1 2018-10-26T00:13:18  <moneyball> gmaxwell on it
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 17 2018-10-26T01:29:14  <sipa> MarcoFalke: i find it mildly annoying that the "this pull request conflicts with" messages cause those referenced PRs to be marked as recently updated
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 20 2018-10-26T01:41:16  <wumpus> it would be great if github had a way for bots to bypass those things
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 22 2018-10-26T01:41:56  <wumpus> add information to a PR but not spawn a notification or update metadata like taht
 23 2018-10-26T01:42:16  <gmaxwell> I've also been annoyed by that, fwiw.
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 27 2018-10-26T01:49:40  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #14579: [0.17] travis: Pin flake8 version to 3.5.0 (0.17...fix-the-linters) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14579
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 29 2018-10-26T01:49:58  <fanquake> wumpus If #14579 fixes the linters, could you merge it this morning?
 30 2018-10-26T01:49:59  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14579 | [0.17] travis: Pin flake8 version to 3.5.0 by fanquake · Pull Request #14579 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
 31 2018-10-26T01:50:09  <fanquake> Would be good to get the tests back for 0.17
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 33 2018-10-26T01:50:54  <wumpus> fanquake: sure
 34 2018-10-26T01:51:55  <wumpus> if that doesn't fix the linters we should probably just disable them on the 0.17 branch
 35 2018-10-26T01:52:34  <fanquake> Looks like they are green now https://travis-ci.org/bitcoin/bitcoin/jobs/446468018
 36 2018-10-26T01:52:36  <fanquake> Shouldn
 37 2018-10-26T01:52:37  <wumpus> or at least that specific one
 38 2018-10-26T01:52:45  <fanquake> *Shouldn't have to wait for the other tests.
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 42 2018-10-26T02:07:56  <MarcoFalke> sipa, the only thing I could do to solve this is "proxy" or "domainsquat" all github urls through the drahtbot domain
 43 2018-10-26T02:08:04  <MarcoFalke> but that seems eeeeh
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 45 2018-10-26T02:10:12  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 new commits to 0.17: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/eb2cc84a31fb...f13041f17b08
 46 2018-10-26T02:10:12  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/0.17 f9fc08c fanquake: travis: Pin flake8 version to 3.5.0
 47 2018-10-26T02:10:13  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/0.17 f13041f MarcoFalke: Merge #14579: [0.17] travis: Pin flake8 version to 3.5.0...
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 49 2018-10-26T02:14:29  <fanquake> MarcoFalke Cheers
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 52 2018-10-26T02:44:43  <jarthur> Was the new version of flake8 throwing new linting warnings?
 53 2018-10-26T02:47:18  <fanquake> jarthur In flake8 3.6.0 the pyflakes dependency was increased to > 2.0.0, which seemed to break a lot of the linting
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 57 2018-10-26T03:38:10  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sunshineYPH opened pull request #14581: 2018/08/spv rpc (master...2018/08/spv-rpc) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14581
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 60 2018-10-26T03:43:31  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #14581: 2018/08/spv rpc (master...2018/08/spv-rpc) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14581
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 65 2018-10-26T04:08:11  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #12656: Add scripts for doing gitian builds on any platform using VirtualBox + Vagrant + Packer (master...vagrant) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12656
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 67 2018-10-26T04:10:51  <provoostenator> jonasschnelli: ensuring that at least one person actually tests Gitian (QT) build, and then leaving "tACK bitcoind/QT on macOS/Windows/[favorite Linux distro]" seems like a good idea.
 68 2018-10-26T04:17:04  <provoostenator> In addition each release could have one Github issue where we post standard testing instructions ("go to bitcoincore.org, get rc..., etc) and let us know if it worked. It would be a noisy thread, but just one.
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 74 2018-10-26T05:39:44  <Sparklefairy22> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
 75 2018-10-26T05:39:44  <Sparklefairy22> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan kloeri Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
 76 2018-10-26T05:39:45  <Sparklefairy22> Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate
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128 2018-10-26T06:45:20  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] kallewoof opened pull request #14582: wallet: try -avoidpartialspends mode and use its result if fees do not change (master...181026-try-avoidpartialspends) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14582
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133 2018-10-26T07:15:38  <promag> Could backport #12842 to 0.17?
134 2018-10-26T07:15:40  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/12842 | Prevent concurrent savemempool by promag · Pull Request #12842 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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146 2018-10-26T08:46:44  <fenrus020> With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/
147 2018-10-26T08:46:47  <fenrus020> I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan kloeri Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
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153 2018-10-26T08:55:01  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] merland opened pull request #14583: docs: Textual improvements in build docs (master...proof-read-build-docs) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14583
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169 2018-10-26T09:55:11  <promag> I think #14518 is ready and could be backport
170 2018-10-26T09:55:13  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14518 | rpc: Always throw in getblockstats if -txindex is required by promag · Pull Request #14518 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
171 2018-10-26T09:56:03  <wumpus> let's first get out of the door
172 2018-10-26T09:56:03  <promag> I also think #14561 is mergeable
173 2018-10-26T09:56:04  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14561 | Remove fs::relative call and fix listwalletdir tests by promag · Pull Request #14561 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
174 2018-10-26T09:56:20  <promag> wumpus: +1 just letting you know
175 2018-10-26T09:57:48  <wumpus> yes, thank you
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180 2018-10-26T10:02:07  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #14576: Release (0.17...2018_10_release_0.17.0.1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14576
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208 2018-10-26T11:07:45  <wumpus>  * [new tag]                                                                           v0.17.0.1 -> v0.17.0.1
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213 2018-10-26T11:21:48  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/754a00d55f30...9d4541508b98
214 2018-10-26T11:21:48  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 3be209d João Barbosa: rpc: Always throw in getblockstats if -txindex is required...
215 2018-10-26T11:21:49  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 9d45415 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #14518: rpc: Always throw in getblockstats if -txindex is required...
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218 2018-10-26T11:23:03  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #14518: rpc: Always throw in getblockstats if -txindex is required (master...2018-10-getblockstats) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14518
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221 2018-10-26T11:26:09  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/9d4541508b98...d50c996a147d
222 2018-10-26T11:26:09  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master ed2e183 João Barbosa: Remove fs::relative call and fix listwalletdir tests...
223 2018-10-26T11:26:10  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master d50c996 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #14561: Remove fs::relative call and fix listwalletdir tests...
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227 2018-10-26T11:27:22  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #14561: Remove fs::relative call and fix listwalletdir tests (master...2018-10-fix-listwalletdir) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14561
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245 2018-10-26T11:47:53  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/d50c996a147d...ae85c8d28bee
246 2018-10-26T11:47:53  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fbaccbf Chun Kuan Lee: build: Fix Qt link order for Windows build
247 2018-10-26T11:47:54  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master ae85c8d MarcoFalke: Merge #14568: build: Fix Qt link order for Windows build...
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253 2018-10-26T11:49:07  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #14568: build: Fix Qt link order for Windows build (master...win-qt-fix) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14568
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256 2018-10-26T11:52:51  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/ae85c8d28bee...f4e4ea1ceecf
257 2018-10-26T11:52:51  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 3387bb0 Chun Kuan Lee: travis: avoid timeout without saving caches, also enable all qt
258 2018-10-26T11:52:51  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master f4e4ea1 MarcoFalke: Merge #13515: travis: Enable qt for all jobs...
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261 2018-10-26T11:53:27  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #13515: travis: Enable qt for all jobs (master...travis_qt) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13515
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267 2018-10-26T12:16:31  <harding> For, a few questions related to what changes I might need to make to BitcoinCore.org for it: (1) is only the MacOS binary going to be added to /bin/bitcoin-core- or will there be .0.1 versions for all platforms?  (2) Are there going to be release notes for it?  (3) Do we want a blog post about it on the home page?
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277 2018-10-26T12:23:53  <wumpus> harding: (1) there will be a version for all platforms, I think that's most convenient as that allows following the normal release process. I also think that's what we did before in these cases?
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279 2018-10-26T12:25:37  <wumpus> harding: (2) the release notes are here, it's really short: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/0.17/doc/release-notes.md
280 2018-10-26T12:26:13  <wumpus> harding: (3) I think a blog post is not worth doing, this is just a minor fixup that affects a small part of users it seems
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283 2018-10-26T12:29:40  <harding> wumpus: that's what I remember being done for all the other 0.*.*.1 releases, and it's easiest for the website if there are release notes because, as you say, it's the same release process.  It is possible (and pretty easy) to have binaries split across two directories on both BitcoinCore.org and Bitcoin.org as we both use the same mechanism to allow for easy changes in the filenames across releases, so let me know if you ever do
284 2018-10-26T12:29:40  <harding> need to do a partial release.
285 2018-10-26T12:29:57  <harding> wumpus: thanks!  That's everything I needed to know.  I'll get a PR up.
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288 2018-10-26T12:32:52  <wumpus> harding: I also remember that, to not confuse users, we've once used the 0.x.y release notes for 0.x.y.1, and just added the mention of the fix
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290 2018-10-26T12:33:09  <wumpus> otherwise it's like "wow this is supposed to be a major release but it changes nothing"
291 2018-10-26T12:33:41  <wumpus> might be something for the web site at least; but good to know the binary situation works for you, will go ahead with that then
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293 2018-10-26T12:37:55  <harding> wumpus: if users being confused is a concern and it's ok with everyone, I can just add a sentence on the website version of the release notes that says, "Otherwise this software is identical to [0.17.0](/link/to/0.17.0/release/notes)".
294 2018-10-26T12:38:27  <wumpus> harding: yes, that would help I think!
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303 2018-10-26T12:57:06  <promag>  jonasschnelli: please take a look at #14573
304 2018-10-26T12:57:08  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14573 | qt: Add Wallet and Window menus by promag · Pull Request #14573 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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306 2018-10-26T13:01:05  <promag> BTW in #14573 the address book dialogs are moved as discussed in last week meeting
307 2018-10-26T13:01:07  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14573 | qt: Add Wallet and Window menus by promag · Pull Request #14573 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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318 2018-10-26T13:25:14  <jonasschnelli> promag: will do
319 2018-10-26T13:25:33  <promag> thanks, it's pretty small
320 2018-10-26T13:30:24  <promag> scantxoutset should be scanutxoset?
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338 2018-10-26T14:07:54  <harding> promag: I assume it's named to correspond to gettxoutsetinfo.
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341 2018-10-26T14:10:24  <promag> harding: makes sense
342 2018-10-26T14:10:40  <promag> gettxoutsetinfo should be getutxosetinfo? :P
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348 2018-10-26T14:22:27  <instagibbs> promag, bitcoind doesn't track stxo so no info to give ;P
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350 2018-10-26T14:22:43  <instagibbs> I do find that the most impossible rpc command to remember/type out
351 2018-10-26T14:23:38  <andytoshi> wumpus: the rust-bitcoinrpc crate has a huge dep tree that has all sorts of borderline-unstable stuff written by "webscale" people. i would not trust it
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353 2018-10-26T14:24:02  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] ken2812221 closed pull request #13827: [WIP] depends: Add native_nsis to support unicode (master...depends-nsis) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/13827
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355 2018-10-26T14:24:15  <andytoshi> rust-jsonrpc is better but it's still not where i want it to be. afaik there is no HTTP client library for rust that doesn't have a bad dependency story. we would need to write our own to do bitcoin-cli in rust.
356 2018-10-26T14:25:14  <andytoshi> OTOH, if somebody were to do that work it'd be generally very useful
357 2018-10-26T14:26:41  <wumpus> andytoshi: interesting—yes such a outgrowth of dependencies shouldn't be necessary for a little tool like that
358 2018-10-26T14:26:59  <wumpus> it's not bad to have deps, but…I certainly get your point
359 2018-10-26T14:28:25  <wumpus> promag: I also *always* by definition, forget the name of that command
360 2018-10-26T14:29:25  <andytoshi> wumpus: at blockstream we have functionary software written in rust, and the HTTP stuff is literally 50% of our dep tree (and has caused 100% of our dependency-related trouble). if we were using the latest version of hyper the tree size would double again, so it'd be 75% of our dep tree. and it's exactly the kind of stuff that is hard to vet and tends to be written by incautious people
361 2018-10-26T14:29:26  <wumpus> the other long RPC I have no trouble with, like signrawtransaction with wallet, but that utxo statistics command darn how was it called again
362 2018-10-26T14:29:36  <andytoshi> so sure, not bad to have deps, but i think in this case it's a problem
363 2018-10-26T14:31:32  <promag> instagibbs: lol
364 2018-10-26T14:32:23  <wumpus> andytoshi: so 'hyper' is the root of the tree of trouble, so to say?
365 2018-10-26T14:32:51  <andytoshi> yep
366 2018-10-26T14:33:44  <promag> provoostenator: ken2812221: hebasto: please test #14123, ty!
367 2018-10-26T14:33:46  <andytoshi> FWIW you can disable all of its connection management stuff (and with it most of the dep tree) .. but there's no replacement for it, you'd have to write all that yourself, and then you might as well just rewrite the whole thing
368 2018-10-26T14:33:47  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14123 | gui: Add GUIUtil::bringToFront by promag · Pull Request #14123 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
369 2018-10-26T14:33:54  <wumpus> I might have a look at it :)
370 2018-10-26T14:34:31  <wumpus> it's absolutely overkill for a RPC client, I was happy not to need hyper for my c-lightning RPC wrapper
371 2018-10-26T14:34:38  <hebasto> promag: doing now :)
372 2018-10-26T14:34:45  <andytoshi> wumpus: awesome :) i've been thinking about writing a simple single-threaded "template-based HTTP" client for a while, and slowly add things to it as needed. i think that could be done with almost no deps and have a very small code footprint
373 2018-10-26T14:34:51  <andytoshi> but i haven't had the time
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381 2018-10-26T15:09:12  <e4xit> why was BIP 159 allocated service bit 10 rather than then next freely available bit (5)? Were those bits previously allocated but not used, or something else?
382 2018-10-26T15:09:52  <luke-jr> service bits aren't really allocated (perhaps they should be?), just claimed
383 2018-10-26T15:10:58  <e4xit> ok, so would be simply a decision made by jonasschnelli then
384 2018-10-26T15:11:17  <luke-jr> there was probably discussion here, but at the end of the day, yes
385 2018-10-26T15:11:36  <e4xit> thanks
386 2018-10-26T15:15:46  <luke-jr> note that some high bits are typically perceived as temporary/testing/adhoc usage
387 2018-10-26T15:15:50  <luke-jr> eg, the full RBF bit
388 2018-10-26T15:17:42  <jonasschnelli> I used bit 10 because other non bitcoin (core) stuff did use the below ones.
389 2018-10-26T15:22:43  <e4xit> ok thanks jonas. I thought that was likely the case but I couldn't find much (core) documentation detailing what might be using them, which makes sense now...
390 2018-10-26T15:23:11  <luke-jr> I only have 0-4,10,26 documented (or visible on the network in any notable count)
391 2018-10-26T15:25:12  <luke-jr> BIP 158 seems to use bit 6
392 2018-10-26T15:27:29  <luke-jr> bit 5 was allocated in BIP 149, but obviously n/a
393 2018-10-26T15:27:42  * luke-jr updates https://luke.dashjr.org/programs/bitcoin/files/charts/services.html for bit 6
394 2018-10-26T15:30:00  <luke-jr> I wonder when we should start retiring the segwit service bit
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398 2018-10-26T15:41:57  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #14534: Enable flake8 rule E225 which checks for missing whitespace around op… (master...flake8-fix-E225) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14534
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401 2018-10-26T15:50:56  <e4xit> thank luke-jr
402 2018-10-26T15:51:06  <e4xit> *thanks
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406 2018-10-26T15:57:05  <wumpus> right, you can just try to claim your favourite bit in your BIP
407 2018-10-26T15:57:36  <wumpus> you don't need to explain why you picked it
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409 2018-10-26T15:58:17  <wumpus> although yes what luke-jr says, the higher bit are considered special purpose for temporary or experimental things, I think that's written in a BIP somewhere
410 2018-10-26T15:59:44  <wumpus> luke-jr: I think retiring that bit needs a BIP in itself
411 2018-10-26T16:00:06  <wumpus> (e.g. with your time planning, when to stop setting and/or interpreting it, as other software will need that too)
412 2018-10-26T16:02:09  <wumpus> and there will have to be a period before it can be reused for other things
413 2018-10-26T16:02:22  <luke-jr> nah, software can just decide when it's no longer worth filtering for (and instead handling the occasional "bad" peer), and then software can decide when it's no longer useful to set
414 2018-10-26T16:02:28  <luke-jr> doesn't have to be coordinated
415 2018-10-26T16:02:45  <wumpus> well, I think it makes sense to coordinate this
416 2018-10-26T16:03:40  <wumpus> even if at least to get discussion about it, write down what it takes to retire a service bit (it's the first time isn't it?)
417 2018-10-26T16:04:10  <wumpus> also it gives future BIPs that want to use that bit something to refer to, that they can reclaim it
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425 2018-10-26T16:34:55  * esotericnonsense scrolls up. lol.
426 2018-10-26T16:35:12  <esotericnonsense> my project for learning some rust, was http. this explains why I am chasing my tail.
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430 2018-10-26T17:00:37  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] practicalswift opened pull request #14585: Don't rely on locale dependent functions in base_blob<BITS>::SetHex(...) (uint256), DecodeBase58(...), ParseMoney(...) and ParseHex(...) (master...no-locale-surprises-please) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14585
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445 2018-10-26T18:26:34  <gmaxwell> Is there a reason we can't have the wallet sync status _never_ tell people that it is "X years behind" and instead say that it is synced up to date x/y/z? The foo years behind thing seems to frequently cause people to think that it will take years to finish the sync.
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447 2018-10-26T18:42:50  <oshithemoto> Anyone here who coded a bitcoin wallet in VB.NET?
448 2018-10-26T18:44:29  <sipa> oshithemoto: off topic here
449 2018-10-26T18:50:54  <oshithemoto> offtopic? isn´t this the developer channel?
450 2018-10-26T18:51:28  <jarthur> Specifically Bitcoin Core development. #bitcoin-dev or #bitcoin may be better suited.
451 2018-10-26T18:51:45  <oshithemoto> ok thx!
452 2018-10-26T18:53:34  *** shinohai_ is now known as shinohai
453 2018-10-26T18:57:37  <oshithemoto> maybe offtopic but are here ppl from the good old Sub7 Crew?
454 2018-10-26T18:59:41  <sipa> yes, offtopic
455 2018-10-26T19:06:46  <oshithemoto> no one is writting here, just like idling here? gg I am an old developer, i did some decentraliced stuff bevor bitcoin, cordinated ddos attacs and i hope to find some old crew member, it was not sub7 crew but some of the ppl from this crew can help me find my old crew members I think one of them is satoshi nakamoto. his "old" nickname was "oso", he was a hacker and our crew name was #ratpack and he told my about a decen
456 2018-10-26T19:07:26  <sipa> oshithemoto: please go away
457 2018-10-26T19:08:14  <sipa> this channel is about discussing development on the Bitcoin Core software; you're welcome to idle or discuss relevant topics, but those don't include other Bitcoin clients, and certainly not trojan horse software
458 2018-10-26T19:09:41  <oshithemoto> he told me about a new decentraliced system called "the bitnetwork" in 2002, so he was developing it, I search him now for 6 years, maybe someone of here knows him, pls contact me thx
459 2018-10-26T19:09:45  <oshithemoto> that´s it sorry ;)
460 2018-10-26T19:09:51  <sipa> noted.
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481 2018-10-26T20:44:29  <phantomcircuit> gmaxwell, i dont see a reason to change that
482 2018-10-26T20:44:34  <phantomcircuit> it's definitely confusing as is
483 2018-10-26T20:46:31  <gwillen> phantomcircuit: a reason not to change, rather? :-)
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485 2018-10-26T20:51:27  <phantomcircuit> gwillen, yeah
486 2018-10-26T20:51:33  <phantomcircuit> there was a "not" in there
487 2018-10-26T20:51:41  <phantomcircuit> seems it stayed in my head
488 2018-10-26T20:52:29  <gwillen> safest place for it really
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501 2018-10-26T21:34:20  <wumpus> gmaxwell: it used to be like that a long time ago, "X" years behind was apparantly seen as an improvement
502 2018-10-26T21:34:38  <wumpus> gmaxwell: I... don't know, it seems we're circularly revisiting the same ideas over and over
503 2018-10-26T21:35:11  <gmaxwell> Any chance you can refer me to the discussion where "X years behind" was proposed an improvement?
504 2018-10-26T21:35:14  <wumpus> someone claims that something is better UI so that gets implemented, then someone else calls somethinge else again
505 2018-10-26T21:35:24  <wumpus> we're never going to make progress without someone with an actual clue in this
506 2018-10-26T21:35:57  <wumpus> no, I don't know, must be in git history somewhere...
507 2018-10-26T21:36:17  <gmaxwell> I'm not speculating here, there is a continual stream of users who think that it will take years to sync. E.g. example I ran into today: https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/71147/bitcoin-core-delay-in-synching
508 2018-10-26T21:36:50  <gmaxwell> I can go pull some other examples up if you'd like to see them.
509 2018-10-26T21:36:53  <wumpus> I really don't know, I'm sick and tired of this tbh
510 2018-10-26T21:36:59  <gmaxwell> Then quit the project wumpus.
511 2018-10-26T21:37:07  <wumpus> yes
512 2018-10-26T21:38:38  <wumpus> you wouldn't believe how many times the progress display was redesigined, in a way someone found better, but of course, it results in other people complaining
513 2018-10-26T21:39:15  <sipa> whatever we do, people are always going to complain about something
514 2018-10-26T21:39:25  <wumpus> I'm sorry.. I'm having trouble with this
515 2018-10-26T21:39:40  <midnightmagic> And then some of us will complain about people complaining!
516 2018-10-26T21:40:05  <gmaxwell> There isn't anyone even really complaining on this, just a regular stream of confused people.
517 2018-10-26T21:40:17  <gmaxwell> I asked specifically to avoid looping on it.
518 2018-10-26T21:40:21  <wumpus> I try to be helpful, I really try to do what is useful, what are good choices that help people, but it's never okay
519 2018-10-26T21:40:34  <midnightmagic> wumpus: Don't quit. We love you man! You're a longer-term-thinking moderate, which means it's harder for people to find a reason to hate you.
520 2018-10-26T21:41:17  <gmaxwell> No one did anything wrong with this.  It just turns out presenting a long delay to users is fundimentally hard because user easily get anxious and worry that it isn't working.
521 2018-10-26T21:41:32  <wumpus> midnightmagic: believe me, I don't want to!
522 2018-10-26T21:41:35  <sipa> i think the real problem is that syncing is slow :)
523 2018-10-26T21:41:47  <wumpus> midnightmagic: it's just that after years it feels a bit repetitive, that's all
524 2018-10-26T21:41:55  <midnightmagic> (external) people like arguing about shed colours, man, it's only avoidable if nobody engages them.
525 2018-10-26T21:42:22  <sipa> for many people it's a fundamentally inconvenient interface, but we're constrained in how to improve that
526 2018-10-26T21:42:33  <midnightmagic> wumpus: Super repetitive. And I don't even contribute code to the repo..!
527 2018-10-26T21:42:53  <wumpus> I just wish... someone with UI design experience would get involved, and make a good descsion based on human psychology on this, and we'll just stick with that
528 2018-10-26T21:43:04  <sipa> wumpus: that'd be great
529 2018-10-26T21:43:14  <midnightmagic> Those people are all working for games companies.
530 2018-10-26T21:43:15  <wumpus> but that never happens
531 2018-10-26T21:43:27  <wumpus> yep
532 2018-10-26T21:43:37  <sipa> and yeah... please don't quit; but if you need a break...
533 2018-10-26T21:44:28  <midnightmagic> People don't want to get their hands dirty building bitcoin because they worry that if they make a mistake, someone will blame them for millions of $$ lost. And the people who overcome that are philosophically-minded people who jump off that cliff anyway and hope Miles back at the base camp packed their parachute properly. :)
534 2018-10-26T21:44:40  <gmaxwell> wumpus: it doesn't work that way in any case. You can put all the expirence in the world, and sometimes you're going to find that people get confused, so you tweak it a bit. It's not a big deal.  Sometimes it's all fine, and then the language educational materials use changes, and people end up confused and things have to change to respond, etc.
535 2018-10-26T21:45:31  <gwillen> wumpus: FWIW that's not even how it works in commercial software
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537 2018-10-26T21:45:40  <wumpus> but we can't keep doing 'someone complains about this! let's change it again'
538 2018-10-26T21:45:42  <gwillen> over there you get promoted for making big changes pointlessly
539 2018-10-26T21:45:49  <gwillen> so they do it even more frequently
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542 2018-10-26T21:46:13  <gwillen> they are supposed to have UX people, but it's not like the UX people don't also get promoted for making big changes
543 2018-10-26T21:46:24  <sipa> wumpus: just because someone complains doesn't mean it needs to change
544 2018-10-26T21:46:29  <gwillen> *shrugs* I think churn is a fact of life in software
545 2018-10-26T21:46:37  <sipa> but it may be worthwhile to look at why it was changed in the past
546 2018-10-26T21:47:21  <wumpus> midnightmagic: it's painful to overcome, I agree
547 2018-10-26T21:47:37  <gmaxwell> sipa: thats why I was asking instead of just opening a PR, to get context.
548 2018-10-26T21:47:38  <midnightmagic> Yeah, sick people like me on them. I'll change the topic to POWER hardware, and they'll go off and buy a Blackbird and forget they had a complaint at all! :)
549 2018-10-26T21:48:03  <gmaxwell> [I certantly remember this stuff being changed before, not that particular behavior but the opening message]
550 2018-10-26T21:48:40  <midnightmagic> wumpus: You could do the Linus thing and take up extensive and heavy drinking for a couple decades.
551 2018-10-26T21:48:43  <gwillen> look at it this way, we know more now than we did then, so we're more likely to make the right choice now than we were then :-)
552 2018-10-26T21:48:54  <wumpus> gmaxwell: yes... I think at a deeper level it's something like 'people only pay attention to the GUI to complain about something'
553 2018-10-26T21:49:41  <wumpus> midnightmagic: I don't like shouting at people :p
554 2018-10-26T21:49:43  <gmaxwell> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/24cde0b7d1ad014ffca5d0af896bc50b30e5ddcd
555 2018-10-26T21:49:55  <gmaxwell> is where the 'x years behind' language was added.
556 2018-10-26T21:50:13  <midnightmagic> wumpus: hehe I was about to say, just kidding, the fact you haven't means IMO you're ahead of where Linus was.
557 2018-10-26T21:50:17  <wumpus> gmaxwell: it might even be that I didn't even find it a very good idea at the time
558 2018-10-26T21:50:18  <gmaxwell> Prior to that it gave a height behind, with numbers based off peers starting height claims.
559 2018-10-26T21:50:37  <gmaxwell> IIRC we also had some issue with malicious/broken peers at the time giving bogus starting heights.
560 2018-10-26T21:51:35  <gmaxwell> I agree that the blocks based behind is pretty opaque and unhelpful to users, and obviously the old behavior of relying on peers claimed heights is not a good one.
561 2018-10-26T21:52:17  <sipa> it looks like that PR is just introducing a better estimation algorithm, without any reasons for the particular UI chosen
562 2018-10-26T21:52:24  <wumpus> midnightmagic: I guess one thing I am good at is keeping the project together despite all the controversy and hostility from outside
563 2018-10-26T21:53:15  <gmaxwell> What I was thinking of doing was replacing the 'foo behind' language with a 'Synced up to yyyy-mm-dd' or similar, with a rational that it would not be realistically possible to mistake that for a 'how long it will take to sync'  (Omg it's going to take 2018 years to sync! :P )
564 2018-10-26T21:53:21  <wumpus> gmaxwell: oh it moved from blocks behind?
565 2018-10-26T21:53:26  <gmaxwell> wumpus: yes
566 2018-10-26T21:53:31  <wumpus> gmaxwell: I thought it showed a date first, as you proposed
567 2018-10-26T21:53:50  <sipa> gmaxwell: sounds very reasonable to me
568 2018-10-26T21:53:54  <gmaxwell> Not as far as I can tell from the history. There might have been a branch at some point that did?
569 2018-10-26T21:54:30  <wumpus> yes it might have been a proposal then at the time, which didn't make it?
570 2018-10-26T21:54:40  <wumpus> people chose the N days behind
571 2018-10-26T21:55:03  <gmaxwell> most of the PR discussion is about the progress estimation.
572 2018-10-26T21:55:30  <gmaxwell> it originally gave it in days, and before it went in you changed it to use more human-ish units at schildbach's request.
573 2018-10-26T21:55:47  <gmaxwell> But I don't see any discussion of anything but a 'behind'.
574 2018-10-26T21:55:57  <gmaxwell> The prior behavior was N blocks behind.
575 2018-10-26T21:56:09  <wumpus> ok
576 2018-10-26T21:56:56  <gwillen> gmaxwell: if you wanted to include time-in-past, perhaps less confusing would be "synced blocks through $DATE (XX units ago)"
577 2018-10-26T21:57:09  <wumpus> I'm happy if people can agree on something
578 2018-10-26T21:57:10  <gwillen> I imagine that would less tempt people to imagine that it will take XX units to sync.
579 2018-10-26T21:57:20  <wumpus> please don't make this another bikeshedding thing
580 2018-10-26T21:57:22  * sipa forcibly volunteers gwillen to suggest an improvement
581 2018-10-26T21:57:23  <gwillen> but just a bare "through $DATE" obviously presents no possible confusion.
582 2018-10-26T21:58:03  <gwillen> for the record I have no preference and will express no opinion on the final outcome, I only offer an option for cleverer people than me to consider :-)
583 2018-10-26T21:58:10  <gmaxwell> gwillen: I think any AGO is going to trigger the same 'it'll take this long to finish' confusion. Is there an important reason for the ago?
584 2018-10-26T21:58:13  <sipa> i think anything with an actual date will be less confusing
585 2018-10-26T21:58:27  <gwillen> gmaxwell: nope, just avoid making me do mental math :-)
586 2018-10-26T21:58:34  <gmaxwell> I think the date is useful, in the sense of the wallet will show transactions made up until DATE.
587 2018-10-26T21:58:36  <gwillen> but I guess there's no actual reason to _care_ how long ago it was
588 2018-10-26T21:58:47  <gmaxwell> But how is ago useful? it doesn't tell you when it will finish. right
589 2018-10-26T21:58:48  <gwillen> right, date is actually more useful if I want to know "will it include a particular tx"
590 2018-10-26T21:59:08  <gmaxwell> Basically I think people want to know two things: When it will finish, and (dim second) when is it current through.
591 2018-10-26T21:59:10  <wumpus> gwillen: that's a good point
592 2018-10-26T21:59:15  <wumpus> gwillen: it's actually *useful*
593 2018-10-26T21:59:42  <gwillen> *nods*
594 2018-10-26T21:59:58  <gwillen> yeah, on reflection it is mostly _fun and entertaining_ to see how long ago it's synced through
595 2018-10-26T22:00:01  <gwillen> which is maybe not a good reason
596 2018-10-26T22:00:26  <wumpus> we've left fun and entertaining long ago, it's deadly serious now
597 2018-10-26T22:00:29  <gwillen> yeah
598 2018-10-26T22:03:34  <midnightmagic> Everybody likes watching speed meters. "Verifying X utxo/sec, complexity measure Y". And a little running graph. With blinking lights. Where's that guy who was trying to do chain visualization in OpenGL anyway..
599 2018-10-26T22:03:38  * midnightmagic ducks and runs away
600 2018-10-26T22:05:44  <gmaxwell> sipa: I agree with your earlier point that the sync taking a long time is the real issue.
601 2018-10-26T22:06:00  <gwillen> honestly for my own purposes, the most important innovation in progress technology was the "XX percent per second" meter
602 2018-10-26T22:06:06  <gwillen> that's really all I look at now when doing IBD
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604 2018-10-26T22:10:48  <gmaxwell> gwillen: what I think from talking to people they do is dimiss that it's-not-in-sync dialog, then they just see "XX years behind" and at least some portion of them mistake it for an ETA.
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606 2018-10-26T22:11:10  <gwillen> ahhhh, right, that appears in the status bar which is normally covered by the dialog to start
607 2018-10-26T22:11:13  <gwillen> *nods*
608 2018-10-26T22:11:28  <gmaxwell> I dunno what percentage, probably small, but enough that I see a confused user every couple of months.
609 2018-10-26T22:11:33  <wumpus> midnightmagic: hah we've had ideas like that xD it would have been fun at some point in time
610 2018-10-26T22:11:42  <gwillen> so perhaps the status bar should include an _actual_ ETA? if it doesn't already? (I forget what it says and I don't have a client in IBD to check)
611 2018-10-26T22:12:02  <wumpus> midnightmagic: now it's more like making a joke at a funeral I guess
612 2018-10-26T22:12:07  <gwillen> (or percent synced, or whatever the most important thing is from the dialog they just dismissed)
613 2018-10-26T22:12:38  <gmaxwell> I was particularly frustrated today because I encountered yet another one where they got a long reply given them a 10 step procedure to stop using bitcoin core, which never even mentioned they were confused about progress. (certantly not the first time I've seen that happen).
614 2018-10-26T22:12:48  <gwillen> (I just never dismiss the dialog until sync is complete because I don't know how to get it back, or whether you can get it back)
615 2018-10-26T22:13:03  <gmaxwell> gwillen: you click on the 'xx behind' text to get it back.
616 2018-10-26T22:13:12  <gwillen> ahhhh
617 2018-10-26T22:14:03  <wumpus> not even the fancy new progress dialog helped :-(
618 2018-10-26T22:14:21  <gmaxwell> Oh I'm sure it helps.
619 2018-10-26T22:14:32  <wumpus> people were confused about progress, so that overlay was added, but ... it's all the same
620 2018-10-26T22:15:05  <gmaxwell> Though it also could use some improvements, the choice in bold text is weird.  IIRC it was supposted to get fixed before the release but it wasn't.
621 2018-10-26T22:15:09  <wumpus> yess of course they just want to attack bitcoin core
622 2018-10-26T22:15:14  <wumpus> we're the enemy after all
623 2018-10-26T22:15:44  <gmaxwell> and/or just the blind leading the blind
624 2018-10-26T22:16:34  <wumpus> it doesn't matter, whatever your politics, either bitcoin is destroying the world, or well otherwise there's always infighting between implementation
625 2018-10-26T22:16:39  <wumpus> it's good that everyone is so mature about it
626 2018-10-26T22:17:48  <sipa> wumpus: i find the twitter mute button incredibly useful
627 2018-10-26T22:18:03  <gmaxwell> I find not loading twitter useful. :P
628 2018-10-26T22:18:22  <wumpus> yea :/
629 2018-10-26T22:18:48  <gmaxwell> that popup thing is kind of mesmerizing.... click, hide, click, hide.
630 2018-10-26T22:19:30  <wumpus> reddit is so much better
631 2018-10-26T22:20:09  <wumpus> yes I think that's kind of neat !
632 2018-10-26T22:20:41  <gmaxwell> An alternative would be to make the XX behind just show the ETA and a "(click for details)".  Though I'm not sure what it shoudl display when the ETA isn't available.
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637 2018-10-26T22:37:36  <gmaxwell> gwillen: researching user reports, the percent per hour thing also seems to be confusing in non-initial sync.
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639 2018-10-26T22:38:21  <gwillen> interesting
640 2018-10-26T22:38:33  <gwillen> I guess that makes sense, after IBD you're not probably thinking in terms of "percent of entire blockchain downloaded"
641 2018-10-26T22:38:35  <gmaxwell> because it seems to report percentage of the whole chain always.
642 2018-10-26T22:38:43  <gwillen> well, it's not clear what else it would report
643 2018-10-26T22:38:55  <gwillen> "percent of the amount of blockchain that was missing when I started up most recently" maybe?
644 2018-10-26T22:39:21  <gmaxwell> Thats probably what its being interperted as in any case.
645 2018-10-26T22:39:27  <gwillen> my user model is hopelessly contaminated with already knowing what's going on, so it makes perfect sense to _me_
646 2018-10-26T22:39:31  <gmaxwell> here is an example: https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/65056/unacceptably-slow-bitcoin-sync
647 2018-10-26T22:39:45  <gmaxwell> "Bitcoin core is currently 15 hours behind as I'm writing this and the piph (progress increase per hour) is at a STUPIDLY low speed. There are 95 blocks left but it says its going up 0.04% per hour."
648 2018-10-26T22:40:21  <gwillen> I mean, it's also maybe worth considering that some users will have less useful input than others
649 2018-10-26T22:40:29  <gwillen> "Bitcoin core is also apparently using 50% of my disk which is not true. An application was using 12mb/s of disk and it was only using about 20% of the disk total. Bitcoin core however is using 3mb/s and is using 50%"
650 2018-10-26T22:40:36  <gwillen> I can't even parse what this sentence is attempting to communicate.
651 2018-10-26T22:40:47  <sipa> gwillen: I/O bandwidth grap?
652 2018-10-26T22:41:08  <gmaxwell> gwillen: absolutely, but actually the percentage per hour is pretty inexplicable when talking about syncing 0.0002% of the chain. :P
653 2018-10-26T22:41:35  <gmaxwell> I mean in those cases the number won't even show anything useful.
654 2018-10-26T22:41:53  <gwillen> yeah, it's weird to be sure, I guess my machine syncs fast enough that I don't run into such tiny numbers for more than a few seconds
655 2018-10-26T22:41:54  <gmaxwell> gwillen: regarding that sentence, I think he edited his question.
656 2018-10-26T22:42:09  <gwillen> he did edit it, I just cannot for the life of me figure out what the edit it _saying_.
657 2018-10-26T22:42:25  <gmaxwell> gwillen: likely he only had one stuck peer up or whatever.. and probably it was done by the time he was through posting.
658 2018-10-26T22:43:19  <gmaxwell> gwillen: it's some IO meter thing, who knows what.
659 2018-10-26T22:43:36  <gmaxwell> The comment I think its basically saying "there is a lot of random IO"
660 2018-10-26T22:43:49  <gmaxwell> e.g. 50% "utilization" but only 3MB/s.
661 2018-10-26T22:44:20  <gmaxwell> In any case, I've found three people conused by the percentage thing. That was just the most clear (lol, I suppose) of them.
662 2018-10-26T22:44:40  <gwillen> yeah, *nodnods*
663 2018-10-26T22:44:47  <gmaxwell> I don't see anyone confused about the ETA thing.
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684 2018-10-26T23:52:46  <gwillen> I assume no, because nobody uses OS X but me: has anybody run the various sanitizers on OS X?
685 2018-10-26T23:53:06  <gwillen> it seems like they don't build here, due to -fsanitize being passed to the compiler but not the linker
686 2018-10-26T23:53:37  <gwillen> I can easily one-off fix this just to run them on my own change, but I am afraid to dive in to fix it properly
687 2018-10-26T23:57:46  <gwillen> oh, it's weirder than that
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689 2018-10-26T23:57:57  <gwillen> we're passing -fsanitize to libtool, which is dropping it on the floor and not passing it to the linker
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