1 2018-10-19T00:02:17  <gmaxwell> gwillen: there are a lot of reasons things can be slow.
  2 2018-10-19T00:02:55  <gwillen> yeah, but I know I have a decent CPU, and I know how to check if my own connection is working
  3 2018-10-19T00:03:31  <gmaxwell> including, for example, that when blocks arrive out of order, they'll all processed at once while not emptying the buffers on connections, which are only 5MB in size.
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  5 2018-10-19T00:04:23  <gmaxwell> so when a peer or two is slow and pauses validation, once the missing blocks show up, you'll connect up to 1000 blocks at once, and all your transfers stall out.
  6 2018-10-19T00:04:31  <gwillen> oof, *nod*
  7 2018-10-19T00:05:14  <gmaxwell> and even on a fast computer, 1 second per block to validate during sync isn't too unrealistic.
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 11 2018-10-19T00:16:02  <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, hmm that seems kind of broken
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 13 2018-10-19T00:16:56  <phantomcircuit> how difficult would it be to process one block at a time instead? what kind of negative performance could that cause
 14 2018-10-19T00:17:32  <gmaxwell> the reason it processes all at once is more about not ending up in a weird place during a reorg, rather than anything performance related.
 15 2018-10-19T00:20:22  <sipa> phantomcircuit: we should just reduce the size of the download window later in the chain
 16 2018-10-19T00:20:46  <sipa> it actually releases cs_main briefly in between each block
 17 2018-10-19T00:22:30  <luke-jr> or finally get on with a block weight limit decrease <.<
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 19 2018-10-19T00:25:27  <gmaxwell> sipa: it releases cs_main, but doesn't exit the message handling loop and go empty the queues for the other peers.
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 21 2018-10-19T00:26:18  <gmaxwell> it's really easy to see the effect... bandwidth usage continually drops to zero while syncing.
 22 2018-10-19T00:27:19  <sipa> gmaxwell: yup
 23 2018-10-19T00:27:34  <sipa> the solution to that is doing blocm validation in the background...
 24 2018-10-19T00:28:06  <gmaxwell> or just exit the message handling loop after processing a couple blocks... so that it can go drain the queues for the other peers.
 25 2018-10-19T00:28:56  <sipa> fair; but we'd need to make sure to not process any further messages from the peer until all blocks are processed
 26 2018-10-19T00:29:52  <sipa> but that doesn't sound too hard actually
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 29 2018-10-19T00:37:03  <gmaxwell> Some people, when confronted with a problem, think "I know, I'll use concurrency." Now they have tproblemsow.
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 32 2018-10-19T00:41:47  <sipa> Some people, when confronted with a problem, think "I know, I'll use floating point." Now they have 1.9999997 problems.
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 34 2018-10-19T00:46:37  <andytoshi> in fairness, i can read "tproblemsow" twice as fast as i could read two words
 35 2018-10-19T00:46:40  * andytoshi ducks
 36 2018-10-19T00:52:19  <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, hmm i guess with a reorg we rewind and then walk all the way to the new tip
 37 2018-10-19T00:52:35  <phantomcircuit> could rewind to the split and then do normal sync again with the new headers
 38 2018-10-19T00:54:01  <phantomcircuit> i assume  rewinding is reasonably fast?
 39 2018-10-19T00:54:03  <phantomcircuit> or no
 40 2018-10-19T00:54:34  <gmaxwell> rewinding is slow
 41 2018-10-19T00:54:39  <sipa> phantomcircuit: we release cs_main whenever we're in a state that's better than the previous state
 42 2018-10-19T00:55:01  <sipa> or when we're back in a previous state and there is no valid better chain available
 43 2018-10-19T01:01:59  <gmaxwell> it should just do enough work to get to a better position then it last was and stop.
 44 2018-10-19T01:02:15  <gmaxwell> so a reorg would still block things for a while but otherwise it won't slow down progress generally.
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 48 2018-10-19T01:16:17  <phantomcircuit> sipa, it would be nice if there was something like "step and tell me if you did something"
 49 2018-10-19T01:16:23  <phantomcircuit> then run that in the background
 50 2018-10-19T01:17:06  <sipa> gmaxwell: seems reasonable... but how do you make sure to continue processing blocks when no peer is giving you anything?
 51 2018-10-19T01:17:14  <sipa> whenever the processing timeout fires?
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 54 2018-10-19T01:22:59  <phantomcircuit> sipa, background thread
 55 2018-10-19T01:24:00  <sipa> phantomcircuit: i'm trying to get gmaxwell to see that may be useful :p
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 90 2018-10-19T04:27:25  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #14515: doc: Update OpenBSD build guide for 6.4 (master...openbsd-6-4) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14515
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 93 2018-10-19T04:27:57  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #14314: Trivial: gitignore contents of db4 folder (master...master) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14314
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111 2018-10-19T05:53:18  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sipa pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/8eb2cd1ddaab...d387507aeca6
112 2018-10-19T05:53:18  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master ca6d86c Chun Kuan Lee: tests: Stop node before removing the notification file
113 2018-10-19T05:53:19  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master d387507 Pieter Wuille: Merge #14465: tests: Stop node before removing the notification file...
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116 2018-10-19T05:54:27  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sipa closed pull request #14465: tests: Stop node before removing the notification file (master...test-notification-fix) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14465
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129 2018-10-19T07:19:16  <jonasschnelli> sipa, gmaxwell: ping for final review #14046 (to close/finailize your earlier review)
130 2018-10-19T07:19:19  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14046 | net: Refactor message parsing (CNetMessage), adds flexibility by jonasschnelli · Pull Request #14046 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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134 2018-10-19T07:53:15  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #14517: qt: Fix start with the `-min` option (master...20181019-start-minimized-to-tray) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14517
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140 2018-10-19T08:17:09  <hebasto> meshcollider: gmaxwell: wumpus: MarcoFalke: ryanofsky: #14514 is it worth?
141 2018-10-19T08:17:11  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14514 | Version number for `bitcoin.conf` · Issue #14514 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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161 2018-10-19T10:25:34  <meshcollider> hebasto: in my opinion not really :)
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170 2018-10-19T10:54:51  <wumpus> ooh time to upgrade OpenBSD
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180 2018-10-19T12:14:03  <meshcollider> sipa: still trying to figure out why the P2WSH address is not IsMine, I've confirmed both private keys and the witness script were imported into the wallet successfully, and it works for P2SH-P2WSH, so I'm very confused
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183 2018-10-19T12:17:05  <meshcollider> Its solvable, and both private keys are there, so what more does it need :(
184 2018-10-19T12:17:38  <meshcollider> I'm either missing something really dumb, or there's a bug in the IsMine logic
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186 2018-10-19T12:22:49  <meshcollider> actually I think I know the issue, let me test something
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189 2018-10-19T12:34:24  <meshcollider> sipa: yes, the scriptPubKey also needs to be added to the wallet scripts as well for it to be IsMine, not just the witnessScript so it works now
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199 2018-10-19T13:24:40  <harding> Re: possibly removing the GUI addressbook, I just wanted to note that I use that with my cold wallet setup so that I can import a handful of watch-only pubkeys at a time using the RPC (labeling them as, e.g., "cold-2019-10-19") and then use the GUI addressbook to hand them out as necessary over the next few weeks (relabeling them as I use them to both track payments and prevent address reuse).  I could probably do the same thing
200 2018-10-19T13:24:41  <harding> just as easily using a text file, so I wouldn't mourn the loss of the addressbook, but it is something that's currently a part of what I think is a reasonable workflow.  The Receive tab doesn't currently show imported stuff until you receive payment to it.
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203 2018-10-19T13:27:45  <wumpus> harding: I think that's a reasonable workflow, too
204 2018-10-19T13:29:30  <wumpus> gah openbsd 6.4 upgrade failed here, some error at startup of the kernel, might have to do with the specific qemu config
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208 2018-10-19T14:02:28  <SigmaOC> REPLY isn't just a zsh thing. Works in any shell; it's just the convention (dunno where it started).
209 2018-10-19T14:02:38  <SigmaOC> PuppyNews_, I'm afraid no one from wikipedia can hear you right now, this channel is moderated (+m)
210 2018-10-19T14:02:46  <SigmaOC> unyu: what are dynamicsl systems?
211 2018-10-19T14:02:52  <SigmaOC> better ask ur question.
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214 2018-10-19T14:06:31  <soahccc> actually lets call it a_i
215 2018-10-19T14:06:37  <soahccc> han-solo: etc... ( http://ix.io/1mtz )
216 2018-10-19T14:06:43  <soahccc> malloc/realloc/free is just a mistake while dealing with C++ code
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226 2018-10-19T14:31:56  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] promag opened pull request #14518: rpc: Always throw in getblockstats if -txindex is required (master...2018-10-getblockstats) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14518
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228 2018-10-19T14:32:08  <promag>  gmaxwell: ^
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230 2018-10-19T14:34:54  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] practicalswift closed pull request #14254: build: Add address sanitizer (ASan) Travis job (master...asan) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14254
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233 2018-10-19T14:35:23  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] practicalswift closed pull request #14010: tests: Setup chain parameters (globalChainParams) when performing fuzzing initialization (master...SelectParams-when-fuzzing) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14010
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236 2018-10-19T14:35:56  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] practicalswift closed pull request #13971: Add tests and error handling to DecodeExtPubKey/DecodeExtKey. Add [[nodiscard]].  (master...DecodeExtKey) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13971
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239 2018-10-19T14:36:36  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] practicalswift closed pull request #13969: Make sure all callers of LookupBlockIndex(...) check for nullptr before dereferencing (CBlockIndex*) (master...LookupBlockIndex) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13969
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242 2018-10-19T14:37:21  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] practicalswift closed pull request #13909: validation: Pass chainparams in AcceptToMemoryPoolWorker(...) (master...remove-chainparams-argument-to-AcceptToMemoryPoolWorker) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13909
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251 2018-10-19T14:53:14  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] practicalswift closed pull request #14475: serialize: Document integer width assumptions we are making when calculating compact sizes (master...integer-width-assumptions) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14475
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260 2018-10-19T16:01:31  <promag> imo is ready to merge #14453
261 2018-10-19T16:01:32  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14453 | rpc: Fix wallet unload during walletpassphrase timeout by promag · Pull Request #14453 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
262 2018-10-19T16:03:56  *** rafalcpp has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
263 2018-10-19T16:08:06  <jonasschnelli> promag: is it possible to add a test for 14453?
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266 2018-10-19T16:49:50  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jamesob opened pull request #14519: test: add utility to easily profile node performance with perf (master...2018-10-func-test-profiling) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14519
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269 2018-10-19T17:07:08  <midnightmagic> wumpus: I didn't know you were into OpenBSD. Bitcoin builds work okay on it still? There was a guy who was persistently building on OpenBSD for quite some time.
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272 2018-10-19T17:22:34  <sipa> meshcollider: argh, indeed, i should have known
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275 2018-10-19T17:24:10  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #14521: qt, docs: Fix `bitcoin-qt -version` output formatting (master...20181019-qt-cli-license) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14521
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284 2018-10-19T17:46:24  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jamesob opened pull request #14522: tests: add invalid P2P message tests (master...2018-10-invalid-msgs-test) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14522
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306 2018-10-19T19:01:12  <meshcollider> Wallet meeting?
307 2018-10-19T19:02:21  <sipa> oops, indeed!
308 2018-10-19T19:03:13  <gmaxwell> Hi.
309 2018-10-19T19:04:03  <gmaxwell> sipa: start meeting?
310 2018-10-19T19:04:24  *** cold_wallet has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
311 2018-10-19T19:04:56  <sipa> #startmeeting
312 2018-10-19T19:04:56  <lightningbot> Meeting started Fri Oct 19 19:04:56 2018 UTC.  The chair is sipa. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
313 2018-10-19T19:04:56  <lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
314 2018-10-19T19:05:00  *** paper_wallet has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
315 2018-10-19T19:05:14  <sipa> welcome to the first bitcoin core wallet meeting!
316 2018-10-19T19:05:30  <meshcollider> \o/
317 2018-10-19T19:05:53  *** nestorOfWallets has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
318 2018-10-19T19:05:57  <sipa> i think it would be good to start with listing what people are working on
319 2018-10-19T19:06:44  *** hardware_wallet has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
320 2018-10-19T19:07:39  <gmaxwell> I am working on nothing wallet related. (there, now everyone doesn't have to worry, since you can't be doing worse than nothing)
321 2018-10-19T19:08:16  <meshcollider> I've been working on getting importmulti working with all the segwit address types and everything recently, and trying to get through  most of sipa's descriptor PRs for review :)
322 2018-10-19T19:08:29  <gwillen> oh hm, I am glad I happened to see this but I am interested in how one finds out about these meetings and their topics :-)
323 2018-10-19T19:08:46  <sipa> gwillen: discussed yesterday in the bitcoin core meeting :)
324 2018-10-19T19:08:58  <sipa> i'm working on a number of smaller descriptor related improvements, before digging into fully importing descriptors into the wallet
325 2018-10-19T19:09:52  <meshcollider> Should we ping the list of Devs from the main meeting in case anyone who wanted to be here forgot
326 2018-10-19T19:09:59  *** wallet_dat has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
327 2018-10-19T19:10:04  <sipa> meshcollider: sgtm
328 2018-10-19T19:11:00  <meshcollider> #bitcoin-core-dev Wallet meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr btcdrak sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag provoostenator
329 2018-10-19T19:11:47  <jonasschnelli> hi
330 2018-10-19T19:12:21  <kanzure> hi.
331 2018-10-19T19:12:49  <gwillen> Wallet-wise: I am still working on the offline signing usecase, modeled after the flow armory uses with gui interfaces for create-sign-broadcast.
332 2018-10-19T19:12:54  <kanzure> gwillen: also it was discussed in tokyo. you were there.
333 2018-10-19T19:13:03  <gwillen> kanzure: like I remember things people say.
334 2018-10-19T19:13:14  <luke-jr> lol
335 2018-10-19T19:13:14  <jamesob> anyone know of an easy way to clear the sig/script caches of a running bitcoind process?
336 2018-10-19T19:13:22  <achow101> hi
337 2018-10-19T19:13:30  <sipa> jamesob: i'm not sure it's possible
338 2018-10-19T19:13:36  <jamesob> oops! sorry to interrupt the meeting :)
339 2018-10-19T19:13:36  <sipa> jamesob: but meeting now :)
340 2018-10-19T19:13:43  <luke-jr> btw, not wallet related, but: my node stats are b0rked for a bit :x
341 2018-10-19T19:13:44  <sipa> yay, we have some people
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343 2018-10-19T19:14:19  <kanzure> are descriptors going to be renamed (or descript?)
344 2018-10-19T19:14:23  <luke-jr> sorry, gtg
345 2018-10-19T19:14:39  <meshcollider> kanzure: why would they be renamed?
346 2018-10-19T19:14:45  <sipa> kanzure: we've sort of settled on the name miniscript instead of descript; descriptors are descriptors :)
347 2018-10-19T19:15:01  <achow101> meshcollider: because it's confusing
348 2018-10-19T19:15:02  <sipa> (they're much less related to eachother than the name seemed to imply anyway)
349 2018-10-19T19:15:04  <kanzure> miniscript because it's yer subset of script. alright.
350 2018-10-19T19:15:09  *** reallll has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
351 2018-10-19T19:15:20  <kanzure> i would have also accepted sipascript
352 2018-10-19T19:15:32  <meshcollider> achow101: descriptors is a good name? Only "descript" might have been a little ;)
353 2018-10-19T19:16:18  <kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/bitcoin-core-dev-tech/2018-10-08-script-descriptors/
354 2018-10-19T19:16:30  <sipa> so i think my most important blocker is #14150
355 2018-10-19T19:16:33  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14150 | Add key origin support to descriptors by sipa · Pull Request #14150 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
356 2018-10-19T19:16:49  <achow101> so what steps do we need to do to get the wallet to be descriptor based?
357 2018-10-19T19:17:25  <gwillen> kanzure: I have also been pushing for "output descriptors" rather than "script descriptors" given the choice of both, the latter being a bit of a tongue twister :-)
358 2018-10-19T19:17:46  <sipa> after that a number of things become possible, including #14477, the ability to add origin info to scantxoutset (which would solve #14503), and it would also allow writing a descriptor/utxoset based PSBT updater
359 2018-10-19T19:17:49  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14477 | Add ability to convert solvability info to descriptor by sipa · Pull Request #14477 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
360 2018-10-19T19:17:50  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14503 | scantxoutset does not identify UTXO origins · Issue #14503 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
361 2018-10-19T19:17:55  <achow101> gwillen: output script descriptors ;p
362 2018-10-19T19:17:58  <sipa> achow101: yeah, that's the big question :)
363 2018-10-19T19:18:24  <sipa> i think the first step is abstracting out IsMine
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365 2018-10-19T19:18:43  <gmaxwell> scanutxoset based psbt updater would be a major win.
366 2018-10-19T19:18:44  <kanzure> need to keep old ismine things?
367 2018-10-19T19:19:15  <sipa> kanzure: i would prefer that, and i also don't think it's that much extra work
368 2018-10-19T19:19:30  <sipa> IsMine is really simple to add things too - just OR the result
369 2018-10-19T19:19:30  <meshcollider> Long term, is making the wallet descriptor-based enough to solve all the existing concerns with same keys being used for different address types and which keys we treat as IsMine, etc?
370 2018-10-19T19:19:38  <sipa> meshcollider: yup
371 2018-10-19T19:21:26  <achow101> sipa: isn't IsMine already separated from the wallet?
372 2018-10-19T19:21:37  <sipa> so one way of seeing it i think is that a wallet will consist of a number of records, each of which has one descriptor plus some metadata (birthdate, change or not, explored how far, gap limit, ...), and one record is designated "here is where you draw payment addresses from" and "here is where you draw change from"
373 2018-10-19T19:22:27  <sipa> and then there can be - for now - a 'legacy' record that corresponds to the behaviour of the existing keypool/mapkeys/mapwatchonly/mapscripts
374 2018-10-19T19:23:08  <sipa> achow101: so the goal would be that there can be multiple implementations of the ismine logic, and one (the legacy one) needs to encapsulate the keypool logic... which is a nontrivial change
375 2018-10-19T19:23:45  <sipa> right now IsMine is just something that operates based on a KeyStore, and that's not enough
376 2018-10-19T19:23:57  <meshcollider> For the payment and change addresses sources, they would just be ranged descriptors too right?
377 2018-10-19T19:24:10  <sipa> yup
378 2018-10-19T19:24:45  <sipa> another missing piece is an "evaluation cache" for descriptors, which would e.g. store pubkeys for hd keys which have hardened steps in them
379 2018-10-19T19:25:36  <meshcollider> Store pubkeys for solvabilty while the wallet is locked, or?
380 2018-10-19T19:25:57  <sipa> meshcollider: well, and to compute the scriptPubKeys to watch for
381 2018-10-19T19:26:18  *** WalletIncmpatBdb has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
382 2018-10-19T19:26:25  <sipa> for efficiency maybe it shoud store all pubkeys involved in descriptors, even the ones from unhardened paths
383 2018-10-19T19:26:33  <sipa> or we'd need to rederive them at startup
384 2018-10-19T19:27:50  <sipa> probably the first step is creating an interface for IsMine; just like SigningProvider is an interface for solving/signing
385 2018-10-19T19:28:13  <sipa> initially the wallet itself can implement that, by calling the old IsMine code, but that code can then be moved into one instance of that logic
386 2018-10-19T19:28:37  <sipa> after that, it should be easy to create another descriptor based implementation
387 2018-10-19T19:29:18  <sipa> </monologue>
388 2018-10-19T19:29:29  <sipa> other topics?
389 2018-10-19T19:31:07  <meshcollider> Upgrade wise, descriptor based wallets aren't backwards compatible with old versions, or we are going to allow some more magic not-touching-the-wallet derivation of descriptors at startup every time?
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391 2018-10-19T19:31:29  <sipa> yeah, that's a different question; i think there are a number of ways
392 2018-10-19T19:31:51  <sipa> one is to keep them completely separate, and old wallet remains compatible with old versions as long as you don't import anything descriptor based
393 2018-10-19T19:32:49  <sipa> another is to convert the existing stuff to descriptors at startup every time - which would allow removing the existing IsMine logic from the runtime, but not gain us much otherwise (and the conversion is pretty complicated)
394 2018-10-19T19:33:19  <achow101> it also wouldn't work for encrypted wallets
395 2018-10-19T19:33:22  <sipa> and i guess another is to just have 2 types of wallets, and you need an explicit conversion between them
396 2018-10-19T19:33:42  <sipa> achow101: i think it would
397 2018-10-19T19:33:53  <sipa> we know the xpub we derived keys from, no?
398 2018-10-19T19:33:58  <achow101> no
399 2018-10-19T19:34:24  <achow101> xpub and xprv are derived from the seed on the for whenever they are needed
400 2018-10-19T19:34:24  <sipa> no?
401 2018-10-19T19:34:30  <sipa> ah
402 2018-10-19T19:34:59  <achow101> alao hardened derivation, so no xpub
403 2018-10-19T19:35:17  <sipa> that's ok
404 2018-10-19T19:35:24  <sipa> but yeah
405 2018-10-19T19:35:41  <sipa> i think it's actually best to at least initially have the two live side by side
406 2018-10-19T19:36:13  <meshcollider> Can we deprecate the old version and in a future release only accept wallets if they've been upgraded?
407 2018-10-19T19:36:35  *** adiabat has quit IRC
408 2018-10-19T19:36:52  <sipa> perhaps
409 2018-10-19T19:37:09  <achow101> I'm afraid that if we have to keep the old one around that it will never go away because people don't upgrade
410 2018-10-19T19:37:29  <meshcollider> That's what I mean
411 2018-10-19T19:37:47  <sipa> i think a bigger question is what to do with things like addmultisigaddress etc
412 2018-10-19T19:38:20  <achow101> can't it construct a descriptor based on what was given?
413 2018-10-19T19:38:47  <meshcollider> Isn't that ok to just make a new multisig descriptor record with the public keys of whatever was specified?
414 2018-10-19T19:38:49  <gmaxwell> that was my thought
415 2018-10-19T19:39:05  <sipa> achow101: yeah, with slightly different (but far more reasonable, actuallly) semantics
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417 2018-10-19T19:39:43  <sipa> meshcollider: same with importmulti, actually
418 2018-10-19T19:39:54  <sipa> anything specified there can be converted to a descriptor
419 2018-10-19T19:40:07  <andytoshi> meshcollider: people today show up with 2012 wallets on #bitcoin, and it's a pretty impressive show of backward-compatibility that i can always say "just import it into the latest core"
420 2018-10-19T19:40:20  <andytoshi> even if it's got e.g. p2pk outputs
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422 2018-10-19T19:41:50  <booyah> andytoshi: yeap, I think it's safe to assume people will expect that basically forever. Wallets in some deep storate boxes, inherited, burried in backyard
423 2018-10-19T19:41:59  <meshcollider> andytoshi: you could still import it, but it would upgrade it for you I think
424 2018-10-19T19:42:19  <meshcollider> So you just can't import it and then go back and use it on the 2012 software
425 2018-10-19T19:43:21  <sipa> i think that the burden of maintaining compatibility with the old wallet format actually won't be too hard, as due to the necessary refactoring for descriptors in the first place, it will become pretty standalone and not entangled with everything else
426 2018-10-19T19:43:46  <sipa> and i shouldn't say "old format", it's just adding some new fields
427 2018-10-19T19:44:31  <jonasschnelli> I still sometimes have the feeling we should clone the wallet code (make it run with the existing wallet code) and remove everything that is legacy,.. don't promise backward comp. for 1-2 yrs.
428 2018-10-19T19:44:50  <jonasschnelli> All the fancy stuff could go there...
429 2018-10-19T19:44:59  <jonasschnelli> API can break during that 1-2yr period
430 2018-10-19T19:45:04  <sipa> jonasschnelli: maybe, but i think that's not the right granularity
431 2018-10-19T19:45:17  <sipa> you'd be duplicating a lot of things that are perfectly compatible
432 2018-10-19T19:45:21  <sipa> like coin selection
433 2018-10-19T19:45:23  <jonasschnelli> We still can "backport" to the stable wallet
434 2018-10-19T19:45:33  <jonasschnelli> You can factor out the coin selection
435 2018-10-19T19:45:38  <sipa> exactly.
436 2018-10-19T19:45:40  <jonasschnelli> But I agree, some parts would. be duplicated
437 2018-10-19T19:45:44  <sipa> just like you can factor out the ismine logic.
438 2018-10-19T19:45:50  <sipa> :)
439 2018-10-19T19:46:00  <gmaxwell> I don't think we get enough testing/review for one wallet, having two doesn't sound better. :) if it were narrowed down to a pretty small thing, then sure.
440 2018-10-19T19:46:38  <gmaxwell> Being able to _import_ old wallets should always be relatively straight forward though, so it may make sense to not support old wallets except being able to import them at some point.
441 2018-10-19T19:46:47  <sipa> yeah, agree
442 2018-10-19T19:46:56  <jonasschnelli> I think we test less if we go with the two-wallets approach since backward compatibility and the edge-cases that come up with it consumes a major part of the review and fix time
443 2018-10-19T19:47:32  <sipa> i feel that "meh just create a new wallet" is a knee jerk response when facing the complexity of the existing system
444 2018-10-19T19:47:34  <jonasschnelli> At some point in time, you have to abandon old wallets (maybe thats not within the next 10 yrs)
445 2018-10-19T19:47:43  <sipa> it's always appealing to rewrite things you don't understand
446 2018-10-19T19:47:50  <sipa> but that doesn't make it the right choice
447 2018-10-19T19:48:03  <jonasschnelli> Yes. Maybe.
448 2018-10-19T19:48:06  <gmaxwell> And usually a bad idea, since the complexity was almost always there for a reason. :)
449 2018-10-19T19:48:29  <sipa> it is certainly true that _some_ of the complexity can be dropped if we don't need backward compatibility
450 2018-10-19T19:48:42  <sipa> but identifying that is perhaps less work than making a new implementation actually production ready
451 2018-10-19T19:48:46  <jonasschnelli> I don't think its about complexity... more about progress we can't make otherwise. And dragging around legacy stuff like the account system.
452 2018-10-19T19:49:18  <sipa> i think we can make progress fine
453 2018-10-19T19:49:38  <jonasschnelli> Yes. That indeed true.
454 2018-10-19T19:50:04  <sipa> especially with a number of people pulling in the same direction - which is something that hopefully these meetings contribute to
455 2018-10-19T19:50:13  <jonasschnelli> As said, somethimes I think it would be worth do the 2nd wallet... but you guys always convince me the single-wallet approach is more future proof
456 2018-10-19T19:50:54  <meshcollider> Is #8369 in any way helpful to this discussion
457 2018-10-19T19:50:56  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/8369 | [FOR LATER USE][WIP][Wallet] add support for a flexible "set of features" by jonasschnelli · Pull Request #8369 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
458 2018-10-19T19:51:14  <jonasschnelli> meshcollider: oh. I think we implemented that in a way,.. not?
459 2018-10-19T19:51:27  <jonasschnelli> With the disableprivatekey function
460 2018-10-19T19:51:55  <jonasschnelli> The disableprivatekey function introduced a 64bit bitmap
461 2018-10-19T19:52:18  <sipa> jonasschnelli: very old but relevant blog post: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-never-do-part-i/
462 2018-10-19T19:52:50  <jonasschnelli> Oh. I smell that this is a good read. Thanks sipa
463 2018-10-19T19:53:45  <jonasschnelli> meshcollider: with that 64bit features flag bitmap, the upper 32 are mandatory (wallet needs those features) where the lower32 bits are optional.
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465 2018-10-19T19:54:26  <sipa> jonasschnelli: i'm in favor of something like that, though we shouldn't overuse it as it may lead to an explosion of combinations to test
466 2018-10-19T19:54:26  <jonasschnelli> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/9662/commits/9995a602a639b64a749545b7c3bafbf67f97324f
467 2018-10-19T19:54:56  <sipa> (which is less of a concern when when the features don't interact, and another argument for abstracting out things, so that it becomes clear they can't interact)
468 2018-10-19T19:56:44  <sipa> oh, i didn't realize the disableprivatekey introduced that already
469 2018-10-19T19:56:50  <meshcollider> A descriptor wallet could just be a mandatory flag then right
470 2018-10-19T19:56:56  <jonasschnelli> Yes. I smuggled it in
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472 2018-10-19T19:57:12  <sipa> meshcollider: right
473 2018-10-19T19:57:12  <jonasschnelli> Things like disableprivatekeys is optional and needs a such facility
474 2018-10-19T19:57:24  *** timothy has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
475 2018-10-19T19:59:00  <sipa> i guess that's it?
476 2018-10-19T19:59:05  <meshcollider> Alright this has been a good meeting IMO, last couple minutes anything else?
477 2018-10-19T19:59:23  <meshcollider> Maybe it's just been good because I've been asking lots of questions lol
478 2018-10-19T19:59:25  <jonasschnelli> We should use the meetingbot I guess?
479 2018-10-19T19:59:25  <jonasschnelli> (next time)
480 2018-10-19T19:59:38  *** satwo has quit IRC
481 2018-10-19T19:59:40  <meshcollider> Well, it's running
482 2018-10-19T19:59:50  <jonasschnelli> Oh. We did.
483 2018-10-19T19:59:50  <meshcollider> Just no explicit actions or topics
484 2018-10-19T19:59:58  <jonasschnelli> I see. Sure.
485 2018-10-19T20:00:03  <sipa> #endmeeting
486 2018-10-19T20:00:03  <lightningbot> Meeting ended Fri Oct 19 20:00:03 2018 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
487 2018-10-19T20:00:03  <lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2018/bitcoin-core-dev.2018-10-19-19.04.html
488 2018-10-19T20:00:03  <lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2018/bitcoin-core-dev.2018-10-19-19.04.txt
489 2018-10-19T20:00:03  <lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2018/bitcoin-core-dev.2018-10-19-19.04.log.html
490 2018-10-19T20:00:04  <nestorOfWallets> thanks o/
491 2018-10-19T20:00:09  <sipa> thanks all!
492 2018-10-19T20:00:17  <MtgoxColdWallet> see you in future
493 2018-10-19T20:00:20  <meshcollider> Thank you :)
494 2018-10-19T20:00:23  <paper_wallet> bb
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503 2018-10-19T20:02:11  <sipa> booyah: lol
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526 2018-10-19T21:41:33  <jarthur> jnewbery wumpus any known issues with the new wallet and walletdir behaviors in 0.17? Someone in #bitcoin is saying the backwards compatibility with prior behavior mentioned in release notes isn't working for them.
527 2018-10-19T21:48:38  <sipa> details?
528 2018-10-19T21:48:52  <sipa> i'll join
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530 2018-10-19T21:51:27  <jarthur> Thanks, sipa
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552 2018-10-19T23:57:21  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] kristapsk opened pull request #14524: Trivial: fix typo (master...typos) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14524
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