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 15 2021-08-16T03:00:01  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/502d22ceed1f...11c7d001a9c3
 16 2021-08-16T03:00:01  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 7d95777 Carl Dong: builder-keys: Add dongcarl
 17 2021-08-16T03:00:01  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 11c7d00 fanquake: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#22700: builder-keys: Add dongcarl
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 20 2021-08-16T03:00:19  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #22700: builder-keys: Add dongcarl (master...2021-08-add-dongcarl-builder) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/22700
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 25 2021-08-16T03:24:48  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 4 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/11c7d001a9c3...820129aee9fd
 26 2021-08-16T03:24:48  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2de222c Andrew Chow: wallet: Use GetSelectionAmount for target value calculations
 27 2021-08-16T03:24:48  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master d926232 Andrew Chow: wallet: Assert that enough was selected to cover the fees
 28 2021-08-16T03:24:48  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 92885c4 Andrew Chow: test: Test for ApproximateBestSubset edge case with too little fees
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 31 2021-08-16T03:25:05  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #22686: wallet: Use GetSelectionAmount in ApproximateBestSubset (master...use-getselectionvalue) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/22686
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 41 2021-08-16T04:17:49  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/820129aee9fd...3facf0a8ae99
 42 2021-08-16T04:17:49  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 5100dee Carl Dong: clientversion: No suffix #if CLIENT_VERSION_IS_RELEASE
 43 2021-08-16T04:17:49  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 3facf0a fanquake: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#22685: clientversion: No suffix #if CLIENT_VERSION_I...
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 46 2021-08-16T04:18:06  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #22685: clientversion: No suffix #if CLIENT_VERSION_IS_RELEASE (master...2021-08-clientversion-is-cursed) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/22685
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 53 2021-08-16T04:38:25  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sizeofvoid opened pull request #22713: Fix build with Boost 1.77.0 (master...boost-1770) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/22713
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539 2021-08-16T06:27:16  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #22715: wallet: use `FormatFullVersion()` & `PACKAGE_NAME` in dumpwallet (master...rpcdump_use_formatfullversion) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/22715
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572 2021-08-16T08:49:27  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/3facf0a8ae99...42b00a37580a
573 2021-08-16T08:49:27  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa77183 MarcoFalke: fuzz: Avoid OOM in system fuzz target
574 2021-08-16T08:49:27  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 42b00a3 MarcoFalke: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#22649: fuzz: Avoid OOM in system fuzz target
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577 2021-08-16T08:50:02  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #22649: fuzz: Avoid OOM in system fuzz target (master...2108-fuzzSystemOOM) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/22649
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588 2021-08-16T09:58:21  <prayank> luke-jr: CI is failing for #22693
589 2021-08-16T09:58:22  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/22693 | RPC/Wallet: Add "use_txids" to output of getaddressinfo by luke-jr · Pull Request #22693 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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591 2021-08-16T10:28:24  <laanwj> PSA: 0.21.2rc1 binaries up https://bitcoincore.org/bin/bitcoin-core-0.21.2/test.rc1/
592 2021-08-16T10:28:37  <fanquake> 🚀
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595 2021-08-16T10:44:29  <jonatack> congrats!
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605 2021-08-16T12:28:25  <prayank> I was reading the comments in this issue and wanted to know if someone has written any blog post or detailed answer somewhere that explains eviction process followed by Bitcoin Core.
606 2021-08-16T12:28:34  <prayank> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/22716
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608 2021-08-16T12:31:39  <prayank> Another question: vasild mentioned in this comment that onlynet=ipv4 with Tor proxy is contradictory. Is it possible that someone wants to have only ipv4 nodes for outgoing but use Tor proxy for making these connections?
609 2021-08-16T12:31:45  <prayank> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/22651#issuecomment-895069245
610 2021-08-16T12:34:46  <laanwj> right: using a proxy is independent from which network classes you want to connect to
611 2021-08-16T12:35:23  <laanwj> this is why the network is called *onion*, it's only about .onions, it's perfectly valid to want to use tor to connect to ipv4 only
612 2021-08-16T12:35:59  <laanwj> people keep confusing this, in other places as well
613 2021-08-16T12:39:31  <prayank> laanwj: Thanks. That clears my doubt I had in second question.
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617 2021-08-16T13:02:42  <vasild> prayank: laanwj: ok, specifying onlynet=ipv4 with "a proxy to connect to *.onion addresses" is contradictory (because *.onion addresses are not ipv4 so we would not be connecting to them). But specifying an outgoing socks5 proxy for reaching ipv4 address is not contradictory, it may as well be some normal (non-tor) socks5 proxy required to be used in some certain network environments.
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619 2021-08-16T13:04:21  <vasild> so "onlynet=ipv4 onion=..." is contradictory, but "onlynet=ipv4 proxy=..." is not. So far, so good. Now... onion= defaults to proxy= :-X
620 2021-08-16T13:04:52  <sipa> vasild: not *exactly*; with onlynet=ipv4 you can still specify .onions in -connect or addnode i believe
621 2021-08-16T13:04:57  <sipa> but it's very close
622 2021-08-16T13:05:23  <vasild> oh, well, that too :)
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624 2021-08-16T13:07:34  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jamesob closed pull request #22699: doc: add libboost-thread-dev to build-unix (master...2021-08-build-unix-boost-thread) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/22699
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626 2021-08-16T13:12:16  <prayank> I think we should remove "only" from `onlynet` to reduce confusion around these options. Maybe `net_out` if underscores are okay.
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630 2021-08-16T13:14:46  <laanwj> yes, the option name is confusing; as for underscores, iirc there are no option names with any kind of separator right now, probably better to keep it that way (underscores work really badly with - options)
631 2021-08-16T13:15:06  <jonatack> I'm not sure how config options can be changed without breaking user space. Even if only to rename them.  Is it really worth it, etc.
632 2021-08-16T13:15:15  <laanwj> yeah...
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634 2021-08-16T13:16:05  <jonatack> Right, I recall we had an irc discussion about config options naming some time ago, and the consensus was to continue with no separators
635 2021-08-16T13:16:47  <prayank> jonatack: I have seen few other users confused about this option. So I am assuming the option is already not used correctly by many. So it's already broken.
636 2021-08-16T13:17:22  <jonatack> prayank: the issue is about breaking user space for those who do use them, not for those who don't
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638 2021-08-16T13:18:58  <prayank> If 100 people are using this option. I am assuming 30 are not using it correctly or unaware of issues.
639 2021-08-16T13:19:45  <jonatack> in any case, i proposed some doc changes in #22648 to clarify the use of -onlynet
640 2021-08-16T13:19:47  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/22648 | doc, test: improve i2p/tor docs and i2p reachable unit tests by jonatack · Pull Request #22648 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
641 2021-08-16T13:19:54  <jonatack> in both tor.md and i2p.md
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643 2021-08-16T13:22:56  <prayank> Yes I have ACKed it with couple of nits. Hopefully docs should help users understand this option.
644 2021-08-16T13:25:49  <jonatack> prayank: thanks! i'll look at the feedback.  it also depends on what we do with  #22651.
645 2021-08-16T13:25:51  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/22651 | tor: respect non-onion -onlynet= for outgoing Tor connections by vasild · Pull Request #22651 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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652 2021-08-16T13:49:11  <laanwj> bitcoin-cli prints "timeout on transient error: ..." when the RPC port is not open, this is slightly confusing (though it does appropriately print a message about bitcoind not running afterwards)
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668 2021-08-16T16:03:15  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #22718: doc: Add missing PR 16333 release note (master...2108-docRel) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/22718
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671 2021-08-16T16:16:56  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/42b00a37580a...b935abb9eb2e
672 2021-08-16T16:16:56  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master e2ff385 Sebastian Falbesoner: test: check for invalid `-prune` parameters
673 2021-08-16T16:16:56  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master b935abb MarcoFalke: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#22684: test: check for invalid `-prune` parameters
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675 2021-08-16T16:17:04  *** lkqwejhhgasdjhgn <lkqwejhhgasdjhgn!~kljkljklk@p200300d46f05b80032ea23541467908d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de> has quit IRC (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
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677 2021-08-16T16:26:30  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #22684: test: check for invalid `-prune` parameters (master...202108-test-check_invalid_prune_parameters) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/22684
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686 2021-08-16T16:57:29  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto closed pull request #19882: depends: Export variables from make to environment explicitly (master...200905-build) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19882
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689 2021-08-16T17:24:53  <BlueMatt> the standardization of any segwit output script is less useful for lightning and upgradability of similar systems than it looks because we don't know today what the dust limit will be on these outputs in the future
690 2021-08-16T17:25:43  <BlueMatt> would it be reasonable to commit(-ish) to a fixed dust limit based on today's calculation for future segwit output types (and, relatedly, it apepars the dust limits were not changed for taproot, is that on purpose or should we consider it a feature not a bug :)
691 2021-08-16T17:25:46  <BlueMatt> cc sipa
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697 2021-08-16T17:47:30  <michaelfolkson> BlueMatt: I'm not sure what a commit(-ish)ment looks like or who could provide it. I'd guess (like a number of things in this space) that it would only change if it became absurd and hence was easier to get consensus on changing it
698 2021-08-16T17:49:31  <sipa> BlueMatt: i think it's an oversight, i hadn't really thought about this
699 2021-08-16T17:50:04  <BlueMatt> sipa: I mean obviously I'd kinda prefer we not change it, or change it ever again for segwit outputs, at least from a lightning perspective, but its an interesting question.
700 2021-08-16T17:50:16  <BlueMatt> sipa: I wonder if maybe it makes sense to bump it in a one-time change and then leave it?
701 2021-08-16T17:50:43  <BlueMatt> like, set it to something calculated on 5 sat/vbyte or 10 sat/vbyte instead of 3, so that it doesn't float down to 1 if future versions require larger witnesses?
702 2021-08-16T17:50:56  <sipa> BlueMatt: i mean, it's per node configurable even - i'm not sure the current approach maps well to a well-defined promise
703 2021-08-16T17:51:02  <sipa> as a config settin
704 2021-08-16T17:51:22  <BlueMatt> I mean in practice no one overrides that, and also in practice whether we like it or not its an important security metric for lightning nodes.
705 2021-08-16T17:51:43  <BlueMatt> whether we like it or not, lightning is very sensitive to transaction propagation.
706 2021-08-16T17:51:44  <sipa> i'm very uncomfortable with anything relying on it being predictable tbh
707 2021-08-16T17:51:58  <BlueMatt> then suggest an entirely different L2 system :p
708 2021-08-16T17:52:03  <BlueMatt> and novel one
709 2021-08-16T17:53:00  <BlueMatt> the standardness rules are now a security assumption for large amounts of money, even though they were never really intended to be that explicit.
710 2021-08-16T17:53:09  <sipa> that's beyond scary to me
711 2021-08-16T17:53:38  <BlueMatt> well I dont think think "sorry, you shouldn't use lightning, we cant do anything for it" is an acceptable answer
712 2021-08-16T17:53:39  <sipa> can't you just have it loudly complain to users when something doesn't seem to confirm, yelling that they should be broadcasting it through smoke signals or so
713 2021-08-16T17:54:01  <sipa> sorry, very tired, i'm not very useful to discuss things right now
714 2021-08-16T17:54:02  <BlueMatt> most users dont monitor their node actively
715 2021-08-16T17:54:29  <BlueMatt> and even if they did, what do you tell them? call your local mining pool? I mean I dunno if any would respond lol
716 2021-08-16T17:54:48  <sipa> i don't have an answer
717 2021-08-16T17:55:21  <BlueMatt> well then back to the specific initial question - should we bump/drop the dust threshold for taproot outputs
718 2021-08-16T17:55:41  <BlueMatt> and if so, can we just bump it once and set it for segwit outputs with a "we hope to keep this in the future metric
719 2021-08-16T17:55:53  <sipa> i'm ok with that
720 2021-08-16T17:56:05  <BlueMatt> for future segwit versions, that is
721 2021-08-16T17:56:35  <sipa> key path spending for p2tr outputs is probably a very reasonable lower bound of spending weight
722 2021-08-16T17:57:02  <BlueMatt> right, so probably use that weight and a slightly higher dust fee rate and move on?
723 2021-08-16T17:57:24  <BlueMatt> cause 3 is quite low, though changing for existing segwit stuff is probably unreasonably high change for the ecosystem
724 2021-08-16T18:00:24  <sipa> just reducing the spending weight calculation for p2tr and other witness versions seems like something that could reasonably be called a bugfix
725 2021-08-16T18:01:20  <sipa> anything beyond, including some plan on a fixed policy (yuck, hardcoded feerates :s). sounds like it'd need a wider discussion
726 2021-08-16T18:01:56  <BlueMatt> sure, but I dunno if "reduce dust threshold" is a good thing a-priori. eg 3 sat/vbyte is a quite-low feerate in a modern context, so a-priori it may make sense to increase not decrease. more to the point - if we're talking about dust thresholds for *future* segwit versions, I don't know that we want to go for a lower-bound, more like "reasonable upper-bound"
727 2021-08-16T18:06:01  <harding> LN doesn't need to use the same dust limit Bitcoin Core does.  Y'all can choose to treat as dust outputs that would cost more to spend than they're worth at 20 s/b, and so be insulated against any reasonable change in Bitcoin Core (especially since changes in Bitcoin Core should take a long time to become predominant across relay and mining).
728 2021-08-16T18:06:10  *** sipsorcery <sipsorcery!~sipsorcer@2a02:8084:6180:500::12b> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
729 2021-08-16T18:06:44  <BlueMatt> true, but you *really* dont want a low dust threshold in lightning, there's already more than enough issues with funds loss due to burning-to-dust
730 2021-08-16T18:06:51  <BlueMatt> errr, high dust threshold
731 2021-08-16T18:11:25  <harding> Sure, but if feerates increase significantly (and that certainly seems like a plausible scenario), those problems are going to need to be dealt with anyway.  I don't think we should be forcing anyone to deal with those problems now, but I also kinda feel like some of the attention on the dust limit problem should be focused on improving LN rather than changing Bitcoin Core.
732 2021-08-16T18:18:32  <BlueMatt> well its somewhat of a tradeoff in LN - you can just include dust outputs with no desire to ever claim them, or at least only maybe claim them, which is probably better for ln than skipping those outputs
733 2021-08-16T18:18:45  <BlueMatt> but of course that's massively anti-social cause you just create outputs on chain you'll never claim
734 2021-08-16T18:18:56  <BlueMatt> which is kinda the reason for the dust limit in core to begin with - to prevent stupid anti-social behavior like that.
735 2021-08-16T18:19:12  <BlueMatt> so if lightning "has to deal with it" you get anti-social outcomes, probably.
736 2021-08-16T18:23:19  <harding> I meant "deal with it" in the sense of implementing probabalistic payments or bundling tiny payments into a pre-funded output that gets donated to charity or some other solution.
737 2021-08-16T18:24:28  <BlueMatt> right, could bundle "below dust" outputs to charity instead of sending to miners.
738 2021-08-16T18:24:33  <BlueMatt> or just burn them with OP_RETURN
739 2021-08-16T18:24:44  <BlueMatt> "charity" of reducing total bitcoin supply :)
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741 2021-08-16T18:27:46  <BlueMatt> of course even that doesn't "solve" the issue without some kind of commonly agreed upon lower-bound
742 2021-08-16T18:27:52  <harding> Yeah.  We could also have a very low dust limit for pay to OP_TRUE, since miners will be able to remove those from the UTXO set during future periods of low prevailing feerates.
743 2021-08-16T18:27:56  <BlueMatt> cause lightning nodes have to enforce the rules on *each other*
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745 2021-08-16T18:29:59  <BlueMatt> no, OP_TRUE does not solve the issue
746 2021-08-16T18:30:15  <BlueMatt> right now lightning with a counterparty who is, or is collaborating with a miner, is really really not ok
747 2021-08-16T18:30:43  <harding> I don't think it's any worse than paying to fees?
748 2021-08-16T18:31:06  <BlueMatt> right, its the *same* as paying to fees, but the problem right now is precisely that paying to fees is not ok :p
749 2021-08-16T18:31:30  <harding> It might be better in the sense that, for very low values, it's not economical for the current miner to claim it, so it's pay to future miner.
750 2021-08-16T18:32:14  <BlueMatt> sure, its more social, but it doesn't solve the issue lightning has today
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752 2021-08-16T18:32:43  <harding> Sure, but if that's the problem, someone should be working on probabalistic payments.  That certainly wants new opcodes, which is why it's probably better someone start working on it sooner.
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756 2021-08-16T18:33:44  <BlueMatt> there are other shorter-term changes we can make to address the issues without prob payments, but everything around the dust limit sucks, precisely cause we can't get some reasonable lower-bound that ensures broadcastability
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758 2021-08-16T18:37:40  <harding> I mean, you do have a reasonable lower bound---the current bound, which should take at least months to change in all non-emergency scenarios (and which seems unlikely to ever require an emergency change).
759 2021-08-16T18:38:08  <BlueMatt> sadly we need one for non-v0 segwit outputs as well
760 2021-08-16T18:38:27  <BlueMatt> which was my original question here - what is a reasonable lowerbound for non-v0 segwit outputs
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762 2021-08-16T18:38:43  <harding> And it should be easy for any future changes to just gate that with a time delay, e.g. if (time > x) { new_dust_limit } else { old_dust_limit }
763 2021-08-16T18:39:05  <BlueMatt> sure, but that kind of thing requires at least a loose commitment from bitcoin core to do dust limit changes in a way that is compatible with that :p
764 2021-08-16T18:39:33  <BlueMatt> which, when the response to questions like this is "lol lightning shouldnt rely on dust limit being X", then I dont feel like we have that
765 2021-08-16T18:40:03  <harding> Sure, but I think Bitcoin Core's open development process has a pretty strong commitment to listening to LN devs and other ecosystem devs, so I think that's implicitly covered
766 2021-08-16T18:40:18  <harding> Sorry.
767 2021-08-16T18:41:11  <BlueMatt> that's what I'd generally expect, but i dunno many/any lightning devs who follow bitcoin core closely enough to ensure that, which is part of the reason for me flagging now that non-v0 segwit output dust limit *also* falls under the "plz notify lightning devs and give us time to adapt before you change this" category
768 2021-08-16T18:41:26  <BlueMatt> because it isn't trivially obvious for core devs that it would fall into that category, I'd think
769 2021-08-16T18:42:54  <harding> That's one of the reasons we publish "notable merged PRs" in the Optech newsletter each week.  We've covered every standardness change in the past three years, so any LN devs who read the newsletter should be made aware of any changes well before they get released, and can then go and ask for reverts or alterations.
770 2021-08-16T18:44:00  <harding> I know someone reading about the merge of disabling BIP37 by default ended up in the discussion that got it continued for an extra release, so that kind of communication works at least some times.
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776 2021-08-16T19:08:21  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/b935abb9eb2e...8a40b227a61b
777 2021-08-16T19:08:21  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa76ebd MarcoFalke: doc: Add missing PR 16333 release note
778 2021-08-16T19:08:21  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 8a40b22 MarcoFalke: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#22718: doc: Add missing PR 16333 release note
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781 2021-08-16T19:08:38  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #22718: doc: Add missing PR 16333 release note (master...2108-docRel) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/22718
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786 2021-08-16T19:23:49  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jonatack closed pull request #22586: p2p: fix ubsan implicit conversion error in CSubNet::ToString() (master...fix-netaddress-implicit-signed-integer-truncation) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/22586
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