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 69 2019-07-15T06:44:44  <fanquake> Does anyone know why Travis gets marked as failing, even though all tests are passing? i.e https://travis-ci.org/bitcoin/bitcoin/builds/558768209 is all green, but I see red in the GitHub UI (#16386) .It seems that running the extended lint stage will kick it over to green though..
 70 2019-07-15T06:44:48  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16386 | depends: disable unused Qt features by fanquake · Pull Request #16386 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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 95 2019-07-15T06:58:26  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #16392: WIP build: macOS toolchain update (master...macos-toolchain-update) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16392
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209 2019-07-15T10:34:06  <stevenroose> Is there a limit to the size of the label field for addresses?
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246 2019-07-15T12:04:11  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/536590f358dc...0822b44d8a68
247 2019-07-15T12:04:11  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 8f250ab Steven Roose: TEST: Replace hard-coded hex tx with classes
248 2019-07-15T12:04:12  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 0822b44 MarcoFalke: Merge #15282: test: Replace hard-coded hex tx with class in test framework...
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251 2019-07-15T12:04:42  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #15282: test: Replace hard-coded hex tx with class in test framework (master...util-messages) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15282
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303 2019-07-15T14:53:48  <jb55> stevenroose: it looks like it's serialized as compactsized-length and then a string, so no.
304 2019-07-15T14:54:14  <stevenroose> jb55: cool, thanks!
305 2019-07-15T14:54:43  <stevenroose> I need to store multiple pieces of information in there for some project. So I'll fill it with a JSON object with multiple fields :D
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307 2019-07-15T14:55:02  <stevenroose> They say blockchain is just a slow database :D
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310 2019-07-15T15:00:15  <stevenroose> Something else less core-related: the segwit p2wpkh verification is implemented totally stand-alone, right?
311 2019-07-15T15:00:45  <stevenroose> It's not converted into some weird script or so, right? I'm pretty sure it's not. It's just that I'm spending a segwit output in a test script and I'm getting this error:
312 2019-07-15T15:01:03  <stevenroose> non-mandatory-script-verify-flag (Script failed an OP_EQUALVERIFY operation) (code 64)
313 2019-07-15T15:02:07  <stevenroose> I'm asserting above that this is the script: 0014621daf5f171129d0c56f9d012b9306e215bde726, which is clearly a segwit script and not p2pkh or whatever script with OP_EQUALVERIFY
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317 2019-07-15T15:20:06  <stevenroose> Does segwit also require adding the sighash byte at the end of the signature?
318 2019-07-15T15:21:56  <sipa> p2wpkh/p2wsh do
319 2019-07-15T15:22:40  <sipa> and p2wpkh uses as redeemscript the equivalent p2pkh script
320 2019-07-15T15:24:17  <stevenroose> sipa so for the bip143 sighash calculation, do I need to provide a "witness script"?
321 2019-07-15T15:24:31  <stevenroose> I thought that was only for p2wsh.
322 2019-07-15T15:24:52  <stevenroose> After adding the sighash byte, I'm getting this: non-mandatory-script-verify-flag (Signature must be zero for failed CHECK(MULTI)SIG operation) (code 64)
323 2019-07-15T15:25:16  <stevenroose> It seems that segwit operations somehow enter the script execution code, which confuses me.
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325 2019-07-15T15:26:34  <sipa> stevenroose: the witness script never goes into the sighash
326 2019-07-15T15:26:50  <sipa> not in v0 witness or in legacy
327 2019-07-15T15:27:07  <sipa> the *executed code* (scriptcode) goes into the sighash
328 2019-07-15T15:27:13  <stevenroose> sipa: this field 5. scriptCode of the input (serialized as scripts inside CTxOuts)
329 2019-07-15T15:27:23  <stevenroose> Is called "witness_script" in Andrew's Rust implementation.
330 2019-07-15T15:27:34  <sipa> that's confusing
331 2019-07-15T15:27:35  <stevenroose> What should I provide for that? The output script of the utxo?
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333 2019-07-15T15:27:57  <sipa> the executed code
334 2019-07-15T15:28:09  <sipa> for p2wsh that is the witness script
335 2019-07-15T15:28:20  <sipa> for p2wpkh that is the equivalent p2pkh script
336 2019-07-15T15:28:27  <stevenroose> I don't know what the "executed code" or "witness script" refer to?
337 2019-07-15T15:28:30  <stevenroose> Witness program?
338 2019-07-15T15:28:36  <sipa> bip143 has examples
339 2019-07-15T15:28:38  <stevenroose> The p2wpkh script_pubkey?
340 2019-07-15T15:28:46  <sipa> the program being executed
341 2019-07-15T15:28:59  <sipa> i don't know how i can be clearer :)
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343 2019-07-15T15:29:15  <stevenroose> ss << static_cast<const CScriptBase&>(scriptCode);
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346 2019-07-15T15:29:41  <sipa> yes
347 2019-07-15T15:29:53  <stevenroose> sipa: well I don't know which program is gonna be executed without knowing the internals, right? :) What is more helpful is where I can find that program..
348 2019-07-15T15:30:00  <sipa> scriptCode is the script being executes by the script interpreter
349 2019-07-15T15:30:16  <sipa> for p2wsh that is the witness program
350 2019-07-15T15:30:48  <sipa> for p2wpkh that is the equivalent p2pkh program (dup hash160 <hash> equalverify checksig, iirc)
351 2019-07-15T15:31:11  <stevenroose> I'm getting OP_EQUALVERIFY errors, so I'm getting the feeling that segwit validation is somehow done by converting the witness program into a legacy script equivalent. I never heard of such a thing, though, so I'm confused :)
352 2019-07-15T15:31:24  <sipa> yes
353 2019-07-15T15:31:27  <sipa> i just told you
354 2019-07-15T15:31:28  <stevenroose> Ah ok, so there actually *is* some kind of p2wpkh->p2pkh convertion under the hood.
355 2019-07-15T15:31:34  <sipa> yes
356 2019-07-15T15:32:15  <stevenroose> Wow, that's strange :) Glad that goes with taproot :) Ok, so I have to serialize a legacy p2pkh output script and provide that. Cool, thanks!
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360 2019-07-15T15:37:15  <stevenroose> Yay, that worked!
361 2019-07-15T15:38:15  <sipa> :)
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405 2019-07-15T17:48:39  <Raystonn> There are way too many cases of CAmount and double being mixed together.  That's just unsafe.  I'm going to start cleaning those up.  CAmount should not be used with floating point types, which can drop digits.
406 2019-07-15T17:49:34  <sipa> doubles have 52 bit precision, which is sufficient for any valid BTC amount
407 2019-07-15T17:49:42  <sipa> internally, amounts are always represented as CAmount
408 2019-07-15T17:49:47  <Raystonn> That makes assumptions as to the internal representation of CAmount.
409 2019-07-15T17:49:57  <sipa> CAmount is an int64
410 2019-07-15T17:50:01  <Raystonn> This can change in the future.
411 2019-07-15T17:50:16  <sipa> sure
412 2019-07-15T17:50:40  <Raystonn> Test cases that mix double with CAmount will then start failing.
413 2019-07-15T17:50:45  <Raystonn> Not great.
414 2019-07-15T17:50:58  <Raystonn> The code shoudl be more robust there.  I will clean it up.
415 2019-07-15T17:51:49  <sipa> internally everything is represented as CAmounts
416 2019-07-15T17:51:58  <sipa> floating point things are only used for feerate policies
417 2019-07-15T17:52:17  <Raystonn> I wish that were true.
418 2019-07-15T17:52:28  <Raystonn> Lots of mixing in double calculations in core code.
419 2019-07-15T17:52:43  <Raystonn> decays, etc.
420 2019-07-15T17:52:54  <sipa> where?
421 2019-07-15T17:53:19  <sipa> the fee estimation code, sure
422 2019-07-15T17:53:31  <sipa> consensus rules only use CAmount
423 2019-07-15T17:53:54  <Raystonn> That's a great start.
424 2019-07-15T17:53:59  <Raystonn> and certainly required.
425 2019-07-15T17:54:19  <sipa> if you were more specific i could give better advice
426 2019-07-15T17:55:00  <sipa> you're not going to rewrite the fee estimation code without floating point logic
427 2019-07-15T17:57:37  <Raystonn> It's certainly possible.  One can break out such code into integer operations that use integer numerator and denominators instead of a single float decay rate.  A CAmount can then be multiplied by the numerator, then divided by the denominator, and still get the desired result.  The fractional portion of the result will still be truncated when storing the actual fee as a CAmount.
428 2019-07-15T17:58:10  <sipa> yes, you can
429 2019-07-15T17:58:11  <Raystonn> This would be safe even if CAmount was upgraded to a larger-range type.
430 2019-07-15T17:58:13  <sipa> but why would you?
431 2019-07-15T17:58:19  <sipa> exact accuracy isn't required for any of that
432 2019-07-15T17:58:42  <Raystonn> Whereas use a a floating point type will break the calculations upon any such upgrade in the future.
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434 2019-07-15T17:58:58  <sipa> CAmount can't be upgraded to a larger range type
435 2019-07-15T17:59:08  <Raystonn> Of course it can.
436 2019-07-15T17:59:17  <sipa> and even if it did, nothing would break with feerate calculations
437 2019-07-15T17:59:26  <sipa> as those are approximate anyway
438 2019-07-15T17:59:44  <Raystonn> It could easily overflow the significant digits available in a double if we upgrade to a 128-bit integer.
439 2019-07-15T17:59:59  <sipa> So?
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441 2019-07-15T18:00:54  <sipa> a 0.0000000000002% rounding error on a feerate is much less than the variations that are inherent due to inconsistency of mempools
442 2019-07-15T18:01:24  <sipa> and again, bitcoin's consensus rules don't permit amounts above 2100000000000000 units
443 2019-07-15T18:01:40  <Raystonn> If fees were to move into sub-satoshi range, that rounding errors would be pretty large as everything sub-satoshi gets truncated.
444 2019-07-15T18:02:25  <sipa> bitcoin does not have sub-satoshi units
445 2019-07-15T18:02:29  <Raystonn> yet
446 2019-07-15T18:02:50  <sipa> that would be such an invasive hard fork that the code changes necessary to do it correctly will be the least of our worries
447 2019-07-15T18:02:50  <Raystonn> and there's no erason to keep code that woudl break under these circumstances when it's so easy to fix.
448 2019-07-15T18:02:58  <sipa> please focus on real issues
449 2019-07-15T18:03:14  <Raystonn> I'm not asking you to make any changes.
450 2019-07-15T18:03:27  <Raystonn> This is what I'm choosing to look at.
451 2019-07-15T18:03:40  <sipa> and i'm suggesting there are better ways to spend your time
452 2019-07-15T18:03:53  <Raystonn> That's fine.
453 2019-07-15T18:04:01  <Raystonn> We can disagree. ;)
454 2019-07-15T18:04:12  <sipa> of course
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457 2019-07-15T18:11:24  <sipa> but in my opinion, getting rid of floating point logic in places where exact accuracy isn't required would be a waste of your time
458 2019-07-15T18:16:15  <Raystonn> Normally I'd agree.  But upon testing a change of CAmount to boost::multiprecision::int128_t, the floating point operations aren't even supported.  I could add them, but it could lead to dropped precision or accuracy some place where it matters simply by defining the operators.
459 2019-07-15T18:16:35  <sipa> there is no need for 128 bit integers
460 2019-07-15T18:16:41  <Raystonn> Right now no.
461 2019-07-15T18:17:04  <sipa> it seems highly unlikely that a change to the monetary policy will ever happen in bitcoin
462 2019-07-15T18:17:29  <sipa> you can prepare for all kinds of theoretical adaptations, but this isn't a realistic one
463 2019-07-15T18:17:34  <Raystonn> Bitcoin must remain <= 21 million coins.
464 2019-07-15T18:17:54  <Raystonn> Divisibility of those coins can be expanded.
465 2019-07-15T18:18:05  <sipa> not without a very invasive hardfork
466 2019-07-15T18:18:44  <sipa> and such changes are generally considered off-topic here
467 2019-07-15T18:19:27  <Raystonn> Right now I'm just talking about cleaning up use of floating point operations where unneeded.
468 2019-07-15T18:19:34  <sipa> they are not unneeded
469 2019-07-15T18:19:41  <sipa> they're an engineering choice
470 2019-07-15T18:20:13  <sipa> yes you can get rid of them at the cost of replacing them with more complex logic that effectively reimplements it
471 2019-07-15T18:20:18  <sipa> but that is not a good trade-off
472 2019-07-15T18:20:36  <sipa> there is nothing "unclean" about the use of floating point numbers; they're the right tool for the job, in some places
473 2019-07-15T18:22:16  <sipa> and i can't speak for any of the other reviewers of course, but i doubt such a change would be accepted
474 2019-07-15T18:25:05  <sipa> now if you find places where floating point logic is used where inaccurancy may actually affect the correctness of the code, i'd very much like to hear it
475 2019-07-15T18:25:08  <Raystonn> I certainly have no interest in any fork that might create yet another sh-coin.  Not my intention.  I'm just trying to make the code more robust to future enhancements without breaking backward compatibility.
476 2019-07-15T18:27:48  <Raystonn> Many years into the future I could foresee the desire to continue the block reward into sub-satoshi units, keeping the asymptote at 21,000,000 coins.
477 2019-07-15T18:28:07  <sipa> that would be a change to the monetary policy
478 2019-07-15T18:28:57  <sipa> and again, i don't see how that would in any way invalidate the use of floating point for feerate calculations
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480 2019-07-15T18:29:19  <Raystonn> For a code path that has never been executed, and won't for at least 120 years.
481 2019-07-15T18:29:48  <sipa> it is executed every block
482 2019-07-15T18:30:10  <sipa> so please, if you want to contribute in a useful, focus on other issues
483 2019-07-15T18:30:37  <sipa> not long-in-the-future hypotheticals that you still haven't clearly motivated would invalidate the current code
484 2019-07-15T18:30:46  <Raystonn> I mean the code path that would be added to support sub-satoshi block rewards... we wouldn't get there for another 120 years.
485 2019-07-15T18:30:51  <achow101> Raystonn: please keep in mind that any change you make must be reviewed by others and they must all approve it before a change is merged. It is highly unlikely that such a change will pass review, so I would recommend that you don't waste effort into trying
486 2019-07-15T18:31:00  <Raystonn> Anything added there now would never see a fork.
487 2019-07-15T18:31:21  <sipa> Raystonn: sorry, hardfork discussions are offtopic here (you can bring that up on the mailinglist if you want)
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489 2019-07-15T18:32:40  <achow101> Raystonn: if we wouldn't gt there for another 120 years, then do it 120 years in the future when it becomes a problem
490 2019-07-15T18:32:41  <Raystonn> I will drop the discussion on sub-satoshi block rewards.
491 2019-07-15T18:33:09  <Raystonn> 120 years from now it would result in a fork as people are already running the code and getting no reward.
492 2019-07-15T18:33:16  <Raystonn> Proper planning prevents...
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511 2019-07-15T19:25:42  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/0822b44d8a68...6d37ed888e34
512 2019-07-15T19:25:43  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master c7f6ce7 Carl Dong: docs: Improve netbase comments
513 2019-07-15T19:25:44  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 6d37ed8 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #15824: docs: Improve netbase comments
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516 2019-07-15T19:26:20  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #15824: docs: Improve netbase comments (master...2019-04-netbase-comments) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15824
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522 2019-07-15T19:37:13  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 opened pull request #16394: Allow createwallet to take empty passwords to make unencrypted wallets (master...fix-born-enc) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16394
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533 2019-07-15T19:52:08  <stevenroose> Is there a flag for the min tx fee to include in blocks? Equivalent to minrelaytxfee?
534 2019-07-15T19:52:51  <stevenroose> -blockmintxfee?
535 2019-07-15T19:53:07  <luke-jr> right
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542 2019-07-15T20:00:21  <elichai2> achow101: Hey, any insight of the reason that `createpsbt` need to support 2 different formatting for the outputs? (one as an array another as a dictionary)
543 2019-07-15T20:01:11  <achow101> elichai2: createrawtransaction allows both (api changed at some point, but old style kept for backwards compatibility), and the same construction function is used in both so createpsbt takes both
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545 2019-07-15T20:03:10  <elichai2> :/ makes it harder to add new stuff there, but i'll figure it out, thanks!
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548 2019-07-15T20:07:40  <sipa> elichai2: why would you need to touch that rpc?
549 2019-07-15T20:08:10  <elichai2> sipa: testing how would taproot look when combined into psbt
550 2019-07-15T20:08:42  <sipa> you shouldn't need to touch any of those rpcs
551 2019-07-15T20:08:56  <sipa> only the signing/psbt logic
552 2019-07-15T20:09:33  <sipa> and descriptors
553 2019-07-15T20:11:33  <elichai2> sipa: you're right. but if I go the regular way I need to add: 1. new descriptors. 2. classes and support for WitnessV2 bech32 addresses. 3. Classes for taproot in the wallet. serialization+deserialization of taproot and witness v2 addresses.
554 2019-07-15T20:11:44  <elichai2> this is a lot of logic that require more careful handeling
555 2019-07-15T20:12:54  <elichai2> and way more work. I'm trying to concentrate around PSBT for now. so i'm using `createpsbt` as a "hack" because that's the only psbt RPC command that doesn't relay on the wallet. (I'll probably move that logic to a seperate "createrawpsbt" or a `bitcoin-psbt` bin)
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557 2019-07-15T20:13:33  <sipa> for experimentation purposes that's fine of course
558 2019-07-15T20:13:59  <sipa> but i don't think we'll add any taproot support to the wallet except "doing it right"
559 2019-07-15T20:14:19  <elichai2> yeah I get the separation of concern for the psbt RPC methods
560 2019-07-15T20:15:06  <sipa> no, i mean: nothing in those RPC arguments should change for taproot
561 2019-07-15T20:15:07  <elichai2> sipa: does "doing it right" require full taproot support in the wallet? or can it be just psbt support via a raw psbt creation method that doesn't require a wallet?
562 2019-07-15T20:15:26  <sipa> elichai2: i don't see how those two options are different :)
563 2019-07-15T20:15:52  <achow101> elichai2: it would mean full support in the wallet with walletprocesspsbt handling all of the updating in the background. i.e. the user never provides the taproot info in an rpc
564 2019-07-15T20:15:57  <sipa> if we have taproot support in descriptors and psbt, we'll automatically have it in tbe wallet
565 2019-07-15T20:16:04  <achow101> just like right now the user never provides keys, utxos, etc. in the rpc
566 2019-07-15T20:16:46  <elichai2> achow101: yes. which makes it harder to use if for example this isn't a transaction that you have in your wallet. i.e. there's no equivilant to `createrawtransaction`
567 2019-07-15T20:17:02  <sipa> there is createpsbt?
568 2019-07-15T20:17:15  <achow101> but that's a problem with updating any psbt right now
569 2019-07-15T20:17:24  <elichai2> achow101: right
570 2019-07-15T20:17:50  <elichai2> solving that problem will make adding taproot to psbt easier by not needing to add it to the wallet first
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572 2019-07-15T20:18:05  <sipa> what does "adding it to the wallet" mean?
573 2019-07-15T20:18:27  <elichai2> elichai2 sipa: you're right. but if I go the regular way I need to add: 1. new descriptors. 2. classes and support for WitnessV2 bech32 addresses. 3. Classes for taproot in the wallet. serialization+deserialization of taproot and witness v2 addresses.
574 2019-07-15T20:18:31  <sipa> and we have psbt support for the full stack of operations outside of the wallet
575 2019-07-15T20:18:47  <sipa> taproot can be implemented tested without ever touching the wallet code at all
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577 2019-07-15T20:19:10  <achow101> *assuming descriptor wallets
578 2019-07-15T20:19:12  <sipa> maybe there are some minor changes at some point past descriptor wallets to change the default to taproot addresses or something
579 2019-07-15T20:19:19  <elichai2> sipa: what achow101 said
580 2019-07-15T20:19:26  <sipa> elichai2: well, not even
581 2019-07-15T20:19:57  <sipa> ah, right, we don't have the equivalent of walletprocesspsbt using descriptors yet
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583 2019-07-15T20:20:05  <sipa> maybe we need that first :)
584 2019-07-15T20:20:25  <sipa> then all we need is adding taproot to psbt/descriptors, and the full stack of operations would be supported outside of the wallet
585 2019-07-15T20:20:42  <sipa> musig is harder though, as it requires state on the signer device
586 2019-07-15T20:21:19  <elichai2> as far as I could see, right now if you'll pass a bech32 with segwit v2 it won't know how to parse it. it won't know that the witness program contains a public key. and it doesn't have any structure to handle a tree with multiple scripts
587 2019-07-15T20:21:28  <sipa> yes it does
588 2019-07-15T20:21:38  <sipa> (the first thing)
589 2019-07-15T20:22:22  <sipa> i don't think we need a whole tree structure even
590 2019-07-15T20:22:33  <stevenroose> Is there a way to "reset" the Core wallet? I'm using regtest using a client and in between tests, I'd like to sweep the wallet from all imported addresses and transactions.
591 2019-07-15T20:22:53  <sipa> elichai2: just a psbt record of the form "this pubkey is derived from this internal pubkey, and this merkle branch, to this script and leaf version"
592 2019-07-15T20:23:12  <stevenroose> I tried to unload the active wallet and "createwallet" a new one, but then it expects me to use the /wallet/<walletname> endpoint, which the client we're using doesn't support yet.
593 2019-07-15T20:23:28  <elichai2> sipa: for a wallet support we need the whole tree structure, for psbt we don't
594 2019-07-15T20:23:39  <sipa> elichai2: the tree would be in the descriptor
595 2019-07-15T20:23:44  <sipa> nowhere else
596 2019-07-15T20:25:44  <sipa> the 32-byte x coordinate idea (which we may update taproot with) may affect how that psbt record is structured too
597 2019-07-15T20:26:07  <elichai2> sipa: correct me if I'm right, but trying to give it bech32 with witnessV1 will make it use `WitnessUnknown`, right? so we need some struct like `WitnessV1PubKey`
598 2019-07-15T20:26:16  <sipa> yeah
599 2019-07-15T20:26:20  <sipa> that's easy :)
600 2019-07-15T20:27:01  <elichai2> sipa: yeah, that's a small change that could be easily changed too :)
601 2019-07-15T20:27:05  <sipa> but it's not like we need new parsing code; bech32 parsing is alreasdy generic
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603 2019-07-15T20:28:57  <sipa> elichai2: i suspect you're overestimating how much work it is to adapt all the structures with taproot
604 2019-07-15T20:28:58  <sipa> it's nontrivial of course
605 2019-07-15T20:29:16  <sipa> but i think hacking in via additional RPC arguments in various places won't be all that much simpler
606 2019-07-15T20:29:28  <elichai2> i'm just trying to figure out if I could make a PoC without while minimizing the areas of the code I'm touching, because I don't know most of the code yet
607 2019-07-15T20:29:33  <sipa> though it will touch a lot more different parts
608 2019-07-15T20:29:45  <elichai2> because if i'll start editing code all over i'll probably mess things up even more lol
609 2019-07-15T20:30:29  <elichai2> I understand that my PoC won't be close to optimal. and that's why I want it for now to be isolated into an RPC, and not doing all of the wallet support
610 2019-07-15T20:30:44  <sipa> so why do it in bitcoin core at all then?
611 2019-07-15T20:32:33  <elichai2> because I still think that manual psbt without descriptors is still useful? altough you're right that I could've done it in rust-bitcoin and it would probabaly been easier and more native to the code but in the end I do want to get to know bitcoin core's code better so I will be able to make optimal solutions to bitcoin in the future :)
612 2019-07-15T20:33:16  <sipa> well if you want to learn bitcoin core better (which i very much encourage you to!), i think it's better to focus on one piece at a time, but actually integrate it
613 2019-07-15T20:34:03  <sipa> for example, an RPC that takes a descriptor and a bunch of private keys, and signs with them, would be pretty generally useful
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615 2019-07-15T20:35:48  <sipa> and for the extensions to psbt... i think it's generally too early
616 2019-07-15T20:37:05  <elichai2> sipa: my hope is that if people start building things on top of taproot it will increase the chance of merging and activation sooner rather than later
617 2019-07-15T20:38:04  <elichai2> so why not start conversations around descriptors extensions, psbt extenstions, tools that build complex taproot trees, early integration into other wallets, ideas on how to use it to make cheaper transactions, etc.
618 2019-07-15T20:39:12  <elichai2> but I might be totally wrong
619 2019-07-15T20:39:26  <sipa> i don't know, it feels like unnecessary pressure
620 2019-07-15T20:39:32  <sipa> we first need to get agreement on a design
621 2019-07-15T20:40:15  <elichai2> maybe this will make more people interested in reading into taproot BIP and giving feedback?
622 2019-07-15T20:40:27  <sipa> i'm scared of people building things, and then discovering a major change in necessary, and then we end up with invested effort driving a "pfff please don't change the design anymore, we'll need to redo our code!", which is a really bad incentive
623 2019-07-15T20:40:33  <elichai2> but I agree that if the design will really change then maybe this will be a big waste of time
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625 2019-07-15T20:41:00  <sipa> at a high level, i think all of these things are easy... there is a lot of engineering work to go into making it actually work
626 2019-07-15T20:41:24  <sipa> but once taproot is finalized, i think the way to actually add it to psbt for example will be pretty straightforward
627 2019-07-15T20:41:26  <elichai2> sipa: now I understand your motivation for discouraging a lot of the things I said that are related to taproot :) thanks :)
628 2019-07-15T20:42:08  <elichai2> sipa: how much time it took between segwit activation and full support in core's wallet? I might really be off here but for me it felt a lot
629 2019-07-15T20:42:22  <sipa> elichai2: yeah, a lot, and i think that's perfectly fine :)
630 2019-07-15T20:42:33  <sipa> but i suspect with psbt and descriptors it will actually be a lot easier
631 2019-07-15T20:43:03  <elichai2> don't you think that bitcoin core wallet should be like a reference for other wallets? because in that case other wallets got it faster :/
632 2019-07-15T20:43:19  <sipa> i don't think so
633 2019-07-15T20:43:28  <sipa> we need reference code in the form of signing logic etc
634 2019-07-15T20:43:43  <sipa> and test vectors and examples
635 2019-07-15T20:44:00  <sipa> but the variety of things that can be done with taproot is so large... there really isn't a way to be reference for everything
636 2019-07-15T20:44:52  <sipa> actually, it was only from august 2017 to feb 2018
637 2019-07-15T20:45:12  <elichai2> as far as I could tell in the code psbt is basically a big wrapper(not trying to underestimate the power of it) around the already existing serializations of the classes/structs
638 2019-07-15T20:45:22  <sipa> yup
639 2019-07-15T20:45:42  <sipa> so what will be needed in terms of data structures is a "taproot derivation" record in signing providers
640 2019-07-15T20:45:50  <sipa> and descriptors that can fill that record
641 2019-07-15T20:45:57  <sipa> and a way for that record to be serialized in psbt
642 2019-07-15T20:46:03  <stevenroose> (nvm my question, btw :))
643 2019-07-15T20:46:08  <sipa> and signing logic to use it
644 2019-07-15T20:46:32  <elichai2> stevenroose: sorry for spamming it out 😓
645 2019-07-15T20:46:44  <sipa> stevenroose: delete the file :p
646 2019-07-15T20:47:47  <elichai2> sipa: I might need to look into the descriptors code, but basically I wrote a draft BIP for the PSBT extensions and wanted some PoC, so I thought adding manual RPC method for PSBT will be the easiest place to add those extensions without understanding all the structures in the wallet
647 2019-07-15T20:48:01  <elichai2> But you might be right and I need to look more into descriptors
648 2019-07-15T20:48:23  <elichai2> And my way isn't "the right way" in relation to how the current code is designed
649 2019-07-15T20:49:29  <sipa> i think for descriptors we'll probably want a fragment "tap(KEY,[[X,Y],[Z,[T,U]]])" kind of construction, where you give the root key and the leaves in some tree-encoding way
650 2019-07-15T20:49:40  <sipa> where the X/Y/Z/T/U are subexpressions
651 2019-07-15T20:49:52  <elichai2> and you need the script too
652 2019-07-15T20:50:07  <sipa> X,Y,Z,Z,T,U are subexpressions that represent scripts
653 2019-07-15T20:50:18  <sipa> they could be pk(), or multi(), ...
654 2019-07-15T20:50:32  <sipa> or once we have miniscript probably a whole bunch more things (i hope to publish more about that soon)
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656 2019-07-15T20:51:00  <elichai2> oh that's for the whole tree. not just the spending path
657 2019-07-15T20:51:09  <sipa> right
658 2019-07-15T20:51:34  <elichai2> I'll more need to look into the descriptors code, see how complicated is it
659 2019-07-15T20:51:53  <sipa> and that would then get converted into a "taproot key record" for the key path and for each leaf
660 2019-07-15T20:51:59  <sipa> in signingprovider/psbt
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666 2019-07-15T20:53:30  <sipa> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/script/descriptor.cpp
667 2019-07-15T20:54:11  <sipa> L149-170 is an interface for all the "key" expressions inside descriptors, with a number of implementations (pubkeys, descriptors, origin info)
668 2019-07-15T20:54:21  <sipa> s/descriptors/bip32/
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671 2019-07-15T20:55:01  <sipa> line 335-497 is a generic implementation of a "script" node in a descriptor
672 2019-07-15T20:55:24  <sipa> followed by implementations that add node specific logic (pk, pkh, sh, wpkh, wsh, multi, combi, addr, raw)
673 2019-07-15T20:55:55  <sipa> and after that is parsing (string to descriptor) and inference (script to descriptor) code
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689 2019-07-15T21:07:36  <elichai2> sipa: Thanks. I'll start looking around
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692 2019-07-15T21:36:43  <sipa> elichai2: cool
693 2019-07-15T21:37:14  <elichai2> (really, Thank You!)
694 2019-07-15T21:39:21  <sipa> really, yw :)
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699 2019-07-15T22:02:56  <jnewbery> sipa: you've mentioned this concern a couple of times:
700 2019-07-15T22:03:01  <jnewbery> > i'm scared of people building things, and then discovering a major change in necessary, and then we end up with invested effort driving a "pfff please don't change the design anymore, we'll need to redo our code!", which is a really bad incentive
701 2019-07-15T22:03:09  <jnewbery> I think there are a good reasons to start building PoC tools around the schnorr/taproot proposal now.
702 2019-07-15T22:03:21  <jnewbery> We'll get much better feedback on the design if people are actually writing code to use schnorr/taproot, rather than just trying to analyse it from a theoretical perspective.
703 2019-07-15T22:03:39  <jnewbery> And if those tools are made in a flexible way such that they can be adapted if there are minor design changes, then I don't think it's a waste of engineering time.
704 2019-07-15T22:03:52  <jnewbery> I can't think of what kind of major change to the proposal would cause the effort to be wasted.
705 2019-07-15T22:04:56  <sipa> jnewbery: of course
706 2019-07-15T22:05:10  <sipa> i don't mind PoC tools
707 2019-07-15T22:07:31  <sipa> but i also don't think there is any rush
708 2019-07-15T22:08:00  <sipa> and if your end goal is integrating things into bitcoin core, i suspect getting familiar with the code is probably the best way to spend time now
709 2019-07-15T22:10:50  <jnewbery> I don't think there's a rush, but I'd prefer for these tools to be built now so we can get feedback on the proposal. We're now at the stage that we're gathering feedback on the proposal, so it seems like a good use of time/energy to try to encourage that feedback.
710 2019-07-15T22:11:34  <jnewbery> and yes, getting familiar with the code is important, but I don't think those things are mutually exclusive in any way
711 2019-07-15T22:12:28  <sipa> i don't disagree
712 2019-07-15T22:15:15  <sipa> but do you think hacking in preliminary taproot code in RPCs where it shouldn't be needed is useful as a PoC/
713 2019-07-15T22:16:07  <sipa> it's not useful as reference code, and is unlikely to give a good idea of the complexity of real world implementations
714 2019-07-15T22:16:52  <sipa> if a PoC is your goal, i suspect there are better codebases to try implementing things in that core's
715 2019-07-15T22:17:18  <sipa> and if working towards an eventual production implementation in core, time seems better spent on the actual code rather than bypassing it
716 2019-07-15T22:17:52  <sipa> *than
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724 2019-07-15T23:03:28  <jnewbery> > do you think hacking in preliminary taproot code in RPCs where it shouldn't be needed is useful as a PoC?
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726 2019-07-15T23:04:17  <jnewbery> Possibly not
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