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 11 2021-04-14T01:15:13  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #21672: doc: remove boostrap info from GUIX_COMMON_FLAGS doc (master...fixup_guix_options) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21672
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 24 2021-04-14T02:09:16  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 8 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/a1f0b8b62eb8...e7af2f35af95
 25 2021-04-14T02:09:17  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 54569cc fanquake: refactor: move all signer code inside ENABLE_EXTERNAL_SIGNER #ifdefs
 26 2021-04-14T02:09:17  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master f4652bf fanquake: refactor: add missing includes to external signer code
 27 2021-04-14T02:09:18  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 8fdbb89 fanquake: refactor: unify external wallet runtime errors
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 30 2021-04-14T02:09:46  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #21666: Miscellaneous external signer changes (master...external_signer_followups) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21666
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 88 2021-04-14T06:33:08  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #21675: ci: Only cache depends/sdk-sources for macos task in cirrus (master...2104-ciSdkMacosOnly) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21675
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117 2021-04-14T07:23:15  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/e7af2f35af95...b8e5bbdf93e5
118 2021-04-14T07:23:15  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fadbd99 MarcoFalke: test: Remove spurious double lock tsan suppressions by bumping to clang-12
119 2021-04-14T07:23:16  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fadea0b MarcoFalke: Revert "test: Add tsan supp for leveldb::DBImpl::DeleteObsoleteFiles"
120 2021-04-14T07:23:17  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master b8e5bbd MarcoFalke: Merge #21669: test: Remove spurious double lock tsan suppressions by bumpi...
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123 2021-04-14T07:23:34  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #21669: test: Remove spurious double lock tsan suppressions by bumping to clang-12 (master...2104-tsanSupp) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21669
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129 2021-04-14T07:32:14  *** GarouDan <GarouDan!~GarouDan@191.242.119.219.fibra.plimtelecom.com.br> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
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133 2021-04-14T07:41:54  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] vasild closed pull request #21668: net: properly handle PF_NOBAN in CConnman::Bind() (master...fix_pf_noban_usage) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21668
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136 2021-04-14T07:47:34  <wumpus> jeremyrubin: i don't know i hope no one owns it and it's not governed" tbh
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145 2021-04-14T08:08:37  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #21676: test: Use mocktime to avoid intermittent failure in rpc_tests (master...2104-testFixMocktime) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21676
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154 2021-04-14T09:00:10  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] practicalswift opened pull request #21677: fuzz: Avoid use of low file descriptor ids (which may be in use) in FuzzedSock (master...avoid-open-fds-when-fuzzing) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21677
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169 2021-04-14T10:29:51  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #21678: test: Fix TSan suppression (master...210414-deadlock) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21678
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189 2021-04-14T12:18:02  <bitcoin-git> [gui] laanwj merged pull request #260: Handle exceptions instead of crash (master...210326-ex) https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gui/pull/260
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192 2021-04-14T12:18:23  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 8 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/b8e5bbdf93e5...03ecceedf6f1
193 2021-04-14T12:18:24  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master af7e365 Hennadii Stepanov: qt: Make PACKAGE_BUGREPORT link clickable
194 2021-04-14T12:18:24  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 64a8755 Hennadii Stepanov: qt: Add BitcoinApplication::handleNonFatalException function
195 2021-04-14T12:18:25  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master f7e260a Hennadii Stepanov: qt: Add GUIUtil::ExceptionSafeConnect function
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198 2021-04-14T12:38:58  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jnewbery closed pull request #21533: mining: Remove unused extranonce logic (master...2021-03-extra-nonce) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21533
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204 2021-04-14T13:14:06  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/03ecceedf6f1...a12962ca8940
205 2021-04-14T13:14:06  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa73ce6 MarcoFalke: Fix assumeutxo crash due to truncated file
206 2021-04-14T13:14:07  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master a12962c MarcoFalke: Merge #21585: Fix assumeutxo crash due to truncated file
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209 2021-04-14T13:14:26  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #21585: Fix assumeutxo crash due to truncated file (master...2104-assumeutxoCrash03) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21585
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220 2021-04-14T13:45:48  <prayank> harding: Request you to review this PR: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21157
221 2021-04-14T13:45:56  <prayank> TL;DR - 1 commit. No code. Tor docs. Reviewed by 8 or more people in last 2 months.
222 2021-04-14T13:46:05  <prayank> A. Highlight DNS requests part B. Add 1 example in the end C. Add 4 Privacy recommendations D. Mention about `onlynet=i2p`
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226 2021-04-14T13:57:03  <jeremyrubin> wumpus: that's not how trademarks law works
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229 2021-04-14T14:09:29  <wumpus> prayank: i'll take a look as well, good to see nyx (the tor node monitor) is still a thing
230 2021-04-14T14:10:02  *** bitcoin-git <bitcoin-git!~bitcoin-g@x0f.org> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
231 2021-04-14T14:10:03  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] promag opened pull request #21679: rpc: Keep default argument value in correct type (master...2021-04-rpc-defaults) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21679
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234 2021-04-14T14:12:16  <prayank> wumpus: Thanks
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237 2021-04-14T14:16:18  <Kiminuo> Hi, I'm working on https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21422. Would you mind saying "concept ACK" if you find it useful?
238 2021-04-14T14:19:02  *** bitcoin-git <bitcoin-git!~bitcoin-g@x0f.org> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
239 2021-04-14T14:19:03  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #21680: test: Use called_from_lib to point uninstrumented libs to TSan (master...210414-tsan) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21680
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244 2021-04-14T14:32:52  <wumpus> #21422
245 2021-04-14T14:32:55  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21422 | Add feerate histogram to getmempoolinfo by kiminuo · Pull Request #21422 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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252 2021-04-14T14:40:17  *** _Sam-- <_Sam--!~muffler@unaffiliated/iamthemusicman> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
253 2021-04-14T14:41:00  <_Sam--> Hi I just wanted to say thank you for doing all that work to make bitcoin.  I appreciate you.  I sit around and don't do anything, and make money just because of the work you did.   Thanks dudes/girls.  Have a nice day.
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255 2021-04-14T14:41:17  <wumpus> thank you!
256 2021-04-14T14:43:21  <Kiminuo> :D
257 2021-04-14T14:45:43  *** bitcoin-git <bitcoin-git!~bitcoin-g@x0f.org> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
258 2021-04-14T14:45:43  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/a12962ca8940...8c867ed4ec6c
259 2021-04-14T14:45:43  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 11115c8 MarcoFalke: ci: Only cache depends/sdk-sources for macos/apk task in cirrus
260 2021-04-14T14:45:44  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 8c867ed MarcoFalke: Merge #21675: ci: Only cache depends/sdk-sources for macos/apk task in cir...
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263 2021-04-14T14:46:03  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #21675: ci: Only cache depends/sdk-sources for macos/apk task in cirrus (master...2104-ciSdkMacosOnly) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21675
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269 2021-04-14T14:53:44  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/8c867ed4ec6c...773f8c1a7d56
270 2021-04-14T14:53:44  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master f2ef5a8 Hennadii Stepanov: test: Fix TSan suppression
271 2021-04-14T14:53:45  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 773f8c1 MarcoFalke: Merge #21678: test: Fix TestPotentialDeadLockDetected suppression
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274 2021-04-14T14:54:03  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #21678: test: Fix TestPotentialDeadLockDetected suppression (master...210414-deadlock) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21678
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279 2021-04-14T15:17:16  <achow101> #21377 rtm? Has 9 ACKs
280 2021-04-14T15:17:20  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21377 | Speedy trial support for versionbits by ajtowns · Pull Request #21377 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
281 2021-04-14T15:20:27  <wumpus> i hope so it would be good to do the speedy trial thing, speedy i guess
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307 2021-04-14T17:06:14  <bitcoin-git> [gui] jarolrod opened pull request #281: qt: set shortcuts for console's resize buttons (master...mul-shortcuts-resize) https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gui/pull/281
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309 2021-04-14T17:07:06  <luke-jr> achow101: NACK
310 2021-04-14T17:08:52  <luke-jr> Developers do not get to strong-arm protocol changes any more than miners do.
311 2021-04-14T17:09:12  <luke-jr> stop with this NYA attempt
312 2021-04-14T17:10:56  <sipa> as far as i can see based on comments on the bip change and implementation, there seems pretty wide community consensus
313 2021-04-14T17:11:27  <sipa> i haven't followed all discussions everywhere of course
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315 2021-04-14T17:11:57  <sipa> but you can't just say "no community consensus" while only showing evidence of yourself disagreeing
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317 2021-04-14T17:13:58  <jamesob> fwiw I'm an unreported concept ACK on #21377 and am in the process of reviewing the code
318 2021-04-14T17:14:01  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21377 | Speedy trial support for versionbits by ajtowns · Pull Request #21377 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
319 2021-04-14T17:14:05  <jeremyrubin> I also have asked previously for a definition of terms https://gist.github.com/michaelfolkson/92899f27f1ab30aa2ebee82314f8fe7f#gistcomment-3701878 to elucidate what luke is saying when he says "X does not have community consensus but Y does"
320 2021-04-14T17:14:30  <jeremyrubin> I'll reiterate here: luke-jr luke-jr can you give a definition for what consensus is? Is there a concrete and consistent definition you are applying that BIP8 LOT=true is satisfying that the current ST MTP start/stop + height of activation minimum is not meeting that can be applied here and in the future?
321 2021-04-14T17:15:35  <luke-jr> sipa: there is wide community consensus around BIP 8
322 2021-04-14T17:15:54  <sipa> where is that community?
323 2021-04-14T17:15:57  <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: stop strawmanning
324 2021-04-14T17:16:00  <luke-jr> sipa: all over the world?
325 2021-04-14T17:17:13  <sipa> this seems like a pointless discussion
326 2021-04-14T17:17:32  <jeremyrubin> I don't think that's a strawman? I've asked you to generalize. If you can't do that then I don't think anyone will listen
327 2021-04-14T17:17:50  <luke-jr> yes, I don't know what there is to discuss. devs simply cannot force changes without communtiy support.
328 2021-04-14T17:18:05  <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: I have never said nor implied LOT=True has consensus
329 2021-04-14T17:18:16  <sipa> well someone makes a proposal, and as far as i can see, there seems agreement about that proposal
330 2021-04-14T17:18:19  <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: and there is zero indication ST/MTP has any kind of consensus
331 2021-04-14T17:18:26  *** cguida <cguida!~Adium@2601:282:200:ae00:3dcc:eebe:8776:8907> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
332 2021-04-14T17:18:28  <luke-jr> sipa: there is agreement on BIP8, yes
333 2021-04-14T17:18:31  <wumpus> if merging anything with regard to taproot activation is 'forcing changes' that only leaves UASF
334 2021-04-14T17:18:38  <luke-jr> sipa: 21377 is opposed to the agreement
335 2021-04-14T17:19:14  <jonatack> jamesob: achow101: same, i'm still reviewing. did a first pass to get the code and bips in my head, need to do another one
336 2021-04-14T17:19:36  <sipa> luke-jr: there are tons of ACKs on the BIP PR, and the implementation; isn't that indication?
337 2021-04-14T17:19:39  <wumpus> it means core can no longer activate softforks by itself but it always needs a third party group to push their own client
338 2021-04-14T17:19:49  <luke-jr> sipa: ACKs are developers
339 2021-04-14T17:20:03  <sipa> luke-jr: yes, that's why i ask about other evidence
340 2021-04-14T17:20:15  <luke-jr> sipa: talk to people?
341 2021-04-14T17:20:22  <wumpus> i am somewhat disappointment that we could not reacha agreement around something everyone seems to want
342 2021-04-14T17:20:25  <sipa> that's not my job
343 2021-04-14T17:20:26  *** cguida <cguida!~Adium@2601:282:200:ae00:3dcc:eebe:8776:8907> has quit IRC (Client Quit)
344 2021-04-14T17:20:32  <wumpus> but that is how it is
345 2021-04-14T17:20:34  <luke-jr> sipa: well, that's how you get evidence
346 2021-04-14T17:20:37  <achow101> The only person who has expressed explicit discontent with 21377 is luke-jr
347 2021-04-14T17:20:46  <jamesob> luke-jr: people who aren't following these PRs probably aren't the ones you'd want opining on activation strategy
348 2021-04-14T17:21:03  <achow101> everyone else I have spoken to (in various meetings and elsewhere) are okay with 21377
349 2021-04-14T17:21:10  <jamesob> if someone takes issue with a particular means of activation, there is nothing stopping them from commenting on 21377
350 2021-04-14T17:21:16  <luke-jr> jamesob: I reject absolutely the premise that developers alone decide protocol changes.
351 2021-04-14T17:21:24  <jamesob> nobody is saying that
352 2021-04-14T17:21:50  <jeremyrubin> you either die a user or live long enough to become a developer
353 2021-04-14T17:21:56  <luke-jr> GitHub and this channel are developer forums
354 2021-04-14T17:21:58  <jamesob> jeremyrubin: lol
355 2021-04-14T17:22:05  <wumpus> luke-jr: that is not the case anyhow, if there is widespread disagreement, they won't install the client version wit hthe softfork activation
356 2021-04-14T17:22:05  <sipa> luke-jr: i don't think that's the case here
357 2021-04-14T17:22:13  <jamesob> luke-jr: forums that are not gated in any way
358 2021-04-14T17:22:24  <luke-jr> jamesob: actually, GitHub is, but let's not go off on that tangent
359 2021-04-14T17:22:35  <luke-jr> wumpus: that doesn't mean it's okay to release such a thing
360 2021-04-14T17:22:58  <wumpus> luke-jr: in any case, you are effectively blocking taproot activation right now
361 2021-04-14T17:23:03  <luke-jr> wumpus: no, I am not
362 2021-04-14T17:23:07  <wumpus> luke-jr: i do not know if that is your intent but you are doing it
363 2021-04-14T17:23:27  <luke-jr> wumpus: I am helping users who are prepared to release something appropriate if Core will not
364 2021-04-14T17:23:31  <michaelfolkson> I personally am very uncomfortable by this precedent
365 2021-04-14T17:23:46  <luke-jr> instead of trying to strong-arm the community to using a flawed activation method
366 2021-04-14T17:24:00  <michaelfolkson> One developer (aj) is preventing block heights from being used consistently
367 2021-04-14T17:24:09  <achow101> luke-jr: you're the one trying to strongarm the community into using your preferred activation method
368 2021-04-14T17:24:15  <jnewbery> michaelfolkson: please stop. That's clearly not the case
369 2021-04-14T17:24:15  <luke-jr> achow101: liar
370 2021-04-14T17:24:17  <jamesob> luke-jr: you are begging the question there; you seem to be the only person around here who thinks the method is flawed
371 2021-04-14T17:24:24  <achow101> this is the billionth time we've had this discussion and it's absolutely pointless
372 2021-04-14T17:24:35  <achow101> there is community consensus for 21377
373 2021-04-14T17:24:37  <michaelfolkson> There is no reason to not use block heights consistently, it is farcical
374 2021-04-14T17:25:06  <michaelfolkson> It will set a precedent for future Core versus alternative client battles over block height and MTP which are totally unnecessary
375 2021-04-14T17:25:13  *** mars <mars!~niamh@aaubervilliers-654-1-61-83.w86-218.abo.wanadoo.fr> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
376 2021-04-14T17:25:13  *** mol <mol!~mol@unaffiliated/molly> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
377 2021-04-14T17:25:23  <jamesob> michaelfolkson: code churn on a consensus-critical part of the system seems like a pretty good reason
378 2021-04-14T17:25:23  <sipa> michaelfolkson: as far as i can see, this is all a storm in a teapot, and my only concern is that there is a single proposal pushed forward to avoid fragmentation
379 2021-04-14T17:25:24  <luke-jr> 21377 would make Core an enemy of Bitcoin
380 2021-04-14T17:25:32  <michaelfolkson> The clear thing to do is ask aj to use block heights consistently
381 2021-04-14T17:25:35  <jeremyrubin> [4/14/21 10:18] <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: I have never said nor implied LOT=True has consensus
382 2021-04-14T17:25:37  <jeremyrubin>  [Tuesday, March 9, 2021] [10:13:51 AM PST] <luke-jr>    RusAlex: no consensus, but LOT=True has sufficient support to move forward
383 2021-04-14T17:25:43  <michaelfolkson> The fact that no one is is just shocking to me
384 2021-04-14T17:26:05  <achow101> michaelfolkson: YOU THINK I DIDN"T ASK?????
385 2021-04-14T17:26:29  <michaelfolkson> Why risk a split network with Core and the alternative client over mix of block height and MTP? Totally nonsense
386 2021-04-14T17:26:36  <jeremyrubin>  [Saturday, March 13, 2021] [4:37:57 PM PST] <luke-jr>   AaronvanW: but IMO we have(had?) basically consensus on everything but LOT, so we should just use that.
387 2021-04-14T17:26:42  <sipa> michaelfolkson: wut?
388 2021-04-14T17:26:52  <sipa> michaelfolkson: this is ridiculous
389 2021-04-14T17:26:57  <achow101> michaelfolkson: why risk a split network by having an alternative client?
390 2021-04-14T17:26:59  <jeremyrubin> I think it's accurate for you to say you haven't implied LOT has consensus, but by your actions you're forcing a release without consensus
391 2021-04-14T17:27:03  <achow101> that's the qusetion for you to ask
392 2021-04-14T17:27:27  <michaelfolkson> sipa: There is an alternative client implementing Speedy Trial (consistent block height) followed by BIP 8 (LOT=true, 1 year)
393 2021-04-14T17:27:42  <sipa> michaelfolkson: where? pushed by whom?
394 2021-04-14T17:27:48  <sipa> who will run it?
395 2021-04-14T17:27:50  <luke-jr> achow101: because Core refuses to do the right thing and merge what has community consensus
396 2021-04-14T17:27:51  <michaelfolkson> sipa: By using this dumb mix of MTP and block height in Core we are risking a split network
397 2021-04-14T17:28:00  <michaelfolkson> It is just ridiculous
398 2021-04-14T17:28:14  <achow101> in any case, assuming blocks are found at the rate that they have been found for the past several years, MTP ST and the alternative client will be in agreement
399 2021-04-14T17:28:23  <jeremyrubin> achow101: +1
400 2021-04-14T17:28:26  <michaelfolkson> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-April/018783.html
401 2021-04-14T17:28:31  <sipa> michaelfolkson: you're the only one claiming that, as far as i can see (again, i have not seen all discussion)
402 2021-04-14T17:29:00  <michaelfolkson> Because one developer (aj) with really weak rationale won't use block heights consistently?
403 2021-04-14T17:29:08  <luke-jr> achow101: I agree, but ST/MTP still lacks community support and seems to outright be spitting on consensus
404 2021-04-14T17:29:28  <achow101> luke-jr: the only one spitting on consensus is you refusing to accept that there is consensus for MTP ST
405 2021-04-14T17:29:33  <luke-jr> achow101: there isn't
406 2021-04-14T17:29:49  <sipa> michaelfolkson: i really don't care about aesthetical concerns; i care about what agreement there is on a path forward
407 2021-04-14T17:29:50  <michaelfolkson> aj has his PR being used, someone please ask him to use block heights consistently to prevent risk of split network
408 2021-04-14T17:29:50  <luke-jr> there are some developers trying to strong-arm it in without community support
409 2021-04-14T17:29:53  <achow101> you keep asserting that but refuse to provide any such evidence
410 2021-04-14T17:30:27  <mol> achow101, +1
411 2021-04-14T17:30:27  <sipa> michaelfolkson: and as far as i can see, you're trying to turn an aesthetical argument as evidence of a risk for splitting
412 2021-04-14T17:30:43  <michaelfolkson> AJ is literally only one opposing consistent use of block height https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21377#issuecomment-818758277
413 2021-04-14T17:31:01  <sipa> michaelfolkson: who cares? there is a proposal that seems people like
414 2021-04-14T17:31:22  <achow101> and he has provided a rationale for it that is not addressed by a block height proposal
415 2021-04-14T17:31:22  <michaelfolkson> Well do you care about the possibility of a split network?
416 2021-04-14T17:31:35  <sipa> michaelfolkson: yes, absolutely, that's the only thing i care about
417 2021-04-14T17:31:51  <luke-jr> sigh
418 2021-04-14T17:32:18  *** bitcoin-git <bitcoin-git!~bitcoin-g@x0f.org> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
419 2021-04-14T17:32:18  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jamesob opened pull request #21681: validation: fix ActivateSnapshot to use hardcoded nChainTx (master...2021-04-au-nchaintx-fix) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21681
420 2021-04-14T17:32:19  *** bitcoin-git <bitcoin-git!~bitcoin-g@x0f.org> has left #bitcoin-core-dev
421 2021-04-14T17:33:00  <michaelfolkson> You have a contributor of 10 years who is probably the biggest expert on activation here, author of BIP 8, involved with UASF and he is NACKing this. Please just consider what you are doing
422 2021-04-14T17:33:02  <achow101> I will restate my earlier statment: 21377 is rtm. It has 9 ACKs, and 1 unmotivated (no reason given) NACK. Said NACK can be ignored as it does not provide a reason
423 2021-04-14T17:33:25  <achow101> a NACK with no reason provided can be ignored as stated in our contributor guidelines
424 2021-04-14T17:33:37  <michaelfolkson> For what? AJ's test networks? Seriously....
425 2021-04-14T17:33:42  <luke-jr> achow101: developer ACKs withotu community agreement isn't enough for protocol changes; and I gave reasons
426 2021-04-14T17:33:49  <luke-jr> (as have many others including yourself!)
427 2021-04-14T17:34:06  *** lightlike <lightlike!~lightlike@p200300c7ef169b008d78383155562f3b.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has left #bitcoin-core-dev
428 2021-04-14T17:34:13  <jeremyrubin> luke-jr can you give a definition for what consensus is? Is there a concrete and consistent definition you are applying that BIP8 LOT=true is satisfying that the current ST MTP start/stop + height of activation minimum is not meeting that can be applied here and in the future?
429 2021-04-14T17:34:21  <michaelfolkson> We are willing to risk a split network over AJ's test networks. I'm staggered
430 2021-04-14T17:34:23  <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: stop spamming
431 2021-04-14T17:34:35  <jeremyrubin> It's a legit question that you've ignored
432 2021-04-14T17:34:37  <sipa> michaelfolkson: i cannot comprehend where this is coming from
433 2021-04-14T17:34:41  <luke-jr> no, it isn't
434 2021-04-14T17:34:43  <jnewbery> michaelfolkson: you've claimed in ##taproot-activation that your goal is for "21377 to be well reviewed and merged". Your actions over the last week have been completely contrary to that stated goal.
435 2021-04-14T17:34:44  <jeremyrubin> Maybe remove BIP8 LOT=true?
436 2021-04-14T17:34:54  <michaelfolkson> sipa: Please read https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-April/018783.html
437 2021-04-14T17:34:56  <jeremyrubin> What is BIP8 LOT=? satisfying
438 2021-04-14T17:35:04  <jamesob> michaelfolkson: can you dial back the hyperbole please?
439 2021-04-14T17:35:06  <achow101> michaelfolkson: you are willing to risk a split network over a MTP vs height for a single paramter. I'm staggered
440 2021-04-14T17:35:36  <sipa> ^
441 2021-04-14T17:35:49  <jeremyrubin> michaelfolkson: i've personally found the thinking patterns in https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/GSQsAReasGjETP3e9/biases-of-intuitive-and-logical-thinkers helpful in development. Perhaps worth reflecting on
442 2021-04-14T17:36:29  <michaelfolkson> Luke has been consistent throughout and he has expertise with activations. If you want to ignore that, go for it
443 2021-04-14T17:37:11  <jeremyrubin> he's consistently failed to answer questions like "what is incompatible with ST" or "what definition of consensus are you using that passes BIP8 and not ST"
444 2021-04-14T17:37:24  <sipa> sorry, this discussion is personally stressing me out too much; my intent isn't to weigh in on activation methods, just to assess to level of support the current proposal has
445 2021-04-14T17:37:25  <michaelfolkson> All these NACKs and coin flips and test networks, I've just been shocked
446 2021-04-14T17:37:29  <jeremyrubin> and you're literally arguing with sipa about expertise with activation
447 2021-04-14T17:37:31  <sipa> i'm going to withdraw again
448 2021-04-14T17:37:34  *** sipa <sipa!~pw@gateway/tor-sasl/sipa1024> has left #bitcoin-core-dev
449 2021-04-14T17:37:52  <jnewbery> michaelfolkson: yes you're shocked. We all understand that you're shocked.
450 2021-04-14T17:38:10  <jnewbery> I'll echo the many people in #taproot-activation who have suggested you step back for a bit.
451 2021-04-14T17:38:13  *** cguida <cguida!~Adium@2601:282:200:ae00:3dcc:eebe:8776:8907> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
452 2021-04-14T17:38:25  <jnewbery> You're no longer helping yourself or anyone else
453 2021-04-14T17:38:39  <michaelfolkson> jnewbery: Everytime I do, everyone just piles on Luke or does dumb coin flips
454 2021-04-14T17:38:41  <luke-jr> "get out of the way so we can strong-arm this in" is what I am hearing
455 2021-04-14T17:38:55  <michaelfolkson> I stayed away for a week and look at all the nonsense that happened
456 2021-04-14T17:39:19  <jnewbery> all the nonsense = actual progress on a compromise proposal and implementation
457 2021-04-14T17:39:24  <mol> michaelfolkson, thank you for staying away for a week and that allowed us to get things done
458 2021-04-14T17:39:34  <michaelfolkson> Just listen to Luke's views occasionally, that's all I ask. You can ignore me
459 2021-04-14T17:39:45  <luke-jr> there's nothing compromise about it anymore; it's purely one-sided, against community majority
460 2021-04-14T17:39:46  <michaelfolkson> mol: Right some great coin flips were done
461 2021-04-14T17:39:47  <mol> you never know michaelfolkson you're a liability and a farce for luke-jr
462 2021-04-14T17:40:08  <michaelfolkson> mol: Lol if he thinks that he can tell me privately
463 2021-04-14T17:40:25  <jeremyrubin> I would love to listen to luke-jr michaelfolkson
464 2021-04-14T17:40:35  <achow101> michaelfolkson: you are not asking us to listen to luke-jr. You are asking us to bow down to luke-jr and accept everything that he wants
465 2021-04-14T17:40:37  <mol> he might not think so but luke-jr needs better help
466 2021-04-14T17:40:41  <jeremyrubin> Luke, what test is BIP8 passing w.r.t. consensus that ST is not?
467 2021-04-14T17:40:51  * jeremyrubin ears open
468 2021-04-14T17:41:03  <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: ST is not MTP
469 2021-04-14T17:41:10  <michaelfolkson> Ok I'm out too. Just please consider what you are doing. You are willing to risk a split network over AJ's test networks. Just so you are clear on that
470 2021-04-14T17:41:12  <jeremyrubin> Ok please don't pedant over terms.
471 2021-04-14T17:41:17  <luke-jr> ST/BIP8 had (has?) widespread support, not ST/BIP9
472 2021-04-14T17:41:23  <jeremyrubin> What test is BIP8 passing that 21377 is not
473 2021-04-14T17:41:37  <jamesob> michaelfolkson: it's hard not to listen to Luke's views occasionally :). Everyone here I think values his participation, input, and unique approach in a general sense, but this whole activation debate is wallowing in the mire. We all want taproot here.
474 2021-04-14T17:41:37  <luke-jr> the community is almost unanimous in favour of BIP8
475 2021-04-14T17:41:39  <jeremyrubin> Where are you observing this consensus
476 2021-04-14T17:41:44  <jeremyrubin> SHOW DON'T TELL
477 2021-04-14T17:41:54  <jeremyrubin> I have not seen it *anywhere*
478 2021-04-14T17:41:56  <luke-jr> most have never even heard of 21377, and it is opposed to the community's consensus aroudn BIP8
479 2021-04-14T17:42:01  <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: then you're not paying attention
480 2021-04-14T17:42:02  <jeremyrubin> WHERE
481 2021-04-14T17:42:09  *** Guyver2 <Guyver2!Guyver@guyver2.xs4all.nl> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
482 2021-04-14T17:42:10  <jeremyrubin> luke-jr: community's consensus aroudn BIP8 WHERE
483 2021-04-14T17:42:20  <jeremyrubin> It should be fucking simple if it exists
484 2021-04-14T17:42:22  *** Guyver2 <Guyver2!Guyver@guyver2.xs4all.nl> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
485 2021-04-14T17:42:23  <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: literally everywhere people talk about Bitcoin/Taproot/activation
486 2021-04-14T17:42:29  <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: it is, but you refuse to look
487 2021-04-14T17:42:32  <jeremyrubin> Then give me *one* example
488 2021-04-14T17:42:32  <achow101> THEN PROVIDE SOME GODDAMN LINKS
489 2021-04-14T17:42:37  *** smctwo <smctwo!~smctwo@bba597217.alshamil.net.ae> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
490 2021-04-14T17:42:54  *** smctwo <smctwo!~smctwo@bba597217.alshamil.net.ae> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
491 2021-04-14T17:43:17  <michaelfolkson> I can't leave can I....
492 2021-04-14T17:43:29  <jeremyrubin> you can!
493 2021-04-14T17:43:31  <luke-jr> go re-read the meeting logs; go look at Twitter or reddit; call up some people you know
494 2021-04-14T17:43:33  <achow101> michaelfolkson: you can leave at any time
495 2021-04-14T17:44:09  <michaelfolkson> achow101: As you know there were very well attended community meetings when we reviewed and finalized BIP 8 (using block heights)
496 2021-04-14T17:44:18  <michaelfolkson> achow101: Not ten people doing a coin flip
497 2021-04-14T17:44:37  <jeremyrubin> That didn't decide what happened, and you know that.
498 2021-04-14T17:44:39  <achow101> And there were very well attended community meetings where we reviewed and finalized ST using MTP
499 2021-04-14T17:44:40  <luke-jr> frankly asking for evidence at this point is just dishonest
500 2021-04-14T17:44:46  <jeremyrubin> wtf
501 2021-04-14T17:44:48  <luke-jr> as if it isn't all over the place
502 2021-04-14T17:44:50  <michaelfolkson> achow101: We then had to decide on the LOT parameter. There wasn't clear consensus on the LOT parameter
503 2021-04-14T17:45:11  <jeremyrubin> michaelfolkson: which meeting was this? The one scheduled 24 hours in advance?
504 2021-04-14T17:45:26  <michaelfolkson> achow101: But that does not mean the community went f*** BIP 8, let's use no BIP and a mix of block height and MTP
505 2021-04-14T17:45:33  <michaelfolkson> *let's not use BIP 8
506 2021-04-14T17:45:50  <achow101> michaelfolkson: WHY IS IT THAT YOU ASSUME THAT GOING WITH MTP ST MEANS FUCK BIP 8??????
507 2021-04-14T17:45:53  <michaelfolkson> jeremyrubin: There were two with 10 days notice I think
508 2021-04-14T17:45:58  <luke-jr> the fact that ST/MTP folks can't engage honestly is what makes this a waste of time
509 2021-04-14T17:46:03  <achow101> THIS ISN'T A BINARY BLACK AND WHITE DECISION
510 2021-04-14T17:46:34  <michaelfolkson> achow101: We don't even know what BIP this MTP, block height is. That is what a shambles this is
511 2021-04-14T17:46:46  <achow101> michaelfolkson: it's BIP 341
512 2021-04-14T17:46:47  <michaelfolkson> Again all for AJ's test networks
513 2021-04-14T17:47:00  <achow101> A PR has been opened to specify all of it in BIP 341
514 2021-04-14T17:47:34  <michaelfolkson> We haven't worked out if it is going to be BIP 9 or a new BIP
515 2021-04-14T17:47:53  <michaelfolkson> When Speedy Trial is sitting there neatly in BIP 8 and it has been reviewed
516 2021-04-14T17:47:54  <achow101> It doesn't matter. It's specified in the place it matter: BIP 341
517 2021-04-14T17:48:04  <achow101> the place it is going to be used
518 2021-04-14T17:48:19  <michaelfolkson> It could be used again. It needs a BIP that isn't Taproot specific
519 2021-04-14T17:48:20  <luke-jr> michaelfolkson: seems achow101's argument is that it's being special-cased in BIP 341 and therefore not expected to be used again
520 2021-04-14T17:48:40  <michaelfolkson> achow101: It could easily be used again. Especially if it is a success
521 2021-04-14T17:48:52  <luke-jr> it shouldn't be used once, much less again
522 2021-04-14T17:48:52  <achow101> michaelfolkson: This is not the first time an activation mechanism was specified in the first BIP it were used, and then referred to again in subsequente soft forks
523 2021-04-14T17:48:55  <achow101> see BIP 34
524 2021-04-14T17:49:10  <achow101> and the later ISM forks that referred to the BIP 34 activation mechanism
525 2021-04-14T17:49:18  <michaelfolkson> From a BIP perspective it is a mess currently imo
526 2021-04-14T17:49:26  <michaelfolkson> Now if that was the only problem I would say ignore it
527 2021-04-14T17:49:30  <michaelfolkson> But it is not
528 2021-04-14T17:49:31  <luke-jr> anyway, how things get documented in BIPs is trivial in comparison to the real issues
529 2021-04-14T17:49:50  <michaelfolkson> We have an alternative client using block height consistently
530 2021-04-14T17:50:15  <michaelfolkson> We also have most reviewers preferring consistent use of block height and only one contributor NACKing it
531 2021-04-14T17:50:26  <michaelfolkson> (for his test networks)
532 2021-04-14T17:50:35  <michaelfolkson> It is just ludicrous
533 2021-04-14T17:51:01  <jamesob> michaelfolkson: there are an infinite number of possible alternative clients; it doesn't make sense to defer to one that just popped up yesterday
534 2021-04-14T17:51:19  <achow101> michaelfolkson: have you read https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7282? I highly suggest you read section 6 "One hundred people for and five people against might not be rough consensus" and section 7 "Five people for and one hundred people against might still be rough consensus"
535 2021-04-14T17:51:45  <michaelfolkson> jamesob: That is fair, but luke-jr is involved. It is not like it is some joker coming out the woodwork trying to cause disruption
536 2021-04-14T17:52:27  <mol> we gathered in the meeting for the 'alternative client' to make luke feel good but only 3 people might run it, the rest of the community will run Core :D
537 2021-04-14T17:52:30  <michaelfolkson> He has also been consistent throughout but people just don't listen to him (even though this is his area of expertise)
538 2021-04-14T17:52:31  <luke-jr> jamesob: it didn't "just pop up yesterday"; it's been an ongoing WIP originally intended for Core, but finally accepting a separate release due to these problems within Core
539 2021-04-14T17:52:44  <jeremyrubin> reading through http://gnusha.org/taproot-activation/2021-02-02.log, based on which michaelfolkson bases claim that BIP9 is "dead" and therefore MTP can't be used, TBH I just don't see that being the emergent agreement
540 2021-04-14T17:53:05  <jeremyrubin> I see people caring about the *properties* of BIP8 vs BIP9, not excluding MTP being used in the future
541 2021-04-14T17:53:08  <michaelfolkson> jeremyrubin: They weren't my words, they were Rusty's words (an author of the BIP)
542 2021-04-14T17:53:27  <michaelfolkson> A neutral observer at the meeting
543 2021-04-14T17:53:38  <jeremyrubin> which meeting? i don't see him saying that in these logs
544 2021-04-14T17:53:59  <michaelfolkson> In his summary after the meeting, his exact words
545 2021-04-14T17:54:21  <michaelfolkson> I just think you like wasting people's time jeremyrubin
546 2021-04-14T17:54:34  <michaelfolkson> But for this I'll find you the link
547 2021-04-14T17:54:35  <jamesob> micahelfolkson: can we shy away from ad hominem?
548 2021-04-14T17:54:37  <jeremyrubin> I'm doing what luke and you asked, which is reviewing the meetings for consensus
549 2021-04-14T17:54:42  <jeremyrubin> https://bitcoinhackers.org/@rusty/105664386728806153
550 2021-04-14T17:55:19  <michaelfolkson> jeremyrubin: Exactly, thank you
551 2021-04-14T17:56:09  <jeremyrubin> I see, but it's *your job* as a summarizer to filter. And "dead" (not RIP) is a quote due to you
552 2021-04-14T17:56:25  <michaelfolkson> The maintainers will essentially need to decide. I recommend they ask aj to use block heights consistently personally. But if he refuses it is up to them what they merge
553 2021-04-14T17:56:38  <michaelfolkson> jeremyrubin: You are quibbling over RIP versus dead? Seriously?
554 2021-04-14T17:56:46  <michaelfolkson> You are just trolling and wasting my time
555 2021-04-14T17:56:48  <jeremyrubin> I'm just saying you seem to beleive rusty
556 2021-04-14T17:57:01  <jeremyrubin> and you've extrapolated BIP9 RIP ==> MTP cannot be used
557 2021-04-14T17:57:11  <michaelfolkson> I haven't
558 2021-04-14T17:57:16  <michaelfolkson> This is torture
559 2021-04-14T17:57:28  <michaelfolkson> I've said not to use BIP 9
560 2021-04-14T17:57:35  <jeremyrubin> And are you in the chair or holding the bucket of water?
561 2021-04-14T17:57:49  <michaelfolkson> And the only BIP that has been reviewed and includes Speedy Trial is BIP 8
562 2021-04-14T17:58:09  <jeremyrubin> #21377 has been reviewed, as has the corresponding 341 BIP
563 2021-04-14T17:58:12  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21377 | Speedy trial support for versionbits by ajtowns · Pull Request #21377 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
564 2021-04-14T17:58:18  <achow101> michaelfolkson: we aren't using BIP 9. MTP != BIP 9
565 2021-04-14T17:58:25  <jeremyrubin> in fact at this point it probably has more review than any BIP8 anything has ever had
566 2021-04-14T17:58:28  <achow101> jeremyrubin: he's in the chair dunking his own head into the bucket of water
567 2021-04-14T17:59:00  <michaelfolkson> We. will. need. a. BIP. for. Speedy. Trial (that is not Taproot specific)
568 2021-04-14T17:59:12  <jeremyrubin> can happen after the fact
569 2021-04-14T17:59:22  <michaelfolkson> Sjors has opened a PR to change BIP 9
570 2021-04-14T17:59:22  <achow101> A generalized BIP can happen afterwards
571 2021-04-14T17:59:25  <jeremyrubin> BIPs are often descriptive
572 2021-04-14T17:59:29  <jeremyrubin> not prescriptive
573 2021-04-14T17:59:50  <jeremyrubin> (in fact, it's usually preferable to be descriptive otherwise we have useless BIPs clogging the numberspace)
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575 2021-04-14T18:00:00  <michaelfolkson> Whatever. As I've said the maintainers will need to make the decision. I would recommend they ask aj to change to block heights consistently.
576 2021-04-14T18:00:15  <michaelfolkson> If he refuses we have the risk of a split network if it gets merged
577 2021-04-14T18:00:21  <jeremyrubin> THAT IS NOT MAINTAINERS JOBS IT IS A DANGEROUS MYTH YOU ARE PERPETUATING
578 2021-04-14T18:00:31  *** sipa <sipa!~pw@gateway/tor-sasl/sipa1024> has left #bitcoin-core-dev
579 2021-04-14T18:00:32  <michaelfolkson> A small risk, but a risk nonetheless
580 2021-04-14T18:00:52  <michaelfolkson> jeremyrubin: It is when people are going mad doing coin flips and whatever else
581 2021-04-14T18:01:11  <jeremyrubin> Project maintainers have commit access and are responsible for merging patches from contributors. They perform a janitorial role merging patches that the team agrees should be merged. They also act as a final check to ensure that patches are safe and in line with the project goals. The maintainers’ role is by agreement of project contributors.
582 2021-04-14T18:01:53  <michaelfolkson> When people are going mad doing coin flips the only people stopping dumb stuff from being merged is the maintainers
583 2021-04-14T18:01:59  <jeremyrubin> If there is a safety concern, maintainers can raise it. But using their maintainer hat they aren't in the role of prescribing something else.
584 2021-04-14T18:02:12  <achow101> michaelfolkson: you keep harping on about this coin flip thing as if it actually mattered
585 2021-04-14T18:02:29  <achow101> do you actually think the coin flip was what decided which PR to close?
586 2021-04-14T18:02:29  <michaelfolkson> I don't have anymore to add
587 2021-04-14T18:02:40  <michaelfolkson> If you start piling on Luke again I'll come back
588 2021-04-14T18:02:48  <mol> lmao
589 2021-04-14T18:02:49  <achow101> you've had nothing more to add for a long time
590 2021-04-14T18:02:57  <jeremyrubin> luke-jr is a big boy, he can handle himself
591 2021-04-14T18:02:59  <michaelfolkson> Otherwise I'm out
592 2021-04-14T18:02:59  <achow101> we've been having the same exact discussion for the past several weeks
593 2021-04-14T18:03:05  <mol> bye
594 2021-04-14T18:05:28  <roconnor> so, #21377 rtm then?
595 2021-04-14T18:05:32  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21377 | Speedy trial support for versionbits by ajtowns · Pull Request #21377 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
596 2021-04-14T18:06:03  <jeremyrubin> roconnor: I'd like to play with the tests a bit more to go from cr-ack to tack, but that can happen after merge
597 2021-04-14T18:06:10  <jeremyrubin> so rtm from me
598 2021-04-14T18:06:50  *** lightlike <lightlike!~lightlike@p200300c7ef169b008d78383155562f3b.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
599 2021-04-14T18:07:26  <jonatack> roconnor: jamesob and i are still reviewing, idk about others, not to block anything tho
600 2021-04-14T18:07:40  *** jungly <jungly!~jungly@host-80-116-30-252.retail.telecomitalia.it> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
601 2021-04-14T18:07:49  <jamesob> yeah I'm happy to continue review post-merge
602 2021-04-14T18:08:56  <luke-jr> roconnor: no
603 2021-04-14T18:09:19  <luke-jr> it's still unacceptable to ignore the community
604 2021-04-14T18:10:57  <jnewbery> it's ready to merge
605 2021-04-14T18:11:14  <luke-jr> it's abuse of position to merge
606 2021-04-14T18:12:40  <jeremyrubin> noted
607 2021-04-14T18:17:02  *** smctwo <smctwo!~smctwo@bba597217.alshamil.net.ae> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
608 2021-04-14T18:18:26  <jeremyrubin> I've gone and re-looked at the notes
609 2021-04-14T18:19:06  <BlueMatt> roconnor: yep! 21377 looks ready to merge!
610 2021-04-14T18:19:10  <jeremyrubin> I can see why luke-jr and michaelfolkson think there might be consensus on BIP8, but I think they are viewing the process as "gradient descent on a continuos surface" as opposed to a discontinuous process.
611 2021-04-14T18:19:24  <jeremyrubin> There was never an inkling of consensus on a LOT=true parameter
612 2021-04-14T18:19:29  <jeremyrubin> it was always hotly contested
613 2021-04-14T18:19:35  <jeremyrubin> and BIP8 requires *a choice* of that
614 2021-04-14T18:20:41  <jeremyrubin> so it seems inaccurate to me to label BIP8 as having consensus when a key parameter did not
615 2021-04-14T18:21:07  <jeremyrubin> 21377, being a whole new thing, needs to be independently evaluated
616 2021-04-14T18:21:39  *** cec <cec!aedb0499@153.sub-174-219-4.myvzw.com> has quit IRC (Quit: Connection closed)
617 2021-04-14T18:21:39  <jeremyrubin> "but we already agreed to XXX for BIP8" doesn't hold when a keystone component of BIP8 (LOT) is what made ST a thing in the first place.
618 2021-04-14T18:22:46  <jeremyrubin> Further, the type of consensus around BIP8 in these meeting logs (maybe it's somewhere else, figure the meetings are more relevant than twitter/reddit) is not super high quality IMO because it's mainly ACK'ing the properties of BIP8 as opposed to the specific implementation
619 2021-04-14T18:22:58  <jeremyrubin> And it's less explicit ACKs as opposed to "sounds OK"
620 2021-04-14T18:23:10  <jeremyrubin> (there was no, afaict, concrete PRs in the air?)
621 2021-04-14T18:23:12  <harding> Re rtm status: I'm reviewing 21377 again today, but I've tested it quite a bit so far and not found any problems.  I'll also continue reviewing post-merge if it gets merged today.
622 2021-04-14T18:24:07  <jeremyrubin> In contrast, the ACKs on harding's proposal (which allows for middle space of BIP8 or BIP9) https://gist.github.com/michaelfolkson/92899f27f1ab30aa2ebee82314f8fe7f is much more exhaustive and explicit
623 2021-04-14T18:24:36  <jeremyrubin> 21377 being a concrete instantion of that suggests to me it is acceptable by the community
624 2021-04-14T18:25:36  <jeremyrubin> Further in support of BIP8's consensus being questionable earlier on, I think harding has had a very good read on the community in general. I don't beleive he would have included BIP9 in his proposal as an option if he thought the community was decisive
625 2021-04-14T18:25:44  <jeremyrubin> (harding don't let me assume your intent)
626 2021-04-14T18:26:18  <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: BIP8 doesn't require LOT for ST any more than BIP9 does
627 2021-04-14T18:26:48  <jeremyrubin> Overall I feel relativelty confident based on this review dismissing the notion that BIP8 has consensus and ST/MTP does not
628 2021-04-14T18:27:02  <jeremyrubin> but others can do their own review of this summary independently
629 2021-04-14T18:28:42  <jeremyrubin> Sorry if this is line noise for this channel -- but this is the best job I could do at breaking down the claim that BIP8 has consensus (LOT=?) and ST/MTP does not
630 2021-04-14T18:29:29  <midnight> If someone +o me, I'll clean this channel up and then you can blame me.
631 2021-04-14T18:29:31  <BlueMatt> fwiw, I do, like I think several others, have a weak but repeatedly-stated preference for MTP over height.
632 2021-04-14T18:31:05  <jeremyrubin> midnight: I don't think there's a need, but if you're referring to me I'll put myself in timeout voluntarily. lunch time
633 2021-04-14T18:39:12  <emzy> fwiw I was prefering bip8 and ok with bip9 in the beginning. And I think many thought the same at that time.
634 2021-04-14T18:39:42  <emzy> (hight over MTP)
635 2021-04-14T18:39:56  <emzy> *hight
636 2021-04-14T18:43:05  <BlueMatt> emzy: right, people gonna disagree, cause people. trying to blow up progress because of a triviality, tho....
637 2021-04-14T18:43:44  <provoostenator> The "BIP 8"  (LOT=false) speedy trial PR #21392 is of similiar quality to the BIP 9 one IMO.
638 2021-04-14T18:43:48  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21392 | Implement BIP 8 based Speedy Trial activation by achow101 · Pull Request #21392 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
639 2021-04-14T18:43:53  <emzy> BlueMatt: I agree.
640 2021-04-14T18:44:11  <provoostenator> For BIP 8 itself  the main issue was LOT=true but I don't think there was much objection to implemting the LOT=false version.
641 2021-04-14T18:44:14  <provoostenator> It's a coin toss :-)
642 2021-04-14T18:44:24  <provoostenator> (but not literally)
643 2021-04-14T18:44:48  <BlueMatt> provoostenator: right, one of those trivialities that we generally just say "code author decides, cause it doesnt matter" :p
644 2021-04-14T18:44:51  <jeremyrubin> of course, a literal coin toss wouldn't be provably fair over the phone ;)
645 2021-04-14T18:44:58  <BlueMatt> or, if you really care, a coin toss
646 2021-04-14T18:45:23  <Emcy> if its rtm, please merge it
647 2021-04-14T18:45:27  <Emcy> no more peanut gallery
648 2021-04-14T18:45:32  <provoostenator> Right, I was just responding to earlier discussion about BIP 8 being totally not in a review ready state. That's only true for LOT=true.
649 2021-04-14T18:45:43  <jeremyrubin> provoostenator: I don't disagree on quality, 21377 has more acks/review though so closer to RTM
650 2021-04-14T18:45:46  <provoostenator> Because that PR needs more work and more thinking
651 2021-04-14T18:46:12  <provoostenator> jeremyrubin: it certainly does now
652 2021-04-14T18:47:49  <BlueMatt> sounds like most of us are in agreement, its ready to merge 🎉
653 2021-04-14T18:48:33  <jeremyrubin> Ah yes, provoostenator was commenting on my comment at [11:22:46 AM PDT]
654 2021-04-14T18:48:54  <jeremyrubin> I'm looking back at the february meetings which were I think before any PR
655 2021-04-14T18:50:35  <provoostenator> I like that it has a +1 from Voskuil too, who needs to deal with implemting this in libbitcoin.
656 2021-04-14T18:50:46  <provoostenator> Aperently also support from Btcd.
657 2021-04-14T18:51:45  <provoostenator> And so far no comment along the lines of "my goodness this is a nightmare to implement in [my favorite BTC client]"
658 2021-04-14T18:52:14  <BlueMatt> plus voskuil *normally* disagrees very strongly on bitcoin fork activation stuff, so him agreeing is a pretty good "did we even slightly screw this up" check
659 2021-04-14T18:52:49  <jeremyrubin> BlueMatt: don't let him catch you saying that
660 2021-04-14T18:52:52  <BlueMatt> heh
661 2021-04-14T18:54:56  *** smctwo <smctwo!~smctwo@bba597217.alshamil.net.ae> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
662 2021-04-14T19:01:00  *** Randolf <Randolf!~randolf@184.70.10.189> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
663 2021-04-14T19:03:55  *** jungly <jungly!~jungly@host-80-116-30-252.pool80116.interbusiness.it> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
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670 2021-04-14T19:41:02  *** Kimi <Kimi!~Kiminuo@141.98.103.236> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
671 2021-04-14T19:42:16  *** Randolf <Randolf!~randolf@184.70.10.189> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
672 2021-04-14T19:46:11  <jonasschnelli> #proposedmeetingtopic short info/update on the "Bitcoin Core Code Signing Association" status.
673 2021-04-14T19:59:32  *** IGHOR <IGHOR!~quassel@176.121.4.135> has quit IRC (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org ? ??????????? ?????????. ????-??.)
674 2021-04-14T20:03:38  <da2ce7_> wumpus: "<bitcoin-git> [gui] laanwj merged pull request #260: Handle exceptions instead of crash (master...210326-ex) https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gui/pull/260" the merge script seems to have a bug...
675 2021-04-14T20:03:40  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/260 | Add esperanto translation. by TheBlueMatt · Pull Request #260 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
676 2021-04-14T20:04:15  <wumpus> da2ce7_: how that?
677 2021-04-14T20:04:39  *** smctwo <smctwo!~smctwo@bba597217.alshamil.net.ae> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
678 2021-04-14T20:04:41  <da2ce7_> well well; pull request is 260 is quite old...
679 2021-04-14T20:05:21  *** smctwo <smctwo!~smctwo@bba597217.alshamil.net.ae> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
680 2021-04-14T20:06:23  *** IGHOR <IGHOR!~quassel@176.121.4.135> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
681 2021-04-14T20:06:26  <wumpus> it links to the GUI repo: https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gui/pull/260
682 2021-04-14T20:06:37  *** smctwo <smctwo!~smctwo@bba597217.alshamil.net.ae> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
683 2021-04-14T20:06:52  <da2ce7_> ahhh. O.o; my bad then.
684 2021-04-14T20:06:59  <wumpus> which has its own PR namespace, and started more recently, so the numbers are lower :)
685 2021-04-14T20:07:12  *** smctwo <smctwo!~smctwo@bba597217.alshamil.net.ae> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
686 2021-04-14T20:08:01  <da2ce7_> I just clicked it via the github interface.
687 2021-04-14T20:10:03  <wumpus> i see the issue now
688 2021-04-14T20:10:06  *** meinwolf <meinwolf!~meinwolf@unaffiliated/meinwolf> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
689 2021-04-14T20:10:19  *** meinwolf <meinwolf!~meinwolf@unaffiliated/meinwolf> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
690 2021-04-14T20:11:25  <wumpus> it is supposed to do Merge bitcoin-core/gui#266
691 2021-04-14T20:11:28  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/266 | Backport to wx2.8 and dynamically link most libs. by TheBlueMatt · Pull Request #266 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
692 2021-04-14T20:11:57  <amiti> is anyone here admin for the bitcoin-dev mailing list? I've been trying to send an email and struggling :(
693 2021-04-14T20:13:13  <wumpus> da2ce7_: I didn't *use* the script correctly, apparently, thanks for noticing
694 2021-04-14T20:13:24  <michaelfolkson> amiti: I think RubenSomsen is
695 2021-04-14T20:13:56  <michaelfolkson> amiti: What's the problem? There is sometimes a delay before it gets published if that's the concern?
696 2021-04-14T20:14:29  <amiti> my emails are bouncing saying I'm not subscribed to the list, but I am
697 2021-04-14T20:15:03  <michaelfolkson> Oh that is weird.. yeah I'm sure Ruben will be able to help (or at least point you to someone else who can help)
698 2021-04-14T20:15:24  <amiti> ok, thanks
699 2021-04-14T20:16:34  <da2ce7_> :)
700 2021-04-14T20:18:54  *** smctwo <smctwo!~smctwo@bba597217.alshamil.net.ae> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
701 2021-04-14T20:19:06  *** smctwo <smctwo!~smctwo@bba597217.alshamil.net.ae> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
702 2021-04-14T20:23:17  *** justan0theruser <justan0theruser!~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
703 2021-04-14T20:24:21  <wumpus> amiti: or kanzure maybe
704 2021-04-14T20:25:11  <amiti> wumpus: will check it out, thanks :)
705 2021-04-14T20:25:51  *** justanotheruser <justanotheruser!~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
706 2021-04-14T20:42:38  <luke-jr> it's not triviality except to BIP9 advocates
707 2021-04-14T20:44:39  *** GarouDan <GarouDan!~GarouDan@191.242.119.219.fibra.plimtelecom.com.br> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
708 2021-04-14T20:44:56  <luke-jr> or to be more correct, people who don't consider it a triviality, are unanimously in favour of BIP8
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718 2021-04-14T21:17:47  <RubenSomsen> Problem solved, was able subscribe amiti to the mailing list manually to resolve it
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721 2021-04-14T21:30:41  <dergoegge> whats the easiest way to debug a test on windows without having a windows machine? (i am trying to figure out why the test i wrote in #21603 is failing on windows only)
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723 2021-04-14T21:30:43  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21603 | log: Mitigate disk filling attacks by rate limiting LogPrintf by dergoegge · Pull Request #21603 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
724 2021-04-14T21:31:21  <dergoegge> i have tried running "FILE_ENV="./ci/test/00_setup_env_win64.sh" ./ci/test_run_all.sh" but that keeps failing while building :/
725 2021-04-14T21:31:44  <dergoegge> (i am on macOS if that makes a difference)
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739 2021-04-14T21:56:59  <jarolrod> windows virtual machine?
740 2021-04-14T22:13:06  <phantomcircuit> dergoegge, iirc the windows test harness is pretty noisy
741 2021-04-14T22:16:51  <phantomcircuit> oh
742 2021-04-14T22:17:37  <phantomcircuit> dergoegge, you're assuming that LogPrintf("%s\n", std::string(1023, 'a')); results in 1024 bytes written, but on windows it might be 1025 cause of line endings
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748 2021-04-14T22:32:18  <dergoegge> jarolrod: yea i guess but  i was hoping i could avoid setting up a vm from scratch, but that is probably the best way
749 2021-04-14T22:34:25  <dergoegge> phantomcircuit: oh right, thats probably it, thank you
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753 2021-04-14T22:52:58  <kanzure> amiti: also you may have sent to bitcoin-discuss instead of bitcoin-dev
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755 2021-04-14T22:55:01  <amiti> kanzure: it was very odd, my email address wouldn't subscribe to bitcoin-dev, so per ReubenSomsen's suggestion we debugged by using bitcoin-discuss
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