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 13 2020-05-08T00:24:14  <midnight> sipa: hi!  graphs..?
 14 2020-05-08T00:24:19  <midnight> :-)
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 16 2020-05-08T00:28:23  <sipa> midnight: what's wrong with them?
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 30 2020-05-08T01:31:02  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #18910: p2p: add MAX_FEELER_CONNECTIONS constant (master...add_max_feeler_connections) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18910
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 64 2020-05-08T05:20:49  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] practicalswift opened pull request #18912: ci: Run fuzz testing test cases (bitcoin-core/qa-assets) under valgrind to catch memory errors (master...fuzzers-under-valgrind) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18912
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 88 2020-05-08T07:58:39  <jonasschnelli> jonatack really strange the fuzz crash you get with the v2 deserializer
 89 2020-05-08T07:59:24  <jonasschnelli> GetMessage() sets m_raw_message_size to header_size + msg.m_message_size,... which a few lines later gets tested through assert(msg.m_raw_message_size == header_size + msg.m_message_size); (which fails)
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101 2020-05-08T08:11:40  <jb55> smells like memory corruption
102 2020-05-08T08:11:59  <jonasschnelli> jonatack: found the issue revealed by the fuzzer
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110 2020-05-08T08:54:08  <jonasschnelli> sipa: do you think it is a problem to not MAC the length in the V2 BIP324 protocol? See comment: https://gist.github.com/jonasschnelli/c530ea8421b8d0e80c51486325587c52#gistcomment-3295536
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127 2020-05-08T09:35:56  <jonatack> jonasschnelli: nice!
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129 2020-05-08T09:36:09  <jonatack> will re-review
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132 2020-05-08T09:36:52  <sipa> jonasschnelli: i need to think about that; i hoped we could avoid these concerns by copying an existing construction :)
133 2020-05-08T09:41:19  <jonasschnelli> me two...
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153 2020-05-08T11:53:51  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #18914: refactor: Apply override specifier consistently (master...200508-override) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18914
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191 2020-05-08T13:44:03  <dfmb_> Hi im a noob, just wondering who decides which updates to deploy on bitcoin code? Letś say I make a pull request on the bitcoin github who decides that udpate is valid or it isn't ?
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193 2020-05-08T13:51:11  <belcher> dfmb_ thats a common question, have a read of this https://blog.lopp.net/who-controls-bitcoin-core-/
194 2020-05-08T13:51:42  <belcher> focusing on the github is a bit of a misdirection IMO, there have been situations in the past where the github code said one thing but users in practice ran some other code
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197 2020-05-08T14:03:38  <dfmb_> got it, thnks!
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231 2020-05-08T15:25:25  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 4 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/f54753293fe7...3930014abcdd
232 2020-05-08T15:25:25  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 89a28e0 Sjors Provoost: [test] add v0.16.3 backwards compatibility test
233 2020-05-08T15:25:25  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 9c246b8 Sjors Provoost: [test] backwards compatibility: bump v0.19.0.1 to v0.19.1
234 2020-05-08T15:25:26  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master d135c29 Sjors Provoost: [ci] make list of previous releases to download a setting
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237 2020-05-08T15:25:44  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #18864: Add v0.16.3 backwards compatibility test, bump v0.19.0.1 to v0.19.1 (master...2020/05/backwards_compat) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18864
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252 2020-05-08T16:19:44  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 6 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/3930014abcdd...5b24f6084ede
253 2020-05-08T16:19:45  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 23b9fa2 Hennadii Stepanov: gui: Add detailed text to BitcoinGUI::message
254 2020-05-08T16:19:45  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 917ca93 Hennadii Stepanov: Make ThreadSafe{MessageBox|Question} bilingual
255 2020-05-08T16:19:45  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 7e923d4 Hennadii Stepanov: Make InitError bilingual
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259 2020-05-08T16:20:59  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #16224: gui: Bilingual GUI error messages (master...20190617-bilingual-errors) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/16224
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261 2020-05-08T16:21:27  <hebasto> \o/
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295 2020-05-08T18:25:50  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] brakmic opened pull request #18917: fuzz: fix vector size problem in system fuzzer (master...fix-system-fuzzer) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18917
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299 2020-05-08T19:00:27  <meshcollider> #startmeeting
300 2020-05-08T19:00:27  <lightningbot> Meeting started Fri May  8 19:00:27 2020 UTC.  The chair is meshcollider. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
301 2020-05-08T19:00:27  <lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
302 2020-05-08T19:00:30  <provoostenator> hi
303 2020-05-08T19:00:32  <jonatack> hi
304 2020-05-08T19:00:38  <meshcollider> #bitcoin-core-dev Wallet Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag provoostenator aj Chris_Stewart_5 dongcarl gwillen jamesob ken281221 ryanofsky gleb moneyball ariard digi_james amiti fjahr
305 2020-05-08T19:00:39  <meshcollider> jeremyrubin emilengler jonatack hebasto jb55
306 2020-05-08T19:00:40  <achow101> hi
307 2020-05-08T19:01:42  <meshcollider> The main topic we have to discuss this week is the wallet DB
308 2020-05-08T19:02:04  <meshcollider> #topic wallet DB (achow101)
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310 2020-05-08T19:02:24  <meshcollider> There was a bit of discussion earlier in the week already
311 2020-05-08T19:02:33  <jnewbery> hi
312 2020-05-08T19:02:35  <fjahr> hi
313 2020-05-08T19:04:19  <achow101> yes
314 2020-05-08T19:04:25  <meshcollider> http://www.erisian.com.au/bitcoin-core-dev/log-2020-05-05.html
315 2020-05-08T19:04:53  <jonatack> http://www.erisian.com.au/bitcoin-core-dev/log-2020-05-05.html#l-100
316 2020-05-08T19:05:12  <achow101> Also #18916
317 2020-05-08T19:05:14  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/18916 | Sqlite wallet storage · Issue #18916 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
318 2020-05-08T19:06:05  <achow101> (and probably 5 or so old issues and PRs)
319 2020-05-08T19:06:52  <provoostenator> Is there any reason why descriptor wallets are special when it comes to introducing new storage?
320 2020-05-08T19:06:55  <achow101> I'd like to move us off of BDB to something else. What that something else is, we can
321 2020-05-08T19:06:59  <achow101> *we can discuss later
322 2020-05-08T19:07:26  <achow101> I wanted to do this specifically for descriptor wallets because descriptor wallets are a wholly new thing so it made logical sense to me to introduce another wholly new thing with the descriptor wallets
323 2020-05-08T19:07:32  <achow101> since it's already backwards incompatible anyways
324 2020-05-08T19:08:09  <meshcollider> provoostenator: that's what the bulk of the discussion with sipa a few days ago was, he believes it's entirely orthogonal
325 2020-05-08T19:08:11  <provoostenator> True, assuming it's something we can get merge-ready before 0.21
326 2020-05-08T19:08:27  <achow101> then we can ditch bdb whenever we ditch legacy wallets
327 2020-05-08T19:08:36  <jonatack> iirc the conclusion of that discussion was that descriptor wallets and the DB ought to be orthogonal concerns?
328 2020-05-08T19:08:41  <achow101> jonatack: yes
329 2020-05-08T19:08:42  <meshcollider> Exactly, it has to be 0.21 if it's going to be a descriptor wallet thing
330 2020-05-08T19:09:03  <achow101> I think the conclusion of that discussion was implement it agnostic of the wallet type since it is orthogonal
331 2020-05-08T19:09:13  <provoostenator> They are orthogonal, but it's nice to have if we can do these things at the same time.
332 2020-05-08T19:09:14  <achow101> then later we can restrict it to descriptor wallets if we get it in fast enough
333 2020-05-08T19:09:25  <luke-jr> a long time ago, we wanted to move to an append-only wallet file format
334 2020-05-08T19:09:37  <sipa> i think it should be developed as orthogonal - the way it's exposed to users can be to require sqlite wallets for descriptor wallets if it's ready for 0.21, and otherwise it should remain orthogonal
335 2020-05-08T19:09:50  <sipa> luke-jr: i'm aware :)
336 2020-05-08T19:09:56  <provoostenator> sipa: that makes sense
337 2020-05-08T19:10:52  <meshcollider> yep
338 2020-05-08T19:10:53  <achow101> luke-jr: I actually don't think append only makes a ton of sense for us anymore. we're constantly updating and rewriting records
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340 2020-05-08T19:11:10  <achow101> e.g. CHDChain is updated for every single new key
341 2020-05-08T19:11:18  <achow101> (in legacy wallets)
342 2020-05-08T19:11:39  <jnewbery> 'require sqlite wallets for descriptor wallets' seems like it could be a really nice thing. (I haven't read the previous discussion)
343 2020-05-08T19:11:43  <sipa> but it's kind of reinventing the wheel - sqlite is overkill, but it's (in my understanding) very well tested and does what we'd need; probably with more assurances than what a self-developed solution can provide at the levels of effort we'd be willing to put into it
344 2020-05-08T19:11:51  <luke-jr> achow101: does it need to be?
345 2020-05-08T19:12:11  <sipa> achow101: that's not really relevant; an append-only format would still compact whenever too many records are rewritten
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347 2020-05-08T19:12:24  <luke-jr> achow101: abstractly, we don't need to be rewriting often
348 2020-05-08T19:12:59  <luke-jr> do we know how good sqlite's compatibility guarantees are? or are we just going to end up int he same place soon?
349 2020-05-08T19:13:13  <luke-jr> can an old sqlite open a new sqlite db?
350 2020-05-08T19:13:15  <achow101> luke-jr: i think so? regardless, I'd also like to not touch application level stuff, just the blob storage to keep things simple
351 2020-05-08T19:13:16  <provoostenator> It can be run in javascript :-)
352 2020-05-08T19:13:18  <sipa> luke-jr: yes
353 2020-05-08T19:13:35  <sipa> achow101: we're still rewriting very infrequently compared to everything stored in the file, so i think the approach of an append-only format that gets occasionally compacted makes perfect sense
354 2020-05-08T19:13:39  <achow101> luke-jr: sqlite promises that compatibility will be maintained to at least 2050 or something like that. and everything is public domain
355 2020-05-08T19:13:40  <gwillen> I think sqlite is approximately the most-tested piece of software in existence
356 2020-05-08T19:13:51  <gwillen> outside of extremely specialized things like the space shuttle
357 2020-05-08T19:14:00  <luke-jr> achow101: everything is open source in bdb4/5 too
358 2020-05-08T19:14:22  <achow101> luke-jr: public domain meaning no license attached
359 2020-05-08T19:14:34  <luke-jr> achow101: that's a bad thing, not a good one :P
360 2020-05-08T19:14:53  <achow101> how so? it means that we won't have them move to agpl like bdb did
361 2020-05-08T19:15:12  <luke-jr> achow101: they can move to AGPL just as easily as BDB did. But it's bad because PD isn't legal in some places
362 2020-05-08T19:15:25  <sipa> achow101: it's just whether we're willing to put effort into building and maintaining a new format just to avoid some of the complexity of sqlite
363 2020-05-08T19:15:36  <sipa> (which i think isn't worth it today)
364 2020-05-08T19:15:41  <achow101> From their website: "The SQLite file format is stable, cross-platform, and backwards compatible and the developers pledge to keep it that way through at least the year 2050." and "SQLite source code is in the public-domain and is free to everyone to use for any purpose."
365 2020-05-08T19:15:43  <luke-jr> tbh maintaining bdb is probably easier than maintaining sqlite
366 2020-05-08T19:15:45  <gwillen> I have never heard a credible lawyer claim that PD is "not legal"
367 2020-05-08T19:15:47  <provoostenator> luke-jr: is it illegal in places where Bitcoin is legal?
368 2020-05-08T19:15:50  <gwillen> in any jurisdiction
369 2020-05-08T19:15:57  <gwillen> I have heard some people who are not lawyers claim that
370 2020-05-08T19:15:58  <luke-jr> achow101: it's forward-compatible that is the concern
371 2020-05-08T19:16:03  <luke-jr> provoostenator: no idea
372 2020-05-08T19:16:04  <gwillen> my impression is that they are mostly confused
373 2020-05-08T19:16:43  <sipa> https://www.sqlite.org/copyright.html
374 2020-05-08T19:16:44  <sipa> read that
375 2020-05-08T19:17:30  <provoostenator> How far do we need to be forward-compatible? The purpose of that is to make it easier to downgrade from a bad soft fork or bug, right?
376 2020-05-08T19:17:36  <provoostenator> Not to downgrade all the way to 0.1
377 2020-05-08T19:19:40  <sipa> if existing use is any evidence, there are tons of applications using sqlite for application-level storage like we do - but those who are using bdb seems to be mostly old software that's moving away from it (slapd to lmdb, subversion to fsfs, ...)
378 2020-05-08T19:20:10  <luke-jr> sipa: but how many that support downgrading?
379 2020-05-08T19:20:10  <achow101> provoostenator: at the very least, within the versions that are still maintained
380 2020-05-08T19:20:39  <sipa> luke-jr: bdb is terrible at forward compatibility, i don't understand
381 2020-05-08T19:20:53  <luke-jr> sipa: yes, I'm just not sure sqlite improves on this
382 2020-05-08T19:20:57  <gwillen> btw here is the paper that tested a bunch of database engines for whether they misuse filesystem APIs in ways that make them vulnerable to data loss
383 2020-05-08T19:20:57  <provoostenator> Right, so that means we have to have a careful upgrade policy for the sqlite dependency, that's documented somewhere
384 2020-05-08T19:21:00  <gwillen> https://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/osdi14/osdi14-paper-pillai.pdf
385 2020-05-08T19:21:01  <luke-jr> and while bdb might be maintainable, sqlite is a lot more complex
386 2020-05-08T19:21:02  <ryanofsky> should be aware most of the work involved in this is just abstracting the existing code. if it's just a key value store and you want to swap out sqlite for lukedb that should be pretty easy
387 2020-05-08T19:21:08  <gwillen> sqlite in write-ahead-logging mode is literally the only one that passed
388 2020-05-08T19:21:09  <luke-jr> and AFAIK we don't gain anything from sqlite's complexity
389 2020-05-08T19:21:15  <sipa> luke-jr: sqlite is a single cpp file if you want
390 2020-05-08T19:21:25  <sipa> it couldn't be more simple
391 2020-05-08T19:21:31  <gwillen> leveldb failed, they did not test bdb unfortunately
392 2020-05-08T19:21:35  <luke-jr> sipa: shoving everything into a single file doesn't impress me?
393 2020-05-08T19:21:48  <achow101> luke-jr: i'd like to make use of sqlite's complexity with actual tables and columns, just not initially
394 2020-05-08T19:21:49  <sipa> luke-jr: then use the library
395 2020-05-08T19:21:56  <luke-jr> sipa: not the point
396 2020-05-08T19:22:03  <sipa> then i don't understand your point
397 2020-05-08T19:22:12  <sipa> bdb is a maintenance nightmare in my impression
398 2020-05-08T19:22:28  <jnewbery> I think it's kinda weird that we claim forward-compatibility. We don't have any tests for it, and I can't imagine anyone cares, except for (maybe) downgrading one version.
399 2020-05-08T19:22:33  <luke-jr> my main point is we gain nothing by moving to sqlite afaik
400 2020-05-08T19:22:40  <gwillen> luke-jr: did you read the paper I linked
401 2020-05-08T19:22:51  <meshcollider> Yes the existing code needs a significant tidy-up to abstract before a new db can be introduced, that's something achow101 messaged me about yesterday, it's going to be quite a difficult job
402 2020-05-08T19:22:59  <sipa> sqlite explicitly has compatibility as a design goal
403 2020-05-08T19:23:09  <luke-jr> gwillen: no; in practice, we have bdb working today
404 2020-05-08T19:23:18  <gwillen> sqlite is the only database engine that actually passes tests of correctness for safely storing data on disk
405 2020-05-08T19:23:21  <sipa> for bdb it seems like an afterthought that's effectively only achieved by it being abandoned
406 2020-05-08T19:23:33  <gwillen> this is because sqlite is the most tested piece of software in existence
407 2020-05-08T19:23:39  <provoostenator> jnewbery: we do have tests for it, as of recently: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/test/functional/feature_backwards_compatibility.py#L221
408 2020-05-08T19:23:48  <gwillen> (admitting, again, that bdb was not included in the list tested, but I would be shocked if it managed to pass)
409 2020-05-08T19:24:15  <provoostenator> That test loads master branch wallets all the back to 0.17
410 2020-05-08T19:24:33  <provoostenator> (as in, it opens them using the 0.17 binary)
411 2020-05-08T19:24:57  <achow101> luke-jr: we currently have a ton of hacks to make bdb consistent and not corrupt itself. I think sqlite gives us better guarantees of that. additionally it doesn't have persistent log files like bdb, everything is mostly self contained within a single file with the exception being active writes
412 2020-05-08T19:25:02  <sipa> bdb also has a ton of complexity we don't use, though of a different nature than sqlite; it is designed for multi-process applications accessing the same database simultaneously, with locking, synchronization, ... overhead
413 2020-05-08T19:25:15  <provoostenator> Doesn't BlueMatt_ have a Rust database?
414 2020-05-08T19:25:21  <sipa> achow101: sqlite has a write log
415 2020-05-08T19:25:25  <luke-jr> sipa: so does sqlite..>?
416 2020-05-08T19:25:32  <jnewbery> ok, but I still claim my second statement is true. Literally nobody wants to run a v0.20 wallet on v0.17 software.
417 2020-05-08T19:25:39  <achow101> sipa: it cleans up the journal when everything is flushed
418 2020-05-08T19:25:40  <sipa> luke-jr: no, sqlite is single-process
419 2020-05-08T19:25:44  <luke-jr> jnewbery: I might.
420 2020-05-08T19:25:47  <sipa> achow101: of course
421 2020-05-08T19:25:53  <luke-jr> jnewbery: I'm still using 0.13 for my real wallet
422 2020-05-08T19:26:23  <luke-jr> sipa: but you can use sqlite from multiple programs on the same db IIRC
423 2020-05-08T19:26:24  <jnewbery> then still use it. But the expectation that you can take that wallet, load it in master, do something with it and then reload it in 0.13 is unrealistic
424 2020-05-08T19:26:32  <sipa> luke-jr: not simultaneously
425 2020-05-08T19:26:48  <achow101> sipa: there's an option for that. but it's not relevant to us
426 2020-05-08T19:26:51  <luke-jr> jnewbery: it works today, so clearly not unrealistic..
427 2020-05-08T19:26:55  <sipa> ah
428 2020-05-08T19:26:58  <sipa> maybe i'm wrong
429 2020-05-08T19:27:01  <meshcollider> If someone is still using 0.13, they probably *won't* ever edit it in master, that's probably the point
430 2020-05-08T19:27:13  <provoostenator> We also have wallet-tool now, so we could make it easier to dump wallets into a more universal text based format
431 2020-05-08T19:27:15  <achow101> luke-jr: I think you might be an edge case
432 2020-05-08T19:27:24  <meshcollider> A few versions of forward compatibility seems fine
433 2020-05-08T19:27:32  <provoostenator> And then you can use older versions to import from that text format
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436 2020-05-08T19:27:46  <sipa> as long as achow101 doesn't go through with his start-using-table-features, a trivial dump+load with command-line tools would always be possible to convert between bdb and sqlite even
437 2020-05-08T19:27:58  <gwillen> I am surprised to learn that forward-compatibility exists, isn't there a minimum version field in the wallet that gets rolled forward sometimes?
438 2020-05-08T19:28:05  <gwillen> does that only happen if you actively use a new feature?
439 2020-05-08T19:28:08  <achow101> gwillen: only with explicity upgrades
440 2020-05-08T19:28:09  <luke-jr> gwillen: only when the user requests it
441 2020-05-08T19:28:11  <sipa> gwillen: only when you explicitly use -upgradewallet
442 2020-05-08T19:28:16  <sipa> or the RPC now
443 2020-05-08T19:28:20  <jnewbery> luke-jr: is your opposition to this because it makes it more difficult to maintain bitcoin knots if the dependencies in bitcoin core change?
444 2020-05-08T19:28:28  <luke-jr> jnewbery: no
445 2020-05-08T19:28:30  <provoostenator> It's just something we have to take into account early on, making sure dumpwallet  can dump descriptor wallets.
446 2020-05-08T19:29:14  <luke-jr> jnewbery: I just don't see the benefit, and it seems quite possible we end up in a worse situation
447 2020-05-08T19:29:39  <sipa> you don't think there is a downside to being effectively locked with abandoned software?
448 2020-05-08T19:29:57  <luke-jr> no? that's just stability
449 2020-05-08T19:30:05  <provoostenator> I'm not familiar enough with the code differences between sqlite and bdb, but it seems like sqlite is alive.
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452 2020-05-08T19:30:15  <provoostenator> And we can't jump to BDB 18
453 2020-05-08T19:30:18  <jonatack> it sounds like there is rough consensus to look into eventually moving to sqlite
454 2020-05-08T19:30:25  <luke-jr> provoostenator: alive-ness seems like a negative here
455 2020-05-08T19:30:30  <sipa> luke-jr: ...
456 2020-05-08T19:30:33  <meshcollider> We would have to keep the bdb support for the long term anyway
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458 2020-05-08T19:30:39  <luke-jr> for a wallet store, stability is needed, not constant change
459 2020-05-08T19:30:48  <achow101> at the very least, I think it would be good to move forward with refactoring and cleaning up the existing db storage code
460 2020-05-08T19:30:53  <sipa> format stability yes, which sqlite has
461 2020-05-08T19:30:53  <meshcollider> ^
462 2020-05-08T19:30:54  <provoostenator> Non-deadness is good, too much change is bad.
463 2020-05-08T19:31:04  <achow101> in such a way that adding *some other* db in the end can be done more easily
464 2020-05-08T19:31:13  <achow101> whether that's sqlite, logdb, or something else
465 2020-05-08T19:31:13  <ryanofsky> what is dead may never die
466 2020-05-08T19:31:15  <luke-jr> sipa: backwards-compatible is not forwards-compatible
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469 2020-05-08T19:31:32  <luke-jr> achow101: certainly
470 2020-05-08T19:31:35  <meshcollider> I don't think anyone can complain about just a code cleanup in advance of a db introduction
471 2020-05-08T19:31:45  <jonatack> ^
472 2020-05-08T19:31:51  <provoostenator> Forwards compatilibyt isn't a big deal if we have a canonical dump format.
473 2020-05-08T19:32:05  <sipa> provoostenator: we don't have a canonical dump format, but we don't need one
474 2020-05-08T19:32:08  <sipa> csv works great
475 2020-05-08T19:32:15  <sipa> it's a key-value store ffs
476 2020-05-08T19:32:20  <achow101> luke-jr: sqlite has a table of format changes: https://sqlite.org/formatchng.html and it looks like the latest format hasn't changed
477 2020-05-08T19:32:35  <provoostenator> sipa: csv is fine by me
478 2020-05-08T19:32:59  <sipa> sqlite3 is btw what everything uses
479 2020-05-08T19:33:05  <luke-jr> achow101: ok, so that table seems to prove my point
480 2020-05-08T19:33:16  <luke-jr> what if we switch to sqlite3, and sqlite4 completely breaks compatibility?
481 2020-05-08T19:33:27  <gwillen> luke-jr: your point is that sqlite has not changed its format in 16 years, since before bitcoin was invented?
482 2020-05-08T19:33:28  <luke-jr> "The new file format is very different and is completely incompatible with the version 2 file format."
483 2020-05-08T19:33:35  <gwillen> and has a direct statement that it will never do so again?
484 2020-05-08T19:33:36  <gwillen> that point?
485 2020-05-08T19:33:41  <sipa> sqlite3 was released in 2004
486 2020-05-08T19:33:51  <provoostenator> "In other words, since 2004 all SQLite releases have been backwards compatible, though not necessarily forwards compatible."
487 2020-05-08T19:33:56  <achow101> luke-jr: they had a sqlite4. it was killed
488 2020-05-08T19:34:12  <provoostenator> Which means we need to be able to dump (into a CSV )to compensate for  lack of forwards compatibility.
489 2020-05-08T19:34:23  <meshcollider> If we just use basic features, like we do in BDB, there's even less of a chance of breaking forwards compatibility
490 2020-05-08T19:34:23  <provoostenator> But upgrading should be fine.
491 2020-05-08T19:34:28  <luke-jr> " Since 2004, there have been enhancements to SQLite such that newer database files are unreadable by older versions of the SQLite library." ☹
492 2020-05-08T19:34:28  <sipa> provoostenator: that's more relevant, but i believe it's only when you use database features that were introduced later
493 2020-05-08T19:34:46  <gwillen> I believe when you create an sqlite database file you can specify the file version
494 2020-05-08T19:34:48  <sipa> luke-jr: and the same is true for bdb 4.8, bdb 6, ...
495 2020-05-08T19:34:52  <sipa> luke-jr: what is your point?
496 2020-05-08T19:34:58  <achow101> provoostenator: I believe they have a minversion type thing like we do, but it's for new features that you have to explicitly use
497 2020-05-08T19:35:00  <gwillen> so if you don't desire to use features that were added after 2004, you just set your file version to 2004
498 2020-05-08T19:35:15  <luke-jr> sipa: my point is we don't want to get stuck with sqlite3.31
499 2020-05-08T19:35:16  <sipa> if you think sticking to bdb 4.8 is fine, then sticking to sqlite 3.whatever it is now is also fine
500 2020-05-08T19:35:21  <gwillen> then you can read or write it with any versiono of sqlite that exists
501 2020-05-08T19:35:29  <luke-jr> due to sqlite's activity, there is a lot more pressure to drop old verisons
502 2020-05-08T19:35:31  <sipa> luke-jr: but being stuck with bdb 4.8 is fine?
503 2020-05-08T19:35:37  <luke-jr> yes, bdb is dead
504 2020-05-08T19:35:46  <meshcollider> Anyway, achow101 did mention at the start that we can decide on the choice of db later
505 2020-05-08T19:35:53  <sipa> if it being dead is fine, then you can treat sqlite as dead too
506 2020-05-08T19:36:00  <sipa> i really don't comprehend your argument
507 2020-05-08T19:36:00  <luke-jr> you can't, because it isn't
508 2020-05-08T19:36:08  <luke-jr> distros will continue updating it
509 2020-05-08T19:36:08  <meshcollider> Is there anything else you want to discuss achow101, about the code abstraction or anything?
510 2020-05-08T19:36:18  <provoostenator> The idea was to include the source, right?
511 2020-05-08T19:36:26  <luke-jr> definitely NACK
512 2020-05-08T19:36:40  <sipa> provoostenator: i'm not sure that's a necessary
513 2020-05-08T19:36:42  <achow101> if anyone wants to read about the mess that is our loading code and what I would like to change: https://gist.github.com/achow101/cda3ea1bb07f585e56caaf969e842188
514 2020-05-08T19:37:07  <provoostenator> If we rely on distros then you can't pretend it's dead.
515 2020-05-08T19:37:14  <achow101> so the next point of possible contention is where to put salvagewallet because that needs to be moved out of loading code
516 2020-05-08T19:37:39  <achow101> I think i'll just dump it into wallettool for now
517 2020-05-08T19:38:45  <jnewbery> achow101: +1
518 2020-05-08T19:38:55  <achow101> and another thing to discuss: whether we still want to support the old multiwallet method where you renamed the wallet.dat file. so multiple wallets were in the same dbenv
519 2020-05-08T19:38:58  <sipa> that makes sense
520 2020-05-08T19:39:13  <achow101> I think we have to remove that support otherwise it will get in the way of the abstraction
521 2020-05-08T19:39:49  <jnewbery> achow101: is there a migration path? A way to move separate wallets into their own directories on load?
522 2020-05-08T19:40:24  <luke-jr> no need to rename, just -wallet=foo.dat
523 2020-05-08T19:41:10  <ryanofsky> jnewbery: it is possible to move them manually, wallet-tool could also be extended to help with this, but I think automatic migration would be the best
524 2020-05-08T19:41:12  <achow101> jnewbery: use your preferred file explorer and move some wallet file?
525 2020-05-08T19:41:42  <ryanofsky> or maybe not, automatic migration might cause problems if people are doing automated backups of existing files
526 2020-05-08T19:41:56  <achow101> I would not go with automatic migration
527 2020-05-08T19:42:19  <achow101> what i've done currently is to give a very verbose warning about what you have to do manually
528 2020-05-08T19:42:26  <achow101> s/warning/error
529 2020-05-08T19:43:01  <ryanofsky> i don't think it should actually be that big of a deal to keep supporting them either, but I can see why you don't want to do that
530 2020-05-08T19:43:02  <jnewbery> giving manual instructions for something the user will only ever need to do once seems reasonable
531 2020-05-08T19:43:16  <ryanofsky> +1
532 2020-05-08T19:43:30  <provoostenator> As long as the GUI offers a "wizard" for that?
533 2020-05-08T19:43:36  <jnewbery> presumably users that have configured multi-wallet are fairly advanced and can handle moving files into a directory
534 2020-05-08T19:44:07  <provoostenator> I would say RPC users should be able to use "mv"
535 2020-05-08T19:44:11  <achow101> I think any user still using that behavior had to got into multiwallet very early on where you had to set startup options. so presumably they know what they're doing
536 2020-05-08T19:44:26  <ryanofsky> jnewbery, it means they started bitcoin at some point with a -wallet=something command line argument, but maybe that is advanced enough
537 2020-05-08T19:44:27  <jnewbery> provoostenator: I don't think it's necessary, and the development/testing overhead to get right that maybe a few hundred(?) people will only use once seems disproportionate.
538 2020-05-08T19:44:28  <meshcollider> At least those who made them before the multiwallet GUI create dialog
539 2020-05-08T19:44:42  <meshcollider> Which is well after separate directories was introduced
540 2020-05-08T19:44:58  <achow101> i think it predates the createwallet rpc?
541 2020-05-08T19:45:09  <ryanofsky> yes, predates the rpcs and gui stuff iirc
542 2020-05-08T19:45:14  <provoostenator> Oh ok, if it doesn't affect  single wallet users, and only effects multi-wallet users before the GUI supported that, it's fine.
543 2020-05-08T19:46:32  <meshcollider> Nice write-up btw achow101
544 2020-05-08T19:46:50  <ryanofsky> it affects single wallet users who used -wallet option prior to multiwallet support too, but maybe they are even less of a concerns
545 2020-05-08T19:48:08  <luke-jr> does moving just wallet.dat work, or is some magic needed with the database/ dir?
546 2020-05-08T19:48:18  <luke-jr> I guess backupwallet is always an option
547 2020-05-08T19:48:28  <achow101> luke-jr: as long as everything was shut down cleanly, just moving the wallet.dat will work
548 2020-05-08T19:48:43  <ryanofsky> you just need to create a directory with a "wallet.dat" file, assuming there are no old logs
549 2020-05-08T19:49:21  <ryanofsky> if there are logs in the directory, they are shared between all the wallet files in the directory, so there is some risk of data loss if you don't copy them too
550 2020-05-08T19:50:26  <luke-jr> [19:32:05] <sipa> provoostenator: we don't have a canonical dump format, but we don't need one <-- btw, there is the dumpwallet RPC
551 2020-05-08T19:50:40  <luke-jr> which is a mess IMO
552 2020-05-08T19:50:48  <sipa> dumpwallet does not achieve that at all
553 2020-05-08T19:50:52  <ryanofsky> just looked up, #1889 is the pr that introduce the -wallet option for wallets with custom names
554 2020-05-08T19:50:54  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/1889 | let user select wallet file with -wallet=foo.dat by tcatm · Pull Request #1889 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
555 2020-05-08T19:50:59  <provoostenator> luke-jr: yes, but dumpwallet is dsiabled for desciptor wallets, and needs to be redone properly anyway
556 2020-05-08T19:51:09  <sipa> it dumps private keys, and a few other things - it does not dump all the wallet data that lets you recreate the same wallet again
557 2020-05-08T19:51:10  <provoostenator> But that should be doable
558 2020-05-08T19:51:30  <jnewbery> My opinion on forward/backward wallet compatibility is that we should support 2 versions in either direction, and make sure that we have 100% test coverage of all features. The fact that we have code like https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/5b24f6084ede92d0f493ff416b4726245140b2c1/src/wallet/walletdb.cpp#L284 which is supposed to support some wallet quirk in 2012 that isn't tested and
559 2020-05-08T19:51:33  <luke-jr> sipa: there's a paired loadwallet too; it just isn't lossless
560 2020-05-08T19:51:36  <jnewbery> probably wasn't even in an actual release is crazy.
561 2020-05-08T19:51:37  <provoostenator> The reverse of that new dumpwallet just needs to be smart enough to ignore stuff it doesn't know.
562 2020-05-08T19:52:31  <achow101> provoostenator: we already have importwallet to do the inverse of dumpwallet
563 2020-05-08T19:52:32  <sipa> luke-jr: i'm aware, i think i wrote it
564 2020-05-08T19:52:36  <achow101> I think both need changes
565 2020-05-08T19:53:16  <sipa> agree
566 2020-05-08T19:53:19  <luke-jr> jnewbery: 3.16.0 it says?
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568 2020-05-08T19:53:48  <luke-jr> if we were sticking to bdb, we could just tell people to use db4.8dump or whatever XD
569 2020-05-08T19:55:02  <meshcollider> Ok last 5 mins, anything else anyone wanted to discuss?
570 2020-05-08T19:55:07  <jonatack> achow101: that is a really helpful writeup
571 2020-05-08T19:56:32  <jonatack> meshcollider: blockers/high-priority?
572 2020-05-08T19:56:56  <meshcollider> Any changes for high priority? Probably covered yesterday
573 2020-05-08T19:57:19  <achow101> i'd just like to review beg for both #16946 and #17681
574 2020-05-08T19:57:21  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16946 | wallet: include a checksum of encrypted private keys by achow101 · Pull Request #16946 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
575 2020-05-08T19:57:23  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/17681 | wallet: Keep inactive seeds after sethdseed and derive keys from them as needed by achow101 · Pull Request #17681 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
576 2020-05-08T19:57:42  <provoostenator> People are always welcome to play with #16549
577 2020-05-08T19:57:44  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16549 | UI external signer support (e.g. hardware wallet) by Sjors · Pull Request #16549 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
578 2020-05-08T19:57:59  <provoostenator> (draft, not high priority)
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580 2020-05-08T19:58:42  <meshcollider> Alright, thanks everyone for the discussion :)
581 2020-05-08T19:58:43  <jnewbery> achow101: we're going to cover 17681 in review club next wednesday (ryanofsky hosting). It'd be great if you could join us
582 2020-05-08T19:58:47  <meshcollider> #endmeeting
583 2020-05-08T19:58:47  <lightningbot> Meeting ended Fri May  8 19:58:47 2020 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
584 2020-05-08T19:58:47  <lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-05-08-19.00.html
585 2020-05-08T19:58:47  <lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-05-08-19.00.txt
586 2020-05-08T19:58:47  <lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-05-08-19.00.log.html
587 2020-05-08T19:59:03  <achow101> jnewbery: I'll try to remember to join
588 2020-05-08T19:59:06  <jonatack> will look at those PRs. #18594 if anyone interested is pretty far along.
589 2020-05-08T19:59:09  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/18594 | cli: display multiwallet balances in -getinfo by jonatack · Pull Request #18594 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
590 2020-05-08T19:59:25  <jnewbery> achow101: I'll ping ya
591 2020-05-08T19:59:26  <jonatack> it's the client-side version
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595 2020-05-08T20:07:50  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] brakmic closed pull request #18908: util: raise a deadly signal in system.cpp fuzzer (master...fuzz-ub-argsmanager) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18908
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599 2020-05-08T20:11:57  <jnewbery> Does anyone know what this failure in appveyor means: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/DrahtBot/bitcoin/builds/32747418 ? I tried rerunning and it's happened twice in a row
600 2020-05-08T20:16:16  <sipa> where is _ defined?
601 2020-05-08T20:16:19  <sipa> it's kinda hard to grep for
602 2020-05-08T20:17:02  <sipa> oh, got it
603 2020-05-08T20:17:06  <sipa> util/translation.h
604 2020-05-08T20:17:25  <sipa> i'm confused why this code compiles at all (outside of appveyor)
605 2020-05-08T20:17:36  <sipa> oh no
606 2020-05-08T20:18:06  <sipa> _ returns a bilingual_string, InitError takes a bilingual string... why is appveyor complaining that it's being passed an std::string?
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610 2020-05-08T20:28:34  <jnewbery> I'm going to try rebasing on master. There were changes merged in #16224, but I don't see why that should affect my branch
611 2020-05-08T20:28:36  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16224 | gui: Bilingual GUI error messages by hebasto · Pull Request #16224 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
612 2020-05-08T20:29:18  <sipa> ah, i was just checking master
613 2020-05-08T20:30:34  <jnewbery> I have to say that fighting against our CIs is really painful. It seems like that's where I've spent most of my time for this PR.
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618 2020-05-08T20:41:20  <jnewbery> ok, it was a silent merge conflict with 16224. Thanks to jonatack for pointing me in the right direction
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620 2020-05-08T20:43:56  <sipa> jnewbery: re compatibility...i think for backward compatibility we essentially want to be able to load any old wallet file, back to 0.1... but for very far back formats i think it's fine if that needs an explicit conversion step first (possibly using wallet-tool or something similar)
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625 2020-05-08T20:46:00  <sipa> 2 major releases is not much though...
626 2020-05-08T20:46:37  <jnewbery> sipa: what if that explicit convertion step is "load it on v0.xx first"?
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629 2020-05-08T20:47:29  <jnewbery> I'd argue that if we don't test something we can't really claim that we support it.
630 2020-05-08T20:48:07  <sipa> then we should test it :)
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632 2020-05-08T20:49:32  <jnewbery> Maybe, but it's probably not worth the developer time. I'm personally not interested in writing tests for v0.1 wallets.
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635 2020-05-08T20:52:14  <sipa> fair, but there is a difference between supporting and not gratuitously breaking
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640 2020-05-08T20:53:57  <sipa> i think it'd be unfortunate if someone needs to jump through hoops like running already-unsupported versions just to get access to a years-old wallet file
641 2020-05-08T20:54:10  <jnewbery> If it's to improve code quality and remove debt, it's not gratuitous
642 2020-05-08T20:54:25  <jnewbery> unfortunate but not the end of the world
643 2020-05-08T20:55:14  <sipa> ok, let me then be more clear: i think it's ok if someone with a wallet file from 2012 has to go through some hoops to load a wallet
644 2020-05-08T20:55:22  <sipa> i don't think that's ok for a wallet from 2017
645 2020-05-08T20:55:55  <sipa> these things can be very long lived
646 2020-05-08T20:56:01  <sipa> and sometimes forgotten about
647 2020-05-08T20:56:17  <jnewbery> that also seems reasonable to me. 2 versions is maybe too aggresive.
648 2020-05-08T20:58:01  <sipa> for forward compatibility i think shorter timelines are acceptable; nobody expects being able to downgrade to years old software
649 2020-05-08T20:58:25  <sipa> but being able to roll back after an incompatibility introduced in one version vs the next is very desirable
650 2020-05-08T20:59:56  <jnewbery> yes, I think 1 or 2 is acceptable for forward compatibility
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664 2020-05-08T21:26:24  <sipa> when using the snap package, is it expected that the binaries are called bitcoin-core.daemon bitcoin-core.cli ... instead of the usual ones?
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666 2020-05-08T21:36:14  <sipa> fwiw, sqlite 3.6.10 (compiled with everything --disable-...) from 2009 can open a database i created with 3.31.1 (compiled with every --enable-...) fine
667 2020-05-08T21:36:49  <sipa> 3.6.10 because it's the earliest available in the git clone i'm using
668 2020-05-08T21:56:55  <sipa> also, there is a db creation option that guarantees compatibility with 3.0.0
669 2020-05-08T21:58:02  <sipa> otherwise it seems forward compatibility exists down to 3.3.0, except when newer extensions are explicitly used
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671 2020-05-08T22:01:53  <luke-jr> [21:56:55] <sipa> also, there is a db creation option that guarantees compatibility with 3.0.0 <-- nice
672 2020-05-08T22:02:25  <luke-jr> is there one that guarantees compatibility with the current stable version in major distros?
673 2020-05-08T22:02:43  <luke-jr> (eg, if Core were compiled against some future version we can't anticipate)
674 2020-05-08T22:02:53  <sipa> no, it seems there have not been any actual format changes since 3.3.0 in 2006
675 2020-05-08T22:03:14  <sipa> only extension
676 2020-05-08T22:03:17  <luke-jr> ok, so what we'd want is an option to force compat with 3.3
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678 2020-05-08T22:04:25  <luke-jr> if someone builds against some future sqlite 3.90, we'd want to be sure it remains compatible with what we're using now
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684 2020-05-08T22:13:29  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/5b24f6084ede...b55866969e24
685 2020-05-08T22:13:29  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 095bc9a Harris: fuzz: fix vector size problem in system fuzzer
686 2020-05-08T22:13:30  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master b558669 MarcoFalke: Merge #18917: fuzz: fix vector size problem in system fuzzer
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689 2020-05-08T22:13:48  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #18917: fuzz: fix vector size problem in system fuzzer (master...fix-system-fuzzer) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18917
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705 2020-05-08T23:12:36  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 opened pull request #18918: wallet: Move salvagewallet into wallettool (master...wallettool-salvagewallet) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18918
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708 2020-05-08T23:13:56  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #18919: test: Add gettransaction test for "coin-join" tx (master...2005-testCoinJoinGetTx) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18919
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715 2020-05-08T23:33:06  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/b55866969e24...376294cde6b1
716 2020-05-08T23:33:07  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fae153b MarcoFalke: test: Fix verack race to avoid intermittent test failures
717 2020-05-08T23:33:07  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 376294c MarcoFalke: Merge #18866: test: Fix verack race to avoid intermittent test failures
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720 2020-05-08T23:33:26  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #18866: test: Fix verack race to avoid intermittent test failures (master...2005-qaVerackRace) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18866
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722 2020-05-08T23:47:07  <sipa> MarcoFalke: i don't think issues should be closed because nobody is working on them
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724 2020-05-08T23:47:19  <sipa> or at least, not only for that reason
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