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   3 2018-10-18T00:09:01  <promag> meshcollider: how are you testing #14478?
   4 2018-10-18T00:09:03  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14478 | Show error to user when corrupt wallet unlock fails by MeshCollider · Pull Request #14478 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
   5 2018-10-18T00:09:14  <meshcollider> promag: I haven't tested it yet
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   7 2018-10-18T00:09:21  <meshcollider> I will have to make a corrupt wallet somehow
   8 2018-10-18T00:09:32  <meshcollider> latest commit is WIP tho
   9 2018-10-18T00:11:09  <promag> you can fake CCryptoKeyStore::Unlock
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  11 2018-10-18T00:11:58  <promag> anyway for these changes a test guide would be nice
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  14 2018-10-18T00:19:13  <promag> I'm dying with vcpkg install qt5..
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  28 2018-10-18T01:09:45  <fanquake> cfields carldong fwiw I started collecting together the determinism cases we discussed at Core Dev, just for easy reference. Let me know if you want anything added, still some to add.
  29 2018-10-18T01:09:50  <fanquake> Notes are here: https://github.com/fanquake/core-review/blob/master/determinism.md
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  49 2018-10-18T02:12:08  <meshcollider> dongcarl *
  50 2018-10-18T02:13:26  <dongcarl> fanquake: thank you, will take a look
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  76 2018-10-18T04:33:46  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] kallewoof opened pull request #14507: net: avoid being disconnected from pruned nodes when syncing up (master...net-pruned-limit-requests) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14507
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  78 2018-10-18T04:39:36  <achow101> meshcollider: easy way to corrupt a wallet is to db_dump, change some bytes randomly, and then db_load to make the .dat file again
  79 2018-10-18T04:40:01  <achow101> I can make one for you
  80 2018-10-18T04:40:44  <meshcollider> achow101: ah yep, although promag is right, I could just force the code to throw the error anyway
  81 2018-10-18T04:41:01  <meshcollider> ill come back to that after the segwit importmulti stuff is done
  82 2018-10-18T04:41:57  <achow101> there's a bunch of failures involving corrupted wallets that we don't test. we could add a corrupted wallet to the test suite and then test those things
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  97 2018-10-18T06:45:23  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #14370: utils and libraries: Allow values quoting in config files (master...20181002-config-quotes) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14370
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  99 2018-10-18T06:50:57  <promag> achow101: instead of adding a corrupted wallet, could add code to corrupt the wallet
 100 2018-10-18T06:52:25  <promag> wumpus: I'd love to see 14291 reviewed
 101 2018-10-18T06:55:15  <promag> wumpus: I think that optimisations could be added next if worth it, like caching results, pagination or ryanofsky suggestion
 102 2018-10-18T06:56:35  <wumpus> 'code to corrupt the wallet' ehhh what about no :$
 103 2018-10-18T06:57:49  <wumpus> that's, like, wiring a footgun to your program, or do you mean in the test framework?
 104 2018-10-18T06:57:59  <wumpus> promag: ok
 105 2018-10-18T06:58:45  <wumpus> promag: I don't really care about it being optimized, just it being correct and not interfering with other use of the file system
 106 2018-10-18T06:58:52  <wumpus> promag: will re-review
 107 2018-10-18T06:59:16  <promag> wumpus: thanks!
 108 2018-10-18T06:59:57  <wumpus> so does it avoid nuking the lock now?
 109 2018-10-18T07:01:03  <promag> yes https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14291/files#diff-e802a36c28b0140bab62cb5366199656R38
 110 2018-10-18T07:01:47  <wumpus> ohh that's neat
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 112 2018-10-18T07:02:26  <wumpus> (it's somewhat hard to review changes if you don't add commits but squash them)
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 114 2018-10-18T07:04:45  <wumpus> the endianness thing is really a gothcha
 115 2018-10-18T07:05:22  <promag> the last change was https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/743a3a9b20768519a11f54834d27fd7585a0670a <- I have to remove that #include though..
 116 2018-10-18T07:05:43  <wumpus> thank you
 117 2018-10-18T07:05:49  <promag> regarding endianness, I don't know what to do there
 118 2018-10-18T07:06:03  <wumpus> add a comment as suggested
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 120 2018-10-18T07:06:35  <wumpus> most people reading the code will be unaware of this fact, which is the best reason to add a useful comment
 121 2018-10-18T07:07:01  <promag> wumpus: ok, going to take kids to school, I'll update when I get back
 122 2018-10-18T07:07:06  <wumpus> thanks
 123 2018-10-18T07:07:36  <wumpus> this is... telling, I don't suppose anyone ever used bitcoin on a big endian system
 124 2018-10-18T07:07:40  <wumpus> at least not with wallet
 125 2018-10-18T07:07:58  <wumpus> (and tried to copy the files from another system)
 126 2018-10-18T07:08:18  <wumpus> please be really sure that this is really the case
 127 2018-10-18T07:09:28  <wumpus> or does BDB *produce* native endian but *accept* either?
 128 2018-10-18T07:09:42  <wumpus> in that case the code needs to check for both endiannesses
 129 2018-10-18T07:09:46  <sipa> wumpus: that's my theory
 130 2018-10-18T07:09:59  <sipa> it writes in native, but converts when the file is the other endianness
 131 2018-10-18T07:10:17  <wumpus> right, that'd make some sense
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 133 2018-10-18T07:11:54  <wumpus> have certainly seen that before in file formats
 134 2018-10-18T07:13:33  <promag> wumpus: nothing would go wrong anyway, it would give no wallets
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 136 2018-10-18T07:14:25  <wumpus> promag: I just want to be careful here and be sure of what we're doing
 137 2018-10-18T07:14:35  <promag> wumpus: I can't virtualize different endianness right?
 138 2018-10-18T07:15:27  <wumpus> sure you can, in qemu, though I'd expect the number of linux distros that even run in a big endian host is low these days
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 140 2018-10-18T07:19:36  <promag> ty, bbl
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 145 2018-10-18T07:24:49  <wumpus> promag: anyhow, no matter what the assumption is going to be, make sure it's documented in a comment
 146 2018-10-18T07:25:18  <wumpus> it's IMO perfectly acceptable if you don't want to actually check this on a BE host
 147 2018-10-18T07:25:34  <sipa> ... what actual BE systems exist these days?
 148 2018-10-18T07:25:45  <wumpus> but if you make assumptions like that, anywhere, add a comment
 149 2018-10-18T07:26:01  <sipa> i think our primary interest in being BE compatible is that it forces a degree of endian-neutrality on the code
 150 2018-10-18T07:26:08  <sipa> not so much supporting actual systems
 151 2018-10-18T07:26:21  <wumpus> yes, agree
 152 2018-10-18T07:28:26  <sipa> Some current big-endian architectures include the IBM z/Architecture, Freescale ColdFire (which is Motorola 68000 series-based), Xilinx MicroBlaze, Atmel AVR32.
 153 2018-10-18T07:28:30  <sipa> -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endianness#Current_architectures
 154 2018-10-18T07:28:40  <wumpus> being endian independent with regard to data files is good practice, no matter if there are any
 155 2018-10-18T07:29:23  <gmaxwell> wumpus: it works fine on BE, I just never tried moving iles over.
 156 2018-10-18T07:29:35  <gmaxwell> sipa: PPC is biendian now.
 157 2018-10-18T07:29:44  <wumpus> yes IBM power can run in BE as well (https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14066 has some discussion in that regard whether we should ship executables for that case)
 158 2018-10-18T07:30:22  <gmaxwell> and yes, the main advantage of supporting BE is that testing there will reveal other issues in the code, including issues that are real but harder to observe on other systems.
 159 2018-10-18T07:30:35  <wumpus> gmaxwell: I'd be surprised if this was not possible and we would have never noticed; I vaguely remember trying at the time, but not sure
 160 2018-10-18T07:30:48  <gmaxwell> Though BE power is both real and an actually interesting host to run bitcoin on.
 161 2018-10-18T07:31:17  <gmaxwell> wumpus: I kinda thought I tried that too... or at least I know I moved a whole .bitcoin over, but I might have not tried with the wallet.
 162 2018-10-18T07:31:17  <wumpus> what I did was copy over a data directory but I'm not sure if it had a wallet, might have been only block files etc
 163 2018-10-18T07:31:21  <wumpus> right.
 164 2018-10-18T07:32:13  <sipa> would be interesting to test with #14479 to see if the fee estimates files are compatible
 165 2018-10-18T07:32:15  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14479 | serialization: Dont invoke undefined behaviour when doing type punning by practicalswift · Pull Request #14479 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 166 2018-10-18T07:32:26  <gmaxwell> sipa: they won't be thats obvious.
 167 2018-10-18T07:32:40  <gmaxwell> ( and I pointed that out on the PR )
 168 2018-10-18T07:33:03  <sipa> gmaxwell: from what i've read since, is that most BE systems actually store IEEE floats in byteswapped form
 169 2018-10-18T07:33:15  <sipa> as IEEE 754 only specifies the bit encoding
 170 2018-10-18T07:33:23  <sipa> not how to store the bytes
 171 2018-10-18T07:34:42  <sipa> but at least historically there are various ways, and not much consistency; including one platform that stores 64 bits in 2 LE 32-bit integers, but the most significant first
 172 2018-10-18T07:36:06  <wumpus> yes, from what I know too, most systems use the same endian for floats and integers, as this makes the implementation simpler, and also allows doing some tricks like fast radix sort of floats efficiently
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 174 2018-10-18T07:36:27  <wumpus> of course making that assumption without checking it is a bad idea
 175 2018-10-18T07:37:11  <sipa> but for example Boost.Endian intentionally does not support encoding floats because there is no guaranteed consistency
 176 2018-10-18T07:37:33  <sipa> An attempt was made to support four-byte floats and eight-byte doubles, limited to IEEE 754 (also know as ISO/IEC/IEEE 60559) floating point and further limited to systems where floating point endianness does not differ from integer endianness.
 177 2018-10-18T07:37:58  <wumpus> I think it would be perfectly OK to just add a check to the build system
 178 2018-10-18T07:38:20  <wumpus> and fail if the architecture doesn't match the current assumption
 179 2018-10-18T07:38:20  <gmaxwell> sipa: power64be has BE floats (and in fact the BE/LE autoswitch is implemented by footwork in the address decoder, values still get stored in memory as BE, but it's hidden (according to the ISA manual))
 180 2018-10-18T07:38:45  <gmaxwell> We should probably just avoid serializing floats at all.
 181 2018-10-18T07:38:50  <sipa> yes, absolutely
 182 2018-10-18T07:39:01  <wumpus> we don't have to handle everything, certainly not every possible historical architecture, but do need to be explicit about it
 183 2018-10-18T07:39:03  <gmaxwell> There is no particular need to, this decay thing in fact just uses the float to store one of three values.
 184 2018-10-18T07:39:22  <sipa> afaik indeed; i haven't checked in detail
 185 2018-10-18T07:39:28  <gmaxwell> (in general floats, like strings, are a source of fun bugs in many cases.)
 186 2018-10-18T07:39:41  <sipa> so we could just hardcode the 8-byte serializations, and encode those
 187 2018-10-18T07:39:44  <gmaxwell> (e.g. when A != A due to !@#! nan and your code infinite loops)
 188 2018-10-18T07:39:47  <sipa> and switch when decode
 189 2018-10-18T07:39:49  <wumpus> yes, like using signalling NaNs in binary protocols to crash MMO servers :-)
 190 2018-10-18T07:40:00  <gmaxwell> or that
 191 2018-10-18T07:40:25  <gmaxwell> or float code that dorks with the rounding rule registers and then breaks OTHER float code.
 192 2018-10-18T07:40:49  <wumpus> yes, indeed
 193 2018-10-18T07:41:16  <gmaxwell> I don't whine about it in our codebase because we've mostly limited it to feerates (and sometimes time things) where it is less critical.
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 195 2018-10-18T07:41:34  <gmaxwell> but in general our usage of float should be pretty sparing.
 196 2018-10-18T07:41:37  <wumpus> I'm still scared about using floats for monetary values at all, but yes
 197 2018-10-18T07:43:34  <wumpus> in fee estimation I'd grant that the whole thing is so *heuristic* that the usual things that make floats unsuitable don't count, it needs to be robust against many things, a very small precision issue won't break it
 198 2018-10-18T07:45:09  <gmaxwell> (or someone compiles with -Ofast and then all your careful float code behaves different because of the compiler treating them like reals)
 199 2018-10-18T07:45:18  <wumpus> with regard to the file format, we could certainly have prevented encoding the values directly as float
 200 2018-10-18T07:45:49  <sipa> it seems that before fee_estimates.dat, we never used the float serialization code at all
 201 2018-10-18T07:45:56  <gmaxwell> wumpus: If we didn't use floats for some of that stuff, we'd still run into issues with precision problems in whatever fixed point math we'd have-- at least that isn't why I didn't go through and rip them out myself. :P
 202 2018-10-18T07:45:57  <wumpus> they're limited range so quantizing it to 64 bits would likely have been ok
 203 2018-10-18T07:47:02  <gmaxwell> Though I do worry about eventually ending up with an infinite loop or undefined behavior (like indexing an array with a float) due to NaNs.
 204 2018-10-18T07:47:21  <wumpus> aanyhow, I think not worth breaking backwards compatibily for this
 205 2018-10-18T07:47:40  <wumpus> gmaxwell: it's true, but at least it'd be deterministic / arch independent so easier to be confident about... but yeah
 206 2018-10-18T07:47:55  <gmaxwell> no, though we could fix it without being incompatible. E.g. change to coding values with the LE bytes as meaning the same old thing.
 207 2018-10-18T07:48:04  <gmaxwell> I don't mind breaking compat on BE.
 208 2018-10-18T07:48:27  <gmaxwell> presumably fee estimates format is gonna change in not enormous amounts of time anyways.
 209 2018-10-18T07:48:48  <gmaxwell> though we should probably eliminate any generic float serialization before some other goof is added. :)
 210 2018-10-18T07:48:53  <wumpus> I think that's good, it's something to write down for the next time the format has to change anyway
 211 2018-10-18T07:49:07  <sipa> gmaxwell: but currently the code is compatible for systems that store both floats and ints in the same endianness
 212 2018-10-18T07:49:36  <sipa> so we can just replace it with byte matches, and it shouldn't break anything
 213 2018-10-18T07:50:30  <wumpus> gmaxwell: yes, ripping out the float serialization code would be neat, I toyed with the idea of moving it to a separate header with a big "don't use this for new code" warning
 214 2018-10-18T07:50:45  <sipa> it doesn't sound like much work at all
 215 2018-10-18T07:51:16  <wumpus> at the time it was more work than I expected
 216 2018-10-18T07:51:39  <sipa> when was fee_estimates.dat introduced?
 217 2018-10-18T07:51:41  <sipa> 0.12 ish?
 218 2018-10-18T07:52:10  <wumpus> some of the things handling float datat types, weren't that easy to isolate out, at least not if including was to be optional
 219 2018-10-18T07:52:23  <wumpus> but I don't remember specifics, I'm not the best versed in C++ template magic
 220 2018-10-18T07:52:23  <sipa> ah, yes
 221 2018-10-18T07:52:32  <sipa> you'd need forward declares and stuff
 222 2018-10-18T07:52:56  <wumpus> right
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 225 2018-10-18T07:55:27  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/816fab9ccae5...041224a75c16
 226 2018-10-18T07:55:27  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master d562027 Sjors Provoost: [doc] getblocktemplate: use SegWit in example
 227 2018-10-18T07:55:28  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 041224a Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #14472: [doc] getblocktemplate: use SegWit in example...
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 230 2018-10-18T07:56:35  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #14472: [doc] getblocktemplate: use SegWit in example (master...2018/10/doc-getblocktemplate-segwit) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14472
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 233 2018-10-18T07:56:50  <wumpus> sipa: acc. to release notes, fee_estimates.dat was introduced in 0.10
 234 2018-10-18T07:57:28  <sipa> ah
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 237 2018-10-18T08:07:44  <karelb> thinking out loud- yesterday we talked with colleague how we hate that JSON RPC returns BTC values as floats. (at various points.) Do you think it would be a good idea to be able to somehow switch this with some option? either option for whole bitcoind, or just another parameter for bitcoin-cli
 238 2018-10-18T08:08:05  <wumpus> I tried that once...
 239 2018-10-18T08:08:11  <karelb> there are workarounds around that, but it's still annoying
 240 2018-10-18T08:08:20  <sipa> karelb: you have no idea how often this comes up :)
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 242 2018-10-18T08:08:21  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Sjors opened pull request #14509: [doc] getblocktemplate: use SegWit in example (0.17...2018/10/backport-doc-getblocktemplate-segwit) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14509
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 244 2018-10-18T08:08:28  <karelb> wumpus: ahh, with what result?
 245 2018-10-18T08:08:36  <karelb> sipa hahaha ok
 246 2018-10-18T08:08:50  <wumpus> karelb: people didn't really care ,even the ones that brought it up in the first place
 247 2018-10-18T08:08:52  <sipa> it always turns into a bikeshedding over redesigning the entire RPC interface
 248 2018-10-18T08:08:55  <wumpus> yess and that
 249 2018-10-18T08:08:57  <karelb> ..  oh
 250 2018-10-18T08:09:14  <wumpus> we already *accept* strings for amounts, btw
 251 2018-10-18T08:09:21  <sipa> also (and i'm aware this is somewhat pedantic), JSON doesn't having a concept of floating point
 252 2018-10-18T08:09:25  <sipa> it has numbers
 253 2018-10-18T08:09:30  <wumpus> but this is just not worth changing at this point, I think...
 254 2018-10-18T08:10:00  <wumpus> everyone who cared back in the day will have their own specific JSON parser for interfacing to bitcoind now
 255 2018-10-18T08:10:09  <wumpus> it's just, solved at the client side
 256 2018-10-18T08:10:38  <wumpus> and sipa is right too—for everyone's sanity, please just leave this be
 257 2018-10-18T08:10:55  <karelb> :D
 258 2018-10-18T08:12:21  <karelb> ok thx for info. we are not alone in thinking that it's annoying though. good to know :)
 259 2018-10-18T08:12:34  <wumpus> there are literally hundreds of actual user issues reported that need to be solved
 260 2018-10-18T08:14:27  <wumpus> in the end, as the bikeshedding and different 'tastes' suggest, changes resulting from it will just end up making it more difficult for users, breaking the interface, to satisfy some idea of interface purity </topic>
 261 2018-10-18T08:17:15  <wumpus> did we scare away this person with the sheer number of comments on such a small patch #14125
 262 2018-10-18T08:17:18  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14125 | Add testcase to simulate bitcoin schema in leveldb by MapleLaker · Pull Request #14125 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 263 2018-10-18T08:17:21  <kallewoof> TBH, using floats is insane. *shrug*
 264 2018-10-18T08:17:31  <wumpus> the world, is insane
 265 2018-10-18T08:17:34  <sipa> karelb: also, inside bitcoin core there no conversion of amounts to floats ever (except feerates), even to convert to JSON
 266 2018-10-18T08:17:47  <kallewoof> wumpus: we could make it less so or contribute to its insanity lol
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 268 2018-10-18T08:18:12  <wumpus> kallewoof: what if every initiative tom ake it more sane actually makes it more insane
 269 2018-10-18T08:18:13  <kallewoof> It's been raised countless times though. I still have hope that one day we will be saying sat/byte rather than btc/kb (*weeps*)
 270 2018-10-18T08:18:28  <kallewoof> Yeah... there's that.
 271 2018-10-18T08:18:33  <wumpus> omg .. please
 272 2018-10-18T08:18:34  <wumpus> STOP
 273 2018-10-18T08:19:13  <sipa> saying... sure :)
 274 2018-10-18T08:19:14  <kallewoof> I apparently stepped on something. My apologies, I'll shut up now.
 275 2018-10-18T08:19:30  <karelb> (why solve hard issues when you can bikeshed interfaces :)) ok got you
 276 2018-10-18T08:20:59  <karelb> I will add this to "weird stuff Bitcoin does for backwards compatibility reasons", just next to the endian switching
 277 2018-10-18T08:21:33  <sipa> bitcoin uses little endian everywhere, except when presenting things for human consumption :)
 278 2018-10-18T08:21:51  <sipa> (and inside sha256 which you should treat as a black box that converts bytes to bytes)
 279 2018-10-18T08:23:10  <wumpus> sipa: I think that's what makes him right in that it is a similar thing; just the interface
 280 2018-10-18T08:24:04  <sipa> fair
 281 2018-10-18T08:24:08  <wumpus> over the years, people have adopted to this convention, even though the convention itself might or might not make sense has become irrelevant
 282 2018-10-18T08:25:08  <sipa> i'm just suffering from stockholm syndrome, trying to defend the original reasoning behind the convention which is now completely irrelevant :)
 283 2018-10-18T08:25:25  <wumpus> indeed :)
 284 2018-10-18T08:26:11  <karelb> well that's what I think about as "backwards compatibility" :)
 285 2018-10-18T08:27:26  <wumpus> though I mean, it might still be interesting to know how something got a certain way for historical reasons
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 287 2018-10-18T08:27:57  <wumpus> yes
 288 2018-10-18T08:30:09  <sipa> meshcollider: in the P2WSH-multisig test in 14454 you're only importing one of the two private keys
 289 2018-10-18T08:30:28  <sipa> if i change it to have both, i expect the result to become ismine:true, but it doesn't
 290 2018-10-18T08:30:57  <meshcollider> sipa: the ismine logic never treats a multisig as mine
 291 2018-10-18T08:31:00  <meshcollider> even if we have all the keys
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 293 2018-10-18T08:31:19  <meshcollider> thats unrelated to this PR, maybe a fault there though
 294 2018-10-18T08:31:31  <sipa> meshcollider: yes it does?
 295 2018-10-18T08:31:38  <sipa> if you have all the private keys
 296 2018-10-18T08:32:34  <sipa> not bare multisig, though
 297 2018-10-18T08:32:40  <meshcollider> Oh I must be thinking of bare multisig
 298 2018-10-18T08:32:41  <sipa> but P2WSH-multisig, i don't see why not
 299 2018-10-18T08:32:47  <meshcollider> hmm
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 301 2018-10-18T08:34:18  <sipa> (i wouldn't care at all if the functionality was different - it all makes equally little sense - but i want to understand why the behaviour doesn't match what i think the code does)
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 304 2018-10-18T08:37:32  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 5 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/041224a75c16...9c5f0d542d1d
 305 2018-10-18T08:37:32  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 86eb3b3 Chun Kuan Lee: utils: Add fsbridge fstream function wrapper
 306 2018-10-18T08:37:33  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master a554cc9 Chun Kuan Lee: Move boost/std fstream to fsbridge
 307 2018-10-18T08:37:33  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master f86a571 Chun Kuan Lee: tests: Add test case for std::ios_base::ate
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 310 2018-10-18T08:38:14  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #13878:  utils: Add fstream wrapper to allow to pass unicode filename on Windows (master...iofstream-custom) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13878
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 312 2018-10-18T08:40:31  <meshcollider> indeed that's confusing
 313 2018-10-18T08:43:25  * sipa needs sleep
 314 2018-10-18T08:46:49  <wumpus> goodnight sipa
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 318 2018-10-18T08:59:28  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 3 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/9c5f0d542d1d...d98777f302e1
 319 2018-10-18T08:59:29  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master ea3009e Pierre Rochard: wallet: Add walletdir arg unit tests
 320 2018-10-18T08:59:29  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2d47163 Pierre Rochard: wallet: Remove trailing separators from -walletdir arg
 321 2018-10-18T08:59:30  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master d98777f Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #14146: wallet: Remove trailing separators from -walletdir arg...
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 324 2018-10-18T09:00:22  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #14146: wallet: Remove trailing separators from -walletdir arg (master...wallet-env-bug) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14146
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 328 2018-10-18T09:06:29  <promag> wumpus: from https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E17275_01/html/programmer_reference/magic.txt the magic is the same for Btree, or am I wrong?
 329 2018-10-18T09:08:45  <promag> so I should just replace memcmp with uint32_t != uint32_t?
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 332 2018-10-18T09:29:26  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] practicalswift opened pull request #14510: Avoid triggering undefined behaviour in base_uint<BITS>::bits() (master...1<<31) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14510
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 336 2018-10-18T09:42:44  <promag> I think https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14291/commits/21c475119949f0fde0a478e4f3ad301c5be0c497 would work in both endianness
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 338 2018-10-18T09:58:42  <wumpus> so *I think* you'd want to check for the magic in both endian-nesses, whether you do that by memcmp or uint32_t != is equivalent
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 341 2018-10-18T10:03:08  <wumpus> but if you don't, and only compare against the native one, that's a valid choice but you need to document it with a comment, because wallets copied from a system with another endian will not show up
 342 2018-10-18T10:03:25  <wumpus> I don't think always comparing against  the LE value even on BE-native systems makes sense
 343 2018-10-18T10:03:38  <wumpus> as it means they won't see their native wallets
 344 2018-10-18T10:03:45  <wumpus> which is worse than not seeing ported ones
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 348 2018-10-18T10:26:50  *** bitcoin-git has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 349 2018-10-18T10:26:50  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/d98777f302e1...32c5f188d4fd
 350 2018-10-18T10:26:51  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master b0510d7 Hennadii Stepanov: Set C locale for amountWidget...
 351 2018-10-18T10:26:51  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 32c5f18 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #14177: qt: Set C locale for amountWidget...
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 353 2018-10-18T10:27:40  *** bitcoin-git has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 354 2018-10-18T10:27:40  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #14177: qt: Set C locale for amountWidget (master...fix-amount-locale) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14177
 355 2018-10-18T10:27:40  *** bitcoin-git has left #bitcoin-core-dev
 356 2018-10-18T10:30:57  <luke-jr> ugh, bdb isn't endian-independent? -.-
 357 2018-10-18T10:31:45  *** bitcoin-git has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 358 2018-10-18T10:31:46  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 3 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/32c5f188d4fd...fe23553edd84
 359 2018-10-18T10:31:47  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 3045704 Hennadii Stepanov: Add "Blocksdir" to Debug window...
 360 2018-10-18T10:31:47  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2ab9140 Hennadii Stepanov: Add tooltips for both datadir and blocksdir
 361 2018-10-18T10:31:47  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fe23553 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #14374: qt: Add "Blocksdir" to Debug window...
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 364 2018-10-18T10:32:44  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #14374: qt: Add "Blocksdir" to Debug window (master...20181002-debugwindow-blocksdir) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14374
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 375 2018-10-18T11:02:21  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] ken2812221 closed pull request #13887: build: Compile leveldb with unicode enable on Windows (master...leveldb-windows-unicode) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13887
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 383 2018-10-18T11:17:39  <promag> ken2812221: are you aware of https://medium.com/@leandrw/speeding-up-wsl-i-o-up-than-5x-fast-saving-a-lot-of-battery-life-cpu-usage-c3537dd03c74 ?
 384 2018-10-18T11:18:34  <wumpus> luke-jr: we're not sure; what is clear is that bdb databases can have either endian, and are created with host endian, what we *don't* know is whether they are interchangeable (they probably are)
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 391 2018-10-18T12:08:26  <promag> wumpus: see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14291/commits/b791ef12c3605c185432e391e1571853b07a7441
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 396 2018-10-18T12:21:45  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] merland opened pull request #14511: Increase storage requirement from 100GB to 200GB (master...patch-1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14511
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 410 2018-10-18T12:51:21  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] merland opened pull request #14512: Textual improvements (master...merland-patch-2) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14512
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 424 2018-10-18T13:56:29  <wumpus> promag: LGTM
 425 2018-10-18T14:12:32  *** BladeZero has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 426 2018-10-18T14:12:56  <BladeZero> Hey dudes.  Want a Torrentleech invite for free?
 427 2018-10-18T14:15:57  *** AhNo1 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 428 2018-10-18T14:17:20  <BladeZero> fo free
 429 2018-10-18T14:17:29  <BladeZero> What's your e-mail right now?
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 432 2018-10-18T14:26:39  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o wumpus
 433 2018-10-18T14:27:13  *** wumpus sets mode: +b *!*o@
 434 2018-10-18T14:27:18  *** wumpus sets mode: +b *!*@
 435 2018-10-18T14:27:20  *** BladeZero was kicked by wumpus (BladeZero)
 436 2018-10-18T14:27:28  *** wumpus sets mode: -b *!*o@
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 443 2018-10-18T14:58:50  <promag> wumpus: can I squash 14291?
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 446 2018-10-18T15:06:23  <wumpus> depends on wheter other people want to review the changes commit by commit I guess?
 447 2018-10-18T15:06:38  <wumpus> I don't think squashing too often is good
 448 2018-10-18T15:07:09  *** ChanServ sets mode: -o wumpus
 449 2018-10-18T15:07:23  <promag> ok, I'll just wait then
 450 2018-10-18T15:07:24  <luke-jr> I assume he means the fixup!s, not everything :p
 451 2018-10-18T15:07:43  <wumpus> yes, I understood that :p
 452 2018-10-18T15:11:09  *** promag has quit IRC
 453 2018-10-18T15:12:56  <wumpus> I only mentioned that because promag has the tendency to squash fixups immediately, this makes it difficult to check whether comments were adressed, it's prbably best to do it once before merge
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 455 2018-10-18T15:16:29  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto closed pull request #14427: docs: Add config file docs to '-help' messages (master...20181004-help-config) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14427
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 464 2018-10-18T16:29:24  <IceHard> hello all :))))))
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 470 2018-10-18T16:36:56  <promag> wumpus: ^ noted
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 473 2018-10-18T16:57:13  <instagibbs> hm is --enable-debug not enough to avoid "value has been optimized out" anymore?
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 476 2018-10-18T16:58:38  <jnewbery> promag: apologies, I haven't been very active in reviewing recently. I know there are a bunch of PRs that I need to catch up on.
 477 2018-10-18T16:59:10  <jnewbery> I don't think 13339 necessarily needs to go into project 2. I think we can probably just close project 2 once 13100 is merged
 478 2018-10-18T17:03:05  <wumpus> instagibbs: it usually is, though even with -Og it's possible that things are optimized out, you might want to try explicitly overriding CXXFLAGS to -O0
 479 2018-10-18T17:03:21  <wumpus> (and yes, even with that you can still get that ...)
 480 2018-10-18T17:07:37  <sipa> i don't think i've ever seen <value optimized out> at -O0
 481 2018-10-18T17:08:42  <gmaxwell> 01:07:44 < karelb> thinking out loud- yesterday we talked with colleague how we hate that JSON RPC returns BTC values as floats. (
 482 2018-10-18T17:08:49  <gmaxwell> karelb: the json rpc values ARE NOT FLOATS
 483 2018-10-18T17:09:55  <gmaxwell> json spec defines those values as "numbers" which have exact precision.  it's up to implementations how they represent them.
 484 2018-10-18T17:10:11  <gmaxwell> in Bitcoin core they're just 64 bit integers.
 485 2018-10-18T17:11:18  <karelb> I didn't read json spec, isn't json spec supposed to compatible with JavaScript, which will interpret that as floating point?
 486 2018-10-18T17:12:48  <gmaxwell> karelb: no, as wikipedia says, "Numbers in JSON are agnostic with regard to their representation within programming languages."
 487 2018-10-18T17:13:01  <wumpus> no, json spec does not refer to the javascript spec
 488 2018-10-18T17:13:30  <jarthur> It's flexible, though the RFC indeed recommends it be compatible with the double float as used by JavaScript - https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7159#section-6
 489 2018-10-18T17:13:47  <wumpus> it's entirely self contained and very short, you should read it
 490 2018-10-18T17:13:51  <karelb> I thought json is supposed to be a strict subset of JS. ok I was wrong
 491 2018-10-18T17:14:16  <wumpus> as any format spec it only describes the *syntax* not how things should be stored
 492 2018-10-18T17:14:20  <gmaxwell> since JS accepts random stuff and does random stuff with it, I suppose this IRC log is a strict subset of js. :P
 493 2018-10-18T17:14:29  <wumpus> hehe exactly
 494 2018-10-18T17:14:44  <karelb> 🙂
 495 2018-10-18T17:15:21  <gmaxwell> There were patches floating around to add quotes around the amount values in bitcoind's rpc that can make it easier to correctly deal with values when you're stuck with a typical, stupid, json library.
 496 2018-10-18T17:17:06  *** Krellan has quit IRC
 497 2018-10-18T17:18:16  <karelb> ... oh json spec is really deadly simple
 498 2018-10-18T17:19:20  *** Tralfaz has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 499 2018-10-18T17:20:51  <wumpus> gmaxwell: yes, it's trivial change to ValueFromAmount if you really want to, though I'd suggest looking at a better suited JSONRPC library, by now for most languages there's something for bitcoin specifically
 500 2018-10-18T17:21:41  <wumpus> ok that wasn't really directed at gmaxwell
 501 2018-10-18T17:22:31  *** Krellan has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 502 2018-10-18T17:32:16  *** Krellan has quit IRC
 503 2018-10-18T17:33:22  *** IceHard has quit IRC
 504 2018-10-18T17:43:02  *** Krellan has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 505 2018-10-18T17:49:18  *** Murch has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 506 2018-10-18T17:55:19  *** AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 507 2018-10-18T18:01:53  <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, iirc even if they are floats they're not in a range where it would be an issue
 508 2018-10-18T18:05:12  <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: but floats are binary, so they can't store fifths accurately, and you will need to round to get the right numbers
 509 2018-10-18T18:06:22  <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: depends on what you mean by float, common bitcoin values don't fit precisely in 32-bit floats, they do in 64-bit doubles.
 510 2018-10-18T18:10:11  *** Krellan has quit IRC
 511 2018-10-18T18:10:49  <jarthur> Interestingly JavaScript has an integer type now. You can play around with it in the Chrome developer console, just put 'n' after the numerals, like 1359873196781496491761916n
 512 2018-10-18T18:12:05  <wumpus> yes the different ECMA standards are slighly different in that regard
 513 2018-10-18T18:15:59  <wumpus> 'javascript' itself is ambigious, though, none of that reflects on JSON which is well-defined
 514 2018-10-18T18:16:00  <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, iirc basically all js implementations are double right?
 515 2018-10-18T18:17:01  <andytoshi> yes, but the problem is that a lot of json parsers do stupid things and lose accuracy anyway
 516 2018-10-18T18:21:02  *** rh0nj has quit IRC
 517 2018-10-18T18:22:12  *** rh0nj has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 518 2018-10-18T18:28:18  <phantomcircuit> andytoshi, yeah i guess that's the real thing
 519 2018-10-18T18:28:21  *** promag has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 520 2018-10-18T18:30:49  *** promag has quit IRC
 521 2018-10-18T18:35:57  <wumpus> yes, off-by-ones are pretty common
 522 2018-10-18T18:37:23  <wumpus> as luke-jr says floats can't represent 1/5th (or 1e-8 for that matter) exactly so there's always some rounding going on
 523 2018-10-18T18:37:50  <wumpus> (floats of any precision)
 524 2018-10-18T18:41:21  *** Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 525 2018-10-18T18:41:23  * wumpus wishes any of the common serialization formats had a decimal type
 526 2018-10-18T18:41:31  <wumpus> an explicit one, I mean
 527 2018-10-18T18:43:09  <luke-jr> decimal sucks though :p
 528 2018-10-18T18:43:39  *** AaronvanW has quit IRC
 529 2018-10-18T18:43:54  <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: the old json library bitcoin used to use randomly inserted conversions to float in a minor upgrade!
 530 2018-10-18T18:43:55  <wumpus> for better or worse it's the choice for monetary values
 531 2018-10-18T18:44:39  <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, :/
 532 2018-10-18T18:45:13  <wumpus> as you can't really make an assumption about the precision, yes if you write software for bitcoin specifically you can hardcode 10^-8, but anythign that needs to interface between different systems and APIs and databases needs to convert between them on their own terms
 533 2018-10-18T18:56:31  *** clarkmoody has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 534 2018-10-18T18:59:21  *** promag has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 535 2018-10-18T19:00:45  <luke-jr> hi?
 536 2018-10-18T19:01:20  <BlueMatt> mtg?
 537 2018-10-18T19:01:38  <sipa> ohai
 538 2018-10-18T19:02:05  <gmaxwell> ??!?
 539 2018-10-18T19:02:06  <achow101> hi
 540 2018-10-18T19:02:08  <gleb> hi
 541 2018-10-18T19:02:09  <luke-jr> ohayo
 542 2018-10-18T19:02:16  <jonasschnelli> hi
 543 2018-10-18T19:02:27  <BlueMatt> wherefor art thou wumpus
 544 2018-10-18T19:02:39  <sipa> we need to hunt the wumpus
 545 2018-10-18T19:03:06  <luke-jr> do we hunt the wumpus with nuclear, DDoS, or 51% attack?
 546 2018-10-18T19:03:07  <BlueMatt> dont hunt wumpus :O
 547 2018-10-18T19:03:10  <promag> hi
 548 2018-10-18T19:04:02  * luke-jr drops a hat on BlueMatt's head?
 549 2018-10-18T19:04:07  <jonasschnelli> #startmeeting
 550 2018-10-18T19:04:07  <lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Oct 18 19:04:07 2018 UTC.  The chair is jonasschnelli. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
 551 2018-10-18T19:04:07  <lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
 552 2018-10-18T19:04:13  <jonasschnelli> Topics?
 553 2018-10-18T19:04:15  <wumpus> hello
 554 2018-10-18T19:04:23  *** rex4539 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 555 2018-10-18T19:04:28  <luke-jr> there he is
 556 2018-10-18T19:05:01  *** belcher has quit IRC
 557 2018-10-18T19:05:05  <jnewbery> hi
 558 2018-10-18T19:05:16  <wumpus> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr btcdrak sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag provoostenator
 559 2018-10-18T19:06:03  <meshcollider> hi
 560 2018-10-18T19:06:30  <promag> topics suggestion, (remove?) address book
 561 2018-10-18T19:06:35  <jonasschnelli> #topic high priority list
 562 2018-10-18T19:06:36  <jonasschnelli> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8
 563 2018-10-18T19:06:42  <jonasschnelli> anything to add / del?
 564 2018-10-18T19:06:52  <instagibbs> hi
 565 2018-10-18T19:07:11  <wumpus> ListWalletDir is pretty much mergeable, needs sign-off on the last change
 566 2018-10-18T19:08:03  *** lnostdal has quit IRC
 567 2018-10-18T19:08:04  <wumpus> there was some confusion around BerkekleyDB and its endian handling, apparently it writes databases in native endian, but we're not 100% sure the database files are portable between little and big endian
 568 2018-10-18T19:08:12  *** Krellan has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 569 2018-10-18T19:08:24  <wumpus> (most likely they are and it's smart enough to interpret databases in alt endian)
 570 2018-10-18T19:08:30  <gmaxwell> wumpus: I'll test sometime in the next couple days, I'm pretty sure that it'll just convert it.
 571 2018-10-18T19:08:31  *** AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 572 2018-10-18T19:08:37  <promag> jonasschnelli: I don't mind replacing 14291 with 14350
 573 2018-10-18T19:08:43  <sipa> i'd like #14150 on the high priority list
 574 2018-10-18T19:08:45  <promag> gmaxwell: that would be cool
 575 2018-10-18T19:08:47  <meshcollider> Yeah I'm fairly sure it'll be fine with both
 576 2018-10-18T19:08:47  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14150 | Add key origin support to descriptors by sipa · Pull Request #14150 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 577 2018-10-18T19:08:51  <wumpus> gmaxwell: great !
 578 2018-10-18T19:08:58  <jnewbery> Should #14416 be high priority? I don't think there's anything to review, but the issue is important.
 579 2018-10-18T19:09:00  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14416 | [WIP] fix OSX dmg issue (10.12 to 10.14) by jonasschnelli · Pull Request #14416 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 580 2018-10-18T19:09:07  *** Krellan has quit IRC
 581 2018-10-18T19:09:09  <wumpus> jnewbery: sure
 582 2018-10-18T19:09:10  <jonasschnelli> sipa: added
 583 2018-10-18T19:09:20  <jnewbery> jonasschnelli: any update on that issue?
 584 2018-10-18T19:09:42  <jonasschnelli> promag: changed
 585 2018-10-18T19:09:48  <promag> jonasschnelli: ty
 586 2018-10-18T19:09:50  *** Krellan has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 587 2018-10-18T19:09:51  <meshcollider> I'd like #14454 on there please
 588 2018-10-18T19:09:55  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14454 | Add SegWit support to importmulti by MeshCollider · Pull Request #14454 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 589 2018-10-18T19:09:59  <jonasschnelli> jnewbery: I'm currently investigating... but haven't found the issue yet
 590 2018-10-18T19:10:01  <promag> IIRC the idea was to create DS_Store with xenial?
 591 2018-10-18T19:10:01  <wumpus> although it's still WIP so normally that doesn't qualify
 592 2018-10-18T19:10:16  <jonasschnelli> meshcollider: done
 593 2018-10-18T19:10:32  *** belcher has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 594 2018-10-18T19:10:32  <meshcollider> jonasschnelli: thanks :)
 595 2018-10-18T19:10:43  <jonasschnelli> #topic ds_store OSX issue
 596 2018-10-18T19:10:54  <jnewbery> wumpus: yeah, it's not high priority for review, but I'd say it's high priority to fix!
 597 2018-10-18T19:10:57  <jonasschnelli> i'm currently removing instruction by instruction to figure out, where the issue is
 598 2018-10-18T19:11:07  <jonasschnelli> (always. requires a gitian build)
 599 2018-10-18T19:11:13  <wumpus> jnewbery: would agree on that
 600 2018-10-18T19:11:39  <jonasschnelli> help from cfields would be welcome... but I guess his busy with other things
 601 2018-10-18T19:12:44  <jonasschnelli> Anyways,.. I'm on it.
 602 2018-10-18T19:12:45  <wumpus> so if anyone knows MacOSX low-level details about DS_store, please help with that issue
 603 2018-10-18T19:13:05  <jonasschnelli> #topic (remove?) address book (promag)
 604 2018-10-18T19:13:16  <wumpus> it's an undocumented, reverse-engineered format so it's quite hard to get right
 605 2018-10-18T19:13:23  <jonasschnelli> wumpus: indeed
 606 2018-10-18T19:13:40  <promag> We could remove access to the address book from the File Menu
 607 2018-10-18T19:14:01  <promag> so people would have to go to receive
 608 2018-10-18T19:14:06  <luke-jr> does the dmg have translations in it?
 609 2018-10-18T19:14:11  *** AaronvanW has quit IRC
 610 2018-10-18T19:14:20  <instagibbs> ack 14150
 611 2018-10-18T19:14:22  <jonasschnelli> luke-jr: Yes
 612 2018-10-18T19:14:24  <wumpus> any specific reason to remove this functionality?
 613 2018-10-18T19:14:34  <luke-jr> jonasschnelli: I wonder if that's related. Do older versions' DMGs work?
 614 2018-10-18T19:14:36  <jonasschnelli> #14150
 615 2018-10-18T19:14:38  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14150 | Add key origin support to descriptors by sipa · Pull Request #14150 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 616 2018-10-18T19:14:39  <achow101> promag: isn't that the only way to change labels from the gui?
 617 2018-10-18T19:15:02  <promag> 
 618 2018-10-18T19:15:05  <wumpus> achow101: you an also edit label from the transaction list
 619 2018-10-18T19:15:15  <wumpus> (right button context menu)
 620 2018-10-18T19:15:37  <promag> gmaxwell: knows better about the complaints/questions
 621 2018-10-18T19:15:42  <jonasschnelli> In the long run, the address book makes little sense to me...
 622 2018-10-18T19:15:44  <gmaxwell> wumpus: I don't know the context either,  when I heard it above I assumed because it's been involved with the recent confusion about the get new address removal button and encourages address reuse.
 623 2018-10-18T19:15:51  <jonasschnelli> But I guess there are still users using it...
 624 2018-10-18T19:15:57  <gmaxwell> okay so that is the context.
 625 2018-10-18T19:16:02  <achow101> wumpus: that's... non-obvious
 626 2018-10-18T19:16:18  <meshcollider> that requires actually having a transaction then
 627 2018-10-18T19:16:24  <promag> but looks like people will reuse addresses not that the "new button" is gone
 628 2018-10-18T19:16:34  <promag> s/not/now
 629 2018-10-18T19:16:45  <jonasschnelli> *sigh*
 630 2018-10-18T19:16:47  <luke-jr> ugh
 631 2018-10-18T19:16:48  <wumpus> could re-add that button
 632 2018-10-18T19:16:49  <gmaxwell> wumpus: 0.17 really confused a lot of people due to the removal of the new button there.  I've now seen more than a dozen questions about it online (linked some here, previously).
 633 2018-10-18T19:17:08  <wumpus> if people miss that, i'm not sure removing even more functionality is the right way forward
 634 2018-10-18T19:17:12  *** belcher_ has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 635 2018-10-18T19:17:25  <wumpus> let's revert the remove and call it a day, users happy and it's easy
 636 2018-10-18T19:17:31  <achow101> concept nack on removing the address book. it'll just make people more confused
 637 2018-10-18T19:17:31  <promag> but I think that's because people goes to File menu and then they see the "received addresses"
 638 2018-10-18T19:17:36  <gmaxwell> wumpus: as gwillen points out, the 'request payment' button is really not-obvious.
 639 2018-10-18T19:17:49  <achow101> promag: instead of removing it, rename it to be more clear?
 640 2018-10-18T19:17:50  <jonasschnelli> PR: #12721 (remove)
 641 2018-10-18T19:17:51  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/12721 | Qt: remove "new" button during receive-mode in addressbook by jonasschnelli · Pull Request #12721 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 642 2018-10-18T19:18:14  <luke-jr> achow101: we can revert + rename to cover both bases
 643 2018-10-18T19:18:26  *** belcher has quit IRC
 644 2018-10-18T19:18:27  <achow101> luke-jr: +1
 645 2018-10-18T19:18:32  <wumpus> yes
 646 2018-10-18T19:18:37  <gmaxwell> I wasn't previously thinking that we should remove the address book, but maybe we should:  What use is it beyond enabling reuse?  I do think if we don't remove it we should revert the removal.
 647 2018-10-18T19:18:40  <sipa> i think just adding text to the adress book that says "Use the receive payment tab to create new addresses" would help a lot already
 648 2018-10-18T19:18:42  <jonasschnelli> Or we can add a hint: "use Receive tab to create a new address"?
 649 2018-10-18T19:18:49  <jonasschnelli> :-)
 650 2018-10-18T19:18:56  <wumpus> removing the address book will probably result in even more complaints
 651 2018-10-18T19:19:05  <luke-jr> sipa: true
 652 2018-10-18T19:19:10  <sipa> but many wallets don't even have a concept of an address book
 653 2018-10-18T19:19:22  <gmaxwell> The complaints themselves aren't the concept, the resulting confusion is. :)
 654 2018-10-18T19:19:22  <wumpus> not worth it imo unless there's a really good story to do it besides 'it encourages re-use' as that's nothing new
 655 2018-10-18T19:19:35  <jarthur> People use the signing feature quite a bit.
 656 2018-10-18T19:19:47  <jonasschnelli> oh.. for that. Yes.
 657 2018-10-18T19:19:53  <luke-jr> jarthur: misuse* I suspect :/
 658 2018-10-18T19:20:04  <gmaxwell> Okay, thats a reason to keep/rename.
 659 2018-10-18T19:20:11  <jonasschnelli> What about.. a) warn about address reuse, b) add hint to receive tab for new addresses?
 660 2018-10-18T19:20:19  <meshcollider> Theres an issue for renaming btw #14482
 661 2018-10-18T19:20:20  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14482 | Better name for "Request Payment" button · Issue #14482 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 662 2018-10-18T19:20:23  <achow101> topic suggestion: plans for new windows code signing key
 663 2018-10-18T19:20:24  <gmaxwell> Users really shouldn't be using it to get addresses to pay for.
 664 2018-10-18T19:20:35  <promag> gmaxwell: exactly
 665 2018-10-18T19:20:41  <jonasschnelli> Agree
 666 2018-10-18T19:20:52  <wumpus> no, they shouldn't, but for better or worse they're used to that
 667 2018-10-18T19:21:11  <luke-jr> I'm not really sure a clear rename for it btw
 668 2018-10-18T19:21:15  <gmaxwell> Re "request payment" being confusing, I had an argument with multiple people _in here_ because they believed "Request Payment" was somehow BIP70. So I think it's not disputable that its confusing. :P
 669 2018-10-18T19:21:18  <wumpus> it's not really easy to change people's behavior
 670 2018-10-18T19:21:25  <promag> I think we should improve the UI, remove address book from File menu, improve receive tab
 671 2018-10-18T19:21:30  <jonasschnelli> Agree also with gmaxwell
 672 2018-10-18T19:21:36  <gmaxwell> promag: +1
 673 2018-10-18T19:21:41  <jonasschnelli> "Request payment" is confusing
 674 2018-10-18T19:21:56  <jonasschnelli> Yes. Please do that promag
 675 2018-10-18T19:21:57  <wumpus> how is it called in other wallets?
 676 2018-10-18T19:22:01  <luke-jr> we could add sign message to the request-payment dialog probably
 677 2018-10-18T19:22:04  <gmaxwell> it doesn't exist in other wallets.
 678 2018-10-18T19:22:05  <jonasschnelli> wumpus "Receive"
 679 2018-10-18T19:22:14  <wumpus> well let's rename to that
 680 2018-10-18T19:22:15  <gmaxwell> oh you mean getting an address, 'recieve'
 681 2018-10-18T19:22:30  <gmaxwell> (my doesn't exist was referring to the address book)
 682 2018-10-18T19:22:32  <luke-jr> "Receive" implies you would receive it immediately :x
 683 2018-10-18T19:22:35  <jonasschnelli> And then maybe automatically show the next unused address?
 684 2018-10-18T19:22:36  <wumpus> if it doesnt' exist then maybe we should remove it too
 685 2018-10-18T19:22:48  <gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: the workflow can stay the same.
 686 2018-10-18T19:23:22  <wumpus> I wouldn't change the workflow too much either
 687 2018-10-18T19:23:34  <wumpus> lots of people will be used to that workflow too
 688 2018-10-18T19:23:38  <gmaxwell> Just change the label to make it more discoverable.
 689 2018-10-18T19:23:42  <wumpus> if you change that too much, you'll get the same issue in another place
 690 2018-10-18T19:23:50  <jonasschnelli> Wait,.. the tab is already labeled with "Receive", right? We are talking about the button for creating a new address?
 691 2018-10-18T19:23:57  <wumpus> yes, the tab is Receive
 692 2018-10-18T19:23:58  <wumpus> always has been
 693 2018-10-18T19:23:59  <gmaxwell> And the address book, should be moved out of the way... if it's utlity is just sign message it should be treated that way.
 694 2018-10-18T19:23:59  <meshcollider> Yep
 695 2018-10-18T19:24:26  <jonasschnelli> I think there should be a "new address" button and a "receive specific amount" button where you get prompted for amount / label
 696 2018-10-18T19:24:27  <luke-jr> gmaxwell: signing messages only makes sense pre-receive, so even that can be moved somewhere more logical (eg, part of the receive tab)
 697 2018-10-18T19:24:34  <promag> jonasschnelli: yes
 698 2018-10-18T19:24:49  <luke-jr> jonasschnelli: label is always desirable
 699 2018-10-18T19:25:00  <wumpus> I think 'make the workflow more apparent' is better than changing it
 700 2018-10-18T19:25:06  <jnewbery> meta-topic suggestion: does it make sense to discuss qt UI issues in the general bitcoin core IRC meeting?
 701 2018-10-18T19:25:13  <gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: label should always be availble, but I don't think a parallel button would be bad.
 702 2018-10-18T19:25:34  *** rex4539 has quit IRC
 703 2018-10-18T19:25:34  <wumpus> jnewbery: well the UI is part of the code base, if we don't want to discuss it, we should remove it
 704 2018-10-18T19:25:42  <sipa> meta-comment: at coredev tokyo it was suggested to have a separate wallet meeting as well, every 2 weeks
 705 2018-10-18T19:25:45  <gmaxwell> How about we just discuss nothing, jnewbery because there is no element of the software which is interesting to everyone.
 706 2018-10-18T19:25:52  <wumpus> as long as it is part of the code base it should be discussable in the meeting
 707 2018-10-18T19:26:10  <wumpus> gmaxwell: exactly
 708 2018-10-18T19:26:20  <jonasschnelli> Long term, multiple meeting make sense, until we have that, UI belong here
 709 2018-10-18T19:26:22  <jnewbery> My point was more along the lines of what sipa is talking about: the project doesn't scale if everyone discusses everything
 710 2018-10-18T19:26:24  <jonasschnelli> +s
 711 2018-10-18T19:26:24  <wumpus> it's already hard enough to fill the meetings hour many times
 712 2018-10-18T19:26:32  <wumpus> I don't think we should be discussing getting rid of cetain topics
 713 2018-10-18T19:26:41  <wumpus> but that's just IMO
 714 2018-10-18T19:26:50  <luke-jr> maybe when/if meetings get cut off due to time ;)
 715 2018-10-18T19:26:56  <gmaxwell> jnewbery: if we're always running out of time that would be a concern, but we seldom do.
 716 2018-10-18T19:27:03  <wumpus> yes, then it's time to prioritize certain topics
 717 2018-10-18T19:27:05  <jnewbery> ok, let me rephrase: does it make sense to have a separate meeting for qt issues?
 718 2018-10-18T19:27:11  <wumpus> no, I don't think so
 719 2018-10-18T19:27:13  <gmaxwell> And it's useful, even if you mostly don't care about something to occassionally get exposed to them.
 720 2018-10-18T19:27:50  <wumpus> as soon as the GUI is a aseparate project, that makes sense to reconsider.
 721 2018-10-18T19:27:58  <gmaxwell> certantly ignorance about the GUI contributes to problems in the software already... (see my above comment that there were _developers_ that though request payment was bip70).
 722 2018-10-18T19:28:30  <wumpus> and to be clear I think it's absurd the GUI and other things are the same repository as consensus code, but that's a wholly differnt issue, I don't think we have any problem in that regard with the meeting
 723 2018-10-18T19:28:59  <jonasschnelli> Indeed
 724 2018-10-18T19:29:29  <jonasschnelli> #action overhaul the receive page, overhaul the address-book to cure confusion with 0.17
 725 2018-10-18T19:29:54  <jonasschnelli> #topic plans for new windows code signing key (achow101)
 726 2018-10-18T19:29:58  <promag> ok thanks, I'll add screenshots too
 727 2018-10-18T19:30:02  <wumpus> gmaxwell: it's clear most of the developers here don't give a shit about the gui
 728 2018-10-18T19:30:06  <wumpus> gmaxwell: always has been
 729 2018-10-18T19:30:20  <jnewbery> my other topic suggestion was having a separate wallet meeting (which sipa already mentioned)
 730 2018-10-18T19:30:44  <achow101> the windows signing key expires just before the next release is scheduled
 731 2018-10-18T19:30:50  <wumpus> it has always been a thankless job maintainging it, lots of respect to jonasschnelli for that :D
 732 2018-10-18T19:31:02  <jonasschnelli> Though I should do more. :)
 733 2018-10-18T19:31:06  <achow101> IIRC there were plans to do mpc rsa stuff to replace it, did anything come of that?
 734 2018-10-18T19:31:14  <jonasschnelli> achow101: I don't think so..
 735 2018-10-18T19:31:25  <jonasschnelli> Have you talked wo cfields (current Win signing key owner)?
 736 2018-10-18T19:31:32  <jonasschnelli> s/wo/to
 737 2018-10-18T19:31:54  <achow101> not yet. I only just noticed as I was looking at the key details today
 738 2018-10-18T19:31:58  <meshcollider> I thought he was working on something
 739 2018-10-18T19:31:59  <jonasschnelli> Ideally we get new keys also via the Bitcoin Core Code Signing Association (http://bitcoincorecodesigning.org)
 740 2018-10-18T19:32:31  <gmaxwell> achow101: I have it working for three parties, but got stuck extending it for more.
 741 2018-10-18T19:32:36  <jonasschnelli> achow101: thanks for pointing that out,.. better care about earlier then when its too late
 742 2018-10-18T19:33:27  <gmaxwell> achow101: would you lie to try the MPC with me at some point?
 743 2018-10-18T19:33:33  <achow101> gmaxwell: sure
 744 2018-10-18T19:33:50  <jonasschnelli> Maybe MPC it's not worth it. IMO windows code signing is more or less security theatre...
 745 2018-10-18T19:33:53  *** bitconner has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
 746 2018-10-18T19:34:17  <wumpus> does it give users problems if it's not signed?
 747 2018-10-18T19:34:22  <gmaxwell> Yes.
 748 2018-10-18T19:34:29  <achow101> wumpus: windows gives scary warnings
 749 2018-10-18T19:34:33  <gmaxwell> you get warnings that the software might be malicious.
 750 2018-10-18T19:34:36  <jonasschnelli> I think no-one would recognise if the certificate would be issued to "Bitcoin Cash Code Signing Association"
 751 2018-10-18T19:34:53  <jonasschnelli> We need to sign it for UX,.. but much for security reasons.
 752 2018-10-18T19:34:53  <meshcollider> jonasschnelli: how difficult is it to get a key for the code signing association then
 753 2018-10-18T19:34:57  <luke-jr> jonasschnelli: meaning nobody would mind, or it would freak them out?
 754 2018-10-18T19:35:00  <meshcollider> I'm unfamiliar with the process
 755 2018-10-18T19:35:13  <meshcollider> luke-jr: I'd say it would freak people out tbh
 756 2018-10-18T19:35:13  <achow101> luke-jr: I think no one would mind or even notice the name is different
 757 2018-10-18T19:35:15  <gmaxwell> luke-jr: he's saying no one would notice, I think thats mostly right.
 758 2018-10-18T19:35:34  <meshcollider> Not the different name, but not signing at all
 759 2018-10-18T19:35:38  <jonasschnelli> I founded an swiss association with no legal paper, no real address and could get a D-U-N-S address and an iOS apple enterprise program. So.. security means shit here.
 760 2018-10-18T19:35:46  <gmaxwell> (though the 'bitcoin foundation' thing did have an unfortunate effect of making people think BCF made the bitcoin software)
 761 2018-10-18T19:36:03  <luke-jr> "Bitcoin Cash Code Signing Association" hopefully wouldn't have that confusion
 762 2018-10-18T19:36:12  <jonasschnelli> Getting Windows signing key should be a simple task,.. we just need to decide on a cert supplier
 763 2018-10-18T19:37:12  <jonasschnelli> Lets wait on cfields though,.. he has the most knowhow here (before any action, buying certs, etc.)
 764 2018-10-18T19:37:22  <wumpus> jonasschnelli: it's still more work for scammers than nothing at all! but yes, not much.
 765 2018-10-18T19:37:46  <jonasschnelli> wumpus: Yes. But people may think, oh, its code signing, so it must be "secure" (false sense of sec.)
 766 2018-10-18T19:38:15  <jonasschnelli> The only difference is that some CA guy clicked to okay button after reading an address (for most CAs)
 767 2018-10-18T19:38:16  <wumpus> oh yes I don't disagree the user perception of what signingmeans is completely wrong
 768 2018-10-18T19:38:38  <meshcollider> IMO anyone confused by what the code signing means probably isn't aware of code signing at all?
 769 2018-10-18T19:38:58  <meshcollider> Users just get software and run it
 770 2018-10-18T19:39:02  <sipa> really it's a way to make some platforms shut up about untrusted code
 771 2018-10-18T19:39:12  <luke-jr> I suspect nobody would really notice if we stopped codesigning
 772 2018-10-18T19:39:12  <wumpus> sipa: yep
 773 2018-10-18T19:39:15  <meshcollider> Exactly
 774 2018-10-18T19:39:24  <gmaxwell> luke-jr: they would, because they get a big nasty warning
 775 2018-10-18T19:39:28  <meshcollider> luke-jr: I disagree, yeah
 776 2018-10-18T19:39:35  <luke-jr> maybe if we timed it right, we could use it as an opportunity to teach PGP verification
 777 2018-10-18T19:39:39  <jonasschnelli> If we want secure "update", we should finally have a "verificator" function in Core
 778 2018-10-18T19:40:13  <jonasschnelli> Some glue code that does gitian verification against a downloaded binary dummy-save
 779 2018-10-18T19:40:15  <luke-jr> gmaxwell: a warning they're used to clicking through all the time..?
 780 2018-10-18T19:40:25  <gmaxwell> luke-jr: most software is signed.
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 782 2018-10-18T19:40:34  <achow101> luke-jr: no, it's actually a warning on top of the normal warning
 783 2018-10-18T19:40:37  <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, maybe it should be an "open source code signing association"
 784 2018-10-18T19:40:50  <phantomcircuit> rather than something bitcoin specific? (even if it's only signing bitcoin in practice)
 785 2018-10-18T19:41:03  <sipa> we talked about that a while ago
 786 2018-10-18T19:41:06  <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: jonasschnelli already set it up, for better or worse
 787 2018-10-18T19:41:16  <sipa> that it could just be something that signs off on deterministic builds
 788 2018-10-18T19:41:18  <meshcollider> phantomcircuit: if we already have the iOS certificate with the bitcoin one the windows one should be the same
 789 2018-10-18T19:41:25  <jonasschnelli> phantomcircuit: I think "Bitcoin Core" should be in the name
 790 2018-10-18T19:41:27  <luke-jr> although I suppose if there's a desire for a broader codesigning org, we could make another
 791 2018-10-18T19:41:43  <sipa> luke-jr: agree
 792 2018-10-18T19:41:53  <jonasschnelli> phantomcircuit: its somehow the only binding "guarantee" for the user
 793 2018-10-18T19:42:09  <phantomcircuit> this seems likely to be an issue faced by numerous projects
 794 2018-10-18T19:42:11  <luke-jr> jonasschnelli: ? seems like it would just reaffirm the false sense of security
 795 2018-10-18T19:42:21  <jonasschnelli> luke-jr: somehow,.. yes. :)
 796 2018-10-18T19:42:32  <luke-jr> jonasschnelli: a more obviously-dummy org name might prompt a real security verification
 797 2018-10-18T19:42:34  <phantomcircuit> it's certainly no actual security
 798 2018-10-18T19:42:42  <luke-jr> maybe we should call it Malware Signing Group
 799 2018-10-18T19:42:44  <luke-jr> :P
 800 2018-10-18T19:42:48  <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, doubtful honestly
 801 2018-10-18T19:42:59  <jonasschnelli> heh
 802 2018-10-18T19:43:01  <achow101> luke-jr: you wouldn't get issued a cert with that name
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 804 2018-10-18T19:43:15  <jonasschnelli> Oh.. I'm sure you would
 805 2018-10-18T19:43:26  <luke-jr> Check The PGP Signatures, LLC
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 808 2018-10-18T19:44:36  <jonasschnelli> #topic suggestion was having a separate wallet meeting (which sipa already mentioned) (jnewbery)
 809 2018-10-18T19:44:40  <jonasschnelli> -suggestion
 810 2018-10-18T19:45:04  <wumpus> would this involve different people than the current meeting?
 811 2018-10-18T19:45:15  <achow101> how much wallet stuff is there to discuss?
 812 2018-10-18T19:45:18  <jnewbery> This was brought up in Tokyo. People seemed keen to have a separate meeting (perhaps once every two weeks) to discuss wallet issues
 813 2018-10-18T19:45:25  <meshcollider> And is it worth it until there's more actual separation
 814 2018-10-18T19:45:35  <wumpus> achow101: yes.. exactly.. how much wallet stuff do we discuss
 815 2018-10-18T19:45:41  <jonasschnelli> I think it worth it if we run constantly out of time
 816 2018-10-18T19:45:44  <wumpus> but if people want that, why not
 817 2018-10-18T19:45:50  <luke-jr> just the Core wallet, or wallets in general?
 818 2018-10-18T19:46:05  <jnewbery> Code/repo separation is somewhat orthogonal to project separation
 819 2018-10-18T19:46:08  <wumpus> luke-jr: wallets in general would make more sense I guess
 820 2018-10-18T19:46:13  <meshcollider> Worth noting that if we had a separate meeting, it might promote more discussion even if we don't have it right now
 821 2018-10-18T19:46:13  <gmaxwell> the disadvantage is just having to reserve and schedule more time.
 822 2018-10-18T19:46:14  <luke-jr> perhaps a S3ND IRC meeting or something
 823 2018-10-18T19:46:16  <jnewbery> Bitcoin core wallet
 824 2018-10-18T19:46:20  <sipa> wumpus: i think the question is more whether there are topics people don't bring up here because they're too work-in-progress or not relevant enough to bring up for everyone
 825 2018-10-18T19:46:22  <wumpus> we need a wallet maintainer...
 826 2018-10-18T19:46:26  <instagibbs> gmaxwell, depends on how big the group is
 827 2018-10-18T19:46:27  <gmaxwell> but maybe some things about the wallet aren't getting discussed in here.
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 829 2018-10-18T19:46:52  <meshcollider> wumpus: how do we train someone for that job then
 830 2018-10-18T19:46:54  <instagibbs> in Tokyo there were a small handful who discussed some short term improvements, wouldn't be hard to coordinate among those
 831 2018-10-18T19:47:26  <wumpus> exactly; it makes sense to coordinate among the people who are interested in having this meeting
 832 2018-10-18T19:47:31  <meshcollider> For example I think there would be some good discussion around descriptor stuff in the near future right?
 833 2018-10-18T19:47:39  <gmaxwell> If people who want to talk about wallet stuff more want another meeting, great.
 834 2018-10-18T19:47:39  <wumpus> if you want to organize a meeting about your part of the code, go ahead
 835 2018-10-18T19:47:43  <jonasschnelli> Agree with wumpus
 836 2018-10-18T19:47:55  <jonasschnelli> (I'm happy to join that meeting)
 837 2018-10-18T19:47:57  * sipa suggests: same time, fridays, every two weeks
 838 2018-10-18T19:47:59  <wumpus> meetingbot is here and we'll respect it and shut up during it :)
 839 2018-10-18T19:48:10  <jnewbery> a couple of questions: how many people are interested? Should it be in here or a different channel?
 840 2018-10-18T19:48:16  <meshcollider> I'm interested
 841 2018-10-18T19:48:18  <gmaxwell> It should be here.
 842 2018-10-18T19:48:19  <jonasschnelli> we should probably list the meeting(s) somewhere (bitcoincore.org?)
 843 2018-10-18T19:48:20  <sipa> i'd rather keep it in this channel
 844 2018-10-18T19:48:25  <jonasschnelli> ack
 845 2018-10-18T19:48:45  <luke-jr> jnewbery: I'm not entirely disinterested, but I don't think I have time for it
 846 2018-10-18T19:48:46  <wumpus> yes, why not this channel
 847 2018-10-18T19:48:58  <gmaxwell> If there is anything so important going on that the meeting interrupting it would be a problem, then probably the meeting would be heled off in any case. :)
 848 2018-10-18T19:48:58  <achow101> sipa: +1 (re date and time)
 849 2018-10-18T19:49:08  <gmaxwell> held*
 850 2018-10-18T19:49:21  <sipa> being in this channel may encourage others to participate (or at least lurk and see what's being worked on)
 851 2018-10-18T19:49:27  <meshcollider> I was very confused because I thought it *was* Friday, but then I remembered you're all in the wrong time zone
 852 2018-10-18T19:49:34  <luke-jr> lol
 853 2018-10-18T19:49:49  <jonasschnelli> * has a while thought that meeting could be done in voice via jitsi *duck*
 854 2018-10-18T19:49:52  <meshcollider> +1 then
 855 2018-10-18T19:49:53  <achow101> meshcollider: at least we're not upside down
 856 2018-10-18T19:49:58  <meshcollider> :(
 857 2018-10-18T19:50:07  <gmaxwell> What would be bad is if it siphons wallet discussion off into places where fewer people see it.  Keeping it in the same place would be a minor improement.
 858 2018-10-18T19:50:13  <jnewbery> so Friday for us would be saturday for meshcollider. Is that ok for you, or would you prefer it on a week day?
 859 2018-10-18T19:50:39  <meshcollider> Saturday is probably preferable even, less conflict with lectures
 860 2018-10-18T19:50:42  <sipa> (i'm suggesting friday because i already have meetings on all other days around that time)
 861 2018-10-18T19:51:02  <sipa> but that's a personal preference and i'm sure i can accomodate other times
 862 2018-10-18T19:51:45  <meshcollider> So are we starting this tomorrow then?
 863 2018-10-18T19:52:11  <jnewbery> ok, let's try for Friday then. I can't this week or next week. I'm happy to chair, or equally happy if someone else wants to volunteer
 864 2018-10-18T19:52:15  <jonasschnelli> We can do a poll?
 865 2018-10-18T19:52:40  <gmaxwell> It's probably better to start sooner, the first few meetings of this sort of thing are usually poorly attended. :P
 866 2018-10-18T19:52:48  <gmaxwell> better get that out of the way.
 867 2018-10-18T19:52:56  <sipa> i'm happy to chair as well
 868 2018-10-18T19:53:02  <luke-jr> does GUI move to wallet meetings or stay here?
 869 2018-10-18T19:53:17  <sipa> i wouldn't say anything "moves"
 870 2018-10-18T19:53:25  <meshcollider> Chair of wallet meeting = new wallet maintainer :D
 871 2018-10-18T19:53:29  <jonasschnelli> Wallet GUI in wallet, rest-GUI here?
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 873 2018-10-18T19:53:38  <jonasschnelli> meshcollider: lol
 874 2018-10-18T19:54:01  <gmaxwell> I wouldn't say moves either. We should expect some duplication, with the extended discussion in comittee.
 875 2018-10-18T19:54:13  <jonasschnelli> Yes. That's fine I guess.
 876 2018-10-18T19:54:16  <gmaxwell> Otherwise, people get forced to attend all meetings, which I think is a non-goal.
 877 2018-10-18T19:54:29  <instagibbs> +1
 878 2018-10-18T19:54:46  <achow101> ack
 879 2018-10-18T19:55:02  <meshcollider> +1
 880 2018-10-18T19:55:03  <jnewbery> yeah, the suggestion ceratinly isn't that wallet isn't discussed in regular weekly meetings
 881 2018-10-18T19:55:51  <booyah> luke-jr: I would notice last of signs on binaries and/or on git tags. FYI :)
 882 2018-10-18T19:56:02  <luke-jr> FWIW, someone is already telling me OOB that there will be outrage if the address book is removed :P
 883 2018-10-18T19:56:20  <luke-jr> booyah: huh?
 884 2018-10-18T19:56:28  <jnewbery> topic suggestion: I think aj was going to bring up IRC meeting logs on bitcoincore.org today
 885 2018-10-18T19:56:33  <jnewbery> not sure if he's here
 886 2018-10-18T19:56:43  <jonasschnelli> 3.5min left. :/
 887 2018-10-18T19:57:02  <luke-jr> pause the clock?
 888 2018-10-18T19:57:03  <gmaxwell> luke-jr: we weren't going to anyways, but what is the use they are referring to.
 889 2018-10-18T19:57:36  <gmaxwell> The action was to just refactor the interface some to make it less confusing.
 890 2018-10-18T19:57:48  <jnewbery> I guess if aj isn't here there's not much to talk about
 891 2018-10-18T19:57:49  <luke-jr> gmaxwell: apparently to "see all their addresses in one place"; I don't really get it
 892 2018-10-18T19:58:04  <gmaxwell> Though I'm interested in hearing about what the use of it is.
 893 2018-10-18T19:58:12  <gmaxwell> (other than signmessage)
 894 2018-10-18T19:58:25  <molz> lol
 895 2018-10-18T19:58:36  <booyah> luke-jr: I mean that some people do check signatures on binaries (from bitcoincore.org) and on git. Though now I see you could mean the windows specific signatures on exe, dunno how much people would care about that one
 896 2018-10-18T19:58:46  <luke-jr> booyah: rigth
 897 2018-10-18T19:58:57  <wumpus> yes, some people like the address book, could have told you so
 898 2018-10-18T19:59:54  <molz> gmaxwell, i know some people do save every address they have, like forever, and they save the wallet.dats they have and they like to see all their addresses in the address book, so i told luke in another channel that yes i think they would be mad at you guys if you get rid of the address book
 899 2018-10-18T19:59:56  <wumpus> you're going to get complaints if you remove it, that's why I said there's better be a very good reason/story to do so, "it's easy to reuse addresses" is nothing new
 900 2018-10-18T20:00:18  <jonasschnelli> #endmeeting good night, good morning or enjoy your lunch
 901 2018-10-18T20:00:18  <lightningbot> Meeting ended Thu Oct 18 20:00:18 2018 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
 902 2018-10-18T20:00:18  <lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2018/bitcoin-core-dev.2018-10-18-19.04.html
 903 2018-10-18T20:00:18  <lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2018/bitcoin-core-dev.2018-10-18-19.04.txt
 904 2018-10-18T20:00:18  <lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2018/bitcoin-core-dev.2018-10-18-19.04.log.html
 905 2018-10-18T20:00:24  <wumpus> that's been an issue since 2010 and I don't see why it warrants removal of anything now, personally
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 910 2018-10-18T20:01:46  <promag> molz: my suggestion is to move it away from the File Menu (not sure why is there)
 911 2018-10-18T20:01:47  <booyah> one use case might be, to view easily all my addresses ever used, all my recipients addresses, to retrospect a bit about for example how much privacy about me is leaked about me in blockchain
 912 2018-10-18T20:01:59  <booyah> like... did I ever transffered money to wikileaks or not (from this wallet)
 913 2018-10-18T20:02:22  <sipa> oh, this is about send addresses?
 914 2018-10-18T20:02:36  <booyah> I guess that is also visible in gui (mostly familiar with cli not gui) in tx history? but is it as easly accessible and wiht comments?
 915 2018-10-18T20:03:00  <gmaxwell> wumpus: we have been generally doing things to move away from reuse for a long time.
 916 2018-10-18T20:03:10  <jonasschnelli> sipa: there are both
 917 2018-10-18T20:03:24  <gmaxwell> _complaints_ are a one time thing, we shouldn't shy away from an actual intentional improvement because some people will complain.
 918 2018-10-18T20:03:41  <gmaxwell> I've been raising issues with the complaints because the confusion we're getting now wasn't intentional or expected.
 919 2018-10-18T20:04:03  <gmaxwell> They're a problem because people are confused, can't figure out how to get a new address... they're not a problem just because they're complaining.
 920 2018-10-18T20:04:06  <sipa> i think addressing the confusion is separate really from the address book
 921 2018-10-18T20:04:53  <wumpus> gmaxwell: still, I think the most straightforward is just to return the button
 922 2018-10-18T20:05:00  <wumpus> gmaxwell: instead of trying to re-educate people
 923 2018-10-18T20:05:27  <luke-jr> wumpus: return the button, but make it show a "this is how you do it" prompt and switch the tab? :p
 924 2018-10-18T20:05:32  <wumpus> then agian I'm not a GUI designer nor pretending to be one
 925 2018-10-18T20:06:07  <luke-jr> says the guy who wrote bitcoin-qt..
 926 2018-10-18T20:06:35  <booyah> luke-jr: embbed a twitch stream with some slim cryptogirl showing how to do it >_>
 927 2018-10-18T20:06:36  <wumpus> yess I'm... not sure how I got involved in this at all tbh, I made bitcoin-qt because I thought it would help get actual GUI people invovled, make it easier for them
 928 2018-10-18T20:06:40  <promag> I think "File -> Receiving Addresses" is too powerful and misleading - old users are used to that and have to learn the new way
 929 2018-10-18T20:06:52  <sipa> wumpus: i think it has, actually
 930 2018-10-18T20:07:01  <sipa> wumpus: though perhaps to a lesser extent than you hoped
 931 2018-10-18T20:07:08  <promag> "Window -> Address Book" with 2 tabs or whatever just does the job for those that want that
 932 2018-10-18T20:07:16  <wumpus> I didn't expect this (apart from jonasschnelli who is doing a great job, as I said)
 933 2018-10-18T20:07:22  <wumpus> sipa: sure!
 934 2018-10-18T20:07:51  <luke-jr> I certainly would not have done anything with the GUI if not for wumpus's port
 935 2018-10-18T20:08:08  <wumpus> I think we can all agree wxwindows was even worse :-)
 936 2018-10-18T20:08:46  <promag> fortunately I'm not not from that time :P
 937 2018-10-18T20:08:48  <gmaxwell> wumpus: I think we should probably return the button, move the address book to where people will misuse it less, AND make the recieve button we want people to use more obvious. :P
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 939 2018-10-18T20:08:58  <jonasschnelli> I think if we bring a "light client" mode during IBD and some throttling function, then redesign the GUI a bit, it will increase its userbase significant... although not sure if we want that. /
 940 2018-10-18T20:09:16  <luke-jr> jonasschnelli: want what?
 941 2018-10-18T20:09:27  <wumpus> I don't see how increasing the user base could ever be bad
 942 2018-10-18T20:09:35  <jonasschnelli> luke-jr: a large user base of novice users
 943 2018-10-18T20:09:38  <luke-jr> increasing the user base is essential :/
 944 2018-10-18T20:09:53  <luke-jr> dangerously too many people aren't using their own full node right now
 945 2018-10-18T20:10:06  <wumpus> I mean, if that's not the point we could do with a command-line UI
 946 2018-10-18T20:10:13  <jonasschnelli> Yes. Thats a point.
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 948 2018-10-18T20:10:40  <sipa> pfff, netcat and JSON-RPC aren't that that hard
 949 2018-10-18T20:10:43  <sipa> :p
 950 2018-10-18T20:11:01  <promag> wumpus: btw I think 14453 is done
 951 2018-10-18T20:11:11  <luke-jr> speaking of which, I'd like to get the Windows/Mac builds automatically installing and setting up a Tor hidden service .. ?
 952 2018-10-18T20:11:19  <wumpus> though I agree with you there's .. some limit, we can extend the user base, but as an open source project we can never compete with bigcorp UIs in user friendlyness support etc
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 954 2018-10-18T20:12:16  <wumpus> luke-jr: a bitcoin core-tor bundle has been talked about since 2012 at least
 955 2018-10-18T20:12:33  <wumpus> I'm... not sure where all those years went, but we're still not there yet ;)
 956 2018-10-18T20:13:06  <wumpus> promag: thank you
 957 2018-10-18T20:13:53  <wumpus> luke-jr: at least the torcontrol support should be one step along the way, most of the work left is packaging etc
 958 2018-10-18T20:14:31  <luke-jr> wumpus: yes, I think we're pretty close now
 959 2018-10-18T20:14:42  <gmaxwell> wumpus: I think we should focus on power users and (esp small/medium scale) commercial users for that reason.
 960 2018-10-18T20:15:16  <wumpus> gmaxwell: yes, I think that makes most sense
 961 2018-10-18T20:15:35  <gmaxwell> since we'll never bring ourselves to be the best at ease of use (esp since we'd have a hard time agreeing to trade off privacy or security for ease of use)
 962 2018-10-18T20:16:37  <wumpus> right, don't really want to compromise everything for 'ease of use', we have a much harder goal, it should be user friendly and still accomplish those goals..
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 967 2018-10-18T20:28:07  <wumpus> argh things like #14510 really want me to stop bothering with c++
 968 2018-10-18T20:28:09  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14510 | Avoid triggering undefined behaviour in base_uint ::bits() by practicalswift · Pull Request #14510 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 969 2018-10-18T20:29:37  <gmaxwell> at least the compilers can just warn about that.
 970 2018-10-18T20:30:57  <wumpus> so this is undefined behavior, the thing that could spawn unicorns or swallow galaxies or other arbitrary behavior
 971 2018-10-18T20:33:30  <wumpus> this particular instance hasn't killed us yet
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 978 2018-10-18T20:56:13  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/fe23553edd84...3715b2489e98
 979 2018-10-18T20:56:13  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 96f6dc9 practicalswift: Avoid triggering undefined behaviour in base_uint<BITS>::bits()
 980 2018-10-18T20:56:14  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 3715b24 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #14510: Avoid triggering undefined behaviour in base_uint<BITS>::bits()...
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 983 2018-10-18T20:57:27  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #14510: Avoid triggering undefined behaviour in base_uint<BITS>::bits() (master...1<<31) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14510
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 986 2018-10-18T21:09:45  <hebasto> wumpus: may you look into #14409 ?
 987 2018-10-18T21:09:47  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14409 | utils and libraries: Make blocksdir always net specific by hebasto · Pull Request #14409 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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 990 2018-10-18T21:15:34  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] practicalswift opened pull request #14513: Avoid 1 << 31 (UB) in calculation of SEQUENCE_LOCKTIME_DISABLE_FLAG (master...1<<31-again) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14513
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 997 2018-10-18T21:32:06  <phantomcircuit> im not sure exactly how to deal with detecting functional poll() support
 998 2018-10-18T21:32:12  <phantomcircuit> it's definitely broken on windows
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1004 2018-10-18T21:35:39  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] practicalswift closed pull request #14506: Remove redundancies: redundant forward declaration, redundant namespace, redundant copying, redundant conditionals (master...remove) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14506
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1006 2018-10-18T21:37:31  <wumpus> definitely don't use poll on windows
1007 2018-10-18T21:37:36  *** bitcoin-git has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
1008 2018-10-18T21:37:36  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] practicalswift closed pull request #13897: clientversion: Define only macros we’ll use (master...remove-unused-macros) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13897
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1011 2018-10-18T21:37:54  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] practicalswift closed pull request #13548: Document assumptions made in PeerLogicValidation::SendMessages(...) and rescanblockchain(...) (master...document-non-nullptr-assumptions) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13548
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1013 2018-10-18T21:38:15  <wumpus> every *POSIX* OS supports poll()
1014 2018-10-18T21:38:23  <wumpus> so that's everything we support, except windows
1015 2018-10-18T21:46:15  <wumpus> select on windows doesn't have the same problems as select on unices anyhow; just keep using it
1016 2018-10-18T21:48:41  <sipa> it's pretty inefficient (stores the fds in a linked list afaik), but it doesn't have a hard limit on the number of watched fds or ooen files
1017 2018-10-18T21:48:55  <luke-jr> re bundling tor: it's a shame Tor has stopped using gitian :/
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1020 2018-10-18T21:52:29  <wumpus> sipa: so does windwos have any better alternative? at least not poll...
1021 2018-10-18T21:53:21  <luke-jr> Windows has an alternative that requires a different paradigm IIRC
1022 2018-10-18T21:53:43  <luke-jr> you read/write and get told when it's done; rather than waiting for read/writability
1023 2018-10-18T21:54:26  <wumpus> right, some async notification
1024 2018-10-18T22:13:36  <promag> meshcollider: achow101: can you take a look at #14291 so I can squash?
1025 2018-10-18T22:13:39  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14291 | wallet: Add ListWalletDir utility function by promag · Pull Request #14291 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
1026 2018-10-18T22:14:33  <meshcollider> promag: sure :)
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1030 2018-10-18T22:24:56  <wumpus> yes let's squash and merge it
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1032 2018-10-18T22:26:10  <meshcollider> +1
1033 2018-10-18T22:30:08  <promag> thanks guys, squash and push done, waiting to ci
1034 2018-10-18T22:30:21  <promag> err, for ci
1035 2018-10-18T22:36:25  <wumpus> how crap is C++ that even defining a constant can be undefined behavior, without the compiler complaining?
1036 2018-10-18T22:36:45  <meshcollider> promag: thank you for taking that up btw
1037 2018-10-18T22:37:01  <meshcollider> wumpus: no doubt about it lol
1038 2018-10-18T22:37:20  <sipa> wumpus: presumably because in the actual implementation it isn't undefined
1039 2018-10-18T22:37:57  <wumpus> sipa: I'm not sure I understand, hwo can it be defined in the implementation but not in the language?
1040 2018-10-18T22:38:12  <sipa> wumpus: non-standard extension to the language
1041 2018-10-18T22:38:29  <wumpus> I really don't understand it, I'm not sure how I've even been able to use it without knowing this
1042 2018-10-18T22:38:42  <wumpus> how much broken code I must have written
1043 2018-10-18T22:39:00  <gmaxwell> The compiler can freely implementation define any undefined behavior.
1044 2018-10-18T22:39:09  <sipa> in practice, compilers implement a language that is significantly closer to people's expectations than what the actual standard specifies
1045 2018-10-18T22:39:12  <wumpus> the many times i've written 1<<something without thinking about this
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1047 2018-10-18T22:39:22  <wumpus> it's sad
1048 2018-10-18T22:39:42  <gmaxwell> and C/C++ code is typically FULL of stuff that a wonkish read of the language is undefined.
1049 2018-10-18T22:39:44  <promag> sipa: could you reack 14453? comment added and a variable renamed.
1050 2018-10-18T22:40:26  <wumpus> gmaxwell: isn't that bizarre
1051 2018-10-18T22:41:01  <gwillen> a lot of it is just due to the tight binding between C and asm
1052 2018-10-18T22:41:10  <wumpus> tight binding?
1053 2018-10-18T22:41:14  <sipa> C historically is much worse in that regard than C++
1054 2018-10-18T22:41:16  <gwillen> where a lot of the most natural interpretations of technically-undefined behavior, i.e. what it does if you're not clever, is whatever the CPU does
1055 2018-10-18T22:41:23  <wumpus> i'm convinced I can write better assembly than c++ at this point
1056 2018-10-18T22:41:35  <gwillen> for example, in a twos-complement environment, signed integer overflow naturally works
1057 2018-10-18T22:41:38  <gwillen> and people have come to rely on it
1058 2018-10-18T22:41:40  <wumpus> at least the instructions simply mean what htey do
1059 2018-10-18T22:41:41  <gwillen> but in C it is undefined
1060 2018-10-18T22:41:44  <gmaxwell> gwillen: I don't think that has anything to do with C binding with ASM.
1061 2018-10-18T22:41:53  <luke-jr> wumpus: ironically, the fix here is also undefined behaviour >.>
1062 2018-10-18T22:42:02  <gwillen> well, binding with the environment it was born in
1063 2018-10-18T22:42:03  <wumpus> assembly language is.. mechanical, well documented
1064 2018-10-18T22:42:09  <sipa> wumpus: there are plenty of machine code instructions without well documented behaviour too :)
1065 2018-10-18T22:42:21  <gwillen> like, the reason people come to expect undefined things to still work is that they just do whatever the natural implementation is if you didn't care about it
1066 2018-10-18T22:42:22  <wumpus> okay
1067 2018-10-18T22:42:27  <luke-jr> (just undefined behaviour we rely on, for now)
1068 2018-10-18T22:42:38  <gwillen> if signed overflow trapped in the CPU then people wouldn't rely on it working in C
1069 2018-10-18T22:42:55  <gwillen> and then get nailed when the compiler writers take it away
1070 2018-10-18T22:43:12  <luke-jr> (it's still undefined, because unsigned int is only required to be 16 bits, not 32)
1071 2018-10-18T22:43:35  <sipa> luke-jr: that's implementation defined :)
1072 2018-10-18T22:44:10  <wumpus> implementation defined makes some sense
1073 2018-10-18T22:44:10  <sipa> luke-jr: if the unsigned int type is 32 bits, then shifts up to 31 bits are well defined
1074 2018-10-18T22:44:19  <wumpus> like 'int' types being the natural size for an architecture
1075 2018-10-18T22:44:22  <wumpus> that's not ub
1076 2018-10-18T22:44:24  <sipa> so you can write platform specific code that's fully correct
1077 2018-10-18T22:45:06  <gwillen> I mean, we also have uint32_t and the like now, so we don't ever have to rely on the length of a native int
1078 2018-10-18T22:45:21  <sipa> yeah...
1079 2018-10-18T22:45:22  <wumpus> that's indeed the result of a direct mapping from C to te underlying architecture as gwillen said
1080 2018-10-18T22:45:26  <gwillen> (and rust made imo the right choice to kill the native int)
1081 2018-10-18T22:45:40  <gwillen> (I mean you can still ask for it, but it isn't named "int" anymore so nobody's tempted)
1082 2018-10-18T22:45:47  <sipa> the uintX_t and uint_fast_X_t model is a far better than the arbitrary mapping for short/int/long
1083 2018-10-18T22:45:54  <luke-jr> native int does make sense for some things
1084 2018-10-18T22:46:08  <luke-jr> like <15 bit iteration loops
1085 2018-10-18T22:46:22  <sipa> luke-jr: you know of uint_fast16_t for example?
1086 2018-10-18T22:46:35  <luke-jr> sipa: vaguely; I don't have its semantics memorised
1087 2018-10-18T22:46:39  <gwillen> sipa: I don't know about this!
1088 2018-10-18T22:46:49  <gwillen> is that "at least 16 but something the cpu likes"?
1089 2018-10-18T22:46:52  <sipa> it's a data type that's at least 16 bits, but may be larger if larger is faster to work with
1090 2018-10-18T22:47:00  <gwillen> that's cool, I had no idea
1091 2018-10-18T22:47:09  <wumpus> yes there's a whole zoo of data types in stdint.h
1092 2018-10-18T22:47:14  <luke-jr> so by definition the same as unsigned int? :P
1093 2018-10-18T22:47:42  <gwillen> I don't think unsigned int is required to be fast
1094 2018-10-18T22:47:48  <gwillen> you could make it 16 if you wanted to be perverse
1095 2018-10-18T22:48:01  <luke-jr> but it's supposed to be the fastest for the platform, IIRC?
1096 2018-10-18T22:48:15  <sipa> there is also uint_least16_t for example, which is the smallest type that supports 16 bits
1097 2018-10-18T22:48:27  <sipa> (in case there is no actual type with 16 bits of width)
1098 2018-10-18T22:48:28  <gwillen> it's not required to be anything in particular, e.g. on 64-bit platforms int is usually still 32 but sometimes 64 depending on what model you're using
1099 2018-10-18T22:48:33  <gwillen> even though 64 is probably faster to work with
1100 2018-10-18T22:48:53  <gwillen> (I think people have generally settled on 32 for int, 64 is rare now, but in the early 64-bit days it was up in the air I believe)
1101 2018-10-18T22:49:33  <sipa> on windows 64, int and long are both 32 bits
1102 2018-10-18T22:50:11  <wumpus> right, instruction sets tend to have instructions for working with either 32 or 64 bit because of that, 16 or 8 is usually slower because of extra ands etc
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1104 2018-10-18T22:50:14  <gmaxwell> wumpus: re the additional 1<<31, I commented about that on the other PR.  ... I'm not sure why the compiler doesn't warn about that.  It may be that doing that is so common that they don't warn.
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1106 2018-10-18T22:50:53  <sipa> yeah, c++14 makes it well defined evne
1107 2018-10-18T22:51:09  <luke-jr> clang does warn for it with -Weverything
1108 2018-10-18T22:51:15  <luke-jr> a.c:2:18: warning: signed shift result (0x80000000) sets the sign bit of the shift expression's type ('int') and becomes negative [-Wshift-sign-overflow]
1109 2018-10-18T22:51:17  <phantomcircuit> wumpus, seems to be broken on HPUX but im not sure we care really
1110 2018-10-18T22:51:28  <luke-jr> (IIRC it also miscompiles it)
1111 2018-10-18T22:51:45  <wumpus> phantomcircuit: didn't HPUX die in 2000 or o
1112 2018-10-18T22:52:03  <sipa> which probably means "treat as unsigned, and convert back to signed" is so common in practice (because that's the only reasonable way to compile it on modern platforms)
1113 2018-10-18T22:52:14  <wumpus> we don't need to support museum operating systems
1114 2018-10-18T22:52:15  <phantomcircuit> http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/tech/poll.html
1115 2018-10-18T22:53:05  <luke-jr> I can only imagine how many warnings Core has if we use clang's -Weverything..
1116 2018-10-18T22:53:14  <wumpus> sipa: right, breaking that assumption would likely break all the code in practice
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1118 2018-10-18T22:53:24  <sipa> luke-jr: so that warning tells you it's likely not the behaviour you want (which is a totally reasonable warning), but it's not actually warning that on other platforms this code may be UB
1119 2018-10-18T22:53:26  <phantomcircuit> anything with 0 is broken anything with ? is probably broken
1120 2018-10-18T22:53:36  <sipa> luke-jr: i expect that even in C++14 that warning will still appear
1121 2018-10-18T22:54:00  <wumpus> phantomcircuit: everything and everyone is broken
1122 2018-10-18T22:54:02  <promag> luke-jr: what's the difference to -Wall?
1123 2018-10-18T22:54:11  <luke-jr> sipa: yes
1124 2018-10-18T22:54:17  <luke-jr> promag: -Weverything is a lot more warnings
1125 2018-10-18T22:54:27  <luke-jr> -Wall IIRC is some kind of "everything GCC supports"
1126 2018-10-18T22:55:10  <promag> luke-jr: ty
1127 2018-10-18T22:55:53  <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, it's not any more
1128 2018-10-18T22:55:58  <luke-jr> ?
1129 2018-10-18T22:56:04  <phantomcircuit> there's a bunch of warning flags that -Wall doesn't turn on
1130 2018-10-18T22:56:08  <wumpus> so do I still dare merge anything
1131 2018-10-18T22:56:54  <luke-jr> merge bacon
1132 2018-10-18T22:57:27  <sipa> wumpus: i think we should keep in mind that we're actually fairly restrictive in supported platforms
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1134 2018-10-18T22:58:05  <sipa> where things are far saner than the technical language specification
1135 2018-10-18T22:58:11  <wumpus> sipa: that's true
1136 2018-10-18T22:58:26  <sipa> that doesn't mean we should dismiss these improvements to get us closer to compliance with the standard
1137 2018-10-18T22:58:32  <wumpus> but it could break any time right
1138 2018-10-18T22:58:48  <sipa> have we ever had a bug that was due to a misunderstanding of undefined behaviour?
1139 2018-10-18T22:59:09  <wumpus> I don't think we had, I remember there were some awful bugs in the linux kernel though
1140 2018-10-18T22:59:14  <sipa> wumpus: compilers are very careful generally in not breaking behavior that is relied on in practice
1141 2018-10-18T22:59:20  <gmaxwell> No, I don't believe we have.. the closest is %0 in the bloom filter thing.
1142 2018-10-18T23:00:01  <gmaxwell> (a failure to follow my aversion to any and all division... :P but not UB)
1143 2018-10-18T23:00:27  <sipa> all i'm saying is that we should treat getting rid of reliance on implementation defined as a worthy goal, but it's not a drama that we have in fact for years relied on some totally reasonable but unspecified things in practice
1144 2018-10-18T23:00:31  <sipa> BIP 42 perhaps
1145 2018-10-18T23:00:33  <sipa> :)
1146 2018-10-18T23:00:49  <wumpus> hehe yes BIP42
1147 2018-10-18T23:01:08  <gmaxwell> some of these things which are safe by compiler defined behavior but out of spec are mostly interesting to fix so that we can use stronger testing tools without false positives.
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1149 2018-10-18T23:01:56  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 6 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/3715b2489e98...8eb2cd1ddaab
1150 2018-10-18T23:01:56  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fc4db35 João Barbosa: wallet: Add ListWalletDir utility...
1151 2018-10-18T23:01:57  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master d1b03b8 João Barbosa: interfaces: Add getWalletDir and listWalletDir to Node
1152 2018-10-18T23:01:57  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master cc33773 João Barbosa: rpc: Add listwalletdir RPC
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1155 2018-10-18T23:02:50  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #14291: wallet: Add ListWalletDir utility function (master...2018-09-list-wallet-dir) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14291
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1159 2018-10-18T23:10:18  <meshcollider> \o/
1160 2018-10-18T23:10:48  * gmaxwell cries
1161 2018-10-18T23:10:51  <gmaxwell> https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/9pcfwu/full_node_slow_to_sync_help_needed/
1162 2018-10-18T23:10:54  <gmaxwell> all the bad advice
1163 2018-10-18T23:11:31  <meshcollider> promag: I'll review #14350 after you've rebased it too
1164 2018-10-18T23:11:33  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14350 | Add WalletInfo class by promag · Pull Request #14350 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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1166 2018-10-18T23:12:21  <meshcollider> heh, just as I say that...
1167 2018-10-18T23:13:03  <promag> can you add refactoring label to 14350?
1168 2018-10-18T23:13:42  <promag> thanks
1169 2018-10-18T23:18:43  <gwillen> gmaxwell: my experience is that, as much as the client SHOULD be better than this, "disconnect/reconnect to get better peers" is not bad advie
1170 2018-10-18T23:18:46  <gwillen> advide*
1171 2018-10-18T23:18:52  <gwillen> ... spelling.
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1174 2018-10-18T23:24:19  <booyah> wumpus: gmaxwell: actually, ((int)1) << ((int)31) is *not* UB, it is fully defined
1175 2018-10-18T23:24:49  <booyah> as smart people on ##c++ confirmed my suspicion that UBSAN doesn't cmplain about that operation
1176 2018-10-18T23:24:55  <booyah> legal because: http://eel.is/c++draft/expr.shift#2.sentence-3
1177 2018-10-18T23:24:58  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/2 | Long-term, safe, store-of-value · Issue #2 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
1178 2018-10-18T23:25:06  <sipa> booyah: i believe it is undefined by the C++11 spec, and not in C++14
1179 2018-10-18T23:25:34  <sipa> booyah: that is new language in C++14
1180 2018-10-18T23:26:07  <sipa> C++11 just says if the result of a shift is not representable in a signed type, it is UB
1181 2018-10-18T23:26:55  <booyah> wait, actually it's implementation-defined still.   RandomReader: so this means entire (int)1 << (int)31  is then IB, because of that final conversion after therorethically *2^E2 done as-if values would be unsigned? yes
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1183 2018-10-18T23:31:37  <booyah> yeap ok UB in 11.
1184 2018-10-18T23:36:02  <gmaxwell> gwillen: it's mostly placebo advice. Yes, you may have more apparent progress for a bit, but you'll stall out again. And, of course, any of that has nothing to do with rate limiting. The rate limiting the poster discusses disconnects peers.
1185 2018-10-18T23:38:39  <gwillen> does Core in fact have logic for tossing out slow peers during IBD? My experience has definitely been that it will chug along forever at a trickle unless I force it to switch.
1186 2018-10-18T23:39:31  <sipa> gwillen: yes
1187 2018-10-18T23:39:46  <sipa> gwillen: though it can definitely be improved
1188 2018-10-18T23:40:38  <sipa> the downloading happens in a sliding window of 1024 window, and when all blocks within the window are either downloaded, or waiting for a single peer, that peer is kicked after a few seconds
1189 2018-10-18T23:41:06  <sipa> or in other words, when a single peer is the reason why the window can't advance, that peer is kicked
1190 2018-10-18T23:41:06  <gwillen> ahh hmm, so it could take awhile to trigger the kick
1191 2018-10-18T23:41:13  <gwillen> and if it's two peers you still lose
1192 2018-10-18T23:41:22  <sipa> if you have 2 equally slow peers this logic will never kick in practice
1193 2018-10-18T23:41:29  <sipa> only when one is significantly slower than all others
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1195 2018-10-18T23:42:25  <gwillen> I suspect one benefit of restarting during IBD may be related to Comcast peers (or others with a similar scheme)
1196 2018-10-18T23:42:31  <phantomcircuit> gwillen, restarting can actually break that logic and make things take longer
1197 2018-10-18T23:42:35  <gwillen> they get some kind of temporary bandwidth boost good for a limited number of bytes
1198 2018-10-18T23:42:38  <gwillen> and then they get throttled
1199 2018-10-18T23:42:41  <gwillen> (is my understanding)
1200 2018-10-18T23:42:50  <gwillen> designed to cheat speedtests, if one is cynical
1201 2018-10-18T23:43:37  <phantomcircuit> gwillen, "BOOST!"
1202 2018-10-18T23:43:45  <phantomcircuit> yeah that's literally what it's designed to do
1203 2018-10-18T23:44:40  <gmaxwell> gwillen: the fastest computers we've ever run this on can't sync at more than 50mbit/sec due to other limits.
1204 2018-10-18T23:45:01  <gmaxwell> so that requires 6mbit/sec service from 8 peers, which isn't asking for that much.
1205 2018-10-18T23:47:36  <gwillen> you wouldn't think, but if that were true then IBD would always proceed at full sync speed and nobody would be complaining on reddit about it
1206 2018-10-18T23:48:12  <gwillen> I mean, until I gave in and gave up on sonic, I was a DSL user, so my upload was maybe 1.5 on a good day
1207 2018-10-18T23:48:30  <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, yeah i think the main issue is actually aws nodes
1208 2018-10-18T23:48:43  <phantomcircuit> there they can give you recent blocks but have multi second latency to get old blocks
1209 2018-10-18T23:54:29  <sipa> gwillen: also, a window of 1024 blocks is ginormous for recent blocks
1210 2018-10-18T23:54:37  <gwillen> *nods*
1211 2018-10-18T23:54:40  <sipa> (but kinda small for the first 100000 blocks or so...)
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