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  7 2020-03-12T00:17:27  <fanquake> sipa: can you block lucasborer1
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 75 2020-03-12T06:32:59  <wumpus> fanquake: done
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 77 2020-03-12T06:49:41  <fanquake> wumpus: thanks
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 88 2020-03-12T08:10:08  <vasild> kallewoof: I am going to test https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17994 today and I wonder if there is a better way than just start it to download blocks and try to observe how it behaves. Is there a way to test in a controlled environment where we feed out-of-order blocks to it deterministically?
 89 2020-03-12T08:11:39  <kallewoof> vasild: nice! you'll get out of order blocks for sure just by running it for a bit, is my experience. One thing you can do is put in some LogPrintfs when it hits the "finalize" case in case you wanna check that.
 90 2020-03-12T08:13:01  <vasild> ok
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104 2020-03-12T09:37:32  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/9cc7eba1b565...4c42a13205a1
105 2020-03-12T09:37:32  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 0ae42a1 Carl Dong: guix: Remove now-unnecessary gcc make flag
106 2020-03-12T09:37:33  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 4c42a13 fanquake: Merge #18320: guix: Remove now-unnecessary gcc make flag
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109 2020-03-12T09:38:01  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #18320: guix: Remove now-unnecessary gcc make flag (master...2020-03-fix-ssp-in-guix) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18320
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119 2020-03-12T10:26:43  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #18331: [WIP]  build: Use git archive as source tarball  (master...20200312-git-archive) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18331
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122 2020-03-12T10:30:48  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #17104: build: `make dist` uses `git archive` (master...build/archive-dist) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17104
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151 2020-03-12T12:31:30  <provoostenator> vasild: or you could write a regest for that, although we'd need more fine grained control of the regtest nodes p2p behavior
152 2020-03-12T12:32:13  <provoostenator> Not sure how far you can get with submitblock RPC.
153 2020-03-12T12:36:17  <vasild> provoostenator: I found out that https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/test/validation_block_tests.cpp#L151 is very close to what's needed to reproduce the out-of-order block feeding wrt #17994. I am now replacing its random multi-threaded call of ProcessNewBlock() with a signle-threaded deterministic out-of-order block supply. Lets see what happens...
154 2020-03-12T12:36:19  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/17994 | validation: flush undo files after last block write by kallewoof · Pull Request #17994 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
155 2020-03-12T12:38:18  <vasild> at least I will be able to observe the issue and its fix manually from the log, not sure if it will be possible to completely automate and add as a test. Is it possible to check if something was or was not printed in the log from a BOOST_AUTO_TEST_CASE()?
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160 2020-03-12T13:11:22  <jonatack> vasild: I don't know the unit tests suite well yet, and there may be better examples, but maybe have a look in
161 2020-03-12T13:11:39  <jonatack> getarg_tests.cpp
162 2020-03-12T13:12:09  <jonatack> notably the logargs test
163 2020-03-12T13:13:20  <jonatack> it performs checks on the debug log
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165 2020-03-12T13:16:33  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/4c42a13205a1...2737197ff39f
166 2020-03-12T13:16:33  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa2cf85 MarcoFalke: test: Fix race in p2p_segwit
167 2020-03-12T13:16:34  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2737197 MarcoFalke: Merge #18213: test: Fix race in p2p_segwit
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169 2020-03-12T13:16:49  <pinheadmz> anyone know why the testnet seeds list is just a few onion URLs? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/contrib/seeds/nodes_test.txt
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171 2020-03-12T13:16:52  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #18213: test: Fix race in p2p_segwit (master...2002-qaFixRaceSegwit) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18213
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174 2020-03-12T13:17:37  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Sjors closed pull request #17627: Suppress false positive warning about uninitialized entropy buffers (master...2019/11/buffers) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/17627
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178 2020-03-12T13:21:45  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/2737197ff39f...e2d36639ca87
179 2020-03-12T13:21:45  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master faf6f15 MarcoFalke: test: Add missing syncwithvalidationinterfacequeue
180 2020-03-12T13:21:46  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master e2d3663 MarcoFalke: Merge #18228: test: Add missing syncwithvalidationinterfacequeue
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183 2020-03-12T13:22:05  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #18228: test: Add missing syncwithvalidationinterfacequeue (master...2002-testFixRace) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18228
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186 2020-03-12T13:26:51  <wumpus> pinheadmz: no, no idea, I do know the list of testnet seed nodes is hardly ever updated, seems the last time was 2015 (and that was mostly a move) so it's likely hugely out of date too
187 2020-03-12T13:27:51  <wumpus> it probably doesn't make sense, e.g. wasteful, to hardcode a long list like we do for mainnet, but it would be good if someone checked the testnet list for staleness
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196 2020-03-12T14:25:36  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #18322: refactor: Add params to node context (master...2003-nodeParams) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18322
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198 2020-03-12T14:38:16  <hebasto> #18331 status is changed from WIP to 'ready to review' ;)
199 2020-03-12T14:38:17  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/18331 | build: Use git archive as source tarball by hebasto · Pull Request #18331 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
200 2020-03-12T14:42:52  <wumpus> I like that Drahtbot has an octopus in the rebase messages now <3
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204 2020-03-12T15:24:14  <pinheadmz> wumpus: only 1 of those testnet onions seems to be alive: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/13550#issuecomment-598248941
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206 2020-03-12T15:39:53  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #18333: build: Drop deprecated ACLOCAL_AMFLAGS variable (master...20200311-deprecated-amflags) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18333
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233 2020-03-12T17:28:53  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #18334: test: Add basic test for BIP 37 (master...2003-qa37) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18334
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236 2020-03-12T17:49:46  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] LarryRuane opened pull request #18335: bitcoin-cli: print useful error if bitcoind rpc work queue exceeded (master...cli-work-queue-error-msg) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18335
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244 2020-03-12T18:06:03  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #18336: script: Fix gitian-build.py --pull option (master...20200312-gitian-build-pull) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18336
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246 2020-03-12T18:06:22  <luke-jr> not sure if I will make the meeting today
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258 2020-03-12T18:45:04  <wumpus> I guess the main topic will be the upcoming feature freeze
259 2020-03-12T18:45:19  <wumpus> and what things to focus on to get in before that
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262 2020-03-12T19:00:11  <wumpus> #startmeeting
263 2020-03-12T19:00:11  <lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Mar 12 19:00:11 2020 UTC.  The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
264 2020-03-12T19:00:11  <lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
265 2020-03-12T19:00:19  <MarcoFalke> hi
266 2020-03-12T19:00:21  <wumpus> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag provoostenator aj Chris_Stewart_5 dongcarl gwillen jamesob ken281221 ryanofsky gleb moneyball kvaciral ariard digi_james amiti fjahr
267 2020-03-12T19:00:22  <sipsorcery>  hi
268 2020-03-12T19:00:23  <wumpus> jeremyrubin lightlike emilengler jonatack hebasto jb55
269 2020-03-12T19:00:25  <kanzure> hi
270 2020-03-12T19:00:26  <jkczyz> hi
271 2020-03-12T19:00:27  <emilengler> hi
272 2020-03-12T19:00:33  <fjahr> hi
273 2020-03-12T19:00:36  <promag> hi
274 2020-03-12T19:00:38  <jonatack> hello
275 2020-03-12T19:00:46  <provoostenator> hi (though distracted)
276 2020-03-12T19:00:48  *** AaronvanW has quit IRC
277 2020-03-12T19:00:57  <hebasto> hi
278 2020-03-12T19:01:01  <wumpus> one proposed topic in http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedmeetingtopics.txt : PPA URI (luke-jr) if he's here
279 2020-03-12T19:01:07  <achow101> hi
280 2020-03-12T19:01:28  <amiti> hi
281 2020-03-12T19:01:33  <kanzure> other topic: status of coredev.tech survey about meeting options, or any results, or when to expect as much
282 2020-03-12T19:01:42  <kanzure> (i don't have that information)
283 2020-03-12T19:01:50  <luke-jr> here for now
284 2020-03-12T19:01:53  <wumpus> good thing that it was decided to cancel coredev last week, because people from Europe aren't even allowed to travel to the US anymore
285 2020-03-12T19:02:29  <wumpus> #topic Features for 0.20
286 2020-03-12T19:02:49  <sipa>   hi
287 2020-03-12T19:02:50  <wumpus> as you might know, the feature freeze for 0.20 is in three days (the 15th)
288 2020-03-12T19:03:34  <wumpus> is there anything in progress, that only needs a bit of review to go, could still be ready before then?
289 2020-03-12T19:03:56  <hebasto> #16224 ?
290 2020-03-12T19:03:58  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16224 | gui: Bilingual GUI error messages by hebasto · Pull Request #16224 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
291 2020-03-12T19:04:30  <wumpus> hebasto: yes, good one
292 2020-03-12T19:04:39  <achow101> #17509?
293 2020-03-12T19:04:41  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/17509 | gui: save and load PSBT by Sjors · Pull Request #17509 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
294 2020-03-12T19:05:01  <achow101> I'd like #18204 too
295 2020-03-12T19:05:07  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/18204 | descriptors: improve descriptor cache and cache xpubs by achow101 · Pull Request #18204 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
296 2020-03-12T19:05:12  <emilengler> hebasto: Will review this PR tomorrow
297 2020-03-12T19:05:16  <provoostenator> ^ I'll try to conserve ACKs but can quickly address feedback if needed on
298 2020-03-12T19:05:29  <wumpus> that would be really nice to have
299 2020-03-12T19:07:23  <wumpus> achow101: is 18204 a feature or performance improvement?
300 2020-03-12T19:07:52  <wumpus> (I mean if the latter it could potentially go in after the feature freeze)
301 2020-03-12T19:08:07  <achow101> it can go in after the feature freeze I guess
302 2020-03-12T19:08:28  <achow101> it's really a performance improvement
303 2020-03-12T19:08:41  <sipa> i think it's a weak performance improvement, but also a necessity for descriptor wallets
304 2020-03-12T19:08:51  <wumpus> but it has quite some ACKs, I see, so might not need to wait that long anyhow
305 2020-03-12T19:09:06  <achow101> I just don't want it to get stuck for another few months with 2 acks
306 2020-03-12T19:09:47  <wumpus> it's always ok to remind me if something is almost ready for merge btw no need to wait until the meeting
307 2020-03-12T19:10:53  <wumpus> #topic PPA URI (luke-jr)
308 2020-03-12T19:11:32  <sipa> pinging BlueMatt
309 2020-03-12T19:11:47  <sipa> ah, he's going through airport security
310 2020-03-12T19:11:54  <cncr04s> remove that 3 second wait on the send button
311 2020-03-12T19:12:05  <sipa> ?
312 2020-03-12T19:12:05  <cncr04s> or at least add an option
313 2020-03-12T19:12:06  <wumpus> I'll let BlueMatt and luke-jr fight this out
314 2020-03-12T19:12:16  <MarcoFalke> I think the only question was whether to use deterministic builds or not
315 2020-03-12T19:12:28  <MarcoFalke> I can't see an argument for non-deterministic builds
316 2020-03-12T19:12:36  <sipa> and whether we want to support PPAs at all
317 2020-03-12T19:12:43  <wumpus> I think that's the main question
318 2020-03-12T19:12:55  <achow101> there's various documentation written by other people that refer to the ppa
319 2020-03-12T19:13:24  <sipa> if we can make the PPA deterministic (or even identical to the release builds), that would be ideal
320 2020-03-12T19:13:53  <wumpus> yes, definitely
321 2020-03-12T19:13:54  <luke-jr> I am maintaining the PPA
322 2020-03-12T19:14:03  <sipa> <BlueMatt> Note that ppa has two series’ of issues that releases did not: GUI issues that persisted for two releases and weren’t ever solved and the 32-bit test failures.
323 2020-03-12T19:14:13  <luke-jr> I don't really know why anyone else needs to be involved in this fact..
324 2020-03-12T19:14:25  <sipa> <BlueMatt> The second one especially scares me
325 2020-03-12T19:14:36  <wumpus> what do you need from us then?
326 2020-03-12T19:14:37  <luke-jr> the only question in my mind is whether it should remain at 'bitcoin' as some have suggested, or move to my own launchpad
327 2020-03-12T19:14:37  <MarcoFalke> That was the gcc compiler bug
328 2020-03-12T19:14:54  <sipa> <BlueMatt> But if people want it, it should be maintained as a part of the packaging repo
329 2020-03-12T19:15:10  <achow101> I think it should remain at 'bitcoin' as that's where a bunch of docs that mention the ppa point to
330 2020-03-12T19:15:15  *** AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
331 2020-03-12T19:15:29  <luke-jr> BlueMatt seems to not only want to stop maitnaining it, but also suppress others from doing so. hence the meeting topic
332 2020-03-12T19:15:50  *** luke-jr has quit IRC
333 2020-03-12T19:16:01  <MarcoFalke> I think we shouldn't offer software that is impossible to audit
334 2020-03-12T19:16:37  <MarcoFalke> determinisitic builds in the ppa are fine, though
335 2020-03-12T19:16:37  <wumpus> well the "bitcoin" PPA is his so as for maintining that that's his decision, if you maintain youre own somewhere else that's fine, but we likely won't link to it
336 2020-03-12T19:16:44  *** luke-jr has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
337 2020-03-12T19:16:57  <wumpus> (we never even linked from the repo to his ppa either afaik)
338 2020-03-12T19:17:22  <sipa> bitcoincore
339 2020-03-12T19:17:32  <achow101> wumpus: the ppa has been linked to before from both our repo and bitcoincore.org. those were removed, but it has been "official"
340 2020-03-12T19:17:47  <sipa> bitcoincore.org or bitcoin.org linked to it as a way of installing
341 2020-03-12T19:18:01  <MarcoFalke> Yes, I remember removing that link
342 2020-03-12T19:18:05  <wumpus> achow101: I think the ppa was only linked as a means to install bdb4
343 2020-03-12T19:18:16  <wumpus> oh okay
344 2020-03-12T19:19:33  <MarcoFalke> I think there is no one objecting a ppa that wraps our normal release builds
345 2020-03-12T19:19:45  <wumpus> like the snap does, right?
346 2020-03-12T19:20:07  <MarcoFalke> jup
347 2020-03-12T19:20:29  <MarcoFalke> But some people don't like the snap, because it doesn't install it in the "classic" location etc
348 2020-03-12T19:20:57  <luke-jr> … how much of that made it :/
349 2020-03-12T19:21:09  <luke-jr> Canonical is ultimately responsible for the PPA builds
350 2020-03-12T19:21:09  <sipa> it's also not what you'd get by building from source and knstalling
351 2020-03-12T19:21:22  <luke-jr> the gitian builds are terrible; they have a purpose, sure, but they're not even close to what users ideally would use
352 2020-03-12T19:21:24  <wumpus> luke-jr: your last message was "BlueMatt seems to not only want to stop maitnaining it, but also suppress others from doing so. hence the meeting topic"
353 2020-03-12T19:21:25  <luke-jr> the PPA is built by the OS vendor, and produces binaries specifically for the OS
354 2020-03-12T19:21:44  <luke-jr> wumpus: after that was [19:16:12] <luke-jr> so I guess the questions are 1) do we want to keep the PPA at the old URI, and 2) can we satisfy BlueMatt to allow that?
355 2020-03-12T19:21:49  <wumpus> make the gitian builds less horrible then
356 2020-03-12T19:21:59  <luke-jr> wumpus: that's incompatible with the goal of them
357 2020-03-12T19:22:03  <wumpus> it's what everything is based on and the only auditable one
358 2020-03-12T19:22:13  <luke-jr> wumpus: gitian builds are intended to run anywhere, but that's incompatible with being targetted to a specific distro
359 2020-03-12T19:22:39  <achow101> luke-jr: how so? something that runs anywhere should also run on a specific distro
360 2020-03-12T19:22:46  * dongcarl is so confused
361 2020-03-12T19:22:49  <MarcoFalke> agree with achow101
362 2020-03-12T19:22:57  <sipa> luke-jr: just because of UI theming etc?
363 2020-03-12T19:22:58  <luke-jr> achow101: ideally, binaries should dynamic link to system libraries for ~everything
364 2020-03-12T19:23:01  <wumpus> things like GUI costomization/integration I guess
365 2020-03-12T19:23:10  <luke-jr> sipa: that's a symptom
366 2020-03-12T19:23:26  <wumpus> not that that ever worked well for the PPA
367 2020-03-12T19:23:37  <wumpus> we had more UI issues with the PPA than ever with the gitian builds
368 2020-03-12T19:23:43  <sipa> seema like a small price to pay for auditabke builds
369 2020-03-12T19:23:47  <achow101> luke-jr: but we don't necessarily support the specific system libraries that may be installed
370 2020-03-12T19:23:50  <sipa> sorry, car tyoing
371 2020-03-12T19:23:50  <luke-jr> nobody is suggesting removing the gitian option
372 2020-03-12T19:23:51  <achow101> there may be version differences, etc.
373 2020-03-12T19:23:58  <luke-jr> achow101: we do
374 2020-03-12T19:24:03  <wumpus> although at least the crazyness with ubuntu unity is gone now
375 2020-03-12T19:24:05  <luke-jr> achow101: the preferred install is from source
376 2020-03-12T19:24:35  <luke-jr> achow101: (and PPAs don't support distros without the required versions)
377 2020-03-12T19:25:14  <luke-jr> logical order of preference, for an Ubuntu user, is build-from-source > PPA > gitian
378 2020-03-12T19:25:23  <wumpus> but I agree with sipa, deterministic builds are worth a little bit of GUI integration annoyance
379 2020-03-12T19:25:29  <MarcoFalke> If someone really wants to use the system libs, why can't they build from source?
380 2020-03-12T19:25:37  <luke-jr> it might be nice if we could deterministically make the PPA debs, but Launchpad doesn't support that
381 2020-03-12T19:25:47  <achow101> if a distro version lacks the requisite system libs, gitian would still work there, no? I think that's a good thing
382 2020-03-12T19:25:49  <luke-jr> MarcoFalke: many users don't know how, or don't want to spend the time
383 2020-03-12T19:25:50  <dongcarl> Very naive thought: is it possible to have 2 PPAs, 1 for gitian built binaries, 1 for specifically OS-integrated?
384 2020-03-12T19:25:57  <luke-jr> achow101: absolutely
385 2020-03-12T19:26:05  <MarcoFalke> dongcarl: I'd support that
386 2020-03-12T19:26:08  <luke-jr> achow101: PPAs are not a replacement for gitian, they are an alternative for certain users
387 2020-03-12T19:26:17  <luke-jr> dongcarl: should be
388 2020-03-12T19:26:24  <MarcoFalke> bitcoin/bitcoin would be deterministic and luke-jr/bitcoin is built with system libs
389 2020-03-12T19:26:25  <luke-jr> dongcarl: sounds like a good idea, even
390 2020-03-12T19:26:33  <luke-jr> MarcoFalke: that seems backward
391 2020-03-12T19:26:46  <luke-jr> bitcoin/bitcoin has always been system libs
392 2020-03-12T19:27:00  <sipa> luke-jr: you seem to be the only one arguing for system libs
393 2020-03-12T19:27:14  <luke-jr> sipa: so?
394 2020-03-12T19:27:17  <achow101> I think anything "official" should only be determinisitic
395 2020-03-12T19:27:22  <MarcoFalke> agree
396 2020-03-12T19:27:23  <sipa> agree
397 2020-03-12T19:27:24  <wumpus> achow101: +1
398 2020-03-12T19:28:01  <dongcarl> agree
399 2020-03-12T19:28:12  <fanquake> +1
400 2020-03-12T19:28:13  <luke-jr> achow101: why?
401 2020-03-12T19:28:20  <luke-jr> Distro-built is equivalent security
402 2020-03-12T19:28:31  <luke-jr> if your distro is compromised, a gitian build won't help you
403 2020-03-12T19:28:36  <wumpus> because it's the only one we can vouch for based on the sha256 hashes
404 2020-03-12T19:28:58  <MarcoFalke> luke-jr: We are talking about the ppa infrastructure being compromised, not the normal package build infra
405 2020-03-12T19:29:07  <luke-jr> MarcoFalke: isn't it the same?
406 2020-03-12T19:29:18  <MarcoFalke> I hope for Ubuntu that they are different, at least different datacenters
407 2020-03-12T19:29:34  <sipa> MarcoFalke: i doubt that
408 2020-03-12T19:29:45  <wumpus> so I think we've pretty much reached an agreement here, any other topics?
409 2020-03-12T19:29:47  <luke-jr> anyway, how about adding a disclaimer to the effect of "These are built by Canonical, not the Bitcoin Core project"?
410 2020-03-12T19:29:48  <achow101> luke-jr: how is it the same?
411 2020-03-12T19:30:01  <luke-jr> achow101: PPAs are built by Canonical
412 2020-03-12T19:30:12  <sipa> luke-jr: and maintained by the PPA maintainer
413 2020-03-12T19:30:33  <wumpus> yes but their build infrastructure runs arbitrary builds of arbitrary software, in the PPA case, so it's not that far fetched it could be compromised
414 2020-03-12T19:30:39  <luke-jr> sipa: just like the snaps are..
415 2020-03-12T19:30:56  <MarcoFalke> luke-jr: The snap you can check against the signed hash
416 2020-03-12T19:31:11  <luke-jr> MarcoFalke: our website says you can't last I checked
417 2020-03-12T19:31:13  <wumpus> right, the snap packages the gitian-built executables so you can verify them in the same way
418 2020-03-12T19:31:27  <MarcoFalke> luke-jr: I coldn't find a cross-platform way to do it
419 2020-03-12T19:31:45  <MarcoFalke> But on my machine it works last time I tried
420 2020-03-12T19:31:53  <wumpus> this would also be true for a PPA that packages the gitian-built binaries
421 2020-03-12T19:32:22  <jonatack> wumpus: I am not sure the blockers are a topic this week, but FWIW it looks like #16426 is currently replaced by #17954
422 2020-03-12T19:32:26  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16426 | Reverse cs_main, cs_wallet lock order and reduce cs_main locking by ariard · Pull Request #16426 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
423 2020-03-12T19:32:29  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/17954 | wallet: Remove calls to Chain::Lock methods by ryanofsky · Pull Request #17954 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
424 2020-03-12T19:32:44  <luke-jr> MarcoFalke: it verifies the entire snap, not just the chosen binaries installed?
425 2020-03-12T19:32:45  <jonatack> which, by mutual agreement of the PR authors, apparently should be merged in first
426 2020-03-12T19:33:03  <wumpus> jonatack: I've forgone blockers because of focusing on things that need to go in before the feature freeze which is imminent, but sure I'll swap them
427 2020-03-12T19:33:05  <luke-jr> I'm not entirely sure what argument sipa is trying to make..
428 2020-03-12T19:33:20  <MarcoFalke> luke-jr: Of course you'd still have to trust the snapd
429 2020-03-12T19:33:30  <luke-jr> there is no way I could as maintainer compromise the PPA without it being publicly visible
430 2020-03-12T19:34:31  <achow101> but it's possible for canonical to compromise it invisibly
431 2020-03-12T19:34:37  <luke-jr> achow101: absolutely.
432 2020-03-12T19:34:42  <luke-jr> just like they can compromise the OS
433 2020-03-12T19:34:52  <luke-jr> in which case gitian does no good to prevent it
434 2020-03-12T19:35:03  *** rjected has quit IRC
435 2020-03-12T19:35:54  <achow101> but at least users can verify that the ppa was not compromised with gitian
436 2020-03-12T19:36:03  <hebasto> are any estimation of a ppa share among all users?
437 2020-03-12T19:36:06  <achow101> and IIRC, PPAs can still be used on ubuntu derivatives
438 2020-03-12T19:36:14  <achow101> and other distros which are not necessarily canonical
439 2020-03-12T19:36:19  <luke-jr> hebasto: very few have noticed the URI changed
440 2020-03-12T19:36:30  <sipa> luke-jr: it didn't cba ge
441 2020-03-12T19:36:37  <sipa> it was discontinued
442 2020-03-12T19:36:47  <luke-jr> sipa: no, I am still maintaining it
443 2020-03-12T19:36:47  <sipa> you have your own PPA
444 2020-03-12T19:37:32  <luke-jr> hebasto: 2019-09, there were still around 8000 users of the PPA at bitcoin/bitcoin
445 2020-03-12T19:37:53  <wumpus> so we already discussed a compromise acceptable with most people here (two PPAs), I'm not sure it makes sense to continue arguing this
446 2020-03-12T19:37:56  <luke-jr> who are now stuck on 0.18.0 until they switch to the new PPA
447 2020-03-12T19:38:40  <luke-jr> wumpus: anyone can make a 2nd PPA, but I'm not sure there's a need with the snap doing the gitian binaries already
448 2020-03-12T19:38:43  <sipa> maybe we should, until we resolve this, push an update to the PPA that installs a binary that just prints "this is not maintained, see page X"
449 2020-03-12T19:38:56  <luke-jr> sipa: or at least deletes the binary
450 2020-03-12T19:39:02  <sipa> right
451 2020-03-12T19:39:29  <sipa> i agree there are probably people stuck at 0.18 by not noticing the ppa page that says it's not maintained
452 2020-03-12T19:39:30  <luke-jr> maybe less invasive to patch 0.18.0 with a message, but.. not sure I like the idea of doing a known-vulnerable "release"
453 2020-03-12T19:39:31  <wumpus> at least make sure it doesn't delete the wallet ...
454 2020-03-12T19:39:55  <sipa> wumpus: i don't think system installs can delete user files
455 2020-03-12T19:40:18  <wumpus> sipa: I think that was a risk wit hthe snap at some point
456 2020-03-12T19:40:22  <luke-jr> I guess that's one potentially scary thing about Snaps
457 2020-03-12T19:40:24  <luke-jr> yeah
458 2020-03-12T19:40:31  <sipa> wumpus: i know nothing about snap
459 2020-03-12T19:40:39  <luke-jr> sipa: it's basically a chroot AIUI
460 2020-03-12T19:40:51  *** vasild_ has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
461 2020-03-12T19:40:58  <wumpus> but yes unintalling a deb shouldn't remove user files (or even system configuration files without --purge)
462 2020-03-12T19:41:16  <MarcoFalke> Snap creates a snapshot of your wallet on uninstall
463 2020-03-12T19:41:32  <sipa> MarcoFalke: scary
464 2020-03-12T19:41:35  *** dr-orlovsky has quit IRC
465 2020-03-12T19:41:37  <luke-jr> I suppose that might be a reason to support a second gitian-binary PPA
466 2020-03-12T19:41:59  <MarcoFalke> sipa: Less scary than deleting it
467 2020-03-12T19:42:07  <sipa> fair
468 2020-03-12T19:42:13  <luke-jr> back to the original topic though, bitcoin/bitcoin seems like a bad URI IMO
469 2020-03-12T19:42:25  <luke-jr> bumping it with a move message seems like a good solution
470 2020-03-12T19:42:35  <luke-jr> and that can refer to the two new PPAs with clarification of distinction
471 2020-03-12T19:42:36  <luke-jr> ?
472 2020-03-12T19:43:19  <luke-jr> could be luke-jr/bitcoincore & luke-jr/bitcoincore-deterministic, or bitcoincore/bitcoincore-{system,deterministic} or something along those lines?
473 2020-03-12T19:43:43  <luke-jr> (not promising I'll make the gitian binary PPA - just throwing out ideas for discussion)
474 2020-03-12T19:43:43  *** vasild has quit IRC
475 2020-03-12T19:43:44  *** vasild_ is now known as vasild
476 2020-03-12T19:44:02  <luke-jr> advantage of the former is that it's obvious who maintains it; but the latter will work even if multiple people or maintainers change
477 2020-03-12T19:44:22  <achow101> I think we have to keep bitcoin/bitcoin just to keep existing docs working and not confusing existing users further
478 2020-03-12T19:44:28  <luke-jr> downside of the latter is it implies the project is responsible for it, which seems undesirable
479 2020-03-12T19:45:06  <wumpus> if there's two PPAs then docs have to be updated anyway
480 2020-03-12T19:45:09  <luke-jr> achow101: currently only BlueMatt has a monopoly on the 'bitcoin' name
481 2020-03-12T19:45:22  <wumpus> WITH documentation on what the choice is and why
482 2020-03-12T19:45:44  <luke-jr> even providing a notice-bump on the old PPA will require BlueMatt's cooperation
483 2020-03-12T19:47:13  <MarcoFalke> In launchpad it is possible to change the email address to something@bitcoincore.org, so that whoever has access to that can reset it
484 2020-03-12T19:47:27  <MarcoFalke> That is how I set up the snap
485 2020-03-12T19:49:02  <luke-jr> MarcoFalke: I don't know how BlueMatt setup the Launchpad stuff - I suspect the account is his personal account, and ~bitcoin is just a team with only him
486 2020-03-12T19:49:11  <luke-jr> would be nice if we could come to some agreement here to present to BlueMatt.. maybe "two new PPAs, and bump bitcoin/bitcoin with a notice"?
487 2020-03-12T19:49:51  <luke-jr> actually, notice should mention the gitian builds and Snap too for completeness IMO
488 2020-03-12T19:51:14  <wumpus> yes +1 with adding a notice to bitcoin/bitcoin at least, no matter if there's any new PPAs
489 2020-03-12T19:52:01  <luke-jr> it would be IMO absurd to say that BlueMatt is allowed to maintain a PPA and I am not
490 2020-03-12T19:52:55  <luke-jr> (which is what would be implied by refusing to tell users of the new URI)
491 2020-03-12T19:52:56  <wumpus> well we all think an 'official' PPA should be built from the gitian-built binaries, and you disagree with that, so that's not entirely unexpected
492 2020-03-12T19:53:20  <luke-jr> wumpus: it never has been
493 2020-03-12T19:53:21  <ryanofsky> does PPA require a single maintainer? with snaps we have a github packaging repository that gets normal review and a something@bitcoincore.org owner like marco mentioned
494 2020-03-12T19:53:40  <luke-jr> ryanofsky: the PPA stuff is in the same repo
495 2020-03-12T19:54:01  <luke-jr> ryanofsky: I have a PR open for the gitian YML that submits it to Canonical, but nobody seem to care to review it
496 2020-03-12T19:54:49  <wumpus> that's another point to simply package the gitain-built binaries; it doens't require as much maintenance or separate testing
497 2020-03-12T19:54:49  <ryanofsky> oh, well it seems kind of important to get that merged so we can have multiple maintainers
498 2020-03-12T19:54:53  <MarcoFalke> luke-jr: It seems to be pending on the further steps we take
499 2020-03-12T19:55:18  <luke-jr> ryanofsky: I wasn't aware anyone else was interested ;)
500 2020-03-12T19:56:10  <luke-jr> MarcoFalke: ultimately, it's a question of whether someone is trying to dictate to users how they use Core, or let them make an informed decision
501 2020-03-12T19:57:21  <luke-jr> it'd be one thing if nobody was willing to maintain the PPA at all; it's another to try to stop someone
502 2020-03-12T19:57:59  <wumpus> well you're maintaining it, we're definitely not able to stop you doing that
503 2020-03-12T19:58:28  <wumpus> or even interested in doing so
504 2020-03-12T19:58:42  <MarcoFalke> Filed an issue here: https://github.com/bitcoin-core/packaging/issues/36
505 2020-03-12T19:58:43  <luke-jr> wumpus: right, but it's also inappropriate to suddenly pretend it doesn't exist, or block users from finding it
506 2020-03-12T19:59:02  <wumpus> the point is *if* you want 'official' recognition for it, you'll also have to have other people agree with you how to do things
507 2020-03-12T19:59:23  <wumpus> if you do it your own way in your own ppa, fine, topic closed :)
508 2020-03-12T19:59:37  <wumpus> #endmeeting
509 2020-03-12T19:59:37  <lightningbot> Meeting ended Thu Mar 12 19:59:37 2020 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
510 2020-03-12T19:59:37  <lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-03-12-19.00.html
511 2020-03-12T19:59:37  <lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-03-12-19.00.txt
512 2020-03-12T19:59:37  <lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-03-12-19.00.log.html
513 2020-03-12T19:59:37  <luke-jr> this is the same way it's always been, and the way these users are used to it
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515 2020-03-12T19:59:57  <hebasto> luke-jr: what is "AIUI" you referred to? (19:40:39 UTC)
516 2020-03-12T20:00:04  <luke-jr> As I Understand It
517 2020-03-12T20:00:16  <hebasto> thanks ;)
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519 2020-03-12T20:01:13  <luke-jr> wumpus: deceiving users into thinking they must switch to gitian-derived binaries that aren't tailored to their OS, is the opposite extreme from 'official' recognition
520 2020-03-12T20:01:23  <wumpus> it's the way things were done but we realized that it was not a good idea
521 2020-03-12T20:02:40  <wumpus> e.g. due to unique bugs in the ppa build
522 2020-03-12T20:02:45  <luke-jr> so because you think it isn't a good idea, everyone who disagrees is censored?
523 2020-03-12T20:03:21  <wumpus> what, do you feel censored?
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525 2020-03-12T20:03:46  <luke-jr> wumpus: if there is an intentional effort to deceive users into not knowing they can continue to use a PPA, that seems to fit
526 2020-03-12T20:03:50  <wumpus> you were allowed to monopolize the entire meeting
527 2020-03-12T20:04:15  <wumpus> I don't think we could give you a bigger platform for your opinions if we wanted
528 2020-03-12T20:04:20  <wumpus> that doesn't mean we have to agree with it
529 2020-03-12T20:04:32  <luke-jr> meetings are between devs; I doubt many users read it
530 2020-03-12T20:04:41  <luke-jr> well, many probably do, but many do not
531 2020-03-12T20:06:28  * luke-jr wonders if plotting node versions over time would reveal much about how many are 'stuck' on 0.18.0
532 2020-03-12T20:06:39  <hebasto> ryanofsky: mind looking into #17813 discussion about default configure options? Will appreciate your opinion.
533 2020-03-12T20:06:40  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/17813 | build: --with-gui configure option without argument should warn if Qt not found · Issue #17813 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
534 2020-03-12T20:07:41  <ryanofsky> i looked briefly, it seemed like what carl suggested there was the obvious thing to do, not sure if it is difficult to implement. can comment though
535 2020-03-12T20:08:05  <hebasto> ryanofsky: thanks!
536 2020-03-12T20:09:20  <hebasto> ryanofsky: do you think the help string is clear?
537 2020-03-12T20:11:57  <ryanofsky> current one from issue description seems unclear in the way you suggested
538 2020-03-12T20:12:33  <hebasto> ok
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543 2020-03-12T21:04:09  <BlueMatt> luke-jr: hey, sorry I missed the meeting, it totally didnt cross my mind that I'd be going through tsa during it :(
544 2020-03-12T21:07:17  <BlueMatt> sounds like the conclusion is "needs to be gitian built, cause no one disagrees with that, but everyone feels somewhat uncomfortable with it being anything else"
545 2020-03-12T21:09:15  *** jb55 has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
546 2020-03-12T21:11:17  <BlueMatt> which I'm def happy with (been saying it for literally years) - are you interested in rewriting the build scripts luke-jr or is someone else gonna?
547 2020-03-12T21:17:36  *** sirkitree has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
548 2020-03-12T21:35:26  <luke-jr> BlueMatt: I disagree with only gitian static binaries
549 2020-03-12T21:35:30  <luke-jr> the conclusion was both options
550 2020-03-12T21:35:50  <luke-jr> and changing bitcoin/bitcoin to a notice of some sort explaining the upgrade paths
551 2020-03-12T21:35:55  <luke-jr> are you okay with that?
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559 2020-03-12T21:56:24  <BlueMatt> luke-jr: the thing already says its unmaintained. I'll clarify to point out that it is not official and that those who want something more officially maintained they should followup on the packaging issue.
560 2020-03-12T21:56:37  <BlueMatt> note that I've been complaining about the ppa for years, so this should be a surprise to no one.
561 2020-03-12T21:56:51  <BlueMatt> and have been indicating that it needs to be gitian-binaries for years
562 2020-03-12T21:57:53  <luke-jr> BlueMatt: PPA users will probably never even look at that page
563 2020-03-12T21:58:01  <sipa> BlueMatt: i think one issue that isn't addressed is that plenty of existing PPA installs will never see that page
564 2020-03-12T21:58:22  <sipa> so an idea would be to push an update that removes the binary at least, or even better, one that prints a notice
565 2020-03-12T21:58:23  <BlueMatt> right, I dunno what to do there? I can delete the packages but anyone on recentish ubuntu releases will fail to install anyway
566 2020-03-12T21:58:25  <luke-jr> BlueMatt: it absolutely should not be gitian binaries. That's fine as an option, but it is not a replacemnet.
567 2020-03-12T21:58:42  <luke-jr> BlueMatt: the idea was to version bump with a text file or something
568 2020-03-12T21:58:59  <luke-jr> (possibly deleting the installed binaries, which may be controversial?)
569 2020-03-12T21:59:14  <BlueMatt> ubuntu 19.X will fail to install already, as well as 20.04
570 2020-03-12T21:59:21  <BlueMatt> let me also delete the packages
571 2020-03-12T21:59:27  <luke-jr> deleting them won't uninstall them
572 2020-03-12T21:59:42  <BlueMatt> yes, but an os upgrde will
573 2020-03-12T21:59:56  <BlueMatt> it warns you on upgrade and requires confirmation to continue
574 2020-03-12T21:59:59  <luke-jr> OS upgrade probably already dropped them
575 2020-03-12T22:00:51  <luke-jr> the issue is the ~6000 existing installs who haven't upgraded
576 2020-03-12T22:00:57  <luke-jr> using LTS
577 2020-03-12T22:01:07  <BlueMatt> almost all of those distros are unmaintained at the os level?
578 2020-03-12T22:01:15  <sipa> xenial is still maintained until april 2021
579 2020-03-12T22:01:16  *** kristapsk has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
580 2020-03-12T22:01:23  <BlueMatt> only xenaial and bionic are not
581 2020-03-12T22:01:28  <luke-jr> even trusty is still maintained IIRC..
582 2020-03-12T22:01:52  <sipa> trusty is in "extended security maintenance"
583 2020-03-12T22:02:06  <luke-jr> trusty says EOL April 2022
584 2020-03-12T22:02:34  <luke-jr> precise is extended security maint
585 2020-03-12T22:02:57  <BlueMatt> precise is eol for "extendeds ecurity" in 2019
586 2020-03-12T22:02:57  <sipa> ESM requires registering with Ubuntu
587 2020-03-12T22:02:57  <luke-jr> wait no, precise is dead, but the wiki is outdated
588 2020-03-12T22:03:22  <luke-jr> in any case, there are still people using 0.18.0, and likely from matt's ppa
589 2020-03-12T22:03:54  <luke-jr> they shouldn't be told "switch to gitian binaries or else"; they should be made aware they can continue using system builds via the new PPA
590 2020-03-12T22:03:54  <sipa> i suspect that some are
591 2020-03-12T22:04:35  <sipa> luke-jr: if they trust you
592 2020-03-12T22:05:03  <achow101> luke-jr: can you succinctly say why system libs > gitian? I highly suspect that users of the PPA won't know or really care.
593 2020-03-12T22:05:11  <luke-jr> sipa: if they trust Canonical; again, there is nothing I can do without it being publicly visible.. but sure, a reasonable notice is fine
594 2020-03-12T22:05:40  <luke-jr> achow101: system libs integrates better, is more RAM-efficient, and gets bugfix updates (incl security) immediately
595 2020-03-12T22:06:07  <luke-jr> achow101: I don't know which Ubuntu version, but one has serious usability issues with gitian builds
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597 2020-03-12T22:07:03  <BlueMatt> note that the ppa was *worse* in that regard
598 2020-03-12T22:07:15  <luke-jr> BlueMatt: ?
599 2020-03-12T22:07:28  <BlueMatt> though the gui issues are a bit better due to ubuntu dropping their own crap and going back to gnome
600 2020-03-12T22:08:54  <luke-jr> only got stats for cosmic before BlueMatt deleted the pkgs, but people are still installing it since 2019-09 :x
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602 2020-03-12T22:09:39  <BlueMatt> we cant help anyone with an outdated unmaintained ubuntu distro
603 2020-03-12T22:09:47  <BlueMatt> launchpad doesnt even let you upload replacement dummy packages
604 2020-03-12T22:10:02  <luke-jr> sure, but we can help people using maintained versions
605 2020-03-12T22:10:35  <ysangkok> luke-jr: how big are the RAM savings? wouldn't it only be a few megabytes at most? very small compared to the total RAM usage
606 2020-03-12T22:10:48  <BlueMatt> thats basically just bionic, which should go away mostly very soon
607 2020-03-12T22:10:54  <luke-jr> ysangkok: all of Qt?
608 2020-03-12T22:11:23  <BlueMatt> ysangkok: for reference, most "modern, hip" stuff is moving to static-linking-by-default (rust, go, i mean shit electron apps ship an entire copy of chromium for each application)
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610 2020-03-12T22:11:40  <luke-jr> BlueMatt: which is why I advise nobody use them
611 2020-03-12T22:11:42  <BlueMatt> but, for us, its super trivial, and allows for testing and maintinence focus, which is critical
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613 2020-03-12T22:13:45  <ysangkok> luke-jr: bitcoin doesn't use "all of Qt". for example, my libqt5core is only 6 MB. and given that the default desktop isn't qt-based, qt may be loaded solely for bitcoin in case it is dynamically linked
614 2020-03-12T22:14:22  <luke-jr> ysangkok: worst case scenario, it's the same as if it was static linked, yes; but best case (and likely) scenario is better
615 2020-03-12T22:14:45  <sipa> if 6 MB is a problem, you probably shouldn't be running bitcoin core
616 2020-03-12T22:15:16  <luke-jr> heh, true
617 2020-03-12T22:15:28  <sipa> i agree in principle - there are advantages to dynamic libraries
618 2020-03-12T22:15:46  <sipa> but i don't see how they weigh up against the disadvantages in this case
619 2020-03-12T22:15:47  <luke-jr> one or two of the distros have a page explaining why it's bad to static link
620 2020-03-12T22:15:56  <luke-jr> sipa: what disadvantage?
621 2020-03-12T22:16:12  <sipa> luke-jr: reproducible binaries that can be compared with everyone
622 2020-03-12T22:16:17  <sipa> being the major one
623 2020-03-12T22:16:39  <luke-jr> there's no practical advantage to that when comparing to OS vendor built
624 2020-03-12T22:16:53  <luke-jr> unless the OS itself is deterministic, which none are yet
625 2020-03-12T22:17:29  <luke-jr> hmm, Debian claims static "renders some security measure less effective (ASLR for example)."
626 2020-03-12T22:17:32  <luke-jr> is that actually true?
627 2020-03-12T22:21:44  <sipa> i don't know
628 2020-03-12T22:25:02  <luke-jr> I would think PIE would at least get us *some* level of ASLR
629 2020-03-12T22:29:07  <elichai2> Haven't tested this tool yet, but if it works correctly probably other people here will find it very useful :) https://github.com/tummychow/git-absorb/blob/master/README.md
630 2020-03-12T22:29:37  <elichai2> (it basically automates fixing commits after review without the need to interactive rebase and fix one by one)
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634 2020-03-12T22:47:19  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #18337: init: Remove boost::thread_group (master...2003-NoBoostThreadGroup) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18337
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