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 35 2018-09-03T05:18:15  <kallewoof> I'm amazed you guys let that go on for as long as it did.
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 43 2018-09-03T06:22:44  <wumpus> i was baffled, as in "it couldn't be *this* bad, right"
 44 2018-09-03T06:23:30  <wumpus> despite all the rumors about toxicity in bitcoin development we have really very little drama compared to other large projects
 45 2018-09-03T06:26:48  *** ken2812221_ has quit IRC
 46 2018-09-03T06:34:01  <luke-jr> heh
 47 2018-09-03T06:34:43  <luke-jr> I wonder if it had gone further, if he would have demanded that payment is required for merging, via copyright stuff
 48 2018-09-03T06:35:24  <luke-jr> (which tbh wouldn't be an entirely terrible idea for open source, but it just isn't acceptable in the current practice)
 49 2018-09-03T06:35:52  <luke-jr> (thinking, if contributors and reviewers could put a $ amount on PRs, and then users paid to get them merged when ready)
 50 2018-09-03T06:36:00  <luke-jr> s/$/BTC/ obviously
 51 2018-09-03T06:37:13  <wumpus> there's the implicit requirement to submit a patch to an open source project, that it is available under the same license
 52 2018-09-03T06:38:06  <wumpus> so in any case, such a thing would have to be coordinated outside of github, beforehand
 53 2018-09-03T06:39:59  <wumpus> e.g. do a closed-source demo of something, and only if you have >X mBTC/$ in donations, release it as open source
 54 2018-09-03T06:40:30  <wumpus> I've seen this done for some music-related software, never for cryptocurrency things though :)
 55 2018-09-03T06:45:20  <wumpus> it works better if a development model revolves around plugins instead of patches
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 58 2018-09-03T06:49:49  <luke-jr> wumpus: I think it wouldn't work for us regardless, simply because of the review bottleneck
 59 2018-09-03T06:49:58  <wumpus> right
 60 2018-09-03T06:50:29  <wumpus> pay for review would be interesting, though also very corruption prone
 61 2018-09-03T06:52:05  <luke-jr> pay-for-review doesn't seem too unreasonable right now even, actually
 62 2018-09-03T06:52:18  <luke-jr> I wouldn't have any complaint with users posting bounties to get PRs they like reviewed sooner
 63 2018-09-03T06:53:26  <wumpus> I'd again prefer this to be coordinated outside github
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 76 2018-09-03T09:03:42  <provoostenator> I put a few bounties on Bountysource a while ago, that seems the right way to coordinate these kinds of things, although I've only had limited success.
 77 2018-09-03T09:04:03  <provoostenator> And it doesn't help that they were eaten up by some ICO with too much money.
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 84 2018-09-03T10:06:25  <wumpus> bountysource supports bitcoin? TIL
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131 2018-09-03T14:42:32  <wumpus> oh, through coinbase...
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147 2018-09-03T17:24:46  <Salve> Why does bitcoin use sha-512?
148 2018-09-03T17:24:51  <Salve> o.O
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158 2018-09-03T18:04:46  <rafalcpp> sipa: seems parts of his code disappeared from git? or is github acting up. following parts of that discussion re 14090 and getting into places like https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14090/files/9cc9bd700e92486189695ea1cb6edafd714cb33b and github says not found
159 2018-09-03T18:06:32  <maitra> bitcoind in regtest mode giving out empty responses to libbitcoinrpc RPC calls. Can someone help mw out here??
160 2018-09-03T18:07:17  <maitra> while switching back to testnet works fine. Valid JSONs are returned.
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197 2018-09-03T19:24:00  <sipa> rafalcpp: if there were force pushes it's possible the code is no longer there
198 2018-09-03T19:25:30  <gmaxwell> achow101: Is it really the case that there is no way in the rpc to take the scriptpubkey and amount from scantxoutset and use that to create/populate a PSBT?
199 2018-09-03T19:26:39  <achow101> probably not. I haven't looked at scantxoutset yet
200 2018-09-03T19:26:51  <gmaxwell> it returns output that looks like listunspent
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202 2018-09-03T19:27:20  <sipa> createpsbt ?
203 2018-09-03T19:27:24  <gmaxwell> but what I mean is that the createpsbt ignores scriptpubkey and amount, even if you provide them.
204 2018-09-03T19:27:41  <sipa> oh, i see
205 2018-09-03T19:27:53  <achow101> right now it only updates from the wallet
206 2018-09-03T19:28:02  <achow101> there's an open pr to update from the node
207 2018-09-03T19:28:10  <achow101> I can add to that updating from user provided data
208 2018-09-03T19:28:26  <gmaxwell> yea, at least just make it so create doesn't ignore them would be nice.
209 2018-09-03T19:28:48  <sipa> gmaxwell: it would lead to hard to analyse problems if it was a non-witness output being spent
210 2018-09-03T19:29:04  <gmaxwell> sipa: how so?
211 2018-09-03T19:29:22  <sipa> gmaxwell: for those it needs the full tx being spent, not just amount and sPK
212 2018-09-03T19:29:32  <gmaxwell> There is no way to bypass that?
213 2018-09-03T19:29:38  <sipa> no
214 2018-09-03T19:29:45  <sipa> signers need that information
215 2018-09-03T19:29:51  <achow101> gmaxwell: no, otherwise you could be tricked into signing something else
216 2018-09-03T19:30:12  <gmaxwell> oh jesus. I am not going to be tricked into signing something else.
217 2018-09-03T19:30:50  <gmaxwell> I understand how the bitcoin protocol works. I'm surprised that there isn't any way to bypass checking the inputs.
218 2018-09-03T19:31:05  <gmaxwell> esp since the existing raw transaction flow provides no way to do that at all.
219 2018-09-03T19:31:16  <sipa> heh, i guess there could be a "yes_i_verified_things_myself" option that skips the check in signing
220 2018-09-03T19:31:17  <gmaxwell> (no way for the offline signer to check the fee)
221 2018-09-03T19:31:36  <sipa> but you still need an updator first that understands the script being spent from
222 2018-09-03T19:31:50  <sipa> so just adding amount/sPK isn't enough
223 2018-09-03T19:31:53  <achow101> gmaxwell: sipa and I concluded that it was always safe to produce a segwit signature. so the problem is really with non-segwit
224 2018-09-03T19:32:12  <achow101> so if all of your inputs were segwit, you could bypass that check
225 2018-09-03T19:33:05  <sipa> my idea was to add an RPC that takes a list of descriptors, and updates using those from the UTXO set
226 2018-09-03T19:33:17  <sipa> which would only work for segwit inputs still
227 2018-09-03T19:33:33  <gmaxwell> Thats a good idea. You should still update non-segwit. Its up to the signer to decide if it has enough information.
228 2018-09-03T19:34:03  <achow101> gmaxwell: we can't because we cant always fetch full transactions
229 2018-09-03T19:34:26  <gmaxwell> ...
230 2018-09-03T19:34:49  <gmaxwell> If you are updating from the UTXO set you can't provide full transactions. Absolutely. So don't.
231 2018-09-03T19:34:51  <sipa> gmaxwell: if you want to sign without checking, you don't need any information at all in the psby
232 2018-09-03T19:35:04  <gmaxwell> you need the scriptpubkeys.
233 2018-09-03T19:35:31  <sipa> righr
234 2018-09-03T19:35:32  <gmaxwell> I was hoping that this would replace an existing raw transaction workflow, but it not only doesn't but it seems not what you and achow are arguing with me.
235 2018-09-03T19:35:51  <sipa> but there is no way to add that information in the psbt without providing a full tx
236 2018-09-03T19:36:04  <sipa> there is a field for input data to a non-segwit input
237 2018-09-03T19:36:10  <sipa> and one for input to a segwit input
238 2018-09-03T19:36:20  <sipa> tbe first is a full tx, the second is amount/sPK
239 2018-09-03T19:36:44  <gmaxwell> Then PSBT as they are today cannot replace raw transactions.
240 2018-09-03T19:37:08  <sipa> you could fill segwit info from utxo data, even for non-segwit inputs
241 2018-09-03T19:37:19  <sipa> but i expect various pieces of software will break
242 2018-09-03T19:37:39  <gmaxwell> hm. it could correctly distinguish segwit from not based on the spk.
243 2018-09-03T19:37:52  <gmaxwell> Thats ugly.
244 2018-09-03T19:38:15  <gmaxwell> Better would be to just add a field type for non-sw utxo information, I think.
245 2018-09-03T19:38:15  <sipa> no
246 2018-09-03T19:38:30  <sipa> with a p2sh embedded segwit you can't tell
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248 2018-09-03T19:38:44  <gmaxwell> oh, indeed.
249 2018-09-03T19:39:36  <sipa> i'm really scared about workflows that rely on unverifiable data
250 2018-09-03T19:39:48  <gmaxwell> In any case, for what I'm doing for the moment, my choices now are: download 200GB of blockchain OR give up on using PSBT and just use a plain raw tx workflow.
251 2018-09-03T19:39:55  <gmaxwell> So obviously I'm going to do the latter.
252 2018-09-03T19:40:18  <sipa> i'm sure there is another way
253 2018-09-03T19:40:47  <gmaxwell> I suppose I could also go to the system that already has the blockchain and do a 6 hour rescan to add the relevant inputs to the wallet.
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255 2018-09-03T19:41:02  <achow101> gmaxwell: I don't quite follow what you are trying to do
256 2018-09-03T19:42:15  <gmaxwell> achow101: sweep a key that is on an offline machine.  There isn't any risk of 'send the coins to fees' because I know apriori how much coins are there.
257 2018-09-03T19:42:28  <sipa> gmaxwell: well, right now, the implementation in bitcoin core isn't sufficient for non-wallet operation
258 2018-09-03T19:42:48  <sipa> just having utxo data isn't enough; you also meed an updator which knows the pubkeys used, the redeemscripts, ...
259 2018-09-03T19:43:03  <sipa> that could be provided by a descriptor, but isn't implemented yet
260 2018-09-03T19:43:41  <gmaxwell> this is easy to do with rawtx + scantxoutset  (or rawtx + a block explorer), I was expect PSBT to simpify it at least slightly.
261 2018-09-03T19:44:06  <sipa> i'm sure it will, once there are a few extra RPCs
262 2018-09-03T19:44:22  <achow101> gmaxwell: it's only easy to do since you verified that the spk and amounts are correct. that's not something we can easily generalize
263 2018-09-03T19:44:23  <gmaxwell> I don't see how based on the above conversation?
264 2018-09-03T19:44:50  <sipa> gmaxwell: for segwit inputs, at least
265 2018-09-03T19:45:04  <sipa> there could also be a signer that lets you bypass safety checks
266 2018-09-03T19:45:29  <sipa> but i'm scared about that
267 2018-09-03T19:46:00  <gmaxwell> you managed to fail to be scared about that for years with that being the only way to use signrawtransaction. :)
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270 2018-09-03T19:50:43  <sipa> gmaxwell: fair
271 2018-09-03T19:51:01  <sipa> though i think psbt aims at being convenient for slightly less sophisticated users
272 2018-09-03T19:52:06  <gmaxwell> well the alternative is implement stuff to take the uxto data and then go fetch pruned blocks from the network to get the inputs.
273 2018-09-03T19:52:23  <gmaxwell> so then at least there is a way to easily get the inputs.
274 2018-09-03T19:52:35  <achow101> ew
275 2018-09-03T19:53:08  <sipa> i don't think there is any harm in letting createpsbt take the amount/sPK and pass them through and create a segwit tx input field with those
276 2018-09-03T19:53:33  <sipa> which would be enough for an unsafe signer with knowledge of scripts/pubkeys to sign
277 2018-09-03T19:54:03  <gmaxwell> but as I'm saying, because of limitations in PSBT, even with being willing to modify the software to remove a check there is no way for this to replace raw tx in my existing workflow.  I wouldn't _mind_ it putting the inputs in there, but there is no efficent way to get them on a pruned node.
278 2018-09-03T19:55:08  <sipa> gmaxwell: if the checks are dropped, it would work fine, no?
279 2018-09-03T19:55:23  <sipa> you wouldn't expect it to work in other software, though
280 2018-09-03T19:56:06  <gmaxwell> Yes, if you could pass along the data and bypass the checks it would work fine.  Though a way of fetching the information on a pruned node would be more general (e.g. would work with hardware wallets that don't have a bypass)
281 2018-09-03T19:57:03  <andytoshi> i think PSBT should have an extension to support gmaxwell's workflow .. even if the new field names have "unsafe" in them or something
282 2018-09-03T19:57:34  <andytoshi> or maybe this is purely about core RPC, and not PSBT itself
283 2018-09-03T19:57:49  <gmaxwell> sadly it sounds like PSBT needs an extension if its to accomidate this.
284 2018-09-03T19:58:09  <gmaxwell> ('this' being unchecked signing)
285 2018-09-03T19:58:15  <andytoshi> right .. it would be good if there was an "amount_unsafe" field or something that you could fill in, and if signers had good reason to trust it, they could use it
286 2018-09-03T19:58:29  <sipa> there is no need for amount data
287 2018-09-03T19:58:34  <sipa> only scriptPubKey
288 2018-09-03T19:58:44  <jonasschnelli> kanzure: is there an issue with the bitcoin-dev mailing? I sent an email 7h, but got nothing back from the list
289 2018-09-03T19:58:46  <gmaxwell> they can use the amount_unsafe data to display/check fees.
290 2018-09-03T19:58:54  <sipa> gmaxwell: that seems unwise
291 2018-09-03T19:59:05  <sipa> the only reason the data is there is so it can be verified
292 2018-09-03T19:59:34  <sipa> if you bypass that, and are willing to vouch you yourself did sufficient checking, that doesn't seem needed
293 2018-09-03T19:59:50  <andytoshi> sipa: it does if you want a hardware wallet that does fee-checking, and its only means of communication is by PSBT
294 2018-09-03T20:00:04  <andytoshi> otherwise you need an extra transport to pass it pre-verified daa
295 2018-09-03T20:00:06  <andytoshi> data
296 2018-09-03T20:00:06  <sipa> andytoshi: it can't fee check if the amount isn't verified
297 2018-09-03T20:00:29  <gmaxwell> sipa: the 'checking' of that part was done at an earlier stage.
298 2018-09-03T20:00:31  <andytoshi> it sounds like gmax verified it when he made the transactions, and then didn't keep the transactions around..
299 2018-09-03T20:00:36  <sipa> i'm confused
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301 2018-09-03T20:01:17  <sipa> if you verified the fee data outside the hsm already, why do you need to tell it the amount?
302 2018-09-03T20:01:29  <gmaxwell> sipa: only UI convience wise.
303 2018-09-03T20:01:48  <sipa> gmaxwell: again, that seems unwise if it's unverified
304 2018-09-03T20:02:09  <sipa> i think the hw signer should just say "unverifiable data, agree to sign anyway?"
305 2018-09-03T20:02:45  <andytoshi> and the user can use a pocket calculator for the fee?
306 2018-09-03T20:02:58  <gmaxwell> In any case, I don't have a specific need for an unverifyed sign. I just need EITHER an unverfied sign, or a easy way to provide using a pruned node input tx for arbritary scriptpubkey that exist in the utxo set.
307 2018-09-03T20:03:19  <sipa> andytoshi: the user must have checked the fee already outside, before passing it to the signer anyway
308 2018-09-03T20:03:40  <sipa> andytoshi: so no, not a pocket calculator; just trusting himself which he's already doing in an unverified setting
309 2018-09-03T20:03:52  <gmaxwell> e.g. the 'security upgrade' of getting the inputs is fine, so long as it doesn't cost an N hour download the whole blockchain/recan.
310 2018-09-03T20:04:17  <sipa> gmaxwell: how do you imagine that to work?
311 2018-09-03T20:04:46  <gmaxwell> sipa: the utxo has heights. get the inputs from the blocks, if we have them, otherwise go fetch the blocks.
312 2018-09-03T20:05:14  <andytoshi> sipa: i don't feel strongly about this, but it's annoying that the user is being forced to compute the fee herself and verify this when she has a hw signer that is perfectly capable of addition
313 2018-09-03T20:05:18  <sipa> ah, i see
314 2018-09-03T20:06:01  <gmaxwell> Aside, AFAICT walletprocesspsbt  doesn't even show the fees. nor does decodepsbt... so using bitcoin core rpc as your HSM doesn't even provide any security improvement from having the inputs present? or am I missing it?
315 2018-09-03T20:06:15  <achow101> gmaxwell: decodepsbt does if all inputs are there
316 2018-09-03T20:06:49  <sipa> andytoshi: in this setting the user must have done far more complex things already
317 2018-09-03T20:07:03  <gmaxwell> achow101: oh okay, still nothing forces you to call decode on it.
318 2018-09-03T20:07:31  <achow101> walletcreatefundedpsbt also gives you the fee.
319 2018-09-03T20:08:04  <gmaxwell> achow101: yes, and? that is something that I'm running on the online host...
320 2018-09-03T20:08:31  <andytoshi> sipa: ok, fair enough
321 2018-09-03T20:09:37  <sipa> in any case, the only way to exploit the file format right now to do this is to create a segwit inout field (even for non-segwit inputs), which also stores the amount
322 2018-09-03T20:10:14  <sipa> i just think it's a bad idea to show a user information which is not verifiable - it's fine if they're willing to do verification elsewhere and let them override security checks
323 2018-09-03T20:10:45  <gmaxwell> well one could also set the amount to the max value.
324 2018-09-03T20:11:17  <gmaxwell> AFAIK there would never need to be a reason to override if we could reliably provide the inputs without absurd burdens, but right now we can't do that.
325 2018-09-03T20:11:42  <sipa> but that also means you don't need to shwow it again:; they analysed it and trust it already
326 2018-09-03T20:24:03  <gmaxwell> why did signrawtransactionwithkey permute the arguments.
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328 2018-09-03T20:27:49  <achow101> permute?
329 2018-09-03T20:28:26  <gmaxwell> signrawtransaction took  <tx> <inputs> <privkeys>   withkey takes <tx> <privkeys> <inputs>
330 2018-09-03T20:28:53  <achow101> withkey requires keys, but not inputs
331 2018-09-03T20:28:59  <achow101> inputs are optional for with key, but were optional in signraw
332 2018-09-03T20:29:15  <achow101> keys were optional in signraw
333 2018-09-03T20:29:43  <gmaxwell> just resulted in a couple minutes of confusion dealing with uninformative "JSON value is not a string as expected" after changing a script due to deprication.
334 2018-09-03T20:29:48  <gmaxwell> Okay, makes sense I guess.
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366 2018-09-03T23:31:34  <kanzure> sipa: apologies. mailing list is in moderation mode since someone figured out how to spoof emails from bitcoin developers. emails were delayed due to my travel.
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