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  4 2018-09-25T00:13:07  <echeveria> phantomcircuit: tig.
  5 2018-09-25T00:18:15  <gmaxwell> luke-jr: I think the messages you are sending out complaining about upgrades are making people more ignorant, I'm seeing a lot of posts like https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/9impf7/cant_we_just_uasf_away_from_any_nodes_that_arent/e6kt857/
  6 2018-09-25T00:18:48  <gmaxwell> I don't think there is anything wrong with the upgrade progress.
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 29 2018-09-25T01:11:38  <luke-jr> gmaxwell: I don't see how that's at all related
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 31 2018-09-25T01:16:28  <echeveria> for a start you know that your "4-5%" number is flimsy.
 32 2018-09-25T01:16:30  <luke-jr> the upgrade process is fine, when there isn't a publicly-known exploit we're vulnerable to..
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 35 2018-09-25T01:19:59  <gmaxwell> "we're" is an example of you creating confusion there.
 36 2018-09-25T01:20:16  <gmaxwell> it's suggesting that people are being harmed by others having not upgraded yet.
 37 2018-09-25T01:20:21  <luke-jr> echeveria: I just posted that after talking here, and it is a heck of a lot LESS flimsy than any 40-50% figures
 38 2018-09-25T01:20:42  <echeveria> luke-jr: I've always been very explicit in my comments about that number being for listening sockets.
 39 2018-09-25T01:21:13  <gmaxwell> For all you know virtually everyone accepting transactions or mining is already upgraded.
 40 2018-09-25T01:21:36  <gmaxwell> And if so, it doesn't matter when the rest upgrade if ever.
 41 2018-09-25T01:21:52  <luke-jr> echeveria: specifying that doesn't make it any less meaningless with an implication that it matters
 42 2018-09-25T01:22:52  <luke-jr> gmaxwell: uh, the attacker of this vulnerability is miner(s); that they have upgraded for now is useful, but not security
 43 2018-09-25T01:23:21  <luke-jr> and too many non-full nodes DOES potentially harm full nodes
 44 2018-09-25T01:24:45  <echeveria> you care about at least one of your peers being safe. at this point with all probability, a listening socket you are connected to is safe. the number does have significance if you are making the assumption (and you are) that most nodes are non-listening.
 45 2018-09-25T01:25:03  <luke-jr> that ignores the economic side of things
 46 2018-09-25T01:25:31  <luke-jr> if 90% of the economy is working with an invalid chain, it's the full nodes that will be left in the cold with worthless tokens
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 48 2018-09-25T01:27:01  <echeveria> yes, but you can't measure this.
 49 2018-09-25T01:27:26  <echeveria> you're no doubt aware as much as me, most economic activity happens on non-validating systems.
 50 2018-09-25T01:27:51  <sipa> when you upgrade consciously, you make a determination that the new rules are the ones you consider valid; you don't care about what others think is valid
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 52 2018-09-25T01:28:09  <echeveria> luke-jr: if you want to get Coinbase to upgrade, go talk to Blockchain.info or Blockcypher, badgering people to upgrade their systems is admirable, and optimal, but doesn't solve your problems.
 53 2018-09-25T01:28:10  <luke-jr> echeveria: that's speculation, and extremely dangerous if true
 54 2018-09-25T01:28:11  <sipa> or at least, the point where what others think is valid is relevant, but only before you decide to upgrade
 55 2018-09-25T01:29:02  <luke-jr> echeveria: it would basically mean Bitcoin is just another centralised PayPal already
 56 2018-09-25T01:29:15  <sipa> i disagree
 57 2018-09-25T01:29:16  <luke-jr> sipa: you care what others think is valid, if you want to pay them
 58 2018-09-25T01:29:22  <sipa> luke-jr: of course
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 60 2018-09-25T01:29:28  <echeveria> luke-jr: now that's a bold claim. lets take this one to a PM or #bitcoin.
 61 2018-09-25T01:29:35  <sipa> luke-jr: but that feeds into the definition of what full node software to run
 62 2018-09-25T01:31:54  <phantomcircuit> echeveria, yes that
 63 2018-09-25T01:31:54  <phantomcircuit> ty
 64 2018-09-25T01:31:56  <luke-jr> sipa: if you decide to softfork the CVE-2018-17144 fix by upgrading, you want everyone you pay to upgrade too
 65 2018-09-25T01:31:56  <luke-jr> so that you can be sure they will accept your payments
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 67 2018-09-25T01:31:57  <sipa> once you have made that determination, your definition of valid is fixed, and you don't care who upgrades or not
 68 2018-09-25T01:31:57  <sipa> for all you know every economically relevant node has upgraded
 69 2018-09-25T01:31:57  <sipa> this is indeed probably better suited for #bitcoin
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 71 2018-09-25T01:32:34  <luke-jr> sipa: that's possible only if the number of economically relevant nodes is dangerously low
 72 2018-09-25T01:33:01  <sipa> luke-jr: fair; you have an incentive to encourage economically relevant nodes to upgrade- but you can't observe which nodes are upgraded
 73 2018-09-25T01:33:06  <sipa> eh, which are relevant
 74 2018-09-25T01:33:37  <sipa> my assumption is that 90%+ of listening nodes on the network are not economically relevant at all
 75 2018-09-25T01:33:41  <luke-jr> I hope it's much more than 4000
 76 2018-09-25T01:33:56  <luke-jr> sipa: I'm looking at non-listening ones too
 77 2018-09-25T01:34:41  <echeveria> phantomcircuit: the options aren't obvious, `tig log` is sometimes easier for browsing the source tree, `tig grep` is far better than just using grep in my experience because you get context.
 78 2018-09-25T01:34:57  <luke-jr> tig?
 79 2018-09-25T01:38:01  *** promag has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 80 2018-09-25T01:39:08  <echeveria> a git ncurses interface.
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 87 2018-09-25T01:58:59  <jcorgan> +1 for tig, i use it frequently
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101 2018-09-25T02:52:54  <ken2812221> cfields: jonasschnelli: code signatures reminder for 0.15.2 and 0.14.3. Hope that the binaries can be released ASAP.
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153 2018-09-25T07:07:20  <provoostenator> echeveria: fwif blockchain.info is upgraded
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155 2018-09-25T07:20:54  <jonasschnelli> ken2812221: Yes. We'll take care about it today.
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164 2018-09-25T08:17:01  <booyah> how to measure disk use for UTXO and for blockchain?  tesetnet3 uses 24 GB with prune=3000, is really tesetnet UTXO that big, or some bug
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166 2018-09-25T08:35:31  <echeveria> provoostenator: since when do they even run a validating node?
167 2018-09-25T08:35:57  <echeveria> provoostenator: they were always just bitcoinj with validation disabled, which is why they kept showing wildly invalid transactions like the "one spending satoshi's coins".
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172 2018-09-25T09:20:53  <ken2812221> jonasschnelli: Thanks
173 2018-09-25T09:26:43  <jonasschnelli> booyah: 25GB is without pruning....
174 2018-09-25T09:26:58  <jonasschnelli> the UTXO set is ~1GB
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201 2018-09-25T12:24:55  <ilyachesnokov> join #bitcoin
202 2018-09-25T12:26:28  <ilyachesnokov> join #bitcoin
203 2018-09-25T12:28:14  <queip> ilyachesnokov: it's /join #bitcoin , bro
204 2018-09-25T12:28:29  <ilyachesnokov> huh
205 2018-09-25T12:29:07  <ilyachesnokov> has anybody used indexd software from bitcoinjs repo?
206 2018-09-25T12:29:28  <ilyachesnokov> it is external index for bitcoin core
207 2018-09-25T12:31:07  <queip> ilyachesnokov: that is a good question but for #bitcoin channel, not here, which you can join by /join #bitcoin  including the leading slash character, and writting in the new window that opens
208 2018-09-25T12:31:58  <ilyachesnokov> fine will ask there
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220 2018-09-25T13:46:37  <sdaftuar> have there been reports of spurious test failures on the appveyor runs?  eg https://ci.appveyor.com/project/DrahtBot/bitcoin/build/master.1638
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239 2018-09-25T15:41:51  <cfields> er, I didn't think we were signing those binaries. I don't believe the Windows ones can be, at least.
240 2018-09-25T15:44:53  <achow101> cfields, why?
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243 2018-09-25T15:45:43  <cfields> achow101: the certificate expired
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245 2018-09-25T15:47:04  <cfields> achow101: we got a new cert for 0.16 iirc, and the build-scripts include the cert so that the wrong one can't be used on accident
246 2018-09-25T15:47:51  <achow101> can't you use the new one?
247 2018-09-25T15:49:18  <cfields> wumpus: thoughts on ^^? I could hack the scripts and do it manually, I *think* the gitian process would still work in that case. But I'm not sure signatures for unsupported releases is a good idea in principle.
248 2018-09-25T15:49:55  <cfields> er, I suppose 0.15 is still supported until 0.17 is out the door
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250 2018-09-25T15:51:32  <achow101> 0.14 is still technically not EOL
251 2018-09-25T15:52:07  <achow101> so it's still supported for critical security fixes
252 2018-09-25T15:54:41  <cfields> ugh, ok. I'll see what's possible.
253 2018-09-25T15:55:22  <achow101> cfields: you can do 0.15.2 at least, it looks like the current cert is in that repo
254 2018-09-25T15:55:33  <achow101> s/repo/branch
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256 2018-09-25T15:58:44  <cfields> hmm, the history there isn't lining up the way I remembered. Maybe 0.15 used the new cert as well?
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259 2018-09-25T16:01:36  <achow101> cfields: #9514
260 2018-09-25T16:01:38  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/9514 | release: Windows signing script by theuni · Pull Request #9514 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
261 2018-09-25T16:02:42  <achow101> hasn't changed since then
262 2018-09-25T16:02:47  * cfields facepalms
263 2018-09-25T16:02:55  <cfields> achow101: you're right, it's macOS that expired
264 2018-09-25T16:03:40  <cfields> so win signing should be fine. Let's see what trouble that gives us instead.
265 2018-09-25T16:08:54  <achow101> cfields: I think macOS signing should be fine. the cert isn't even in the repo and I believe the scripts are outdated
266 2018-09-25T16:09:07  <achow101> *outdated or haven't changed in a while
267 2018-09-25T16:10:02  <cfields> achow101: yes, looks like you're right.
268 2018-09-25T16:10:13  <cfields> ok, building quickly.
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306 2018-09-25T19:20:18  <jonasschnelli> Building some PRs in Gitian and getting "No space left on device" errors while building linux (but there is space left on the host).
307 2018-09-25T19:20:19  <jonasschnelli> https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/build/801
308 2018-09-25T19:20:22  <jonasschnelli> Could this be a container size constraints issue?
309 2018-09-25T19:24:03  <achow101> jonasschnelli: what virtualization are you using? that seems like the container image isn't big enough
310 2018-09-25T19:24:13  <jonasschnelli> achow101: LXC
311 2018-09-25T19:24:27  <jonasschnelli> Now clue how to set the container size
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315 2018-09-25T19:28:03  <achow101> jonasschnelli: I think you will need to modify make-base-vm in gitian-builder/bin
316 2018-09-25T19:29:13  <achow101> it invokes dd near the end of the lxc setup stuff. I think if you make that larger the container will be larger
317 2018-09-25T19:29:40  <jonasschnelli> dd if=/dev/zero of=$OUT-lxc bs=1M count=1 seek=10240
318 2018-09-25T19:30:13  <achow101> yeah, that line
319 2018-09-25T19:31:03  <jonasschnelli> trying...
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323 2018-09-25T20:12:39  <cfields> jonasschnelli: sorry, builds are taking a while here too
324 2018-09-25T20:14:11  <jonasschnelli> cfields: no worries...
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329 2018-09-25T20:31:09  <luke-jr> jonasschnelli: I have a PR for gitian-builder that lets you set disk sizes, but it doesn't support LXC
330 2018-09-25T20:31:50  <jonasschnelli> luke-jr: hmm... is there a reason why it doesn't support LXC? Is it not possible or just not done?
331 2018-09-25T20:32:17  <luke-jr> I don't use LXC, so I didn't even try to implement it
332 2018-09-25T20:32:47  <luke-jr> I would think it's possible, but probably fundamentally different in how to implement
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356 2018-09-25T21:38:31  <provoostenator> Rolling back after upgrading a pre-segwit node also blows up memory: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14289#issuecomment-424510417
357 2018-09-25T21:39:11  <sipa> provoostenator: and do you know whether the same was true in 0.16?
358 2018-09-25T21:40:10  <provoostenator> I kept a copy of the 0.13 database pre downgrade, so will try with 0.16 tomorrow when I'm recovered from the Ams dev meetup :-)
359 2018-09-25T21:40:39  <provoostenator> I can test fixes as well.
360 2018-09-25T21:42:24  <gmaxwell> it probably don't matter that much if it's also true on 0.16. We need to fix it or disable the rollback and shut down with a message that you need to sync from scratch.
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362 2018-09-25T21:45:08  <provoostenator> Given how slow rollback is, I think that even in the first scenario the release notes could suggest syncing from scratch unless the user is really network constrained.
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364 2018-09-25T21:46:06  <provoostenator> (though perhaps it's faster with the memory fix)
365 2018-09-25T21:46:12  <gmaxwell> rollback is as slow as it is in part because of the same thing that is causing the memory blowup.
366 2018-09-25T21:46:56  <gmaxwell> I wouldn't be shocked if a sync from scratch weren't faster regardless... but IIRC without the memory blowup rollback and forward are pretty close in speed.
367 2018-09-25T21:50:11  <sipa> depends how deep it is :)
368 2018-09-25T21:50:23  <sipa> if your node has been offline since 1 week after segwit activated...
369 2018-09-25T21:51:48  <gmaxwell> perhaps we should fix the bloat, and measure the speed ... I'd say we should remove the rollback logic if it's really a loss ignoring assumptions like that, but the rollback logic will be useful for future softforks.
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372 2018-09-25T22:03:37  <esotericnonsense> I was thinking about this just now actually. i'm syncing a node on ZFS at the moment
373 2018-09-25T22:04:41  <esotericnonsense> was thinking about testing rollback by just restoring old snapshots (yes it's going to balloon my disk space)
374 2018-09-25T22:05:49  <gmaxwell> for this case, you need to sync up to current with pre-segwit code.. then switch to post segwit code.
375 2018-09-25T22:08:08  <esotericnonsense> re syncing from scratch; this is uninformed, but just a guess; could you reindex instead? when the segwit node hits the first block that has missing segwit data it can sync from there, right
376 2018-09-25T22:08:37  <esotericnonsense> (not relevant in the long term, but right now you'd skip redownloading what, 100GB or so?)
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379 2018-09-25T22:16:30  <gmaxwell> yes, I'm not sure that it'll delete the useless data though.
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381 2018-09-25T22:38:32  <cfields> gitian builders: Detached sigs for v0.14.3 and v0.15.2 are pushed. My apologies for the delay.
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