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 78 2019-06-22T06:53:11  <kallewoof> sipa: I may be slow, but I thought the coinbase transaction contained the witness commitment, so simply getting the hash of everything (including coinbase) should commit to witness commitment as well.
 79 2019-06-22T06:54:37  <sipa> kallewoof: yup, it does!
 80 2019-06-22T06:54:52  <sipa> you're right
 81 2019-06-22T06:55:14  <kallewoof> sipa: OK, then I should be fine without GetWitnessHash, as the witness data is already committed to then, right?
 82 2019-06-22T06:55:23  <sipa> yeah
 83 2019-06-22T06:55:43  * sipa zZzZ
 84 2019-06-22T06:55:48  <jb55> lol
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 86 2019-06-22T06:56:28  <kallewoof> Thanks :) G'night!
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 95 2019-06-22T07:42:50  <kallewoof> Matthew Haywood suggested that a UTXO for an address that was previously spent from should be called "associate". It is currently referred to as a "used" or "reused" address/output/balance. Associate balance. Associate output. I kind of like that.
 96 2019-06-22T07:44:05  <sipa> i would suggested tainted, but that word has another meaning alreadg
 97 2019-06-22T07:45:27  <sipa> not sure i like associate
 98 2019-06-22T07:45:44  <sipa> it doesn't really convey badness
 99 2019-06-22T07:45:50  <sipa> "exposed" ?
100 2019-06-22T07:46:08  * sipa bad at sleeping
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103 2019-06-22T07:59:16  <luke-jr> kallewoof: addresses are never spent from
104 2019-06-22T07:59:45  <kallewoof> Exposed is nice, too.
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107 2019-06-22T08:00:05  <kallewoof> luke-jr: I am bad at formulating this stuff, but you understand what I am saying.
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110 2019-06-22T08:00:41  <luke-jr> kallewoof: I think the new paradigm you are introducing is harmful.
111 2019-06-22T08:01:46  <kallewoof> luke-jr: Mind explaining?
112 2019-06-22T08:02:23  <luke-jr> kallewoof: addresses have nothing to do with when the UTXOs get spent later
113 2019-06-22T08:02:48  <luke-jr> kallewoof: your new stuff is creating such a link, give credence to the "from address" myth
114 2019-06-22T08:03:18  <luke-jr> and not really solving more than a very narrow subset of the problems of address reuse
115 2019-06-22T08:03:40  <kallewoof> luke-jr: that is not my intention. I am trying to address a specific privacy issue where someone can map your UTXO set.
116 2019-06-22T08:04:34  <luke-jr> it's because it's too specific/special-cased
117 2019-06-22T08:05:03  <luke-jr> seeking to have a term like "associate" above demonstrates the problem with it IMO
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119 2019-06-22T08:05:26  <luke-jr> no such term should exist, because it's not a real relationship
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122 2019-06-22T08:07:23  <kallewoof> I am a bit confused, to be honest. If I ask you for an address to send you a payment for some service, I then know that this address is with very high accuracy belonging to luke-jr. If you spend from it, I know with reasonable accuracy that you own at least one of the outputs unless you have no change output. If I then send to that address and you use it again with other inputs, I know those inputs are luke-jr.
123 2019-06-22T08:07:56  <luke-jr> kallewoof: you don't spend from an address, and spending the UTXO is not necessarily the same person you sent to
124 2019-06-22T08:09:09  <luke-jr> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/From_address
125 2019-06-22T08:10:03  <luke-jr> sending a transaction with 1 output pays 1 address and creates 1 UTXO, but the address and UTXO are not inherently related
126 2019-06-22T08:10:10  <kallewoof> I am a bit confused, to be honest. If I ask you for an address to send you a payment for some service, I then know that the UTXO resulting in me sending money to this address is with very high accuracy belonging to luke-jr. If you spend this UTXO, I know with reasonable accuracy that you own all the inputs unless it's a coinjoin or something. If I then create another UTXO by sending to that address and you use this UTXO
127 2019-06-22T08:10:11  <kallewoof> with other inputs, I know those inputs are luke-jr as well.
128 2019-06-22T08:10:36  <kallewoof> Yes, but the normal case is that a UTXO belonging to you does not suddenly change ownership.
129 2019-06-22T08:11:37  <luke-jr> the address represents the recipient and purpose of the payment; the UTXO controls the actual funds, and may very well be part of a shared wallet
130 2019-06-22T08:12:17  <luke-jr> there is no assumption of a normal case
131 2019-06-22T08:13:10  <luke-jr> (and shared wallets are fairly normal too anyway)
132 2019-06-22T08:14:35  <luke-jr> (shared wallets are also a best practice in custodial situations)
133 2019-06-22T08:19:07  <kallewoof> luke-jr: I would love to fix this, but I'm not sure what good phrasing would be. Would you be up for making a PR?
134 2019-06-22T08:19:51  <luke-jr> kallewoof: I don't know what you mean. The problem is the behaviour, not phrasing.
135 2019-06-22T08:20:17  <luke-jr> (well, maybe phrasing is also an issue, dunno - but it's not the main issue)
136 2019-06-22T08:20:47  <kallewoof> luke-jr: Why did you not concept NACK either of the PRs? There were two of them. This has been going on for 2 years..
137 2019-06-22T08:21:13  <kallewoof> luke-jr: I may not agree with you but at least we could have discussed the direction before it was merged.
138 2019-06-22T08:21:20  <luke-jr> I thought I did and got ignored
139 2019-06-22T08:21:46  <kallewoof> luke-jr: you said "it does not fully address the problem with address reuse". That's not a concept NACK on the code itself, it's saying "this is not enough".
140 2019-06-22T08:21:56  <luke-jr> "an address that has been used before, and the UTXOs received at the same time have been spent" should neither have a term nor affect behaviour
141 2019-06-22T08:21:57  <kallewoof> which I interpreted as "we need to do more beyond this" (but it's a start)
142 2019-06-22T08:23:23  <kallewoof> luke-jr: Should wallets avoid spending UTXO:s that are associated with a pubkey that is known to have been spent by the wallet itself?
143 2019-06-22T08:23:43  <kallewoof> luke-jr: Should wallets distinguish between these, and other UTXO:s, in any way?
144 2019-06-22T08:26:25  <luke-jr> kallewoof: IMO wallets should not accept multiple payments with the same address, and if they do, should flag them all as permanently unconfirmed until the specific UTXOs get spent (which is kinda unrelated to the payment, but confirmations usually are anyway)
145 2019-06-22T08:27:23  <luke-jr> (or possibly flag one as confirmed, and spend only that one by itself, waiting for it to be confirmed before any others are spent)
146 2019-06-22T08:27:53  <kallewoof> luke-jr: Since miners can still mine those payments, you are saying that wallets should dinstiguish between them. That is what #13756 does, right?
147 2019-06-22T08:27:55  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/13756 | wallet: "avoid_reuse" wallet flag for improved privacy by kallewoof · Pull Request #13756 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
148 2019-06-22T08:28:27  <luke-jr> kallewoof: based on the address reuse alone, not address reuse PLUS "the UTXOs created were spent"
149 2019-06-22T08:29:04  <sipa> what does the utxos being spent have to do with it?
150 2019-06-22T08:29:11  <kallewoof> luke-jr: So basically, take what I did and add a further restriction where it immediately marks up the 2nd+ payments, even if I ahvent spent the first, right?
151 2019-06-22T08:29:25  <luke-jr> kallewoof: right
152 2019-06-22T08:29:37  <luke-jr> sipa: the current behaviour is the same as before, until a UTXO is spent
153 2019-06-22T08:29:47  <sipa> ah
154 2019-06-22T08:30:25  <sipa> i don't understand what spending has to do with it still
155 2019-06-22T08:30:47  <luke-jr> kallewoof: some care may be needed in the case of multiple un-mined transactions paying the same address; you'd probably want to mark the lower value regardless of arrival order
156 2019-06-22T08:30:58  <sipa> or whether you're talking about behavior in a release, in master, or how you imagine it
157 2019-06-22T08:31:01  <kallewoof> sipa: idea is, even if you send multiple times, no harm/no foul until i spend it. assuming i spend it all at once, you wont gain anything from giving me extra money.
158 2019-06-22T08:31:16  <luke-jr> kallewoof: but there IS harm/foul
159 2019-06-22T08:31:34  <luke-jr> just not that narrow specific case you addressed
160 2019-06-22T08:32:09  <kallewoof> luke-jr: I mean, yes, but the harm/foul happened before I even spent the outputs.
161 2019-06-22T08:32:29  <sipa> well the issue is someone *expecting* multiple payments to the same address
162 2019-06-22T08:32:38  <sipa> that issue is addressed by educating
163 2019-06-22T08:33:05  <sipa> once the payments have been made, there is a distinct issue, which is a privacy loss
164 2019-06-22T08:33:37  <sipa> which only manifests if being paid again after already having spent the first utxo
165 2019-06-22T08:33:37  <luke-jr> the current-master strange behaviour is only going to make education worse :p
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167 2019-06-22T08:35:23  <sipa> i doubt that
168 2019-06-22T08:35:49  <kallewoof> I need to go, but I will see if I can figure out what the problem is and how to fix it. I am honestly a bit confused. And surprised.
169 2019-06-22T08:36:04  <luke-jr> it will further the myth that address reuse is only harmful if you "spend from" it first
170 2019-06-22T08:36:40  <luke-jr> (which will in turn strengthen and for the first time give Core credibility to the "from address" myth)
171 2019-06-22T08:38:16  <luke-jr> I should also go to bed
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189 2019-06-22T10:00:50  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] meshcollider pushed 4 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/32e94538185b...2cbcc55ba6ae
190 2019-06-22T10:00:50  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 53c3c1e Karl-Johan Alm: wallet/rpc/getbalances: add entry for 'mine.used' balance in results
191 2019-06-22T10:00:51  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 3d2ff37 Karl-Johan Alm: wallet/rpc: use static help text
192 2019-06-22T10:00:52  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 71d0344 Karl-Johan Alm: docs: release note wording
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195 2019-06-22T10:01:49  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] meshcollider merged pull request #16239: wallet/rpc: follow-up clean-up/fixes to avoid_reuse (master...2019-06-followup-avoidreuse) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16239
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199 2019-06-22T10:18:14  <meshcollider> promag: what's the status with #13339, is that still happening or should it be closed?
200 2019-06-22T10:18:17  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/13339 | wallet: Replace %w by wallet name in -walletnotify script by promag · Pull Request #13339 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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204 2019-06-22T10:40:34  <fanquake> meshcollider when thinking about the wallet GUI, what end user do you normally have in mind? Somewhere on the spectrum of "new non-technical user, just downloaded Bitcoin Core" & "one of the engineers that helps build Bitcoin Core"?
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206 2019-06-22T10:41:34  <fanquake> Just trying to figure out who we are targeting in #15450. Seems like it's leaning towards engineers.
207 2019-06-22T10:41:38  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15450 | [GUI] Create wallet menu option by achow101 · Pull Request #15450 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
208 2019-06-22T10:42:56  <meshcollider> fanquake: usually the former, I think more advanced users will prefer to use the command line anyway, I think the two main purposes the GUI serves in my mind is 1) for less technical users that just want to start it up and run bitcoin, and 2) for more advanced users to do stuff that would be really painful on the command line like coin selection stuff
209 2019-06-22T10:44:30  <meshcollider> in that specific case, I think multiwallet is not inherently complicated if create, open, close, whatever are all available in the GUI?
210 2019-06-22T10:44:40  <fanquake> Fair enough. I think we should really be trying to optimise for 1) (with hidden options/config etc still available for 2)).
211 2019-06-22T10:44:52  <meshcollider> yeah I agree
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213 2019-06-22T10:44:58  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanatid opened pull request #16267: bench: Benchmark blockToJSON (master...bench-blocktojson) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16267
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215 2019-06-22T10:45:57  <meshcollider> but at least in my mind, most computer-users are familiar with basic open, close, create commands, it seems natural to have a create command if we already have decent GUI multiwallet support
216 2019-06-22T10:46:53  <fanquake> Yea I've got no issue with create. I'm thinking in the create flow. In the ideal non-technical user world, we've just got the name field, with those other three options hidden in a "Advanced Users" drop-down (and encrypt wallet checked by default, if that's not too aggressive).
217 2019-06-22T10:47:16  <fanquake> and there'd be no way to tick encrypt wallet, and actually end up with an unencrypted wallet.
218 2019-06-22T10:47:57  <meshcollider> yep
219 2019-06-22T10:48:13  <meshcollider> that would suit the general use case fine IMO
220 2019-06-22T10:48:20  <fanquake> I'm even concerned "Make Blank Wallet" is going to get ticked quite a lot, when users don't mean it, because the logical non-technical thought will be, why would I want anything other than a blank wallet..
221 2019-06-22T10:48:29  <fanquake> I'll add my thoughts to that discussion anyways.
222 2019-06-22T10:49:17  <meshcollider> +1
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239 2019-06-22T13:20:07  <achow101> fanquake: I looked at having the options hidden, but I couldn't figure out how to do it in qt with a lot of hacks and things I don't know how to do
240 2019-06-22T13:20:39  <achow101> Re blank wallet, do you have any suggestions for a better name?
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248 2019-06-22T13:53:14  <fanquake> achow101: That's fair enough. I'm not sure re "Blank", going to think about it a bit more.
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351 2019-06-22T21:50:02  <ossifrage> I have 'onlynet=ipv4' in my bitcoin.conf, but I saw this today (with 2cbcc55ba) "Error: Couldn't open socket for incoming connections (socket returned error Address family not supported by protocol (97))"
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355 2019-06-22T21:59:59  <ossifrage> Hmm, I looked back over the logs and it has been doing that for a while.
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366 2019-06-22T22:34:51  <sipa> ossifrage: onlynet is about outgoing connections, it does not affect incoming
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370 2019-06-22T22:52:49  <ossifrage> sipa, ah, thanks
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