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 27 2019-05-10T01:09:53  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sipa opened pull request #16001: Give WalletModel::UnlockContext move semantics (master...201905_moveunlockcontext) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16001
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104 2019-05-10T07:14:22  <jonasschnelli> sipa: Oh. I wasn't aware importmulti does not support private keys through descriptors...
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106 2019-05-10T07:20:12  <jonasschnelli> We don't even mention this in the importmulti help (that private key based descriptors silently "ignore" the privkeys)?
107 2019-05-10T07:20:32  <gwillen> I believe this is what #15414 fixes
108 2019-05-10T07:20:33  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15414 | [wallet] allow adding pubkeys from imported private keys to keypool by Sjors · Pull Request #15414 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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110 2019-05-10T07:21:09  <gwillen> oh, that might be the wrong PR
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112 2019-05-10T07:21:49  <gwillen> I meant #15024
113 2019-05-10T07:21:51  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15024 | Allow specific private keys to be derived from descriptor by meshcollider · Pull Request #15024 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
114 2019-05-10T07:22:20  <gwillen> which is in the high priority list
115 2019-05-10T07:26:16  <jonasschnelli> Yes. I see. But maybe we should add something to the importmulti help (and backport)
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117 2019-05-10T07:27:50  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jonasschnelli pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/79046d574980...695141bf7a32
118 2019-05-10T07:27:51  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2bc2b8b Jonas Schnelli: Add ChaCha20 encryption option (XOR)
119 2019-05-10T07:27:51  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2dfe275 Jonas Schnelli: Add ChaCha20 bench
120 2019-05-10T07:27:52  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 695141b Jonas Schnelli: Merge #15512: Add ChaCha20 encryption option (XOR)
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124 2019-05-10T07:28:25  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jonasschnelli merged pull request #15512: Add ChaCha20 encryption option (XOR) (master...2019/03/chacha) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15512
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127 2019-05-10T08:04:23  <tryphe> anyone know if -addnode connections count towards the total of maxconnections? no, right?
128 2019-05-10T08:08:59  <gmaxwell> tryphe: max connections, yes, but not your outbound connections
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130 2019-05-10T08:10:17  <gmaxwell> Why?
131 2019-05-10T08:10:38  <wumpus> yes, maxconnections is a hard limit (to be able to limit memory and file descriptor usage), there should be no way to exceed it
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133 2019-05-10T08:13:25  <tryphe> gmaxwell, i'm about to open a PR that addresses a bug and has some logic fixes but i'm unsure about a small part of it, in terms of the "minimum" number of file handles we should request in terms of addnode/outbound/feeler connections. MAX_ADDNODE_CONNECTIONS + MAX_OUTBOUND_CONNECTIONS + feelers = 8 + 8 + 1, but i'm not sure if that should be the minimum for -maxconnections. and if it shouldn't be, there's no way to lower those constants at
134 2019-05-10T08:13:25  <tryphe> the moment.
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137 2019-05-10T08:18:22  <gmaxwell> tryphe: okay, reviewing the logic: reducing maxconnections can (if you set it low enough) reduce the outbound connections. But it doesn't reduce the addnode connections, because how would it decide how to split up the reduction.  Addnode connections are handled seperately for the FD limits.
138 2019-05-10T08:18:57  <gmaxwell> tryphe: there probably doesn't need to be anything to lower the max addnodes: if you want fewer, add less addnodes.
139 2019-05-10T08:21:01  <tryphe> gmaxwell, i just meant in determining a "soft cap" for the theoretical minimum number of handles that could be used in the normal daemon, 8+8+1 seems to be the answer there. ie. it's unknown at runtime whether the user will need it, but they might.
140 2019-05-10T08:21:17  <wumpus> interesting, so maxconnections isn't really maxconnections
141 2019-05-10T08:21:33  <gmaxwell> tryphe: if maxconnections is lowered one of those 8s will go down.
142 2019-05-10T08:21:33  <tryphe> gmaxwell, and in this context i mean only handles for sockets
143 2019-05-10T08:22:10  <wumpus> I think it used to be different, but no sure...
144 2019-05-10T08:22:25  <tryphe> it got changed about a year ago with the new select() code i believe
145 2019-05-10T08:22:30  <gmaxwell> wumpus: right, I'd forgotten about that. It's because if maxconnections is set lower than 16 how do would decide how to share with addnode? and addnodes can be limited by not using them.
146 2019-05-10T08:22:52  <gmaxwell> wumpus: it was probably done by the change to make addnodes not use up the outbound connection slots.
147 2019-05-10T08:23:08  <gmaxwell> (which made addnode unreliable, since outbounds would eat up all its slots)
148 2019-05-10T08:23:13  <wumpus> gmaxwell: I would have expected addnode to fail at some point if it requests adding connections and there are no slots available, but I agree
149 2019-05-10T08:23:20  <gmaxwell> it wasn't an unintentional change, I just didn't remember it.
150 2019-05-10T08:23:54  <wumpus> addnode is always a manual action so if you run out of resources that way, it's your own fault
151 2019-05-10T08:24:17  <tryphe> i'm not using addnode, i'm just asking for the bug's sake (you'll see in a second, hehe)
152 2019-05-10T08:24:30  <tryphe> it probably needs some fixing
153 2019-05-10T08:25:51  <gmaxwell> wumpus: right but the problem that drove splitting them was this:  You add an addnode. Your node comes it it uses it. Great.  Then days/weeks/month later your addnode connection disconnects... now it'll never reestablish it because an automatic outbound took the 'free' socket. So the alternatives were to make addnode disconnect outbounds (which is kinda ugly since the addnode reconnect might
154 2019-05-10T08:25:51  <gmaxwell> fail), or -- not share a limit.
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156 2019-05-10T08:27:32  <gmaxwell> tryphe: sure, we've been cheating for a while with the "MIN_CORE_FILEDESCRIPTORS"
157 2019-05-10T08:28:05  <tryphe> if you set ulimit -n 150, you get this message: Warning: Reducing -maxconnections from 125 to -8, because of system limitations.
158 2019-05-10T08:28:16  <tryphe> :D
159 2019-05-10T08:28:26  <wumpus> gmaxwell: yes it gets quite complex in that case, could reserve the addnode slots and not make normal outbound connections in them (so there's nothing to disconnect), but, I think this is ok
160 2019-05-10T08:29:18  <gmaxwell> wumpus: yep, though then we'd have an odd behavior that setting maxconnections < 8 would cause you to make no connections. That might not be so bad except it would be a surprise for people with maxconnections already set to some low value.
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162 2019-05-10T08:29:18  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] tryphe opened pull request #16003: [init] an incorrect amount of file descriptors is requested, and a different amount is also asserted (master...fd-limits-3) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16003
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164 2019-05-10T08:30:00  <wumpus> tryphe: whoops it should error out in that case I think
165 2019-05-10T08:30:35  <gmaxwell> tryphe: min would be 150 + 8 + 1 + 1 + 1  I think  the MAX_OUTBOUND_CONNECTIONS gets reduced.
166 2019-05-10T08:30:54  <gmaxwell> connOptions.nMaxOutbound = std::min(MAX_OUTBOUND_CONNECTIONS, connOptions.nMaxConnections);
167 2019-05-10T08:31:34  <gmaxwell> tryphe: sounds like you're on the right path to me, though
168 2019-05-10T08:31:47  <tryphe> gmaxwell, hmm, but i wonder how the net code regards those consts. if i have -maxconnections=8 i don't know how many -addnode connections i -should- be able to make, for example
169 2019-05-10T08:32:01  <tryphe> versus other connections i mean
170 2019-05-10T08:32:23  <gmaxwell> tryphe: 8. it'll make up to 8 addnode connections regardless of what maxconnections is set to.
171 2019-05-10T08:32:34  <tryphe> ahh i see, thanks
172 2019-05-10T08:32:52  <tryphe> i figured that's how the feeler was as well
173 2019-05-10T08:33:08  <gmaxwell> tryphe: wumpus and my initial answer were incorrect, addnodes don't charge against maxconnections.
174 2019-05-10T08:33:31  <gmaxwell> Nor does the feeler IIRC though I haven't gone and checked again (feeler is short lived-- matters for FD accounting reasons)
175 2019-05-10T08:33:38  <tryphe> okay, so i should probably exclude that from nUserMinConnections, but still include it in nFDMin
176 2019-05-10T08:33:50  <tryphe> i think?
177 2019-05-10T08:34:06  <gmaxwell> no.
178 2019-05-10T08:34:18  <tryphe> oh, nevermind
179 2019-05-10T08:34:36  <gmaxwell> if the user runs with a silly ulimit that only lets them make 0 outbounds, I suppose thats their own problem!
180 2019-05-10T08:34:46  <gmaxwell> (though obviously it should be logging that fact.)
181 2019-05-10T08:36:13  <tryphe> yeah, but there are systems like mac os where the requested amount comes close to the actual system limit, unlike the 1024 default in most Linux distros
182 2019-05-10T08:36:30  <mryandao> is there even a use-case to apply ulimit changes before running an application?
183 2019-05-10T08:37:30  <tryphe> mryandao, it was simply the only thing i could find to show that there's an issue :p
184 2019-05-10T08:37:48  <gmaxwell> tryphe: on macos it increases it.
185 2019-05-10T08:38:44  <gmaxwell> Erroring out would not be a good thing to do by default on any reasonably popular system.
186 2019-05-10T08:38:49  <wumpus> mryandao: no, but some OSes do that automatically, I remember OpenBSD used to have very low FD limits for default users, don't know if this is stil true
187 2019-05-10T08:39:23  <gmaxwell> right many of the BSDs set soft limits low (actually inhereted behavior from older unixes), but applications can increase them.
188 2019-05-10T08:39:32  <wumpus> gmaxwell: I think it should error out only if it's not able to function normally, e.g. even reserve the file descriptors for the databases and default # outgoing connections
189 2019-05-10T08:40:04  <wumpus> if your 'available FD count' ends up in the negative I'd say that is true
190 2019-05-10T08:40:22  <gmaxwell> So this stuff about erroring out is only if we've run into the hardlimit (can't increase more) and still don't have enough to work.
191 2019-05-10T08:40:28  <wumpus> much better to fail initially than later on when it's unable to open a file
192 2019-05-10T08:40:31  <mryandao> its unusual for an application to be able to increase ulimit when the user has pre-define a lower ulimit before executing the application.
193 2019-05-10T08:40:38  <wumpus> gmaxwell:yes, that's what I mean
194 2019-05-10T08:40:42  <mryandao> what if an application decides to set to unlimited?
195 2019-05-10T08:41:05  <gmaxwell> mryandao: it's _really_ common for applications to increase the soft limits. Soft limits everwhere have to be 1024 or less to prevent breaking select.
196 2019-05-10T08:41:20  <gmaxwell> mryandao: so anything that doesn't have that problem increases it, your browser does, openoffice does, etc.
197 2019-05-10T08:41:33  <gmaxwell> If you want to prevent that you lower the hard limit.
198 2019-05-10T08:41:41  <tryphe> mryandao, the daemon can't increase the limit if you have it specifically set, though
199 2019-05-10T08:41:58  <tryphe> hence 125 max connections is dynamic
200 2019-05-10T08:42:40  <gmaxwell> I'm not aware of any system that has a particularly low default hard limit.
201 2019-05-10T08:42:59  <tryphe> it can lower 125 to as low as 17 (with my PR), it doesn't return an error, but i feel like people might still be dumb and try to set it lower and expect it not to make those connections
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203 2019-05-10T08:44:28  <gmaxwell> I don't think setting maxconnections higher than your system ulimit max count can support should result in a failure to start, it should do as it does now: log that its reducing your max connections.
204 2019-05-10T08:44:59  <gmaxwell> It's debatable if it should refuse to start if it can't even get enough for 8 connections, I could go either way on that.
205 2019-05-10T08:45:22  <gmaxwell> on one hand, its normal operation, on the other hand you might be noconnect and not making any connections at ll.
206 2019-05-10T08:45:25  <gmaxwell> all*
207 2019-05-10T08:46:55  <gmaxwell> sounds like wumpus prefers to at least preserve the ability to make 8 connections (I supose unless you've set maxconnections lower than even that)
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209 2019-05-10T08:48:03  <tryphe> yeah, presumably you'd be able to run -connect=0 if you want no connections or something, as i think -maxconnections was intended to only increase connections and not specify what types of connections are to be used.
210 2019-05-10T08:48:43  <tryphe> like if i have -maxconnections=1, does the feeler socket use the connection? it would be nice to mention something like that in the docs probably
211 2019-05-10T08:50:40  <tryphe> i mean mention that a value below is invalid, or something
212 2019-05-10T08:50:43  <tryphe> below x*
213 2019-05-10T08:51:41  <gmaxwell> tryphe: no maxconnections is not intended to only increase connections.
214 2019-05-10T08:51:49  <gmaxwell> In fact historically it could not increase connections.
215 2019-05-10T08:52:04  <tryphe> gmaxwell, i guess i never ran with -maxconnections=0
216 2019-05-10T08:52:26  <gmaxwell> tryphe: feeler and addnode do not eat into maxconnections count, I believe. (well I know for addnode, pretty sure for feeler)
217 2019-05-10T08:52:41  <sipa> it's a way to set resource limitations
218 2019-05-10T08:52:44  <gmaxwell> max connections is the limit on automatic and inbound connections.
219 2019-05-10T08:53:18  <sipa> running with -maxconnections=20 was fairly common advice on low-memory systems (at a tike when we had huge per-peer network buffers; it's much less impactful now)
220 2019-05-10T08:53:36  <sipa> *time
221 2019-05-10T08:54:40  <tryphe> i think i see now: int nMaxInbound = nMaxConnections - (nMaxOutbound + nMaxFeeler); via https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/net.cpp#L895
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267 2019-05-10T12:00:53  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/695141bf7a32...87dbf89271df
268 2019-05-10T12:00:53  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 5c04814 Hennadii Stepanov: Move non-linux source tarball to bitcoin-binaries
269 2019-05-10T12:00:53  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 87dbf89 MarcoFalke: Merge #15239: scripts and tools: Move non-linux build source tarballs to "...
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272 2019-05-10T12:01:23  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #15239: scripts and tools: Move non-linux build source tarballs to "bitcoin-binaries/version" directory (master...20190123-gitian-source-tarballs) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15239
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275 2019-05-10T12:11:38  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/87dbf89271df...14959753a424
276 2019-05-10T12:11:39  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 510c653 Ben Woosley: Extract ParseDescriptorRange
277 2019-05-10T12:11:39  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 1495975 MarcoFalke: Merge #15744: refactor: Extract ParseDescriptorRange
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280 2019-05-10T12:12:17  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #15744: refactor: Extract ParseDescriptorRange (master...parse-descriptor-range) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15744
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297 2019-05-10T13:16:47  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] nalinbhardwaj opened pull request #16006: rpc: use walletrbf as default setting in walletcreatefundedpsbt (master...walletcreatefundedpsbt) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16006
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339 2019-05-10T15:37:25  <tryphe> gmaxwell/wumpus: i smoothed some things out better, but still not sure if that feeler connection should be added to the initial handle minimum. let me know what you think.
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341 2019-05-10T15:37:40  <tryphe> handle/descriptor*
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355 2019-05-10T16:41:29  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] nalinbhardwaj closed pull request #16006: rpc: use walletrbf as default setting in walletcreatefundedpsbt (master...walletcreatefundedpsbt) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16006
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369 2019-05-10T17:14:54  <gmaxwell> tryphe: I think they should, you can't deactivate the feeler.
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371 2019-05-10T17:22:43  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/14959753a424...e2371f842fb9
372 2019-05-10T17:22:43  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master d20d756 Felix Weis: rpc: faster getblockstats using BlockUndo data
373 2019-05-10T17:22:44  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master e2371f8 MarcoFalke: Merge #14802: rpc: faster getblockstats using BlockUndo data
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376 2019-05-10T17:23:12  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #14802: rpc: faster getblockstats using BlockUndo data (master...201811_blockstats_undoblock) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14802
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397 2019-05-10T19:00:07  <meshcollider> #startmeeting
398 2019-05-10T19:00:07  <lightningbot> Meeting started Fri May 10 19:00:07 2019 UTC.  The chair is meshcollider. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
399 2019-05-10T19:00:07  <lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
400 2019-05-10T19:00:17  <sipa> hi
401 2019-05-10T19:00:18  <meshcollider> #bitcoin-core-dev Wallet Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag provoostenator aj Chris_Stewart_5 dongcarl gwillen jamesob ken281221 ryanofsky gleb
402 2019-05-10T19:00:23  <jnewbery> hi
403 2019-05-10T19:00:39  <phantomcircuit> hu
404 2019-05-10T19:00:44  <phantomcircuit> also hi
405 2019-05-10T19:01:02  <gmaxwell> ih
406 2019-05-10T19:01:17  <meshcollider> The meetings have been pretty short for the past few weeks so maybe this will be too, but does anyone have any topics?
407 2019-05-10T19:01:30  <jnewbery> High priority for review?
408 2019-05-10T19:02:04  <meshcollider> #topic wallet high priority for review
409 2019-05-10T19:02:06  <sipa> anything beyond what what discussed yesterday?
410 2019-05-10T19:02:10  <jnewbery> I think there are three wallet PRs in there: #15024 #15006 #15870
411 2019-05-10T19:02:13  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15024 | Allow specific private keys to be derived from descriptor by meshcollider · Pull Request #15024 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
412 2019-05-10T19:02:16  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15006 | Add option to create an encrypted wallet by achow101 · Pull Request #15006 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
413 2019-05-10T19:02:18  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15870 | wallet: Only fail rescan when blocks have actually been pruned by MarcoFalke · Pull Request #15870 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
414 2019-05-10T19:02:42  <jnewbery> Do we want to add anything for descriptor wallets?
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416 2019-05-10T19:02:58  <jnewbery> are there any pre-req PRs
417 2019-05-10T19:02:58  <sipa> i'm thinking about creating a psbt/descriptor separate tool that can update/sign, but i'm going to wait until some of the in-flight PRs are in
418 2019-05-10T19:03:30  <sipa> jnewbery: 15024 is a pre-req for descriptor wallets iirc
419 2019-05-10T19:03:36  <sipa> but already on the list
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422 2019-05-10T19:04:31  <jnewbery> other than #15427, what's on the path for the descriptor tool?
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424 2019-05-10T19:04:34  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15427 | Add support for descriptors to utxoupdatepsbt by sipa · Pull Request #15427 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
425 2019-05-10T19:04:59  <sipa> jnewbery: also 15024
426 2019-05-10T19:05:20  <sipa> oh, i have a topic: how do we expect to deal with signign scripts were different satisfactions may have different costs?
427 2019-05-10T19:05:21  <meshcollider> Andrews PR is based on #15741 and #15761 too
428 2019-05-10T19:05:25  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15741 | Batch write imported stuff in importmulti by achow101 · Pull Request #15741 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
429 2019-05-10T19:05:27  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15761 | Replace -upgradewallet startup option with upgradewallet RPC by achow101 · Pull Request #15761 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
430 2019-05-10T19:05:38  <meshcollider> But both are his PRs and he already has one
431 2019-05-10T19:05:52  <jnewbery> I think 15761 will be removed as a requirement based on the IRC meeting a few weeks ago
432 2019-05-10T19:06:02  <gmaxwell> sipa: an upper bound on the cost needs to be known before signing starts.
433 2019-05-10T19:06:09  <achow101> hi
434 2019-05-10T19:07:18  <achow101> meshcollider: 15761 isn't a requirement for descriptor wallets anymore
435 2019-05-10T19:07:33  <achow101> 15741 isn't necessarily a requirement, but it makes things faster
436 2019-05-10T19:07:42  <meshcollider> achow101: ok, that's good
437 2019-05-10T19:08:00  <sipa> we probably need something like 15741 anyway
438 2019-05-10T19:08:55  <meshcollider> But not necessarily on high priority atm, I guess we will leave it as-is
439 2019-05-10T19:08:57  <meshcollider> #topic signing scripts were different satisfactions may have different costs (sipa)
440 2019-05-10T19:09:17  <sipa> gmaxwell: yes, the easiest approach is always assuming the worst case
441 2019-05-10T19:09:43  <sipa> this is in the context of things like miniscript or the taproot proposal i recently published
442 2019-05-10T19:09:56  <gmaxwell> sipa:  that isn't quite what I meant, like if you're going to spend via branch X, you have to know that in advance if you want to use lower weight for fee purposes.
443 2019-05-10T19:10:22  <gmaxwell> so I think PSBT may need an extension for that.
444 2019-05-10T19:10:29  <sipa> right, but plugging that into fee estimation and coin selection seems nontrivial
445 2019-05-10T19:11:29  <gmaxwell> I think its trivial once you assume you have a way of knowing the "weight bound" for each input you're going to use... which itself is only triial if you always assume the worst case branch.
446 2019-05-10T19:11:30  <sipa> gmaxwell: hmm, i guess if we can come up with something sufficiently generic to put in PSBT (something that restricts certain options or so?), it can probably go in the same form into descriptor records
447 2019-05-10T19:11:38  <gmaxwell> right.
448 2019-05-10T19:11:49  <gmaxwell> my thought is that a descriptor should be subsettable.
449 2019-05-10T19:12:17  <gmaxwell> Like if a script is A or B, there should exist a descriptor that maps to the same spk but only lets you spend via A
450 2019-05-10T19:12:33  <sipa> that's an interesting idea, putting it in the descriptor itself
451 2019-05-10T19:12:41  <gmaxwell> in the context of taproot, that descriptor might not even reveal the content of B.
452 2019-05-10T19:12:46  <gmaxwell> Descriptor-slice.
453 2019-05-10T19:13:02  <sipa> let's call it a subscriptor
454 2019-05-10T19:13:04  <sipa> :p
455 2019-05-10T19:13:06  <gmaxwell> oohhhh
456 2019-05-10T19:13:17  <meshcollider> lol
457 2019-05-10T19:13:37  <gmaxwell> Right, so basically you make the cost analysis use the worst case, but use of a subscriptor can lower the worst case.
458 2019-05-10T19:14:26  <achow101> so if used with taproot, you would have the hash of the other branch indicating that that other branch won't be used
459 2019-05-10T19:15:11  <gmaxwell> right. something like that. I think you should be also able to include the data but indicate it won't be used.
460 2019-05-10T19:15:19  <sipa> i guess there could be an unavailable(...) syntax element in descriptors, which for output calculation is identical to ..., but assumes the key/path/... subexpression isn't available for signing
461 2019-05-10T19:15:22  <gmaxwell> (for a lot of applications you'll want to know what it is)
462 2019-05-10T19:15:27  <sipa> (or something more syntax sugarry)
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464 2019-05-10T19:16:27  <sipa> i like this
465 2019-05-10T19:17:38  <achow101> but does such a subscriptor need to be included in a psbt?
466 2019-05-10T19:18:27  <sipa> i think a subscriptor could just result in certain information not being put in a PSBT
467 2019-05-10T19:19:08  <sipa> like certain branches of a merkle tree (assuming a taproot psbt extension) would just be left out if they're known to be unavailable (or just unknown)
468 2019-05-10T19:19:56  <achow101> right
469 2019-05-10T19:20:08  <sipa> thanks, i don't think this much more discussion right now
470 2019-05-10T19:21:53  <meshcollider> Any other topics then?
471 2019-05-10T19:22:33  <meshcollider> Is there anything else related to the Taproot/schnorr proposals that anyone wants to discuss here?
472 2019-05-10T19:23:01  <gmaxwell> sipa: will you be doing a miniscript that targets taproot?
473 2019-05-10T19:23:33  <gmaxwell> (like a compiler that takes the current input and outputs taproot scripts)
474 2019-05-10T19:24:00  <sipa> gmaxwell: obviously :)
475 2019-05-10T19:24:27  <gmaxwell> if you were planning to anyways, it might help discussion around taproot because you could compile example scripts both ways and show how their minimum and worst case spending costs change.
476 2019-05-10T19:24:28  <sipa> meshcollider: i think most wallet discussions related to that are for later
477 2019-05-10T19:24:52  <gmaxwell> manually constructing examples is always a bummer (and easy to get wrong)
478 2019-05-10T19:25:36  <sipa> (afk now, will be back in an hour or so)
479 2019-05-10T19:25:46  <meshcollider> Ok let's end things here then, thanks everyone :)
480 2019-05-10T19:25:50  <meshcollider> #endmeeting
481 2019-05-10T19:25:50  <lightningbot> Meeting ended Fri May 10 19:25:50 2019 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
482 2019-05-10T19:25:50  <lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2019/bitcoin-core-dev.2019-05-10-19.00.html
483 2019-05-10T19:25:50  <lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2019/bitcoin-core-dev.2019-05-10-19.00.txt
484 2019-05-10T19:25:50  <lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2019/bitcoin-core-dev.2019-05-10-19.00.log.html
485 2019-05-10T19:25:54  <instagibbs> was going to ask "when miniscript in Core"
486 2019-05-10T19:26:30  <instagibbs> motivating use-cases are probably required, but above conversation answers that one way
487 2019-05-10T19:27:48  <gmaxwell> instagibbs: well, maybe it makes sense to do miniscript with taproot and not bother without.
488 2019-05-10T19:28:54  <instagibbs> yep
489 2019-05-10T19:35:11  <gmaxwell> certantly, things like taproot need miniscript in the sense that their ability will be wasted if we don't make it easier to make complex scripts.
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493 2019-05-10T20:00:30  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/e2371f842fb9...e79bbb73e08e
494 2019-05-10T20:00:30  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 96d32a7 Jon Atack: [docs] Update release-process.md
495 2019-05-10T20:00:31  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master bd63c1e Jon Atack: [docs] Update release-notes.md
496 2019-05-10T20:00:32  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master e79bbb7 MarcoFalke: Merge #15607: [Docs] Release process updates
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499 2019-05-10T20:01:11  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #15607: [Docs] Release process updates (master...release-process-updates) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15607
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537 2019-05-10T22:45:03  <sipa> jonasschnelli: now that you have benchmarks for your poly1305/chacha20 implementation... would it be much work to also implement the "standard" openssh-like construction?
538 2019-05-10T22:45:26  <sipa> it'd be good to have numbers to justify the choice for our own modification
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