1 2021-04-08T00:01:00  <fanquake> sipa: I often see similar timeouts with descriptor related tests
  2 2021-04-08T00:01:33  <fanquake> Ideally the CreateWallet tests shouldn't take > 3 minutes, regardless of disk speed
  3 2021-04-08T00:06:20  <achow101> phantomcircuit: do you happen to know what the actual difference between synchronous=FULL and synchronous=NORMAL is?
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  5 2021-04-08T00:12:10  <sipa> according to the docs, normal doesn't always sync, and thus has a small risk of corruoting the database if power fails at just the wrong timr
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  7 2021-04-08T00:12:26  <sipa> (unless WAL, which is safe in combination with normal)
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 12 2021-04-08T00:17:03  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/cb79cabdd9d9...2e9031f95d2b
 13 2021-04-08T00:17:04  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 94c7dd9 Yerzhan Mazhkenov: doc: Fix typos from codespell lint
 14 2021-04-08T00:17:04  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2e9031f fanquake: Merge #21626: doc: Fix typos from codespell
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 17 2021-04-08T00:17:22  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #21626: doc: Fix typos from codespell (master...master) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21626
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 20 2021-04-08T00:19:08  <achow101> it looks like normal is 1 sync while full is 2 syncs. but changing to normal still results in a timeout
 21 2021-04-08T00:22:09  <achow101> i guess for tests we could just do synchronous=off
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 46 2021-04-08T01:24:26  <midnight> sipa: ping, can you re-center your hashrate graphs?
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 48 2021-04-08T01:28:28  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 opened pull request #21634: tests: Skip SQLite fsyncs while testing (master...optimize-sqlite) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21634
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 55 2021-04-08T02:20:42  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #18194: Bugfix: GUI: Remove broken ability to edit the address field in the sending address book (master...bugfix_gui_edit_sendaddr) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18194
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 73 2021-04-08T03:48:29  <phantomcircuit> achow101, no i don't, it's pretty vague
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 99 2021-04-08T06:00:04  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #18909: [0.20] Fix release tarball (0.20...fix_release_tarball-0.20) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18909
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108 2021-04-08T06:10:51  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #19120: QA: Support making RPC calls with different authentication (master...qa_rpc_with_auth) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19120
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121 2021-04-08T07:09:28  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/2e9031f95d2b...6664211be2b6
122 2021-04-08T07:09:28  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 9044522 Russell Yanofsky: Drop JSONRPCRequest constructors after #21366
123 2021-04-08T07:09:29  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 6664211 MarcoFalke: Merge #21574: Drop JSONRPCRequest constructors after #21366
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126 2021-04-08T07:09:48  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #21574: Drop JSONRPCRequest constructors after #21366 (master...pr/simpreq) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21574
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152 2021-04-08T09:28:39  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke reopened pull request #21445: cirrus: Use SSD cluster for speedup (master...2103-ciSSD) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21445
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159 2021-04-08T10:16:58  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #19048: test: changing signature of wait_until(). (master...fixing-waituntil) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19048
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168 2021-04-08T11:00:43  <Kiminuo> sdaftuar, Hi, is there a reason why lines L288 and L289 were not deleted in PR #12127 (https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/12127/files#diff-f4f454edbfa1a878a9d4ad4371611c6c2812b7c77d2bd01baa66606524b61f9eL290)?
169 2021-04-08T11:00:45  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/12127 | Remove unused mempool index by sdaftuar · Pull Request #12127 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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184 2021-04-08T12:52:51  <NiamhOnMars> hi I was wondering why the original bitcoin code had some irc related code to join the #bitcoin IRC channel
185 2021-04-08T12:54:49  <elichai2> NiamhOnMars: IIRC it was used to find other peers (before the dns seeding)
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191 2021-04-08T13:37:09  <_flow_> that
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260 2021-04-08T18:57:46  <luke-jr> #proposedmeetingtopic attempts to use "dev muscle" to force MTP against community consensus of BIP8
261 2021-04-08T19:01:11  <wumpus> #startmeeting
262 2021-04-08T19:01:14  <jonasschnelli> hi
263 2021-04-08T19:01:19  <sipsorcery> hi
264 2021-04-08T19:01:34  <hebasto> hi
265 2021-04-08T19:01:51  <wumpus> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: achow101 aj amiti ariard bluematt cfields Chris_Stewart_5 digi_james dongcarl elichai2 emilengler fanquake fjahr gleb glozow gmaxwell gwillen hebasto instagibbs jamesob jb55 jeremyrubin jl2012 jnewbery jonasschnelli jonatack jtimon kallewoof kanzure kvaciral lightlike luke-jr maaku marcofalke meshcollider michagogo moneyball morcos nehan NicolasDorier paveljanik
266 2021-04-08T19:01:53  <wumpus> petertodd phantomcircuit promag provoostenator ryanofsky sdaftuar sipa vasild wumpus
267 2021-04-08T19:02:01  <jonatack> hi
268 2021-04-08T19:02:03  <amiti> hi
269 2021-04-08T19:02:06  <fjahr> hi
270 2021-04-08T19:02:08  <jeremyrubin> hallo
271 2021-04-08T19:02:22  <phantomcircuit> uhm hello
272 2021-04-08T19:02:33  <achow101> hi
273 2021-04-08T19:02:39  <jnewbery> hi
274 2021-04-08T19:02:41  <luke-jr> hi
275 2021-04-08T19:02:51  <wumpus> one proposed meeting topic: attempts to use "dev muscle" to force MTP against community consensus of BIP8 (luke-jr)
276 2021-04-08T19:02:55  <wumpus> any last minute suggestions?
277 2021-04-08T19:03:04  *** Talkless <Talkless!~Talkless@mail.dargis.net> has quit IRC (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
278 2021-04-08T19:03:22  <wumpus> (as a reminder: you can propose a meeting topic with #proposedmeetingtopic <topic> at any time during the week)
279 2021-04-08T19:03:59  <wumpus> #topic High priority for review
280 2021-04-08T19:03:59  <core-meetingbot> topic: High priority for review
281 2021-04-08T19:04:12  <wumpus> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8 has 11 blockers, 2 chasing concept ACK
282 2021-04-08T19:04:23  <wumpus> anything to add, remove, or that is ready to merge?
283 2021-04-08T19:04:25  <jonatack> #21392 seems closed, remove?
284 2021-04-08T19:04:29  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21392 | Implement BIP 8 based Speedy Trial activation by achow101 · Pull Request #21392 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
285 2021-04-08T19:04:40  <wumpus> jonatack: looks like it
286 2021-04-08T19:04:55  <jonatack> (not opining, just info)
287 2021-04-08T19:04:56  <achow101> remove for now
288 2021-04-08T19:05:23  <wumpus> should we add #21377 instead?
289 2021-04-08T19:05:26  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21377 | Speedy trial support for versionbits by ajtowns · Pull Request #21377 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
290 2021-04-08T19:05:31  <luke-jr> replace with #19573
291 2021-04-08T19:05:33  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19573 | Replace unused BIP 9 logic with draft BIP 8 by luke-jr · Pull Request #19573 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
292 2021-04-08T19:05:37  <luke-jr> #21377 is NACK
293 2021-04-08T19:05:38  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21377 | Speedy trial support for versionbits by ajtowns · Pull Request #21377 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
294 2021-04-08T19:05:49  <achow101> We can add 21377 to hi prio
295 2021-04-08T19:05:56  <luke-jr> it would be an abuse of position to merge 21377
296 2021-04-08T19:06:08  <wumpus> ok never mind...
297 2021-04-08T19:06:14  <wumpus> anything else?
298 2021-04-08T19:06:25  <achow101> #17331 for me
299 2021-04-08T19:06:29  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/17331 | Use effective values throughout coin selection by achow101 · Pull Request #17331 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
300 2021-04-08T19:06:47  <jeremyrubin> +1 #21377 for high priority for review
301 2021-04-08T19:06:50  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21377 | Speedy trial support for versionbits by ajtowns · Pull Request #21377 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
302 2021-04-08T19:07:02  <wumpus> achow101: added
303 2021-04-08T19:07:03  <jeremyrubin> I think irrespective of if it is merged, reviewing it is high priority
304 2021-04-08T19:08:06  <wumpus> in the end it's up to the author (ajtowns) if he wants it has high prio, but you're right that is separate from whether it can be merged or not
305 2021-04-08T19:08:58  <jeremyrubin> he can ack adding it after the meeting, unclear if he's present
306 2021-04-08T19:09:09  <wumpus> yes
307 2021-04-08T19:09:58  <wumpus> that concludes high priority for review unless anyone else has suggstions
308 2021-04-08T19:10:21  <wumpus> #topic Attempts to use "dev muscle" to force MTP against community consensus of BIP8 (luke-jr)
309 2021-04-08T19:10:22  <core-meetingbot> topic: Attempts to use "dev muscle" to force MTP against community consensus of BIP8 (luke-jr)
310 2021-04-08T19:10:27  <jonatack> #19521 freshly needs rebase but should be close to ready, it's been through a number of review rounds by provoostenator and i
311 2021-04-08T19:10:30  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19521 | Coinstats Index by fjahr · Pull Request #19521 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
312 2021-04-08T19:10:45  <luke-jr> I find it quite disturbing a few devs are attempting a NYA-like push to make consensus changes outright disregarding the community consensus around BIP 8.
313 2021-04-08T19:10:52  <wumpus> jonatack: good to know!
314 2021-04-08T19:11:41  <jeremyrubin> As the author behind the quoted "dev muscle", I would like to note that the context in which it was used was referring to sufficient resources to review and audit the corresponding PR
315 2021-04-08T19:11:47  <luke-jr> and for no real apparent reason but to spite UASFers by reverting all the improvements made over 2017 - widely acknowledged as improvements until LOT=True began to move forward
316 2021-04-08T19:12:13  <jeremyrubin> It is not in the context of devs muscling the community, which i think it has been represented to be in the setting of this topic
317 2021-04-08T19:12:21  <jnewbery> As usual, luke-jr is misrepresenting
318 2021-04-08T19:12:27  <luke-jr> no, I am not
319 2021-04-08T19:12:44  <luke-jr> nor is that usual
320 2021-04-08T19:13:44  <achow101> there is a person who has raised an unaddressed objection to BIP 8, therefore it does not have consensus
321 2021-04-08T19:13:49  <luke-jr> jnewbery: I don't know what you have against me, but trolling liek that is unproductive and malicious.
322 2021-04-08T19:14:01  <jeremyrubin> anyone is free to review the logs for relevent context http://gnusha.org/taproot-activation/2021-04-06.log
323 2021-04-08T19:14:27  <jnewbery> at the very least you're misrepresenting the intent of jeremy's words
324 2021-04-08T19:14:29  <luke-jr> achow101: even if that were true,  all but one person is still far more than this MTP nonsense
325 2021-04-08T19:14:30  <jeremyrubin> i've also summarized from https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-April/018746.html
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327 2021-04-08T19:14:47  <luke-jr> jnewbery: read the log
328 2021-04-08T19:14:56  <jnewbery> I've read it, thanks
329 2021-04-08T19:15:23  <achow101> at this time, 21377 is in a state where everyone except luke-jr is okay with it, and onlyu luke-jr has stated "no" and "nack" without providing any reasoning behind those statements
330 2021-04-08T19:15:34  <achow101> simply asserting "no" and "nack" is not an objection
331 2021-04-08T19:15:42  <jnewbery> achow101: +1
332 2021-04-08T19:16:00  <luke-jr> achow101: that isn't true
333 2021-04-08T19:16:20  <jeremyrubin> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md#conceptual-review
334 2021-04-08T19:16:23  <luke-jr> there is practically no community support for 21377, just a handful of devs
335 2021-04-08T19:16:36  <jeremyrubin> A NACK needs to include a rationale why the change is not worthwhile. NACKs without accompanying reasoning may be disregarded.
336 2021-04-08T19:16:42  <luke-jr> and most of you acknowledge height is better
337 2021-04-08T19:16:43  <achow101> luke-jr: so all of the people who participated in the meeting yesterday or all devs?
338 2021-04-08T19:16:51  <achow101> *are
339 2021-04-08T19:17:06  <luke-jr> achow101: I didn't say that, but it's far fewer than the consensus around BIP8
340 2021-04-08T19:17:13  <luke-jr> not even comparable
341 2021-04-08T19:17:29  <jeremyrubin> numerous ACKs on https://gist.github.com/michaelfolkson/92899f27f1ab30aa2ebee82314f8fe7f#gistcomment-3695024 which is nonspecific to height or MTP
342 2021-04-08T19:17:59  <luke-jr> the whole point of ST in the first place, was to be a neutral start between the simple disagreement on LOT
343 2021-04-08T19:18:09  <luke-jr> throwing away the consensus on everything else defeats the point
344 2021-04-08T19:18:18  <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: that gist was about height
345 2021-04-08T19:18:28  <jnewbery> luke-jr: most people have stopped responding to your outlandish claims because there's almost no point. There's no evidence that your proposal has "community support"
346 2021-04-08T19:18:57  <jeremyrubin> it was about harding's proposal https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-March/018583.html
347 2021-04-08T19:19:05  <luke-jr> jnewbery: far more evidence than this MTP nonsense
348 2021-04-08T19:19:34  <jeremyrubin> which says: " The idea can be implemented on top of either Bitcoin Core's existing BIP9 code or its proposed BIP8 patchset.[6]"
349 2021-04-08T19:19:39  <jnewbery> you've had plenty of opportunity to make your case already. What exactly do you hope to achieve in this meeting by restating things you've claimed many times before in many previous meetings?
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352 2021-04-08T19:21:40  <jeremyrubin> I'd also invite those unfamiliar to review a different community's operating procedure https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7282
353 2021-04-08T19:22:04  <achow101> there have been a few people who pop in and nack 21377, however those nacks are always unsubstantiated and no response is provided upon asking for the motivation behind those nacks
354 2021-04-08T19:22:40  <luke-jr> the problems with MTP are well-known and shouldn't need ot be repeated constantly
355 2021-04-08T19:23:02  <jeremyrubin> I think aj and achow101 adressed them in a very elegent manner
356 2021-04-08T19:23:19  <jeremyrubin> so i do not beleive any of the past issues are unaddressed
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358 2021-04-08T19:23:42  <jeremyrubin> if you would like to contest the solutions as they are, you should review the current proposed changes and comment on that
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360 2021-04-08T19:25:29  <luke-jr> hack after hack is not addressing issues. nor does it justify disregarding community consensus.
361 2021-04-08T19:25:33  <achow101> luke-jr: you should repeat them in the context of this proposal specifically. Many contributors/reviewers may not be aware of them because either they occurred in a venue that they were not aware of, or they occurred at a time where they were not active participants in development.
362 2021-04-08T19:26:15  <achow101> if they have already been stated in the context of the proposal being reviewed, then please link them
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364 2021-04-08T19:26:29  <jeremyrubin> further, there does seem to be a substantial body of agreeing devs on the approach put forward in 21377. so there can hardly be said to be consensus for any other approach either
365 2021-04-08T19:26:30  <jnewbery> luke-jr: there is no evidence that your proposal has "community consensus"
366 2021-04-08T19:27:10  <luke-jr> jnewbery: that is not true
367 2021-04-08T19:27:38  <achow101> asserting it does not make it true or false
368 2021-04-08T19:29:14  <jnewbery> luke-jr: I'll ask again: what is your aim for this meeting item? You've had a chance to raise your objections.
369 2021-04-08T19:29:22  <achow101> "What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."
370 2021-04-08T19:29:36  <luke-jr> anyone involved in the community knows there is consensus around BIP8.
371 2021-04-08T19:29:51  <jeremyrubin> I don't have anything else to add on this matter; I think it should be relatively clear what sort of communications would be required to raise a tangible objection to 21377.
372 2021-04-08T19:30:19  <aj> wumpus: (thanks for adding 21377 to hi pri)
373 2021-04-08T19:30:46  <jeremyrubin> #proposedmeetingtopic meeting notes & timelines implied
374 2021-04-08T19:31:50  <luke-jr> wumpus: reminder to add #19573 too
375 2021-04-08T19:31:50  <wumpus> #topic Meeting notes & timelines implied (jeremyrubin)
376 2021-04-08T19:31:50  <core-meetingbot> topic: Meeting notes & timelines implied (jeremyrubin)
377 2021-04-08T19:31:52  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19573 | Replace unused BIP 9 logic with draft BIP 8 by luke-jr · Pull Request #19573 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
378 2021-04-08T19:32:58  <wumpus> luke-jr: ok added
379 2021-04-08T19:33:09  <wumpus> jeremyrubin: or was that a topic fo rnext week?
380 2021-04-08T19:34:35  <wumpus> #endmeeting
381 2021-04-08T19:34:35  <core-meetingbot> topic: Bitcoin Core development discussion and commit log | Feel free to watch, but please take commentary and usage questions to #bitcoin | Channel logs: http://www.erisian.com.au/bitcoin-core-dev/, http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/ | Meeting topics http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedmeetingtopics.txt / http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedwalletmeetingtopics.txt
382 2021-04-08T19:34:35  <core-meetingbot> Meeting ended Thu Apr  8 19:34:35 2021 UTC.
383 2021-04-08T19:34:35  <core-meetingbot> Minutes:        https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings/logs/bitcoin-core-dev/2021/bitcoin-core-dev.2021-04-08-19.01.moin.txt
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386 2021-04-08T19:36:10  <jnewbery> thanks wumpus!
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389 2021-04-08T19:38:47  <jeremyrubin> Hi
390 2021-04-08T19:38:55  <jeremyrubin> not sure if my previous messages made it through
391 2021-04-08T19:39:12  <jeremyrubin> i got booted right after proposing a meeting topic and was unable to rejoin/reauth
392 2021-04-08T19:39:14  <aj> nothing after your meeting topic made it through, so wumpus ended the meeting
393 2021-04-08T19:39:29  <jeremyrubin> wumpus: it was intended to be for today
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395 2021-04-08T19:39:45  <jeremyrubin> aj: do you think it needs to be discussed today?
396 2021-04-08T19:40:06  <jeremyrubin> or is next week sufficient?
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398 2021-04-08T19:40:46  <aj> jeremyrubin: could just ask outside of the meeting? waiting 'til next week probably answers the question on its own though...
399 2021-04-08T19:42:45  <jeremyrubin> I think more or less -- for those who are still reading -- the point is that the rough timeline from the 1st meeting still seems viable, so short of something unexpected that's probably what people are working towards
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401 2021-04-08T19:44:51  <jnewbery> jeremyrubin: what is that timeline?
402 2021-04-08T19:44:56  <jeremyrubin> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-March/018715.html rough timeline is here
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404 2021-04-08T19:45:37  <jeremyrubin> starttime is relatively flexible, as with endtime (nothing wrong with capturing signals earlier because min active height)
405 2021-04-08T19:46:15  <jnewbery> thanks!
406 2021-04-08T19:46:44  <jeremyrubin> the activation height should just be something around 707616, but the exact value doesn't matter that much
407 2021-04-08T19:48:56  <jeremyrubin> (well, it does matter, we can pick whatever n*2016 looks like it will be near mid novemeber)
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441 2021-04-08T21:20:41  *** bitcoin-git <bitcoin-git!~bitcoin-g@x0f.org> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
442 2021-04-08T21:20:42  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 5 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/6664211be2b6...0c9597ce7db2
443 2021-04-08T21:20:42  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 84912d4 Carl Dong: build: Remove spaces from variable-printing rules
444 2021-04-08T21:20:43  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 44f6d4f Carl Dong: guix: Record precious directories and add guix-clean
445 2021-04-08T21:20:45  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 8f8b96f Carl Dong: guix: Update hint messages to mention guix-clean
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448 2021-04-08T21:21:01  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #21304: guix: Add guix-clean script + establish gc-root for container profiles (master...2021-02-guix-clean-script) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21304
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453 2021-04-08T21:33:56  <jeremyrubin> does testmempoolaccept handle the case of [A -> B, B->C, C->D] etc?
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455 2021-04-08T21:34:33  <jeremyrubin> or is each considered independently
456 2021-04-08T21:34:37  <glozow> jeremyrubin: what do you mean?
457 2021-04-08T21:34:41  <jeremyrubin> (Not packages)
458 2021-04-08T21:34:42  <glozow> are A, B, C, and D transactions?
459 2021-04-08T21:34:47  <jeremyrubin> outputs
460 2021-04-08T21:35:02  <jeremyrubin> like assuming A->B is testmempool accept = true
461 2021-04-08T21:35:10  <glozow> what does A->B mean?
462 2021-04-08T21:35:12  <jeremyrubin> can B->C be true?
463 2021-04-08T21:35:18  <jeremyrubin> Some output A creates some output B
464 2021-04-08T21:35:38  <jeremyrubin> can there be dependencies between the txs in the array
465 2021-04-08T21:35:42  <glozow> yes
466 2021-04-08T21:35:45  <glozow> with #20833 i mean
467 2021-04-08T21:35:53  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/20833 | rpc/validation: enable packages through testmempoolaccept by glozow · Pull Request #20833 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
468 2021-04-08T21:36:01  <jeremyrubin> packages is a different thing
469 2021-04-08T21:36:02  <glozow> on master you can only submit 1 at a time
470 2021-04-08T21:36:05  <jeremyrubin> that's considering CPFP
471 2021-04-08T21:36:33  <jeremyrubin> 1. rawtxs          (json array, required) An array of hex strings of raw transactions.
472 2021-04-08T21:36:51  <glozow> rawtxs can only have 1 tx on master
473 2021-04-08T21:37:15  <jeremyrubin> ahh ok                    "Length must be one for now."
474 2021-04-08T21:37:25  <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: how is this distinct from packages?
475 2021-04-08T21:37:37  <jeremyrubin> packages is a superset of this
476 2021-04-08T21:37:50  <luke-jr> ?
477 2021-04-08T21:37:54  <jeremyrubin> I'm not interested in applying CPFP logic
478 2021-04-08T21:38:12  <glozow> do you define packages as just an array of transactions?
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480 2021-04-08T21:38:29  <luke-jr> does 20833 do CPFP?
481 2021-04-08T21:38:38  <sipa> cpfp is a transaction selection policy
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483 2021-04-08T21:38:46  <luke-jr> "the expectation is that the results returned from testmempoolaccept are identical to what you'd get from test-then-submitting each transaction individually, in that order"
484 2021-04-08T21:38:47  <sipa> that's independent from menpool acxwptance policies
485 2021-04-08T21:38:55  <luke-jr> 20833's description suggests it doesn't do CPFP logic
486 2021-04-08T21:39:12  <glozow> CPFP happens after mempool submission
487 2021-04-08T21:39:19  <jeremyrubin> testmempoolaccept can fail due to insufficient fee tho correct?
488 2021-04-08T21:39:21  <sipa> cpfp doesn't apply to mempool accwptance
489 2021-04-08T21:39:28  <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: yes
490 2021-04-08T21:39:35  <sipa> jeremyrubin: tgat's where packages come in
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492 2021-04-08T21:39:50  <jeremyrubin> that's my point
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494 2021-04-08T21:40:04  <glozow> yes, but it's a small addition to make `testmempoolaccept` use the descendant feerate instead of base feerate
495 2021-04-08T21:40:05  <luke-jr> …
496 2021-04-08T21:40:28  <sipa> jeremyrubin: so i have no idea what you're asking about
497 2021-04-08T21:40:45  <jeremyrubin> testmempoolaccept does check fees
498 2021-04-08T21:40:50  <sipa> yes
499 2021-04-08T21:40:51  <glozow> yes, obviously
500 2021-04-08T21:40:58  <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: for each tx, individually
501 2021-04-08T21:41:06  <sipa> for now
502 2021-04-08T21:41:14  <jeremyrubin> well only one tx is allowed for now anyways
503 2021-04-08T21:41:15  <glozow> testmempoolaccept only takes 1 transaction right now.
504 2021-04-08T21:41:17  <luke-jr> sipa: if it does anything different later, it should be optional IMO
505 2021-04-08T21:41:26  <glozow> are we talking about behavior or master or?
506 2021-04-08T21:41:28  <jeremyrubin> so if I have A -> B paying 10000 feerate, i'm not worried about if it can go in or not
507 2021-04-08T21:41:34  <jeremyrubin> based on fees
508 2021-04-08T21:41:38  <luke-jr> I imagine the use case is, you want to submit A now, B later
509 2021-04-08T21:41:44  <jeremyrubin> but I still want to test if B -> C is valid
510 2021-04-08T21:41:45  <luke-jr> and not wait for B, for A to get confirmed
511 2021-04-08T21:41:52  <glozow> yes
512 2021-04-08T21:42:32  <jeremyrubin> so I'm trying to figure out how I can test the validity of a child transaction from a parent I don't want in the mempool
513 2021-04-08T21:42:39  <jeremyrubin> i just want to test it
514 2021-04-08T21:42:40  <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: using that PR
515 2021-04-08T21:42:44  <glozow> then use 20833
516 2021-04-08T21:42:56  <jeremyrubin> Ok, but there's no current way to do this?
517 2021-04-08T21:42:58  <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: if you need to bypass fee checks, use Knots
518 2021-04-08T21:43:03  <glozow> no, there isn't
519 2021-04-08T21:43:07  <jeremyrubin> no the fees aren't important
520 2021-04-08T21:43:12  <glozow> except to disconnect your node
521 2021-04-08T21:43:18  <jeremyrubin> I'm asking about the dependency graph
522 2021-04-08T21:43:21  <luke-jr> actually, I didn't get 20833 in Knots yet :/
523 2021-04-08T21:43:27  <jeremyrubin> glozow: that's probably the best bet for now
524 2021-04-08T21:43:30  <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: then 20833 is enough…?
525 2021-04-08T21:43:38  <glozow> 20833 works with dependencies
526 2021-04-08T21:43:57  <jeremyrubin> 20833 would do it, I was just asking if there's something that works today that doesn't cover CPFP
527 2021-04-08T21:44:02  <luke-jr> aha
528 2021-04-08T21:44:10  <luke-jr> but 20833 does work today ;)
529 2021-04-08T21:44:20  <glozow> :D
530 2021-04-08T21:44:27  <glozow> needs review
531 2021-04-08T21:44:34  <jeremyrubin> I'll take a look
532 2021-04-08T21:44:44  <glozow> thanks!
533 2021-04-08T21:44:46  <jeremyrubin> I understood 20833 to be focused on the CPFP issue
534 2021-04-08T21:44:56  <jeremyrubin> but it's clear it's even more important now :)
535 2021-04-08T21:45:41  <glozow> 🙏
536 2021-04-08T21:46:00  <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: 20833 is explicitly not CPFP related
537 2021-04-08T21:46:50  <jeremyrubin> does it apply CPFP rules?
538 2021-04-08T21:47:07  <glozow> CPFP rules are applied during block template building
539 2021-04-08T21:47:25  <glozow> i guess the answer to your question is no
540 2021-04-08T21:47:35  <glozow> *not yet
541 2021-04-08T21:48:04  <jeremyrubin> Ok, so the testmempoolaccept 20833 will fail if tx 0 of a chain pays low fee?
542 2021-04-08T21:48:51  <glozow> yes, if the base feerate is too low, it will fail
543 2021-04-08T21:48:51  <glozow> the fix for that is to just use descendant feerate instead, which I'm saving for a followup to 20833
544 2021-04-08T21:49:01  <jeremyrubin> great, that answers my q
545 2021-04-08T21:49:12  <glozow> cool!
546 2021-04-08T21:49:38  <jeremyrubin> FWIW i think the way I define packages is cuts through the transaction graph which can be mined within a block
547 2021-04-08T21:50:18  <jeremyrubin> so an array of txns is not a package nesc because there are arrays of txns which can't mine within a block (relative time locks, too many MB, etc)
548 2021-04-08T21:50:34  <glozow> so if there are conflicts -> not a package?
549 2021-04-08T21:50:46  <jeremyrubin> example?
550 2021-04-08T21:50:53  <jeremyrubin> like [A -> B, A->C]?
551 2021-04-08T21:50:56  <glozow> [A->B, A->C]
552 2021-04-08T21:50:58  <glozow> yeah
553 2021-04-08T21:51:05  <jeremyrubin> yeah I don't consider that a package?
554 2021-04-08T21:51:11  <glozow> mm
555 2021-04-08T21:51:17  <glozow> what about [B->C, A->B] ?
556 2021-04-08T21:51:34  <jeremyrubin> well I think that depends on what your brackets mean
557 2021-04-08T21:51:44  <glozow> i.e., does order matter?
558 2021-04-08T21:52:17  <jeremyrubin> I think it would be wise to make sure that core only ever outputs packages in increasing ancestor order
559 2021-04-08T21:52:26  <jeremyrubin> but that we should accept them in any order
560 2021-04-08T21:52:44  <jeremyrubin> in particular, when mining you generate them in reverse order
561 2021-04-08T21:53:00  <luke-jr> huh?
562 2021-04-08T21:53:03  <Murch> hum?
563 2021-04-08T21:53:05  <glozow> ?
564 2021-04-08T21:53:17  <jeremyrubin> When you're mining you pick the thing with the best feerate and then take all the ancestors
565 2021-04-08T21:53:22  <Murch> Nope
566 2021-04-08T21:53:29  <jeremyrubin> and then later you sort them into ancestor order
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568 2021-04-08T21:53:33  <Murch> Transactions must be sorted in topological order
569 2021-04-08T21:53:34  <glozow> you pick by ancestor feerate, and you mine the ancestors first
570 2021-04-08T21:53:45  <jeremyrubin> yeah you sort them after
571 2021-04-08T21:54:02  <jeremyrubin> but the packages are visited reverse order
572 2021-04-08T21:54:04  <Murch> You pick whole ancestor packages
573 2021-04-08T21:54:32  <glozow> is that necessarily true? you could have parent with higher ancestor feerate than child, and you'd pick the parent first
574 2021-04-08T21:54:54  <jeremyrubin> it is true -- you won't pick the child till later then
575 2021-04-08T21:54:58  <Murch> Yeah, but then the parent would have a higher ancestor feerate and take precendence by itself anyway
576 2021-04-08T21:56:45  <jeremyrubin> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/0c9597ce7db28f5272a69bf0fbb36ce6b2520566/src/miner.cpp#L404
577 2021-04-08T21:58:50  <jeremyrubin> anyways it's not super important, once they're in the block they're in consensus order
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579 2021-04-08T21:59:25  <Murch> It groups each transaction with all of the transactions it depends on
580 2021-04-08T21:59:48  <Murch> Then it picks the best of these ancestor packages per ancestorfeerate (i.e. the effective feerate of the whole package)
581 2021-04-08T21:59:52  <Murch> then updates the mempool
582 2021-04-08T22:01:34  <jeremyrubin> I don't see that in the code?
583 2021-04-08T22:01:38  <jeremyrubin> Can you point me to a line
584 2021-04-08T22:01:40  <jeremyrubin> What i see is:
585 2021-04-08T22:01:50  <jeremyrubin> pick by ancestor score
586 2021-04-08T22:02:18  <jeremyrubin> make sure the package fits
587 2021-04-08T22:02:22  <Murch> Yeah, but transactions without ancestors are an ancestorpackage by themselves
588 2021-04-08T22:02:42  <jeremyrubin> compute all the ancestors
589 2021-04-08T22:02:59  <jeremyrubin> add them to the block in block sort order
590 2021-04-08T22:03:08  <Murch> yes?
591 2021-04-08T22:03:23  <Murch> But the "ancestorscore" is the effective feerate of a transaction with its ancestors
592 2021-04-08T22:03:55  <glozow> before block assembly starts, the txns already know their ancestor fees and size. you just call `CalculateMempoolAncestors` to grab the mempool entries
593 2021-04-08T22:04:30  <jeremyrubin> Yes, and the order those are visited in shows up in a reversed order
594 2021-04-08T22:04:55  <jeremyrubin> this is relevent because the epoch memepool patches will literall put them in order of [B -> C, A->B]
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596 2021-04-08T22:05:42  <jeremyrubin> So gloria's question is, is [B->C, A->B] still a package, or must it be [A->B, B->C]
597 2021-04-08T22:05:57  <jeremyrubin> my answer is diff algorithms will generate a package set in different orders
598 2021-04-08T22:06:08  <jeremyrubin> so we should recognize any order they show up in
599 2021-04-08T22:06:18  <glozow> i mean a package communicated between peers
600 2021-04-08T22:06:21  <jeremyrubin> but that we should also be careful to pick a single order if we ever e.g. print them out
601 2021-04-08T22:06:38  <glozow> that's what we'd be interested in formalizing the definition for
602 2021-04-08T22:07:05  <jeremyrubin> it's a good question, there's a DoS argument for picking a defined order because it's O(n log n) to sort self-side v.s. O(n) to verify
603 2021-04-08T22:07:22  <glozow> what's n?
604 2021-04-08T22:07:30  <Murch> Number of txs?
605 2021-04-08T22:07:33  <jeremyrubin> I think n is the number of inputs
606 2021-04-08T22:08:03  <jeremyrubin> but maybe it's just # of txs, would need to draw out the actual dependency calculating algorithm
607 2021-04-08T22:09:09  <glozow> no, it'd depend on number of inputs
608 2021-04-08T22:09:32  <jeremyrubin> there's also a good question of if we should have a canonical ordering that a package must be in, more so than block order
609 2021-04-08T22:09:39  <jeremyrubin> since blocks are not canonically ordered
610 2021-04-08T22:10:22  <Murch> Do you mean topologically ordered but with canonical order when there is multiple possibilities?
611 2021-04-08T22:10:35  <jeremyrubin> correct
612 2021-04-08T22:10:46  <jeremyrubin> e.g., input/vout order
613 2021-04-08T22:10:48  <glozow> it would matter if you had package IDs
614 2021-04-08T22:11:05  <jeremyrubin> glozow: good point, should prolly make a canonical ordering then :)
615 2021-04-08T22:11:09  <jeremyrubin> glozow: I'd say figure out if there's any algorithmic advantage for having the txns in a specific order on the receiving side
616 2021-04-08T22:11:33  <glozow> i'd say require them to be ordered
617 2021-04-08T22:11:40  <glozow> it's pretty easy to figure out if a package is ordered correctly
618 2021-04-08T22:11:44  <Murch> Well, topological order would be nice, not sure whether it's worthwhile to further restrain it
619 2021-04-08T22:11:49  <glozow> should be the sender's burden to sort them
620 2021-04-08T22:11:53  <jeremyrubin> Murch: package IDs
621 2021-04-08T22:12:06  <jeremyrubin> if you want them to be hashable you need a canonical order
622 2021-04-08T22:12:23  <glozow> e.g. topological order (by # of ancestors within package), lexicographic by txid to break ties
623 2021-04-08T22:12:29  <jeremyrubin> but glozow in theory it's not that bad, a dirty client can always send you crap
624 2021-04-08T22:12:39  <glozow> if they send you crap, just reject it
625 2021-04-08T22:12:49  <glozow> the package - maybe not the txs within it
626 2021-04-08T22:13:12  <Murch> Why would we need package ids?
627 2021-04-08T22:13:15  <jeremyrubin> Anyways that seems like an OK plan, maybe lexicographic by wtxid tho
628 2021-04-08T22:13:34  <glozow> to announce packages/getdata
629 2021-04-08T22:13:48  <Murch> mh
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631 2021-04-08T22:14:58  <Murch> Doesn't that mean that you could send a peer the same txs a bunch of times by generating each valid subset and announcing it as a separate package?
632 2021-04-08T22:15:28  <jeremyrubin> Murch: correct, but you can ban peers which send you packages containing crap you already have I suppose?
633 2021-04-08T22:15:34  <glozow> yeah
634 2021-04-08T22:15:41  <jeremyrubin> You can also generate the subsets yourself and add their IDs to your bloom filter
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636 2021-04-08T22:15:52  <jeremyrubin> altho idk if that's worth doing at all
637 2021-04-08T22:15:54  <Murch> not if they send them from smal lto large
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639 2021-04-08T22:16:10  <Murch> I'd say, only allow connected graphs to be sent as packages
640 2021-04-08T22:16:24  <jeremyrubin> I think that's already a contstraint
641 2021-04-08T22:16:38  <jeremyrubin> glozow: did you ever get the notes suhas and I put together last year about this stuff?
642 2021-04-08T22:16:47  <Murch> AFAIU, that restraint has been losened?
643 2021-04-08T22:16:57  <glozow> peers can already send you crap, so it's more about limiting how much time you spend looking at crap i think
644 2021-04-08T22:17:10  <Murch> mh, good point
645 2021-04-08T22:17:24  <jeremyrubin> glozow: I think it's important that packages as a concept are connected components
646 2021-04-08T22:17:25  <glozow> jeremyrubin: which notes? I've seen a couple of his gists
647 2021-04-08T22:17:34  <jeremyrubin> we can have metapackages that can be split into packages
648 2021-04-08T22:17:36  <Murch> But at least they'd only send you announcements once so far and then wouldn't make you download the same transactions again and again?
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650 2021-04-08T22:18:12  <jeremyrubin> but the notion of a package as a component is useful, and peers sneaking in unrelated crap to the component should be bannable IMO
651 2021-04-08T22:19:03  <jeremyrubin> glozow: I'll try to find the notes
652 2021-04-08T22:19:49  <glozow> i think the protocol for correctly-behaving senders would be to build packages as necessary
653 2021-04-08T22:19:49  <glozow> and the receiver can try their best to distinguish between, e.g. an extra tx you already knew about and punishable garbage
654 2021-04-08T22:20:14  <glozow> e.g. sender creates a package based on `filterinventoryknown` of their peers
655 2021-04-08T22:20:28  <glozow> er, what's it called? the bloom filter for invs you've heard from the peer
656 2021-04-08T22:21:43  <jeremyrubin> glozow: FWIW, make a hashtable with all txids ( O(n) ), scan all txns inputs against it (O(n)), count txns with all inputs not found
657 2021-04-08T22:21:56  <jeremyrubin> I think that algorithm is O(n) and guarantees a single component
658 2021-04-08T22:22:02  <jeremyrubin> no matter what order things are in
659 2021-04-08T22:22:45  <Murch> I think that would still allow conflicting txs i.e. A and A' that both spend the same input?
660 2021-04-08T22:24:12  <jeremyrubin> yep, that's still a component. conflict check can also be done either as a later part of validation or with a similar algorithm
661 2021-04-08T22:24:55  <Murch> Right, would still be connected, but not a valid package
662 2021-04-08T22:24:57  <glozow> you're doing this with transactions in your mempool you're relaying to peers right?
663 2021-04-08T22:25:28  <jeremyrubin> a while ago i did some O(n) algorithm for this during block validation... but it was unpopular
664 2021-04-08T22:25:45  <jeremyrubin> it turns out we do all the connection logic in blocks while hitting the utxo caches
665 2021-04-08T22:25:57  <jeremyrubin> but you can context-free validate block tx connectivity
666 2021-04-08T22:26:40  <glozow> sure. why do you want to do that? check tx connectivity before you start looking at scripts?
667 2021-04-08T22:26:48  <jeremyrubin> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/14837
668 2021-04-08T22:26:57  <jeremyrubin> it would let you parallelize better
669 2021-04-08T22:27:31  <jeremyrubin> https://github.com/JeremyRubin/bitcoin/blob/0425c6409000aeb3270ba8f9c30d2746c5c5b784/src/validation.cpp#L3078-L3086
670 2021-04-08T22:28:46  <glozow> you wouldn't even get to this part until after u verify the pow
671 2021-04-08T22:29:47  <glozow> why would someone put duplicate inputs + do the pow just for you to verify a tiny bit slower?
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674 2021-04-08T22:33:13  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 opened pull request #21640: [0.21] Introduce DeferredSignatureChecker and have SignatureExtractorClass subclass it (0.21...0.21-sig-ext) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21640
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676 2021-04-08T22:33:47  <jeremyrubin> Ah it's not just that, there are other things you can do when you check all these properties at once
677 2021-04-08T22:34:31  <jeremyrubin> i can try to find the experimental branch if you're curious, but don't spend too much time since it seems like a dead end
678 2021-04-08T22:35:59  <jeremyrubin> When you're doing https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/0c9597ce7db28f5272a69bf0fbb36ce6b2520566/src/validation.cpp#L2127
679 2021-04-08T22:36:14  <jeremyrubin> you have to process txns in block order, so it's serial O(n)
680 2021-04-08T22:36:35  <jeremyrubin> but if you do a small amount of pre-work (which is also O(n), but small c)
681 2021-04-08T22:37:20  <jeremyrubin> then you can do the rest of the tx validation in parallel because you're not relying on the UpdateCoins calls being serial
682 2021-04-08T22:37:55  <jeremyrubin> not a big deal, but the old PR might be interesting to you for 'algorithms to check properties of groups of txns'
683 2021-04-08T22:38:47  <glozow> yeah it's interesting, thanks for sharing
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