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 12 2020-09-03T00:29:51  <achow101> #proposedmeetingtopic conducting a large scale usage survey
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 17 2020-09-03T01:39:51  <luke-jr> inb4 achow101 proposes telemetry
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 19 2020-09-03T01:40:27  <luke-jr> (actually, something I've considered for Knots, but only opt-in and strictly over Tor)
 20 2020-09-03T01:40:49  <achow101> telemetry bad, opt in survey that is not built into the software good
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 31 2020-09-03T02:41:16  <luke-jr> achow101: not sure what difference it makes if it's builtin or web
 32 2020-09-03T02:41:26  <luke-jr> people might not know about the latter
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 35 2020-09-03T03:22:17  <achow101> built in would inherently skew the data towards those who have upgraded
 36 2020-09-03T03:22:32  <achow101> and the whole privacy phone home thing too
 37 2020-09-03T03:22:43  <achow101> gets too close to telemetry
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 41 2020-09-03T03:37:26  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/c157a5069454...2d4574aad84a
 42 2020-09-03T03:37:26  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 9bdde3c eugene: build: add /usr/local/ to LCOV_FILTER_PATTERN for macOS builds
 43 2020-09-03T03:37:27  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2d4574a fanquake: Merge #19861: build: add /usr/local/ to LCOV_FILTER_PATTERN for macOS buil...
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 46 2020-09-03T03:37:46  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #19861: build: add /usr/local/ to LCOV_FILTER_PATTERN for macOS builds (master...macos_lcov_0902) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19861
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 48 2020-09-03T03:40:11  <luke-jr> achow101: even over Tor?
 49 2020-09-03T03:41:42  <achow101> doing it over tor would have a number of attached issues, like the fact that we would need to package tor with the binary and then start it up
 50 2020-09-03T03:41:55  <achow101> but I think just the idea in general would scare away many privacy conscious people
 51 2020-09-03T03:42:04  <luke-jr> hmm
 52 2020-09-03T03:42:11  <achow101> sure it isn't telemetry, but it's pretty close
 53 2020-09-03T03:42:59  <luke-jr> you want close? "you just used a feature we don't think anyone uses. want it to remain usable? please send us an email about what you used it for!" :P
 54 2020-09-03T03:43:36  <achow101> lol
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 56 2020-09-03T03:43:45  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/2d4574aad84a...9876ab8c74ef
 57 2020-09-03T03:43:46  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master c4be50f fanquake: remove usage of boost::bind
 58 2020-09-03T03:43:46  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master e36f802 fanquake: lint: add C++ code linter
 59 2020-09-03T03:43:47  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 9876ab8 fanquake: Merge #19844: remove usage of boost::bind
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 62 2020-09-03T03:44:04  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #19844: remove usage of boost::bind (master...sneak_boost_bind) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19844
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 64 2020-09-03T03:44:12  <achow101> well one of the things I would want to ask in the survey is how many utxos are in people's wallets
 65 2020-09-03T03:44:24  <luke-jr> people shouldn't know that O.o
 66 2020-09-03T03:44:25  <achow101> as that would help us figure out how to target the coin selection algo
 67 2020-09-03T03:44:32  <luke-jr> not to mention way too invasive
 68 2020-09-03T03:44:43  <luke-jr> I was thinking just -salvagewallet usage
 69 2020-09-03T03:44:46  <achow101> but that can be invasive, and if people aren't comfortable with answering, they don't need to
 70 2020-09-03T03:45:11  <achow101> It wouldn't be looking for an exact number, just within a bucket, and the buckets can be large
 71 2020-09-03T03:45:34  <luke-jr> still, we'd need to collect that info for them
 72 2020-09-03T03:45:37  <achow101> i just want order of magnitude. are we dealing with wallets that have 10s of utxos, or 10s of thousands, that kinda thing
 73 2020-09-03T03:46:06  <luke-jr> we'd be teaching them to run RPC commands they don't understand
 74 2020-09-03T03:46:18  <achow101> you can actually find out via the gui
 75 2020-09-03T03:46:31  <achow101> if you enable coin control, there's a dialog that lists all your utxos. selecting them all gives a count
 76 2020-09-03T03:46:42  <luke-jr> yeah, but that's still something they won't understand
 77 2020-09-03T03:46:47  <luke-jr> not much better
 78 2020-09-03T03:47:07  <gwillen> it seems like in general coin selection works pretty well for realistic numbers of UTXOs in personal wallets, yeah?
 79 2020-09-03T03:47:21  <luke-jr> I wouldn't know, I always hand pick
 80 2020-09-03T03:47:28  <achow101> gwillen: but what's realistic?
 81 2020-09-03T03:47:28  <gwillen> it only strains for wallets that have a billion tiny UTXOs, which usually means automated
 82 2020-09-03T03:47:40  <gwillen> I mean, an amount that a person could generate easily doing transactions by hand
 83 2020-09-03T03:47:44  <gwillen> rather than like, hosting a donation server
 84 2020-09-03T03:48:04  <gwillen> (just thinking that the latter are probably best polled by different means because they are probably business)
 85 2020-09-03T03:48:54  <luke-jr> gotta get up early, ttyl
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 87 2020-09-03T04:08:18  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 4 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/9876ab8c74ef...136fe4c5e9fb
 88 2020-09-03T04:08:19  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master facb41b MarcoFalke: test: Remove unused p2p_lock in VersionBitsWarningTest
 89 2020-09-03T04:08:19  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fad2794 MarcoFalke: test: Rename wait until helper to wait_until_helper
 90 2020-09-03T04:08:20  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa1cd9e MarcoFalke: test: Remove unused lock arg from BitcoinTestFramework.wait_until
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 93 2020-09-03T04:08:39  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #19816: test: Rename wait until helper to wait_until_helper (master...2008-testWaithelper) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19816
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101 2020-09-03T04:47:52  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/136fe4c5e9fb...68f0ab26bca8
102 2020-09-03T04:47:52  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 544e12a Andrew Chow: walletdb: Add KeyFilterFn to ReadKeyValue
103 2020-09-03T04:47:53  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 0bbe26a Andrew Chow: wallet: filter for keys only before record deser in salvage
104 2020-09-03T04:47:54  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 68f0ab2 fanquake: Merge #19805: wallet: Avoid deserializing unused records when salvaging
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107 2020-09-03T04:48:10  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #19805: wallet: Avoid deserializing unused records when salvaging (master...avoid-salvage-deser) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19805
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167 2020-09-03T07:59:04  <vasild> sipa: gleb: wrt https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/907#issuecomment-686053435
168 2020-09-03T07:59:10  <vasild> why "but relay to some extent to the level (2) ones in addition to that" ?
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170 2020-09-03T08:00:02  <vasild> why care to relay to (2)?
171 2020-09-03T08:00:48  <vasild> if (2) guys care/want/need addr messages, they can always ask for it themselves via getaddr, no?
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177 2020-09-03T08:18:23  <sipa> vasild: well that's the point, i argue we shouldn't have (2)
178 2020-09-03T08:18:42  <vasild> I agree
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180 2020-09-03T08:19:12  <vasild> I think it should be just two options: "I want" and "I don't want" unasked addr messages
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182 2020-09-03T08:20:16  <vasild> because if it is known that implementations prefer to relay to (3) over (2), or relay more to (3), then a (2) relay has incentive to pretend to be (3)
183 2020-09-03T08:24:34  <sipa> vasild: my worry is the opposite- an attacker who wants to learn your connectivity could connect many times, as (2)
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185 2020-09-03T08:25:21  <sipa> because we'd uniformly relay to all  (3)s, but then in _addition_ still relay to (2) giving them a better than proportional view of our activity
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187 2020-09-03T08:26:02  <sipa> (i'm hypothesizing about how (2) would work here, of course, as it doesn't exist and imho shouldn't exist... but i can't imagine any other useful rhing to do with it)
188 2020-09-03T08:26:17  <vasild> so, two distinct reasons to have just two options - (1) and (3) ;)
189 2020-09-03T08:26:46  <sipa> right
190 2020-09-03T08:35:13  <vasild> From Gleb's email: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2019-October/017428.html "I want to suggest making explicit whether a node promises to participate in address relay by a) forwarding unsolicited messages (I work on a somewhat related issue in this PR [2]) , and, b) responding to GETADDR."
191 2020-09-03T08:35:43  <vasild> I have been wondering if those two deserve a separate BIP or should be sneaked into BIP155
192 2020-09-03T08:36:22  <vasild> that a) should be "I want / I don't want unsolicited addr messages"
193 2020-09-03T08:37:37  <vasild> and maybe b) deserves a service bit so that nodes that plan to ask GETADDR from their peers can chose to connect only to such peers (rather than discover that the peer they already connected to cannot reply to GETADDR)
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196 2020-09-03T08:40:16  <vasild> it would be undesirable to have some SPV client connect-disconnect in a loop until they find a node that can reply to getaddr
197 2020-09-03T08:42:19  <vasild> Maybe a) can be sneaked into BIP155 as a boolean flag to sendaddrv2 and b) done outside of BIP155 via a service bit?
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203 2020-09-03T09:03:16  <sipa> vasild: well is there any software right now that one may xonnect to that can't respond to getaddr?
204 2020-09-03T09:04:04  <vasild> I am not 100% sure, but I gather that SPV nodes don't keep an addr database, so maybe they are such ones?
205 2020-09-03T09:07:17  <sipa> you also can't connect to them
206 2020-09-03T09:07:35  <sipa> they only make outbound connections afaik
207 2020-09-03T09:14:14  <vasild> hmm, then maybe "b) responding to GETADDR." is not needed? I am not familiar enough to judge, Gleb?
208 2020-09-03T09:19:29  <gleb> vasild: I think I wanted to emphasize while b) is always true (I guess?), a) is something that may wary. You are right that my sentence has redundancy. It may be reduced to "whether a node promises to participate in forwarding unsolicited messages".
209 2020-09-03T09:21:10  <vasild> I se
210 2020-09-03T09:21:11  <vasild> e
211 2020-09-03T09:21:30  <sipa> f
212 2020-09-03T09:22:25  <fanquake> g
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223 2020-09-03T10:35:28  <gleb> Does anyone know why we have "Add small amount of random noise before connection to avoid synchronization" when connecting to feelers? There is already a randomized (poisson) interval between creating feelers, so this seems unnecessary?
224 2020-09-03T10:35:57  <gleb> I privately messaged ethan on irc, but he didn't respond
225 2020-09-03T10:42:11  <wumpus> #19478 seems close to being mergable
226 2020-09-03T10:42:14  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19478 | Remove CTxMempool::mapLinks data structure member by JeremyRubin · Pull Request #19478 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
227 2020-09-03T10:42:26  <wumpus> gleb: no, no idea, sorry
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234 2020-09-03T11:29:36  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 11 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/68f0ab26bca8...620ac8c47539
235 2020-09-03T11:29:38  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 8d6ff46 Amiti Uttarwar: scripted-diff: Rename `OUTBOUND` ConnectionType to `OUTBOUND_FULL_RELAY`
236 2020-09-03T11:29:38  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master a6ab1e8 Amiti Uttarwar: [net] Remove unnecessary default args on OpenNetworkConnection
237 2020-09-03T11:29:39  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master dff16b1 Amiti Uttarwar: [refactor] Restructure logic to check for addr relay.
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240 2020-09-03T11:29:56  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #19724: [net] Cleanup connection types- followups  (master...2020-08-conn-refactor-followups) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19724
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243 2020-09-03T11:39:00  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/620ac8c47539...4053de04e239
244 2020-09-03T11:39:01  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 6de9429 nthumann: qa: Changes v0.17.1 to v0.17.2
245 2020-09-03T11:39:01  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 4053de0 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #19859: qa: Fixes failing functional test by changing version
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248 2020-09-03T11:39:20  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #19859: qa: Fixes failing functional test by changing version (master...qa-fix-wrong-version) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19859
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283 2020-09-03T14:29:01  <sdaftuar> gleb: i had that same question myself recently!  i agree with you that it seems unnecessary
284 2020-09-03T14:30:23  <sdaftuar> wumpus: i think #19670 is close to mergable as well?  i'm not sure if anyone else is planning to review, but it has a few ACKs and user reports it fixes a bug
285 2020-09-03T14:30:27  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19670 | Protect localhost and block-relay-only peers from eviction by sdaftuar · Pull Request #19670 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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290 2020-09-03T15:15:46  <jonatack_> I was planning to review 19670 once it has test coverage.
291 2020-09-03T15:16:48  <jonatack_> Or perhaps more data. ATM we only have one user report.
292 2020-09-03T15:17:15  <jonatack_> The concept does make sense and is interesting.
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294 2020-09-03T15:21:24  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/4053de04e239...69a13eb2467a
295 2020-09-03T15:21:24  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 752e6ad Suhas Daftuar: Protect localhost and block-relay-only peers from eviction
296 2020-09-03T15:21:25  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 69a13eb Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #19670: Protect localhost and block-relay-only peers from eviction
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299 2020-09-03T15:21:43  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #19670: Protect localhost and block-relay-only peers from eviction (master...2020-08-improved-eviction) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19670
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304 2020-09-03T15:24:39  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/69a13eb2467a...bd60a9a8edd4
305 2020-09-03T15:24:39  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 407175e Jon Atack: p2p: change CInv::type from int to uint32_t
306 2020-09-03T15:24:40  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 7984c39 Jon Atack: test framework: serialize/deserialize inv type as unsigned int
307 2020-09-03T15:24:41  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master bd60a9a Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #19818: p2p: change `CInv::type` from `int` to `uint32_t`, fix UBSan...
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310 2020-09-03T15:24:58  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #19818: p2p: change `CInv::type` from `int` to `uint32_t`, fix UBSan warning (master...CInv-type-refactoring) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19818
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319 2020-09-03T16:03:20  <achow101> is #19754 RTM?
320 2020-09-03T16:03:22  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19754 | wallet, gui: Reload previously loaded wallets on startup by achow101 · Pull Request #19754 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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322 2020-09-03T16:12:44  <jonasschnelli> looks like
323 2020-09-03T16:13:35  <jonasschnelli> achow101: why is there no functional RPC test?
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325 2020-09-03T16:14:18  <achow101> jonasschnelli: because it's gui?
326 2020-09-03T16:14:32  <achow101> there's already tests for the RPC side of things
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328 2020-09-03T16:14:52  <jonasschnelli> I see! All clear then.
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332 2020-09-03T16:25:22  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jonasschnelli pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/bd60a9a8edd4...a0a422c34cfd
333 2020-09-03T16:25:22  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master f1ee373 Andrew Chow: wallet: Reload previously loaded wallets on GUI startup
334 2020-09-03T16:25:23  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master a0a422c Jonas Schnelli: Merge #19754: wallet, gui: Reload previously loaded wallets on startup
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337 2020-09-03T16:25:41  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jonasschnelli merged pull request #19754: wallet, gui: Reload previously loaded wallets on startup (master...load-on-start-gui) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19754
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344 2020-09-03T16:31:33  <sdaftuar> jonatack_: post-merge review would be welcome as well
345 2020-09-03T16:31:36  <sdaftuar> thanks!
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362 2020-09-03T17:47:11  <moneyball> #proposedmeetingtopic Bitcoin Design Community and efforts around the Bitcoin Core project
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378 2020-09-03T19:00:01  <wumpus> #startmeeting
379 2020-09-03T19:00:01  <lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Sep  3 19:00:01 2020 UTC.  The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
380 2020-09-03T19:00:01  <lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
381 2020-09-03T19:00:12  <achow101> hi
382 2020-09-03T19:00:19  <hebasto> hi
383 2020-09-03T19:00:19  <sipa> hi
384 2020-09-03T19:00:30  <jonasschnelli> hi
385 2020-09-03T19:00:31  <ariard_> hi
386 2020-09-03T19:00:37  <wumpus> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag provoostenator aj Chris_Stewart_5 dongcarl gwillen jamesob ken281221 ryanofsky gleb moneyball kvaciral ariard digi_james
387 2020-09-03T19:00:38  <wumpus> amiti fjahr jeremyrubin lightlike emilengler jonatack hebasto jb55 elichai2
388 2020-09-03T19:00:45  <gleb> hi
389 2020-09-03T19:01:17  <wumpus> two proposed topics for this week: conducting a large scale usage survey (achow101), Bitcoin Design Community and efforts around the Bitcoin Core project (moneyball)
390 2020-09-03T19:01:21  <amiti> hi
391 2020-09-03T19:01:27  <wumpus> any last minute things anyone wants to discuss?
392 2020-09-03T19:01:42  <aj> hi
393 2020-09-03T19:01:43  <jonatack> hi
394 2020-09-03T19:01:55  <moneyball> hi
395 2020-09-03T19:02:11  <jeremyrubin> hi
396 2020-09-03T19:02:14  <jb55> hi
397 2020-09-03T19:02:28  <lightlike> hi
398 2020-09-03T19:02:50  <ajonas> hi
399 2020-09-03T19:03:15  <wumpus> #topic High priority for review
400 2020-09-03T19:03:25  <wumpus> let's start with the usual then
401 2020-09-03T19:03:38  <wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8 10 blockers open, 1 bugfix, 2 chasing concept ACK
402 2020-09-03T19:04:02  <hebasto> could I nominate #18710 for high-prio
403 2020-09-03T19:04:05  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/18710 | Add local thread pool to CCheckQueue by hebasto · Pull Request #18710 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
404 2020-09-03T19:04:14  <wumpus> #19476 seems to be getting close to mergable
405 2020-09-03T19:04:16  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19476 | rpc: Add mempoolchanges by promag · Pull Request #19476 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
406 2020-09-03T19:04:33  <wumpus> sorry #19478
407 2020-09-03T19:04:36  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19478 | Remove CTxMempool::mapLinks data structure member by JeremyRubin · Pull Request #19478 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
408 2020-09-03T19:04:59  <jeremyrubin> I pushed the fixes required :)
409 2020-09-03T19:05:01  <sipsorcery> hi
410 2020-09-03T19:05:13  <gleb> Can we add #19697 for now? It not that difficult, but already has 2 acks. Hopefully it enters & leaves high prio quickly :)
411 2020-09-03T19:05:15  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19697 | Improvements on ADDR caching by naumenkogs · Pull Request #19697 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
412 2020-09-03T19:05:56  <wumpus> hebasto: added
413 2020-09-03T19:06:02  <hebasto> thanks
414 2020-09-03T19:06:25  <meshcollider> hi
415 2020-09-03T19:07:07  <wumpus> gleb: added
416 2020-09-03T19:07:13  <gleb> thank you!
417 2020-09-03T19:08:19  <wumpus> #19606 also seems close to be able to be merged, but as it is a pretty big backport it would be nice to get a third ack
418 2020-09-03T19:08:22  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19606 | Backport wtxid relay to v0.20 by jnewbery · Pull Request #19606 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
419 2020-09-03T19:08:41  <luke-jr> I didn't review the code, but it is in Knots v0.20.1
420 2020-09-03T19:08:58  <wumpus> good, at least it already gets some testing then
421 2020-09-03T19:09:06  <ajonas> is #14895 actually chasing concept ACK?
422 2020-09-03T19:09:08  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/14895 | Package relay design questions · Issue #14895 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
423 2020-09-03T19:09:14  <luke-jr> (well, obviously I did *look at* the code, but not enough to ACK it)
424 2020-09-03T19:09:27  <ajonas> I'm unclear what that means in this case
425 2020-09-03T19:09:44  <luke-jr> maybe close enough I should just finish the review tho
426 2020-09-03T19:11:03  <wumpus> ajonas: I think it's in there mostly to give the discussion there visibility (which is what that colum is for, even if it's not strictly about a concept ACK)
427 2020-09-03T19:11:16  <ariard_> ajonas: actually we could swap it by #19820 first, as any package relay discussions should fall under this one first IMO
428 2020-09-03T19:11:17  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19820 | Transactions propagation design goals · Issue #19820 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
429 2020-09-03T19:11:49  <aj> wumpus: it's been there a long time now, and don't think there's current progress on it (and maybe better served by the p2p meetings for now anyway?)
430 2020-09-03T19:12:34  <wumpus> I don't mind swapping it with #19820
431 2020-09-03T19:12:35  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19820 | Transactions propagation design goals · Issue #19820 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
432 2020-09-03T19:12:50  <wumpus> if people agree on that
433 2020-09-03T19:13:12  <aj> sgtm
434 2020-09-03T19:13:50  <wumpus> ok
435 2020-09-03T19:14:11  <wumpus> I think we can go on to the other topics
436 2020-09-03T19:14:35  <wumpus> #topic conducting a large scale usage survey (achow101)
437 2020-09-03T19:14:59  <achow101> I wanted to get some opinions on the feasibility and usefulness of conducting a usage survey
438 2020-09-03T19:15:29  <jonasschnelli> smells after a drama maker. :)
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440 2020-09-03T19:15:29  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] ariard closed pull request #19147: Document discouragement logic with regards to malicious exploitation (master...2020-06-doc-banman-infra) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19147
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442 2020-09-03T19:15:32  <achow101> the idea for the survey is to get data on how people use Core. particularly, for the wallet, we want to know things like if anyone uses things like zapwallettxes
443 2020-09-03T19:15:40  <jeremyrubin> I think it's a great idea!
444 2020-09-03T19:15:48  <jeremyrubin> I've appreciated your twitter questions
445 2020-09-03T19:16:07  <jeremyrubin> and I've done some similarly; would be cool for it to be a bit more buttoned up with ability to follow up with users
446 2020-09-03T19:16:15  <moneyball> Square Crypto just announced a user research grant to Jamaal who is an experienced research from OMI and IDEO, to exclusively focus on Bitcoin Core, so it seems like that would be a great person to engage on this
447 2020-09-03T19:16:18  <jonasschnelli> I think it's a great idea. Unsure how to execute practically
448 2020-09-03T19:16:25  <wumpus> I was okay with remiving zapwallettxes but I dislike how it seems we're removing all recorvery functionality
449 2020-09-03T19:16:31  <moneyball> His proposal can be found here https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d8QND6mGHayOAynt1ywZ1mgca1Ghlt1Rkn7l02Jj2IA/edit
450 2020-09-03T19:16:45  <moneyball> but he is eager to work with Core developers on improving it and making it as impactful as possible
451 2020-09-03T19:16:48  <wumpus> it's clear such things are useful sometimes even if people don't use them a lot day to day
452 2020-09-03T19:16:52  <sipa> moneyball: please wait for topic?
453 2020-09-03T19:17:15  <moneyball> sipa: I am responding to achow's call for a usage survey
454 2020-09-03T19:17:17  <luke-jr> sipa: this is the topic
455 2020-09-03T19:17:29  <sipa> oh, oops!
456 2020-09-03T19:17:31  <moneyball> We now literally have an expert at this :)
457 2020-09-03T19:17:38  <achow101> wumpus: i'm not necessarily trying to remove recovery functionality
458 2020-09-03T19:17:54  <ariard_> moneyball: you should ping folks from blockchain commons, IIRC they have thoughts on how to improve core wallet
459 2020-09-03T19:17:58  <wumpus> in any case, more generally, I don't think doing a survey can hurt
460 2020-09-03T19:18:23  <achow101> but also I think a survey could also get us some useful data for other things
461 2020-09-03T19:18:50  <jeremyrubin> I'm not positive that lack of expertise is the issue. E.g., I'm a published HCI author and I know other people have similar expertise. I think the broader issue is coming up with agreement that the results of such a survey would be actionable.
462 2020-09-03T19:19:28  <nehan> DCI has also been talking to a user research team. I think it can be tricky to design these surveys well, for example so you don't just hear what you want to hear
463 2020-09-03T19:19:34  <moneyball> Ok let me re-state: we have someone who will be dedicated full-time to this for 6 months, so I encourage anyone interested in shaping and influencing his research to connect with him
464 2020-09-03T19:20:00  <moneyball> His email is jamaalmonty [at] gmail.com
465 2020-09-03T19:20:16  <luke-jr> sounds like lots of different people trying to do a survey
466 2020-09-03T19:20:22  <luke-jr> I suggest they all work together :p
467 2020-09-03T19:20:38  <jonasschnelli> Just a little warning: some users don't know what they want (especially when it hits the privacy layer).
468 2020-09-03T19:20:46  <nehan> we have not started anything yet, just offering up information. will ask them to reach out to jamaal!
469 2020-09-03T19:21:03  <jeremyrubin> achow101: I think maybe what might make sense is to come up with some key issues we want to fix but don't know how to fix.
470 2020-09-03T19:21:08  <moneyball> nehan: great!!
471 2020-09-03T19:21:11  <jonasschnelli> Probably also hard to find samples that are representative for "the usergroupe" of Bitcoin Core
472 2020-09-03T19:21:14  <jeremyrubin> it sounds like wallet recovery is a real issue
473 2020-09-03T19:21:14  <luke-jr> I don't know we have a reliable way to contact all or even a good sample of users
474 2020-09-03T19:21:20  <achow101> jeremyrubin: right
475 2020-09-03T19:21:36  <achow101> the kind of data I'm looking for is more of what things are being used
476 2020-09-03T19:21:36  <luke-jr> I expect people who read bitcoincore.org, or the announcements list, etc are the same niches
477 2020-09-03T19:22:03  <achow101> I spoke with Jamaal and he's doing more on user experience stuff which is more subjective
478 2020-09-03T19:22:11  <jeremyrubin> achow101: you know the whole bullet holes on plane wing issue right?
479 2020-09-03T19:22:21  <achow101> jeremyrubin: yes
480 2020-09-03T19:22:24  <jeremyrubin> :)
481 2020-09-03T19:22:29  <jonasschnelli> Yes. UX and feature uses are two different things
482 2020-09-03T19:22:46  <luke-jr> a lot of users haven't upgraded since <0.18 still
483 2020-09-03T19:22:55  <jeremyrubin> I think what might be nice would be to start with a project-wise survey
484 2020-09-03T19:22:56  <luke-jr> (40%)
485 2020-09-03T19:22:59  <achow101> But if we're debating whether to remove e.g. zapwallettxes, it would be nice to know whether people use this
486 2020-09-03T19:23:11  <jeremyrubin> Rather than talking to end-users, start by talking to mid?-users
487 2020-09-03T19:23:20  <jeremyrubin> e.g., LND, BTCPayServer, Coinbase, etc
488 2020-09-03T19:23:32  <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: very different kind of users
489 2020-09-03T19:23:35  <jonasschnelli> achow101: how would you get representative samples to acctually use this as a decision base (to remove zap)?
490 2020-09-03T19:23:36  <achow101> other data I'm looking for though is number of UTXOs (within orders of magnitudes, not actual numbers), and wallet versions
491 2020-09-03T19:24:13  <nehan> achow101: is there a list i could share of your questions and thoughts?
492 2020-09-03T19:24:17  <achow101> jonasschnelli: I think the best we would be able to do is to promote the survey in as many places as possible. like put it on reddit, bitcointalk, twitter, etc.
493 2020-09-03T19:24:28  <jeremyrubin> luke-jr: that cluster of users is probably just more useful in early on work at having users who can clearly express what they want v.s. end users where the question becomes more of a UX endeavor IMO
494 2020-09-03T19:24:34  <achow101> nehan: not yet
495 2020-09-03T19:24:39  <jonasschnelli> The survey will probably be anonymous. So its super hard to tell wether one person did fill up 10k forms or 10k users filled out one form.
496 2020-09-03T19:24:44  <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: but they'd also already be opening PRs for what they want
497 2020-09-03T19:24:50  <jeremyrubin> That's not true
498 2020-09-03T19:24:53  <sipa> achow101: one issue especially with recovery options is that they're extremely rarely used features to begin with
499 2020-09-03T19:25:08  <sipa> achow101: and even if 99.99% of users never touch them, they are worthwhile
500 2020-09-03T19:25:10  <jonasschnelli> There will always be large questionmarks wether the gathered data is useful due to the nature that we don't do CRM
501 2020-09-03T19:25:11  <achow101> jonasschnelli: yes, that's certainly a problem. I think the best we could do there is to put a captcha and ask people not to be assholes
502 2020-09-03T19:25:23  <sipa> which means you need an extremely large and representative sample
503 2020-09-03T19:25:40  <luke-jr> back when I did the KYC poll thing, it matched Twitter polls pretty closely
504 2020-09-03T19:25:43  <wumpus> sipa: that was also my point, i think a survey is good for some things, but probably not for recovery options
505 2020-09-03T19:25:50  <luke-jr> so I don't think there's a whole lot of effort into skewing polls
506 2020-09-03T19:26:28  <sipa> wumpus: agree
507 2020-09-03T19:26:47  <achow101> wumpus, sipa: I agree that for recovery options, it's not as useful. But asking whether people have heard of the option might be.
508 2020-09-03T19:27:11  <sipa> achow101: agree
509 2020-09-03T19:27:15  <jeremyrubin> You can also make a survey only show a follow up if they check a box that they used  it or lost a wallet
510 2020-09-03T19:27:30  <jeremyrubin> which if you just don't collect enough data on, you ignore it
511 2020-09-03T19:27:39  <wumpus> if it is about a single option, it's likely better to ask it separately on twitter than do a survey, will reach more people
512 2020-09-03T19:27:43  <sipa> "How many BTC have you lost due to unrecoverable wallet.dat files?"
513 2020-09-03T19:27:50  <jeremyrubin> heh
514 2020-09-03T19:28:01  <achow101> I think there would end up being a lot of questions like "have you heard of X?" followed by "If yes, have you ever used X?"
515 2020-09-03T19:28:20  <jeremyrubin> achow101: I think we can probably between some set of people also pay to promote the tweet?
516 2020-09-03T19:28:26  <jeremyrubin> if you want more respondents
517 2020-09-03T19:28:26  <luke-jr> inb4 a bunch of lost bitcoins get recovered as a result of said survey
518 2020-09-03T19:28:28  <nehan> there is also depth vs. breadth: it might be useful to interview 2-3 people who have lost btc to find out what went wrong
519 2020-09-03T19:28:39  <jeremyrubin> but in my experience polls get very high engagement
520 2020-09-03T19:28:44  <jeremyrubin> like usually at least 200 ppl
521 2020-09-03T19:29:09  <jeremyrubin> hey!
522 2020-09-03T19:29:18  <jonasschnelli> If a survey happens,.. i think the form how it's done (google forms, etc.) and what branding, originator/sender is used, privacy in general, etc. is used if very important to prevent people freaking out
523 2020-09-03T19:29:19  <jeremyrubin> Lots of people from the MIT Bitcoin Project lost their wallet.dats
524 2020-09-03T19:29:30  <jeremyrubin> can shoot the participants an email nehan
525 2020-09-03T19:30:07  <achow101> jonasschnelli: that's definitely a concern. I don't think any existing survey sites don't have tracking
526 2020-09-03T19:30:17  <achow101> we'd likely have to run something ourselves
527 2020-09-03T19:30:35  <jonasschnelli> Those details are the reason why I said at the beginning it is probably a "drama maker"
528 2020-09-03T19:30:56  <jeremyrubin> the issue is that then you bias onto people who will visit mysketchypoll.info vs. google forms :)
529 2020-09-03T19:31:07  *** AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
530 2020-09-03T19:31:09  <achow101> put it on bitcoincore.org
531 2020-09-03T19:31:11  <jonasschnelli> And I bet some BCH morons will script 10k survey submissions just to show off
532 2020-09-03T19:31:16  <gwillen> achow101: it's hard to guarantee anything doesn't have tracking, I have suggested to people that they just fill out google forms over Tor if they care a lot
533 2020-09-03T19:31:18  <achow101> mysketchpoll.bitcoincore.org :)
534 2020-09-03T19:31:22  <sipa> jeremyrubin: lol, i could have predicted that :)
535 2020-09-03T19:31:43  <gleb> blinded proof of ownership to participate? :)
536 2020-09-03T19:31:45  <gwillen> (I guess perhaps some non-google provider might be less likely to give Tor users lots of annoying captchas)
537 2020-09-03T19:32:05  <wumpus> agree w/ regard to drama maker, especially if you ask about people losing money you have to do with some care
538 2020-09-03T19:32:27  <gleb> poodle-style construction may help?  not sure, should re-read it
539 2020-09-03T19:32:35  <jonasschnelli> And maybe you can argue that the most Core powerusers (which we actually want to sample) are generally not filling out surveys.
540 2020-09-03T19:32:36  <jeremyrubin> I think I'll re-make my suggestion that rather than doing an initial broad scope survey, we should build some experience on a couple smaller scale ones
541 2020-09-03T19:32:38  <ariard_> gleb: it's 2020, just ask them to pay a LN invoice :p
542 2020-09-03T19:32:41  <wumpus> at least for a public survery, if you're just going to interview a few people it's less of an issue
543 2020-09-03T19:32:48  <jeremyrubin> And then leverage that learning for future work
544 2020-09-03T19:32:55  <achow101> gleb: that would severely bias our sample to people willing to jump through the hoops
545 2020-09-03T19:33:16  <wumpus> heh, getting reliable statistics in 2020
546 2020-09-03T19:33:18  <instagibbs> what's the budget for this? :)
547 2020-09-03T19:33:21  <jonasschnelli> maybe it's best done outside of the core "official" channels (bitcoincore.org) and best put under your own umbrella (achow, twitter, your website)?
548 2020-09-03T19:33:31  <sipa> put it on the blockchain
549 2020-09-03T19:33:33  <jonasschnelli> instagibbs: budget is always 0
550 2020-09-03T19:33:43  * jeremyrubin I lost my wallet.dat because the blocks were too small to upload it.
551 2020-09-03T19:33:47  <achow101> I could setup a google doc where we discuss what and how to ask questions.
552 2020-09-03T19:33:51  <instagibbs> jonasschnelli, I am personal friends with survey researchers/professionals :P
553 2020-09-03T19:34:02  <nehan> achow101: +1
554 2020-09-03T19:34:35  <achow101> instagibbs: My budget is like $20
555 2020-09-03T19:34:48  <jonasschnelli> should be enough for 1m of a VM
556 2020-09-03T19:34:49  <instagibbs> s/friends/wife/
557 2020-09-03T19:34:53  <instagibbs> I'll sak her
558 2020-09-03T19:34:54  <instagibbs> ask
559 2020-09-03T19:35:11  <jonasschnelli> don't sak her!
560 2020-09-03T19:35:11  <luke-jr> …
561 2020-09-03T19:35:22  <luke-jr> instagibbs: you are a survey researcher's wife?
562 2020-09-03T19:35:22  <jeremyrubin> Those responsible for the survey have been sacked.
563 2020-09-03T19:35:31  <instagibbs> luke-jr, i no english sorry
564 2020-09-03T19:35:38  <luke-jr> XD
565 2020-09-03T19:35:53  <jeremyrubin> Anyways -- I think there's broad conceptually agreement on a survey achow101?
566 2020-09-03T19:35:56  <achow101> jeremyrubin: welp
567 2020-09-03T19:36:10  <achow101> yeah, i'll come up with a slightly more concerte proposal
568 2020-09-03T19:36:18  <jonatack> data point of one: i don't fill out surveys ever
569 2020-09-03T19:36:29  <jonasschnelli> achow101: thanks!
570 2020-09-03T19:36:30  <sdaftuar> by induction...
571 2020-09-03T19:36:33  <jonatack> due to google forms, tracking, etc.
572 2020-09-03T19:36:46  <jeremyrubin> jonatack: you just answered a survey on taking surveys
573 2020-09-03T19:36:51  <luke-jr> Sometimes I do if they're quick
574 2020-09-03T19:36:51  *** kristapsk has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
575 2020-09-03T19:36:56  <jeremyrubin> So I think maybe a good next step would be to make a google doc and just let people add questions they want asked?
576 2020-09-03T19:36:56  <luke-jr> if they say 15 minutes, I just close it
577 2020-09-03T19:37:04  <jeremyrubin> Then trim it down into something more concrete
578 2020-09-03T19:37:14  <achow101> yeah
579 2020-09-03T19:37:37  <jeremyrubin> if it helps: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gGP9CmOiM80JmNPiDrTL6dgP6fVVusDuEqYQ9cBJz5E/edit
580 2020-09-03T19:37:42  <sipa> "This survey will end when block $(($HEIGHT+1)) is found. Good luck!"
581 2020-09-03T19:37:44  <jeremyrubin> anyone can suggest edit dump questions here
582 2020-09-03T19:37:48  <instagibbs> luke-jr, 15 minutes is a prety long survey
583 2020-09-03T19:37:52  <luke-jr> sipa: lol
584 2020-09-03T19:38:01  <instagibbs> in paper terms, roughly 15 pages of checkboxes and stuff
585 2020-09-03T19:38:16  <luke-jr> instagibbs: I wouldn't know, since I don't go through them :P
586 2020-09-03T19:39:50  <achow101> end of topic I guess
587 2020-09-03T19:40:03  <wumpus> #topic Bitcoin Design Community and efforts around the Bitcoin Core project (moneyball)
588 2020-09-03T19:40:13  <moneyball> For context, back in June Square Crypto announced the formation of the Bitcoin Design community https://medium.com/@squarecrypto/bringing-together-the-bitcoin-design-community-b89e5fbe080f
589 2020-09-03T19:40:21  <moneyball> We had an amazing response with over 500 designers and creatives from around the world joining the community. Some of them have an interest in contributing to the Bitcoin Core project.
590 2020-09-03T19:40:38  <moneyball> I already mentioned Jamaal's project above which is one touchpoint with the Core project.
591 2020-09-03T19:40:54  <moneyball> There is also a group of people interested in helping with the GUI design. They've formed a Slack channel #bitcoin-core-gui in the Design Community Slack (http://www.bitcoindesigners.org/). They're also holding biweekly video calls to discuss issues (eg https://github.com/BitcoinDesign/Meta/issues/13).
592 2020-09-03T19:41:02  <moneyball> An example of improving the GUI is https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gui/issues/81
593 2020-09-03T19:41:14  <moneyball> If interested, feel free to join these and engage. Note that there is not an expectation Core contributors must join these discussions, and as I state here (https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gui/pull/79#issuecomment-686613427), any formal proposed changes and discussion should occur on GitHub per the existing process.
594 2020-09-03T19:41:33  *** davterra has quit IRC
595 2020-09-03T19:41:35  <moneyball> I think this is great news to have designers and researchers interested in helping the Core project! I am sure there will be a few areas to improve as we add new types of contributors, so don't be afraid to provide feedback or offer suggestions.
596 2020-09-03T19:41:39  <moneyball> Comments?
597 2020-09-03T19:41:52  *** belcher_ has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
598 2020-09-03T19:41:54  *** davterra has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
599 2020-09-03T19:42:14  <luke-jr> moneyball: why can't they use IRC, or at least the existing Core slack?
600 2020-09-03T19:43:39  <wumpus> moneyball: great to hear
601 2020-09-03T19:43:46  <jonasschnelli> Yes. Great to hear.
602 2020-09-03T19:43:51  <moneyball> They could, but most designers are not on IRC, but we are working to get them more comfortable with GitHub, which I think is going well.
603 2020-09-03T19:44:06  <wumpus> getting people to use IRC is kind of out of scope I think
604 2020-09-03T19:44:39  <sdaftuar> personally i'm glad we're getting thoughtful newcomers to contribute, sounds great!
605 2020-09-03T19:44:46  <wumpus> it's got to be more about what is being discussed than where, anyway
606 2020-09-03T19:44:55  *** belcher has quit IRC
607 2020-09-03T19:45:06  <jeremyrubin> I think one question I have is the extent to which it makes sense to, assuming we have this massive influx of design talent, to work on the existing GUI or to gut-rennovate it. Not sure what's in scope
608 2020-09-03T19:45:09  <instagibbs> provided larger scale coordination is done at github level I don't think it should cause many issues
609 2020-09-03T19:45:10  <jonasschnelli> One first think that pops into my head when I hear designers working on Core: how hard will it be to adapt a flexible design with our native platform Qt approach
610 2020-09-03T19:45:11  <luke-jr> moneyball: they can join IRC just as easily as joining some new Slack
611 2020-09-03T19:45:22  <jeremyrubin> jonasschnelli: +1 similar q
612 2020-09-03T19:45:51  <wumpus> that's why QML was brought up, it's much more flexible in that regard
613 2020-09-03T19:45:54  <hebasto> jonasschnelli: by moving to QML?
614 2020-09-03T19:46:01  <jonasschnelli> So whatever comes out of the design process,... implementing it will be a challenge.
615 2020-09-03T19:46:05  <jonasschnelli> I agree with QML.
616 2020-09-03T19:46:15  <wumpus> there's only so much you can do with widgets
617 2020-09-03T19:46:18  <jonasschnelli> Which _is_ hard to switch towards
618 2020-09-03T19:46:42  <jonasschnelli> Also,... should the GUI still respect color patterns of the OS (dark mode, etc.)?
619 2020-09-03T19:46:50  <wumpus> someone already did some stuff with QML and bitcoin core in a PR for android
620 2020-09-03T19:47:09  <hebasto> is it acceptable to have hybrid (widgets + QML) binaries at somepoint?
621 2020-09-03T19:47:11  <wumpus> #16883
622 2020-09-03T19:47:14  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16883 | WIP: Qt: add QML based mobile GUI by icota · Pull Request #16883 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
623 2020-09-03T19:47:19  <luke-jr> the GUI low-level design (colours, widgets, etc) should be entirely determined by the OS
624 2020-09-03T19:47:20  <jonasschnelli> I think QML could be the right direction. Just,... that not an easy step by step transition probably
625 2020-09-03T19:47:31  <jeremyrubin> How far along is the splitting of wallet process stuff?
626 2020-09-03T19:47:45  <wumpus> I'm not sure they can be combined in one UI (or whether that makes sense)
627 2020-09-03T19:48:04  <jonasschnelli> Maybe the design process leads to a new UI...
628 2020-09-03T19:48:10  <jeremyrubin> Is it feasible that e.g. different GUIs can link to the same intefaces?
629 2020-09-03T19:48:16  <wumpus> in any case we'd need someone that knows how to use QML
630 2020-09-03T19:48:38  <sipa> luke-jr: you must hate websites :)
631 2020-09-03T19:48:58  <wumpus> jonasschnelli: yes, maybe eventually
632 2020-09-03T19:49:04  <luke-jr> sipa: I used Konqueror as long as it was viable ;)
633 2020-09-03T19:49:12  <wumpus> I think starting with a "mobile GUI" for core would be good
634 2020-09-03T19:49:21  <wumpus> just leave the current one for desktop for now
635 2020-09-03T19:49:38  <jonasschnelli> luke-jr: that would be impossible for designers to work with "(colours, widgets, etc) should be entirely determined by the OS".
636 2020-09-03T19:49:42  <jeremyrubin> that makes sense to me too; and is something familiar to designers these days (mobile first!)
637 2020-09-03T19:49:50  <yanmaani> as a user, I really hate QML
638 2020-09-03T19:49:53  <wumpus> which is also the PR I linked
639 2020-09-03T19:49:57  <luke-jr> jonasschnelli: then they're bad designers… :/
640 2020-09-03T19:50:02  <yanmaani> I really like it when it has a native look, like Core or, arguably better, Electrum
641 2020-09-03T19:50:03  <jonasschnelli> yanmaani: on what platform? Desktop?
642 2020-09-03T19:50:10  <wumpus> qt widgets is more or less unusable on mobile platforms so it's the first application anyway
643 2020-09-03T19:50:14  <yanmaani> Monero has a QML gui, and that looks horrible
644 2020-09-03T19:50:21  <yanmaani> jonasschnelli: yeah
645 2020-09-03T19:50:32  <yanmaani> mobile is different, but nobody (I hope) runs a full node on their phone
646 2020-09-03T19:50:35  <luke-jr> yanmaani: does QML mean non-native? :/
647 2020-09-03T19:50:46  <wumpus> people definitely run full nodes on their phones and tablets these days
648 2020-09-03T19:50:46  <jonasschnelli> QML means non native widgets
649 2020-09-03T19:50:48  <yanmaani> luke-jr: Think of QML like knock-off HTML for GUI development
650 2020-09-03T19:50:59  <yanmaani> Try using the Monero GUI, it looks like a website or something
651 2020-09-03T19:51:02  <luke-jr> NACK QML then :<
652 2020-09-03T19:51:17  <wumpus> this is not going to lead anywhere
653 2020-09-03T19:51:19  <jonasschnelli> QT provides some QML basic widgets. But they don't feel like your OSes widgets. Similar to using web-based applications like slack, etc.
654 2020-09-03T19:51:29  <yanmaani> I don't have much clout here but I think you should definitely stay native
655 2020-09-03T19:51:40  <luke-jr> wumpus: if the direction is bad, best to not follow that lead?
656 2020-09-03T19:52:06  <jonasschnelli> I guess there are good and bad native desktop apps as they are good and bad QML desktop apps. It probably depends on how it's made
657 2020-09-03T19:52:30  <luke-jr> jonasschnelli: by definition, if it doesn't use native widgets, it is bad. So if you're saying QML means non-native widgets, they are necessarily all bad?
658 2020-09-03T19:52:36  *** SkuMHB has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
659 2020-09-03T19:52:41  <sipa> luke-jr: that's your opinion....
660 2020-09-03T19:52:42  <wumpus> this is not going to lead anywhere? start with a mobile GUI
661 2020-09-03T19:52:43  <jonasschnelli> luke-jr: that's only your opinion
662 2020-09-03T19:52:50  <jonasschnelli> agree.
663 2020-09-03T19:52:51  <moneyball> these are the types of discussions that i'd love to have designers engage with existing Core contributors. discussion on GitHub is one common ground. if there is interest from Core devs to join the biweekly video calls, already hebasto and a few others do, and you're very welcome to that.
664 2020-09-03T19:52:56  <wumpus> leave the current one for desktop for now
665 2020-09-03T19:53:11  <jonasschnelli> I just repeat my first answer to this topic: [21:46:00]  <jonasschnelli> So whatever comes out of the design process,... implementing it will be a challenge.
666 2020-09-03T19:53:16  <sipa> luke-jr: i'd say leave the UI decisions up to those working on it
667 2020-09-03T19:53:18  <yanmaani> well it is a bit rude to have the designers have their meetings in Slack and Zoom and whatnot
668 2020-09-03T19:53:19  <wumpus> when it has existed for a while we can at some point maybe look at QML for desktop, but I don't want to make that decision now, at all
669 2020-09-03T19:53:32  <yanmaani> and then present it, take it or leave it, with some amount of pressure, to the devs
670 2020-09-03T19:53:37  *** gribble has quit IRC
671 2020-09-03T19:53:37  <wumpus> also, just build whatever you want to build and think is useful, I'm kind of tired of this discussion
672 2020-09-03T19:53:38  <jeremyrubin> When someone is doing work you aren't paying for you really can't demand it be on your terms
673 2020-09-03T19:53:43  <instagibbs> yanmaani, I didn't get this at all from the comments
674 2020-09-03T19:53:48  <yanmaani> it seems like it would make an atmosphere with a bit of bad communication
675 2020-09-03T19:53:52  <luke-jr> sipa: I work on UI
676 2020-09-03T19:53:58  <yanmaani> it seems like it would be better if everyone used the same platform
677 2020-09-03T19:53:59  <luke-jr> sipa: I also use UI
678 2020-09-03T19:54:02  <jonasschnelli> we don't have the data points for a decition. Someone need to come up with a live running example
679 2020-09-03T19:54:15  <sipa> luke-jr: yes, i don't mean to say that excludes you!
680 2020-09-03T19:54:24  <luke-jr> i c
681 2020-09-03T19:54:25  <achow101> https://doc.qt.io/qt-5/topics-ui.html#comparison seems to indicate that QML can do the native styling
682 2020-09-03T19:54:29  <sipa> luke-jr: but i don't think it's something to work out here
683 2020-09-03T19:54:42  <moneyball> yanmaani: I think you misinterpret. I explicitly said above and in my GitHub comment that I agree with luke-jr, we shouldn't require Core developers to go elsewhere for formal discussion.
684 2020-09-03T19:54:43  <wumpus> native styling means nothing on mobile platforms anywy, it's fine to start without that
685 2020-09-03T19:55:09  <yanmaani> native styling, maybe. It's still notorious for being very sluggish, but that might just be a stereotype
686 2020-09-03T19:55:15  <luke-jr> wumpus: Android doesn't have native widgets? Pretty sure it does
687 2020-09-03T19:55:18  <jonasschnelli> as for moneyball: I think it is important to tell the designers that the _implementation_ of it will raise tons of questions. Just that they are aware that this project is different to the corporate world.
688 2020-09-03T19:55:20  <yanmaani> wumpus: Do app GUIs have much in common with desktop GUIs?
689 2020-09-03T19:55:23  <moneyball> However, there is nothing preventing people from using other mediums to communicate with each other. We shouldn't prevent designers from using, say Figma.
690 2020-09-03T19:55:24  <wumpus> luke-jr: yes but no one uses them
691 2020-09-03T19:55:25  <yanmaani> They're all profoundly different platforms
692 2020-09-03T19:55:38  <luke-jr> wumpus: most apps do in my experience
693 2020-09-03T19:55:40  *** SkuMHB has quit IRC
694 2020-09-03T19:55:42  <yanmaani> moneyball: Right, but then the designers will be discussing without talking to the core devs
695 2020-09-03T19:55:49  <luke-jr> wumpus: I think the only exception I know of is Pokemon GO
696 2020-09-03T19:55:51  <wumpus> in any case, qt widgets doesn't really work on android ...
697 2020-09-03T19:56:00  <luke-jr> ⁇
698 2020-09-03T19:56:09  <wumpus> qml does
699 2020-09-03T19:56:21  <yanmaani> I mean, my worry is that you might end up with a website that looks "designed by designers" (see: angular/react monstrosities) but is horribly slow
700 2020-09-03T19:56:28  <yanmaani> rather than a nice HTML site with a small amount of CSS
701 2020-09-03T19:56:37  <jonasschnelli> yanmaani: we all share that worry
702 2020-09-03T19:56:41  <moneyball> yanmaani: There has been effort put forth to have Core devs and designers talking to each other. It is already happening. That said, I'm sure we can improve even more so.
703 2020-09-03T19:56:43  <yanmaani> uh I mean app
704 2020-09-03T19:56:46  <yanmaani> not website
705 2020-09-03T19:56:53  <yanmaani> uh I mean program, not app
706 2020-09-03T19:57:00  <luke-jr> maybe designers should make image files and coders do the implementation?
707 2020-09-03T19:57:06  <wumpus> QML is definitely not 'horribly slow'
708 2020-09-03T19:57:18  <jonasschnelli> the opposite
709 2020-09-03T19:57:25  <wumpus> it's very well optimized for animations and such
710 2020-09-03T19:57:31  <luke-jr> The following list summarizes what you can do with Qt for Android:
711 2020-09-03T19:57:31  <instagibbs> It's a lost cause to get everyone on IRC, ship sailed a long time ago. Provided typical Github workflow is followed, there's no issue
712 2020-09-03T19:57:32  <luke-jr> Run Widget-based and QML applications on a device or an emulator.
713 2020-09-03T19:57:34  <luke-jr> wumpus: ^
714 2020-09-03T19:57:35  <yanmaani> That seems like a reasonable idea. It would probably make more sense for designers to try and do higher-level stuff
715 2020-09-03T19:57:46  <yanmaani> things like "is this workflow broken", "does it make sense to order the tabs in this way"
716 2020-09-03T19:57:51  <wumpus> it's mainly used in kiosks and inflight entertainment and industrial devices etc
717 2020-09-03T19:58:00  <wumpus> usually some ARM core
718 2020-09-03T19:58:02  <yanmaani> wumpus: Yeah but compare Monero's GUI to Electrum or whatever
719 2020-09-03T19:58:03  <hebasto> QML supports hardware acceleration
720 2020-09-03T19:58:07  * luke-jr would like to see what Bitcoin Core looks like on Android today
721 2020-09-03T19:58:09  <luke-jr> GUI*
722 2020-09-03T19:58:10  <yanmaani> It's still extremely big and bloated
723 2020-09-03T19:58:11  <jeremyrubin> if you get the designers on IRC, they will leave core, and then work on a more pretty IRC client
724 2020-09-03T19:58:19  <sipa> jeremyrubin: hahaha
725 2020-09-03T19:58:23  <wumpus> native UI is also 'big and bloated'
726 2020-09-03T19:58:24  <luke-jr> hebasto: so does widgets…
727 2020-09-03T19:58:24  <jeremyrubin> so let's keep them focused on the task at hand
728 2020-09-03T19:58:27  <instagibbs> wait... that sounds great jeremyrubin
729 2020-09-03T19:58:31  <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: lol
730 2020-09-03T19:58:46  <wumpus> did you look at windowing toolkits recently
731 2020-09-03T19:58:52  <sipa> irc is supposed to be ugly! *plays with beard*
732 2020-09-03T19:58:55  <instagibbs> everyone should tmux into their IRC machine or log off
733 2020-09-03T19:59:17  <sipa> instagibbs: screen, ffs
734 2020-09-03T19:59:27  <hebasto> luke-jr: sure?
735 2020-09-03T19:59:35  <sdaftuar> instagibbs: i think we call it slack?
736 2020-09-03T19:59:56  <moneyball> yanmaani: it is unrealistic to have everyone use the same platform. designers use tools like figma. can you imagine if designers demanded developers to use figma instead of git and whatever your favorite editor is?
737 2020-09-03T20:00:06  <luke-jr> hebasto: yes, it's annoying tbh
738 2020-09-03T20:00:07  <wumpus> in any case, if the designers don't come up with something better then we can always say no, but I think rejecting any kind of improvement in advance is bad
739 2020-09-03T20:00:15  <sipa> wumpus: +1
740 2020-09-03T20:00:19  <jeremyrubin> moneyball: designers should use DCC whiteboard only
741 2020-09-03T20:00:21  <moneyball> at minimum GitHub will be the common communication platform
742 2020-09-03T20:00:22  <luke-jr> hebasto: simple GUIs shouldn't need hw acceleration
743 2020-09-03T20:00:32  <jonasschnelli> wumpus: +1
744 2020-09-03T20:00:34  <wumpus> this is how you get stuck
745 2020-09-03T20:00:36  <yanmaani> moneyball: Sure, but then you end up in a situation where there's almost no communication
746 2020-09-03T20:00:39  <sdaftuar> it seems presumptuous to tell other volunteers on this project how to work and collaborate with others
747 2020-09-03T20:00:43  <hebasto> luke-jr: agree
748 2020-09-03T20:00:45  <jeremyrubin> sdaftuar: +1
749 2020-09-03T20:00:46  <yanmaani> they just lock themselves in a room and present a design
750 2020-09-03T20:00:57  <yanmaani> Compare bitcoin.org anno 2011 and today
751 2020-09-03T20:01:04  <wumpus> yanmaani: please...
752 2020-09-03T20:01:16  <luke-jr> hebasto: by default, Qt Widgets uses OpenGL
753 2020-09-03T20:01:18  <moneyball> yanmaani: this is not the intention. i am genuinely reaching out here to find ways to avoid your concern
754 2020-09-03T20:01:20  <wumpus> meeting time is over
755 2020-09-03T20:01:24  <jeremyrubin> (btw for anyone connecting over Tor, please do not accept DCC chats -- easy way to dox yourself)
756 2020-09-03T20:01:28  <sdaftuar> moneyball: thanks for sharing this!
757 2020-09-03T20:01:37  <wumpus> moneyball: yes, thanks for working on this
758 2020-09-03T20:01:46  <jonatack> +1
759 2020-09-03T20:01:49  <jonasschnelli> moneyball: thanks!
760 2020-09-03T20:01:52  <yanmaani> moneyball: Well, you would want some sort of neutral ground. Like a phpBB forum, or maybe github is good enough.
761 2020-09-03T20:01:54  <jeremyrubin> excited to see what comes out!
762 2020-09-03T20:02:00  <yanmaani> And slack or keybase or whatever bridged to IRC
763 2020-09-03T20:02:07  <instagibbs> achow101, sorry, wife's company only does contracts north of $20k. Can you 1000x your offer?
764 2020-09-03T20:02:09  <sipa> yanmaani: "neutral ground"? is this a war?
765 2020-09-03T20:02:28  <sipa> yes, IRC bridging may be useful
766 2020-09-03T20:02:41  <wumpus> #endmeeting
767 2020-09-03T20:02:41  <lightningbot> Meeting ended Thu Sep  3 20:02:41 2020 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
768 2020-09-03T20:02:41  <lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-09-03-19.00.html
769 2020-09-03T20:02:41  <lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-09-03-19.00.txt
770 2020-09-03T20:02:41  <lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2020/bitcoin-core-dev.2020-09-03-19.00.log.html
771 2020-09-03T20:02:54  <jeremyrubin> \o/
772 2020-09-03T20:04:31  *** pinheadmz has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
773 2020-09-03T20:04:33  <jonasschnelli> |0/
774 2020-09-03T20:05:04  <instagibbs> yanmaani, as I noted, I think the usual github review flows should be followed. There are a number of IRC channels now for various sub-topics(build systems f.e.) but that doesn't allow sidestep of PR lifecycle
775 2020-09-03T20:05:22  <instagibbs> so where someone congregates to brainstorm, iterate isn't quite as important
776 2020-09-03T20:05:27  *** gribble has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
777 2020-09-03T20:05:47  <yanmaani> I think it's basically a matter of how 'young' the ideas are before being brought up publically to discussion.
778 2020-09-03T20:06:07  <yanmaani> Too young and you'll be laughed at because it was just idle suggestions. Too old and they'll be solidified and hard to nudge right.
779 2020-09-03T20:06:38  <instagibbs> that's up to the subgroups to navigate imo
780 2020-09-03T20:07:16  <sipa> yanmaani: yep
781 2020-09-03T20:08:38  <achow101> I setup ##bitcoin-core-survey for us to argue about how to do this survey
782 2020-09-03T20:08:40  *** AaronvanW has quit IRC
783 2020-09-03T20:09:32  <jeremyrubin> To be fair, this conversation would be *VERY* different if we had a world-class GUI. I think the reality is that while we're good in terms of stability (I think core gui doesn't crash often?) core gui isn't fantastic. Some people are graciously offering to help, and we should encourage them to experiment rather than shackling them to "change it but make it identical to what it is now".
784 2020-09-03T20:10:28  <jeremyrubin> (I accept some people might feel differently about GUI quality)
785 2020-09-03T20:11:08  <yanmaani> I think that there's non-contentious stuff that could be done
786 2020-09-03T20:11:20  <yanmaani> things like "does the big log thing to the right on the main screen really need to be there"
787 2020-09-03T20:11:30  <jeremyrubin> non-contentious == incremental
788 2020-09-03T20:11:31  <yanmaani> where a qualified expert designer can offer lots of insightful advice and is sorely needed
789 2020-09-03T20:11:41  <yanmaani> and contentious stuff, like "let's switch to QML"
790 2020-09-03T20:12:02  <yanmaani> No, you can have complete overhauls where you completely change the tab structure
791 2020-09-03T20:12:04  <instagibbs> I'd be surprised if it ended up wholly replacing the GUI any time soon
792 2020-09-03T20:12:09  <instagibbs> whatever it was
793 2020-09-03T20:12:11  <yanmaani> Like imagine if they just straight up copied Electrum's layout
794 2020-09-03T20:12:18  <yanmaani> but kept the Qt, implementation, etc
795 2020-09-03T20:12:40  <yanmaani> I think it would be more productive to ask questions like "what is the best layout" than "what is the best GUI framework"
796 2020-09-03T20:12:50  <hebasto> luke-jr: https://forum.qt.io/topic/87509/using-hardware-acceleration-gpu-for-qwidget-paintevent "QWidget doesn't use hardware acceleration"
797 2020-09-03T20:13:13  <jonatack> Getting designers to use github/gitlab/etc is already asking them to use tools they don't normally use from what I saw on teams at corporates and startups. IRC, fuggetaboutit. Will check out the design channel to meet them halfway.
798 2020-09-03T20:13:20  <jeremyrubin> yanmaani: I think it's ignorant of existing developers struggling with aspects of qt widgets
799 2020-09-03T20:13:36  <jeremyrubin> so it's not a problem that's made up just to make new designers happy to use trendy new framework
800 2020-09-03T20:13:36  <jonatack> *design slack channel
801 2020-09-03T20:13:49  <wumpus> QML is not a 'trendy new framework' anyway
802 2020-09-03T20:14:08  <yanmaani> I mean, the basic problem is that you can see Monero using QML
803 2020-09-03T20:14:12  <wumpus> it has existed virtually as long as bitcoin has
804 2020-09-03T20:14:15  <yanmaani> and it's not very good
805 2020-09-03T20:14:18  <jeremyrubin> That's not a problem
806 2020-09-03T20:14:23  <jeremyrubin> that's like saying
807 2020-09-03T20:14:27  <wumpus> then we should not copy monery, easy as that
808 2020-09-03T20:14:31  <jeremyrubin> the problem is craigslist.com uses HTML
809 2020-09-03T20:14:40  <jeremyrubin> so it's not good for websites
810 2020-09-03T20:14:45  <wumpus> just one example of a bad GUI using QML doesn't invalidate the framework
811 2020-09-03T20:14:48  <jeremyrubin> (I like craigslist fwiw)
812 2020-09-03T20:14:56  <yanmaani> If there's a persistent pattern of projects using `X` tending to end up like dumpster fires, that's not a good pattern.
813 2020-09-03T20:15:00  <hebasto> jonatack: it would be nice if you find opportunity to join calls
814 2020-09-03T20:15:03  <yanmaani> React/Angular/jQuery have bad reputations
815 2020-09-03T20:15:14  <wumpus> QML is not those
816 2020-09-03T20:15:20  <jonatack> hebasto: are they audio or video?
817 2020-09-03T20:15:27  <hebasto> video
818 2020-09-03T20:15:32  <wumpus> also even those are used for some well-designed GUIs
819 2020-09-03T20:15:55  <instagibbs> there are many people who don't give a fig if something is "native" looking fwiw. That's a tiny part of UX
820 2020-09-03T20:16:01  <wumpus> e.g. jquery is simply a javascript utiltiy framework, it doesnt impose any specific design
821 2020-09-03T20:16:18  <wumpus> instagibbs: only old people care about that :)
822 2020-09-03T20:16:21  <yanmaani> it's also very big and bloated, and sites using it tend to have atrocious performance
823 2020-09-03T20:16:25  <jeremyrubin> +1; there's also an argument for cross platform consistency being good
824 2020-09-03T20:16:27  <hebasto> jonatack: https://github.com/BitcoinDesign/Meta/issues/12
825 2020-09-03T20:16:43  <yanmaani> It's not bad per se for them to be non-native, but it usually correlates strongly to a whole host of pathologies
826 2020-09-03T20:17:05  <wumpus> yes, they are big and bloated, qml is not though
827 2020-09-03T20:17:14  <jeremyrubin> yanmaani: you're just to vague and hand wavey here
828 2020-09-03T20:17:23  <wumpus> yes
829 2020-09-03T20:17:28  <jeremyrubin> if there's a concrete issue with QML, bring it up
830 2020-09-03T20:17:38  <wumpus> this isn't going anywhere, you're just complaining for the sake of complaining here
831 2020-09-03T20:17:39  <yanmaani> Fair point. It usually correlates strongly to GUIs that are sluggish and overly animated.
832 2020-09-03T20:17:48  <jeremyrubin> but "I don't like how other people use it" isn't the kind of reason that will get you traction here
833 2020-09-03T20:17:51  <jonatack> hebasto: thanks. at least it's jitsi, not zoom. might try joining in (with my camera off ;)
834 2020-09-03T20:18:09  <wumpus> if people want to do a QML GUI for bitcoin core, let them
835 2020-09-03T20:18:15  <yanmaani> With bad latency, and so on. I think that switching the UI framework and redesigning the design are two orthogonal issues
836 2020-09-03T20:18:39  <hebasto> jonatack: this morning my camera was off too
837 2020-09-03T20:19:21  <yanmaani> The designers are presumably going to have good layout suggestions like "change the receive tab", not just "bitcoin-qt with a different theme". So I think that it is still going to be useful.
838 2020-09-03T20:19:25  <wumpus> UI designers tend to not know how to work with qt widgets, so that is off the table
839 2020-09-03T20:19:44  <instagibbs> hebasto, remind me in a month or so, I'll probably start listening in on calls too
840 2020-09-03T20:19:53  <wumpus> the idea is to get new people involved here\
841 2020-09-03T20:19:55  <hebasto> yup
842 2020-09-03T20:20:24  <jeremyrubin> I think also w.r.t. layout there's going to be other things that come up that are not layout.
843 2020-09-03T20:20:26  <yanmaani> wumpus: The design work doesn't need any such. You can just draw mockups or whatever and have someone else implement it. You could (presumably) do your mockups in QML just fine, that's true
844 2020-09-03T20:20:30  <wumpus> no one really knows how to work with qt widgets
845 2020-09-03T20:20:46  <wumpus> so who is going to do the work then ?
846 2020-09-03T20:21:19  <yanmaani> Aren't there ordinary developers working on the GUI?
847 2020-09-03T20:21:22  <sipa> for historic context: the current qt widget ui was originally written by wumpus
848 2020-09-03T20:21:40  <wumpus> 'having someone else implement it' doesn't help if no one has the expertise, we're trying to get new people involved
849 2020-09-03T20:21:42  <wumpus> yes
850 2020-09-03T20:21:43  <instagibbs> did I mention how much I love the QT
851 2020-09-03T20:22:06  <yanmaani> GUI implementation expertise =/= design expertise
852 2020-09-03T20:22:08  <wumpus> I'm no longer doing that, though
853 2020-09-03T20:22:31  <instagibbs> I can fudge with stuff in QT, but anything serious I offload to someone else
854 2020-09-03T20:22:46  <sipa> instagibbs: i think that's how most people feel
855 2020-09-03T20:23:29  <wumpus> I started very enthousiastically back in the day and just burned out on it, my idea back then was also to get new people involved, but I had overestimated the amount of people in open source that really know how to use (and are good with) qt widgets GUIs
856 2020-09-03T20:23:38  <hebasto> It seems Qt is focused on QML -- https://www.qt.io/blog/2019/08/07/technical-vision-qt-6
857 2020-09-03T20:23:41  *** Guyver2 has quit IRC
858 2020-09-03T20:23:43  <jonatack> hebasto: thanks. so iiuc, next call is 2020-09-17 at 0600 UTC https://github.com/BitcoinDesign/Meta/issues/13
859 2020-09-03T20:24:00  <yanmaani> if you wanted to get really grandiose, you'd try and coordinate with Electrum folks
860 2020-09-03T20:24:06  <sipa> wumpus: i'd say it was a serious improvement over a pre-release version of wxwidgets :p
861 2020-09-03T20:24:13  <yanmaani> on how to design (but not build) the best GUI
862 2020-09-03T20:24:14  <hebasto> jonatack: correct
863 2020-09-03T20:24:20  <wumpus> sipa: it was! it just got more or less stuck in time
864 2020-09-03T20:25:05  <jonatack> hebasto: ok, noting in calendar
865 2020-09-03T20:25:12  <luke-jr> wumpus: Qt Widgets isn't hard..
866 2020-09-03T20:25:17  <wumpus> fwiw I think the GUI is mostly OK, I do use it myself
867 2020-09-03T20:25:35  <yanmaani> agreed
868 2020-09-03T20:25:46  <wumpus> luke-jr: still, there are very few people who want to use it, saying "it is not hard" is easy to say
869 2020-09-03T20:26:05  <luke-jr> I'm mostly just happy with the current GUI :P
870 2020-09-03T20:26:24  <yanmaani> it has some warts though, like the receive tab and the payment request system
871 2020-09-03T20:26:36  <luke-jr> yanmaani: ?
872 2020-09-03T20:26:37  <jeremyrubin> It's hard to self-evaluate software you've used for a long time. I don't agree with a lot of current design methodology, but there are scientifically rigorous design methodologies e.g. used in the DoD
873 2020-09-03T20:26:40  <yanmaani> I've never seen anyone in the wild use the URI stuff, just "send bitcoin to address X"
874 2020-09-03T20:26:43  <wumpus> WELL improve it then
875 2020-09-03T20:26:44  <wumpus> it's open source
876 2020-09-03T20:26:47  <wumpus> scratch your own itch
877 2020-09-03T20:26:53  <wumpus> instead of complaining complaining complaining
878 2020-09-03T20:27:17  <yanmaani> so it would make more sense to do it like in Electrum - you have a list of addresses, and you can copy them, and see if they're clean.
879 2020-09-03T20:27:21  <wumpus> I'm tired of this, just figure it out
880 2020-09-03T20:27:35  <luke-jr> yanmaani: that's what we had before. why would you want that⁇
881 2020-09-03T20:27:38  <yanmaani> wumpus: the reason I am asking is because I would like to know if others have the same issue
882 2020-09-03T20:27:40  <jeremyrubin> current design methodology ==> general designers, not specific to core
883 2020-09-03T20:27:51  <yanmaani> and, clearly they don't
884 2020-09-03T20:28:05  <luke-jr> the receive tab works great IMO
885 2020-09-03T20:28:56  <yanmaani> Well, there's one click to get an address. It would be nice if you got one just by opening the tab.
886 2020-09-03T20:29:08  <wumpus> I'm looking forward to what people come up with QML in any case
887 2020-09-03T20:29:10  <yanmaani> But if there are good reasons things are as they are, that's obviously a good reason to keep them like they are
888 2020-09-03T20:29:21  <luke-jr> yanmaani: how will it guess the label you want?
889 2020-09-03T20:30:07  <yanmaani> It won't
890 2020-09-03T20:30:24  *** lightlike has quit IRC
891 2020-09-03T20:36:04  <jeremyrubin> achow101: hey look at this travis log https://api.travis-ci.org/v3/job/723885222/log.txt
892 2020-09-03T20:36:23  <jeremyrubin> err https://travis-ci.org/github/bitcoin/bitcoin/jobs/723885222
893 2020-09-03T20:36:46  <jeremyrubin> failure in wallet test, unrelated to PR
894 2020-09-03T20:37:43  <achow101> possibly related to #19853 ?
895 2020-09-03T20:37:44  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19853 | random wallet_basic failure · Issue #19853 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
896 2020-09-03T20:51:25  *** shdx has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
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901 2020-09-03T21:21:25  <phantomcircuit> jeremyrubin, transaction has too long of a mempool chain in a pr changing something about the mempool seems likely related
902 2020-09-03T21:21:54  <jeremyrubin> I'm fairly certain it's unrelated
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904 2020-09-03T21:22:46  <jeremyrubin> the evidence being that all other tests pass & the change does not impact any "logic", just data structures.
905 2020-09-03T21:23:19  <jeremyrubin> This type of error can come up in a test if we're not careful with how we generate a txn/children and if we get everything mined at the correct time
906 2020-09-03T21:23:22  <achow101> it's the 19853 problem. the failures listed there are the same
907 2020-09-03T21:23:46  <jeremyrubin> even better evidence :)
908 2020-09-03T21:28:43  <jonatack> yep, saw the same travis ci failure in a couple of PRs reviewed today
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912 2020-09-03T22:26:15  * luke-jr wonders if it would be bad to alias make='make -j32'
913 2020-09-03T22:29:15  <sipa> luke-jr: i don't know what the optimal number of build threads is, but for test_runner it's huge (a large multiple of core count for me)
914 2020-09-03T22:29:44  <luke-jr> sipa: well, I mean the alias itself - will I regret not having -j1 as a default?
915 2020-09-03T22:29:45  <aj> depends how much memory you have, c++ takes up a fair chunk
916 2020-09-03T22:29:55  <luke-jr> aj: yeah, -j64 wasn't pretty lol
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921 2020-09-03T22:34:30  <phantomcircuit> sipa, i've always done -j for the test_runner, on systems with swap it's faster than any limit
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928 2020-09-03T22:53:54  <yanmaani> If you want it to go faster why not use meson or something?
929 2020-09-03T22:55:45  <sipa> how does a different build system help with that?
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937 2020-09-03T23:04:03  <yanmaani> I've always heard meson was faster
938 2020-09-03T23:04:11  <yanmaani> But it might just be folklore
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940 2020-09-03T23:05:07  <phantomcircuit> yanmaani, the autotools stuff is slow, but that's because it's single threaded, make itself though is quite fast
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942 2020-09-03T23:05:58  <yanmaani> I guess you're bottlenecked by the compiler here. The real big-brained move would be to have some way to track the memory size, and spawn new gcc/clang instances when the memory util goes below some level
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945 2020-09-03T23:07:32  <sipa> yanmaani: every build system has advantages and disadvantages, but replacing one (and all infrastructure we have on top of it) with another would be an enormous effort
946 2020-09-03T23:07:57  <sipa> (and just adding a new one in addition is unlikely to be acceptable, as it means more maintenance work for all contributors)
947 2020-09-03T23:08:25  <sipa> also make is super fast, really - the autotools configuring is pretty slow, but that's not the issue here
948 2020-09-03T23:09:31  <yanmaani> Right, but if you'd have make with some -jAUTO switch, that would be much faster
949 2020-09-03T23:09:49  <yanmaani> if you're constrained by RAM, then sometimes you can run 20 instances at a time and sometimes barely one
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951 2020-09-03T23:10:20  <sipa> one -j per GB or RAM is my rule of thumb, and not more than your number of cores
952 2020-09-03T23:10:23  <sipa> works well
953 2020-09-03T23:12:01  <yanmaani> humans are greedy, they always want more
954 2020-09-03T23:12:15  <yanmaani> money, fame, power, build performance, it's all the same really
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957 2020-09-03T23:23:44  <luke-jr> sipa: I have 64 GB RAM, so doesn't work well for me :P
958 2020-09-03T23:25:21  <luke-jr> yanmaani: something like -l I guess
959 2020-09-03T23:25:32  <phantomcircuit> luke-jr, just get more ram and run everything with -j
960 2020-09-03T23:25:51  <luke-jr> phantomcircuit: -.-
961 2020-09-03T23:25:54  <sipa> luke-jr: your ram is inadequate and you should feel inadequate
962 2020-09-03T23:25:55  <aj> i use -j12 with 16GB and 8 cores, seems to be okay
963 2020-09-03T23:26:22  <sipa> (i have 32 GiB)
964 2020-09-03T23:26:28  <yanmaani> luke-jr: like -l but with RAM yes
965 2020-09-03T23:26:55  <aj> oh, i guess i'm not running a web browser on the computer i compile on, so that probably saves 5000 GB or so of ram
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967 2020-09-03T23:27:09  <yanmaani> and with mechanisms to kill runaway processes and restart them
968 2020-09-03T23:27:37  <achow101> I use -j32 and I have 64 GB
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971 2020-09-03T23:28:36  <sipa> yanmaani: that sounds very useful
972 2020-09-03T23:28:48  *** arowser has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
973 2020-09-03T23:28:58  * sipa volunteers yanmaani to write it
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975 2020-09-03T23:29:14  <aj> yanmaani: systemd as a build system?
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977 2020-09-03T23:31:37  <yanmaani> an ounce of googling is worth a pound of dev time
978 2020-09-03T23:32:49  <dongcarl> aj: Don't give Lennart any new ideas
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981 2020-09-03T23:36:06  <luke-jr> sipa: and you run -j32?
982 2020-09-03T23:36:34  <luke-jr> yanmaani: actually, SIGSTOP is useful when you hit swap
983 2020-09-03T23:36:55  <luke-jr> yanmaani: when/if I do catch myself losing control of RAM, I killall -STOP cc1 and slowly resume them
984 2020-09-03T23:39:26  <yanmaani> yep, a script to do that and you're all set
985 2020-09-03T23:40:23  <gzhao408> O commanders of CI, please grant me these restarts... for time, the greatest thief, has marked my PR with the ugly red ❌ https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19339/checks?check_run_id=1067833523 https://travis-ci.org/github/bitcoin/bitcoin/jobs/723849508
986 2020-09-03T23:46:33  <sipa> luke-jr: yes
987 2020-09-03T23:46:59  <achow101> gzhao408: restarted the travis one. dunno how to restart the cirrus one
988 2020-09-03T23:47:20  <gzhao408> thank you achow101!  🙏
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990 2020-09-03T23:49:54  *** bitcoin-git has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
991 2020-09-03T23:49:54  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] ryanofsky opened pull request #19865: scripted-diff: Restore AssertLockHeld after #19668, remove LockAssertion (master...pr/locka) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19865
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995 2020-09-03T23:56:36  <fanquake> practicalswift requested #19065 as their high-prio, so I've added that
996 2020-09-03T23:56:39  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19065 | tests: Add fuzzing harness for CAddrMan. Fill some fuzzing coverage gaps. by practicalswift · Pull Request #19065 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub