19:22:24  <lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Jul  5 19:22:24 2018 UTC.  The chair is sipa. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
374 2018-07-05T19:22:24  <lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
375 2018-07-05T19:22:34  <sipa> The meeting is dead. Long live the meeting.
376 2018-07-05T19:22:49  <cfields> heh, mutiny is afoot
377 2018-07-05T19:23:05  <sipa> what would an 8-hour rotation thing look like?
378 2018-07-05T19:23:21  <sipa> 3:00, 11:00, 19:00 UTC
379 2018-07-05T19:23:46  *** Fearful has quit IRC
380 2018-07-05T19:24:02  <sipa> it's probably too confusing...
381 2018-07-05T19:24:04  <gmaxwell> probably rather than discussing this here someone should go make some proposals (including times in common timezones).
382 2018-07-05T19:24:33  <cfields> those annoying doodle availability polls handle this really well.
383 2018-07-05T19:24:56  <sipa> cfields just volunteered? :)
384 2018-07-05T19:25:16  <cfields> sipa: sure, I'll take a crack at it.
385 2018-07-05T19:25:25  <gmaxwell> that would be good data.
386 2018-07-05T19:25:34  <cfields> as much as people move around, we could potentially re-vote each week and just have a dynamic time-slot...
387 2018-07-05T19:25:40  <gmaxwell> ugh
388 2018-07-05T19:25:42  <cfields> dunno if that'd be too chaotic
389 2018-07-05T19:25:46  <sipa> yes.
390 2018-07-05T19:25:51  <gmaxwell> I'd never remember.
391 2018-07-05T19:25:56  <achow101> way too confusing
392 2018-07-05T19:26:04  <sipa> i already miss meetings when i'm traveling
393 2018-07-05T19:26:26  <cfields> k, fair enough. Will keep it simple.
394 2018-07-05T19:26:30  <achow101> I already miss meetings when not traveling
395 2018-07-05T19:26:33  <sipa> any other topics?
396 2018-07-05T19:27:46  <sipa> #topic Min relay fee (provoostenator)
397 2018-07-05T19:27:52  <gmaxwell> Someone was suggesting minrelay fee. There was a conversation on twitter I was commenting about.
398 2018-07-05T19:27:55  <gmaxwell> that.
399 2018-07-05T19:28:39  <booyah> vote on-chain for the time by donating to one of 24 addresses \o/
400 2018-07-05T19:28:54  <sipa> good idea
401 2018-07-05T19:28:59  * sipa creates 24 addresses!
402 2018-07-05T19:29:00  <gmaxwell> I'm not sure how much there is to say, really our infrastructure is setup to have a minimum.  The amount of relay-spam per $ tends to infinity as the fee goes to zero.
403 2018-07-05T19:29:51  <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I think the idea was that mempool size limits would effectively limit the amount and set an automatic min relay fee based on demand
404 2018-07-05T19:29:55  <sipa> min-relay-fee has limited impact, because if tx rate goes up as a result, dynamic feerate kicks in
405 2018-07-05T19:29:57  <gmaxwell> I admit that I kinda want to decrease it just to get people to stop thinking "1" is special.
406 2018-07-05T19:30:05  <sipa> but min incremental fee isn't
407 2018-07-05T19:30:15  <sipa> that's a fundamental relay cost metric
408 2018-07-05T19:30:17  <gmaxwell> sipa: yes, though not when the mempool limits are too large.
409 2018-07-05T19:30:44  <gmaxwell> The last time I saw a non-zero automatic min relay fee was months ago, IIRC.
410 2018-07-05T19:31:36  <gmaxwell> lack of mempool sync also exacerbates this... even if there is enough data to fill, any given node won't have been online long enough to have it.
411 2018-07-05T19:31:47  *** Tralfaz has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
412 2018-07-05T19:31:55  <aj> gmaxwell: going from 1 to 0.5 or 0.1 would be nice, i've seen suggestions it doesn't work right in the code somewhere though?
413 2018-07-05T19:32:07  <gmaxwell> aj: those suggestions were confused.
414 2018-07-05T19:32:11  <gmaxwell> it's fine.
415 2018-07-05T19:32:20  <gmaxwell> units in bitcoin are in sat per 1000 bytes...
416 2018-07-05T19:32:25  <booyah> 0.5 sat/byte? then everyone will assume thisis still the magic 1, but halved "because segwit" :)
417 2018-07-05T19:32:32  <gmaxwell> the "1s/b" thing is something varrious websites came up with.
418 2018-07-05T19:33:01  <aj> yeah, my node's been set at 50s/kB for a while, but everything it connects to is 1000s/kB so it doesn't do much
419 2018-07-05T19:33:10  <gmaxwell> aj: and even if the units internally were an issue, it would be trivial to go around and rescale them.
420 2018-07-05T19:33:55  <sipa> we internally represent everything as sat/kB
421 2018-07-05T19:34:05  <booyah> fun fact, there are wallet like Mycelium that sometimes misscalculate and when preparing 1S/B tx, end up with 0.97.. S/B actuall tx and can not broadcast it currently
422 2018-07-05T19:34:41  <achow101> booyah: really? they should fix that
423 2018-07-05T19:34:41  <gmaxwell> booyah: How the heck do they do that?
424 2018-07-05T19:34:46  <aj> yeah, xapo had a bug where the sigs were slightly bigger than estimated, and 1s/B target ended up at 0.9something s/B and wouldn't propogate
425 2018-07-05T19:34:52  <gmaxwell> ...
426 2018-07-05T19:35:02  <gmaxwell> ah, they have the wrong number for the worst case sig size.
427 2018-07-05T19:35:05  <booyah> gmaxwell: achow101 dunno why, just seen it happen. AFAIR it eventually worked out when manually broadcasting from core after really long time
428 2018-07-05T19:35:05  <aj> yep
429 2018-07-05T19:35:07  <achow101> gmaxwell: sigs larger than expected probably. I had this problem once with coin selection simulations
430 2018-07-05T19:35:08  <luke-jr> not sure that's something we can fix for them
431 2018-07-05T19:35:31  <gmaxwell> they probably just took the size of the first sig they saw, rather than using the actual worst case.
432 2018-07-05T19:35:39  <luke-jr> if it was 0.5 s/B, they'd end up with 0.49
433 2018-07-05T19:35:53  <gmaxwell> yea, nothing we do will fix that, I was just curious. :P
434 2018-07-05T19:36:46  <aj> https://www.blockchain.com/en/btc/tx/7f6d969774a6806ed136f892ad3ae8a32ba1dd55378942a00d117ca2837431b1
435 2018-07-05T19:37:08  <aj> having a backlog of fees so the target isn't also the minimum would fix it :)
436 2018-07-05T19:37:13  <aj> backlog of txes i mean
437 2018-07-05T19:37:42  <gmaxwell> In any case, I don't see any harm in halving it. it would probably be prudent, esp as the bitcoin price has stably been something like 6x higher than the ATH at the time the current value was set.
438 2018-07-05T19:37:54  <booyah> gmaxwell: people whill think it is halved "due to segwit, hurrr"
439 2018-07-05T19:38:04  <booyah> 0.4 or 0.6 "fixes" that, if you care for it
440 2018-07-05T19:38:08  <gmaxwell> booyah: oh well, can't cure stupid. :P
441 2018-07-05T19:38:17  <luke-jr> IMO, unless we're going to aim for a minrelayfee-less design, it's a mostly harmless opportunity to let users campaign to have other users change the setting instead of using centrally-planned defaults; and if the default is changed, it'd be best to let some user PR it instead of a regular dev
442 2018-07-05T19:38:28  <booyah> already there is confusing is it s/VB or s/B
443 2018-07-05T19:38:40  <sipa> luke-jr: it reduces compact block relay efficiency though
444 2018-07-05T19:38:49  <achow101> booyah: everything in core is s/vb IIRC
445 2018-07-05T19:38:52  <sipa> node operators generally have an incentive to pick the same values as miners
446 2018-07-05T19:39:04  <booyah> and above you said "sat/kB" :P see, everyone is confused about this
447 2018-07-05T19:39:17  <luke-jr> sipa: vice-versa; miners have an incentive to pick the same as users
448 2018-07-05T19:39:24  <gmaxwell> luke-jr: Trying to make things work minrelayfeeless is probably not worsth the effort.
449 2018-07-05T19:39:38  <sipa> 1 sat/vB is already very low
450 2018-07-05T19:39:42  <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I tend to agree
451 2018-07-05T19:39:48  <sipa> (my personal opinion)
452 2018-07-05T19:39:50  <gmaxwell> There is a bunch of stupid behavior that having a low but non-zero minimum avoids.
453 2018-07-05T19:40:20  <sipa> booyah: fees are always with vbytes, i don't mention the "v"
454 2018-07-05T19:41:07  <gmaxwell> I think at least half the benefit of decreasing it would be just shaking this idea that 1 is special. :P
455 2018-07-05T19:41:35  <aj> sipa: in dollar terms, median fee rate was lower prior to about july 2016 (2c/tx versus 10c/tx) per https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin-median_transaction_fee.html#log fwiw
456 2018-07-05T19:41:37  <luke-jr> anyway, UASF showed that users will take action when they need to; I think encouraging such user-driven action would be a good thing
457 2018-07-05T19:41:41  <gmaxwell> but also because the mempool is frequently empty now. Some more consolation might be encouraged at lower feerates.
458 2018-07-05T19:41:48  <booyah> as an user, I can confirm it would fix that idea. (though 0.4 might be better)
459 2018-07-05T19:41:52  <luke-jr> especially when the side effects of disagreement are harmless
460 2018-07-05T19:42:10  <gmaxwell> aj: keep in mind that segwit signnificantly reduced transaction vsizes for users that use it.
461 2018-07-05T19:42:29  <aj> gmaxwell: this chart is per transaction, not per size aiui
462 2018-07-05T19:42:33  <gmaxwell> luke-jr: I don't think there is 'need' here at all.
463 2018-07-05T19:42:37  <sipa> so what are we discussing here?
464 2018-07-05T19:42:39  <aj> gmaxwell: (i haven't checked the numbers myself)
465 2018-07-05T19:43:00  <gmaxwell> aj: well then that charts useless, because e.g. it would say fees went up when users simply started batching instead of behaving stupidly.
466 2018-07-05T19:43:08  <aj> gmaxwell: sure
467 2018-07-05T19:43:10  <sipa> my personal opinion is that it's fine to encourage people to look into this and choose their own minima, but there's really not a big deal
468 2018-07-05T19:43:45  <gmaxwell> sipa: dunno. people noticing the mempool frequently being near empty, suggested lowering the fee. PT suggested doing nothing unless eliminating it entirely, and I think that it would be a waste of time to try to do that.
469 2018-07-05T19:43:50  <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I agree; the need however is not common, so encouraging users to act when only desire rather than need may be good
470 2018-07-05T19:43:50  <aj> sipa: without nodes actively using min fee rate to choose who to peer with, user choice seems pointless?
471 2018-07-05T19:44:35  <luke-jr> aj: that assumes >7/8 won't change it
472 2018-07-05T19:44:44  *** anome has quit IRC
473 2018-07-05T19:44:46  <gmaxwell> and since the bitcoin price has consistently been up a lot compared to in the past, even considering the segwit offset, it didn't seem unreasonable to me to lower it some.
474 2018-07-05T19:44:58  <sipa> okay
475 2018-07-05T19:45:46  <sipa> someone suggest something and create a PR?
476 2018-07-05T19:46:03  <gmaxwell> K.
477 2018-07-05T19:46:24  <sipa> °C.
478 2018-07-05T19:46:31  <Varunram> lol
479 2018-07-05T19:46:47  <sipa> any other topics?
480 2018-07-05T19:46:56  <gmaxwell> I'll PR doing something around halving it. (maybe I'll take booyah's 60% suggestion, I'll research what bitcoin price was when it got set where it was, and factor in segwit, yadda yadda)
481 2018-07-05T19:48:05  *** Fearful has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
482 2018-07-05T19:48:20  *** Fearful is now known as Guest20586
483 2018-07-05T19:49:07  <sipa> going once
484 2018-07-05T19:49:12  <achow101> *crickets*
485 2018-07-05T19:49:56  <r-f> ~.~.~.~.
486 2018-07-05T19:50:00  *** r-f has quit IRC
487 2018-07-05T19:50:01  <sipa> going twice
488 2018-07-05T19:51:21  <sipa> #endmeeting
489 2018-07-05T19:51:21  <lightningbot> Meeting ended Thu Jul  5 19:51:21 2018 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
490 2018-07-05T19:51:21  <lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2018/bitcoin-core-dev.2018-07-05-19.22.html
491 2018-07-05T19:51:21  <lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2018/bitcoin-core-dev.2018-07-05-19.22.txt
492 2018-07-05T19:51:21  <lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2018/bitcoin-core-dev.2018-07-05-19.22.log.html
493 2018-07-05T19:52:06  <aj> fwiw UTC: 03/11/19 -> Sydney: 13/21/05, Tokyo: 12/20/04, India: 0830/1630/0030, Europe 05/13/21, NYC 23/07/15, LAX 20/04/12  (nb: northern-hemisphere daylight savings)
494 2018-07-05T19:53:07  <provoostenator> (back, had to leave for physical reasons)
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498 2018-07-05T20:02:01  <provoostenator> minrelay fee has been 1 for a long time so in a way it _is_ special. In particular if the wallet also allows lower values, users might end up with stuck transactions because none of their peers relay them.
499 2018-07-05T20:02:32  <provoostenator> Which is made worse by incomplete RBF functionality. So wallet should probabyl hold on to this magic 1 value for a bit longer.
500 2018-07-05T20:03:28  <aj> provoostenator: shouldn't the fee estimator keep the 1 value in that case anyway?
501 2018-07-05T20:03:46  <provoostenator> No, 0.5 might get mined for folks who are well connected.
502 2018-07-05T20:04:17  <aj> provoostenator: if you're well connected, that's fine; if you didn't see it in the mempool before it got mined because you're not well connected, also fine?
503 2018-07-05T20:04:33  <provoostenator> Ok, but the current fee estimator isn't that smart, is it?
504 2018-07-05T20:04:47  <aj> think it is
505 2018-07-05T20:05:14  <provoostenator> Let me look at the documentation... :-P
506 2018-07-05T20:07:31  <provoostenator> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/wallet/fees.cpp#L38
507 2018-07-05T20:09:51  <provoostenator> I've actually shot myself in the foot a while ago by having one node (A) exclusively connect to a gateway node (B) which had 1.2 sat/byte as a minimum , while the fee estimator of (A) thought 1 sat/byte would be fine.
508 2018-07-05T20:10:43  <provoostenator> I may however have ignored the fee estimator and checked the minimum fee box instead, still.
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510 2018-07-05T20:11:13  <aj> oh, that's a good point
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512 2018-07-05T20:11:49  <provoostenator> It could be solved if the wallet indeed was smart enough to warn "Although miner fees are low, there is not a single transaction in your mempool at the fee rate you're trying to use, it may get stuck"
513 2018-07-05T20:12:14  <aj> even if it didn't get stuck, you'd get that behaviour if miners were getting lots of fees out-of-band
514 2018-07-05T20:12:49  <aj> well similar behaviour
515 2018-07-05T20:13:08  <provoostenator> Yes, but out-of-band fees seem less common for now than blog posts with "tips how to spend less on bitcoin fees".
516 2018-07-05T20:13:35  <aj> yeah, sorry; i mean "such a warning might be relevant even when you're well connected"
517 2018-07-05T20:13:47  <provoostenator> Yes
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519 2018-07-05T20:14:36  <provoostenator> I assume peers don't and shouldn't announce their relay fees due to fingerprinting concerns?
520 2018-07-05T20:15:04  <aj> peers already announce their min fees so you can avoid sending them txes they'll ignore
521 2018-07-05T20:15:07  <sipa> they do announce dynamic fees
522 2018-07-05T20:15:20  <sipa> bip 133
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524 2018-07-05T20:15:46  <provoostenator> Can that be made cumulative somehow? Like they announce min(their dynamic fee, n degrees dynamic fee)
525 2018-07-05T20:17:02  <sipa> that seems exploitable
526 2018-07-05T20:17:20  <provoostenator> Yeah, and I guess it could also get stuck.
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528 2018-07-05T20:20:33  <aj> provoostenator: max(my-dynamic-fee, 0.9*min(peers-dynamic-fees)) or something could be amusing i guess?
529 2018-07-05T20:23:55  <provoostenator> When mempool isn't full it's probably easiest to just use the lowest fee found in it as the threshold where the wallet warns the user. More tricky if it's full.
530 2018-07-05T20:25:08  <provoostenator> Right now I think it doesn't warn anyway if the user selects a fee that's lower than what their own mempool accepts.
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