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 29 2021-02-04T02:12:03  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/ea96e17e1f2c...5f18080c29c2
 30 2021-02-04T02:12:03  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master f22a3ec fanquake: build: make macOS HOST in download-osx generic
 31 2021-02-04T02:12:04  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 5f18080 fanquake: Merge #21065: build: make macOS HOST in download-osx generic
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 34 2021-02-04T02:12:22  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #21065: build: make macOS HOST in download-osx generic (master...correct_host_download_osx) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21065
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 44 2021-02-04T02:46:40  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #21078: guix: only download sources for hosts being built (master...guix_selective_download) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21078
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 75 2021-02-04T07:52:53  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/5f18080c29c2...5a429d3d0fec
 76 2021-02-04T07:52:53  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 51f3752 Ivan Metlushko: Add release notes for listdescriptors RPC
 77 2021-02-04T07:52:54  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 5a429d3 MarcoFalke: Merge #21049: Add release notes for listdescriptors RPC
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 80 2021-02-04T07:53:22  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #21049: Add release notes for listdescriptors RPC (master...patch-1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21049
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 88 2021-02-04T08:13:27  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 5 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/5a429d3d0fec...4e946ebcf111
 89 2021-02-04T08:13:28  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fac05cc MarcoFalke: wallet: [refactor] Pass ArgsManager to WalletAppInit
 90 2021-02-04T08:13:28  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa06bce MarcoFalke: test: Add tests
 91 2021-02-04T08:13:29  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 7777105 MarcoFalke: refactor: Move all command dependend checks to ExecuteWalletToolFunc
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 95 2021-02-04T08:13:52  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #20715: util: Add ArgsManager::GetCommand() and use it in bitcoin-wallet (master...2012-argsCmd) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/20715
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 99 2021-02-04T08:20:15  <wumpus> glozow: you just had the bad luck he latched on to your PR, we should probably have blocked him immediately after his attack on Randy
100 2021-02-04T08:21:15  <wumpus> but I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt initially and didn't know about the history
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106 2021-02-04T08:37:20  <wumpus> it's disappointing that github still doesn't allow deleting inline comments
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111 2021-02-04T09:00:57  <fanquake> Yes. Can't even access the editing dropdowns for the comments by the deleted account
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119 2021-02-04T09:23:57  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/4e946ebcf111...f1239b70d116
120 2021-02-04T09:23:57  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 20677ff Carl Dong: validation: Guard all chainstates with cs_main
121 2021-02-04T09:23:58  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master f1239b7 MarcoFalke: Merge #21025: validation: Guard chainman chainstates with cs_main
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124 2021-02-04T09:24:16  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #21025: validation: Guard chainman chainstates with cs_main (master...2021-01-chainman-activechainstate-locking) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21025
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127 2021-02-04T09:31:21  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/f1239b70d116...ea5a50f92a6f
128 2021-02-04T09:31:22  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 98892f3 Fabian Jahr: doc: Improve setup_clean_chain documentation
129 2021-02-04T09:31:22  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 590bda7 Fabian Jahr: scripted-diff: Remove setup_clean_chain if default is not changed
130 2021-02-04T09:31:23  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master ea5a50f MarcoFalke: Merge #21042: doc, test: Improve setup_clean_chain documentation
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133 2021-02-04T09:31:40  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #21042: doc, test: Improve setup_clean_chain documentation (master...scc-docs) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21042
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157 2021-02-04T11:00:02  <Kimi_> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21075#discussion_r570125634 - this comment made me think. Would .editorconfig (https://editorconfig.org/) be useful to avoid similar issues sooner?
158 2021-02-04T11:06:36  <wumpus> Kimi_: maybe! hadn't heard of that yet
159 2021-02-04T11:07:36  <Kimi_> wumpus, It's actually quite good. It's a simple file where you specify code style of your project. Like tabs vs spaces, indentation etc.
160 2021-02-04T11:07:45  <Kimi_> It's supported by many editors & IDEs
161 2021-02-04T11:08:00  <Kimi_> (MSVS, VSCode and many others)
162 2021-02-04T11:09:20  <wumpus> yea having a standard shared between editors makes me much more enthousiastic about it than things that are specific to one environment
163 2021-02-04T11:11:55  <aj> huh, that's cute
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167 2021-02-04T11:23:16  <wumpus> fanquake: also noticed that, weird
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169 2021-02-04T11:34:48  <aj> wumpus: looked into any of the decentralised bug-reports-in-git things? be kind-of neat to track PR reviews in git eventually
170 2021-02-04T11:39:35  <wumpus> aj: i looked at radicle but it didn't seem ready yet, haven't looked any further
171 2021-02-04T11:41:46  <aj> wumpus: there's https://github.com/MichaelMure/git-bug which seems a bit more ready; but it's just bugs -- doesn't seem like there's anything non-web for code review stuff
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173 2021-02-04T11:45:23  <wumpus> thanks, will take a look! yes, code review seems to be the most difficult thing to offer, even github's own command-line client doesn't do it yet (though the API can)
174 2021-02-04T11:45:23  <wumpus> I mean, *inline code review*
175 2021-02-04T11:47:18  <aj> yeah
176 2021-02-04T11:47:41  <aj> i tried using the API to convert a text file to a review a while back, but it didn't work in confusing ways
177 2021-02-04T11:48:37  <wumpus> I guess old mailing list based open source development had some advantage in that regard, at least it's semi decentralized (only needs some way to distribute messages all-to-all), that said, mail is broken and with the volume of changes it'd become insane
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181 2021-02-04T11:53:14  <wumpus> a replacement system really would need some UI and structured way to handle metadata
182 2021-02-04T11:53:24  <wumpus> and also moderation, it sucks but we can't do without that
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184 2021-02-04T11:56:05  <wumpus> "works offline: in a plane or under the sea? Keep reading and writing bugs!" is nice, sure we can do this sort of by cloning bitcoin-gh-metadata but only in one way
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187 2021-02-04T12:10:45  <jnewbery> it's nice that we can export all the metadata into bitcoin-gh-metadata, but it's only moderately useful until there are other bug trackers/review platforms that can import it and reconstruct all of the cross-references.
188 2021-02-04T12:11:20  <jnewbery> at least we have the export. If github gets so bad we can no longer usable, there's the possibility of reconstructing all the PR/review discussion
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190 2021-02-04T12:11:47  <jnewbery> *we can no longer use it
191 2021-02-04T12:12:14  <wumpus> it's already useful for all kinds of local tooling/analysis, but yeah
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194 2021-02-04T12:15:07  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #21080: fuzz: Configure check for main function (take 2) (master...2101-fuzzTake2) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21080
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196 2021-02-04T12:17:05  <jnewbery> agree about tooling/analysis. I use it to track review activity across the repo
197 2021-02-04T12:18:06  <wumpus> someone could theoretically make a GUI or CLI on top of it to edit things (e.g. add reviews, comments, PRs, issues), which can submit back the changes, then it'd 'only' need some kind of bot to validate, merge and reconcile changes for the project metadata--then again i'd really prefer not to get into writing this kind of tooling myself and hope someone else will make something usable
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200 2021-02-04T12:20:08  <wumpus> it doen't seem terribly difficult but is a huge amount of work
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202 2021-02-04T12:20:57  <wumpus> i'd say git already handles a lot of the hard parts
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204 2021-02-04T12:23:28  <wumpus> i'm not convinced we need the full feature set of github, but something that handles only bugs is clearly not enough
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208 2021-02-04T12:24:57  <aj> year PR review seems to be github (and gitlab and other similar fully centralised web-based things) or email
209 2021-02-04T12:25:05  <aj> year? yeah
210 2021-02-04T12:28:02  <wumpus> yes
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213 2021-02-04T12:36:10  <aj> oh, i wonder if i could make the "p2p dashboard" thing a patch to https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoin-maintainer-tools/pull/77
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215 2021-02-04T12:41:56  <wumpus> sure, more functionality is welcome
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219 2021-02-04T12:45:40  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] brunoerg opened pull request #21081: test, refactor: fix the unreachable code at feature_taproot (master...taproot-test-return) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21081
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221 2021-02-04T12:45:54  <jonatack> I wonder how different interaction would be, and if less moderation would be needed, without github's gamified activity graph and web browser "buttons to smash everywhere" UI...what if it was command line only...
222 2021-02-04T12:46:51  <jonatack> nowadays that may sound like a luddite, but hey
223 2021-02-04T12:48:25  <jonatack> (and the github notion of contributor list = commit list)
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226 2021-02-04T12:59:11  <wumpus> jonatack: i agree that Microsoft kind of went over the top with this, too much focus on as you say, easy buttons to smash everywhere... i think a lot of stupid spam could be avoided by adding just a little bit more friction
227 2021-02-04T13:01:29  <wumpus> that said we also face persistent crazies with technical knowledge (e.g. zoltan yesterday) so i doubt it'd remove all need for moderation
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229 2021-02-04T13:06:27  <wumpus> and some kind of GUI is nice, i mean if people with less cli know-how like GUI designers and users can somehow interact with the repositories, at least to propose issues/PRs and comment, that's good
230 2021-02-04T13:07:38  <wumpus> but for more advanced things such as merging, no UI is needed, we already use our own script after all
231 2021-02-04T13:10:05  <wumpus> no need for a big green click-me button 🙂  Iand don't get me started on the editing files through the website mis-feature
232 2021-02-04T13:12:21  <wumpus> also i'd actually prefer to configure the settings for repositories through a configuration file instead of a web interface
233 2021-02-04T13:13:02  <aj> hmm, how do you get the failure in #21039 to appear? on current master i just get the error, not assertion failure?
234 2021-02-04T13:13:03  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21039 | refactor: dont throw in GetChainName() by fanquake · Pull Request #21039 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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236 2021-02-04T13:22:13  <aj> ah, you need includeconf= to trigger it i think
237 2021-02-04T13:32:31  <fanquake> Don't think I've ever used includeconf=, so you shouldn't
238 2021-02-04T13:32:36  <fanquake> just src/bitcoind -testnet -regtest
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240 2021-02-04T13:40:37  <aj> oh, maybe it's just when bitcoin.conf is entirely missing that you don't get the assert failure
241 2021-02-04T13:40:50  <aj> yeah, looks like
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256 2021-02-04T14:39:24  <aj> wumpus: oh, apparently there's a thing called git-appraise! https://github.com/google/git-appraise eg  https://git-appraise-web.appspot.com/static/review.html#?repo=23824c029398&review=de9ebcdf2a1e93365eefc2739f73f2c68a280c11
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261 2021-02-04T14:49:10  <MarcoFalke> aj: Nice finds. Keep them coming
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317 2021-02-04T18:31:00  <wumpus> aj: "Distributed Code Review For Git" neat!
318 2021-02-04T18:31:14  <wumpus> it's a ... Google project?!
319 2021-02-04T18:32:29  <aj> wumpus: in the sense it's explicitly not one, yeah? (or at least, git-appraise-web README has that disclaimer?)
320 2021-02-04T18:33:05  <wumpus> (doesn't seem to rely on any google services to use it, just surprised it's under https://github.com/google/git-appraise)
321 2021-02-04T18:33:08  <aj> yuck, both require signing google CLA
322 2021-02-04T18:33:29  <wumpus> hhmm
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324 2021-02-04T18:40:11  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #21082: refactor: Treat ArgsManager::Flags as uint32_t explicitly (master...2102-unsigned) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21082
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335 2021-02-04T18:54:57  <jnewbery> at the risk of trying to design a distributed git review system here, I don't think you want the review data to be in the same repo as the code. It should be some external system that references the git repo.
336 2021-02-04T18:56:32  *** az0re <az0re!~az0re@gateway/tor-sasl/az0re> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
337 2021-02-04T18:58:03  <MarcoFalke> PSA: All fuzz ci tests are failing due to a silent merge conflict in the integer sanitizer build
338 2021-02-04T18:58:06  <MarcoFalke> #21082 might fix that
339 2021-02-04T18:58:07  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21082 | refactor: Treat ArgsManager::Flags as uint32_t explicitly by MarcoFalke · Pull Request #21082 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
340 2021-02-04T18:59:29  <hebasto> in `feature_pruning.py` "This test takes 30 mins or more (up to 2 hours)" seems a bit outdated :)
341 2021-02-04T18:59:51  <MarcoFalke> yeah, I think it was optimized a bit
342 2021-02-04T18:59:55  <MarcoFalke> could remove that comment
343 2021-02-04T19:00:18  <MarcoFalke> is it meeting time?
344 2021-02-04T19:00:33  <jnewbery> yes
345 2021-02-04T19:01:04  <achow101> meeting?
346 2021-02-04T19:01:22  <wumpus> #startmeeting
347 2021-02-04T19:01:26  <jonasschnelli> hi
348 2021-02-04T19:01:27  <kanzure> hi
349 2021-02-04T19:01:29  <achow101> hi
350 2021-02-04T19:01:32  <jonasschnelli> (bot again down?)
351 2021-02-04T19:01:33  <MarcoFalke> hi
352 2021-02-04T19:01:36  <jonatack> hi
353 2021-02-04T19:01:38  <michaelfolkson> hi
354 2021-02-04T19:01:40  <fjahr> hi
355 2021-02-04T19:01:41  <hebasto> hi
356 2021-02-04T19:01:43  <rpite> hi
357 2021-02-04T19:01:46  <meshcollider> hi
358 2021-02-04T19:01:50  <warren> hi
359 2021-02-04T19:01:52  <warren> hi
360 2021-02-04T19:01:57  <wumpus> i did get a PM from the bot
361 2021-02-04T19:02:16  <wumpus> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: achow101 aj amiti ariard bluematt cfields Chris_Stewart_5 digi_james dongcarl elichai2 emilengler fanquake fjahr gleb glozow gmaxwell gwillen hebasto instagibbs jamesob jb55 jeremyrubin jl2012 jnewbery jonasschnelli jonatack jtimon kallewoof kanzure kvaciral lightlike luke-jr maaku marcofalke meshcollider michagogo moneyball morcos nehan NicolasDorier paveljanik
362 2021-02-04T19:02:18  <wumpus> petertodd phantomcircuit promag provoostenator ryanofsky sdaftuar sipa vasild wumpus
363 2021-02-04T19:02:49  <wumpus> doesn't look like there are any topics proposed in http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedmeetingtopics.txt for this week
364 2021-02-04T19:03:04  <wumpus> any last minute topics?
365 2021-02-04T19:03:36  <warren> Is the TODO list of what needs to be written to release 0.22 with guix figured out?
366 2021-02-04T19:03:52  <MarcoFalke> warren: dongcarl wanted to host a topic next week IIRC
367 2021-02-04T19:04:02  <warren> k
368 2021-02-04T19:04:06  <jamesob> hi
369 2021-02-04T19:04:07  <aj> hi
370 2021-02-04T19:04:37  <wumpus> #topic High priority for review
371 2021-02-04T19:04:37  <core-meetingbot> topic: High priority for review
372 2021-02-04T19:04:46  <MarcoFalke> Can I haz #20944?
373 2021-02-04T19:04:48  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/20944 | rpc: Return total fee in getmempoolinfo by MarcoFalke · Pull Request #20944 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
374 2021-02-04T19:04:53  <wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8   8 blockers, 1 bugfix, 2 chasing concept ACK
375 2021-02-04T19:04:58  <MarcoFalke> (it is blocking some fuzzers I wrote)
376 2021-02-04T19:05:25  <wumpus> MarcoFalke: added
377 2021-02-04T19:05:26  <achow101> #17331 for me
378 2021-02-04T19:05:29  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/17331 | Use effective values throughout coin selection by achow101 · Pull Request #17331 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
379 2021-02-04T19:06:02  <wumpus> achow101: also added
380 2021-02-04T19:06:12  <MarcoFalke> #20017 needs rebase, so can be removed for now?
381 2021-02-04T19:06:15  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/20017 | rpc: Add RPCContext by promag · Pull Request #20017 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
382 2021-02-04T19:06:20  <wumpus> 10 blockers again
383 2021-02-04T19:06:28  <jamesob> Have a small fuzzer kink and a few comment updates on the highprio assumeutxo PR I'm going to address tonight
384 2021-02-04T19:06:31  <jonatack> jonasschnelli: do you want to add #20962?
385 2021-02-04T19:06:33  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/20962 | Alter the ChaCha20Poly1305@Bitcoin AEAD to the new specification by jonasschnelli · Pull Request #20962 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
386 2021-02-04T19:06:41  <jonasschnelli> not for now
387 2021-02-04T19:06:42  *** lightlike <lightlike!~lightlike@p200300c7ef23860034e57a079c48a31f.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
388 2021-02-04T19:07:19  <wumpus> MarcoFalke: seems it's been needing rebase for two weeks
389 2021-02-04T19:07:19  <MarcoFalke> jamesob: The fuzzer is a problem in master, I think
390 2021-02-04T19:07:20  <jonasschnelli> I'd like to keep #15946
391 2021-02-04T19:07:20  <jonatack> jonasschnelli: ok. i thought it might be the blocker for bip324 impl
392 2021-02-04T19:07:24  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15946 | Allow maintaining the blockfilterindex when using prune by jonasschnelli · Pull Request #15946 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
393 2021-02-04T19:07:30  <wumpus> ping @promag
394 2021-02-04T19:07:37  <jonasschnelli> jonatack: thanks. Need to finalize the BIP first
395 2021-02-04T19:07:44  <promag> MarcoFalke: it has only 3 concept ack, not sure if itw worth rebasing
396 2021-02-04T19:07:47  <sipa> can i have #bitcoin-core-dev #20861 ?
397 2021-02-04T19:07:48  <sipa> eh
398 2021-02-04T19:07:49  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/20861 | BIP 350: Implement Bech32m and use it for v1+ segwit addresses by sipa · Pull Request #20861 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
399 2021-02-04T19:07:55  <wumpus> although it's for chasing concept ACK so i don't think it matters if it's rebased for concept ack
400 2021-02-04T19:07:57  <jamesob> MarcoFalke: oh maybe in addition to this thing - I forgot to update fuzz based on a new lock annotation
401 2021-02-04T19:08:09  <wumpus> only for blockers
402 2021-02-04T19:08:12  <promag> wumpus: right
403 2021-02-04T19:08:17  <MarcoFalke> Also #19716 doesn't pass gitian, so can be removed as well? (Maybe replace by #21036 because it is blocked on that)?
404 2021-02-04T19:08:21  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19716 | build: Qt 5.15.x by fanquake · Pull Request #19716 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
405 2021-02-04T19:08:22  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21036 | gitian: Bump descriptors to Focal for 22.0 by fanquake · Pull Request #21036 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
406 2021-02-04T19:09:12  <wumpus> MarcoFalke: makes sense, done
407 2021-02-04T19:10:24  <wumpus> any other topics?
408 2021-02-04T19:10:28  <jonatack> #19145 has re-acks by provoostenator and I, seems close
409 2021-02-04T19:10:31  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19145 | Add hash_type MUHASH for gettxoutsetinfo by fjahr · Pull Request #19145 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
410 2021-02-04T19:10:41  <MarcoFalke> topic: replace github?
411 2021-02-04T19:10:47  <wumpus> jonatack: good to know, will have a look
412 2021-02-04T19:11:12  <wumpus> #topic Replacing github
413 2021-02-04T19:11:13  <core-meetingbot> topic: Replacing github
414 2021-02-04T19:11:34  <jamesob> Oh boy
415 2021-02-04T19:11:37  <wumpus> it's clear to me that this has to happen at some point but I don't think we found any projects ready for this
416 2021-02-04T19:11:43  <jonasschnelli> didn't we had this topic recently?
417 2021-02-04T19:12:20  <sipa> is there a concrete candidate to look at?
418 2021-02-04T19:12:35  <wumpus> if there are, I'd suggest first setting up a parallel / mirror, so that people can try
419 2021-02-04T19:12:41  <fjahr> It seems to be a constant topic since people get more and more frustrated
420 2021-02-04T19:12:58  <wumpus> switching is not going to be a flag day thing
421 2021-02-04T19:13:04  <MarcoFalke> sipa: Most of them seem "alpha" stage, so we'd have to play around with them
422 2021-02-04T19:13:18  <luke-jr> was there a concrete problem with GitLab?
423 2021-02-04T19:13:27  <dongcarl> Might this be an important enough thing that we should also look into building it ourselves / hacking existing open source solutions if none of the existing solutions work well enough?
424 2021-02-04T19:13:28  <jamesob> I suspect that there will be even more frustration with an alternative. The big argument would be that github is a worrisome dependency to have
425 2021-02-04T19:13:33  <wumpus> luke-jr: yes it's just another centralized thing
426 2021-02-04T19:13:42  <promag> wont the alternative have other issues?
427 2021-02-04T19:13:47  <aj> doing more tooling like gh-meta and ghwatch.py in the meantime seems like a good start?
428 2021-02-04T19:13:52  <jamesob> promag: right
429 2021-02-04T19:13:52  <luke-jr> wumpus: eh, as opposed to what?
430 2021-02-04T19:13:55  <MarcoFalke> Funny, if GitHub had a simple moderator queue or other means of spam protection and a stable website, we probably wouln't be talking about this
431 2021-02-04T19:14:02  <wumpus> aj:  right, that's my idea
432 2021-02-04T19:14:06  <fjahr> Maybe there should be a wiki page to collect promising projects, then people post there experiences with mirrors
433 2021-02-04T19:14:22  <fjahr> Obviously this will be a long way
434 2021-02-04T19:14:37  <wumpus> luke-jr: git-appraise, radicle, git-bug, and various other systems that use git for propagation instead of relying (entirely) on central hosted infrastructure
435 2021-02-04T19:14:38  <jonasschnelli> aj: good point.
436 2021-02-04T19:14:53  <jonasschnelli> We can enhance the UX with custom tools
437 2021-02-04T19:15:11  <MarcoFalke> luke-jr: github and gitlab are hosted on the same infrastructure
438 2021-02-04T19:15:28  <luke-jr> MarcoFalke: same?
439 2021-02-04T19:15:30  <jamesob> We get a ton of utility out of the PR review flow; something that both has that and isn't centralized is going to be tough to find I think
440 2021-02-04T19:15:32  <MarcoFalke> Though, it might be easier to build a two-way-mirror for review comments for gitlab
441 2021-02-04T19:15:35  <wumpus> you can self-host gitlab or gitia etc but it'd be just another central server
442 2021-02-04T19:15:37  <MarcoFalke> luke-jr: google cloud?
443 2021-02-04T19:15:54  <wumpus> we need something that doesn't rely on a contributor to host something IMO
444 2021-02-04T19:16:02  <aj> wumpus: there's also bugseverywhere fwiw https://bugs-everywhere.readthedocs.io/en/latest/tutorial.html
445 2021-02-04T19:16:17  <wumpus> aj: ok definitely makes sense to keep track of these in a wiki
446 2021-02-04T19:16:29  <wumpus> aj: this is too many for me to keep track of in my head :-)
447 2021-02-04T19:16:45  <aj> wumpus: yeah, they're super hard to search for too
448 2021-02-04T19:16:55  <aj> "git bug tracker"...
449 2021-02-04T19:16:56  <fjahr> MarcoFalke: I don't think the infrastructure is causing the frustrations. Maybe the first question is: is the focus to fix usability issues with GH or to decentralize or we want to do both at the same time
450 2021-02-04T19:17:13  <wumpus> I think we can do both at the same time
451 2021-02-04T19:17:32  <wumpus> primarily it needs a sane way of doing code review that *doesn't* lose comments
452 2021-02-04T19:18:03  <wumpus> this is the most serious issue with github, the collapsing comments and hidden diffs
453 2021-02-04T19:18:22  *** wvr <wvr!~wvr@2a02:2e02:9694:8600:198b:8ab6:60b8:292d> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
454 2021-02-04T19:18:24  <MarcoFalke> fjahr: the infrastructure is the cause for centralization (and the risk of getting shut down at any time). IIRC some countries can't access github
455 2021-02-04T19:18:27  *** wvr- <wvr-!~wvr@2a02:2e02:9694:8600:198b:8ab6:60b8:292d> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
456 2021-02-04T19:18:42  <fjahr> wumpus: maybe Gitlab doesn't lose comments, I don't know, but maybe that's a quick improvement on the usability front
457 2021-02-04T19:19:09  <aj> MarcoFalke: they recently announced they'd opened back up to some of those countries iirc
458 2021-02-04T19:19:13  <wumpus> fjahr: it's just not worth all the trouble of switching just to go to gitlab, you'll keep hopping
459 2021-02-04T19:19:27  <MarcoFalke> aj: "some" ;)
460 2021-02-04T19:19:30  <wumpus> aj: sure but who knows for how long the point is to not be dependent
461 2021-02-04T19:19:36  <aj> MarcoFalke: one, maybe - https://github.blog/2021-01-05-advancing-developer-freedom-github-is-fully-available-in-iran/
462 2021-02-04T19:20:09  <fjahr> MarcoFalke: agree, centralization is the same at GL but it might fix the losing comments issue which most recent frustrations seemed to come from
463 2021-02-04T19:21:07  <jamesob> I'm guessing there'll be other unknown frustrations that pop up given GL isn't as actively developed as GH (AFAIK); and there is a pretty big cost to switching; CI integrations and drahtbot then need to be changed over
464 2021-02-04T19:21:17  <jamesob> IMO we should be sure we want to move to whatever we move to
465 2021-02-04T19:21:22  <luke-jr> (btw, disclosure: my web browsers have been compromised for months due to https://github.com/greatsuspender/thegreatsuspender/issues/1263 )
466 2021-02-04T19:21:39  <MarcoFalke> wiki: https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoin-devwiki/wiki/GitHub-alternatives-for-Bitcoin-Core
467 2021-02-04T19:21:45  <MarcoFalke> proudly hosted by GitHub
468 2021-02-04T19:21:51  <fjahr> lol
469 2021-02-04T19:21:54  <dongcarl> lol
470 2021-02-04T19:21:59  <luke-jr> XD
471 2021-02-04T19:22:02  <wumpus> jamesob: I agree, if we switch it needs to be with something we have control over ourselves and plan to stick with for a long time
472 2021-02-04T19:22:38  <aj> MarcoFalke: i'm sure they'll remain proud to host it while it implies there's no alternatives to github?
473 2021-02-04T19:22:58  <MarcoFalke> aj: Typing as we speak
474 2021-02-04T19:23:02  <aj> heh
475 2021-02-04T19:23:08  <luke-jr> lol
476 2021-02-04T19:23:22  <aj> MarcoFalke: (missed opportunity to write "typing as i type")
477 2021-02-04T19:23:39  <wumpus> MarcoFalke: thanks!
478 2021-02-04T19:24:09  *** xurzua <xurzua!~xurzua@> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
479 2021-02-04T19:24:32  <jnewbery> so were the meetings that fanquake/theuni/moneyball had with GH just a waste of time? They listened and then didn't actually fix anything that's important for us?
480 2021-02-04T19:24:40  <wumpus> I think that concludes the topic for now, please look around if you find projects and try them out
481 2021-02-04T19:25:19  <wumpus> jnewbery: I don't think it's a waste of time to discover what your requirements are, whoever implements them
482 2021-02-04T19:25:34  <jnewbery> it's astonishing to me that one of the most important pieces of infrastructure for the open source community is owned by one of the most capitalized companies in the world and they can't even get a webpage to load
483 2021-02-04T19:26:03  <luke-jr> eh, one with a long history of deceptive warfare against open source
484 2021-02-04T19:26:05  <aj> jnewbery: i feel like you're overrating how competent humanity is at making computers work...
485 2021-02-04T19:26:07  <wumpus> I mean, yes, they didn't really do much, but talking about things like that was probably constructive anyway
486 2021-02-04T19:26:46  <promag> jnewbery: hold on, we have dark theme
487 2021-02-04T19:26:53  <jnewbery> wumpus: I'm not suggesting that they shouldn't have tried (and I'm very grateful that they did!), but github don't seem to have done anything about the problems.
488 2021-02-04T19:26:53  <michaelfolkson> It is Big Corp syndrome. Post acquisition the magic dies
489 2021-02-04T19:27:06  <wumpus> jnewbery: agree on that
490 2021-02-04T19:27:24  <jonasschnelli> didn't we had a direct contact with GitHub for a while?
491 2021-02-04T19:27:25  <jamesob> promag: lol
492 2021-02-04T19:27:37  * fjahr notes dark theme as hard requirement
493 2021-02-04T19:27:43  <MarcoFalke> jonasschnelli: fanquake does have direct contact but they ignore him pretty much
494 2021-02-04T19:27:57  <jonasschnelli> MarcoFalke: build up pressure?
495 2021-02-04T19:28:08  <MarcoFalke> (not judging them. They probably have paying clients)
496 2021-02-04T19:28:45  <MarcoFalke> jonasschnelli: I don't think open source is a priority for them
497 2021-02-04T19:28:48  <sipa> fjahr: GH has a dark theme
498 2021-02-04T19:28:51  <jonasschnelli> IMO GitHub has its flaws,.. but I don't see a better alternative and GH is certenly better than just tracking everything in a txt file
499 2021-02-04T19:28:58  <wumpus> I was a paying client but stopped paying when they were taken over by Microsoft
500 2021-02-04T19:28:59  <aj> #15847 #20227 #16472 #13411 might be useful
501 2021-02-04T19:29:01  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15847 | Feedback for GitHub CEO · Issue #15847 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
502 2021-02-04T19:29:02  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/20227 | Dependency on GitHub · Issue #20227 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
503 2021-02-04T19:29:03  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/16472 | Github started banning/restricting whole countries · Issue #16472 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
504 2021-02-04T19:29:04  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/13411 | Moving to self-hosted issue and patch management · Issue #13411 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
505 2021-02-04T19:29:13  <jonasschnelli> thanks aj
506 2021-02-04T19:29:13  <fjahr> sipa: yeah, just for the switching candidates ;)
507 2021-02-04T19:29:20  <sipa> ha yes
508 2021-02-04T19:29:35  <promag> I wonder how would gitlab behave with big prs with tens of comments and code
509 2021-02-04T19:29:48  <sipa> "tens of comments"
510 2021-02-04T19:29:52  <jonatack> I don't think GitHub is incentized to make the changes that we would like; I suspect maintaining a very uniform UX is key for GitHub, which might preclude per-repo configurable feature toggling and adjustable interaction friction
511 2021-02-04T19:29:53  <sipa> there's literally dozens of us!
512 2021-02-04T19:30:02  <promag> thousands
513 2021-02-04T19:30:32  <sipa> i think this discussion should move to the wiki; there isn't much to do here expect looking for alternatives and evaluating them
514 2021-02-04T19:30:33  <jonatack> GitHub's aim appears to be more faceBook than myspace in UX standardization
515 2021-02-04T19:30:44  <promag> their api probably returns everything no?
516 2021-02-04T19:30:44  <sipa> and getting back to the topic in a meeting in a few weeks maybe
517 2021-02-04T19:30:51  <jonasschnelli> I suggest that moneyball take up the contact again (as of #15847)
518 2021-02-04T19:30:53  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15847 | Feedback for GitHub CEO · Issue #15847 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
519 2021-02-04T19:31:01  <wumpus> sipa: agree
520 2021-02-04T19:31:06  <jamesob> jonatack: *adds myspace to list of alternatives*
521 2021-02-04T19:31:09  <jonatack> which would explain why even dark theme took so long for GitHub to agree to do
522 2021-02-04T19:31:09  <fjahr> jonatack: I they would load comments as well as fb that would be great :D
523 2021-02-04T19:31:56  <wumpus> any other topics?
524 2021-02-04T19:32:31  <wumpus> #endmeeting
525 2021-02-04T19:32:31  <core-meetingbot> topic: Bitcoin Core development discussion and commit log | Feel free to watch, but please take commentary and usage questions to #bitcoin | Channel logs: http://www.erisian.com.au/bitcoin-core-dev/, http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/ | Meeting topics http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedmeetingtopics.txt / http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedwalletmeetingtopics.txt
526 2021-02-04T19:32:31  <core-meetingbot> Meeting ended Thu Feb  4 19:32:31 2021 UTC.
527 2021-02-04T19:32:31  <core-meetingbot> Minutes:        https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings/logs/bitcoin-core-dev/2021/bitcoin-core-dev.2021-02-04-19.01.moin.txt
528 2021-02-04T19:33:11  *** promag <promag!~promag@> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
529 2021-02-04T19:33:47  *** promag <promag!~promag@> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
530 2021-02-04T19:34:56  <michaelfolkson> Can I tentatively ask a question about Taproot activation? It appears to me there are three options for lockinontimeout
531 2021-02-04T19:35:18  <michaelfolkson> Set to true in a Core release, set to false in a Core release or....
532 2021-02-04T19:35:57  <michaelfolkson> Community consensus that a Core release will have false and this will be followed by another Core release in 6 months with true (if needed)
533 2021-02-04T19:36:45  <michaelfolkson> Does that third option sound viable? Or would Core not want an instruction on what to do in 6 months?
534 2021-02-04T19:38:29  *** promag <promag!~promag@> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
535 2021-02-04T19:38:52  <sdaftuar> i would personally not agree with a commitment to release a consensus change at any specific point in the future.
536 2021-02-04T19:39:17  <michaelfolkson> Ok thanks, that's helpful sdaftuar
537 2021-02-04T19:39:58  <michaelfolkson> I don't want to discuss the merits of true, false. Go to #taproot-activation for that...
538 2021-02-04T19:41:03  <michaelfolkson> If anyone else has any thought on that let me know. Thanks
539 2021-02-04T19:41:33  <michaelfolkson> On that third option specifically
540 2021-02-04T19:43:27  <jonatack> fjahr: oh, agreed. i use gh pr now for reading review comments via the cli; as of v1.5 it shows all of the comments with one cli command and is far faster to use. just takes getting used to.
541 2021-02-04T19:46:11  <fjahr> Yeah, thanks, I need to give it another chance
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549 2021-02-04T20:52:30  <sipa> sdaftuar: impressive, you have a 100% acceptance rate on your bitcoin SE answers
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551 2021-02-04T21:14:15  <sdaftuar> i strive for perfection
552 2021-02-04T21:14:30  <sdaftuar> now if only my bip acceptance rate were so high... :)
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554 2021-02-04T21:23:04  <aj> sdaftuar: maybe you should game the system and post your bips on stackoverflow?
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560 2021-02-04T21:56:18  <luke-jr> sdaftuar: I can't suggest what to add to Motivation because I literally have no idea what the point is
561 2021-02-04T21:56:36  <luke-jr> re https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/1052
562 2021-02-04T21:59:49  <sipa> sdaftuar, luke-jr: the second paragraph of sdaftuar's ML post about it (https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-January/018340.html) is probably a good start
563 2021-02-04T22:00:39  <luke-jr> ah
564 2021-02-04T22:01:07  <luke-jr> so the point is to allow N*M light connections where being unsure means only N could be accepted?
565 2021-02-04T22:01:24  <luke-jr> (though IIRC our limits are due to FD set sizes and open fd limits currently?)
566 2021-02-04T22:03:56  <sipa> luke-jr: my understanding is this: we have a default inbound connection limit (125) which is based on the observation that every "fully fledged" connection has a significant impact on processing costs and bandwidth (among other things), so we can't just raise that without impacting worst-case performance of average nodes
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569 2021-02-04T22:04:58  <sipa> if we instead knew for block-only connections (on the incoming side) that they'd *never* need transactions, the worst part is reduced, and perhaps it becomes acceptable to have more incoming connections per peer, given that some percentage of them are reserved for non-block-relaying connections
570 2021-02-04T22:05:19  <sipa> right now, the block-only nature of a connection is only known on the outbound side
571 2021-02-04T22:05:21  <luke-jr> I see
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574 2021-02-04T22:14:35  <sdaftuar> sipa: thank you for translating
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