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 18 2021-10-07T00:40:25  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 4 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/577b0ffd2ea4...a68de12c0ebf
 19 2021-10-07T00:40:25  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 5e42f2a Hennadii Stepanov: build: Make <QtBaseDir> default name Qt and VS versions agnostic
 20 2021-10-07T00:40:25  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master c4139f0 Hennadii Stepanov: doc: Replace a link to Qt precompiled binaries with compile instructions
 21 2021-10-07T00:40:25  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 6bc4398 Hennadii Stepanov: doc: Suggest using jom instead of nmake
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 24 2021-10-07T00:40:42  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #22890: doc: Replace a link to Qt precompiled binaries with compile instructions (master...210904-msvc) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/22890
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 26 2021-10-07T00:42:09  <fanquake> Another step towards removing bdb, is no-longer failing to configure when we don't have it, so that people stop installing it: #23168
 27 2021-10-07T00:42:11  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/23168 | build: no-longer fail default configure if BDB isnt available by fanquake · Pull Request #23168 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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 42 2021-10-07T01:11:37  <sipa> fanquake: it's like it's keeping itself alive
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 58 2021-10-07T01:51:12  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] theStack opened pull request #23211: refactor: move `update_*` structs from txmempool.h to .cpp file (master...202110-refactor-various_mempool_cleanups) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23211
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131 2021-10-07T04:36:33  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/a68de12c0ebf...0500a22d8c78
132 2021-10-07T04:36:33  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fab360a MarcoFalke: util: Add mremap syscall to AllowAddressSpaceAccess
133 2021-10-07T04:36:33  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 0500a22 fanquake: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#23208: util: Add mremap syscall to AllowAddressSpace...
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136 2021-10-07T04:36:48  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #23208: util: Add mremap syscall to AllowAddressSpaceAccess (master...2110-syscall) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23208
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158 2021-10-07T05:29:02  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/0500a22d8c78...f8911de619d4
159 2021-10-07T05:29:02  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fafff13 MarcoFalke: doc: Extract FundTxDoc
160 2021-10-07T05:29:02  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master f8911de fanquake: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#23172: doc: Extract FundTxDoc in rpcwallet
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163 2021-10-07T05:29:18  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #23172: doc: Extract FundTxDoc in rpcwallet (master...2110-docRpcWallet) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23172
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190 2021-10-07T06:22:40  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #23212: lint: enable mypy import checking (master...22844_fixedup) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23212
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193 2021-10-07T06:22:57  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #22844: feature: enable mypy to run without --ignore-imports (master...josibake-fix-mypy-import-errors) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/22844
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218 2021-10-07T07:10:30  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/f8911de619d4...b4437d7dfe23
219 2021-10-07T07:10:30  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa2ac58 MarcoFalke: test: Replace satoshi_round with int() or Decimal()
220 2021-10-07T07:10:30  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master b4437d7 MarcoFalke: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#23210: test: Replace satoshi_round with int() or Dec...
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223 2021-10-07T07:10:47  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #23210: test: Replace satoshi_round with int() or Decimal() (master...2110-testRound) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23210
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237 2021-10-07T08:00:29  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/b4437d7dfe23...c0b6c96eee7c
238 2021-10-07T08:00:29  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 502f50d Jon Atack: Test transactions conflicted by double spend in listtransactions
239 2021-10-07T08:00:29  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master c0b6c96 MarcoFalke: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#23146: Test transactions conflicted by double spend ...
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242 2021-10-07T08:00:46  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #23146: Test transactions conflicted by double spend in listtransactions (master...test-txns-conflicted-by-double-spend-in-listtransactions) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23146
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267 2021-10-07T09:00:17  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #23213: rest: Return error when header count is not integral (master...2110-restInt) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23213
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278 2021-10-07T09:13:42  <bitcoin-git> [gui] promag opened pull request #448: qt: Add helper to load font (master...2021-10-font-helper) https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gui/pull/448
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283 2021-10-07T09:15:01  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #23214: Replace stoul with ToIntegral in dbwrapper (master...2110-dbwInt) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23214
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291 2021-10-07T09:31:16  <darosior> maintainers: #22539 looks close to be ready for merge
292 2021-10-07T09:31:20  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/22539 | Re-include RBF replacement txs in fee estimation by darosior · Pull Request #22539 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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295 2021-10-07T09:38:42  <laanwj> darosior: will take a look, thanks
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309 2021-10-07T10:12:45  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #23215: ci: Add vcpkg downloads cache (master...211007-ci) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23215
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312 2021-10-07T10:16:02  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #23216: clang-format: Set BraceWrapping:AfterControlStatement:MultiLine (master...2110-srcFormat) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23216
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331 2021-10-07T11:08:05  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #23217: [DO NOT MERGE] ci: Test required resources for native Windows tasks (master...211007-mem) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23217
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342 2021-10-07T11:31:07  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #23218: p2p: Use mocktime for ping timeout (master...2110-mockPingTime) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23218
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352 2021-10-07T11:48:18  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 5 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/c0b6c96eee7c...6f0cbc75be76
353 2021-10-07T11:48:18  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 06c5ce9 Antoine Poinsot: Re-include RBF replacement txs in fee estimation
354 2021-10-07T11:48:18  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 053415b Antoine Poinsot: qa: split run_test into smaller parts
355 2021-10-07T11:48:18  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 4556406 Antoine Poinsot: qa: test fee estimation with replacement transactions
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358 2021-10-07T11:48:35  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #22539: Re-include RBF replacement txs in fee estimation (master...fee_est_rbf) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/22539
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381 2021-10-07T12:39:50  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/6f0cbc75be76...6334ff7364e2
382 2021-10-07T12:39:50  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 64085b3 W. J. van der Laan: util: Add __NR_copy_file_range syscall constant for sandbox
383 2021-10-07T12:39:50  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master ac402e7 W. J. van der Laan: util: Conditionalize some syscalls in syscall name table
384 2021-10-07T12:39:50  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 6334ff7 W. J. van der Laan: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#23196: util: Make syscall sandbox compilable with ke...
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387 2021-10-07T12:40:07  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #23196: util: Make syscall sandbox compilable with kernel 4.4.0 (master...2021-10-syscall-sandbox2) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23196
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401 2021-10-07T13:11:39  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jonatack opened pull request #23219: p2p: remove unneeded CNetAddr vector in LookupSubNet() and update/tidy up (master...LookupSubNet-todo-fix) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23219
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407 2021-10-07T13:20:00  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #23220: ci: Reduce Windows memory for faster scheduling (master...211007-mem1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23220
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417 2021-10-07T13:42:48  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/6334ff7364e2...991753e4d50e
418 2021-10-07T13:42:48  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 429b493 Sebastian Falbesoner: test: introduce script_util helper for creating P2PK scripts
419 2021-10-07T13:42:48  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 991753e W. J. van der Laan: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#23118: test: refactor: introduce `script_util` helpe...
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422 2021-10-07T13:43:05  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #23118: test: refactor: introduce `script_util` helper for creating P2PK scripts (master...202109-test-add_helper_for_creating_p2pk_scripts) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23118
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516 2021-10-07T17:18:42  <jaybny> ping
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522 2021-10-07T17:31:31  <jaybny2> pong
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545 2021-10-07T18:35:26  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jonatack opened pull request #23223: Add NoLockLoggingTestingSetup to test utilities, use in checkqueue_tests (master...alleviate-checkqueue-tests-contention-logging) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23223
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554 2021-10-07T19:00:17  <laanwj> #startmeeting
555 2021-10-07T19:00:47  <jeremyrubin> hi
556 2021-10-07T19:00:51  <laanwj> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: achow101 _aj_ amiti ariard BlueMatt cfields Chris_Stewart_5 darosior digi_james dongcarl elichai2 emilengler fanquake fjahr gleb glozow gmaxwell gwillen hebasto instagibbs jamesob jarolrod jb55 jeremyrubin jl2012 jnewbery jonasschnelli jonatack jtimon kallewoof kanzure kvaciral laanwj lightlike luke-jr maaku marcofalke meshcollider michagogo moneyball morcos
557 2021-10-07T19:00:53  <laanwj> nehan NicolasDorier paveljanik petertodd phantomcircuit promag provoostenator ryanofsky sdaftuar sipa vasild
558 2021-10-07T19:00:56  <achow101> hi
559 2021-10-07T19:01:00  <laanwj> no bot today, apparently
560 2021-10-07T19:01:04  <michaelfolkson> hi
561 2021-10-07T19:01:05  <darosior> hi
562 2021-10-07T19:01:11  <jarolrod> Hi
563 2021-10-07T19:01:13  <meshcollider> hi
564 2021-10-07T19:01:19  <hebasto> hi
565 2021-10-07T19:01:48  <kvaciral[m]> hi
566 2021-10-07T19:01:59  <laanwj> doesn't look like any topics have been proposed for this week (use #proposedmeetingtopic to propose topics you want to discuss in the meeting)
567 2021-10-07T19:02:01  <laanwj> any last minute ones?
568 2021-10-07T19:02:39  <laanwj> i think we should cancel the IRC meeting next week due to the IRL coredev meeting
569 2021-10-07T19:02:49  <jeremyrubin> disagree
570 2021-10-07T19:03:10  <jeremyrubin> i'd like to move some things onto blockers
571 2021-10-07T19:03:14  <jeremyrubin> err priority
572 2021-10-07T19:03:26  <laanwj> well, i'm not going to chair it, feel free to meet anyway
573 2021-10-07T19:03:33  <jeremyrubin> kk
574 2021-10-07T19:03:54  <jeremyrubin> also won't be at IRL i think :(
575 2021-10-07T19:04:04  <jeremyrubin> #topic high priority for review
576 2021-10-07T19:04:08  <laanwj> eh,
577 2021-10-07T19:04:20  <laanwj> please leave that to me
578 2021-10-07T19:04:37  <jeremyrubin> laanwj: "well, i'm not going to chair it, feel free to meet anyway"
579 2021-10-07T19:04:44  <laanwj> jeremyrubin: next week
580 2021-10-07T19:04:44  <cfields> hi
581 2021-10-07T19:04:58  * jeremyrubin slaps forehead
582 2021-10-07T19:05:00  <laanwj> i'm here now why wouldn't i
583 2021-10-07T19:05:02  <michaelfolkson> You can always request things are moved to blockers outside an actual meeting right laanwj?
584 2021-10-07T19:05:06  <jonatack> hi
585 2021-10-07T19:05:08  <cfields> hehe
586 2021-10-07T19:05:09  <laanwj> michaelfolkson: yes, sure
587 2021-10-07T19:05:20  <michaelfolkson> Wouldn't need a meeting next week if that is all jeremyrubin wants to do
588 2021-10-07T19:05:21  <laanwj> anyhow, yes, high priority for review
589 2021-10-07T19:05:24  <jeremyrubin> sorry for the read-o, i thought you were saying cancel right now
590 2021-10-07T19:05:40  <laanwj> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8 9 blockers, 2 chasing concept ACK
591 2021-10-07T19:06:14  <laanwj> anything to add/remove or that is almost ready for merge?
592 2021-10-07T19:06:25  <fjahr> hi
593 2021-10-07T19:06:40  <darosior> #22539 can be removed now it was merged (thanks laanwj for looking at it today btw)
594 2021-10-07T19:06:42  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/22539 | Re-include RBF replacement txs in fee estimation by darosior · Pull Request #22539 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
595 2021-10-07T19:06:52  <michaelfolkson> #22950 is merged too
596 2021-10-07T19:06:54  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/22950 | [p2p] Pimpl AddrMan to abstract implementation details by amitiuttarwar · Pull Request #22950 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
597 2021-10-07T19:07:02  <lightlike> 22950 and 20487 were also merged
598 2021-10-07T19:07:37  <jeremyrubin> i'd like to put #21702 as my high priority -- up to you on removing the other one currently my priority
599 2021-10-07T19:07:39  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21702 | Implement BIP-119 Validation (CheckTemplateVerify) by JeremyRubin · Pull Request #21702 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
600 2021-10-07T19:08:22  <laanwj> thanks, removed the merged ones, 7 blockers, 1 chasing concept ACK left
601 2021-10-07T19:08:25  <jonatack> among the open ones, i'd like to suggest #22702 and #21943 to reviewers, please have a look if you have some bandwidth
602 2021-10-07T19:08:27  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/22702 | Add allocator for node based containers by martinus · Pull Request #22702 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
603 2021-10-07T19:08:30  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21943 | Dedup and RAII-fy the creation of a copy of CConnman::vNodes by vasild · Pull Request #21943 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
604 2021-10-07T19:09:03  <michaelfolkson> A new soft fork is high priority?
605 2021-10-07T19:09:05  *** Talkless <Talkless!~Talkless@mail.dargis.net> has quit IRC (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
606 2021-10-07T19:09:13  <laanwj> jeremyrubin: added
607 2021-10-07T19:09:18  <cfields> "for review"
608 2021-10-07T19:09:44  <jeremyrubin> michaelfolkson: well, high priority is for communicating personal priority + review precedence. afaiu contributors get to pick what they want there
609 2021-10-07T19:09:51  <jonatack> the first for performance and lower memory use, the second appears to reduce some of the most frequent lock contentions
610 2021-10-07T19:10:28  <laanwj> jonatack: intend to look into them
611 2021-10-07T19:11:33  <laanwj> anything else?
612 2021-10-07T19:12:27  <jonatack> laanwj: great!
613 2021-10-07T19:12:30  <laanwj> nothing else to add to high prio? no other topics?
614 2021-10-07T19:12:50  <meshcollider> We could re-visit the discussion about fanquake now we have a lot of ACKs :)
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616 2021-10-07T19:13:28  <jeremyrubin> Is this about increased GH permissions?
617 2021-10-07T19:13:30  <michaelfolkson> What's your best case for the timing of a #21702 merge jeremyrubin? It is an interesting time to put it as your highest priority for review
618 2021-10-07T19:13:32  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21702 | Implement BIP-119 Validation (CheckTemplateVerify) by JeremyRubin · Pull Request #21702 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
619 2021-10-07T19:13:58  <meshcollider> jeremyrubin: yep
620 2021-10-07T19:14:06  <michaelfolkson> Perhaps not the best place for this discussion, probably mailing list is better
621 2021-10-07T19:14:12  <michaelfolkson> For the PR
622 2021-10-07T19:14:19  <michaelfolkson> fanquake discussion sounds good
623 2021-10-07T19:15:31  <michaelfolkson> I think there were a lot of ACKs with two NACKs (from what I saw)
624 2021-10-07T19:15:42  <laanwj> didn't keep a tally but a lot of people voted +1 for fanquake being able to block people from the github, outside the meeting
625 2021-10-07T19:15:44  <laanwj> yes
626 2021-10-07T19:15:52  <meshcollider> FWIW, we had 15 ACKs (darosior, michaelfolkson, jarolrod, fjahr, MarcoFalke, laanwj, dhruv, jnewbery, amiti, ariard, larryruane, sipa, achow101, hebasto, and myself) on IRC in support, while only 2 against (prayank, luke-jr)
627 2021-10-07T19:16:17  <laanwj> meshcollider: ok!
628 2021-10-07T19:16:28  <jeremyrubin> i'll ack --> perhaps we can just keep a log wiki somewhere of who is blocked and why
629 2021-10-07T19:16:41  <luke-jr> laanwj: I don't think the problem is him being able to block spammers, just having full access
630 2021-10-07T19:17:03  <meshcollider> jeremyrubin: I think the only thing anyone is ever blocked for is unintelligible spam
631 2021-10-07T19:17:08  <laanwj> to be clear, we only block, ever, for obvious spamming and scamming attempts
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633 2021-10-07T19:17:22  <luke-jr> meshcollider: I've seen a lot of issues locked to stop non-spam discussion lately
634 2021-10-07T19:17:22  <jeremyrubin> that's fine then, email notification are sufficient IMO
635 2021-10-07T19:17:28  <luke-jr> (but not sure that's fanquake)
636 2021-10-07T19:17:37  <luke-jr> laanwj: that isn't accurate
637 2021-10-07T19:17:49  <meshcollider> luke-jr: I haven't seen that, you'll need to provide specific examples
638 2021-10-07T19:17:54  <luke-jr> unless the distinction is lock vs block
639 2021-10-07T19:18:16  <laanwj> luke-jr: i mean block as in making specific users unable to post or PR to the repository
640 2021-10-07T19:18:16  <luke-jr> meshcollider: I'll bring them up next time; IIRC the last one I noticed was rebroad commenting
641 2021-10-07T19:18:30  <luke-jr> rebroad may be dense sometimes, but he isn't spam
642 2021-10-07T19:18:39  <laanwj> rebroad isn't blocked from the repo !!!
643 2021-10-07T19:19:01  <laanwj> you're bringing other things into this
644 2021-10-07T19:19:10  *** bitcoin-git <bitcoin-git!~bitcoin-g@x0f.org> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
645 2021-10-07T19:19:10  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] dougEfresh opened pull request #23224: [RFC] util: Add suffix byte unit parser for ArgsManager (master...add-args-byte-units) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23224
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647 2021-10-07T19:19:44  <michaelfolkson> I would like more transparency and explanations on why certain issues are locked (if people ask)
648 2021-10-07T19:19:45  <luke-jr> ok, sorry for the confusion
649 2021-10-07T19:19:59  <michaelfolkson> But I don't think that is fanquake specific
650 2021-10-07T19:20:02  <lightlike> luke-jr: the locking of old PRs was done by MacroFalke, see  2021-10-05 09:57 in logs
651 2021-10-07T19:20:18  <jamesob> (ACK fanquake, fwiw)
652 2021-10-07T19:20:22  <laanwj> i think the idea is that people open new issues instead of post on ancient ones
653 2021-10-07T19:20:41  <michaelfolkson> Recently MarcoFalke closed 3 year old issues and told this channel (which was fine I think)
654 2021-10-07T19:20:55  <michaelfolkson> As long as this channel is told and people can enquire why if there is confusion
655 2021-10-07T19:21:03  <laanwj> e.g. some old issues and PRs that have been merged years ago keep accumulating replies that don't really apply to the original topic anymore
656 2021-10-07T19:21:09  <meshcollider> michaelfolkson: He didn't close them, he locked inactive issues which were already closed I think
657 2021-10-07T19:21:30  *** mikehu44 <mikehu44!~quassel@206.189.41.250> has quit IRC (Quit: https://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
658 2021-10-07T19:21:32  <michaelfolkson> meshcollider: Ok sure, thanks for correction
659 2021-10-07T19:21:34  <laanwj> right
660 2021-10-07T19:22:13  <laanwj> in any case i think it makes sense to post why before closing/locking an issue, i tend to to that unless it's obvious
661 2021-10-07T19:22:21  <meshcollider> (locking issues is also a lower permission than maintainer, a number of other users have that permission)
662 2021-10-07T19:22:37  <meshcollider> The "issue management" team
663 2021-10-07T19:22:45  <laanwj> right
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665 2021-10-07T19:23:32  <laanwj> in any case, if your pR or issue is closed and you disagree, bring it up here
666 2021-10-07T19:24:02  <jeremyrubin> maybe we should just declare issue/pr bankruptcy and close everything w/o activity in the last week and allow folks to reopen if they want, that way there's less 'moral judgement' of should be closed or not and we can just clean shop
667 2021-10-07T19:24:16  <laanwj> doing issue management is simply needed in a busy project like this, and i'm sure there are mistakes sometimes
668 2021-10-07T19:24:34  <meshcollider> jeremyrubin: if an issue is closed by a maintainer I don't think the user can re-open it themselves
669 2021-10-07T19:25:32  <jeremyrubin> we could do a 'reopen bot' that checks for a request to reopen as a comment... but i know that's extra work for someone
670 2021-10-07T19:25:40  <laanwj> why would that need a bot
671 2021-10-07T19:25:45  <laanwj> simply ask a maintainer when it happens
672 2021-10-07T19:25:49  <laanwj> or better, simply post here
673 2021-10-07T19:26:05  <jeremyrubin> didn't want to make more work for maintainer as noted by meshcollider, but I agree that works
674 2021-10-07T19:26:09  <jonatack> meshcollider: seems so, i've had pulls unilaterally closed several times this year and had to open a new pull
675 2021-10-07T19:26:49  <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: not all of us have funding to touch every PR once a week; sometimes it takes me months to address things
676 2021-10-07T19:26:59  <laanwj> jonatack: why didn't you ask to reopen them?
677 2021-10-07T19:27:22  <meshcollider> ^
678 2021-10-07T19:27:41  <jonatack> laanwj: wu wei, going with the flow i guess :D
679 2021-10-07T19:27:43  <jeremyrubin> luke-jr: i'm saying do it as a 1x pr-bankruptcy, not every week. (maybe 1x a year?)
680 2021-10-07T19:28:11  <michaelfolkson> It seems communication could be improved in both directions between PR authors and maintainers :)
681 2021-10-07T19:28:23  <michaelfolkson> Definitely ask next time jonatack :)
682 2021-10-07T19:28:31  <meshcollider> I think this is a very separate conversation anyway
683 2021-10-07T19:28:32  <laanwj> jonatack: heh
684 2021-10-07T19:28:57  <jonatack> i mean, it's not important, just confirming meshcollider's statement
685 2021-10-07T19:31:19  <laanwj> i think that concludes the meeting
686 2021-10-07T19:32:13  <laanwj> luke-jr: in your case we know that, it's sometimes different with new contributors that open a PR then never respond again :)
687 2021-10-07T19:32:52  <laanwj> #endmeeting
688 2021-10-07T19:33:00  <laanwj> oh, yeah, no bot
689 2021-10-07T19:33:18  <cfields> ## meep morp, meeting adjourned.
690 2021-10-07T19:33:38  <laanwj> :D
691 2021-10-07T19:34:01  <jeremyrubin> michaelfolkson i moved it to my high priority since i'm not going to be able to attend IRL it seems, that was the appropriate other choice for communicating my intent.
692 2021-10-07T19:34:18  <jeremyrubin> there is no specific timeline i have, i'm noting that it would be good to get more eyes on it
693 2021-10-07T19:36:01  <jonatack> yes iirc the guideline has been that anyone can request more or less any pull, the only limit being just normally not more than one at a time of their own
694 2021-10-07T19:37:16  <jeremyrubin> the PR itself contains no deployment params, so is fully revertible. nor does it change any standardness rules. so it'd be fine to merge it (assuming correct) and then discuss potential deployment (as was done with e.g. taproot). i'm not advocating that before technical consensus is reached, just explaining how the software works.
695 2021-10-07T19:38:09  <michaelfolkson> I think at some point there will need to be a discussion on where people are standing on "the next soft fork", possible timing, makeup of it. Ideally that discussion would be put off as long as possible though imo
696 2021-10-07T19:38:31  <michaelfolkson> I suspect there will be some strong disagreements
697 2021-10-07T19:39:21  <laanwj> normally only one per person, we do have two PRs in the list by jeremyrubin now, but i guess the mempool optimization is dissimilar enough it's not really an issue
698 2021-10-07T19:41:01  <jeremyrubin> yep, as noted welcome to remove that if you like. but i don't really have the motivation to push on that one really much further at present, i'm hoping some other contributors will prioritize seeing it through beyond basic maitnenance.
699 2021-10-07T19:41:44  <jeremyrubin> michaelfolkson: can you say more about what you view as this timeline for when things can or cannot be discussed?
700 2021-10-07T19:42:39  <jamesob> laanwj: sorry, missed the beginning of the meeting. can I add #23174 to high prio list?
701 2021-10-07T19:42:41  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/23174 | validation: have LoadBlockIndex account for snapshot use by jamesob · Pull Request #23174 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
702 2021-10-07T19:43:04  <michaelfolkson> jeremyrubin: I can only speak for myself. But putting something as high priority today if the plan is for a soft fork in e.g. 2 years (name a longish period from now) seems bizarre to me. That's why I asked on best case timing
703 2021-10-07T19:44:49  <jamesob> jeremyrubin: I'm definitely in the process of doing a conceptual evaluation of OP_CTV for myself atm - specifically in the context of covenants for vaulting
704 2021-10-07T19:45:27  <michaelfolkson> Anything can be discussed whenever people want to discuss them. But prioritizing is the act of weighing up what is most urgent, important versus other possible priorities
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707 2021-10-07T19:46:43  <_aj_> laanwj: (maybe it would make sense to rename high-pri to "top-pri" as in "this is contributor x's top priority pr")
708 2021-10-07T19:47:23  <jeremyrubin> well, I put it on priority for review since i've been talking with more and more potential users of CTV there seems to be more desire to evaluate it to solve problems (e.g. vaults) as well as to know what kind of timeline there could be. a timeline can't evolve until there's been enough core review.
709 2021-10-07T19:48:09  <jonatack> laanwj: oh heh, i didn't see there were two now, wasn't commenting on that :D   there have been other times as well if i'm not misremembering
710 2021-10-07T19:48:25  <jeremyrubin> in the conversations i've been having with orgs they seem to want to solve problems on a 6 months to 1 year horizon, beyond that is too far out for them to dedicate resources
711 2021-10-07T19:48:29  <michaelfolkson> I'm definitely following OP_CTV and have recently discussed it at multiple Socratics, it is really interesting. I just think we potentially strongly disagree on timing and how much time should be given to weighing up what should be in a covenant/vault soft fork before it happens
712 2021-10-07T19:48:55  <michaelfolkson> But that's only my personal view, I have no idea what other people think
713 2021-10-07T19:50:15  <michaelfolkson> Anyway, gtg
714 2021-10-07T19:50:59  <jeremyrubin> i think the orgs i've mostly been speaking to would strongly like *something* in place that's studied to be safe sooner than later so that they can work on getting tech out to end users based on it.
715 2021-10-07T19:51:56  <jeremyrubin> a better thing can always be added later, but there's a preference to have more options on the table now than there is to design the 'one covnenant system to rule them all'.
716 2021-10-07T19:52:50  <jeremyrubin> i've not been hyping it as an argument for deployement since i think it could still use more support and review, but there's a list i'm tracking on utxos.org/signals for orgs/ppl that would like ctv
717 2021-10-07T19:52:51  <jamesob> e.g. vaulting is really compelling for custody operations, and CTV-style covenants could add a ton of security in short order by enabling better forms of them. alternative is doing presigned txns, but proving key deletion is difficult.
718 2021-10-07T19:56:21  <jeremyrubin> the other one i've seen a lot of excitement for is batch channel creation.
719 2021-10-07T19:57:00  <jeremyrubin> especially with the El Salvador stuff people are trying to figure out better ways to create a large number of channels w/o resorting to more custodial setups
720 2021-10-07T19:57:10  <_aj_> jeremyrubin: hmm, bip 119 has (expired) activation parameters currently?
721 2021-10-07T19:57:25  <jaybny2> think op_ctv doesnt go far enough - but its a good first step, and hope more can eventually more can part of the next soft fork including op_apo
722 2021-10-07T19:58:10  <jeremyrubin> _aj_: ah yeah i think when i put that in the BIP there may not have been the disabled specific flags. that's that the PR currently uses
723 2021-10-07T19:58:16  <jeremyrubin> I can update to copy what's in the PR
724 2021-10-07T19:59:19  <_aj_> jeremyrubin, jamesob: fwiw, when last i looked at the bip, and skimmed the code, it seemed like the simplest possible implmentation of the idea, which resolved the concerns i'd had with earlier versions. i think i'd nitpick how the hash is constructed, but otherwise if the code isn't buggy, it seems plausible
725 2021-10-07T19:59:44  <jeremyrubin> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/118ff53bab10120943d987b4d3fb404c76922765/src/chainparams.cpp#L95
726 2021-10-07T19:59:58  <jeremyrubin> we also didn't have speedy trial then, which we do now :)
727 2021-10-07T20:00:48  <_aj_> jeremyrubin, jamesob: i think sighash_group would be a big bang-for-buck feature so it's highest on my list atm (very subject to change), and i'm curious as to whether ctv and sighash_group could be made compatible, so that the same technique to combine sighash_group payments into a single tx could allow combining multiple ctv paymnts into a single tx
728 2021-10-07T20:01:25  <jamesob> I'm interested in TLUV and any other idea for covenant implementations, but they seem much more general/in-direct/hard to assess for code janitors like me. I think I'm Concept ACK unless I hear reasonable concerns about safety from some of the devs here with grayer beards than mine
729 2021-10-07T20:02:26  <jamesob> _aj_ where can I read about sighash_group? Must've missed the ML post
730 2021-10-07T20:02:29  <_aj_> (i think eltoo channels might need ANYPREVOUT and SIGHASH_GROUP, and eltoo factories (3+ participants who can establish off-chain internal channels amongst subgroups) might also need TLUV)
731 2021-10-07T20:02:32  <jeremyrubin> it's a good question. my preferred technique for that would be to do it as follow on whenever bundles are sufficiently reviewed, and then enable it as a 33 byte hash for CTV only under taproot where the annex contains the bitmask?
732 2021-10-07T20:03:00  <laanwj> jamesob: added
733 2021-10-07T20:03:06  <jamesob> laanwj: thanks
734 2021-10-07T20:04:37  <jeremyrubin> i think the thing that concerns me re bundles and CTV is that it limits the benefits of caching hashes so i'd be worried if the bundle spec were not per input (e.g., bundle spec tag on hash could lead to quad hashing)
735 2021-10-07T20:05:00  <_aj_> jeremyrubin: yeah, that makes sense to me too. i think CTV is philosophically "SIGHASH_ANYPREVOUT" but without bothering to do the signature, so this would be "SIGHASH_ANYPREVOUT | SIGHASH_GROUP" again without doing the signature, so you'd just be adding a sighash-byte at the start/end to differentiate just like for sigs
736 2021-10-07T20:05:16  <jeremyrubin> and i also am curious about thinking through allowing overlapping bundles and if there is any merit or use of that
737 2021-10-07T20:05:30  <_aj_> sighash_group specifies no overlapping bundles
738 2021-10-07T20:06:03  <jeremyrubin> _aj_ is there a link for most recent thinking on sighash group for jamesob?
739 2021-10-07T20:06:29  <_aj_> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-July/019243.html
740 2021-10-07T20:06:37  <_aj_> took me a while to find it
741 2021-10-07T20:06:42  <jamesob> _aj_ jeremyrubin: thanks
742 2021-10-07T20:06:56  <jamesob> yeah neither duckduckgo nor google turn up results
743 2021-10-07T20:07:04  <jeremyrubin> _aj_ btw i don't care much about the specific hash construction if you have thoughts on that.
744 2021-10-07T20:08:31  <jeremyrubin> i think there are tradeoffs any way you define it, but there absolutely could be some benefit to different orders interactions with CAT or SHASTREAM or caching or something
745 2021-10-07T20:08:32  <_aj_> jeremyrubin: i think my thoughts were just "should use tagged hashes, and maybe otherwise be more similar to taproot than to segwitv0/whatever" but i haven't actually compared or thought about any pitfalls
746 2021-10-07T20:08:37  <jeremyrubin> Ah
747 2021-10-07T20:08:58  <jeremyrubin> the main reason not to do a tagged hash is to make it easier to work with on the stack if there is a future CAT fork
748 2021-10-07T20:09:10  <_aj_> jeremyrubin: pretty easy to construct tagged hashes with CAT though
749 2021-10-07T20:09:25  <jeremyrubin> at cost of bigger txns
750 2021-10-07T20:09:43  <laanwj> _aj_: we couldrename it, but i'm not sure top-prio versus high-prio is that much clearer
751 2021-10-07T20:09:59  <jeremyrubin> is there a benefit to the safety of using tagged hashes?
752 2021-10-07T20:10:08  <_aj_> laanwj: yeah, i put brackets around things that probably aren't good ideas :)
753 2021-10-07T20:11:05  <_aj_> laanwj: at least that's a helpful way of thinking about it for me though -- "high pri" sounds like something the "project" thinks is high priority to me, especially if you're a newb; realising it's only indiviual people's things requires a moment of insight...
754 2021-10-07T20:12:10  <_aj_> jeremyrubin: when you're not trying to sign it, perhaps not?
755 2021-10-07T20:12:20  <jeremyrubin> i was actually thinking w.r.t. hash construction that doing merkle trees of the outputs would be interesting, but would be very bikesheddy given it would presuppose how some mtree manipulation code would work (and could just be done as a tagged version).
756 2021-10-07T20:12:27  <laanwj> it might help that the sub-category is called 'blockers', it would be slightly strange if they were blocking the entire project and not one person's work, but yes i understand the confusion
757 2021-10-07T20:12:28  <jamesob> laanwj _aj_: whatever the list is called, it's really just "where do I look for the next thing to review"
758 2021-10-07T20:12:53  <laanwj> jamesob: right, that's the idea, just to give people ideas what to review
759 2021-10-07T20:12:57  <jeremyrubin> _aj_ yeah i did consider it a while back and couldn't think of any benefit and only a mild annoyance in the future so i did a plain hash
760 2021-10-07T20:14:12  <_aj_> jeremyrubin: maybe if we also had checkdatasig or whatever? though then it'd presumably be people signing components that get CATed to make the hash anyway (if you were signing the full ctv hash, might as well just use checksig/anyprevout, presumably)
761 2021-10-07T20:15:34  <_aj_> jeremyrubin: you're not on wizards?
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763 2021-10-07T20:19:14  <jeremyrubin> oops
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765 2021-10-07T20:20:59  <jeremyrubin> _aj_ the checkdatasig thing is interesting, you can actually do eltoo like thing with just CTV and CDS
766 2021-10-07T20:21:13  <jeremyrubin> so it is possible you'd want to sign hashes?
767 2021-10-07T20:21:41  <jeremyrubin> That said, it depends if CDS gets a 'raw' API (sign arbitrary message) or if the message to CDS gets hashed (and therefore, can have it's own tag)
768 2021-10-07T20:21:54  <_aj_> jeremyrubin: that's just emulating ANYPREVOUT because CTV has it (more or less) but CHECKSIG doesn't, no?
769 2021-10-07T20:22:28  <jeremyrubin> can you reword that? what's it?
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771 2021-10-07T20:23:02  <_aj_> jeremyrubin: that's just emulating CHECKSIG-ANYPREVOUT because CTV has ANYPREVOUT (more or less) but CHECKSIG doesn't, no?
772 2021-10-07T20:24:05  <jeremyrubin> ah, yes
773 2021-10-07T20:24:35  <jeremyrubin> if you do <H> CTV <PK> CHECKSIGFROMSTACKVERIFY you basically get something that's like anyprevout
774 2021-10-07T20:24:45  <jeremyrubin> the main difference is no sighash flags
775 2021-10-07T20:25:25  <jeremyrubin> but you can always e.g. sign a couple copies of the txn with extra *inputs* if you want (no adding outputs)
776 2021-10-07T20:25:45  <jeremyrubin> then you can do eltoo like stuff with
777 2021-10-07T20:26:11  <jeremyrubin> <H> CTV <PKu> CHECKSIGFROMSTACKVERIFY<N+1> CLTV
778 2021-10-07T20:26:33  <jeremyrubin> which gives you the ratchet to burn old H's signed by PKu
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781 2021-10-07T20:28:01  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] katesalazar opened pull request #23225: Reject float at satoshi_round  (master...20211006) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23225
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788 2021-10-07T20:39:35  <gene> sipa: after messing around with mull for mutation tests, not sure if it's suitable for CI
789 2021-10-07T20:40:35  <gene> even running mull-cxx (mutation compiler) with only one worker takes 12-16G ram
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869 2021-10-07T21:40:29  <michaelfolkson> laanwj: Perhaps the description for High-priority for review could be added to
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871 2021-10-07T21:41:03  <michaelfolkson> Currently it is "These either block other important work in progress, or are necessary for backport to a minor release. Also includes a list of PRs that are in a mergeable state."
872 2021-10-07T21:42:12  <michaelfolkson> Something like "from the PR author's perspective" after "block other important work in progress"
873 2021-10-07T21:42:41  <michaelfolkson> The description sounds like it is high priority for the project
874 2021-10-07T21:43:55  <michaelfolkson> Some may think it is (e.g. the PR author) but to have a new soft fork as a high priority for the project is at least disputable imo
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878 2021-10-07T21:54:00  <jeremyrubin> what is high priority for the project that's indisputible?
879 2021-10-07T21:55:35  <michaelfolkson> I guess nothing hence my suggested wording change
880 2021-10-07T21:58:40  <michaelfolkson> Putting a consensus change as high priority could certainly give the wrong impression to an outside observer (as others have pointed out)
881 2021-10-07T22:02:33  <michaelfolkson> I don't even know if it can be considered for merging until there is community consensus on it being in the next soft fork can it? If it can't be considered for merging it can't be high priority for the project
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883 2021-10-07T22:06:49  <lightlike> how could a community consensus form if not through peer review? It's called "high priority for review" after all, not "high priority for merge"
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886 2021-10-07T22:11:26  <michaelfolkson> lightlike: I'm not sure whether the only way you get peer review is by marking it as "high priority for review" and a "blocker" on Bitcoin Core
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889 2021-10-07T22:16:50  <michaelfolkson> I just think there is (potentially) a fundamental disagreement on how we consider consensus changes in future. Merging a consensus change PR once it has ~5 ACKs on a Core PR doesn't seem to be the right process for a consensus change to me
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896 2021-10-07T22:33:14  <TallTim> Perhaps changes should be factored as to their economic impact, given that this is a financial system after all. UI/UX? Probably minor. Protcol level? Bigger impact.
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899 2021-10-07T22:41:00  <michaelfolkson> I would factor it by risk personally. And there is nothing more risky than a soft fork other than perhaps a hard fork. Doing one every time a consensus change PR gets ~5 ACKs on the Core repo sounds crazy to me
900 2021-10-07T22:41:42  <michaelfolkson> But maybe we have to learn that lesson in real life
901 2021-10-07T22:41:51  <jeremyrubin> tbh soft forks aren't particularly more or less dangerous than other changes we make to bitcoin
902 2021-10-07T22:41:59  <jeremyrubin> all changes have risks and rewards
903 2021-10-07T22:42:46  <jeremyrubin> think of it like skydiving vs driving
904 2021-10-07T22:42:57  <michaelfolkson> I couldn't disagree any more strongly. Even with a soft fork that had overwhelming community consensus (Taproot) activation was concerning
905 2021-10-07T22:43:20  <jeremyrubin> skydiving isn't more dangerous than driving -- did you know that? it's actually safer
906 2021-10-07T22:43:41  <michaelfolkson> And that was the safest it gets. Couldn't have had any more community consensus
907 2021-10-07T22:44:12  <jeremyrubin> but obviously jumping out of a plane is more dangerous than driving a car
908 2021-10-07T22:44:27  <michaelfolkson> Maybe we just have to have that disputed soft fork so we can learn that lesson
909 2021-10-07T22:44:32  <jeremyrubin> but when you jump out of a plane you take more precautions than driving, which makes it safer
910 2021-10-07T22:45:12  <jeremyrubin> so i think you're having the reaction that "it's jumping out of a plane it's so unsafe" and ignoring the fact that we're driving day by day by day
911 2021-10-07T22:45:30  <jeremyrubin> courting review is a part of "packing the chute", so is the fact that we do signalled activation for soft forks
912 2021-10-07T22:46:01  <jeremyrubin> i think that leads to the way that we do soft forks for bitcoin being no more unsafe than other changes we make
913 2021-10-07T22:46:48  <michaelfolkson> I just think the above is nonsense. But I'm not going to be able to convince you
914 2021-10-07T22:48:03  <michaelfolkson> Either a consensus change has overwhelming community buy in or you take shortcuts and try to get it in with a few reviews on the Core repo
915 2021-10-07T22:48:19  <jeremyrubin> i think what you're arguing for is tantamount to just shouting that we shouldn't even think about going for another jump because sky diving is so scary when you think about it, and telling people to not bother checking the chute is proprely packed because we shouldn't go because it's so dangerous.
916 2021-10-07T22:48:31  <jeremyrubin> there's nothing wrong with checking that the chute is properly packed
917 2021-10-07T22:48:52  <jeremyrubin> there's nothing wrong with reviewing the code for ctv
918 2021-10-07T22:50:02  <jeremyrubin> i'm really not sure what shortcuts you're accusing me of. i am requesting more reviewers and you are saying that i shouldn't request more reviewers because i'm trying to get it merged with few reviewers
919 2021-10-07T22:50:22  <jeremyrubin> i think it's utter nonsense and i don't get why you're pursuing these convoluted arguments
920 2021-10-07T22:51:58  <michaelfolkson> I don't know how we avoid the disputed soft fork then
921 2021-10-07T22:53:00  <jeremyrubin> i think you're manufacturing factionalized controversy for controversy's sake
922 2021-10-07T22:53:03  <michaelfolkson> I think there should be overwhelming community consensus on what is in the soft fork. You think you do a soft fork whenever a consensus change gets merged into Core
923 2021-10-07T22:53:10  <michaelfolkson> (I think)
924 2021-10-07T22:53:18  <jeremyrubin> i don't see where you are getting that from
925 2021-10-07T22:53:29  <jeremyrubin> the PR has no activation parameters in it
926 2021-10-07T22:53:45  <michaelfolkson> Right but once merged into Core the next phase is activation
927 2021-10-07T22:54:16  <jeremyrubin> presumably core doesn't merge activation parameters until there's community consensus.
928 2021-10-07T22:54:42  <jeremyrubin> even then, soft forks have signals which can be used as a second safety check for community consensus
929 2021-10-07T22:54:54  <michaelfolkson> I don't think it should merge consensus code changes until there's community consensus
930 2021-10-07T22:55:11  <jeremyrubin> we do that pretty often
931 2021-10-07T22:55:30  <jeremyrubin> many changes to bitcoin core affect the consensus code
932 2021-10-07T22:55:40  <jeremyrubin> we hope in ways that are not observable, of course
933 2021-10-07T22:55:51  <jeremyrubin> similar to an un activated soft fork, which should not be observable
934 2021-10-07T22:58:06  <jeremyrubin> michaelfolkson was there overwhelming community consensus for taproot? for segwit? for CSV? etc?
935 2021-10-07T22:58:17  <jeremyrubin> can you quantify or qualify what that means?
936 2021-10-07T22:58:44  <michaelfolkson> For Taproot, yes. I think only contributor I'm aware who NACKed it was on quantum concerns
937 2021-10-07T22:58:59  <michaelfolkson> That is a very high bar
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939 2021-10-07T22:59:35  <jeremyrubin> so the bar for "overhwhelming community consensus" is just what contributors think?
940 2021-10-07T23:00:33  <jeremyrubin> it's my recollection there were actually a lot of NACKs for the activation mechanism (you know, the actual fork part)
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942 2021-10-07T23:00:45  <jeremyrubin> to the point where a potentially incompatible client was released
943 2021-10-07T23:01:03  <michaelfolkson> That was activation. And that will happen for the next soft fork too
944 2021-10-07T23:01:08  <jeremyrubin> so isn't that actually a low bar then?
945 2021-10-07T23:01:20  <jeremyrubin> well activation code is definitionally consensus code
946 2021-10-07T23:01:35  <michaelfolkson> So add a disputed soft fork into the mix of activation concerns and you've got quite the bonfire
947 2021-10-07T23:02:46  <jeremyrubin> are there plans to not reuse speedy trial again? it seemed to go very smoothly
948 2021-10-07T23:03:32  <michaelfolkson> It hasn't been discussed. I would guess it will be used next time but I'm sure we'll have similar dynamics around the alternative client
949 2021-10-07T23:03:46  <michaelfolkson> (or at least I'm not aware it has been discussed)
950 2021-10-07T23:07:28  <jeremyrubin> so you think taproot had community consensus, but what about segwit?
951 2021-10-07T23:08:33  <michaelfolkson> Speedy Trial seemed to go smoothly for a soft fork with one contributor NACK and although harder to measure what seemed like overwhelming community consensus. I didn't see (m)any people saying Taproot shouldn't be activated
952 2021-10-07T23:09:50  <michaelfolkson> SegWit was part of a block size, ASICBoost, hard fork war. I'm not sure that is what we should be comfortable with for the next soft fork
953 2021-10-07T23:12:27  <jeremyrubin> counterpoint, not getting segwit would have been pretty bad for bitcoin overall, no? should we let 'bullies' who don't want bitcoin to progress to roadblock the rest of the network? if we can't get an important upgrade in the face of bad actors, that sounds bad for bitcoin...
954 2021-10-07T23:13:53  <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: yet you wanted to empower such bullies ;)
955 2021-10-07T23:14:32  <BlueMatt> can y'all take this to a more appropriate forum? this is not the right place.
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