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 40 2021-01-08T01:28:13  <ajonas> luke-jr: To piggyback on sipa's comment re the release notes, maybe I'm being too sensitive, but why would telemetry be ever be included? The mere mention puts me on edge.
 41 2021-01-08T01:28:31  <ajonas> Also, soliciting opposition on Taproot in the release notes seems somewhat out of place.
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 71 2021-01-08T02:45:56  <fanquake> I agree with sipa & ajonas. Really not sure about the addition of that paragraph
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 74 2021-01-08T02:54:14  <luke-jr> ajonas: I mentioned it because it wouldn't be good if users got the false impression we were using telemetry
 75 2021-01-08T02:54:32  <luke-jr> contructive would be suggesting how to rephrase it better :P
 76 2021-01-08T02:55:16  <ajonas> That’s fair.
 77 2021-01-08T02:57:20  <ajonas> I think just dropping that part would be best.
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 79 2021-01-08T03:05:06  <luke-jr> ajonas: won't people assume there is telemetry then?
 80 2021-01-08T03:05:47  <sipa> why would they?
 81 2021-01-08T03:06:18  <sipa> you make it sound like there is a reason to :)
 82 2021-01-08T03:08:41  <sipa> i don't think the adoption of 0.21.0 is any indication specifically about how safe a softfork _in another release_ is
 83 2021-01-08T03:13:04  <luke-jr> it sets a minimum bound if we advise people treat it as one
 84 2021-01-08T03:13:51  <luke-jr> normally if someone says they're measuring usage of software, it's via telemetry
 85 2021-01-08T03:14:24  <fanquake> sets a minimum bound of what?
 86 2021-01-08T03:15:00  <luke-jr> fanquake: if we say "treat 0.21 as Taproot" and 85% upgrade within a month, we can probably assume a month is a safe timeframe to begin signalling
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 88 2021-01-08T03:16:34  <sipa> i don't think saying that makes that true
 89 2021-01-08T03:16:45  <sipa> most people don't read release notes
 90 2021-01-08T03:17:18  <luke-jr> sipa: if they don't, then it's only likely to be a slower upgrade than 0.21.Taproot
 91 2021-01-08T03:17:47  <sipa> so?
 92 2021-01-08T03:18:10  <luke-jr> so then it's (eg) 2 months, and only 1 month is needed; that's a safe error
 93 2021-01-08T03:18:20  <sipa> you seem to want to use adoption of bitcoin core as telemetry (even if not through an explicit call-home)
 94 2021-01-08T03:18:27  <sipa> i don't think we can do that, at all
 95 2021-01-08T03:18:51  <luke-jr> why not?
 96 2021-01-08T03:19:43  <sipa> because putting something about taproot in the release notes doesn't make "upgrading to 0.21.0" equivalent to "taproot will be safe"
 97 2021-01-08T03:19:55  <sipa> even if you hope it is
 98 2021-01-08T03:20:05  <luke-jr> it's a reasonable basis for a guess
 99 2021-01-08T03:20:15  <luke-jr> _nothing_ can provide a guarantee
100 2021-01-08T03:20:59  <sipa> i really don't like telling people that a completely unrelated software update will be used as a signal for something unrelated
101 2021-01-08T03:21:46  <luke-jr> we have nothing else to go on?
102 2021-01-08T03:22:10  <luke-jr> if not past upgrades, then what?
103 2021-01-08T03:22:23  <sipa> how has the ecosystem in the past decides that softforks are safe?
104 2021-01-08T03:23:15  <luke-jr> pure fiat
105 2021-01-08T03:23:37  <sipa> rough consensus
106 2021-01-08T03:24:26  <luke-jr> that's only been to determine if a softfork should happen or not
107 2021-01-08T03:24:48  <luke-jr> and "rough consensus" with no inputs would still be arbitrary fiat
108 2021-01-08T03:26:33  <sipa> that's fair
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110 2021-01-08T03:27:08  <sipa> (that rough consensus is the standard for doing a softfork or not, not for determining a safe timeline)
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112 2021-01-08T03:27:33  <sipa> but i think that a safe timeline should be based on historical data, not about upgrades to a specific software version
113 2021-01-08T03:28:11  <luke-jr> I don't have such historical data, but I suspect it isn't pretty :/
114 2021-01-08T03:28:26  <sipa> maybe
115 2021-01-08T03:28:55  <sipa> it's important that an economically relevant part of the ecosystem updates before activation
116 2021-01-08T03:29:20  <sipa> but it's hard to see how that translates to software upgrade (of an unrelated major release, of one implementation)
117 2021-01-08T03:29:22  <luke-jr> eg, today only 39% of the network seems to run a current version (including most recent 0.18 and 0.19)
118 2021-01-08T03:30:21  <luke-jr> almost 44% run 0.20.x
119 2021-01-08T03:30:56  <luke-jr> based on this data, it would suggest we may need a year or longer before signalling even starts
120 2021-01-08T03:31:17  <sipa> i don't have much of an opinion on that
121 2021-01-08T03:31:32  <luke-jr> my hope of adding to 0.21 relnotes, is to encourage users to upgrade faster and reveal that we can be less slow about it
122 2021-01-08T03:32:17  <sipa> that doesn't mean they'll also be faster when 0.21.taproot comes out
123 2021-01-08T03:32:54  <luke-jr> right, but I'd hope if people upgrade specifically because of that relnote, that they will follow through with 0.21.taproot as well
124 2021-01-08T03:32:57  <sipa> (or alternatively, people may in fact update to a minor release faster than a major one, because they want to wait for the first bugfixes)
125 2021-01-08T03:33:15  <luke-jr> it's okay if 0.21.taproot is faster than 0.21.0
126 2021-01-08T03:33:21  <luke-jr> the problem would only be if it was slower
127 2021-01-08T03:33:39  <sipa> i'm just saying it's a shitty way to measure regardless
128 2021-01-08T03:33:49  <sipa> and i'm not even sure that what we measure is relevant
129 2021-01-08T03:33:59  <sipa> observable nodes aren't necessarily economically relevant
130 2021-01-08T03:34:17  <luke-jr> perhaps, but I don't have anything better to form an informed opinion from
131 2021-01-08T03:36:02  <sipa> perhaps, but putting something in the release notes isn't going to change that
132 2021-01-08T03:39:37  <luke-jr> it will make 0.21.0's upgrade rate more positive and informative
133 2021-01-08T03:39:43  <luke-jr> a new data point to work with
134 2021-01-08T03:40:00  <luke-jr> (probably; at worst, no new data)
135 2021-01-08T03:42:41  <sipa> i still find it very strange to mention that in the release notes
136 2021-01-08T03:42:43  <sipa> it's so unrelated
137 2021-01-08T03:44:54  <luke-jr> how else would we encourage such an effect?
138 2021-01-08T03:45:59  <sipa> i'm not sure that we should
139 2021-01-08T03:47:21  <sipa> and mentioning it just sounds like a weirdly pushy way to upgrade; people should upgrade because they're comfortable with it, not because of what implications their observable node version will have on the network
140 2021-01-08T03:47:33  <luke-jr> hmm
141 2021-01-08T03:48:20  <luke-jr> maybe a link to a web poll would be better - but it's harder to anonymise that trustlessly
142 2021-01-08T03:48:45  <luke-jr> and we have no idea how many don't do the poll
143 2021-01-08T03:49:03  <sipa> indeed, it's an inherently hard problem
144 2021-01-08T03:49:39  <queip> sorry if bad idea, but, perhaps include specific option like --signal-taproot, that appends to user agent information visible in p2p (pro/against/ignore, defaulting to ignore) and mention *that* flag, along with info re taproot, in release notes?
145 2021-01-08T03:49:59  <luke-jr> queip: many people just use the GUI
146 2021-01-08T03:50:06  <luke-jr> and way too late to add such a thing anyway
147 2021-01-08T03:50:10  <queip> (and GUI checkbox in options?)
148 2021-01-08T03:50:42  <sipa> and this is _not_ about acceptance/objection to the idea
149 2021-01-08T03:50:47  <sipa> this is about whether upgrading is safe
150 2021-01-08T03:50:49  <luke-jr> sipa: well, we are about to release 0.20.2 also; we could mention that as an alternative way to show upgrade speed?
151 2021-01-08T03:51:07  <sipa> i'd prefer to not mention it
152 2021-01-08T03:51:12  <sipa> it's just confusing
153 2021-01-08T03:51:51  <luke-jr> then we have nothing :|
154 2021-01-08T03:52:12  <sipa> i don't see the problem
155 2021-01-08T03:52:19  <sipa> why is it so important?
156 2021-01-08T03:52:47  <luke-jr> most people don't want to wait until 2022-2023 for Taproot?
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158 2021-01-08T03:52:56  <sipa> okay?
159 2021-01-08T03:53:13  <luke-jr> and that's the soonest our current data suggests would be safe
160 2021-01-08T03:53:19  <sipa> i don't see why
161 2021-01-08T03:53:48  <sipa> node count on the network is a very weak measurement of economically relevant upgrade activity at best
162 2021-01-08T03:54:45  <luke-jr> it's all we have
163 2021-01-08T03:55:27  <sipa> we have companies that are known to support it
164 2021-01-08T03:55:40  <luke-jr> so companies decide Bitcoin protocol rules now?
165 2021-01-08T03:56:10  <sipa> what? this isn't about deciding rules
166 2021-01-08T03:56:23  <sipa> this is about coordinating a safe upgrade
167 2021-01-08T03:56:38  <luke-jr> safety comes from rule enforcement though
168 2021-01-08T03:57:02  <sipa> yes, by econonically relevant nodes
169 2021-01-08T03:57:29  <luke-jr> but if companies are taken to be those, then companies could impose other rules on everyone else too
170 2021-01-08T03:58:02  <sipa> you're taking this way too far
171 2021-01-08T03:58:13  <luke-jr> …
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173 2021-01-08T03:58:30  <sipa> someone should just propose a reasonable upgrade mechanism, ask for feedback, and do it
174 2021-01-08T03:59:29  <sipa> i have no opinion on what that should be, but i don't think upgrade rates of nodes matter much... and certainly not those of an unrelated software release
175 2021-01-08T04:01:53  <sipa> and making it sound like upgrade rates will even determine that sounds weird and bad; these things should be decided using a public discussion
176 2021-01-08T04:04:29  <luke-jr> there is no forum of discussion for all bitcoin users
177 2021-01-08T04:09:27  <sipa> i would just say "Bitcoin Core 0.21.0 includes an implementation of the proposed Taproot (BIP 341-342) consensus rules, without activation for mainnet. Experimenting with Taproot can be done on the new Signet network where it is already active. Activation parameters will likely be included in a future minor release, and the proposed rules will not be enforced without upgrading to it."
178 2021-01-08T04:09:43  <sipa> or something like
179 2021-01-08T04:09:45  <sipa> that
180 2021-01-08T04:10:25  <sipa> that shows how this release is relevant to taproot, without tying upgrade numbers to how activation will be decided (because, imho, it actually shouldn't)
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182 2021-01-08T04:16:18  <luke-jr> trusting big business to enforce rules is no better than trusting miners to do it
183 2021-01-08T04:16:54  <luke-jr> even if not a perfect metric, node upgrades should be the primary thing to look at to decide when signalling starting is safe
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185 2021-01-08T04:18:32  <luke-jr> at the end of the day, businesses need to use what their income/expenses want to pay/be paid with
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194 2021-01-08T04:56:10  <dhruvm> Where can I learn more about how the hardcoded seeds in contrib/seeds/nodes_main.txt are chosen each release?
195 2021-01-08T04:57:00  <wumpus> dhruvm: #20237 #18506 etc
196 2021-01-08T04:57:03  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/20237 | net: Hardcoded seeds update for 0.21 by laanwj · Pull Request #20237 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
197 2021-01-08T04:57:04  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/18506 | net: Hardcoded seeds update for 0.20 by laanwj · Pull Request #18506 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
198 2021-01-08T04:57:53  <dhruvm> Thanks, wumpus
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202 2021-01-08T05:12:33  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 8 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/86a8b35f321d...76b45d5fd7eb
203 2021-01-08T05:12:34  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 107f33d Carl Dong: depends: Delay expansion of per-package vars
204 2021-01-08T05:12:35  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 3007339 Carl Dong: depends: Pin clang search paths for darwin host
205 2021-01-08T05:12:36  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 77b1ef8 Carl Dong: depends: Remove -fuse-ld line
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208 2021-01-08T05:12:53  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #19683: depends: Pin clang search paths for darwin host (master...2020-08-clang-search-path-robustness) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19683
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231 2021-01-08T07:12:37  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #20881: fuzz: net permission flags in net processing (master...2101-fuzzNet) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/20881
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239 2021-01-08T07:37:46  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/76b45d5fd7eb...5082324225bf
240 2021-01-08T07:37:46  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master a7599c8 Michael Dietz: test: run mempool_compatibility.py even with wallet disabled
241 2021-01-08T07:37:47  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 5082324 MarcoFalke: Merge #20688: test: run mempool_compatibility.py even with wallet disabled...
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244 2021-01-08T07:38:06  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #20688: test: run mempool_compatibility.py even with wallet disabled (master...mempool-compatibility-to-miniwallet) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/20688
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263 2021-01-08T08:22:36  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #20124: Missing blockhash prefix (0x) for Testnet and Regtest (master...master) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/20124
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270 2021-01-08T08:41:50  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #20882: fuzz: Add missing muhash registration (master...2101-fuzzMuhash) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/20882
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276 2021-01-08T09:00:58  <jonasschnelli> achow101: shall I use #20880 for 0.19.0? Or should I stick with my head at c09afdd748816e95843c93609d9e6671c8e92efd (Remove premature make_code_directory) that worked for 0.19.2rc1?
277 2021-01-08T09:01:01  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/20880 | gitian: Use custom MacOS code signing tool by achow101 · Pull Request #20880 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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313 2021-01-08T12:25:35  <jnewbery> luke-jr sipa ajonas fanquake: for what it's worth, I agree with sipa/ajonas/fanquake about the v0.21 release notes. The taproot paragraph seems unsuitable for the release notes.
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318 2021-01-08T12:30:48  <michaelfolkson> luke-jr: It would be nice to rely on nodes rather than companies. But nodes are trivially sybilled and companies aren't.
319 2021-01-08T12:31:43  <michaelfolkson> I guess involving smaller companies is a strategy if you are concerned about big businesses
320 2021-01-08T12:34:34  <michaelfolkson> But agree with general premise that interacting with big businesses when there is clear consensus for the soft fork change across the whole ecosystem is very different to interacting with big businesses when there isn't
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324 2021-01-08T12:59:30  <fanquake> wumpus / sipa can you block kaycoinsUSA
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326 2021-01-08T13:02:10  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/5082324225bf...1e078f17b5dc
327 2021-01-08T13:02:11  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa44417 MarcoFalke: fuzz: Add missing muhash registration
328 2021-01-08T13:02:11  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 1e078f1 MarcoFalke: Merge #20882: fuzz: Add missing muhash registration
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331 2021-01-08T13:02:30  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #20882: fuzz: Add missing muhash registration (master...2101-fuzzMuhash) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/20882
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347 2021-01-08T14:16:04  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/1e078f17b5dc...9158d6f34153
348 2021-01-08T14:16:05  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master faecb74 Jon Atack: Expose integral m_conn_type in CNodeStats, remove m_conn_type_string
349 2021-01-08T14:16:05  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 9158d6f MarcoFalke: Merge #20786: net: [refactor] Prefer integral types in CNodeStats
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352 2021-01-08T14:16:24  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #20786: net: [refactor] Prefer integral types in CNodeStats (master...2012-net) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/20786
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373 2021-01-08T16:09:52  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #20884: script: Improve robustness of bitcoind.service on startup (master...210108-systemd) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/20884
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396 2021-01-08T18:17:49  <achow101> jonasschnelli: until 20880 is merged, I think you should stick with the commit I tagged "with-codesign-allocate" which should be your current HEAD
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399 2021-01-08T18:31:54  <jonasschnelli> achow101: okay
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402 2021-01-08T18:39:59  <jonasschnelli> gitian builders: 0.19.2 detached signatures are pushed.
403 2021-01-08T18:42:14  <hebasto> jonasschnelli: only win sigs in https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoin-detached-sigs/tree/0.19
404 2021-01-08T18:42:32  <jonasschnelli> hebastohttps://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoin-detached-sigs/tree/v0.19.2
405 2021-01-08T18:43:02  <jonasschnelli> I might have forgotten to push the branch itself (only the tag)
406 2021-01-08T18:43:16  <jonasschnelli> now also the branch... thanks for pointing out hebasto
407 2021-01-08T18:43:19  <achow101> I think you forgot to push the branch
408 2021-01-08T18:43:58  <jonasschnelli> indeed. But I guess the tag is whats count. But of couse we want the branch as well
409 2021-01-08T18:44:09  <jonasschnelli> done
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411 2021-01-08T18:56:48  <jonasschnelli> 0.19.2: a642483bb66fe03be10eef3811f0bd7db43b809933a03517290303281bce90f8  bitcoin-osx-signed.dmg
412 2021-01-08T18:57:13  <achow101> match
413 2021-01-08T18:57:24  <luke-jr> 0.19.2 was tagged? was there any indication anyone tested the rc?
414 2021-01-08T18:58:34  <luke-jr> _one_ node on the network doesn't give me any such confidence :/
415 2021-01-08T19:07:51  <sipa> achow101: when i run gitian-build.py it doesn't build signed osx
416 2021-01-08T19:07:59  <sipa> "Already up to date"
417 2021-01-08T19:08:13  <achow101> missing -s?
418 2021-01-08T19:09:02  <sipa> ./gitian-build.py --os o -j 7 -m 7000 --sign --detach-sign --no-commit sipa 0.19.2
419 2021-01-08T19:09:34  <sipa> oh, silly me
420 2021-01-08T19:09:37  <sipa> it's --os m
421 2021-01-08T19:09:38  <achow101> --os m for macos
422 2021-01-08T19:16:22  <luke-jr> …
423 2021-01-08T19:22:11  <sipa> 10:55:17 < wumpus> btw, is it time to tag 0.19.2? doesn't seem another rc is needed
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440 2021-01-08T21:29:51  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] mjdietzx opened pull request #20889: test: ensure any failing method in MiniWallet leaves no side-effects (master...test-miniwallet-no-side-effects) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/20889
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444 2021-01-08T21:37:03  <wumpus> luke-jr: no idea, I wouldn't have chosen myself to do a release on an old branch like that, it's always the same story
445 2021-01-08T21:37:44  <wumpus> "oh did anyone test the rc at all", no idea, it's possible no one runs it at all and it's purely wasted time
446 2021-01-08T21:38:42  <wumpus> in any case if anyone tested it they didn't report any problems with it
447 2021-01-08T21:40:06  <sipa> i wonder how common extensive rc processes are for old bacport bugfix releases in other projects
448 2021-01-08T21:40:18  <sipa> it's not that they are untested; all our automated testing for them passes
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451 2021-01-08T22:00:01  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #20890: doc: Add explicit macdeployqtplus dependencies install step (master...210108-deploy) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/20890
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453 2021-01-08T22:02:04  <sipa> aj, kallewoof: i added a section about signet to the 0.21 release notes draft; please have a look and maybe expand on it
454 2021-01-08T22:10:18  <luke-jr> sipa: true
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462 2021-01-08T23:15:36  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 opened pull request #20891: rpc: Remove deprecated bumpfee behavior (master...rm-bumpfee-deprecated) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/20891
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