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 21 2020-07-23T00:44:56  <ariard> sipa: yeah no hurry for 19184, better to favor 18044 follow-ups/integrations
 22 2020-07-23T00:45:16  <ariard> and I still need to dig into the fuzzer coverage
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 29 2020-07-23T00:59:39  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sipa opened pull request #19569: Enable fetching of orphan parents from wtxid peers (master...202007_wtxid_followup) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19569
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 61 2020-07-23T03:23:16  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] meshcollider pushed 5 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/ccef10261efc...9d4b3d86b694
 62 2020-07-23T03:23:16  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 27b2766 Andrew Chow: walletdb: Move BerkeleyDatabase::Flush(true) to Close()
 63 2020-07-23T03:23:17  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 71d28e7 Andrew Chow: walletdb: Introduce AddRef and RemoveRef functions
 64 2020-07-23T03:23:18  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2179dbc Andrew Chow: walletdb: Add BerkeleyDatabase::Open dummy function
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 67 2020-07-23T03:23:34  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] meshcollider merged pull request #19334: wallet: Introduce WalletDatabase abstract class (master...bdb-add-walletdb) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19334
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 70 2020-07-23T03:25:46  <achow101> \o/
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146 2020-07-23T08:34:37  <fanquake> #proposedmeetingtopic:  tag rc1
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151 2020-07-23T08:53:58  <fanquake> Just realized this should have been _release_ rc1
152 2020-07-23T08:54:30  <fanquake> Has obviously already been tagged, and got 4-5 sigs on the signed  asserts
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168 2020-07-23T10:05:30  <achow101> Might not be at the meeting today, so #19335 for my hi prio
169 2020-07-23T10:05:32  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19335 | wallet: Cleanup and separate BerkeleyDatabase and BerkeleyBatch by achow101 · Pull Request #19335 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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182 2020-07-23T10:42:13  <elichai2> How stable are blocks/*.dat files? (thinking of writing a parser so you could easily query questions over all the history)
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203 2020-07-23T11:35:04  <cato_> elichai2: what do you mean with stable?
204 2020-07-23T11:35:25  <elichai2> cato_: the format of the file
205 2020-07-23T11:37:25  <cato_> well, if you want to access data in blocks/*.dat you first need metadata from blocks/index/
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207 2020-07-23T11:39:43  <cato_> which is a key-value leveldb. more or less you use block hashes as keys and it'll tell you where in blocks/*.dat you'll find a particular block
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267 2020-07-23T14:41:51  <harding> elichai2: https://github.com/rustyrussell/bitcoin-iterate
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277 2020-07-23T15:06:50  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] instagibbs opened pull request #19572: ZMQ: Create "sequence" notifier, enabling client-side mempool tracking (master...zmq_sequence_all) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19572
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285 2020-07-23T15:33:10  <yanmaani> I have what seems to be a Heisenbug in my test; about 50% of the times I run it it gives an error. Are there any known non-deterministic footguns in the testing framework?
286 2020-07-23T15:33:18  <wumpus> elichai2: AFAIK the format of the block files has never been changed, there are no guarantees though, data files are not an external interface
287 2020-07-23T15:34:13  <wumpus> but to be honest I expect them to remain like this, it's simply a magic value then the block data, the metadata (as said) is in the database
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289 2020-07-23T15:34:55  <yanmaani> If I have two nodes, is it always guaranteed that the blocks will propagate on time?
290 2020-07-23T15:35:05  <yanmaani> Or is there a way to make them ensure everything is synced?
291 2020-07-23T15:36:00  * yanmaani thanks the channel for the rubberducking
292 2020-07-23T15:36:00  <elichai2> wumpus: thanks. I can assume the db metadata is also quite stable? (obviously no promises)
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294 2020-07-23T15:36:42  <elichai2> yanmaani: obv all network operations can be non-deterministic
295 2020-07-23T15:36:44  <wumpus> it's usually at least backward compatible
296 2020-07-23T15:38:33  <wumpus> yanmaani: if you have two nodes and they are connected then they should eventually sync
297 2020-07-23T15:38:46  <yanmaani> No, I found it
298 2020-07-23T15:38:57  <yanmaani> there's a specific call you can do to wait until they're all synced
299 2020-07-23T15:39:28  <wumpus> (there are some exceptions, e.g. a mainnet/testnet node that isn't up to date with the network won't let other nodes sync from it, but none that sould affect writing regtest tests)
300 2020-07-23T15:39:52  <wumpus> yes, you definitely need to wait for it, I just mean it eventually happens, there is no time guarantee
301 2020-07-23T15:41:12  <wumpus> fanquake: I'm going to upload rc1 executables, thanks for the reminder, I don't think this needs to be a meeting topic :)
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303 2020-07-23T15:42:37  <instagibbs> yanmaani, there's one for blocks, one for mempool, and one for both. Typically the last is sufficient, just can make tests slower if not necessary
304 2020-07-23T15:43:09  <instagibbs> pretty much any time your test "alternates" between two nodes it can be necessary for non-flakey behavior
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307 2020-07-23T15:55:24  <instagibbs> getting pretty consistent mempool_packages.py failures, which I don't think is my fault? https://travis-ci.org/github/bitcoin/bitcoin/jobs/711137623
308 2020-07-23T15:58:00  <wumpus> rc1 binaries up https://bitcoincore.org/bin/bitcoin-core-0.20.1/test.rc1/
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311 2020-07-23T16:12:07  <instagibbs> actually could very well be my fault/my PR exposing that issue, nevermind
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314 2020-07-23T16:14:22  <troygiorshev> instagibbs: fwiw that test passes on master on my machine
315 2020-07-23T16:17:31  <instagibbs> yeah no it's definitely my fault, just didn't see the connection until just now
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319 2020-07-23T16:25:01  <jeremyrubin> elichai2: there are some decent parsers that exist rn. format is stable, but iirc you still need to filter to handle connection logic.
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323 2020-07-23T16:27:14  <sipa> wumpus, elichai2: the only major changes to the disk format were permitting out-of-order blocks since 0.10, and obviously segwit in 0
324 2020-07-23T16:27:18  <sipa> .13
325 2020-07-23T16:27:34  <sipa> s/major /g
326 2020-07-23T16:27:52  <sipa> i think those may actually be the only changes ever
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328 2020-07-23T16:30:54  *** bitcoin-git has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
329 2020-07-23T16:30:55  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 1 commit to 0.20: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/cac7a9809a3d...58feb9ecb647
330 2020-07-23T16:30:55  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/0.20 58feb9e Wladimir J. van der Laan: doc: Add changelog and authors to release notes for 0.20.1
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332 2020-07-23T16:31:47  <wumpus> sipa: yes, exactly
333 2020-07-23T16:35:59  *** bitcoin-git has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
334 2020-07-23T16:36:00  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 4 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/9d4b3d86b694...6ee36a263c5a
335 2020-07-23T16:36:00  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 62fe6aa Hennadii Stepanov: net: Add -networkactive option
336 2020-07-23T16:36:01  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 3c58129 Hennadii Stepanov: net: Log network activity status change unconditionally
337 2020-07-23T16:36:02  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2aac093 Hennadii Stepanov: test: Add test coverage for -networkactive option
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340 2020-07-23T16:36:19  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #19473: net: Add -networkactive option  (master...200709-setnet) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19473
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344 2020-07-23T16:42:41  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/6ee36a263c5a...f4cfa6d01900
345 2020-07-23T16:42:41  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master eb682c5 Russell Yanofsky: util: Add ReadSettings and WriteSettings functions
346 2020-07-23T16:42:42  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 9c69cfe Russell Yanofsky: Add <datadir>/settings.json persistent settings storage.
347 2020-07-23T16:42:43  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master f4cfa6d MarcoFalke: Merge #15935: Add <datadir>/settings.json persistent settings storage
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351 2020-07-23T16:44:24  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #15935: Add <datadir>/settings.json persistent settings storage (master...pr/rwset) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/15935
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359 2020-07-23T16:55:40  <somethingsomethi> #proposedmeetingtopic taproot in 0.20
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362 2020-07-23T17:11:49  *** bitcoin-git has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
363 2020-07-23T17:11:50  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jonatack closed pull request #19405: rpc, cli: add network in/out connections to `getnetworkinfo` and `-getinfo` (master...in-and-out-connections) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19405
364 2020-07-23T17:11:51  *** bitcoin-git has left #bitcoin-core-dev
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366 2020-07-23T17:14:25  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jonatack closed pull request #19455: rpc generate: print useful help and error message (master...rpc-generate-helpful-error_message) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19455
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369 2020-07-23T17:15:51  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jonatack closed pull request #19397: test: resyncing to tip of blocks generated after invalidateblock (master...p2p-invalidateblock-tests) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19397
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371 2020-07-23T17:16:29  <jonatack> Cleaning out stuff with no ACKs to make room for the new.
372 2020-07-23T17:16:49  <wumpus> jonatack: fwiw I just didn't get around to reviewing #19405 again in detail yet, I'm definitely not against it
373 2020-07-23T17:16:51  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19405 | rpc, cli: add network in/out connections to `getnetworkinfo` and `-getinfo` by jonatack · Pull Request #19405 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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377 2020-07-23T17:22:46  <wumpus> of course it's up to you if you close your PRs or not, but it might make sense to ask for more review instead, things have just been a bit slow for a while with regard to review compared to the number of PRs submitted
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383 2020-07-23T17:38:28  <jonatack> wumpus: thanks, there are more interesting things i want to work on and don't want to encumber the too-high PR stack with proposals that aren't "hell yes" or have more than a handful of PRs open
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386 2020-07-23T17:40:52  <jonatack> also, i think modding your script into a custom dashboard i'm using to observe connections in much more detail by type and eviction criteria made just having in/out seem a little pale :)
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391 2020-07-23T17:44:30  <wumpus> Ok :)
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394 2020-07-23T17:51:37  <fjahr> jonatack: maybe 19405 can still be marked as "up for grabs"?
395 2020-07-23T17:54:12  *** Highway61 has quit IRC
396 2020-07-23T17:56:57  <jonatack> fjahr: sgtm
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412 2020-07-23T19:00:20  <wumpus> #startmeeting
413 2020-07-23T19:00:20  <lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Jul 23 19:00:20 2020 UTC.  The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
414 2020-07-23T19:00:20  <lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
415 2020-07-23T19:00:25  *** arowser has quit IRC
416 2020-07-23T19:01:22  <sipa> hi
417 2020-07-23T19:01:28  <wumpus> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag provoostenator aj Chris_Stewart_5 dongcarl gwillen jamesob ken281221 ryanofsky gleb moneyball kvaciral ariard digi_james
418 2020-07-23T19:01:29  <wumpus> amiti fjahr jeremyrubin lightlike emilengler jonatack hebasto jb55 elichai2
419 2020-07-23T19:01:37  <meshcollider> hi
420 2020-07-23T19:01:40  <jeremyrubin> hi
421 2020-07-23T19:01:52  <jonasschnelli> Hi
422 2020-07-23T19:01:54  <luke-jr> hi
423 2020-07-23T19:01:58  <fjahr> hi
424 2020-07-23T19:02:04  <jeremyrubin> hi
425 2020-07-23T19:02:10  <amiti> hi
426 2020-07-23T19:02:12  <jkczyz> hi
427 2020-07-23T19:02:20  <phantomcircuit> hi
428 2020-07-23T19:02:36  <ariard> hi
429 2020-07-23T19:02:42  <instagibbs> hi
430 2020-07-23T19:02:46  <pinheadmz> hi
431 2020-07-23T19:02:53  <wumpus> one proposed meeting topic for this week: taproot in 0.20 (somethingsomethi)
432 2020-07-23T19:02:54  <aj> hi
433 2020-07-23T19:03:15  <somethingsomethi> hi
434 2020-07-23T19:03:25  <wumpus> any last-minute topics?
435 2020-07-23T19:03:30  <sipa> given that 0.20 is already released, this seems hard
436 2020-07-23T19:03:42  <kanzure> hi
437 2020-07-23T19:03:42  <luke-jr> sipa: 0.20.2
438 2020-07-23T19:03:48  <meshcollider> 8:34 PM <fanquake> #proposedmeetingtopic:  tag rc1
439 2020-07-23T19:03:50  <wumpus> 0.20.0 (and 0.20.1) have been almost released
440 2020-07-23T19:04:06  *** arowser has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
441 2020-07-23T19:04:16  <somethingsomethi> yes
442 2020-07-23T19:04:23  <somethingsomethi> let me explain
443 2020-07-23T19:04:34  <somethingsomethi> This is something that came up in the taproot-activation channel: When could we actually start an activation cycle?
444 2020-07-23T19:04:40  <wumpus> meshcollider: that's already done, nothing to discuss about that in the meeting I think?
445 2020-07-23T19:04:44  <jeremyrubin> somethingsomethi: usually we wait till the actual topic is switched to
446 2020-07-23T19:04:49  <somethingsomethi> ok
447 2020-07-23T19:04:58  <jnewbery> hi
448 2020-07-23T19:05:02  <meshcollider> wumpus: Yeah I'm confused too haha dw
449 2020-07-23T19:05:02  <aj> wumpus: he meant release not tag
450 2020-07-23T19:05:10  <meshcollider> Isn't it already released?
451 2020-07-23T19:05:11  <wumpus> aj: that's also been done
452 2020-07-23T19:05:14  *** promag_ has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
453 2020-07-23T19:05:20  <wumpus> not at the time he posted that
454 2020-07-23T19:05:31  <meshcollider> 3:58 AM <wumpus> rc1 binaries up https://bitcoincore.org/bin/bitcoin-core-0.20.1/test.rc1/
455 2020-07-23T19:05:37  <meshcollider> \o/
456 2020-07-23T19:05:39  <wumpus> ya
457 2020-07-23T19:05:50  <wumpus> #topic High priority for review
458 2020-07-23T19:05:53  <meshcollider> Easy topic then ;)
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460 2020-07-23T19:05:58  *** promag_ is now known as promag
461 2020-07-23T19:06:06  <promag> hi
462 2020-07-23T19:06:09  <meshcollider> achow101 wanted #19335 on HP
463 2020-07-23T19:06:11  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19335 | wallet: Cleanup and separate BerkeleyDatabase and BerkeleyBatch by achow101 · Pull Request #19335 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
464 2020-07-23T19:06:19  <wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8 11 blockers,  1 bugfix, 3 chasing concept ACK
465 2020-07-23T19:06:26  <troygiorshev> hi
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467 2020-07-23T19:07:18  <jeremyrubin> I'll add #19478 as a blocker for me (I don't have any currently slotted)
468 2020-07-23T19:07:21  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19478 | Remove CTxMempool::mapLinks data structure member by JeremyRubin · Pull Request #19478 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
469 2020-07-23T19:07:39  <wumpus> meshcollider:added
470 2020-07-23T19:08:25  <wumpus> jeremyrubin: well if it is a blocker for you it should be added as blocker, if not not, it's not like everyone needs to have a blocker slotted every week :)
471 2020-07-23T19:09:10  <jnewbery> I'd like to make some progress on #19398. The first PR in that sequence is #19472 so perhaps that could be added to high priority?
472 2020-07-23T19:09:11  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19398 | Move remaining application layer data to net processing · Issue #19398 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
473 2020-07-23T19:09:16  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19472 | [net processing] Reduce cs_main scope in MaybeDiscourageAndDisconnect() by jnewbery · Pull Request #19472 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
474 2020-07-23T19:09:22  <jeremyrubin> There's like 70 commits worth of other work that is queued up pending on progress on similar stuff for like the last 6-9 months
475 2020-07-23T19:09:53  <sipa> jeremyrubin: ok, so it's a blocker; no other justification needed :)
476 2020-07-23T19:10:25  <jeremyrubin> Those could be all parallelized I guess, but I don't want to overwhelm review
477 2020-07-23T19:11:19  <wumpus> jeremyrubin: jnewbery  added
478 2020-07-23T19:11:46  <jnewbery> wumpus: dank
479 2020-07-23T19:11:50  <jeremyrubin> tx
480 2020-07-23T19:12:57  <wumpus> #topic taproot in 0.20 (somethingsomethi)
481 2020-07-23T19:13:28  <somethingsomethi> Like I said, this came up in the taproot-activation channel: When could we really start an activation cycle?
482 2020-07-23T19:13:43  <somethingsomethi> Going by the segwit playbook, the activation params would be released in 0.21.1, which is probably about 8 months from now, so some people were wondering if this could be shortened
483 2020-07-23T19:13:56  <wumpus> welcome btw somethingsomethi I don't remember seeing you in a meeting before
484 2020-07-23T19:14:11  <somethingsomethi> yeah, made this account just two hours ago :-)
485 2020-07-23T19:14:28  <somethingsomethi> I'm really more trying to pass messages between irc channels
486 2020-07-23T19:14:41  <luke-jr> I was expecting a 0.20.2 with it, but apparently there's a dependency on wtxid relay?
487 2020-07-23T19:15:36  <wumpus> I think the question of whether to backport it to 0.20.x is completely independent of shortening anything
488 2020-07-23T19:15:51  <jeremyrubin> I think there's sort of a tradeoff; how incompatible is master with 0.20 right now v.s. how incompatible will 0.21 be with 0.20?
489 2020-07-23T19:15:51  <somethingsomethi> for the purposes of the taproot-activation channel, it would be interesting to know how much time there is before anything starts
490 2020-07-23T19:16:02  <luke-jr> wumpus: well, if it didn't have the wtxid dependency, we could release 0.20.2 in a few weeks with it…
491 2020-07-23T19:16:05  <wumpus> I think the expectation is to backport it to that branch when it's ready
492 2020-07-23T19:16:22  <luke-jr> (assuming the usual requirements get met quickly)
493 2020-07-23T19:16:33  <instagibbs> wumpus, that meaning 0.20(handwaving away deps)
494 2020-07-23T19:16:35  <instagibbs> ?
495 2020-07-23T19:16:43  <jeremyrubin> wumpus: or maybe backport it to the current major release/last major release when it's ready
496 2020-07-23T19:16:45  <instagibbs> or whatever branch is ready by then
497 2020-07-23T19:16:54  <wumpus> jeremyrubin: yes
498 2020-07-23T19:17:01  <jeremyrubin> +1, here's to hoping that does mean 0.20 tho
499 2020-07-23T19:17:18  <wumpus> in any case it shouldn't end up in a .0 first
500 2020-07-23T19:17:38  <sipa> i think it's very reasonable that the consensus logic for it goes into a .0
501 2020-07-23T19:17:48  <instagibbs> activation I presume he meant
502 2020-07-23T19:17:48  <sipa> and then activation goes into a .1
503 2020-07-23T19:17:50  <luke-jr> I suppose another option would be to just start the 0.21.0 release process after 0.20.1 gets finalised, so that 0.21.1 could be sooner
504 2020-07-23T19:18:01  <wumpus> I mean the actual activation
505 2020-07-23T19:18:01  <sipa> the real question here is when the consensus logic can be in a release, as that's a lower bound
506 2020-07-23T19:18:15  <wumpus> of course ,preparations can go in sooner
507 2020-07-23T19:18:38  <jeremyrubin> I'm somewhat of the opinion that if a release cycle schedule is holding up when we think a consensus thing gets put out then it makes sense to shift around the release windows, so i agree with luke-jr
508 2020-07-23T19:18:55  <wumpus> but is this really a problem right now?
509 2020-07-23T19:19:08  <jeremyrubin> mac recently released an OS with two version numbers btw so that, e.g., 20.2 is identical to 21.1
510 2020-07-23T19:19:28  <sipa> if there is an expectation to backport the consensus logic to a 0.20 branch, we could take some care to avoid having too many preparation changes in master first
511 2020-07-23T19:19:31  <jeremyrubin> wumpus: in the ##taproot-activation discussion, yes
512 2020-07-23T19:19:38  <wumpus> I'd prefer not to shift along major version schedules too much
513 2020-07-23T19:19:40  <luke-jr> wumpus: I think generally there's a sense that we should have at least a 1 year timeout, and waiting a year before even starting that annoys people :p
514 2020-07-23T19:20:28  <sipa> i wasn't expecting taproot in a 0.20 branch- but i also sympethize with the argument that consensus changes, when reviewed and agreed upon, shouldn't be too strongly affected by bitcoin core's release schedule
515 2020-07-23T19:20:56  <wumpus> in any case, the release schedule for 0.21 is in #18947, is this a problem? do you think it should be moved backward or forward?
516 2020-07-23T19:20:57  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/18947 | Release schedule for 0.21.0 · Issue #18947 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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518 2020-07-23T19:21:19  <jeremyrubin> I think also that if 0.21 has a bunch of other changes, then people may not upgrade out of major upgrade conservatism
519 2020-07-23T19:21:31  <luke-jr> wumpus: if we're not backporting to 0.20, the sooner 0.21.0 is released the better IMO
520 2020-07-23T19:21:39  <jeremyrubin> So we might be further lengthening adoption until, e.g., 0.22 major
521 2020-07-23T19:22:26  <wumpus> what is the major difference between 0.20 and the curent master branch that you think warrants an early 0.21 release?
522 2020-07-23T19:22:43  <luke-jr> wumpus: my thought is, as soon as 0.20.1 is released and Taproot logic merged, move the 2020-10-01 date to the next day
523 2020-07-23T19:22:59  <jeremyrubin> wumpus: generally I think most end users are woefully confused about what our version number system means.
524 2020-07-23T19:23:02  <luke-jr> wumpus: this would be if wtxid relay + Taproot is seen as too big to backport
525 2020-07-23T19:23:13  <wumpus> we've never based releases on features
526 2020-07-23T19:23:33  <somethingsomethi> except segwit wallet release :-)
527 2020-07-23T19:23:34  <instagibbs> didn't we do it for segwit(and wumpus got upset :) )
528 2020-07-23T19:23:37  <sipa> luke-jr: the goal is having wtxid _deployed on the network_ before a new segwit softfork
529 2020-07-23T19:23:40  <wumpus> every 6 months a new major version is released, minor versions are released for bugfixes and softforks
530 2020-07-23T19:23:41  <wumpus> that's it
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532 2020-07-23T19:23:53  <luke-jr> sipa: yes, that'd be why releasing 0.21.0 ASAP?
533 2020-07-23T19:24:02  <sipa> that seems reckles
534 2020-07-23T19:24:22  <luke-jr> sipa: how?
535 2020-07-23T19:24:22  <aj> sipa: i was thinking we should consider not relaying txs with taproot inputs except to wtxid peers
536 2020-07-23T19:24:30  <wumpus> I don't see the need for hurry here to be honest
537 2020-07-23T19:24:36  <luke-jr> sipa: I don't mean bypassing the release process, just starting it sooner.
538 2020-07-23T19:24:48  <sipa> luke-jr: sure, but why?
539 2020-07-23T19:25:00  <cfields_> wumpus: +1
540 2020-07-23T19:25:04  <wumpus> I don't think 'users want this sooner' is a good reason, quality before everything
541 2020-07-23T19:25:19  <jeremyrubin> doesn't prove anything but I did two twitter polls https://twitter.com/JeremyRubin/status/1283873417301639169 and https://twitter.com/JeremyRubin/status/1283879638435950594 which shows people don't really understand versioning fwiw
542 2020-07-23T19:25:26  <luke-jr> wumpus: the release schedule isn't a matter of quality, though, is it?
543 2020-07-23T19:25:46  <sipa> luke-jr: agree, but it's a matter of development cadence
544 2020-07-23T19:25:55  <wumpus> I'm fairly sure a predictable schedule helps there
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546 2020-07-23T19:26:12  <wumpus> if people on twitter don't understand the release schedule, explain it to them
547 2020-07-23T19:26:45  <jeremyrubin> i tried and they told me that I'm trying to attack bitcoin :p
548 2020-07-23T19:26:50  <luke-jr> I suppose I could put it in Knots..
549 2020-07-23T19:26:58  <wumpus> sigh
550 2020-07-23T19:26:59  <somethingsomethi> so 0.21.1 around feb it is then?
551 2020-07-23T19:27:02  <luke-jr> was planning to wait in case the protocol has any further changes though
552 2020-07-23T19:27:07  <wumpus> that sounds like just riling up things
553 2020-07-23T19:27:17  <luke-jr> wumpus: ?
554 2020-07-23T19:27:22  <sipa> if there is a strong desire to have taproot earlier in a bitcoin core release, i think we should prefer backporting to 0.20 over accelerating 0.21
555 2020-07-23T19:27:30  <wumpus> "that I"m trying to attack bitcoin" I mean
556 2020-07-23T19:27:32  <luke-jr> ah
557 2020-07-23T19:27:35  <instagibbs> sipa, ok that's fair enough
558 2020-07-23T19:27:37  <sipa> (whether that desire exists, i have no opinion about)
559 2020-07-23T19:27:44  <wumpus> there's lots of trolls on twitter we know that
560 2020-07-23T19:27:44  <luke-jr> sipa: so two backports?
561 2020-07-23T19:27:56  <luke-jr> sipa: one with wtxid relay, then the next with Taproot?
562 2020-07-23T19:28:22  <sipa> luke-jr: i don't have a good answer here -i feel that wtxid deployment will take way longer than people here seem to tolerate for taproot
563 2020-07-23T19:28:31  <sipa> regardless of what releases it goes into
564 2020-07-23T19:28:42  <sipa> as it takes sometimes ~years to get new releases deployed...
565 2020-07-23T19:28:45  <jeremyrubin> it also matches roconnor's complaints
566 2020-07-23T19:28:57  <luke-jr> well, at least then we can tell people "not enough wtxid relay users yet" if they whine about the delay? :p
567 2020-07-23T19:28:59  <jeremyrubin> people should care much more about wtxid relay than taproot in some respects
568 2020-07-23T19:29:16  <sipa> wtxid doesn't really hurt until there are major relay policy changes
569 2020-07-23T19:29:21  <sipa> s/hurt/help/
570 2020-07-23T19:29:33  <wumpus> this is the first time I hear about wtxid relay being a problem for taproot
571 2020-07-23T19:29:43  <wumpus> if I knew this sooner I would not have merged it
572 2020-07-23T19:29:48  <ariard> we talked about it like 2 or 3 meeting away
573 2020-07-23T19:29:50  <luke-jr> wumpus: the lack of it is the problem..
574 2020-07-23T19:29:55  <ariard> when moneyball brought taproot topic
575 2020-07-23T19:30:12  <wumpus> we can still revert that PR I suppose though it sounds like a mess
576 2020-07-23T19:30:19  <sipa> wumpus: the opposite; wtxid is arguably required to be deployed on the network, before we can make major relay policy changes
577 2020-07-23T19:30:25  <sipa> (such as taproot would imply)
578 2020-07-23T19:30:32  <wumpus> ok
579 2020-07-23T19:30:38  <luke-jr> sdaftuar: is wtxid relay protocol stable? should we update the BIP to Proposed status?
580 2020-07-23T19:30:42  <sipa> or any script extension on top of segwit
581 2020-07-23T19:30:59  <ariard> luke-jr: it has been merged yesterday, sipa has some follow-ups needed
582 2020-07-23T19:31:18  <sipa> the follow-ups don't change the (specified part of) protocol
583 2020-07-23T19:31:25  <wumpus> so at least merging it is progress right?
584 2020-07-23T19:31:31  <sipa> yes, definitely
585 2020-07-23T19:31:43  <jeremyrubin> I think the problem is that people are proposing a 4 year rollout timeline for the soft fork, to be conservative. If we're not releasing any clients for that until february it's like 5 years. I think we're inviting controversy if we do that.
586 2020-07-23T19:32:11  <somethingsomethi> any guesstimate on how long the gap between wtxid and taproot would have to be?
587 2020-07-23T19:32:12  <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: ?
588 2020-07-23T19:32:19  <wumpus> february?
589 2020-07-23T19:32:32  <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: I don't see the community tolerating 4 years
590 2020-07-23T19:32:33  <somethingsomethi> *wtxid and taproot rollout
591 2020-07-23T19:32:36  <jeremyrubin> "proposed 0.21.1 release"
592 2020-07-23T19:32:44  <luke-jr> somethingsomethi: depends on how long it takes nodes to upgrade
593 2020-07-23T19:33:07  <somethingsomethi> luke-jr that's why I wrote guesstimate :-)
594 2020-07-23T19:33:09  <jeremyrubin> I don't see it being tolerated either, but I think that's what a decent number of people are expecting and proposing.
595 2020-07-23T19:33:43  <jeremyrubin> By being slow we end up inviting a big kerfuffle UASF thing again.
596 2020-07-23T19:33:50  <wumpus> I really dislike this discussion about tolerating, things are ready when they're ready
597 2020-07-23T19:34:03  <wumpus> it sounds like you're trying to pressure us and I really dislike this
598 2020-07-23T19:34:29  <ariard> You can build most of applications improved by schorr/taproot today (in hacky way though)
599 2020-07-23T19:34:35  <jeremyrubin> you can draw a line between what I'm expressing and what I'm relaying
600 2020-07-23T19:34:36  <somethingsomethi> It's not so much about pressure, if everyone agrees it's at least a year out, then at least we can plan accordingly
601 2020-07-23T19:34:37  <ariard> like ecdsa scriptless scripts
602 2020-07-23T19:34:46  <instagibbs> ariard, i.e., probably not at all :)
603 2020-07-23T19:35:00  <jeremyrubin> sorry if it's coming across as *me* pressuring
604 2020-07-23T19:35:11  <jeremyrubin> I agree with the "release when it's ready" mentality
605 2020-07-23T19:35:22  <wumpus> if you want to push this I'm going to quit as maintainer
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607 2020-07-23T19:36:13  <wumpus> I feel enough responsibility for this to not like if things like this get rushed
608 2020-07-23T19:36:38  <sipa> fwiw, i don't think there is much in master today that interacts with taproot, that would be hard to backport
609 2020-07-23T19:37:08  <sipa> i think the bigger question may be wtxid relay
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611 2020-07-23T19:37:35  <ariard> instagibbs: I disagree a bit, some people instead of complaining are building on ecdsa while envisioning to upgrade to schnorr
612 2020-07-23T19:37:40  <luke-jr> I guess I can look into backporting that
613 2020-07-23T19:37:41  <ariard> for their use-case, when ready
614 2020-07-23T19:37:48  <aj> sipa: updating secp in a backport would be large, but self-contained, so preumably fine?
615 2020-07-23T19:37:49  <jeremyrubin> sipa: I think we can reasonably release taproot without wtxid relay, no? Taproot blocksonly validation, don't accept things to mempool?
616 2020-07-23T19:37:50  <instagibbs> fantastic ariard
617 2020-07-23T19:37:55  <wumpus> FWIW I like taproot but this is not some shitcoin where we rush features  in to boost the price or something like that
618 2020-07-23T19:38:29  <sipa> jeremyrubin: ugh...
619 2020-07-23T19:38:33  <ariard> jeremryrubin: hmmm wouldn't this break compactblock?
620 2020-07-23T19:38:48  <sipa> aj: yes
621 2020-07-23T19:38:56  <luke-jr> ariard: no?
622 2020-07-23T19:39:05  <instagibbs> sipa, ok so you said it takes time for wtxid relay to propagate, how much time? Is this a hard blocker from even setting a signaling window?
623 2020-07-23T19:39:22  <jeremyrubin> sipa: I mean, whatever is less software work to get it so that clients can take a backport...
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626 2020-07-23T19:39:44  <luke-jr> instagibbs: IMO we shouldn't set a signaling window until at the very least Taproot is merged into master..
627 2020-07-23T19:39:45  <ariard> luke-jr: I mean loosing the propagation benefits of validating transaction before seeing them in a block?
628 2020-07-23T19:39:54  <instagibbs> luke-jr, right I assumed that
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630 2020-07-23T19:40:06  <instagibbs> I'm asking *bare* minimum
631 2020-07-23T19:40:17  <instagibbs> obviously things take time on top
632 2020-07-23T19:40:25  <luke-jr> ariard: sure, but that's true even without Taproot logic
633 2020-07-23T19:40:29  <jeremyrubin> ariard: the idea would be that wtxid can't be backported, so it's in 0.21. 0.20 gets degraded compactblock performance
634 2020-07-23T19:41:00  <jeremyrubin> luke-jr: good point, all old clients get degraded compactblock
635 2020-07-23T19:41:44  <sipa> instagibbs: i need to think about that
636 2020-07-23T19:41:56  <luke-jr> it would be interesting to split policy acceptance of Taproot, from Taproot consensus deployment
637 2020-07-23T19:42:07  <instagibbs> sipa, roger
638 2020-07-23T19:42:08  <cfields_> jeremyrubin: that sounds interesting to me. sipa: why "Ugh" to that?
639 2020-07-23T19:42:09  <ariard> that sounds a bit awful for network robustness, you will favor connections to upgraded nodes
640 2020-07-23T19:42:36  <luke-jr> ariard: there is no uniform network policy anyway, nor is the network dependent on that
641 2020-07-23T19:42:56  <sipa> well, the network won't actually have any taproot-spending transactions until activation, so i think anything before activation doesn't matter
642 2020-07-23T19:43:34  <jeremyrubin> instagibbs:  an interesting corollary of your point is it may be good to try to backport wtxid relay even earlier (e.g., 0.19 if possible) to boost those #'s
643 2020-07-23T19:43:47  <instagibbs> that might be too difficult/dangerous
644 2020-07-23T19:43:52  <instagibbs> (I dont know)
645 2020-07-23T19:44:32  <luke-jr> well, if we split Taproot consensus vs policy… we only need wtxid relay for policy, right?
646 2020-07-23T19:44:39  <ariard> luke-jr: I was thinking consequences on peer eviction/selection, if you degrade performances of a whole subset of them
647 2020-07-23T19:44:40  <aj> there's been a punch of p2p changes since 0.20 that will probably make backporting wtxid relay a bit hard at this point (not very hard if you just rewrite it; pretty annoying if you try cherry-picking/rebasing)
648 2020-07-23T19:44:42  <luke-jr> so that can proceed in parallel to the consensus/activation
649 2020-07-23T19:46:21  <sipa> luke-jr: i don't see how that is related to splitting anything
650 2020-07-23T19:46:27  <luke-jr> if activation happens ~a year from now, having only consensus logic in 0.20, and wtxid relay + Taproot policy only with 0.21+ seems fine?
651 2020-07-23T19:46:31  <sipa> relay of those relevant transactions won't happen until activation
652 2020-07-23T19:47:20  <luke-jr> sipa: right, which is why we don't need to sort relay issues until closer to activation
653 2020-07-23T19:47:28  <sipa> yes, i agree with that
654 2020-07-23T19:48:08  <luke-jr> we could start the Taproot activation process, and even in the worst case scenario (too few updated to 0.21) have it activate without changing the node policy
655 2020-07-23T19:48:18  <instagibbs> mmmm
656 2020-07-23T19:48:31  <sipa> wumpus: do we have any other topics?
657 2020-07-23T19:48:54  <sipa> i feel the part of the discussion relevant to bitcoin core's release process is over
658 2020-07-23T19:49:35  <wumpus> no, that was all
659 2020-07-23T19:49:37  <wumpus> #endmeeting
660 2020-07-23T19:49:37  <lightningbot> Meeting ended Thu Jul 23 19:49:37 2020 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
661 2020-07-23T19:49:37  <lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-07-23-19.00.html
662 2020-07-23T19:49:37  <lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-07-23-19.00.txt
663 2020-07-23T19:49:37  <lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-07-23-19.00.log.html
664 2020-07-23T19:50:45  <somethingsomethi> ok, so bottom line: There are a couple of interesting ideas, but probably it'll be 0.21.1, and relay might come some time after that. Is that about right?
665 2020-07-23T19:51:08  <sipa> relay after that? what?
666 2020-07-23T19:51:11  <aj> wtxid relay is already merged in master, so will be in 0.21.0
667 2020-07-23T19:51:24  <aj> (unless there's some horrible bug or something)
668 2020-07-23T19:51:32  <jeremyrubin> I think luke-jr is going to try to summarize in ##taproot-activation
669 2020-07-23T19:51:55  <instagibbs> I think a summary would be great, I think I grasped the main points at least
670 2020-07-23T19:52:01  <instagibbs> thanks for input sipa wumpus
671 2020-07-23T19:52:11  <luke-jr> yeah, I dropped 3 lines; feel free to add more if I forgot anything
672 2020-07-23T19:52:37  <luke-jr> somethingsomethi: the split of consensus/relay is only needed if we do deployment of Taproot on 0.20
673 2020-07-23T19:52:38  <ariard> for folks working on p2p, what's your opinon between transaction request overhaul or erlay getting first ?
674 2020-07-23T19:52:41  <somethingsomethi> sipa: I mean the first step could be just to activate the validation parts, but not relay transactions until wtxid is sufficiently widespread
675 2020-07-23T19:52:55  <ariard> (a gleb question who is away to decide on rebase order)
676 2020-07-23T19:52:58  <sipa> somethingsomethi: then what's the point?
677 2020-07-23T19:53:10  <sipa> "taproot is active, but you can't actually spend anything yet!"
678 2020-07-23T19:53:11  <somethingsomethi> luke-jr ah ok. I though it might be an option either way if wtixd uptake is too slow
679 2020-07-23T19:53:12  <aj> ariard: overhaul first was my thought
680 2020-07-23T19:53:35  <luke-jr> sipa: the point is to have the consensus side ready when the rest is
681 2020-07-23T19:54:01  <luke-jr> sipa: since the consensus side may have a long simply-waiting period for activation
682 2020-07-23T19:54:25  <jeremyrubin> realistically it will be like a year after activation before there's any big uptake on taproot anyways
683 2020-07-23T19:54:26  <sipa> sure, but having it active before it can be used due to relay reasons is pointless
684 2020-07-23T19:54:27  <somethingsomethi> sipa: Well, sure. You could look at it as a way to de-risk deployment, but yeah, it wouldn't be overly useful
685 2020-07-23T19:54:46  <somethingsomethi> at least the second part wouldn't require so much coordination though
686 2020-07-23T19:54:59  <jeremyrubin> clients can reject invalid spending blocks which is super useful for deployed infra
687 2020-07-23T19:55:06  <luke-jr> sipa: hopefully 0.21 will be widespread enough before the actual activation occurs
688 2020-07-23T19:55:38  <instagibbs> It could theoretically happen if phased consensus->relay deployment had the 2nd part delayed, so important to think about? Meanwhile people can still uptake
689 2020-07-23T19:56:06  <sipa> aj, ariard: if erlay is done without the 128-bit txids (which perhaps it should), i think it's almost orthogonal to the tx request overhaul
690 2020-07-23T19:56:22  <sipa> as erlay would reuse inv/getdata for the final stage in that setup
691 2020-07-23T19:56:56  <aj> sipa: oh no, are you attacking my excuse for not reviewing erlay yet?
692 2020-07-23T19:57:19  <sipa> aj: thanks for reminding _me_ i don't have an excuse not to review it!
693 2020-07-23T19:57:27  <ariard> I think the last erlay version doesn't have 128-bit txids and new invtx/gettx compare to bip
694 2020-07-23T19:59:39  <instagibbs> aj, "I'm lazy" <--- good enough
695 2020-07-23T19:59:51  <instagibbs> ariard, you're correct(at least last time i talked to gleb)
696 2020-07-23T20:00:44  <aj> instagibbs: too generic
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716 2020-07-23T21:02:11  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] luke-jr opened pull request #19573: [WIP] Replace unused BIP 9 logic with BIP 8 (master...bip8) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19573
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739 2020-07-23T22:10:37  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] promag opened pull request #19578: wallet: Avoid duplicate checks on signing failure (master...2020-07-signtransaction) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19578
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746 2020-07-23T22:54:40  <fanquake> wumpus: thanks
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757 2020-07-23T23:46:04  <yanmaani> What's the deal with named parameters? Why are they so rarely used? Were they added recently?
758 2020-07-23T23:46:56  <sipa> define rarely used?
759 2020-07-23T23:47:21  <yanmaani> Compared to Electrum for example. Most RPC calls take positional args.
760 2020-07-23T23:47:48  <sipa> all RPCs accept both
761 2020-07-23T23:48:20  <sipa> what people actually use i don't know
762 2020-07-23T23:48:31  <yanmaani> oh ok, thanks
763 2020-07-23T23:49:49  <sipa> since version 0.14, fwiw
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