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 182021-10-07T00:40:25  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 4 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/577b0ffd2ea4...a68de12c0ebf
 192021-10-07T00:40:25  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 5e42f2a Hennadii Stepanov: build: Make <QtBaseDir> default name Qt and VS versions agnostic
 202021-10-07T00:40:25  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master c4139f0 Hennadii Stepanov: doc: Replace a link to Qt precompiled binaries with compile instructions
 212021-10-07T00:40:25  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 6bc4398 Hennadii Stepanov: doc: Suggest using jom instead of nmake
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 242021-10-07T00:40:42  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #22890: doc: Replace a link to Qt precompiled binaries with compile instructions (master...210904-msvc) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/22890
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 262021-10-07T00:42:09  <fanquake> Another step towards removing bdb, is no-longer failing to configure when we don't have it, so that people stop installing it: #23168
 272021-10-07T00:42:11  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/23168 | build: no-longer fail default configure if BDB isnt available by fanquake · Pull Request #23168 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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 422021-10-07T01:11:37  <sipa> fanquake: it's like it's keeping itself alive
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 582021-10-07T01:51:12  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] theStack opened pull request #23211: refactor: move `update_*` structs from txmempool.h to .cpp file (master...202110-refactor-various_mempool_cleanups) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23211
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1312021-10-07T04:36:33  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/a68de12c0ebf...0500a22d8c78
1322021-10-07T04:36:33  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fab360a MarcoFalke: util: Add mremap syscall to AllowAddressSpaceAccess
1332021-10-07T04:36:33  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 0500a22 fanquake: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#23208: util: Add mremap syscall to AllowAddressSpace...
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1362021-10-07T04:36:48  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #23208: util: Add mremap syscall to AllowAddressSpaceAccess (master...2110-syscall) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23208
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1582021-10-07T05:29:02  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/0500a22d8c78...f8911de619d4
1592021-10-07T05:29:02  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fafff13 MarcoFalke: doc: Extract FundTxDoc
1602021-10-07T05:29:02  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master f8911de fanquake: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#23172: doc: Extract FundTxDoc in rpcwallet
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1632021-10-07T05:29:18  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #23172: doc: Extract FundTxDoc in rpcwallet (master...2110-docRpcWallet) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23172
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1902021-10-07T06:22:40  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #23212: lint: enable mypy import checking (master...22844_fixedup) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23212
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1932021-10-07T06:22:57  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #22844: feature: enable mypy to run without --ignore-imports (master...josibake-fix-mypy-import-errors) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/22844
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2182021-10-07T07:10:30  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/f8911de619d4...b4437d7dfe23
2192021-10-07T07:10:30  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa2ac58 MarcoFalke: test: Replace satoshi_round with int() or Decimal()
2202021-10-07T07:10:30  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master b4437d7 MarcoFalke: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#23210: test: Replace satoshi_round with int() or Dec...
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2232021-10-07T07:10:47  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #23210: test: Replace satoshi_round with int() or Decimal() (master...2110-testRound) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23210
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2372021-10-07T08:00:29  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/b4437d7dfe23...c0b6c96eee7c
2382021-10-07T08:00:29  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 502f50d Jon Atack: Test transactions conflicted by double spend in listtransactions
2392021-10-07T08:00:29  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master c0b6c96 MarcoFalke: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#23146: Test transactions conflicted by double spend ...
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2422021-10-07T08:00:46  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #23146: Test transactions conflicted by double spend in listtransactions (master...test-txns-conflicted-by-double-spend-in-listtransactions) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23146
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2672021-10-07T09:00:17  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #23213: rest: Return error when header count is not integral (master...2110-restInt) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23213
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2782021-10-07T09:13:42  <bitcoin-git> [gui] promag opened pull request #448: qt: Add helper to load font (master...2021-10-font-helper) https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gui/pull/448
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2832021-10-07T09:15:01  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #23214: Replace stoul with ToIntegral in dbwrapper (master...2110-dbwInt) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23214
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2912021-10-07T09:31:16  <darosior> maintainers: #22539 looks close to be ready for merge
2922021-10-07T09:31:20  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/22539 | Re-include RBF replacement txs in fee estimation by darosior · Pull Request #22539 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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2952021-10-07T09:38:42  <laanwj> darosior: will take a look, thanks
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3092021-10-07T10:12:45  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #23215: ci: Add vcpkg downloads cache (master...211007-ci) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23215
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3122021-10-07T10:16:02  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #23216: clang-format: Set BraceWrapping:AfterControlStatement:MultiLine (master...2110-srcFormat) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23216
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3312021-10-07T11:08:05  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #23217: [DO NOT MERGE] ci: Test required resources for native Windows tasks (master...211007-mem) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23217
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3422021-10-07T11:31:07  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #23218: p2p: Use mocktime for ping timeout (master...2110-mockPingTime) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23218
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3522021-10-07T11:48:18  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 5 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/c0b6c96eee7c...6f0cbc75be76
3532021-10-07T11:48:18  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 06c5ce9 Antoine Poinsot: Re-include RBF replacement txs in fee estimation
3542021-10-07T11:48:18  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 053415b Antoine Poinsot: qa: split run_test into smaller parts
3552021-10-07T11:48:18  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 4556406 Antoine Poinsot: qa: test fee estimation with replacement transactions
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3582021-10-07T11:48:35  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #22539: Re-include RBF replacement txs in fee estimation (master...fee_est_rbf) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/22539
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3812021-10-07T12:39:50  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/6f0cbc75be76...6334ff7364e2
3822021-10-07T12:39:50  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 64085b3 W. J. van der Laan: util: Add __NR_copy_file_range syscall constant for sandbox
3832021-10-07T12:39:50  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master ac402e7 W. J. van der Laan: util: Conditionalize some syscalls in syscall name table
3842021-10-07T12:39:50  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 6334ff7 W. J. van der Laan: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#23196: util: Make syscall sandbox compilable with ke...
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3872021-10-07T12:40:07  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #23196: util: Make syscall sandbox compilable with kernel 4.4.0 (master...2021-10-syscall-sandbox2) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23196
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4012021-10-07T13:11:39  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jonatack opened pull request #23219: p2p: remove unneeded CNetAddr vector in LookupSubNet() and update/tidy up (master...LookupSubNet-todo-fix) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23219
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4072021-10-07T13:20:00  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #23220: ci: Reduce Windows memory for faster scheduling (master...211007-mem1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23220
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4172021-10-07T13:42:48  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/6334ff7364e2...991753e4d50e
4182021-10-07T13:42:48  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 429b493 Sebastian Falbesoner: test: introduce script_util helper for creating P2PK scripts
4192021-10-07T13:42:48  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 991753e W. J. van der Laan: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#23118: test: refactor: introduce `script_util` helpe...
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4222021-10-07T13:43:05  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #23118: test: refactor: introduce `script_util` helper for creating P2PK scripts (master...202109-test-add_helper_for_creating_p2pk_scripts) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23118
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5162021-10-07T17:18:42  <jaybny> ping
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5222021-10-07T17:31:31  <jaybny2> pong
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5452021-10-07T18:35:26  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jonatack opened pull request #23223: Add NoLockLoggingTestingSetup to test utilities, use in checkqueue_tests (master...alleviate-checkqueue-tests-contention-logging) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23223
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5542021-10-07T19:00:17  <laanwj> #startmeeting
5552021-10-07T19:00:47  <jeremyrubin> hi
5562021-10-07T19:00:51  <laanwj> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: achow101 _aj_ amiti ariard BlueMatt cfields Chris_Stewart_5 darosior digi_james dongcarl elichai2 emilengler fanquake fjahr gleb glozow gmaxwell gwillen hebasto instagibbs jamesob jarolrod jb55 jeremyrubin jl2012 jnewbery jonasschnelli jonatack jtimon kallewoof kanzure kvaciral laanwj lightlike luke-jr maaku marcofalke meshcollider michagogo moneyball morcos
5572021-10-07T19:00:53  <laanwj> nehan NicolasDorier paveljanik petertodd phantomcircuit promag provoostenator ryanofsky sdaftuar sipa vasild
5582021-10-07T19:00:56  <achow101> hi
5592021-10-07T19:01:00  <laanwj> no bot today, apparently
5602021-10-07T19:01:04  <michaelfolkson> hi
5612021-10-07T19:01:05  <darosior> hi
5622021-10-07T19:01:11  <jarolrod> Hi
5632021-10-07T19:01:13  <meshcollider> hi
5642021-10-07T19:01:19  <hebasto> hi
5652021-10-07T19:01:48  <kvaciral[m]> hi
5662021-10-07T19:01:59  <laanwj> doesn't look like any topics have been proposed for this week (use #proposedmeetingtopic to propose topics you want to discuss in the meeting)
5672021-10-07T19:02:01  <laanwj> any last minute ones?
5682021-10-07T19:02:39  <laanwj> i think we should cancel the IRC meeting next week due to the IRL coredev meeting
5692021-10-07T19:02:49  <jeremyrubin> disagree
5702021-10-07T19:03:10  <jeremyrubin> i'd like to move some things onto blockers
5712021-10-07T19:03:14  <jeremyrubin> err priority
5722021-10-07T19:03:26  <laanwj> well, i'm not going to chair it, feel free to meet anyway
5732021-10-07T19:03:33  <jeremyrubin> kk
5742021-10-07T19:03:54  <jeremyrubin> also won't be at IRL i think :(
5752021-10-07T19:04:04  <jeremyrubin> #topic high priority for review
5762021-10-07T19:04:08  <laanwj> eh,
5772021-10-07T19:04:20  <laanwj> please leave that to me
5782021-10-07T19:04:37  <jeremyrubin> laanwj: "well, i'm not going to chair it, feel free to meet anyway"
5792021-10-07T19:04:44  <laanwj> jeremyrubin: next week
5802021-10-07T19:04:44  <cfields> hi
5812021-10-07T19:04:58  * jeremyrubin slaps forehead
5822021-10-07T19:05:00  <laanwj> i'm here now why wouldn't i
5832021-10-07T19:05:02  <michaelfolkson> You can always request things are moved to blockers outside an actual meeting right laanwj?
5842021-10-07T19:05:06  <jonatack> hi
5852021-10-07T19:05:08  <cfields> hehe
5862021-10-07T19:05:09  <laanwj> michaelfolkson: yes, sure
5872021-10-07T19:05:20  <michaelfolkson> Wouldn't need a meeting next week if that is all jeremyrubin wants to do
5882021-10-07T19:05:21  <laanwj> anyhow, yes, high priority for review
5892021-10-07T19:05:24  <jeremyrubin> sorry for the read-o, i thought you were saying cancel right now
5902021-10-07T19:05:40  <laanwj> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8 9 blockers, 2 chasing concept ACK
5912021-10-07T19:06:14  <laanwj> anything to add/remove or that is almost ready for merge?
5922021-10-07T19:06:25  <fjahr> hi
5932021-10-07T19:06:40  <darosior> #22539 can be removed now it was merged (thanks laanwj for looking at it today btw)
5942021-10-07T19:06:42  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/22539 | Re-include RBF replacement txs in fee estimation by darosior · Pull Request #22539 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
5952021-10-07T19:06:52  <michaelfolkson> #22950 is merged too
5962021-10-07T19:06:54  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/22950 | [p2p] Pimpl AddrMan to abstract implementation details by amitiuttarwar · Pull Request #22950 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
5972021-10-07T19:07:02  <lightlike> 22950 and 20487 were also merged
5982021-10-07T19:07:37  <jeremyrubin> i'd like to put #21702 as my high priority -- up to you on removing the other one currently my priority
5992021-10-07T19:07:39  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21702 | Implement BIP-119 Validation (CheckTemplateVerify) by JeremyRubin · Pull Request #21702 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
6002021-10-07T19:08:22  <laanwj> thanks, removed the merged ones, 7 blockers, 1 chasing concept ACK left
6012021-10-07T19:08:25  <jonatack> among the open ones, i'd like to suggest #22702 and #21943 to reviewers, please have a look if you have some bandwidth
6022021-10-07T19:08:27  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/22702 | Add allocator for node based containers by martinus · Pull Request #22702 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
6032021-10-07T19:08:30  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21943 | Dedup and RAII-fy the creation of a copy of CConnman::vNodes by vasild · Pull Request #21943 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
6042021-10-07T19:09:03  <michaelfolkson> A new soft fork is high priority?
6052021-10-07T19:09:05  *** Talkless <Talkless!~Talkless@mail.dargis.net> has quit IRC (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
6062021-10-07T19:09:13  <laanwj> jeremyrubin: added
6072021-10-07T19:09:18  <cfields> "for review"
6082021-10-07T19:09:44  <jeremyrubin> michaelfolkson: well, high priority is for communicating personal priority + review precedence. afaiu contributors get to pick what they want there
6092021-10-07T19:09:51  <jonatack> the first for performance and lower memory use, the second appears to reduce some of the most frequent lock contentions
6102021-10-07T19:10:28  <laanwj> jonatack: intend to look into them
6112021-10-07T19:11:33  <laanwj> anything else?
6122021-10-07T19:12:27  <jonatack> laanwj: great!
6132021-10-07T19:12:30  <laanwj> nothing else to add to high prio? no other topics?
6142021-10-07T19:12:50  <meshcollider> We could re-visit the discussion about fanquake now we have a lot of ACKs :)
6152021-10-07T19:13:09  *** jamesob <jamesob!uid180710@id-180710.helmsley.irccloud.com> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
6162021-10-07T19:13:28  <jeremyrubin> Is this about increased GH permissions?
6172021-10-07T19:13:30  <michaelfolkson> What's your best case for the timing of a #21702 merge jeremyrubin? It is an interesting time to put it as your highest priority for review
6182021-10-07T19:13:32  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21702 | Implement BIP-119 Validation (CheckTemplateVerify) by JeremyRubin · Pull Request #21702 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
6192021-10-07T19:13:58  <meshcollider> jeremyrubin: yep
6202021-10-07T19:14:06  <michaelfolkson> Perhaps not the best place for this discussion, probably mailing list is better
6212021-10-07T19:14:12  <michaelfolkson> For the PR
6222021-10-07T19:14:19  <michaelfolkson> fanquake discussion sounds good
6232021-10-07T19:15:31  <michaelfolkson> I think there were a lot of ACKs with two NACKs (from what I saw)
6242021-10-07T19:15:42  <laanwj> didn't keep a tally but a lot of people voted +1 for fanquake being able to block people from the github, outside the meeting
6252021-10-07T19:15:44  <laanwj> yes
6262021-10-07T19:15:52  <meshcollider> FWIW, we had 15 ACKs (darosior, michaelfolkson, jarolrod, fjahr, MarcoFalke, laanwj, dhruv, jnewbery, amiti, ariard, larryruane, sipa, achow101, hebasto, and myself) on IRC in support, while only 2 against (prayank, luke-jr)
6272021-10-07T19:16:17  <laanwj> meshcollider: ok!
6282021-10-07T19:16:28  <jeremyrubin> i'll ack --> perhaps we can just keep a log wiki somewhere of who is blocked and why
6292021-10-07T19:16:41  <luke-jr> laanwj: I don't think the problem is him being able to block spammers, just having full access
6302021-10-07T19:17:03  <meshcollider> jeremyrubin: I think the only thing anyone is ever blocked for is unintelligible spam
6312021-10-07T19:17:08  <laanwj> to be clear, we only block, ever, for obvious spamming and scamming attempts
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6332021-10-07T19:17:22  <luke-jr> meshcollider: I've seen a lot of issues locked to stop non-spam discussion lately
6342021-10-07T19:17:22  <jeremyrubin> that's fine then, email notification are sufficient IMO
6352021-10-07T19:17:28  <luke-jr> (but not sure that's fanquake)
6362021-10-07T19:17:37  <luke-jr> laanwj: that isn't accurate
6372021-10-07T19:17:49  <meshcollider> luke-jr: I haven't seen that, you'll need to provide specific examples
6382021-10-07T19:17:54  <luke-jr> unless the distinction is lock vs block
6392021-10-07T19:18:16  <laanwj> luke-jr: i mean block as in making specific users unable to post or PR to the repository
6402021-10-07T19:18:16  <luke-jr> meshcollider: I'll bring them up next time; IIRC the last one I noticed was rebroad commenting
6412021-10-07T19:18:30  <luke-jr> rebroad may be dense sometimes, but he isn't spam
6422021-10-07T19:18:39  <laanwj> rebroad isn't blocked from the repo !!!
6432021-10-07T19:19:01  <laanwj> you're bringing other things into this
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6452021-10-07T19:19:10  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] dougEfresh opened pull request #23224: [RFC] util: Add suffix byte unit parser for ArgsManager (master...add-args-byte-units) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23224
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6472021-10-07T19:19:44  <michaelfolkson> I would like more transparency and explanations on why certain issues are locked (if people ask)
6482021-10-07T19:19:45  <luke-jr> ok, sorry for the confusion
6492021-10-07T19:19:59  <michaelfolkson> But I don't think that is fanquake specific
6502021-10-07T19:20:02  <lightlike> luke-jr: the locking of old PRs was done by MacroFalke, see  2021-10-05 09:57 in logs
6512021-10-07T19:20:18  <jamesob> (ACK fanquake, fwiw)
6522021-10-07T19:20:22  <laanwj> i think the idea is that people open new issues instead of post on ancient ones
6532021-10-07T19:20:41  <michaelfolkson> Recently MarcoFalke closed 3 year old issues and told this channel (which was fine I think)
6542021-10-07T19:20:55  <michaelfolkson> As long as this channel is told and people can enquire why if there is confusion
6552021-10-07T19:21:03  <laanwj> e.g. some old issues and PRs that have been merged years ago keep accumulating replies that don't really apply to the original topic anymore
6562021-10-07T19:21:09  <meshcollider> michaelfolkson: He didn't close them, he locked inactive issues which were already closed I think
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6582021-10-07T19:21:32  <michaelfolkson> meshcollider: Ok sure, thanks for correction
6592021-10-07T19:21:34  <laanwj> right
6602021-10-07T19:22:13  <laanwj> in any case i think it makes sense to post why before closing/locking an issue, i tend to to that unless it's obvious
6612021-10-07T19:22:21  <meshcollider> (locking issues is also a lower permission than maintainer, a number of other users have that permission)
6622021-10-07T19:22:37  <meshcollider> The "issue management" team
6632021-10-07T19:22:45  <laanwj> right
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6652021-10-07T19:23:32  <laanwj> in any case, if your pR or issue is closed and you disagree, bring it up here
6662021-10-07T19:24:02  <jeremyrubin> maybe we should just declare issue/pr bankruptcy and close everything w/o activity in the last week and allow folks to reopen if they want, that way there's less 'moral judgement' of should be closed or not and we can just clean shop
6672021-10-07T19:24:16  <laanwj> doing issue management is simply needed in a busy project like this, and i'm sure there are mistakes sometimes
6682021-10-07T19:24:34  <meshcollider> jeremyrubin: if an issue is closed by a maintainer I don't think the user can re-open it themselves
6692021-10-07T19:25:32  <jeremyrubin> we could do a 'reopen bot' that checks for a request to reopen as a comment... but i know that's extra work for someone
6702021-10-07T19:25:40  <laanwj> why would that need a bot
6712021-10-07T19:25:45  <laanwj> simply ask a maintainer when it happens
6722021-10-07T19:25:49  <laanwj> or better, simply post here
6732021-10-07T19:26:05  <jeremyrubin> didn't want to make more work for maintainer as noted by meshcollider, but I agree that works
6742021-10-07T19:26:09  <jonatack> meshcollider: seems so, i've had pulls unilaterally closed several times this year and had to open a new pull
6752021-10-07T19:26:49  <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: not all of us have funding to touch every PR once a week; sometimes it takes me months to address things
6762021-10-07T19:26:59  <laanwj> jonatack: why didn't you ask to reopen them?
6772021-10-07T19:27:22  <meshcollider> ^
6782021-10-07T19:27:41  <jonatack> laanwj: wu wei, going with the flow i guess :D
6792021-10-07T19:27:43  <jeremyrubin> luke-jr: i'm saying do it as a 1x pr-bankruptcy, not every week. (maybe 1x a year?)
6802021-10-07T19:28:11  <michaelfolkson> It seems communication could be improved in both directions between PR authors and maintainers :)
6812021-10-07T19:28:23  <michaelfolkson> Definitely ask next time jonatack :)
6822021-10-07T19:28:31  <meshcollider> I think this is a very separate conversation anyway
6832021-10-07T19:28:32  <laanwj> jonatack: heh
6842021-10-07T19:28:57  <jonatack> i mean, it's not important, just confirming meshcollider's statement
6852021-10-07T19:31:19  <laanwj> i think that concludes the meeting
6862021-10-07T19:32:13  <laanwj> luke-jr: in your case we know that, it's sometimes different with new contributors that open a PR then never respond again :)
6872021-10-07T19:32:52  <laanwj> #endmeeting
6882021-10-07T19:33:00  <laanwj> oh, yeah, no bot
6892021-10-07T19:33:18  <cfields> ## meep morp, meeting adjourned.
6902021-10-07T19:33:38  <laanwj> :D
6912021-10-07T19:34:01  <jeremyrubin> michaelfolkson i moved it to my high priority since i'm not going to be able to attend IRL it seems, that was the appropriate other choice for communicating my intent.
6922021-10-07T19:34:18  <jeremyrubin> there is no specific timeline i have, i'm noting that it would be good to get more eyes on it
6932021-10-07T19:36:01  <jonatack> yes iirc the guideline has been that anyone can request more or less any pull, the only limit being just normally not more than one at a time of their own
6942021-10-07T19:37:16  <jeremyrubin> the PR itself contains no deployment params, so is fully revertible. nor does it change any standardness rules. so it'd be fine to merge it (assuming correct) and then discuss potential deployment (as was done with e.g. taproot). i'm not advocating that before technical consensus is reached, just explaining how the software works.
6952021-10-07T19:38:09  <michaelfolkson> I think at some point there will need to be a discussion on where people are standing on "the next soft fork", possible timing, makeup of it. Ideally that discussion would be put off as long as possible though imo
6962021-10-07T19:38:31  <michaelfolkson> I suspect there will be some strong disagreements
6972021-10-07T19:39:21  <laanwj> normally only one per person, we do have two PRs in the list by jeremyrubin now, but i guess the mempool optimization is dissimilar enough it's not really an issue
6982021-10-07T19:41:01  <jeremyrubin> yep, as noted welcome to remove that if you like. but i don't really have the motivation to push on that one really much further at present, i'm hoping some other contributors will prioritize seeing it through beyond basic maitnenance.
6992021-10-07T19:41:44  <jeremyrubin> michaelfolkson: can you say more about what you view as this timeline for when things can or cannot be discussed?
7002021-10-07T19:42:39  <jamesob> laanwj: sorry, missed the beginning of the meeting. can I add #23174 to high prio list?
7012021-10-07T19:42:41  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/23174 | validation: have LoadBlockIndex account for snapshot use by jamesob · Pull Request #23174 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
7022021-10-07T19:43:04  <michaelfolkson> jeremyrubin: I can only speak for myself. But putting something as high priority today if the plan is for a soft fork in e.g. 2 years (name a longish period from now) seems bizarre to me. That's why I asked on best case timing
7032021-10-07T19:44:49  <jamesob> jeremyrubin: I'm definitely in the process of doing a conceptual evaluation of OP_CTV for myself atm - specifically in the context of covenants for vaulting
7042021-10-07T19:45:27  <michaelfolkson> Anything can be discussed whenever people want to discuss them. But prioritizing is the act of weighing up what is most urgent, important versus other possible priorities
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7072021-10-07T19:46:43  <_aj_> laanwj: (maybe it would make sense to rename high-pri to "top-pri" as in "this is contributor x's top priority pr")
7082021-10-07T19:47:23  <jeremyrubin> well, I put it on priority for review since i've been talking with more and more potential users of CTV there seems to be more desire to evaluate it to solve problems (e.g. vaults) as well as to know what kind of timeline there could be. a timeline can't evolve until there's been enough core review.
7092021-10-07T19:48:09  <jonatack> laanwj: oh heh, i didn't see there were two now, wasn't commenting on that :D   there have been other times as well if i'm not misremembering
7102021-10-07T19:48:25  <jeremyrubin> in the conversations i've been having with orgs they seem to want to solve problems on a 6 months to 1 year horizon, beyond that is too far out for them to dedicate resources
7112021-10-07T19:48:29  <michaelfolkson> I'm definitely following OP_CTV and have recently discussed it at multiple Socratics, it is really interesting. I just think we potentially strongly disagree on timing and how much time should be given to weighing up what should be in a covenant/vault soft fork before it happens
7122021-10-07T19:48:55  <michaelfolkson> But that's only my personal view, I have no idea what other people think
7132021-10-07T19:50:15  <michaelfolkson> Anyway, gtg
7142021-10-07T19:50:59  <jeremyrubin> i think the orgs i've mostly been speaking to would strongly like *something* in place that's studied to be safe sooner than later so that they can work on getting tech out to end users based on it.
7152021-10-07T19:51:56  <jeremyrubin> a better thing can always be added later, but there's a preference to have more options on the table now than there is to design the 'one covnenant system to rule them all'.
7162021-10-07T19:52:50  <jeremyrubin> i've not been hyping it as an argument for deployement since i think it could still use more support and review, but there's a list i'm tracking on utxos.org/signals for orgs/ppl that would like ctv
7172021-10-07T19:52:51  <jamesob> e.g. vaulting is really compelling for custody operations, and CTV-style covenants could add a ton of security in short order by enabling better forms of them. alternative is doing presigned txns, but proving key deletion is difficult.
7182021-10-07T19:56:21  <jeremyrubin> the other one i've seen a lot of excitement for is batch channel creation.
7192021-10-07T19:57:00  <jeremyrubin> especially with the El Salvador stuff people are trying to figure out better ways to create a large number of channels w/o resorting to more custodial setups
7202021-10-07T19:57:10  <_aj_> jeremyrubin: hmm, bip 119 has (expired) activation parameters currently?
7212021-10-07T19:57:25  <jaybny2> think op_ctv doesnt go far enough - but its a good first step, and hope more can eventually more can part of the next soft fork including op_apo
7222021-10-07T19:58:10  <jeremyrubin> _aj_: ah yeah i think when i put that in the BIP there may not have been the disabled specific flags. that's that the PR currently uses
7232021-10-07T19:58:16  <jeremyrubin> I can update to copy what's in the PR
7242021-10-07T19:59:19  <_aj_> jeremyrubin, jamesob: fwiw, when last i looked at the bip, and skimmed the code, it seemed like the simplest possible implmentation of the idea, which resolved the concerns i'd had with earlier versions. i think i'd nitpick how the hash is constructed, but otherwise if the code isn't buggy, it seems plausible
7252021-10-07T19:59:44  <jeremyrubin> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/118ff53bab10120943d987b4d3fb404c76922765/src/chainparams.cpp#L95
7262021-10-07T19:59:58  <jeremyrubin> we also didn't have speedy trial then, which we do now :)
7272021-10-07T20:00:48  <_aj_> jeremyrubin, jamesob: i think sighash_group would be a big bang-for-buck feature so it's highest on my list atm (very subject to change), and i'm curious as to whether ctv and sighash_group could be made compatible, so that the same technique to combine sighash_group payments into a single tx could allow combining multiple ctv paymnts into a single tx
7282021-10-07T20:01:25  <jamesob> I'm interested in TLUV and any other idea for covenant implementations, but they seem much more general/in-direct/hard to assess for code janitors like me. I think I'm Concept ACK unless I hear reasonable concerns about safety from some of the devs here with grayer beards than mine
7292021-10-07T20:02:26  <jamesob> _aj_ where can I read about sighash_group? Must've missed the ML post
7302021-10-07T20:02:29  <_aj_> (i think eltoo channels might need ANYPREVOUT and SIGHASH_GROUP, and eltoo factories (3+ participants who can establish off-chain internal channels amongst subgroups) might also need TLUV)
7312021-10-07T20:02:32  <jeremyrubin> it's a good question. my preferred technique for that would be to do it as follow on whenever bundles are sufficiently reviewed, and then enable it as a 33 byte hash for CTV only under taproot where the annex contains the bitmask?
7322021-10-07T20:03:00  <laanwj> jamesob: added
7332021-10-07T20:03:06  <jamesob> laanwj: thanks
7342021-10-07T20:04:37  <jeremyrubin> i think the thing that concerns me re bundles and CTV is that it limits the benefits of caching hashes so i'd be worried if the bundle spec were not per input (e.g., bundle spec tag on hash could lead to quad hashing)
7352021-10-07T20:05:00  <_aj_> jeremyrubin: yeah, that makes sense to me too. i think CTV is philosophically "SIGHASH_ANYPREVOUT" but without bothering to do the signature, so this would be "SIGHASH_ANYPREVOUT | SIGHASH_GROUP" again without doing the signature, so you'd just be adding a sighash-byte at the start/end to differentiate just like for sigs
7362021-10-07T20:05:16  <jeremyrubin> and i also am curious about thinking through allowing overlapping bundles and if there is any merit or use of that
7372021-10-07T20:05:30  <_aj_> sighash_group specifies no overlapping bundles
7382021-10-07T20:06:03  <jeremyrubin> _aj_ is there a link for most recent thinking on sighash group for jamesob?
7392021-10-07T20:06:29  <_aj_> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-July/019243.html
7402021-10-07T20:06:37  <_aj_> took me a while to find it
7412021-10-07T20:06:42  <jamesob> _aj_ jeremyrubin: thanks
7422021-10-07T20:06:56  <jamesob> yeah neither duckduckgo nor google turn up results
7432021-10-07T20:07:04  <jeremyrubin> _aj_ btw i don't care much about the specific hash construction if you have thoughts on that.
7442021-10-07T20:08:31  <jeremyrubin> i think there are tradeoffs any way you define it, but there absolutely could be some benefit to different orders interactions with CAT or SHASTREAM or caching or something
7452021-10-07T20:08:32  <_aj_> jeremyrubin: i think my thoughts were just "should use tagged hashes, and maybe otherwise be more similar to taproot than to segwitv0/whatever" but i haven't actually compared or thought about any pitfalls
7462021-10-07T20:08:37  <jeremyrubin> Ah
7472021-10-07T20:08:58  <jeremyrubin> the main reason not to do a tagged hash is to make it easier to work with on the stack if there is a future CAT fork
7482021-10-07T20:09:10  <_aj_> jeremyrubin: pretty easy to construct tagged hashes with CAT though
7492021-10-07T20:09:25  <jeremyrubin> at cost of bigger txns
7502021-10-07T20:09:43  <laanwj> _aj_: we couldrename it, but i'm not sure top-prio versus high-prio is that much clearer
7512021-10-07T20:09:59  <jeremyrubin> is there a benefit to the safety of using tagged hashes?
7522021-10-07T20:10:08  <_aj_> laanwj: yeah, i put brackets around things that probably aren't good ideas :)
7532021-10-07T20:11:05  <_aj_> laanwj: at least that's a helpful way of thinking about it for me though -- "high pri" sounds like something the "project" thinks is high priority to me, especially if you're a newb; realising it's only indiviual people's things requires a moment of insight...
7542021-10-07T20:12:10  <_aj_> jeremyrubin: when you're not trying to sign it, perhaps not?
7552021-10-07T20:12:20  <jeremyrubin> i was actually thinking w.r.t. hash construction that doing merkle trees of the outputs would be interesting, but would be very bikesheddy given it would presuppose how some mtree manipulation code would work (and could just be done as a tagged version).
7562021-10-07T20:12:27  <laanwj> it might help that the sub-category is called 'blockers', it would be slightly strange if they were blocking the entire project and not one person's work, but yes i understand the confusion
7572021-10-07T20:12:28  <jamesob> laanwj _aj_: whatever the list is called, it's really just "where do I look for the next thing to review"
7582021-10-07T20:12:53  <laanwj> jamesob: right, that's the idea, just to give people ideas what to review
7592021-10-07T20:12:57  <jeremyrubin> _aj_ yeah i did consider it a while back and couldn't think of any benefit and only a mild annoyance in the future so i did a plain hash
7602021-10-07T20:14:12  <_aj_> jeremyrubin: maybe if we also had checkdatasig or whatever? though then it'd presumably be people signing components that get CATed to make the hash anyway (if you were signing the full ctv hash, might as well just use checksig/anyprevout, presumably)
7612021-10-07T20:15:34  <_aj_> jeremyrubin: you're not on wizards?
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7632021-10-07T20:19:14  <jeremyrubin> oops
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7652021-10-07T20:20:59  <jeremyrubin> _aj_ the checkdatasig thing is interesting, you can actually do eltoo like thing with just CTV and CDS
7662021-10-07T20:21:13  <jeremyrubin> so it is possible you'd want to sign hashes?
7672021-10-07T20:21:41  <jeremyrubin> That said, it depends if CDS gets a 'raw' API (sign arbitrary message) or if the message to CDS gets hashed (and therefore, can have it's own tag)
7682021-10-07T20:21:54  <_aj_> jeremyrubin: that's just emulating ANYPREVOUT because CTV has it (more or less) but CHECKSIG doesn't, no?
7692021-10-07T20:22:28  <jeremyrubin> can you reword that? what's it?
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7712021-10-07T20:23:02  <_aj_> jeremyrubin: that's just emulating CHECKSIG-ANYPREVOUT because CTV has ANYPREVOUT (more or less) but CHECKSIG doesn't, no?
7722021-10-07T20:24:05  <jeremyrubin> ah, yes
7732021-10-07T20:24:35  <jeremyrubin> if you do <H> CTV <PK> CHECKSIGFROMSTACKVERIFY you basically get something that's like anyprevout
7742021-10-07T20:24:45  <jeremyrubin> the main difference is no sighash flags
7752021-10-07T20:25:25  <jeremyrubin> but you can always e.g. sign a couple copies of the txn with extra *inputs* if you want (no adding outputs)
7762021-10-07T20:25:45  <jeremyrubin> then you can do eltoo like stuff with
7772021-10-07T20:26:11  <jeremyrubin> <H> CTV <PKu> CHECKSIGFROMSTACKVERIFY<N+1> CLTV
7782021-10-07T20:26:33  <jeremyrubin> which gives you the ratchet to burn old H's signed by PKu
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7812021-10-07T20:28:01  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] katesalazar opened pull request #23225: Reject float at satoshi_round  (master...20211006) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23225
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7882021-10-07T20:39:35  <gene> sipa: after messing around with mull for mutation tests, not sure if it's suitable for CI
7892021-10-07T20:40:35  <gene> even running mull-cxx (mutation compiler) with only one worker takes 12-16G ram
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8692021-10-07T21:40:29  <michaelfolkson> laanwj: Perhaps the description for High-priority for review could be added to
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8712021-10-07T21:41:03  <michaelfolkson> Currently it is "These either block other important work in progress, or are necessary for backport to a minor release. Also includes a list of PRs that are in a mergeable state."
8722021-10-07T21:42:12  <michaelfolkson> Something like "from the PR author's perspective" after "block other important work in progress"
8732021-10-07T21:42:41  <michaelfolkson> The description sounds like it is high priority for the project
8742021-10-07T21:43:55  <michaelfolkson> Some may think it is (e.g. the PR author) but to have a new soft fork as a high priority for the project is at least disputable imo
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8782021-10-07T21:54:00  <jeremyrubin> what is high priority for the project that's indisputible?
8792021-10-07T21:55:35  <michaelfolkson> I guess nothing hence my suggested wording change
8802021-10-07T21:58:40  <michaelfolkson> Putting a consensus change as high priority could certainly give the wrong impression to an outside observer (as others have pointed out)
8812021-10-07T22:02:33  <michaelfolkson> I don't even know if it can be considered for merging until there is community consensus on it being in the next soft fork can it? If it can't be considered for merging it can't be high priority for the project
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8832021-10-07T22:06:49  <lightlike> how could a community consensus form if not through peer review? It's called "high priority for review" after all, not "high priority for merge"
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8862021-10-07T22:11:26  <michaelfolkson> lightlike: I'm not sure whether the only way you get peer review is by marking it as "high priority for review" and a "blocker" on Bitcoin Core
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8892021-10-07T22:16:50  <michaelfolkson> I just think there is (potentially) a fundamental disagreement on how we consider consensus changes in future. Merging a consensus change PR once it has ~5 ACKs on a Core PR doesn't seem to be the right process for a consensus change to me
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8962021-10-07T22:33:14  <TallTim> Perhaps changes should be factored as to their economic impact, given that this is a financial system after all. UI/UX? Probably minor. Protcol level? Bigger impact.
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8992021-10-07T22:41:00  <michaelfolkson> I would factor it by risk personally. And there is nothing more risky than a soft fork other than perhaps a hard fork. Doing one every time a consensus change PR gets ~5 ACKs on the Core repo sounds crazy to me
9002021-10-07T22:41:42  <michaelfolkson> But maybe we have to learn that lesson in real life
9012021-10-07T22:41:51  <jeremyrubin> tbh soft forks aren't particularly more or less dangerous than other changes we make to bitcoin
9022021-10-07T22:41:59  <jeremyrubin> all changes have risks and rewards
9032021-10-07T22:42:46  <jeremyrubin> think of it like skydiving vs driving
9042021-10-07T22:42:57  <michaelfolkson> I couldn't disagree any more strongly. Even with a soft fork that had overwhelming community consensus (Taproot) activation was concerning
9052021-10-07T22:43:20  <jeremyrubin> skydiving isn't more dangerous than driving -- did you know that? it's actually safer
9062021-10-07T22:43:41  <michaelfolkson> And that was the safest it gets. Couldn't have had any more community consensus
9072021-10-07T22:44:12  <jeremyrubin> but obviously jumping out of a plane is more dangerous than driving a car
9082021-10-07T22:44:27  <michaelfolkson> Maybe we just have to have that disputed soft fork so we can learn that lesson
9092021-10-07T22:44:32  <jeremyrubin> but when you jump out of a plane you take more precautions than driving, which makes it safer
9102021-10-07T22:45:12  <jeremyrubin> so i think you're having the reaction that "it's jumping out of a plane it's so unsafe" and ignoring the fact that we're driving day by day by day
9112021-10-07T22:45:30  <jeremyrubin> courting review is a part of "packing the chute", so is the fact that we do signalled activation for soft forks
9122021-10-07T22:46:01  <jeremyrubin> i think that leads to the way that we do soft forks for bitcoin being no more unsafe than other changes we make
9132021-10-07T22:46:48  <michaelfolkson> I just think the above is nonsense. But I'm not going to be able to convince you
9142021-10-07T22:48:03  <michaelfolkson> Either a consensus change has overwhelming community buy in or you take shortcuts and try to get it in with a few reviews on the Core repo
9152021-10-07T22:48:19  <jeremyrubin> i think what you're arguing for is tantamount to just shouting that we shouldn't even think about going for another jump because sky diving is so scary when you think about it, and telling people to not bother checking the chute is proprely packed because we shouldn't go because it's so dangerous.
9162021-10-07T22:48:31  <jeremyrubin> there's nothing wrong with checking that the chute is properly packed
9172021-10-07T22:48:52  <jeremyrubin> there's nothing wrong with reviewing the code for ctv
9182021-10-07T22:50:02  <jeremyrubin> i'm really not sure what shortcuts you're accusing me of. i am requesting more reviewers and you are saying that i shouldn't request more reviewers because i'm trying to get it merged with few reviewers
9192021-10-07T22:50:22  <jeremyrubin> i think it's utter nonsense and i don't get why you're pursuing these convoluted arguments
9202021-10-07T22:51:58  <michaelfolkson> I don't know how we avoid the disputed soft fork then
9212021-10-07T22:53:00  <jeremyrubin> i think you're manufacturing factionalized controversy for controversy's sake
9222021-10-07T22:53:03  <michaelfolkson> I think there should be overwhelming community consensus on what is in the soft fork. You think you do a soft fork whenever a consensus change gets merged into Core
9232021-10-07T22:53:10  <michaelfolkson> (I think)
9242021-10-07T22:53:18  <jeremyrubin> i don't see where you are getting that from
9252021-10-07T22:53:29  <jeremyrubin> the PR has no activation parameters in it
9262021-10-07T22:53:45  <michaelfolkson> Right but once merged into Core the next phase is activation
9272021-10-07T22:54:16  <jeremyrubin> presumably core doesn't merge activation parameters until there's community consensus.
9282021-10-07T22:54:42  <jeremyrubin> even then, soft forks have signals which can be used as a second safety check for community consensus
9292021-10-07T22:54:54  <michaelfolkson> I don't think it should merge consensus code changes until there's community consensus
9302021-10-07T22:55:11  <jeremyrubin> we do that pretty often
9312021-10-07T22:55:30  <jeremyrubin> many changes to bitcoin core affect the consensus code
9322021-10-07T22:55:40  <jeremyrubin> we hope in ways that are not observable, of course
9332021-10-07T22:55:51  <jeremyrubin> similar to an un activated soft fork, which should not be observable
9342021-10-07T22:58:06  <jeremyrubin> michaelfolkson was there overwhelming community consensus for taproot? for segwit? for CSV? etc?
9352021-10-07T22:58:17  <jeremyrubin> can you quantify or qualify what that means?
9362021-10-07T22:58:44  <michaelfolkson> For Taproot, yes. I think only contributor I'm aware who NACKed it was on quantum concerns
9372021-10-07T22:58:59  <michaelfolkson> That is a very high bar
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9392021-10-07T22:59:35  <jeremyrubin> so the bar for "overhwhelming community consensus" is just what contributors think?
9402021-10-07T23:00:33  <jeremyrubin> it's my recollection there were actually a lot of NACKs for the activation mechanism (you know, the actual fork part)
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9422021-10-07T23:00:45  <jeremyrubin> to the point where a potentially incompatible client was released
9432021-10-07T23:01:03  <michaelfolkson> That was activation. And that will happen for the next soft fork too
9442021-10-07T23:01:08  <jeremyrubin> so isn't that actually a low bar then?
9452021-10-07T23:01:20  <jeremyrubin> well activation code is definitionally consensus code
9462021-10-07T23:01:35  <michaelfolkson> So add a disputed soft fork into the mix of activation concerns and you've got quite the bonfire
9472021-10-07T23:02:46  <jeremyrubin> are there plans to not reuse speedy trial again? it seemed to go very smoothly
9482021-10-07T23:03:32  <michaelfolkson> It hasn't been discussed. I would guess it will be used next time but I'm sure we'll have similar dynamics around the alternative client
9492021-10-07T23:03:46  <michaelfolkson> (or at least I'm not aware it has been discussed)
9502021-10-07T23:07:28  <jeremyrubin> so you think taproot had community consensus, but what about segwit?
9512021-10-07T23:08:33  <michaelfolkson> Speedy Trial seemed to go smoothly for a soft fork with one contributor NACK and although harder to measure what seemed like overwhelming community consensus. I didn't see (m)any people saying Taproot shouldn't be activated
9522021-10-07T23:09:50  <michaelfolkson> SegWit was part of a block size, ASICBoost, hard fork war. I'm not sure that is what we should be comfortable with for the next soft fork
9532021-10-07T23:12:27  <jeremyrubin> counterpoint, not getting segwit would have been pretty bad for bitcoin overall, no? should we let 'bullies' who don't want bitcoin to progress to roadblock the rest of the network? if we can't get an important upgrade in the face of bad actors, that sounds bad for bitcoin...
9542021-10-07T23:13:53  <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: yet you wanted to empower such bullies ;)
9552021-10-07T23:14:32  <BlueMatt> can y'all take this to a more appropriate forum? this is not the right place.
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