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  9 2021-03-11T01:13:11  <fanquake> I'm aware of some large companies that are using zmq extensively in production
 10 2021-03-11T01:18:07  <jeremyrubin> the ZMQ interface we have always struck me as a bit weird
 11 2021-03-11T01:18:15  <jeremyrubin> I guess if it works for people it works
 12 2021-03-11T01:18:33  <jeremyrubin> but I think phantomcircuit your intuition is correct that it might be used wrongly
 13 2021-03-11T01:18:37  <sipa> it'd be saner if it contained just txids/block hashes
 14 2021-03-11T01:18:44  <sipa> and didn't contain any actual data
 15 2021-03-11T01:20:46  <phantomcircuit> fanquake, then they are risking financial loss
 16 2021-03-11T01:20:57  <phantomcircuit> the zmq interface has zero reliability guarantees
 17 2021-03-11T01:21:15  <fanquake> let us know what you plan on replacing it with
 18 2021-03-11T01:21:19  <phantomcircuit> sipa, even then it's pointless, you need to poll to guarantee consistency, so why not just poll?
 19 2021-03-11T01:21:40  <phantomcircuit> fanquake, let me know whose using it so i can not use them
 20 2021-03-11T01:23:02  <sipa> phantomcircuit: depending on the application it's perfectly fine to poll infrequently, and also poll immediately when a zmq notification comes in
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 22 2021-03-11T01:26:01  <phantomcircuit> sipa, the class of application for which that's ok is basically restricted to the websites displaying the mempool
 23 2021-03-11T01:26:18  <phantomcircuit> sipa, if the zmq interface was narrowed to be a single bit "you want to poll" that would be fine
 24 2021-03-11T01:26:22  <phantomcircuit> but also nobody would use that
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 26 2021-03-11T01:27:40  <instagibbs> sipa, there are multiple subscriptions for just hashes, "sequence" notifier also lets you detect dropped messages and fallback to a poll
 27 2021-03-11T01:28:16  <sipa> right, that was added
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 57 2021-03-11T03:34:16  <phantomcircuit> instagibbs, yes but that means you have a system where failing to do something results in a synchronization failure instead of a system where you're polling
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 69 2021-03-11T04:14:27  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jarolrod opened pull request #21414: doc: update macOS depends platform triplets (master...macOS-platform-triplets) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21414
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 79 2021-03-11T06:04:14  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #21415: refactor: remove Optional & nullopt (master...remove_optional_wrapper) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21415
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 81 2021-03-11T06:09:09  <wumpus> phantomcircuit: i don't want to remove zmq, i really like to have a notification mechanism that is not 'call out to a process'
 82 2021-03-11T06:09:30  <wumpus> phantomcircuit: that is the thing i dislike deeply so let's just agree to disagree
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 84 2021-03-11T06:11:38  <phantomcircuit> wumpus, how about not sending actual data
 85 2021-03-11T06:11:43  <wumpus> *all* notification mechanisms have some degree of unreliability, there is no such thing as 100% reliable notification
 86 2021-03-11T06:12:05  <wumpus> the sequence numbers solve most concerns it pretty well imo and yes you *can* use it wrong
 87 2021-03-11T06:12:16  <wumpus> we had this discussion soo many times
 88 2021-03-11T06:13:56  <wumpus> i like having actual data this is good for low-latency default path
 89 2021-03-11T06:15:42  <wumpus> there are valid reasons for using different kinds of designs, different compromises
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 96 2021-03-11T07:18:22  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #21408: doc: Explain how NACK commit_id works (master...2103-docNack) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21408
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110 2021-03-11T08:47:22  <vasild> "1 ACK" label :)
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112 2021-03-11T08:57:19  <jnewbery> wumpus: I agree. We know that people and companies use ZMQ so there'd need to be a much stronger reason to remove it than some other people don't like it. If you don't like ZMQ, don't use it.
113 2021-03-11T09:00:13  <MarcoFalke> I don't think we've ever had issues with ACK spam
114 2021-03-11T09:00:33  <MarcoFalke> Yes, there are issues where bot click the GitHub approve button
115 2021-03-11T09:00:45  <MarcoFalke> But that doesn't influence ACKs in any way
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117 2021-03-11T09:04:09  <MarcoFalke> Currently it is impossible to find out whether a pull has at least one ACK without loading the page and going through all comments
118 2021-03-11T09:04:50  <fanquake> Any relevant ACK will always have to be within the most recent few comment no?
119 2021-03-11T09:05:19  <MarcoFalke> Sure, so you'll have to find the most recent commit and then read the comments from there
120 2021-03-11T09:05:25  <jonatack> My impression was ACK quality > quantity (even CONTRIBUTING.md discusses weighing by merit)
121 2021-03-11T09:05:51  <MarcoFalke> Of course the number of ACKs doesn't say anything about their quality
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123 2021-03-11T09:06:08  <jonatack> (or quality of feedback... I've invalidated 7 ACKs before to address review feedback)
124 2021-03-11T09:07:20  <MarcoFalke> We have contributors complain that the pull request process (or what state a pull request is in) is not transparent, so I don't see why an attempt to make it more transparent is rejected so strongly
125 2021-03-11T09:08:03  <MarcoFalke> bitcoinacks already does that, so the label is just bringing that to the "native GitHub" feel
126 2021-03-11T09:09:26  <jonatack> The process can sometimes be confusing (what does this mean, what is the appropriate response, etc). It's a human one, after all.
127 2021-03-11T09:10:42  <jonatack> I don't have an answer to it, though.
128 2021-03-11T09:12:14  <promag> phantomcircuit: in doc/zmq.md "Therefore, subscribers should validate the received data since it may be out of date, incomplete or even invalid"
129 2021-03-11T09:13:31  <vasild> MarcoFalke: I like the "1 ACK" label, would it be invalidated by a force-push? Should it be?
130 2021-03-11T09:13:58  <promag> phantomcircuit: production code should not rely just on zmq, I'd expect people using pubsub zmq would know that
131 2021-03-11T09:14:09  <vasild> "1 outdated ACK" label :)
132 2021-03-11T09:14:09  <MarcoFalke> Yes, my idea was to only count the ACKs that are also counted in a merge commit
133 2021-03-11T09:14:37  <promag> phantomcircuit: but its a great way to avoid frequent polling
134 2021-03-11T09:15:39  <vasild> so you wrote some script to deduce if a PR has at least one ACK (on the latest topmost commit)?
135 2021-03-11T09:16:03  <MarcoFalke> the script isn't written yet. It was an idea from yesterday
136 2021-03-11T09:16:11  <vasild> you did that manually?
137 2021-03-11T09:16:28  <MarcoFalke> yes, for two pull requests
138 2021-03-11T09:17:42  <vasild> I think that is (would be) very useful
139 2021-03-11T09:18:32  <vasild> maybe even (feature creep!) "2 ACKs", "3 ACKs", "many ACKs"
140 2021-03-11T09:18:50  <promag> sorry guys, but what is the goal of those labels?
141 2021-03-11T09:19:24  <MarcoFalke> (1) to see in conflicts how many ACKs they have (and how many acks would be invalidated)
142 2021-03-11T09:19:57  <MarcoFalke> (2) to see if a pull request has $n ACKs and might be ready for merge
143 2021-03-11T09:23:26  <promag> ty
144 2021-03-11T09:23:36  <vasild> (3) (maybe that is just me) Sometimes I am in the mood of reviewing pristine PRs (no ACKs yet) and sometimes in the mood of helping with some PR that is on the brink of a merge and may need just one more ACK
145 2021-03-11T09:25:31  <vasild> ... or sometimes PRs that have numbers that end in ...55 or commits that begin with fa...
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157 2021-03-11T09:55:08  <promag> MarcoFalke: how about having a gh project for that? there you would have a auto managed column with cards ordered by "maturity" or so
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163 2021-03-11T10:18:44  <MarcoFalke> I think the number of ACKs doesn't say how mature a pull is. It also depends on what code the pull is touching
164 2021-03-11T10:19:24  <MarcoFalke> For example a test-only change with one ACK is likely more mature than a versionbits change with two ACKs
165 2021-03-11T10:20:00  <MarcoFalke> s/is likely/may be/
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169 2021-03-11T10:50:16  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 13 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/63314b8211d7...767bb7d5c56b
170 2021-03-11T10:50:17  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master a04aac4 Carl Dong: validation: Remove extraneous LoadGenesisBlock function prototype
171 2021-03-11T10:50:18  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master d0de61b Carl Dong: miner: Pass in chainstate to BlockAssembler::CreateNewBlock
172 2021-03-11T10:50:18  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 46b7f29 Carl Dong: scripted-diff: Invoke CreateNewBlock with chainstate
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175 2021-03-11T10:50:35  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #21270: [Bundle 4/n] Prune g_chainman usage in validation-adjacent modules (master...2020-09-libbitcoinruntime-v6) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21270
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181 2021-03-11T10:52:22  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 12 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/767bb7d5c56b...e828fc8f528d
182 2021-03-11T10:52:23  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master d769b33 fanquake: build: only pass -optimized-tools to qt in debug mode
183 2021-03-11T10:52:24  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 3272e34 Hennadii Stepanov: build: Add xkbcommon 0.8.4
184 2021-03-11T10:52:25  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 06cd0da fanquake: build: qt 5.12.10
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187 2021-03-11T10:52:40  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #21376: depends: Qt 5.12.10  (master...qt_5_12_10_enhanced) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21376
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189 2021-03-11T10:52:47  <hebasto> \o/
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194 2021-03-11T11:10:59  <promag> MarcoFalke: right, I'm not saying maturity is # of acks, but there could be multiple columns for each sorting criteria
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196 2021-03-11T11:13:48  <promag> (#-of-updated-ack x sum-of-label-weigthts) / (1 + #-conflicts)
197 2021-03-11T11:14:02  <promag> X)
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271 2021-03-11T14:28:33  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Sjors opened pull request #21417: Misc external signer improvement and HWI 2 support  (master...2021/03/hwi2) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21417
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274 2021-03-11T14:28:54  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 4 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/e828fc8f528d...92cf3a22e3c7
275 2021-03-11T14:28:55  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 612f746 Wladimir J. van der Laan: util: Add RAII TokenPipe
276 2021-03-11T14:28:55  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master c3e6fde Wladimir J. van der Laan: shutdown: Use RAII TokenPipe in shutdown
277 2021-03-11T14:28:55  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master e017a91 Wladimir J. van der Laan: bitcoind: Add -daemonwait option to wait for initialization
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280 2021-03-11T14:29:13  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #21007: bitcoind: Add -daemonwait option to wait for initialization (master...2021-01-daemonwait) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21007
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283 2021-03-11T14:34:38  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj opened pull request #21418: contrib: Make systemd invoke dependencies only when ready (master...2021-03-systemd-daemonwait) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21418
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341 2021-03-11T18:10:38  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/92cf3a22e3c7...e9b6400a1ef2
342 2021-03-11T18:10:38  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 3a16b5e Jon Atack: test: add missing logging to wallet_groups.py
343 2021-03-11T18:10:39  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master c62f9bc Jon Atack: test: use fewer blocks in wallet_groups and move sync call
344 2021-03-11T18:10:40  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master e9b6400 MarcoFalke: Merge #21411: test: add logging, reduce blocks, move sync_all in wallet_ g...
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348 2021-03-11T18:11:07  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #21411: test: add logging, reduce blocks, move sync_all in wallet_ groups (master...wallet_groups-test) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21411
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354 2021-03-11T18:44:54  <bitcoin-git> [gui] MarcoFalke merged pull request #188: Write PSBTs to file with binary mode (master...bin-mode-psbts) https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gui/pull/188
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358 2021-03-11T18:45:13  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/e9b6400a1ef2...b972913c330a
359 2021-03-11T18:45:13  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master cc3971c Andrew Chow: GUI: Write PSBTs to file with binary mode
360 2021-03-11T18:45:14  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master b972913 MarcoFalke: Merge bitcoin-core/gui#188: Write PSBTs to file with binary mode
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368 2021-03-11T19:00:32  <wumpus> #startmeeting
369 2021-03-11T19:00:32  <core-meetingbot> Meeting started Thu Mar 11 19:00:32 2021 UTC.  The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings.
370 2021-03-11T19:00:33  <core-meetingbot> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
371 2021-03-11T19:00:35  <jonasschnelli> hi
372 2021-03-11T19:00:36  <achow101> hi
373 2021-03-11T19:00:50  <hebasto> hi
374 2021-03-11T19:00:50  <wumpus> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: achow101 aj amiti ariard bluematt cfields Chris_Stewart_5 digi_james dongcarl elichai2 emilengler fanquake fjahr gleb glozow gmaxwell gwillen hebasto instagibbs jamesob jb55 jeremyrubin jl2012 jnewbery jonasschnelli jonatack jtimon kallewoof kanzure kvaciral lightlike luke-jr maaku marcofalke meshcollider michagogo moneyball morcos nehan NicolasDorier paveljanik
375 2021-03-11T19:00:52  <sipa> hi
376 2021-03-11T19:00:52  <wumpus> petertodd phantomcircuit promag provoostenator ryanofsky sdaftuar sipa vasild wumpus
377 2021-03-11T19:00:58  <sipsorcery>  hi
378 2021-03-11T19:01:13  <luke-jr> hi
379 2021-03-11T19:01:25  <wumpus> no proposed meeting topics this week it seems (http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedmeetingtopics.txt), any last-minute things anyone would like to discuss?
380 2021-03-11T19:01:30  <jnewbery> hii
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382 2021-03-11T19:01:36  <meshcollider> hi
383 2021-03-11T19:01:45  <jonatack> hi
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386 2021-03-11T19:02:17  <wumpus> #topic High priority for review
387 2021-03-11T19:02:17  <core-meetingbot> topic: High priority for review
388 2021-03-11T19:02:28  <fjahr> hi
389 2021-03-11T19:02:30  <wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8  9 blockers, 2 chasing concept ACK
390 2021-03-11T19:02:48  <wumpus> anything to add / remove or (almost) ready for merge ?
391 2021-03-11T19:04:02  <wumpus> or does anyone want to plug their already added to-review PR :)
392 2021-03-11T19:04:17  <sipa> i hope #20861 is close :)
393 2021-03-11T19:04:20  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/20861 | BIP 350: Implement Bech32m and use it for v1+ segwit addresses by sipa · Pull Request #20861 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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395 2021-03-11T19:04:32  <wumpus> good !
396 2021-03-11T19:04:40  <wumpus> yes, that one was in the review club
397 2021-03-11T19:05:44  <achow101> I'd like to plug #21083 so that I can move on to taproot activation as my hi prio
398 2021-03-11T19:05:46  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21083 | wallet: Avoid requesting fee rates multiple times during coin selection by achow101 · Pull Request #21083 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
399 2021-03-11T19:06:00  <jnewbery> sipa: I'm planning to leave a full review very soon
400 2021-03-11T19:06:06  *** warren_ is now known as warren
401 2021-03-11T19:06:12  <sipa> jnewbery: aight
402 2021-03-11T19:06:14  <warren> hi
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404 2021-03-11T19:06:48  <wumpus> achow101: that one *sounds* quite straightforward at least
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406 2021-03-11T19:07:44  <luke-jr> iirc it isn't as straightforward as it sounds - but probably not very hard either
407 2021-03-11T19:07:53  <wumpus> okay if nothing else, that concludes the meeting, thanks everyone for attending and see you next week
408 2021-03-11T19:07:59  <luke-jr> XD
409 2021-03-11T19:08:22  <jnewbery> thanks wumpus. Short and sweet!
410 2021-03-11T19:08:27  <wumpus> #endmeeting
411 2021-03-11T19:08:28  <core-meetingbot> topic: Bitcoin Core development discussion and commit log | Feel free to watch, but please take commentary and usage questions to #bitcoin | Channel logs: http://www.erisian.com.au/bitcoin-core-dev/, http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/ | Meeting topics http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedmeetingtopics.txt / http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedwalletmeetingtopics.txt
412 2021-03-11T19:08:28  <core-meetingbot> Meeting ended Thu Mar 11 19:08:27 2021 UTC.
413 2021-03-11T19:08:28  <core-meetingbot> Minutes:        https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings/logs/bitcoin-core-dev/2021/bitcoin-core-dev.2021-03-11-19.00.moin.txt
414 2021-03-11T19:08:30  <aj> hi
415 2021-03-11T19:08:34  <aj> oops :)
416 2021-03-11T19:09:09  <aj> wumpus: #21380 for hipri?
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418 2021-03-11T19:09:11  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21380 | Add fuzzing harness for versionbits by ajtowns · Pull Request #21380 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
419 2021-03-11T19:10:24  <jonasschnelli> aj: added
420 2021-03-11T19:10:34  <aj> jonasschnelli: tnx
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