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 17 2019-03-14T01:03:14  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] pstratem opened pull request #15597: Generate log entry when blocks messages are received unexpectedly. (master...2019-03-12-net-unexpected-block) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15597
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 21 2019-03-14T01:09:32  <gmaxwell> phantomcircuit: good spotting
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 96 2019-03-14T07:40:19  <Sentineo> MarcoFalke: did not understand you finding about those gpg keys. Is the issue with the key itself or something else? I did not open an issue yet, I can if it is just not my noobness what causes it not working :)
 97 2019-03-14T07:41:19  <gmaxwell> Sentineo: run gpg --recv-key AC6626172E00A82CFFAE8972A636E97631F767E0
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101 2019-03-14T07:59:53  <midnightmagic> w/w 3
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120 2019-03-14T10:06:07  <Sentineo> gmaxwell: thanks, that seemed to help. As it is still working, it took about a minute for it to fail before. I wonder where you got the key ID from though. Mind explaining so I can fix the issue later myself if happens again?
121 2019-03-14T10:12:04  <provoostenator> Sentineo the fingerprint of sipa's key, that you just downloaded, is in trusted-keys here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/tree/master/contrib/verify-commits
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124 2019-03-14T10:16:44  <Sentineo> oh I see, ok. Thanks provoostenator!
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147 2019-03-14T13:41:00  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] luke-jr opened pull request #15600: lockedpool: When possible, use madvise to avoid including sensitive information in core dumps or forked process memory spaces (master...lockedpool_dontdump) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15600
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150 2019-03-14T13:56:14  <provoostenator> Does the MSVC build ignore configure.ac?
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154 2019-03-14T14:06:05  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 1 commit to 0.18: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/232ef630ecd3...a01925c1502a
155 2019-03-14T14:06:05  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/0.18 a01925c Wladimir J. van der Laan: doc: Pre-rc2 translations update
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166 2019-03-14T15:13:16  <wumpus> provoostenator: I think so, yes
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170 2019-03-14T15:26:14  <provoostenator> Actually I don't think it's ignored. It's just that .appveyor.yml doesn't bust the cache when it changes. Fixed as part of #15457 (hopefully)
171 2019-03-14T15:26:16  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15457 | Check std::system for -[alert|block|wallet]notify by Sjors · Pull Request #15457 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
172 2019-03-14T15:27:10  <provoostenator> I'm trying to get Visual Studio setup on a Windows 10 VM on my Mac. It's insanely slow, but getting there...
173 2019-03-14T15:27:37  <provoostenator> I like how PowerShell supports "ls" in addition to "dir" :-)
174 2019-03-14T15:28:33  <Sentineo> does it make sense to try to do a gitian build now, or wait till official release?
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178 2019-03-14T15:45:20  <provoostenator> Sentineo: I believe v0.18.0rc2 will be tagged later today, so that's a good one to build.
179 2019-03-14T15:45:45  <provoostenator> (see https://github.com/bitcoin-core/docs/blob/master/gitian-building.md)
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182 2019-03-14T15:47:54  <Sentineo> ok great, I will try it tomorrow. Hopefully I can build it.
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185 2019-03-14T16:04:59  <hebasto> Sentineo: using gitian-build.py with Docker is probably the easiest way.
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204 2019-03-14T17:24:16  <provoostenator> How do I produce the right config.ini for the Visual Studio build? Normally AppVeyor performs some magic on config.ini.in it seems.
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213 2019-03-14T17:54:49  <promag>  anything left to do in #15583?
214 2019-03-14T17:54:51  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15583 | wallet: Log and ignore errors in ListWalletDir and IsBerkeleyBtree by promag · Pull Request #15583 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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216 2019-03-14T17:59:11  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/8e1704c01537...7fa1f6258c05
217 2019-03-14T17:59:11  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 15c69b1 João Barbosa: wallet: Log and ignore errors in ListWalletDir and IsBerkeleyBtree
218 2019-03-14T17:59:12  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 7fa1f62 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #15583: wallet: Log and ignore errors in ListWalletDir and IsBerkele...
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221 2019-03-14T17:59:59  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 1 commit to 0.18: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/a01925c1502a...ef27a060ac0d
222 2019-03-14T17:59:59  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/0.18 ef27a06 João Barbosa: wallet: Log and ignore errors in ListWalletDir and IsBerkeleyBtree
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225 2019-03-14T18:00:29  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #15583: wallet: Log and ignore errors in ListWalletDir and IsBerkeleyBtree (master...2019-03-fix-listwalletdir) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15583
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227 2019-03-14T18:00:52  <kanzure> meeting time?
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229 2019-03-14T18:00:59  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 1 commit to 0.18: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/ef27a060ac0d...85f1755163a1
230 2019-03-14T18:00:59  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/0.18 85f1755 Wladimir J. van der Laan: build: bump to rc2
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232 2019-03-14T18:01:48  <sipa> kanzure: one hour from now
233 2019-03-14T18:01:56  <achow101> kanzure: in an hour, dst
234 2019-03-14T18:02:16  <achow101> dst changed last weekend
235 2019-03-14T18:02:27  <promag> wumpus: that was fast
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237 2019-03-14T18:06:30  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 1 commit to 0.18: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/85f1755163a1...889af0eaacd9
238 2019-03-14T18:06:30  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/0.18 889af0e Wladimir J. van der Laan: doc: Update manpages
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251 2019-03-14T19:00:24  <wumpus> meeting time?
252 2019-03-14T19:00:36  <jnewbery> hi
253 2019-03-14T19:00:49  <wumpus> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag provoostenator aj Chris_Stewart_5 dongcarl gwillen jamesob ken281221 ryanofsky gleb
254 2019-03-14T19:00:53  <wumpus> #startmeeti
255 2019-03-14T19:00:53  <provoostenator> hi
256 2019-03-14T19:00:55  <wumpus> #startmeeting
257 2019-03-14T19:00:55  <lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Mar 14 19:00:55 2019 UTC.  The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
258 2019-03-14T19:00:55  <lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
259 2019-03-14T19:00:55  <achow101> hi
260 2019-03-14T19:01:09  <instagibbs> oh hi
261 2019-03-14T19:01:24  <luke-jr> hi
262 2019-03-14T19:01:27  <dongcarl> oh hi mark
263 2019-03-14T19:01:37  <instagibbs> topic: 0.18 release progress (I'm a bit out of loop on what needs backport etc)
264 2019-03-14T19:01:45  <wumpus> we're pretty much ready to tag 0.18.0rc2
265 2019-03-14T19:01:50  <instagibbs> \o/
266 2019-03-14T19:01:51  <kanzure> hi
267 2019-03-14T19:02:18  <wumpus> any topics?
268 2019-03-14T19:02:22  <cfields> hi
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271 2019-03-14T19:02:28  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #15601: build: depends: Switch to python3 (take 3) (master...1903-buildPy3) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15601
272 2019-03-14T19:02:33  <meshcollider> hi
273 2019-03-14T19:02:37  <kanzure> mailing list still in flux, no updates really
274 2019-03-14T19:02:38  <jamesob> hi
275 2019-03-14T19:02:41  *** bitcoin-git has left #bitcoin-core-dev
276 2019-03-14T19:02:43  <sipa> hi
277 2019-03-14T19:02:57  <moneyball> 4 straight weeks no #proposedmeetingtopics :)
278 2019-03-14T19:03:11  <wumpus> thanks moneyball
279 2019-03-14T19:03:16  <wumpus> #topic high priority for review
280 2019-03-14T19:03:30  <instagibbs> I'd like #15557 to get in that list
281 2019-03-14T19:03:33  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15557 | Enhance `bumpfee` to include inputs when targeting a feerate by instagibbs · Pull Request #15557 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
282 2019-03-14T19:03:41  <instagibbs> preferably before next fee event ;P
283 2019-03-14T19:03:41  <wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8 three PRs on here #15141 #10973 #14856
284 2019-03-14T19:03:49  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15141 | Rewrite DoS interface between validation and net_processing by sdaftuar · Pull Request #15141 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
285 2019-03-14T19:03:50  <wumpus> instagibbs: ok
286 2019-03-14T19:03:55  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/10973 | Refactor: separate wallet from node by ryanofsky · Pull Request #10973 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
287 2019-03-14T19:03:57  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14856 | net: remove more CConnman globals (theuni) by dongcarl · Pull Request #14856 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
288 2019-03-14T19:04:17  <wumpus> instagibbs: added
289 2019-03-14T19:04:24  <achow101> #15006 for me pls
290 2019-03-14T19:04:28  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15006 | Add option to create an encrypted wallet by achow101 · Pull Request #15006 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
291 2019-03-14T19:04:37  <cfields> I for sure owe review on 14856. Will do today.
292 2019-03-14T19:05:03  <wumpus> cfields: thanks !
293 2019-03-14T19:05:19  <jonasschnelli> hi
294 2019-03-14T19:06:00  <jonasschnelli> Can I add #15512 to the high prio list?
295 2019-03-14T19:06:02  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15512 | Add ChaCha20 encryption option (XOR) by jonasschnelli · Pull Request #15512 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
296 2019-03-14T19:06:12  <jonasschnelli> (if we are fine with adding crypto primitives)
297 2019-03-14T19:06:38  <wumpus> jonasschnelli: yes
298 2019-03-14T19:06:59  <wumpus> at least if there's concept ACK agreement to add it
299 2019-03-14T19:07:33  <jonasschnelli> Okay... added to the list. So waiting for Concept reviews
300 2019-03-14T19:09:03  <wumpus> other topics?
301 2019-03-14T19:09:43  <sipa> instagibbs had a topic
302 2019-03-14T19:09:53  <gmaxwell> RC2 is tagged. hurrah
303 2019-03-14T19:10:20  <instagibbs> any "needs" for 0.18 being the topic, in other words
304 2019-03-14T19:10:28  <wumpus> #topic 0.18.0rc2
305 2019-03-14T19:10:41  <wumpus> it's not tagged yet but intend to do so after the meeting, if no one complains
306 2019-03-14T19:10:53  <gmaxwell> oh. :P
307 2019-03-14T19:11:09  <gmaxwell> Well great, that would be a good time for people to start building too, I guess?
308 2019-03-14T19:11:24  <instagibbs> as an aside I think HWI is near 1.0, 1 open issue right achow101 ?
309 2019-03-14T19:11:31  *** F1nny has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
310 2019-03-14T19:11:41  <sipa> i'm a bit surprised by the amount of people (claiming to) use the reject message on the ML... should we proceed with making it default off in 0.18?
311 2019-03-14T19:11:43  *** promag has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
312 2019-03-14T19:11:48  <achow101> instagibbs: yeah, just one thing needs review
313 2019-03-14T19:11:59  <wumpus> #topic reject message default
314 2019-03-14T19:12:13  <wumpus> sipa: I've alwys been divided on removing it to be honest
315 2019-03-14T19:12:28  <sipa> i would very much like to disappear, but my assumption was that it was much less used than people are claiming now
316 2019-03-14T19:12:29  <gmaxwell> The comments on the list have, once you sort through the speculative claims, all been "I use it for debugging"
317 2019-03-14T19:12:45  <wumpus> that makes sense, that's what it's for
318 2019-03-14T19:13:04  <gmaxwell> I'm still confused by those however, -- because is it also "I want to debug a lite wallet without running a full node myself?"
319 2019-03-14T19:13:06  <wumpus> then again disabling it by default wouldn't affect that use case, just make sure it's enabled on the node used for debugging
320 2019-03-14T19:13:12  <gmaxwell> Right.
321 2019-03-14T19:13:14  <instagibbs> right I don't really get it.
322 2019-03-14T19:13:21  <instagibbs> have a full node for debugging?!?
323 2019-03-14T19:13:26  <gmaxwell> I think its unfortunate that that this has come up in the context of removing it entirely.
324 2019-03-14T19:13:33  <achow101> gmaxwell: istm it's debugging user submitted bug reports, not the developer debugging his own app
325 2019-03-14T19:13:49  <sipa> yeah that's the case in the schildbach wallet
326 2019-03-14T19:13:51  <promag> hi
327 2019-03-14T19:14:25  <MarcoFalke> the neutrino wallet is using them as well, apparently
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332 2019-03-14T19:14:36  <gmaxwell> achow101: Yes, but capturing the transaction itself would seem to be strictly superior for that.
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334 2019-03-14T19:15:00  <gmaxwell> MarcoFalke: along with a bunch of other assumptions about trusting the nodes its communicating with.
335 2019-03-14T19:15:24  <gmaxwell> Which is already a security model we've made a conscious decision to not add support for.
336 2019-03-14T19:15:46  <gmaxwell> MarcoFalke: and clearly not using them with existing nodes, since they require other protocol extensions.
337 2019-03-14T19:15:47  <achow101> gmaxwell: certainly. but at the same time, having the reject message can provide better ux as the user can see why their transaction was rejected (in theory)
338 2019-03-14T19:15:48  <MarcoFalke> They way one wallet makes it trustworthy is to send the tx to all nodes and see if at least half of them report the same reject reason
339 2019-03-14T19:16:00  <gmaxwell> MarcoFalke: that doesn't make it trustworthy.
340 2019-03-14T19:16:23  <MarcoFalke> Yeah, I am not going to start to explain what is wrong with that, even
341 2019-03-14T19:16:31  <gmaxwell> Right...
342 2019-03-14T19:16:41  <sipa> i'm just bringing it up because i think this ML discussion should have happened before making it disabled by default, rather than before removing it entirely
343 2019-03-14T19:16:56  <MarcoFalke> sipa: You are right
344 2019-03-14T19:17:16  <MarcoFalke> It is sort of pointless to make them disabled by default, but then not remove them
345 2019-03-14T19:17:23  <moneyball> agree with sipa
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347 2019-03-14T19:17:57  <MarcoFalke> So they should probably be enabled by default again for now. Not sure if that makes it into 0.18.0
348 2019-03-14T19:18:01  <jnewbery> it's not too late to revert #13134
349 2019-03-14T19:18:03  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/13134 | net: Add option `-enablebip61` to configure sending of BIP61 notifications by laanwj · Pull Request #13134 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
350 2019-03-14T19:18:08  <jnewbery> or just change the default to 0
351 2019-03-14T19:18:13  <gmaxwell> It was covered in the optech newsletter, but I don't see a prior ML discussion of it.
352 2019-03-14T19:18:25  <MarcoFalke> yeah, just change the default
353 2019-03-14T19:18:31  <MarcoFalke> No need to remove the option
354 2019-03-14T19:18:32  <gmaxwell> MarcoFalke: it's not pointless to disable them by default but not remove them.
355 2019-03-14T19:18:43  <gmaxwell> MarcoFalke: they're a source of a non-trivial amount of junk protocol chatter.
356 2019-03-14T19:18:53  <gmaxwell> MarcoFalke: and the reliance on them creates its own problems.
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359 2019-03-14T19:19:00  <jnewbery> sorry, I mean revert #14054
360 2019-03-14T19:19:02  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14054 | p2p: Disable BIP 61 by default by MarcoFalke · Pull Request #14054 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
361 2019-03-14T19:19:02  <gmaxwell> (including incentives to sybil attack the network)
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363 2019-03-14T19:20:06  <MarcoFalke> In light of the spv wallets that use them, default by off is the same as having them removed
364 2019-03-14T19:20:07  <sipa> ideally we can convince people to switch to more reliable methods before disabling support for it
365 2019-03-14T19:20:12  <gmaxwell> I don't see anything terrible about delaying disabling it. But I am also not sure what is going to change.
366 2019-03-14T19:20:18  <gmaxwell> sipa: there isn't anything to switch.
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368 2019-03-14T19:20:40  <gmaxwell> sipa: the two respondands saying they're using it (1) only log it, (2) don't work against bitcoin core already.
369 2019-03-14T19:20:52  <sipa> gmaxwell: ?
370 2019-03-14T19:21:32  <gmaxwell> sipa: android wallet doesn't actually do anything with the messages but log them, the neutrino wallet requires protocol extensions that are only in btcd.
371 2019-03-14T19:21:44  <sipa> right, for now
372 2019-03-14T19:21:55  <gmaxwell> so whats there to switch?
373 2019-03-14T19:22:02  <sipa> ou suggested logging the tx itself instead of the reject message, for example
374 2019-03-14T19:22:12  <gmaxwell> Okay, fair point!
375 2019-03-14T19:22:27  <sipa> plus there are other methods like seeing transactions announced back to yourself (okay, not very reliable either)
376 2019-03-14T19:22:54  <sipa> i just wish this discussion was more resolved before we possibly anger people needlessly by ripping something out they stubbornly rely on now
377 2019-03-14T19:23:11  <gmaxwell> sipa: one client does that but sends their txn to all peers :) ...
378 2019-03-14T19:23:20  <gmaxwell> 12:20:11 < gmaxwell> I don't see anything terrible about delaying disabling it. But I am also not sure what is going to change.
379 2019-03-14T19:23:30  <jnewbery> sounds like the action item is to revert #14054 before 0.18
380 2019-03-14T19:23:32  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14054 | p2p: Disable BIP 61 by default by MarcoFalke · Pull Request #14054 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
381 2019-03-14T19:23:35  <sipa> yeah, it's a fair point that delaying may just literally mean delaying it
382 2019-03-14T19:23:47  <sipa> but perhaps it does resolve the discussion further
383 2019-03-14T19:24:03  <gmaxwell> I think we should probably make it clear that we still intend to disable it by default.
384 2019-03-14T19:24:20  <MarcoFalke> jnewbery: I am fine with that, but I hope that doesn't give a signal that they are encouraged
385 2019-03-14T19:24:27  <MarcoFalke> They should still go in the long term
386 2019-03-14T19:24:32  <sipa> agree
387 2019-03-14T19:24:40  <gmaxwell> I mean I think it was clear years ago that these shouldn't be used the way people are advocating using them... like on day one.
388 2019-03-14T19:24:54  <sipa> i doubt that was clear to everyone :)
389 2019-03-14T19:25:01  <cfields> Hasn't our unwritten policy always been to deprecate in one release, and non-default/remove in the next?
390 2019-03-14T19:25:30  <MarcoFalke> cfields: I tried to do that, but apparently people only picked up on this when I wanted to remove them
391 2019-03-14T19:25:35  <sipa> cfields: for RPC that works... for P2P services it's harder
392 2019-03-14T19:25:48  <jnewbery> That's easier for RPCs because deprecation is immediately obvious to the user
393 2019-03-14T19:25:50  <gmaxwell> some of the things people are reporting doing with them haven't worked right for a long time (or ever)... (like trying to differentiate between already spent and other causes of invalidity)
394 2019-03-14T19:26:05  <moneyball> It would also help to better educate what they should do as an alternative. My reading of the thread still has me uncertain, and they also do not seem to know what to do.
395 2019-03-14T19:26:21  <gmaxwell> Actually disabling it in a release has that effect somewhat, as it'll be years before it's gone completely on the network.
396 2019-03-14T19:26:26  <cfields> sipa: I just meant that if it's going to be non-defaulted in one version, seems only fair to put it through a deprecation cycle in the preceding one.
397 2019-03-14T19:26:48  <jnewbery> how do you deprecate a P2P message in a way that users notice?
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399 2019-03-14T19:26:50  <moneyball> Good next steps IMO would be 1) revert in v0.18 2) communicate this to the list but also emphasize the long-term plan 3) educate on alternatives for these users
400 2019-03-14T19:26:51  <sipa> cfields: right, but what does 'deprecation' mean here? if it's not disabled by default, it's not even observable
401 2019-03-14T19:26:56  <gwillen> cfields: but I think sipa's point is that deprecation doesn't notify the people who care
402 2019-03-14T19:27:07  <gmaxwell> moneyball: to some extent what wants to be done just can't be done, even with rejects. You can't find out if the network is taking your transaction, it's just not something anyone can tell.
403 2019-03-14T19:27:19  <cfields> Just in the release notes.. we intend to flip this to disabled-by-default in the next release.
404 2019-03-14T19:27:28  <sipa> cfields: sgtm
405 2019-03-14T19:27:37  <cfields> that's all I meant by "deprecate".
406 2019-03-14T19:27:40  <gmaxwell> cfields: ack.
407 2019-03-14T19:27:42  <wumpus> so I guess this does hold up rc2 tagging then
408 2019-03-14T19:27:59  <jnewbery> I'm happy to open that PR now, unless MarcoFalke wants it
409 2019-03-14T19:28:06  <MarcoFalke> jnewbery: go for it
410 2019-03-14T19:28:07  <gmaxwell> jnewbery: go do it.
411 2019-03-14T19:28:22  <jnewbery> I'll do it today
412 2019-03-14T19:28:28  <provoostenator> You can make it noticable by always returning reject :-)
413 2019-03-14T19:28:37  <gmaxwell> lol
414 2019-03-14T19:28:46  <gmaxwell> provoostenator: nope, in fact.
415 2019-03-14T19:28:53  <sipa> reject 00 "The operation completed succesfully"
416 2019-03-14T19:29:02  <gmaxwell> provoostenator: because reject isn't doing anything in existing software except ending up burried in some logs.
417 2019-03-14T19:29:20  <gmaxwell> so even that would be hit or miss.
418 2019-03-14T19:30:21  <sipa> https://www.medo64.com/content/media/errortheoperationcompletedsuccessfully.png
419 2019-03-14T19:31:19  <achow101> what's the long term plan for removal? default disable in 0.19, remove in 0.20?
420 2019-03-14T19:31:24  <gwillen> I think starting mailing list discussion of what the alternatives are, and getting moneyball to spread it in the newsletter, is probably the best way to spread the good word :-)
421 2019-03-14T19:31:32  <MarcoFalke> achow101: Something like that
422 2019-03-14T19:31:56  <MarcoFalke> [15:26] <moneyball> Good next steps IMO would be 1) revert in v0.18 2) communicate this to the list but also emphasize the long-term plan 3) educate on alternatives for these users
423 2019-03-14T19:32:08  <gmaxwell> gwillen: right, what I would recommend for these logging cases is that they log the transaction and current block height.
424 2019-03-14T19:32:40  <MarcoFalke> gmaxwell: you mean the full tx in hex?
425 2019-03-14T19:32:56  <sipa> base85 FTW
426 2019-03-14T19:32:57  <moneyball> fyi harding referred to the PR commit in the sep 18 newsletter https://bitcoinops.org/en/newsletters/2018/09/18/
427 2019-03-14T19:33:04  <cfields> MarcoFalke: where do I point my DoS? :)
428 2019-03-14T19:33:10  <moneyball> and the discussion that marco started in the mar 12 newsletter https://bitcoinops.org/en/newsletters/2019/03/12/
429 2019-03-14T19:33:16  <gmaxwell> MarcoFalke: whatever is required for them to be able to reproduce! in some applications it might be less than the full tx.
430 2019-03-14T19:33:26  <gmaxwell> cfields: you're misunderstanding, the wallet should log its own transaction.
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432 2019-03-14T19:33:37  <MarcoFalke> Yeah, its only the own wallets txs
433 2019-03-14T19:33:42  <cfields> gmaxwell: I was, thanks.
434 2019-03-14T19:33:54  <gmaxwell> MarcoFalke: e.g. if the wallet always stores the tx like bitcoin core, the current block and txid are enough.
435 2019-03-14T19:34:45  <gmaxwell> cfields: basically the debugging case is "User says my transaction was never confirming" ... what do you do?  Andreas is pointing out that reject messages have been helpful.
436 2019-03-14T19:35:31  <gmaxwell> Another thing is that I see no feefilter support in that software... so obviously processing feefilters would allow them to locally learn about some of the failure cases they care about.
437 2019-03-14T19:36:51  <gmaxwell> right now reject basically only tells you didn't meet minfee vs "something else happened at the first hop", feefilter + listen to hear it back gets you essentially that, but more reliable.
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439 2019-03-14T19:37:15  <sipa> gmaxwell: though feefilter can't be relied upon either in an adverserial setting
440 2019-03-14T19:37:26  <sipa> it is less DoS risk though
441 2019-03-14T19:37:29  <gmaxwell> sipa: no but it's probably better than reject messages.
442 2019-03-14T19:38:23  <gmaxwell> esp if you obey it, e.g. don't send a txn that would violate the filter to a particular peer.
443 2019-03-14T19:40:03  <sipa> end topic?
444 2019-03-14T19:40:17  <gmaxwell> ack
445 2019-03-14T19:40:18  <wumpus> other topics?
446 2019-03-14T19:40:57  <wumpus> #endmeeting
447 2019-03-14T19:40:57  <lightningbot> Meeting ended Thu Mar 14 19:40:57 2019 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
448 2019-03-14T19:40:57  <lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2019/bitcoin-core-dev.2019-03-14-19.00.html
449 2019-03-14T19:40:57  <lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2019/bitcoin-core-dev.2019-03-14-19.00.txt
450 2019-03-14T19:40:57  <lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2019/bitcoin-core-dev.2019-03-14-19.00.log.html
451 2019-03-14T19:41:06  <sipa> #lunch
452 2019-03-14T19:41:08  <gmaxwell> [outside of meeting now]
453 2019-03-14T19:41:50  <gmaxwell> Can someone explain this tweet people were passing around? https://twitter.com/pierre_rochard/status/1104785795523719169   I don't understand how fullblock spv mode and the BIP157 related PRs are at all compariable/substutiable for each other.
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457 2019-03-14T19:42:55  <gmaxwell> (someone in #bitcoin tried asking me my opinion about that debate earlier, and I thought it would be nice to actually understand it before responding...)
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459 2019-03-14T19:43:00  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jnewbery opened pull request #15602: [p2] Enable reject messages by default (0.18...reject_message_by_default) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15602
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465 2019-03-14T19:45:15  <moneyball> My understanding is that pierre_rochard is focused on onboarding new Bitcoin users via Lightning (with his Lightning Powered Users), and he would like as many of them as possible to run full nodes, but he wants them to be able to use Bitcoin immediately so wants to support BIP157 style light clients. He's also saying if Core doesn't merge support for BIP157, he'd maintain a version of Core with it merged, and run
466 2019-03-14T19:45:16  <moneyball> it himself to support his users
467 2019-03-14T19:45:21  <harding> gmaxwell: pierre_rochard maintains an installer that installs Bitcoin Core, LND, and a LN wallet that's capable of using BIP157/158.  I think his desire is to allow people to immediately start using LND and the LN wallet using BIP157 filters served from his node while their Bitcoin Core node syncs.  That is, I don't think he's talking about hybrid SPV in Bitcoin Core by hybrid SPV via LND/Neutrino/some other wallet.
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469 2019-03-14T19:45:59  <harding> s/by hybrid/but hybrid/
470 2019-03-14T19:46:37  <gmaxwell> harding: for that sort of thing, just fetching the blocks seems completely reasonable even ideal..
471 2019-03-14T19:46:48  <provoostenator> harding: that seems a plausible interpretation
472 2019-03-14T19:47:08  <harding> gmaxwell: I agree.
473 2019-03-14T19:47:24  <gmaxwell> So then I guess the confusion there would be that what he'd really want as the alternative is 'hybrid spv mode' in the ln wallet?  not in bitcoin core.
474 2019-03-14T19:47:53  <sipa> only partially related, i think there is a lot of confusion about what "bip157" means; there is (a) the spec, allowing software to implement the filters in a private protocol like wasabi does (b) support for it in bitcoin core via RPC (what the current PRs do) (c) exposing it in core and other software via P2P for trusting peers to use (d) exposing it in core via P2P for non-trusting peers (e) a
475 2019-03-14T19:47:59  <sipa> softfork to prevent non-trusting peers from...
476 2019-03-14T19:48:02  <sipa> lying about filters (assuming trust in hashrate majority)
477 2019-03-14T19:48:14  <gmaxwell> indeed.
478 2019-03-14T19:48:38  <sipa> there seems to be a lot of antagonism on twitter against (d)
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481 2019-03-14T19:49:26  <gmaxwell> I'm not really aware of the twitter stuff (other than having been given that link) ... but my thought for many months is that I'm super excited about having the filters to make rescans usable again... and super concerned about them starting a new wave of bip37 like wallets that just blindly trust things.
482 2019-03-14T19:49:28  <harding> gmaxwell: AFAIU, he just wants some way for people to start using an LN wallet in the SPV trust model while their node syncs.  I'm not sure he cares how it happens.  I myself don't know why BIP157/158 is entangled in this, except that he might think it's necessary to accomplish that.
483 2019-03-14T19:49:33  <echeveria> sipa: (f) using it for wallet rescans.
484 2019-03-14T19:49:55  <sipa> echeveria: good point; i'd put it under (b) as trust model, but agree
485 2019-03-14T19:50:01  <echeveria> (f) ii. using it for wallet rescans while pruned.
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487 2019-03-14T19:50:42  <gmaxwell> harding: yea okay, I'd even say BIP157/158 is a pretty weak way to accomplish that particular case. ... deploying a new protocol would take a lot of time in the best case, while just fetching the blocks works now against the existing network.
488 2019-03-14T19:50:44  <harding> I've been trying to use "BIP157" for the filters themselves and "BIP158" for the P2P parts, but it's not always that clearcut.
489 2019-03-14T19:51:23  <sipa> harding: it's the other way around :p
490 2019-03-14T19:51:34  <gmaxwell> Fetchign the blocks has better security/reliablity properties. It uses more bandwidth, but that doesn't seem terribly important in the "while the user's node syncs" case.
491 2019-03-14T19:51:56  <harding> gmaxwell: yeah, and any client that supports BIP157 must, by necessity, also support grabbing and parsing full blocks anyway, so supporting grabbing all blocks after a certain height ought to be a trivial addition.
492 2019-03-14T19:52:09  <harding> sipa: is it really?  /me facepalms
493 2019-03-14T19:52:13  <gmaxwell> the bandwidth usage isn't even all that great if you're also just talking about now-forward and not the history. (14kbit/sec whoppie)
494 2019-03-14T19:52:43  <sipa> harding: yeah 158 defines the filters, 157 is the p2p protocol to expose it
495 2019-03-14T19:54:36  <gmaxwell> echeveria: (f) ii. -- thats cute.
496 2019-03-14T19:55:14  <gmaxwell> being able to rescan with a pruned wallet would be pretty nice... though carring around the filters is a pretty big hit on top of pruning (2x disk space usage maybe?)
497 2019-03-14T19:56:10  <gmaxwell> probably worth it, just because a lot more users could prune, which is becoming increasingly critical as the history is now getting larger than the most popular SSD sizes.
498 2019-03-14T19:56:40  <sipa> iirc the filters are around 20 KiB per block?
499 2019-03-14T19:57:13  <gmaxwell> they're smaller for earlier blocks, but not as much smaller as the blocks are.
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501 2019-03-14T19:58:53  <echeveria> gmaxwell: one PR has a comment that it's about 10GB today.
502 2019-03-14T19:59:23  <gmaxwell> ouch, a bit worse than I thought.
503 2019-03-14T19:59:26  <echeveria> so pruned would be 10GB + 3GB UTXO + 0.6GB blocks, but allows wallet rescan.
504 2019-03-14T19:59:35  <gmaxwell> yeah....
505 2019-03-14T19:59:39  <instagibbs> this is where commitments would help i guess
506 2019-03-14T19:59:49  <gmaxwell> instagibbs: I don't think so, actually.
507 2019-03-14T20:00:04  <instagibbs> oh?
508 2019-03-14T20:00:11  <echeveria> unpruned would be 10GB + 220GB, so a 5% hit for significantly faster imports.
509 2019-03-14T20:00:13  <gmaxwell> I mean, having to fetch 10GB+growing of data every time you want to rescan isn't really "recan supported" :P
510 2019-03-14T20:00:22  <instagibbs> oh hah right
511 2019-03-14T20:00:32  <instagibbs> well, you could forget filters on a rolling basis
512 2019-03-14T20:00:38  <instagibbs> but i guess the same logic applies
513 2019-03-14T20:00:43  <instagibbs> for just redownloading them :)
514 2019-03-14T20:00:59  <gmaxwell> yes, though we've not yet really figured out how to make time windowed rescan work well for people.
515 2019-03-14T20:01:38  *** bitcoin-git has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
516 2019-03-14T20:01:38  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] gwillen opened pull request #15603: docs: Add more tips to productivity.md (master...patch-1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15603
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518 2019-03-14T20:01:42  <gmaxwell> instagibbs: if "rescan by fetching 10gb" is okay, then probably rescan via PIR query would be better.
519 2019-03-14T20:01:50  <instagibbs> for me I just want for wallet rescan...
520 2019-03-14T20:02:33  <gmaxwell> likewise. having an extra 10GB on top of 220GB that makes rescan usable is well worth it.
521 2019-03-14T20:02:56  <gmaxwell> (well it was more well worth it when I thought it was 3gb. :P)
522 2019-03-14T20:03:16  <jonasschnelli> do you need all filters?
523 2019-03-14T20:03:27  <gmaxwell> now actually on the host I most frequently use, I wouldn't acutally have room for that.
524 2019-03-14T20:03:51  <gmaxwell> oh is the 10gb more than just the output filter? the output filter is the only one I think is at all useful.
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529 2019-03-14T20:07:15  <instagibbs> what's the PR for 158(7?)
530 2019-03-14T20:08:02  <jonasschnelli> #14121
531 2019-03-14T20:08:05  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14121 | Index for BIP 157 block filters by jimpo · Pull Request #14121 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
532 2019-03-14T20:08:25  <sipa> it should be called BIP158, there is no p2p protocol support in there :)
533 2019-03-14T20:08:41  <jonasschnelli> indeed
534 2019-03-14T20:09:06  <jonasschnelli> "Total index size is 3.8 GiB"... echeveria: where did you get the 10GB from?
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538 2019-03-14T20:22:41  <echeveria> jonasschnelli: misreading, apparently.
539 2019-03-14T20:22:58  <echeveria> gmaxwell: sipa: looks better with 3.8GB. same size as the UTXO give or take.
540 2019-03-14T20:23:34  <gmaxwell> echeveria: yeah, for the moment.. 2x. not terrible.
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551 2019-03-14T20:45:29  <roasbeef> i think in that tweet pierre is just saying that if bitcoind doesn't get fully p2p support eventually, he'd maintain a fork that implemented it, as earlier in the thread ppl proposed full block download as an alternative
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554 2019-03-14T20:46:23  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 3 commits to 0.18: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/889af0eaacd9...d3a038200709
555 2019-03-14T20:46:23  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/0.18 da14d90 John Newbery: [p2p] Enable BIP 61 REJECT messages by default
556 2019-03-14T20:46:24  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/0.18 a756363 John Newbery: [docs] document BIP 61 deprecation
557 2019-03-14T20:46:24  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/0.18 d3a0382 MarcoFalke: Merge #15602: 0.18: [p2p] Enable reject messages by default
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560 2019-03-14T20:46:42  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #15602: 0.18: [p2p] Enable reject messages by default (0.18...reject_message_by_default) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15602
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566 2019-03-14T21:04:35  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 4 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/7fa1f6258c05...b83c6f79400f
567 2019-03-14T21:04:35  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master bf12093 Sjors Provoost: [doc] productivity: fix broken link
568 2019-03-14T21:04:36  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 3a21905 Sjors Provoost: [doc] devtools: mention clang-format dependency
569 2019-03-14T21:04:36  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master ff7f31e Sjors Provoost: [doc] productivity: more advanced git range-diff
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572 2019-03-14T21:05:16  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #15444: [docs] Additional productivity tips (master...2019/02/typo-productivity) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15444
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574 2019-03-14T21:08:34  <pierre_rochard> gmaxwell: "for that sort of thing, just fetching the blocks seems completely reasonable even ideal.." agree, and c-lightning does that with spruned. This would work for LND as well, but ZMQ emulation needs to be added to spruned. I would get busy working on that, but I hear LND mainnet neutrino + btcd isn't far off.
575 2019-03-14T21:10:06  <pierre_rochard> My activism for serving up filters with bitcoind is because I'd rather be running bitcoind than btcd, just for historical reasons
576 2019-03-14T21:11:07  <pierre_rochard> "I think his desire is to allow people to immediately start using LND and the LN wallet using BIP157 filters served from his node while their Bitcoin Core node syncs."
577 2019-03-14T21:11:10  <pierre_rochard> This is exactly right
578 2019-03-14T21:12:32  <pierre_rochard> people who have to wait hours/days for IBD to be able to use LND often end up just taking the shortcut to a custodial lightning wallet. We can have both rapid onboarding and full nodes if we use a light client as a stopgap
579 2019-03-14T21:20:51  <MarcoFalke> rc2 ready to tag?
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581 2019-03-14T21:43:05  <achow101> provoostenator: what tests do you have that require importing private keys into the keypool?
582 2019-03-14T21:43:22  <achow101> I would rather not add such a feature just so a test can work easier
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584 2019-03-14T21:44:11  <webuser3254> hello, I have a question regarding pruned mode and importprivkey. I have just imported hundreds of privkeys from my electrum wallet to bitcoin gold core pruned wallet but I can't see any addresses or balances. I can't seem to be able to do rescan on pruned mode. Is there a way to see my balance or move ALL the coins to a new address?
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586 2019-03-14T21:44:38  <webuser3254> I appologise for posting it here but I can't do it #bitcoin for some reason :/
587 2019-03-14T21:45:00  <echeveria> what reason? the channel doesn't require registration.
588 2019-03-14T21:45:15  <webuser3254> "Cannot send to nick/channel: #bitcoin"
589 2019-03-14T21:45:58  <jimpo> sipa: The line between BIP 157 and 158 is kind of muddied, but the notion of filter types and a chain of headers is in 157. 158 is just the specification of the construction of the basic filter type.
590 2019-03-14T21:46:38  <jimpo> Since the index supports multiple filter types (ish), I feel like it's more related to 157 than 158
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592 2019-03-14T21:46:59  <sipa> jimpo: fair
593 2019-03-14T21:47:18  <sipa> still, the actual filter is in 158
594 2019-03-14T21:50:04  <jimpo> Eh, the data type corresponding to the BlockFilter struct is in 157 (the cfilter response)
595 2019-03-14T21:50:48  <achow101> webuser3254: rescanning requires the full blockchain. if you are pruned, you don't have the full blockchain so you can't rescan. you could use scantxoutset to get all of the utxos for our private keys and then create a raw transaction using those
596 2019-03-14T21:50:51  <jimpo> and the index PR only never does any encoding/decoding of the filter byte vector
597 2019-03-14T21:51:22  <jimpo> but I agree it's kind of in the middle of the two
598 2019-03-14T21:51:47  <sipa> yeah
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600 2019-03-14T21:58:58  <webuser3254> achow101, thank you but somehow craeting raw transaction sounds complicated to me right now... my bad again for spamming this channel.
601 2019-03-14T21:59:05  <webuser3254> thanks for all the work guys!
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634 2019-03-14T23:20:46  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jnewbery opened pull request #15604: [docs] release note for disabling reject messages by default (master...release_notes_bip61) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15604
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