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 21 2021-05-07T01:31:56  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] windsok opened pull request #21873: test: minor fixes & improvements for files linter test (master...files-lint-fixups) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21873
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 28 2021-05-07T01:50:49  <yanmaani> what's the difference in terms of abstraction level of interfaces::Chain and ChainstateManager?
 29 2021-05-07T01:52:44  <yanmaani> ChainstateManager is only for names?
 30 2021-05-07T01:52:50  <yanmaani> I mean RPCs
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 39 2021-05-07T03:11:32  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/06d573f053c6...a0d1d487e93d
 40 2021-05-07T03:11:32  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 39e1971 John Newbery: [net processing] Add internal _RelayTransactions()
 41 2021-05-07T03:11:33  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master a0d1d48 fanquake: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#21845: net processing: Don't require locking cs_main...
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 44 2021-05-07T03:11:52  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #21845: net processing: Don't require locking cs_main before calling RelayTransactions() (master...2021-05-internal_relay_txs) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21845
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 68 2021-05-07T07:12:34  <hebasto> cirrus fuzzer job timed out recently
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 72 2021-05-07T08:06:36  <jnewbery> jeremyrubin: I'm not familiar enough with the proposal to have an opinion. As the author, you should use whatever you think is the clearest and most concise name.
 73 2021-05-07T08:07:00  <jnewbery> (as long as it's not SecureTheBag!)
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 78 2021-05-07T08:25:43  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/a0d1d487e93d...a33f360fcdd2
 79 2021-05-07T08:25:43  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2227fc4 windsok: test: minor fixes & improvements for files linter test
 80 2021-05-07T08:25:44  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master a33f360 MarcoFalke: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#21873: test: minor fixes & improvements for files li...
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 83 2021-05-07T08:26:03  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #21873: test: minor fixes & improvements for files linter test (master...files-lint-fixups) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21873
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 87 2021-05-07T08:29:40  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/a33f360fcdd2...eb9a1fe03779
 88 2021-05-07T08:29:41  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa09871 MarcoFalke: refactor: Avoid sign-compare compiler warning in util/asmap
 89 2021-05-07T08:29:42  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master eb9a1fe MarcoFalke: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#21802: refactor: Avoid UB in util/asmap (advance a d...
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 92 2021-05-07T08:30:00  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #21802: refactor: Avoid UB in util/asmap (advance a dereferenceable iterator outside its valid range) (master...2104-asmapRefactor) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21802
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 99 2021-05-07T09:03:56  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #21874: fuzz: Add WRITE_ALL_FUZZ_TARGETS_AND_ABORT (master...2105-fuzzWRITE_ALL_FUZZ_TARGETS_AND_ABORT) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21874
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122 2021-05-07T11:14:08  <conman> Hi all, for taproot mining pool support, apart from signalling in the version bits, is there anything new that is needed for constructing blocks once it's activated?
123 2021-05-07T11:17:29  <michaelfolkson> conman: This is a question for ##taproot-activation. But in answer to your question, no just signaling in version bits. Assuming it successfully activates then Taproot rules are only enforced in November.
124 2021-05-07T11:17:52  <conman> great thanks, will move to t's and a's
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130 2021-05-07T11:43:10  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jbampton opened pull request #21875: doc: fix spelling (master...fix-spelling) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21875
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134 2021-05-07T13:01:40  <jonatack> hebasto: seeing this too, fuzzer timing out since a day or so
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138 2021-05-07T13:34:46  *** GarouDan <GarouDan!~GarouDan@191.242.119.219.fibra.plimtelecom.com.br> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
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140 2021-05-07T13:46:33  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/eb9a1fe03779...9313c4e6aa4b
141 2021-05-07T13:46:33  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa5cb6b MarcoFalke: fuzz: Add WRITE_ALL_FUZZ_TARGETS_AND_ABORT
142 2021-05-07T13:46:34  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 9313c4e MarcoFalke: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#21874: fuzz: Add WRITE_ALL_FUZZ_TARGETS_AND_ABORT
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145 2021-05-07T13:46:53  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #21874: fuzz: Add WRITE_ALL_FUZZ_TARGETS_AND_ABORT (master...2105-fuzzWRITE_ALL_FUZZ_TARGETS_AND_ABORT) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21874
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164 2021-05-07T16:04:54  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] vasild opened pull request #21878: fubar everything (master...Sock_all_over_the_place) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21878
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167 2021-05-07T16:08:06  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] vasild opened pull request #21879: Wrap accept() and extend usage of Sock (master...SockAccept) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21879
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171 2021-05-07T16:18:46  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] vasild closed pull request #21700: net: expand Sock and fuzz-test more of CConnman (master...Sock_expand) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21700
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175 2021-05-07T16:26:33  <jeremyrubin> conman: I think the question is appropriate here fwiw. if you are running the latest core client your blocks will correctly mine all txns, if you don't upgrade you'll be SPV mining the tip, but you won't select any invalid txns but you won't include taproot spends in mempool
176 2021-05-07T16:28:55  <gmaxwell> michaelfolkson: please don't direct people to ##taproot-activation for asking technical questions about how bitcoin works.
177 2021-05-07T16:30:02  <gmaxwell> jeremyrubin: s/don't upgrade/don't upgrade by november/ to be pedantic, though I'm sure conman understands.
178 2021-05-07T16:30:15  <gmaxwell> conman: yeah, it's not like segwit there is no pool software changes or anything like that.
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180 2021-05-07T16:31:25  <michaelfolkson> gmaxwell: Ok sorry. Just a habit by now after last 3 months. I won't do so again if people are happy to have Taproot activation related questions here from now on
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182 2021-05-07T16:33:13  <luke-jr> michaelfolkson: it's not a Taproot activation question
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184 2021-05-07T16:35:45  <michaelfolkson> luke-jr: Fair enough
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190 2021-05-07T16:57:56  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] klementtan opened pull request #21880: wallet: remove GetScriptPubKeyMan spam (master...GetScriptPubKeyMan-spam) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21880
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222 2021-05-07T19:00:52  <achow101> wallet meeting?
223 2021-05-07T19:01:56  <achow101> #startmeeting
224 2021-05-07T19:01:56  <core-meetingbot> Meeting started Fri May  7 19:01:56 2021 UTC.  The chair is achow101. Information about MeetBot at https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings.
225 2021-05-07T19:01:57  <core-meetingbot> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
226 2021-05-07T19:02:34  <fjahr> hi
227 2021-05-07T19:02:50  <sipa> hi
228 2021-05-07T19:02:51  <meshcollider> Hi
229 2021-05-07T19:03:03  <achow101> #bitcoin-core-dev Wallet Meeting: achow101 aj amiti ariard bluematt cfields Chris_Stewart_5 digi_james dongcarl elichai2 emilengler fanquake fjahr gleb glozow gmaxwell gwillen hebasto instagibbs jamesob jb55 jeremyrubin jl2012 jnewbery jonasschnelli jonatack jtimon kallewoof kanzure kvaciral lightlike luke-jr maaku marcofalke meshcollider michagogo moneyball morcos nehan NicolasDorier paveljanik petertodd phantomcircuit promag
230 2021-05-07T19:03:03  <achow101> provoostenator ryanofsky sdaftuar sipa vasild wumpus
231 2021-05-07T19:03:11  <achow101> any topics?
232 2021-05-07T19:03:20  *** braydonf_ <braydonf_!~braydon@gateway/tor-sasl/braydonf> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
233 2021-05-07T19:03:30  <sipa> none from me
234 2021-05-07T19:03:38  <jonatack> hi
235 2021-05-07T19:03:41  *** braydonf_ <braydonf_!~braydon@gateway/tor-sasl/braydonf> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
236 2021-05-07T19:03:51  <meshcollider> Any wallet review begs?
237 2021-05-07T19:04:01  <achow101> #17331 pls
238 2021-05-07T19:04:01  <jonatack> yes!
239 2021-05-07T19:04:07  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/17331 | Use effective values throughout coin selection by achow101 · Pull Request #17331 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
240 2021-05-07T19:04:08  <meshcollider> Theres a few things in the GUI repo I need to have a look at
241 2021-05-07T19:04:42  <fjahr> will re-review 17331 this weekend
242 2021-05-07T19:04:51  <jonatack> #21786 is my second proposal to fix #20534 from last year
243 2021-05-07T19:04:53  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21786 | wallet: ensure sat/vB feerates are in range (mantissa of 3) by jonatack · Pull Request #21786 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
244 2021-05-07T19:04:53  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/20534 | sat/b values arent validated to be in-range · Issue #20534 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
245 2021-05-07T19:05:10  <jonatack> it's simpler and more complete
246 2021-05-07T19:06:15  <achow101> cool, I'll add it to my list
247 2021-05-07T19:06:30  <jonatack> 17331 and follow-up are on my list
248 2021-05-07T19:06:33  *** jesseposner <jesseposner!~jesseposn@2601:645:200:162f:bcd4:42d8:7d4a:791f> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
249 2021-05-07T19:06:53  <jonatack> the review clubs were very good
250 2021-05-07T19:07:59  <fjahr> Looking forward to a rebase on #21365 as well :)
251 2021-05-07T19:08:02  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21365 | Basic Taproot signing support for descriptor wallets by sipa · Pull Request #21365 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
252 2021-05-07T19:08:19  <fjahr> jonatack: will check it out
253 2021-05-07T19:08:48  <jonatack> fjahr: thanks. it's only a handful of lines and then tests
254 2021-05-07T19:08:50  <achow101> Is it reasonable to try to get taproot wallets for 22.0?
255 2021-05-07T19:10:48  <achow101> With feature freeze in June, I'm not sure that we can make it
256 2021-05-07T19:10:52  <meshcollider> I think so?
257 2021-05-07T19:10:56  <jonatack> five weeks until June 15 feature freeze
258 2021-05-07T19:11:19  <meshcollider> Nothing is impossible if enough people are willing to make it happen :)
259 2021-05-07T19:11:53  <achow101> oh, it's only #21365, the prereqs were merged
260 2021-05-07T19:11:56  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21365 | Basic Taproot signing support for descriptor wallets by sipa · Pull Request #21365 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
261 2021-05-07T19:12:03  <fjahr> I guess if signalling goes well interest will be high enough, if not people will focus on activation discussions :-/
262 2021-05-07T19:12:46  <fjahr> (by well at least going in the right direction towards lockin within the next 4 weeks)
263 2021-05-07T19:12:57  <fjahr> *by well I mean
264 2021-05-07T19:13:36  <achow101> hmm, there's also the question of how does the wallet behave if that is merged before taproot activates?
265 2021-05-07T19:13:56  <achow101> definitely don't want to be giving out taproot addresses before activation
266 2021-05-07T19:14:24  <achow101> 22.0 will definitely be released before activation
267 2021-05-07T19:14:40  <sipa> we can merge taproot wallet support without by default construction such descriptors
268 2021-05-07T19:15:02  <achow101> but what happens if someone imports a taproot descriptor?
269 2021-05-07T19:15:05  <sipa> perhaps we additionally want a safeguard that prevents the creation of such addresses in general before activation
270 2021-05-07T19:15:29  <sipa> but you can't prevent people from importing crazy descriptors in general
271 2021-05-07T19:16:27  <meshcollider> I mean, it's not like someone can accidentally import a taproot descriptor if they didn't intend to
272 2021-05-07T19:17:37  <achow101> indeed
273 2021-05-07T19:18:04  <jonatack> address safeguard sounds good
274 2021-05-07T19:18:30  <sipa> i'm not sure where such a safeguard should go
275 2021-05-07T19:18:35  <sipa> prevent importing the descriptor?
276 2021-05-07T19:18:42  <sipa> that's possible with some adhoc code i guess
277 2021-05-07T19:18:58  <sipa> or prevent generating addresses with it?
278 2021-05-07T19:19:04  <sipa> or outlaw the descriptor in general?
279 2021-05-07T19:19:05  <achow101> I was thinking we should have a warning if someone imports a taproot descriptor
280 2021-05-07T19:19:09  <luke-jr> maybe tr() shouldn't be valid until activation?
281 2021-05-07T19:19:22  <achow101> and then something that disallows getting bech32m addresses
282 2021-05-07T19:19:28  <jonatack> for mainnet
283 2021-05-07T19:19:47  <sipa> luke-jr: a downside is that a wallet rescanning post activation might consider the descriptor invalid then
284 2021-05-07T19:20:09  <luke-jr> hmm
285 2021-05-07T19:20:09  <sipa> well, or a node reindexing, with a loaded wallet
286 2021-05-07T19:20:23  <sipa> sec, brb
287 2021-05-07T19:20:39  <luke-jr> I guess logically it should simply not be recognised as the sPK matching
288 2021-05-07T19:20:42  <achow101> maybe just a scary warning on import then. just tell people what they're doing is not recommended because taproot isn't active
289 2021-05-07T19:20:57  <luke-jr> since you don't want a wallet rescan to show pre-activation coins either
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291 2021-05-07T19:21:36  <sipa> luke-jr: hmm
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293 2021-05-07T19:24:54  <achow101> hmm, if we disallow import until after activation, then none of this would be a problem?
294 2021-05-07T19:25:02  <achow101> even pre-activation coins are fine post-activation
295 2021-05-07T19:25:12  <meshcollider> Yeah it seems a catch at import-time would be simplest then
296 2021-05-07T19:25:57  <sipa> achow101: yeah, that seems reasonable
297 2021-05-07T19:27:59  <achow101> anything else to discuss?
298 2021-05-07T19:30:00  <achow101> #endmeeting
299 2021-05-07T19:30:00  <core-meetingbot> topic: Bitcoin Core development discussion and commit log | Feel free to watch, but please take commentary and usage questions to #bitcoin | Channel logs: http://www.erisian.com.au/bitcoin-core-dev/, http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/ | Meeting topics http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedmeetingtopics.txt / http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedwalletmeetingtopics.txt
300 2021-05-07T19:30:01  <core-meetingbot> Meeting ended Fri May  7 19:30:00 2021 UTC.
301 2021-05-07T19:30:01  <core-meetingbot> Minutes:        https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings/logs/bitcoin-core-dev/2021/bitcoin-core-dev.2021-05-07-19.01.moin.txt
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305 2021-05-07T19:37:10  <gmaxwell> achow101: you could also ship with it disabled but have a conf setting to enable it, which can be set by users after activation... and then all the weird issues with rescan/etc. go away.
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309 2021-05-07T19:55:09  <roconnor> achow101: do you wait for 120 blocks after activation? include special min-locktime logic?
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313 2021-05-07T20:00:26  <achow101> gmaxwell: that's one possibility, although I would be concerned about users setting the config option before activation
314 2021-05-07T20:01:07  <achow101> roconnor: not implemented yet, so up for debate. I imagine it would just run the versionbits checker and see if it returns active
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320 2021-05-07T20:07:20  <gmaxwell> achow101: his point was that as soon as it activates its not safe to use due to reorgs.
321 2021-05-07T20:08:04  <gmaxwell> achow101: any taproot payment should be locktimed the activation height, ideally-- at least until a few blocks after activation.
322 2021-05-07T20:08:58  <achow101> but as the receiver, you can't make the sender locktime it, so it would be better to just wait
323 2021-05-07T20:09:42  <gmaxwell> yeah, you shouldn't issue a taproot address until N blocks after activation, with N depending on how much value you're talking about.
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325 2021-05-07T20:18:43  <jeremyrubin> i have ~generally thought about sender specified locktimes (it's something that CTV does let you do, in a roundabout way) as kind of useful
326 2021-05-07T20:19:18  <jeremyrubin> E.g., if I set up a will and testament "on your 21st birthday you get X" is desirable.
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328 2021-05-07T20:24:09  <roconnor> I'll suggest N = 120 which was the original default coinbase maturity policy.  Seems about as good as any other number.
329 2021-05-07T20:24:22  <jeremyrubin> source?
330 2021-05-07T20:24:48  <roconnor> source for what?
331 2021-05-07T20:25:29  <sipa> i confirm roconnor's claim
332 2021-05-07T20:25:40  <sipa> but i'm too lazy to go look in the source code now
333 2021-05-07T20:27:07  <jeremyrubin> I think it's false
334 2021-05-07T20:27:23  <jeremyrubin> https://github.com/JeremyRubin/satoshis-version/blob/2197a48a1432f567314ce6c6c4be9270518f882e/src/main.cpp#L826
335 2021-05-07T20:27:25  <roconnor> the consensus rule was 100 blocks, but the policy was 120.
336 2021-05-07T20:27:30  <jeremyrubin> correct
337 2021-05-07T20:28:45  <roconnor> https://github.com/JeremyRubin/satoshis-version/blob/2197a48a1432f567314ce6c6c4be9270518f882e/src/main.cpp#L544
338 2021-05-07T20:29:07  <jeremyrubin> yep but only for policy / wallet display
339 2021-05-07T20:29:26  <sipa> that's what roconnor said
340 2021-05-07T20:29:38  <roconnor> That's why I said "default coinbase maturity policy".
341 2021-05-07T20:29:54  <jeremyrubin> Ah
342 2021-05-07T20:30:15  <jeremyrubin> I think it was kinda confusing because there is only (afaiu?) a maturity consensus rule these days
343 2021-05-07T20:30:45  <jeremyrubin> I thought you meant there used to be a diff consensus rule
344 2021-05-07T20:31:09  <jeremyrubin> apologies
345 2021-05-07T20:31:39  <roconnor> It seems like a good number in this case in that it is the most conservative historal value used in cases where we are worried about loss of funds due to reorgs.
346 2021-05-07T20:33:10  <sipa> in reality, the most important part will just be when the wallet starts constructing such addresses by default (or even when it provides a moderately convenient way of choosing to do so), which will likely be 1000s of blocks after activation
347 2021-05-07T20:33:22  <sipa> we're just talking about a extra anti-footgun measure
348 2021-05-07T20:33:25  <sipa> here
349 2021-05-07T20:35:57  <jeremyrubin> also note that it won't accidentally get into a block
350 2021-05-07T20:36:09  <jeremyrubin> Nor relayed
351 2021-05-07T20:36:22  <jeremyrubin> (the spends of it, not creation)
352 2021-05-07T20:37:27  <jeremyrubin> I guess during a reorg that's already an edge case where priors of miner misbehavior are higher
353 2021-05-07T20:38:19  <jeremyrubin> I think I've seen it proposed by someone that soft forks like taproot be preceded by a period where spending txns are invalid
354 2021-05-07T20:39:31  <sipa> that has been the case for every softfork as far as i a can remmeber
355 2021-05-07T20:40:55  <harding> jeremyrubin: I wouldn't be opposed to that, but it seems like overkill when software developers can just not release taproot-address-generating software until taproot is deployed, or they can gate address updates on a config flag or block height or whatever like being proposed here.
356 2021-05-07T20:41:19  <jeremyrubin> oh yeah i'm not advocating it, just discussing what I've seen discussed
357 2021-05-07T20:41:28  <jeremyrubin> let them eat cake
358 2021-05-07T20:42:27  <jeremyrubin> I think where it's relevant is if we were to ever have a softfork where something that could get into the mempool became invalid... but that's a huge mess so I hope not
359 2021-05-07T20:43:31  <gmaxwell> I don't think there is any advantage to making the spending temporarily invalid over simply enforcing the rule earlier.
360 2021-05-07T20:44:19  <gmaxwell> not even in the case where a softfork is excluding previously policy-permitted txn.
361 2021-05-07T20:45:06  <jeremyrubin> exlcuding previously policy permitted stuff feels a lot like stealing money
362 2021-05-07T20:45:06  <gmaxwell> jeremyrubin: prior softforks have made invalid recently-policy-permitted txn, fwiw.  The DER encoding changes were one such example.
363 2021-05-07T20:45:34  <gmaxwell> If you speak so generally you'll tend to say stuff thats just wrong.
364 2021-05-07T20:45:48  <jeremyrubin> gmaxwell: that is a thin line -- those are at least re-encodable right?
365 2021-05-07T20:45:51  <gmaxwell> There isn't any real basis to make that stement for der encoding changes, for example.
366 2021-05-07T20:46:17  <gmaxwell> jeremyrubin: in some sense _ever_ softfork breaks your rule, because policy restrictions didn't extend back to day one.
367 2021-05-07T20:46:22  <gmaxwell> er _every_.
368 2021-05-07T20:46:27  <jeremyrubin> Hmm actually no they aren't reencodable
369 2021-05-07T20:46:35  <gmaxwell> And have changed structure a few times.
370 2021-05-07T20:46:46  <jeremyrubin> gmaxwell: sure, I'll exclude some stone-age stuff
371 2021-05-07T20:46:52  <gmaxwell> jeremyrubin: yes they are unless you've intentionally done something moronic with OP_SIZE or comparisons. :P
372 2021-05-07T20:46:57  <jeremyrubin> I think generally we should be very careful with it
373 2021-05-07T20:47:06  <gmaxwell> Sure. Not news to anyone else.
374 2021-05-07T20:47:20  <jeremyrubin> Even DER encodings would break e.g. things which are presigneds sitting somewhere with more than 1 hop\
375 2021-05-07T20:47:28  <gmaxwell> That is why stuff explicit policy carveouts for future use even exist at all.
376 2021-05-07T20:47:33  <jeremyrubin> because re-encoding would break the 2nd presign
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378 2021-05-07T20:47:52  <sipa> at least with segwit versioning, and taproot leaf versioning + op_success, there is generally no need for changing policy before introducing new (script) functionality
379 2021-05-07T20:47:54  <gmaxwell> jeremyrubin: yes but anyone could break the chain regardless.
380 2021-05-07T20:48:24  <jeremyrubin> that's a good point, malleability?
381 2021-05-07T20:48:27  <gmaxwell> jeremyrubin: and malliation attacks on the network used to be a thing that actually happened.
382 2021-05-07T20:49:10  <gmaxwell> Unclear why they stopped, other than maybe just that they failed to drop the bitcoin price.
383 2021-05-07T20:49:38  <gmaxwell> (well some stopped because they were performed by non-miners, but some were miner performed)
384 2021-05-07T20:50:48  <gmaxwell> In any case, indeed, one must be careful when adding new rules.  The specific forwards-compat policy carefouts (like NOPs, segwit versions, OP_SUCCESS) exists to make those as easy and safe as possible.  But sometimes, e.g. in the case of bug fixes, it may not be possible to use those mechenisms.
385 2021-05-07T20:51:13  <sipa> ah, NOPs too, of course
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387 2021-05-07T20:51:52  <gmaxwell> Fortunately "the rule stops people from triggerign a weird bug" itself starts off with relatively low risk.
388 2021-05-07T20:52:26  <roconnor> Do we relay taproot spends with an annex? ...  I mean other than the fact that we don't relay taproot spends at all?
389 2021-05-07T20:52:30  <gmaxwell> And setting something policy denyed well in advance makes things safer.
390 2021-05-07T20:52:39  <sipa> roconnor: no, those are nonstandard
391 2021-05-07T20:52:40  <jeremyrubin> roconnor: I think it's discouraged policy?
392 2021-05-07T20:52:45  <roconnor> ok
393 2021-05-07T20:53:49  <gmaxwell> In general, nothing without consensus meaning should get relayed-- without meaning there is no reason to set it... so the only reason it has for existing is to get assigned consensus meaning in the future. :P
394 2021-05-07T20:54:25  <gmaxwell> Though some non-standard things are more obviously intended for future compat than others.
395 2021-05-07T20:55:14  <gmaxwell> If you do something stupid with OP_SUCCESS or future segwit versions, well you get what you deserve for sure.
396 2021-05-07T20:55:29  <gmaxwell> (or the NOPs)
397 2021-05-07T20:56:34  <sipa> i think the insight here has been to construct things in a way such that so-far-unspecified features result in being equivalent to OP_TRUE at the consensus level, so that it is unambiguous the feature is useless before that point
398 2021-05-07T20:57:15  <gmaxwell> yeah thats the OP_SUCCESS insight, particularly the fact that it first scans the script for _ANY_ use of them, so it doesn't matter where you put them.
399 2021-05-07T20:58:13  <gmaxwell> OP_NOPs have the misfortune that you can stick them someplace in an otherwise working script and kaboom your funds are suddely frozen aftre two years of succesfully using the script.
400 2021-05-07T20:59:09  <jeremyrubin> is that true for "well behaved" NOP upgrades?
401 2021-05-07T20:59:20  <gmaxwell> jeremyrubin: I'm glad we've never had to go the route but it would be possible to make consensus rules depend on the nheight of the output.
402 2021-05-07T20:59:53  <gmaxwell> jeremyrubin: it's not a property of the NOP upgrade, it's a property of the sufficiently advanced idiot using one before it has a consensus meaning.
403 2021-05-07T21:00:18  <jeremyrubin> Well I just mean if it's OP_IF ... NOP OP_ELSE <sane thing> OP_ENDIF
404 2021-05-07T21:00:23  <jeremyrubin> sane thing will keep on working
405 2021-05-07T21:00:29  <jeremyrubin> even if it is NOP and not SUCCESSX
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407 2021-05-07T21:01:03  <gmaxwell> but then the nop likely served no purpose, since the script sig decided if it ever got executed at all.
408 2021-05-07T21:01:23  <jeremyrubin> gmaxwell: even that is limited value since things like LN have multiple output hops precommitted
409 2021-05-07T21:01:26  <gmaxwell> and as I said, that isn't a property of the upgrade-- it's a property of the user.
410 2021-05-07T21:02:22  <jeremyrubin> well you claimed that it would break an otherwise working script, but it's ultimately policy of discouraging that protects successx and NOP today
411 2021-05-07T21:02:30  <jeremyrubin> successx is just more agrressive about it?
412 2021-05-07T21:02:50  <gmaxwell> I claimed what would break an otherwise working script?
413 2021-05-07T21:03:13  <jeremyrubin> Yes, so the script wouldn't work (via policy / discouraged nops) if it executes..
414 2021-05-07T21:03:40  <jeremyrubin> Unless it's a "aggressive NOP" that has odd semantics
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416 2021-05-07T21:03:50  <jeremyrubin> (which is what successx is designed to enable?)
417 2021-05-07T21:03:55  <gmaxwell> I don't agree.
418 2021-05-07T21:04:23  <jeremyrubin> I just can't think of an example of something that would not be rejected by policy before the SF if it's a typical NOP upgrade
419 2021-05-07T21:04:36  <jeremyrubin> if it doesn't execute it has no effect
420 2021-05-07T21:04:45  <jeremyrubin> Counterexample?
421 2021-05-07T21:05:28  <gmaxwell> I see where your confusion comes from.  There wouldn't be because we intentionally created policy to protect upgrades.  But policy is a rather weak protection some miners bypass it, for example. (f2pool does, or at least has in the past).
422 2021-05-07T21:05:47  <gmaxwell> OP_SUCCESS is anti-footgun even without policy protecting it.
423 2021-05-07T21:06:11  *** jungly <jungly!~jungly@host-79-53-186-48.retail.telecomitalia.it> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
424 2021-05-07T21:06:17  <jeremyrubin> Just in terms of what it implies to the user?
425 2021-05-07T21:06:29  <jeremyrubin> Because f2pool can ignore policy on OPSUCCESSX too
426 2021-05-07T21:07:35  <jeremyrubin> I don't mean to question that there is a benefit for safety, I just still don't quite see it
427 2021-05-07T21:07:40  <jeremyrubin> and I'd like to!
428 2021-05-07T21:08:00  <jeremyrubin> (I do see a benefit for flexibility though of course)
429 2021-05-07T21:08:02  <gmaxwell> Say litecoin had some  OP_INPUT_WASNT_CREATED_IN_THE_SAME_BLOCK  which it used as OP_NOP3.    Then some exchange was using that on litecoin and starts using it on bitcoin, and f2pool is mining it.  It's harmless-- doesn't do anything.  Over the next year they assign 10,000 BTC to those outputs.
430 2021-05-07T21:08:33  <gmaxwell> then Bitcoin deploys a softfork that turns OP_NOP3 into some new relative timelock.  Boom all those outputs become forever unspendable and they lose 10,000 BTC.
431 2021-05-07T21:09:37  <gmaxwell> Now, contrast this with OP_SUCCESS.  If they accidentally misuse an OP_SUCCESS in this manner, their coin on their first test transaction is just immediately (and probably automatically) stolen.
432 2021-05-07T21:10:13  <gmaxwell> They'd have no incentive to try to block a OP_NOP3 softfork upgrade because they were depending on the do-nothing behavior.  ... because any use of an undefined OP_SUCCESS just gives away the coins.
433 2021-05-07T21:11:22  <gmaxwell> The OP_SUCCESS also makes it much easier to analyize if the change is safe, because by definition the old rules just accept anything that has the OP_SUCCESS anywhere in it.
434 2021-05-07T21:11:31  <jeremyrubin> I kinda see what you're saying, but I'd point out that both success and nop have local policy guarding things... so your own node should help you bounce the txn and so should the network. so it's really the case where you directly connect to those miners who ignore policy
435 2021-05-07T21:11:57  <jeremyrubin> I now understand what you see, but it seems (to me) a far fetched case that someone would discover a defect this way
436 2021-05-07T21:12:12  <gmaxwell> What node? Our superior idiot in this example has a team of Ruby experts that coded their own wallet.
437 2021-05-07T21:12:27  <gmaxwell> If they weren't idiots to begin with they wouldn't have had a non-consensus defined operation in their script at all. :P
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439 2021-05-07T21:13:19  <jeremyrubin> yeah it's just too many hops of idiocy for me to care, but I admire your kind heart
440 2021-05-07T21:13:22  <gmaxwell> Hm? we've had issues with people inserting meaningless crap in transactions before... part of the origin of policy protection is to protect the ability to use tx fields for upgrades so that broken software doesn't degrade it.
441 2021-05-07T21:16:47  <sipa> it doesn't even need to be an unintentional thing like altcoin behavior accidentally being used on the wrong chain
442 2021-05-07T21:17:17  <sipa> e.g. certain data-stuffing-in-transaction methods could also interfere with future upgrades, for example
443 2021-05-07T21:18:14  <jeremyrubin> yeah; for the subsidy txs stuff I had to check carefully that OP_VER outputs aren't a thing
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445 2021-05-07T21:20:21  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #21882: build: Fix undefined reference to __mulodi4 (master...210507-fuzz32) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21882
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447 2021-05-07T21:21:45  <gmaxwell> there was a time when libbitcoin was spewing uninitilized memory in the nversion field of transactions.
448 2021-05-07T21:21:46  <conman> gmaxwell: thanks, went to bed so couldn't respond immediately, but appreciate your response
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450 2021-05-07T21:21:59  <gmaxwell> conman: No problem!
451 2021-05-07T21:22:52  <conman> can I ask about coinbaseaux whilst I'm at it? Nothing seems to actually be coming from there any more
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453 2021-05-07T21:23:59  <conman> are there any plans for any scriptsig strings to come from there or can I assume it will be blank with the current bitcoin core?
454 2021-05-07T21:24:29  <luke-jr> welcome to 2012 https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0022.mediawiki
455 2021-05-07T21:24:43  <phantomcircuit> conman, i don't think coinbaseaux has been used in ages
456 2021-05-07T21:25:28  <phantomcircuit> that was the very old way of signaling for a soft fork
457 2021-05-07T21:25:37  <gmaxwell> conman: I *think* using tags in coinbaseaux isn't likely to be used in the future because there have been mining devices that are fairly particular about the structure of the coinbase scriptsig, unfortunately. (e.g. expect to be able to fuzz specific byte offsets via an fpga/asic).
458 2021-05-07T21:26:05  <gmaxwell> If it were used again there would probably be some huge circus of figuring out which devices/firmware it's incompatible with. :(
459 2021-05-07T21:26:21  <gmaxwell> (/pool software, but at least that is fixable)
460 2021-05-07T21:29:36  <conman> I understand it's not been used, but it's still there and in the documentation as a requirement
461 2021-05-07T21:29:57  <conman> but thanks, what I needed was whether it would ever be used again
462 2021-05-07T21:30:25  <sipa> conman: i think it's there because of the protocol having been envisioned to be used for pool-hasher communication too
463 2021-05-07T21:30:39  <conman> nod
464 2021-05-07T21:30:48  <luke-jr> it's documented as NOT required..
465 2021-05-07T21:31:09  <sipa> luke-jr: well, yes, but if it's present, it has to be obeyed?
466 2021-05-07T21:31:20  <sipa> i guess it says "SHOULD"
467 2021-05-07T21:31:33  <luke-jr> sipa: right
468 2021-05-07T21:31:39  <conman> oh is he talking? sorry he's been on ignore for a decade
469 2021-05-07T21:31:43  <sipa> anyway, i agree it's unlikely that bitcoin core would ever be in a position where it needs to set that field
470 2021-05-07T21:31:46  <conman> perhaps it's time to unignore him
471 2021-05-07T21:31:51  <conman> sipa: thanks
472 2021-05-07T21:32:11  <phantomcircuit> sipa, as gmaxwell said i don't even think it can be set without significant chaos
473 2021-05-07T21:32:40  <gmaxwell> conman: unfortunately bitcoin exposes far too much consensus innards to edge devices, it's a big problem... because it creates interactions with edge devices that ought not exist.
474 2021-05-07T21:32:41  <sipa> phantomcircuit: agree
475 2021-05-07T21:33:02  <conman> gmaxwell: gotcha
476 2021-05-07T21:33:05  <luke-jr> conman: I was just pointing out it's been documented explicitly as *not* required since 2012 https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0022.mediawiki
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479 2021-05-07T21:35:46  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jaanauati opened pull request #21883: doc: remove 'experimental' word. (master...patch-1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21883
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482 2021-05-07T22:04:45  <gmaxwell> heh. the see other PRs linked in the reply to that actually form a loop.
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508 2021-05-07T23:45:34  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #21883: doc: remove 'experimental' word. (master...patch-1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21883
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