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 10 2020-02-28T00:37:39  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/1615043935ef...fe63d79eabf1
 11 2020-02-28T00:37:39  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 7644567 Dan Gershony: Add missing step in win deployment instructions
 12 2020-02-28T00:37:40  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fe63d79 fanquake: Merge #18212: doc: add missing step in win deployment instructions
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 15 2020-02-28T00:37:58  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #18212: doc: add missing step in win deployment instructions (master...patch-1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18212
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 42 2020-02-28T04:14:11  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #18218: [0.19] Further 0.19 backports (0.19...futher-0-19-backports) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18218
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 47 2020-02-28T04:32:56  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/fe63d79eabf1...eae48ec84c4d
 48 2020-02-28T04:32:57  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa45d60 MarcoFalke: test: Reduce unneeded whitelist permissions in tests
 49 2020-02-28T04:32:57  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master eae48ec fanquake: Merge #18209: test: Reduce unneeded whitelist permissions in tests
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 52 2020-02-28T04:33:16  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #18209: test: Reduce unneeded whitelist permissions in tests (master...2002-qaLimitWhitelist) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18209
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 65 2020-02-28T06:01:28  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] corollari opened pull request #18219: doc: Add warning against wallet.dat re-use (master...doc-wallet-copy) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18219
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115 2020-02-28T10:32:04  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Sjors opened pull request #18220: psbt: AnalyzePSBT set next to FINALIZER when all inputs need finalizing (master...2020/02/analyze_psbt) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18220
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154 2020-02-28T14:00:48  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] dangershony opened pull request #18223: Add new filer type p2wpkh to blockfilterindex (master...nutrino-p2wpkh-filters) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18223
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160 2020-02-28T14:34:26  <provoostenator> Random thought: why doesn't Git have SegWit, so you can pre-ACK a rebase? :-)
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171 2020-02-28T15:50:33  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 4 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/eae48ec84c4d...e5753fa4e808
172 2020-02-28T15:50:33  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master cbd345a Sebastian Falbesoner: test: test OP_CSV empty stack fail in feature_csv_activation.py
173 2020-02-28T15:50:34  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 09f706a Sebastian Falbesoner: test: check for OP_CSV empty stack fail reject reason in feature_csv_activ...
174 2020-02-28T15:50:35  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 5ffaf88 Sebastian Falbesoner: test: eliminiated magic numbers in feature_csv_activation.py
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177 2020-02-28T15:50:57  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #17921: test: test OP_CSV empty stack fail in feature_csv_activation.py (master...20200113-test-check-for-empty-stack-op_csv) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17921
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192 2020-02-28T16:28:21  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] instagibbs opened pull request #18224: Make AnalyzePSBT next role calculation simple, correct (master...analyze_psbt_role_simple) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18224
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196 2020-02-28T16:32:59  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Sjors closed pull request #18220: psbt: AnalyzePSBT set next to"finalizer" when all inputs need finalizing (master...2020/02/analyze_psbt) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18220
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219 2020-02-28T17:29:58  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #18225: util: Fail to parse empty string in ParseMoney (master...2002-utilMoney) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18225
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222 2020-02-28T17:31:28  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] instagibbs closed pull request #18214: wallet: Give slightly more understandable advice when needing -fallbackfee (master...fallback_msg) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18214
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228 2020-02-28T17:40:53  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/e5753fa4e808...73cfa070e5e4
229 2020-02-28T17:40:53  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master c72a11a Yancy Ribbens: test: Add cost_of_change parameter assertions to bnb_search_test
230 2020-02-28T17:40:54  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 73cfa07 MarcoFalke: Merge #18195: test: Add cost_of_change parameter assertions to bnb_search_...
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233 2020-02-28T17:41:13  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #18195: test: Add cost_of_change parameter assertions to bnb_search_test (master...add-coinselection-cost-of-change-test-cases) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18195
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242 2020-02-28T18:09:25  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/73cfa070e5e4...5ad80bec3f31
243 2020-02-28T18:09:25  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 3d9b41e fanquake: build: add --enable-determinism configure flag
244 2020-02-28T18:09:26  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 5ad80be Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #18135: build: add --enable-determinism configure flag
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247 2020-02-28T18:09:43  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #18135: build: add --enable-determinism configure flag (master...no_insert_timestamp_ld) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18135
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250 2020-02-28T18:11:04  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jkczyz closed pull request #17557: util: Refactor message hashing into a utility function (master...2019-11-hash-message) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17557
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264 2020-02-28T19:00:28  <achow101> wallet meeting?
265 2020-02-28T19:00:28  <meshcollider> Wallet meeting time, does anyone have topics?
266 2020-02-28T19:00:40  <meshcollider> #startmeeting
267 2020-02-28T19:00:40  <lightningbot> Meeting started Fri Feb 28 19:00:40 2020 UTC.  The chair is meshcollider. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
268 2020-02-28T19:00:40  <lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
269 2020-02-28T19:00:46  <meshcollider> #bitcoin-core-dev Wallet Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag provoostenator aj Chris_Stewart_5 dongcarl gwillen jamesob ken281221 ryanofsky gleb moneyball ariard digi_james amiti fjahr
270 2020-02-28T19:00:47  <meshcollider> jeremyrubin emilengler jonatack hebasto jb55
271 2020-02-28T19:00:51  <kanzure> hi
272 2020-02-28T19:00:54  <achow101> hi
273 2020-02-28T19:00:56  <provoostenator> hi
274 2020-02-28T19:01:08  <jonatack> hi
275 2020-02-28T19:01:37  <meshcollider> We have quite a few PRs very close to merge, so I'll go through them today
276 2020-02-28T19:01:49  <meshcollider> Topics?
277 2020-02-28T19:02:46  <achow101> descriptor normalization? (not really wallet though)
278 2020-02-28T19:02:50  <provoostenator> topic suggestion multisig wallet creation
279 2020-02-28T19:04:13  <achow101> multisig wallet creation?
280 2020-02-28T19:05:23  <provoostenator> #18142
281 2020-02-28T19:05:24  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/18142 | Coordinate multi-sig wallet · Issue #18142 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
282 2020-02-28T19:06:01  <provoostenator> I'm trying to come up with a (file) format that can be used to setup a multisig wallet.
283 2020-02-28T19:06:19  <provoostenator> So far I was able to implement something in JSON.
284 2020-02-28T19:06:35  <provoostenator> I plan to write a script that can convert HWI output to that format...
285 2020-02-28T19:06:39  <achow101> I feel like this is achievable using miniscript policies
286 2020-02-28T19:06:50  <achow101> the only issue being determining the threshold
287 2020-02-28T19:06:53  <provoostenator> Yes, that's what it uses
288 2020-02-28T19:07:09  <provoostenator> There is a global policy, thresh_m
289 2020-02-28T19:07:14  <provoostenator> And then each signer gives a sub policy
290 2020-02-28T19:07:25  <provoostenator> Which are then combined into a wallet policy
291 2020-02-28T19:07:55  <provoostenator> In my example it's the most trivial policy possible, because in practice most walelts can only do a regular multisig of pubkeys
292 2020-02-28T19:08:43  <provoostenator> But the format allows for as complex a (sub)policy as you want, if wallets understand it.
293 2020-02-28T19:09:03  <achow101> it would be preferable to be able to compose, and recursively compose, arbitrary miniscript policies
294 2020-02-28T19:09:26  <meshcollider> Isn't that what hes saying
295 2020-02-28T19:09:37  <provoostenator> Yes, minus the recursive bit
296 2020-02-28T19:09:54  <meshcollider> When would recursive composition be useful
297 2020-02-28T19:09:55  <sipa> miniscript policies can be composed, but the resulting (optimal) scripts aren't a composition of the constituent policies
298 2020-02-28T19:10:19  <sipa> provoostenator: what fo you need beyond miniscript policies in your format?
299 2020-02-28T19:10:31  <provoostenator> Correct, but for dumb wallets I'm thinking of a policy "compiler" that is extremely dumb
300 2020-02-28T19:10:47  <provoostenator> So that the end result can only be check_multisig
301 2020-02-28T19:11:08  <achow101> meshcollider: I was thinking something like participant_1 is really a multisig of participant_4 and 5
302 2020-02-28T19:11:18  <achow101> but that sub policy hasn't been constructed yet
303 2020-02-28T19:11:23  <provoostenator> Here's tesnet example: https://gist.github.com/Sjors/c7342cb27a7cf5f2d35469bb06eae4f4
304 2020-02-28T19:12:53  <achow101> what's not clear to me is why we need a file format?
305 2020-02-28T19:13:10  <provoostenator> Well, so far it's just a JSON format, doesn't ahve to be a file
306 2020-02-28T19:13:10  <achow101> can't you just pass around a miniscript policy, maybe with placeholders, and let people add things to it?
307 2020-02-28T19:13:16  <provoostenator> But it's something you can pass around
308 2020-02-28T19:13:28  <provoostenator> It contains sub policies for each signer
309 2020-02-28T19:13:30  <provoostenator> And keys
310 2020-02-28T19:13:49  <provoostenator> And optionally a friendly name and info about capabilities
311 2020-02-28T19:14:04  <provoostenator> One of the participants can collect that info and combine it.
312 2020-02-28T19:14:24  <provoostenator> And then figure out the overall policy, miniscript and descriptor. And then send that back to the participants
313 2020-02-28T19:15:14  <provoostenator> It would be nice if miniscript supported actual placeholders though
314 2020-02-28T19:15:34  <achow101> I guess what I'm asking is why can't you just pass around a single miniscript policy string that people modify
315 2020-02-28T19:15:36  <provoostenator> Then you can announce the overal policy _before_ collecting info from indiviual signers.
316 2020-02-28T19:16:09  <provoostenator> Oh I see, that's possible too, but it requires that participants actually can parse miniscript, which I'm not assuming
317 2020-02-28T19:16:21  *** jb55 has quit IRC
318 2020-02-28T19:16:45  <provoostenator> Simple string concatenation is enough to handle the format I have so far.
319 2020-02-28T19:16:46  <instagibbs> oh hi
320 2020-02-28T19:16:55  *** jb55 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
321 2020-02-28T19:17:01  <meshcollider> Is the assumption that all the participants are completely trustworh
322 2020-02-28T19:17:08  <meshcollider> Trustworthy*
323 2020-02-28T19:17:10  <achow101> but participants have to be able parse miniscript at the end anyways, no?
324 2020-02-28T19:17:24  <provoostenator> meshcollider: there's room for arbirary fields, so they don't have to be
325 2020-02-28T19:17:44  <achow101> you have to trust participants to not mess with other participant's policies
326 2020-02-28T19:17:59  <provoostenator> There's also room for e.g. musig related info, not something that would fit in a miniscript policy that you pass around
327 2020-02-28T19:18:17  <meshcollider> achow101: idk if that's an assumption we want to make?
328 2020-02-28T19:18:44  <instagibbs> meshcollider, sure seems like something an attacker might do
329 2020-02-28T19:19:04  <achow101> meshcollider: well at the end, you can verify whether you are still in the policy
330 2020-02-28T19:19:22  <achow101> and under what conditions your sub policy would be reached
331 2020-02-28T19:19:27  <achow101> that's the point of miniscript
332 2020-02-28T19:19:47  <sipa> provoostenator: the participants need to be able to reason about the policy of the final descriptor that comes out
333 2020-02-28T19:19:55  <sipa> miniscript enables that
334 2020-02-28T19:19:58  <provoostenator> You probably have to check the first receive address via some other channel to make sure everyone is looking at the same policy
335 2020-02-28T19:20:16  <sipa> without generic script.reasoning logic like that i don't think what you're trying is secure
336 2020-02-28T19:20:19  <provoostenator> Miniscript enables it in the general case.
337 2020-02-28T19:20:23  <achow101> provoostenator: but for musig, and taproot in general, I would expect there to be different miniscript things for that
338 2020-02-28T19:20:30  <provoostenator> But in the simple case you can still reason about thresh(2,pk(3442193e),pk(bd16bee5))
339 2020-02-28T19:20:41  <instagibbs> I think spelling out exactly what you're enabling and protecting against would help for your PoC
340 2020-02-28T19:20:41  <sipa> sure
341 2020-02-28T19:20:52  <provoostenator> I'm trying to make it useful pre-miniscript, but in a forward compatible format.
342 2020-02-28T19:21:23  <sipa> i suspect getting people to adopt a file format will be harder and slower than integration of miniscript :)
343 2020-02-28T19:21:35  <provoostenator> instagibbs: personally I'm happy if it can do m-of-n with devices that I initially trust
344 2020-02-28T19:21:46  <sipa> especially when its usefulness is extremely likited before that poijt in time
345 2020-02-28T19:21:46  <instagibbs> provoostenator, ok, that we can reason about with nothing too fancy :)
346 2020-02-28T19:21:59  <instagibbs> miniscript really does need network effects to be worth it
347 2020-02-28T19:22:03  <provoostenator> Yes, the ad hoc format used by ColdCard does the trick
348 2020-02-28T19:23:11  <instagibbs> meanwhile I think pressuring hww devs to support things like display xpub, register some sorta descriptor like thing, is the best thing to do
349 2020-02-28T19:23:27  *** Chris_Stewart_5 has quit IRC
350 2020-02-28T19:23:42  <meshcollider> True
351 2020-02-28T19:23:42  <instagibbs> gets you usable n-of-m at least
352 2020-02-28T19:23:43  <provoostenator> So ColdCard registers xpubs, I don't think any other hww does anything similar
353 2020-02-28T19:23:58  <instagibbs> provoostenator, indeed, btchip says it's on the roadmap(no convincing needed at least)
354 2020-02-28T19:24:08  <achow101> I would prefer people to just use miniscript and then compose policies within a miniscript policy itself, rather than a file format
355 2020-02-28T19:24:25  <provoostenator> This may be a chicken-egg thing where people want a standard first, but a standard is hard to develop without practical experience.
356 2020-02-28T19:24:51  <provoostenator> achow101: first thing we'd need for that is xpub & origin support in descriptors
357 2020-02-28T19:25:29  <provoostenator> And ideally placeholder support, so a signer knows where they can insert stuff
358 2020-02-28T19:25:33  <sipa> it's already there?
359 2020-02-28T19:25:44  <achow101> in miniscript you mean?
360 2020-02-28T19:25:44  <sipa> (xpub and origin support)
361 2020-02-28T19:25:51  <provoostenator> sipa on your site I could only add pk(fingerprint)
362 2020-02-28T19:25:53  *** belcher has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
363 2020-02-28T19:26:00  <provoostenator> Or you mean your PR?
364 2020-02-28T19:26:01  *** bitcoin-git has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
365 2020-02-28T19:26:01  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Empact opened pull request #18226: refactor: Consolidate unnecessary base58 interfaces (master...2020-02-base58) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18226
366 2020-02-28T19:26:12  *** bitcoin-git has left #bitcoin-core-dev
367 2020-02-28T19:26:40  <achow101> I expect that the existing xpub, origin, and general KEY expression stuff in descriptors will be in miniscript
368 2020-02-28T19:26:42  <sipa> provoostenator: ah you mean in miniscript
369 2020-02-28T19:26:53  <provoostenator> yes
370 2020-02-28T19:26:57  <sipa> the compiler just passes through whatever key expressions you use
371 2020-02-28T19:27:07  <sipa> into the descriptor outout
372 2020-02-28T19:27:12  <provoostenator> So e.g. wallet 1 starts and wants to invite 1 more wallet
373 2020-02-28T19:27:13  <sipa> it trats them as strings
374 2020-02-28T19:27:28  *** Emcy has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
375 2020-02-28T19:27:54  <provoostenator> Wallet 1 announces thresh_m(2, c_pk(xpub...),FREE_SPOT_FOR_YOU)
376 2020-02-28T19:28:09  <provoostenator> And then wallet 2 fills in that spot,
377 2020-02-28T19:29:08  <sipa> the hard part is letting wallets verify that the resulting script/descriptor includes the policy they want
378 2020-02-28T19:29:24  <sipa> which isn't implemented in my c++ miniscript code
379 2020-02-28T19:29:31  <sipa> rust-miniscript may
380 2020-02-28T19:29:52  <achow101> sipa: I believe rust-miniscript lets you "pull up" a miniscript to the policy
381 2020-02-28T19:29:55  <instagibbs> "they want" seems like another patch of thorns
382 2020-02-28T19:30:19  <achow101> andytoshi also said it was trivial to do so
383 2020-02-28T19:31:36  *** ghost43 has quit IRC
384 2020-02-28T19:32:43  <sipa> yeah, it is
385 2020-02-28T19:32:59  *** ghost43 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
386 2020-02-28T19:33:05  <instagibbs> not sure what "pull up" means exactly but I'll defer that to me actually learning miniscript
387 2020-02-28T19:33:22  <sipa> instagibbs: compiler goes from policy to miniscript
388 2020-02-28T19:33:40  <sipa> "pull up" means going the other direction
389 2020-02-28T19:33:47  <sipa> that step is easy
390 2020-02-28T19:33:54  <achow101> "decompile miniscript"
391 2020-02-28T19:33:55  <sipa> but then reasoning about the policy may not be
392 2020-02-28T19:34:08  <instagibbs> i see, you mean someone brings compiled miniscript, you can graft it in, sure
393 2020-02-28T19:34:15  <sipa> no
394 2020-02-28T19:34:35  <instagibbs> ohhh sorry misreading
395 2020-02-28T19:34:45  <instagibbs> way over-reading what achow said, ignore
396 2020-02-28T19:34:49  <sipa> it's just about: someome gives you a script, figure out what it "does", semantically
397 2020-02-28T19:35:01  <instagibbs> yes
398 2020-02-28T19:36:16  <sipa> like... someone "included" your policy in a compiled script
399 2020-02-28T19:36:20  <meshcollider> Because you don't only want to check your spending condition, you really need to check no other paths have been added that shouldn't be there
400 2020-02-28T19:36:27  <sipa> maybe they combined it with an and(X,false)
401 2020-02-28T19:36:56  <sipa> meshcollider: indeed
402 2020-02-28T19:37:19  <instagibbs> "should be" lots of worms in cans ;P
403 2020-02-28T19:37:43  <instagibbs> n-of-m is good or bad depending on who is in the set
404 2020-02-28T19:37:43  <sipa> or did they compile it into a ridiculously inefficient script?
405 2020-02-28T19:39:44  <sipa> i think what may be generically possible is where you have a super-policy super(A,B,C) that is agreed upon out of band (e.g. 2-of-3 multisig)
406 2020-02-28T19:39:56  <sipa> and then let participants fill in their own A, B C
407 2020-02-28T19:40:20  <sipa> the composability of policies means that you generally shouldn't care about what others' A B and C are
408 2020-02-28T19:40:30  <meshcollider> Isn't that what provoostenator did anyway
409 2020-02-28T19:40:38  <meshcollider> Well, limiting super = thresh
410 2020-02-28T19:40:39  *** vasild_ has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
411 2020-02-28T19:41:16  <instagibbs> Provided you're talking to the right folks gathering A,B,C, I think so :)
412 2020-02-28T19:41:37  <sipa> the hard part in this case is where does the super-policy come from
413 2020-02-28T19:41:44  <provoostenator> meshcollider: not limiting the policy, but even limiting the compiler
414 2020-02-28T19:42:14  <provoostenator> *not only
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417 2020-02-28T19:47:54  <meshcollider> Alright achow101 do you want to talk about descriptor normalisation now
418 2020-02-28T19:48:15  <achow101> sure
419 2020-02-28T19:48:25  <meshcollider> I think the multiwallet needs more thought out of meeting
420 2020-02-28T19:48:34  <meshcollider> Multisig wallet*
421 2020-02-28T19:48:50  <instagibbs> (topic for coredev)
422 2020-02-28T19:48:50  <achow101> we can add it to kanzure's list of discussion topics
423 2020-02-28T19:49:06  <kanzure> okay
424 2020-02-28T19:49:16  <achow101> I kind of tried to do this descriptor xpub normalization in #18163
425 2020-02-28T19:49:18  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/18163 | descriptors: Use xpub at last hardened step if possible by achow101 · Pull Request #18163 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
426 2020-02-28T19:49:53  <achow101> closed it in favor of the xpub cache, but I think it might still be useful to do
427 2020-02-28T19:50:46  <achow101> basically if we get a descriptor with a xprv and a bunch of hardened steps, then we can make an equivalent descriptor which has the xpub at the last hardened step and the hardened steps and that xprv become the origin info
428 2020-02-28T19:52:06  <achow101> we lose the ability to round trip such descriptors, but I think it's still useful to be able to do this for things like exports
429 2020-02-28T19:52:10  <provoostenator> That seemed sane to me
430 2020-02-28T19:53:10  <achow101> we can also go a step further and do it to all descriptors with xpubs, just derive as far as possible
431 2020-02-28T19:53:34  <achow101> it's all the same at the end, just might be confusing to users
432 2020-02-28T19:53:51  <meshcollider> Derive even the non-hardened steps and just have the  /* at the end?
433 2020-02-28T19:54:15  <achow101> yeah
434 2020-02-28T19:54:34  <provoostenator> I find hardened a more intuitive place to cut off
435 2020-02-28T19:54:51  <provoostenator> It also keeps the xpub in the expected place for BIP44/49/84 style descriptors
436 2020-02-28T19:54:57  <meshcollider> Yeah I don't think there's any point to doing work that anyone else could do anyway
437 2020-02-28T19:55:15  <achow101> it has the effect of making the xpub cache part of the descriptor
438 2020-02-28T19:55:28  <achow101> since in xpub cache, we derive as far as possible and cache that xpub
439 2020-02-28T19:55:49  <provoostenator> I think that cache policy should just be internal
440 2020-02-28T19:56:27  <meshcollider> Yep I can see maybe why xpriv/hardened -> xpub is useful but not other than that
441 2020-02-28T19:56:48  <achow101> less derivations to do
442 2020-02-28T19:57:45  <provoostenator> That seems like a tiny benefit compared to loading a wallet and expanding 1000 keys
443 2020-02-28T20:00:17  <achow101> so with just the hardened derivation, that's something people think we should still try?
444 2020-02-28T20:00:44  <achow101> I think the main concern is that we lose information
445 2020-02-28T20:01:16  <sipa> it's only human-relevant information
446 2020-02-28T20:01:30  <sipa> as the semantics of the normalized descriptor are the same as the original
447 2020-02-28T20:02:23  <achow101> right, but if getdescriptorinfo returned a normalized descriptor, that would probably confuse people
448 2020-02-28T20:02:24  <sipa> but i'm still hesitant to just always do it
449 2020-02-28T20:02:29  <sipa> agree
450 2020-02-28T20:02:43  <sipa> it seems unnecessary, except perhaps in certain opt-in cases
451 2020-02-28T20:03:27  <achow101> the main use is imports into our wallet, and exporting watch only to other wallets
452 2020-02-28T20:03:59  <sipa> but you could do it at export time?
453 2020-02-28T20:04:34  <achow101> it would require access to private keys
454 2020-02-28T20:04:39  <achow101> it'd be nice if it didn't
455 2020-02-28T20:04:47  <sipa> or to the xpub cache?
456 2020-02-28T20:05:11  <achow101> with the xpub cache, it would give the xpub at the end of derivation
457 2020-02-28T20:05:26  <sipa> which is just as good, no?
458 2020-02-28T20:05:34  <achow101> still confusing to users
459 2020-02-28T20:05:46  <sipa> not more so than an xpub in the middle?
460 2020-02-28T20:05:55  <achow101> and possibly to wallets that may try to interpret the derivation info to figure out change/not-change
461 2020-02-28T20:06:09  <provoostenator> Especially the latter
462 2020-02-28T20:06:13  <sipa> the origin info would still be there
463 2020-02-28T20:06:14  <achow101> (I suspect that would be something that wallets try to do)
464 2020-02-28T20:06:18  <sipa> which would have that information
465 2020-02-28T20:06:44  <provoostenator> E.g. with a ColdCard you register an xpub, which covers receive and change
466 2020-02-28T20:06:58  <provoostenator> So it would be confused by a desciptor that has the xpub 1 level down
467 2020-02-28T20:07:15  <provoostenator> Then again, you can't really export a single descriptor anyway
468 2020-02-28T20:07:41  <achow101> I suppose we can bring this up again once we get to allowing descriptor exports
469 2020-02-28T20:07:46  <sipa> yeah
470 2020-02-28T20:08:16  <provoostenator> I wouldn't mind being able to describe receive and change  in  single descriptor, but that's another can of worms.
471 2020-02-28T20:08:26  <sipa> yes :)
472 2020-02-28T20:08:32  <achow101> xpub cache covers what we need to do now, so we can think on this later :)
473 2020-02-28T20:08:39  *** bitcoin-git has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
474 2020-02-28T20:08:39  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/5ad80bec3f31...9aa8145bc024
475 2020-02-28T20:08:40  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 54be4e7 Sebastian Falbesoner: test: check specific reject reasons in feature_csv_activation.py
476 2020-02-28T20:08:41  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 9aa8145 MarcoFalke: Merge #17959: test: check specific reject reasons in feature_csv_activatio...
477 2020-02-28T20:08:42  *** bitcoin-git has left #bitcoin-core-dev
478 2020-02-28T20:09:00  <instagibbs> oh we're 8 minutes over
479 2020-02-28T20:09:03  *** bitcoin-git has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
480 2020-02-28T20:09:03  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #17959: test: check specific reject reasons in feature_csv_activation.py (master...20200118-test-check-reject-reasons-in-feature-csv-activation) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17959
481 2020-02-28T20:09:04  *** bitcoin-git has left #bitcoin-core-dev
482 2020-02-28T20:10:30  <achow101> any other topics?
483 2020-02-28T20:10:57  <instagibbs> PSBT GUI review: do it
484 2020-02-28T20:11:12  <gwillen> apropos of that actually instagibbs, I saw you commented about showing change addresses
485 2020-02-28T20:11:28  <gwillen> I am pretty fuzzy on the story of "safely detecting change addresses" in this setting
486 2020-02-28T20:11:48  <achow101> Change detection is always fuzzy
487 2020-02-28T20:11:50  <provoostenator> On the send dialog you can know which one is change
488 2020-02-28T20:11:59  <provoostenator> On the load PSBT I wouldn't bother for now.
489 2020-02-28T20:12:01  <instagibbs> in normal sends it ellides those outputs... but PSBT signing is not the typical case, in many cases
490 2020-02-28T20:12:10  <instagibbs> provoostenator, right
491 2020-02-28T20:12:11  <gwillen> yeah, my assumption was not to bother for signing, and to show all addresses
492 2020-02-28T20:12:37  <provoostenator> It's probably some property on rcp that you can look at, the normal confirm dialog knows.
493 2020-02-28T20:13:03  <sipa> you can show the net balance effect a transaction has on your wallet, independent of knowing what is change or not, right?
494 2020-02-28T20:13:14  <gwillen> not when signing, no wallet
495 2020-02-28T20:13:24  <achow101> no wallet?
496 2020-02-28T20:13:28  <sipa> ah, without wallet you can't even talk about the concept of change
497 2020-02-28T20:13:33  <instagibbs> it might be a dumb key store
498 2020-02-28T20:13:35  <instagibbs> achow101,
499 2020-02-28T20:13:37  <gwillen> well, hm, I guess I am assuming that in general, when signing offline, you are just a dumb key store, yeah
500 2020-02-28T20:13:57  <gwillen> you may not have the blockchain, and you may only have keys to some subpart of whatever inputs you're signing for
501 2020-02-28T20:14:09  <sipa> gwillen: well a sane key store (one that can verify what it's signing) must have a pre-registered descriptor set
502 2020-02-28T20:14:11  <achow101> For change detection, you should be able to just ask the wallet if a particular destination IsChange and do your change detection like that
503 2020-02-28T20:14:22  <achow101> but that assumes the PSBT belongs to that wallet
504 2020-02-28T20:14:24  <sipa> gwillen: if you don't have that, talking about balance or change is meaningless
505 2020-02-28T20:14:27  <gwillen> sipa: do we have a sane key store, though, in the sense
506 2020-02-28T20:14:35  <achow101> gwillen: we will soon(tm)
507 2020-02-28T20:14:47  <sipa> gwillen: well, our wallet is
508 2020-02-28T20:14:58  <gwillen> in particular, the case I am most interested in is signing for a multisig
509 2020-02-28T20:15:01  <provoostenator> Right, fun fact about the current keystore: getrawchange address wil give you an address from the receive chain
510 2020-02-28T20:15:20  <gwillen> in which case there is a lot more information needed before one could safely conclude that some output is "change"
511 2020-02-28T20:15:27  <sipa> my point is just that if you want to do signing without such knowledge (which is a totally reasonable thing to do in some cases), you must accept that that means there is no such thing as change detection and shouldn't bother
512 2020-02-28T20:15:32  <gwillen> *nods*
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514 2020-02-28T20:15:41  <instagibbs> gwillen, well, is today's wallet IsChange would fail for any multisig address
515 2020-02-28T20:15:44  <gwillen> anyway instagibbs this was apropos of your comment asking why we display the change
516 2020-02-28T20:15:50  <instagibbs> if its a descriptor wallet change-ness is stored
517 2020-02-28T20:15:58  <instagibbs> anyways, it's fine for now
518 2020-02-28T20:16:05  * sipa -> lunch
519 2020-02-28T20:16:05  <gwillen> the answer is that I'm assuming in almost any interesting case we can't tell
520 2020-02-28T20:16:17  <gwillen> and so there's no point in special-casing the boring cases where we can
521 2020-02-28T20:16:20  <instagibbs> gwillen, disagree I think?
522 2020-02-28T20:16:30  <achow101> gwillen: I don't think that's an assumption in descriptor wallets
523 2020-02-28T20:16:43  <achow101> since in descriptor wallets you import the descriptor and mark it as change or not
524 2020-02-28T20:16:44  <gwillen> well we don't have those yet, so
525 2020-02-28T20:16:51  <gwillen> when we have those I will revisit :-)
526 2020-02-28T20:17:06  <sipa> i don't see what descriptor wallets have to do with this, actually
527 2020-02-28T20:17:18  <sipa> either you have a wallet, and you can ask what it would consider change
528 2020-02-28T20:17:23  <sipa> or you don't
529 2020-02-28T20:17:31  <achow101> you can do the same change detection stuff now as you would in the future, it's exposed in the same way
530 2020-02-28T20:17:43  <achow101> we just won't detect multisig or funny script things as change
531 2020-02-28T20:17:52  <instagibbs> `IsChange()` works for random imports already AFAIK, you just can't put in keypool
532 2020-02-28T20:17:56  <meshcollider> Anyway I think let's end the official meeting
533 2020-02-28T20:17:59  <meshcollider> #endmeeting
534 2020-02-28T20:17:59  <lightningbot> Meeting ended Fri Feb 28 20:17:59 2020 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
535 2020-02-28T20:17:59  <lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-02-28-19.00.html
536 2020-02-28T20:17:59  <lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-02-28-19.00.txt
537 2020-02-28T20:17:59  <lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-02-28-19.00.log.html
538 2020-02-28T20:18:26  <instagibbs> i.e., importmulti, mark it as internal address, now it'll be marked as `IsChange` internally
539 2020-02-28T20:18:42  <gwillen> hmmmm, so if I have a Core wallet that I use offline, with a watchonly copy that I use online, with PSBT, change detection should actually Just Work
540 2020-02-28T20:18:53  <gwillen> well hm, though, with a normal Core wallet you do not have public derivation
541 2020-02-28T20:18:56  <instagibbs> obviously if you're thinking of a HD chain multisig it probably needs descriptor wallets to be ez
542 2020-02-28T20:18:57  <gwillen> so you can't meaningfully do this
543 2020-02-28T20:19:06  <instagibbs> right this only works with one-off keys
544 2020-02-28T20:19:08  <gwillen> I'm trying to think of a scenario where you can meaningfully do this
545 2020-02-28T20:19:17  <gwillen> and have it work without shenanigans
546 2020-02-28T20:19:33  <gwillen> well with one-off keys there is no such thing as change, unless you're reusing addresses
547 2020-02-28T20:20:05  <gwillen> unless you mean like, one-off exporting your keypool watchonly, and then doing it again manually each time you run out
548 2020-02-28T20:20:07  <achow101> gwillen: what I'm saying is that you should use IsChange and we will later refine what IsChange returns true for
549 2020-02-28T20:20:07  <instagibbs> yes there is, when manually creating tx
550 2020-02-28T20:20:14  <instagibbs> I agree it's not generally usable
551 2020-02-28T20:20:25  <gwillen> I am not going to use IsChange if there is not a single case where it actually works right now
552 2020-02-28T20:20:37  <gwillen> untested codepaths break
553 2020-02-28T20:20:37  <achow101> it will work for single key things
554 2020-02-28T20:20:47  <instagibbs> ^
555 2020-02-28T20:20:52  <gwillen> so far it appears to me that we have failed to produce a case where that would be useful
556 2020-02-28T20:21:09  <achow101> your standard single hardware wallet case
557 2020-02-28T20:21:15  <instagibbs> I literally tested your branch and was befuddled when i was confronted with this
558 2020-02-28T20:21:35  <achow101> using importmulti, I import a bunch of receive keys into the keypool, and a bunch of change keys
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560 2020-02-28T20:21:49  <achow101> when I do all the psbt things after signing, I look at the gui and it's showing me the change address
561 2020-02-28T20:21:50  <gwillen> you just manually import them, and then import again when you run out?
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563 2020-02-28T20:22:09  <achow101> IsChange would tell you that the change address is change because I had imported those into the change keypool
564 2020-02-28T20:22:10  <instagibbs> import 10k or whatever yes
565 2020-02-28T20:22:12  <achow101> there's your usecase
566 2020-02-28T20:22:12  <gwillen> I mean, I'm happy to support this if it is something that anybody would actually do
567 2020-02-28T20:22:16  <instagibbs> I do it!
568 2020-02-28T20:22:19  <gwillen> heh, ok
569 2020-02-28T20:22:20  <achow101> me too!
570 2020-02-28T20:22:25  <instagibbs> thanks <3
571 2020-02-28T20:22:43  <gwillen> do you object to still displaying the change, but marking it as change
572 2020-02-28T20:22:57  <achow101> that's fine with me
573 2020-02-28T20:23:00  <instagibbs> if it's marked change somehow it's fine
574 2020-02-28T20:23:03  <gwillen> :+1:
575 2020-02-28T20:23:15  <instagibbs> more info for a power user is better
576 2020-02-28T20:23:23  <gwillen> I will also add a note, if we do not detect change, explaining that change is a nebulous concept
577 2020-02-28T20:23:30  <gwillen> and think about whether I should also include it even if we do
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579 2020-02-28T20:23:54  <gwillen> (just explaining that anything we detect as change is change, but we may not detect all things a user would consider change)
580 2020-02-28T20:24:08  *** bitcoin-git has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
581 2020-02-28T20:24:09  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/9aa8145bc024...7a266a679d66
582 2020-02-28T20:24:09  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 7bf4ce4 Sebastian Falbesoner: refactor: test/bench: dedup SetupDummyInputs()
583 2020-02-28T20:24:10  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 7a266a6 MarcoFalke: Merge #18173: refactor: test/bench: deduplicate SetupDummyInputs()
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586 2020-02-28T20:24:26  <instagibbs> descriptor change should be super straight forward and recoverable in an offline setting
587 2020-02-28T20:24:29  *** bitcoin-git has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
588 2020-02-28T20:24:29  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #18173: refactor: test/bench: deduplicate SetupDummyInputs() (master...20200218-refactor-dedup-SetupDummyInputs) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18173
589 2020-02-28T20:24:30  *** bitcoin-git has left #bitcoin-core-dev
590 2020-02-28T20:24:46  <instagibbs> and transparent with respect to your work
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599 2020-02-28T21:09:34  *** bitcoin-git has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
600 2020-02-28T21:09:34  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #18228: test: Add missing syncwithvalidationinterfacequeue (master...2002-testFixRace) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18228
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612 2020-02-28T21:48:19  <andytoshi> sipa: achow101: the term is lift, not "pull up" :)
613 2020-02-28T21:48:41  <andytoshi> for going from a miniscript (or descriptor, or policy, or simplicity program, or whatever) to an abstract policy
614 2020-02-28T21:52:26  *** bitcoin-git has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
615 2020-02-28T21:52:27  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/7a266a679d66...1a51cd1ac5a0
616 2020-02-28T21:52:27  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master dc9305b fanquake: random: don't special case clock usage on macOS
617 2020-02-28T21:52:28  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 1a51cd1 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #17800: random: don't special case clock usage on macOS
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619 2020-02-28T21:52:56  *** bitcoin-git has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
620 2020-02-28T21:52:56  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #17800: random: don't special case clock usage on macOS (master...random_macos_clocks) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17800
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622 2020-02-28T21:53:16  <achow101> andytoshi: I think the term you're looking for is "elevator" :p
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624 2020-02-28T21:53:21  <andytoshi> loll
625 2020-02-28T21:53:48  <andytoshi> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lift_(mathematics) i think it's self-evident from this wiki page why the term lift is appropriate
626 2020-02-28T21:55:37  <fanquake> I reckon "Tor functor" is the most interesting term in that article.
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628 2020-02-28T21:56:41  <sipa> andytoshi: lift is one partof what we were talking about... not sure if we have a term for "analysing if i like a policy"
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630 2020-02-28T21:57:31  <sipa> and thanks... i forgot the term :)
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632 2020-02-28T22:03:01  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/1a51cd1ac5a0...eca4d8ef6aff
633 2020-02-28T22:03:02  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 16d6113 Jonas Schnelli: Refactor message transport packaging
634 2020-02-28T22:03:02  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master eca4d8e MarcoFalke: Merge #16562: Refactor message transport packaging
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637 2020-02-28T22:04:06  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #16562: Refactor message transport packaging (master...2019/06/net_refactor_2) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16562
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639 2020-02-28T22:16:00  <andytoshi> sipa: well, "analyzing like a policy" is done (in rust-bitcoin) by first lifting to a policy, then doing the analysis :)
640 2020-02-28T22:16:15  <andytoshi> because it would've been a looot of typing to implement all the analysis directly on the miniscript type
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643 2020-02-28T22:18:53  <sipa> andytoshi: obviously
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647 2020-02-28T22:34:01  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Empact closed pull request #18226: refactor: Consolidate unnecessary base58 interfaces (master...2020-02-base58) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18226
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652 2020-02-28T22:59:35  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Empact opened pull request #18229: Drop unused MACH time headers (master...2020-02-mach-headers) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18229
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