1 2021-10-13T00:00:15  <sipa> which on its turn invokes the normal autogen/configure/make build scripts
  2 2021-10-13T00:00:34  <sipa> (which again, you can invoke yourself, if you just want to build for development, and that's also what i'd recommend)
  3 2021-10-13T00:00:45  <fanquake> note that depends itself is also deterministic, just that if you use it locally it's not deterministic against other builders
  4 2021-10-13T00:00:54  <sipa> ^
  5 2021-10-13T00:00:55  <davidbak> just curious - are there any discussions anywhere on why the build system is the way it is?
  6 2021-10-13T00:01:00  <fanquake> due to differing toolchains etc
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  8 2021-10-13T00:01:22  <sipa> guix is _just_ replacing an older system called gitian
  9 2021-10-13T00:01:40  <sipa> which pretty much was the first thing to even try reproducible building anywhere
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 11 2021-10-13T00:02:15  <sipa> for bitcoin core we really want reproducibility, because of the view that maintainers should be trusted the least amount possible
 12 2021-10-13T00:02:41  <sipa> e.g. no auto-update (because whoever has the keys to push an update could hijact the network's consensus rules, pretty much)
 13 2021-10-13T00:03:17  <sipa> the reproducibility helps, because it means we can commit to specific published binaries, and anyone can attest to the fact that these binaries indeed correspond to the source code available on github (and mirrors)
 14 2021-10-13T00:03:52  <sipa> in fact, the release process involves various contributors publishing such GPG attestations
 15 2021-10-13T00:04:41  <davidbak> well reproducible builds are good for many reasons, bitcoin obviously depends on that for trust (and reliability of the consensus) but over the years there _have_ been other tools developed, that have gained traction in the overall C++ community, that address that well. As a newbie I AM NOT COMING IN AND CRITICIZING or saying "Why aren't you doing thing in this obvious better way, you old fogies!?" - but as a very long
 16 2021-10-13T00:04:41  <davidbak> time C++ dev with lots of commercial experience yet still not UNIVERSAL development experience I'm always look to learn the pros/cons of different programming styles, software engineering techniques, build systems, etc etc.
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 18 2021-10-13T00:05:09  <fanquake> reproducibility is also good because the idea that you could end up with two differently functioning monies from the same source code is just nuts
 19 2021-10-13T00:05:41  <sipa> davidbak: as far as i know, actual reproducible builds in C++ is pretty recent
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 21 2021-10-13T00:06:16  <sipa> until a few years ago, GCC used randomness at compile time; now it exposes a way to set a specific seed for that randomness
 22 2021-10-13T00:06:40  <gene> was the randomness used for name mangling?
 23 2021-10-13T00:07:01  <gene> s/was/is
 24 2021-10-13T00:07:07  <sipa> bitcoin core contributors have contributed patches to various building/system tools to make sure nothing breaks the reproducibility
 25 2021-10-13T00:07:15  <davidbak> oh yeah, because just to name one thing, compilers/linkers love to insert timestamps into object files and binary executables, but the _goal_ has been around since embedded systems started using C a long long time ago and people addressed it in various ways: locking down toolchains, locking down external libraries, etc. etc. all trying to reach accountability - even if bit-for-bit binary reproducibility wasn't achievable.
 26 2021-10-13T00:08:15  <davidbak> i do get all this - and plenty of people are working on reproducible builds, not just bitcoin - and it still isn't available out-of-the-box without work
 27 2021-10-13T00:08:29  <davidbak> but, _because_ there are other people working on it, there are multiple solutions.
 28 2021-10-13T00:08:42  <sipa> i don't really know of any off the shelf usable ones for us
 29 2021-10-13T00:09:15  <sipa> i mean, besides just running the build in a fixed container - which is what we used to do with gitian
 30 2021-10-13T00:09:32  <sipa> but then you get the question of where the container comes from etc
 31 2021-10-13T00:10:01  <davidbak> well as far as _build systems_ go: bazel, to name one, can give you reproducible builds given that your toolchains can give you reproducible builds.  it's functional, like Nix, and requires all dependencies to be explicit and locked down, and it really works.
 32 2021-10-13T00:10:13  <fanquake> There may be multiple solutions, but Bitcoin Core has had a solution to this problem for ~10 years now, and Guix is a good next step.
 33 2021-10-13T00:10:13  <sipa> davidbak: oh, that's not the issue
 34 2021-10-13T00:10:14  <davidbak> but i'm not proselytizing, i'm just curious/interested.
 35 2021-10-13T00:10:34  <davidbak> what's not the issue?
 36 2021-10-13T00:10:35  <sipa> davidbak: that won't give you reproducibility between different systems that have different compiler versions
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 38 2021-10-13T00:11:15  <davidbak> how does the bitcoin build system give you that?
 39 2021-10-13T00:11:37  <davidbak> an arm build is obviously different than an x64 build, a windows build different from a ubuntu build ...
 40 2021-10-13T00:11:55  <sipa> davidbak: guix gives us that, because it compiles the compiler, bootstrapped from the smallest possible piece of binary that exists (to the best of my knowledge)
 41 2021-10-13T00:12:04  <sipa> at an exactly specified version
 42 2021-10-13T00:12:18  <sipa> along with all system libraries etc
 43 2021-10-13T00:12:30  <fanquake> and then all of our dependencies are *locked down* in our depends system
 44 2021-10-13T00:12:30  <gene> isn't Bazel a facebook product?
 45 2021-10-13T00:12:56  <sipa> i think bazel would be a reasonable alternative for our hand-rolled depends system
 46 2021-10-13T00:13:39  <sipa> except that it'd imply (yet) another build system to maintain, as afaik it doesn't integrate with autotools/configure/makefiles
 47 2021-10-13T00:13:41  <davidbak> bazel is the open-source version of a google internal product - though well supported (and most of the contributors are googlers afaik) facebook has a _different_ c++ build system, called buck.  As I said, there's a _lot_ of work in this space
 48 2021-10-13T00:13:59  <sipa> in any case, this isn't the hard part
 49 2021-10-13T00:14:00  <davidbak> no, bazel is a world of its own, doesn't like to operate with any other build system at all.  It's all or nothing, pretty much!
 50 2021-10-13T00:14:14  <davidbak> so, as I said, I'm not shilling for it.  Just wanted to know the tradeoffs.
 51 2021-10-13T00:14:22  <sipa> the hard part is an exactly reproducible build environment
 52 2021-10-13T00:14:54  <davidbak> And if guix builds from the compiler - or even more importantly, the libc/libc++ layer UP, that's pretty damn locked down, and i don't think that's a typical use case for bazel (possibly not even supported, don't know)
 53 2021-10-13T00:15:07  <davidbak> (i mean, _including_+ the libc/libc++ layer)
 54 2021-10-13T00:15:52  <sipa> davidbak: well, yes, i'm not lying when i say you and i, on our home desktop systems, on different linux distributions, with different versions of everything, will very realistically succeed in producing bit for bit identical bitcoin core binaries if you run the guix-based build system
 55 2021-10-13T00:16:08  <davidbak> i'm definitely looking forward to seeing that happen!
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 57 2021-10-13T00:16:16  <sipa> well, it's how it works today
 58 2021-10-13T00:16:23  <sipa> 22.0 was built and released this way
 59 2021-10-13T00:16:39  <davidbak> i get you that it works today!  and when I get it running here on my system, I'll have seen it happen!
 60 2021-10-13T00:16:47  <sipa> ah, yes, i encourage you try
 61 2021-10-13T00:17:28  <fanquake> apt install guix && ./contrib/guix/guix-build and you should be good to go
 62 2021-10-13T00:17:51  <sipa> oh, and about the different systems: everything is cross-compiled from the Linux environment guix offers (including windows binaries using mingw, and macOS binaries using apple-patched clang)
 63 2021-10-13T00:19:01  <davidbak> amazing! well, off I go to build a VM for it (as a first cut, not ready to try it in WSL until it's working "native") and that's interesting about the windows binaries too - BUT!!!
 64 2021-10-13T00:19:35  <sipa> ha, i wonder if guix would work in WSL... not unreasonable that it does, i think
 65 2021-10-13T00:19:42  <sipa> (but i have no clue)
 66 2021-10-13T00:20:13  <davidbak> but w.r.t. the windows build - there are instructions for building with Visual Studio/MSVC. Which is obviously NOT mingw.  So if you build that way (for development purposes) that's not going to be binary compatible.  So that must be for developers only, not for release?
 67 2021-10-13T00:20:22  <sipa> exactly
 68 2021-10-13T00:20:29  <davidbak> ok
 69 2021-10-13T00:21:17  <sipa> it's not too different from just being able to build with make, using whatever compiler you want (e.g. clang on linux, while the release binaries are built with gcc)
 70 2021-10-13T00:22:03  <sipa> plus, having CI test more build environments than just those used for release builds helps find certain issues w.r.t. language violations in the codebase or unintentional architecture dependencies
 71 2021-10-13T00:22:55  <sipa> at some point we had a CI target that involved building for, and testing in a CPU emulator, an s390x target, because it's big endian
 72 2021-10-13T00:23:00  <sipa> but iirc it was too slow
 73 2021-10-13T00:23:05  <davidbak> Yes.  Different compilers == different warnings/errors, especially as the C++ standard allows a bunch of stuff to go undiagnosed and be "implementation defined" but building with multiple compilers increases your chance that at least one of them will warn you of a problem like that.
 74 2021-10-13T00:23:56  <davidbak> Huh.  So the mainframe guys wanting to run bitcoin core on big iron might run into incompatibilities, eh?
 75 2021-10-13T00:24:19  <davidbak> Can't say that's a use case I personally would spend much time on ....
 76 2021-10-13T00:24:32  <sipa> no, neither am i
 77 2021-10-13T00:25:09  <sipa> but i am interested in knowing that our codebase doesn't unintentionally assume little-endianness anywhere, because if it does, that's a red flag for undefined/unspecified behavior
 78 2021-10-13T00:25:14  <davidbak> ok, i'm off  - I appreciate your time (and of course, your information)!
 79 2021-10-13T00:25:20  <sipa> yw
 80 2021-10-13T00:25:32  <davidbak> yes - but ... i'm sure there's a static analysis for that _somewhere_?
 81 2021-10-13T00:26:44  <sipa> yes, presumably, but afaik most of those tools are proprietary
 82 2021-10-13T00:27:03  <davidbak> one more comment: i especially find the endianness issue funny for bitcoin because in addition to the usual on-the-wire format vs. internal representation issues you typically get bitcoin also has - for some unknown historical reason? - the issue of people _visualizing_ addresses/hashes/etc differently than the internal representation - how the heck did _that_ happen?
 83 2021-10-13T00:27:05  <sipa> building/testing with sanitizers also catches most of such issues
 84 2021-10-13T00:27:21  <sipa> but who knows - maybe not everything
 85 2021-10-13T00:27:31  <sipa> davidbak: it's actually perfectly consistent if you know the history ;)
 86 2021-10-13T00:28:12  <sipa> bitcoin historically treated all byte arrays as little-endian numbers
 87 2021-10-13T00:28:37  <sipa> it also treated SHA256 as a black box - something you send bytes, and it gives 32 bytes - which are then interpreted as a little-endian number (just like anything else)
 88 2021-10-13T00:28:50  <davidbak> (history: looking forward to the "retrospective" papers/books being published about 10yrs from now ...)
 89 2021-10-13T00:29:07  <davidbak> ok, so far you're all little-endian THE WAY IT SHOULD BE! - what's next in the history?
 90 2021-10-13T00:29:16  <sipa> the same is true for other cryptographic constructs (e.g. ECDSA signatures contain big-endian serialized numbers, but from bitcoin's perspective, they're just byte arrays)
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 92 2021-10-13T00:29:54  <sipa> now, in block hashes, the hash is actually interpreted as a number, in order to compare it with the target (for proof of work)
 93 2021-10-13T00:30:21  <sipa> so the _number_ was printed for human consumption - who typically want largest digit first
 94 2021-10-13T00:30:57  <sipa> if you forget that it's a number, a think it's a hexdump of a 32-byte array, that means it indeed looks swapped compared to the wire format
 95 2021-10-13T00:31:10  <sipa> but if you think of it as a hex number for human consumption, it's exactly right
 96 2021-10-13T00:31:43  <sipa> ... of course, that method of formatting hashes was then used for everything, including txids and many other things, where the numerical representation is meaningless
 97 2021-10-13T00:31:49  <davidbak> so the confusion is that the consumers (I guess) of hashes for the purpose of looking at "how many leading zeros" they have (already an approximation to the truth) aren't PROGRAMMERS!
 98 2021-10-13T00:32:00  <sipa> i like your thinking
 99 2021-10-13T00:32:17  <davidbak> sadly, it's the only thinking I have ...
100 2021-10-13T00:32:48  <sipa> there is AFAIK one exception to "everything is little endian"... the TCP port rumoured in addr messages on the network is big endian
101 2021-10-13T00:32:58  <davidbak> I've been thinking this way for 50 years, ever since my 9th grade math teacher - a laid-off rocket engineer (seriously) - got bored teaching math one day and gave us a 45 minute class in FORTRAN.
102 2021-10-13T00:33:16  <sipa> because network stuff is always big endian for some reason, and i think the original code just copied the bytes
103 2021-10-13T00:33:32  <davidbak> network is always bigendian for historical reasons
104 2021-10-13T00:33:39  <sipa> yeah, i'm aware
105 2021-10-13T00:33:48  <sipa> ntohs and friends make that clear
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107 2021-10-13T00:34:28  <davidbak> anyway, gotta go - speak to you again after I get this set up ... or ... if I run into trouble!
108 2021-10-13T00:34:34  <sipa> cya
109 2021-10-13T00:34:44  <gene> ./
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182 2021-10-13T03:33:54  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/810ce36d54e4...39872f5ed43d
183 2021-10-13T03:33:54  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 38fd709 fanquake: build: make --enable-werror just -Werror
184 2021-10-13T03:33:54  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 39872f5 fanquake: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#23149: build: make --enable-werror just -Werror
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187 2021-10-13T03:34:11  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #23149: build: make --enable-werror just -Werror (master...make_enable_werror_full_werror) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23149
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242 2021-10-13T05:20:56  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/39872f5ed43d...a9f642870849
243 2021-10-13T05:20:56  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 7e88f61 Russell Yanofsky: multiprocess: Make interfaces::Chain::isTaprootActive non-const
244 2021-10-13T05:20:56  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master a9f6428 MarcoFalke: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#23003: multiprocess: Make interfaces::Chain::isTapro...
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247 2021-10-13T05:21:13  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #23003: multiprocess: Make interfaces::Chain::isTaprootActive non-const (master...pr/ipc-tapc) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23003
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254 2021-10-13T05:34:42  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #23269: build: remove redundant warning flags (master...further_flag_cleanup) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23269
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293 2021-10-13T07:11:07  <prayank> sipa: Are there any changes required in https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin-seeder/ based on https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/23193 ?
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456 2021-10-13T10:06:45  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Empact opened pull request #23270: Bump minimum python version to 3.7 (master...2021-10-python-3.7) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23270
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502 2021-10-13T11:49:51  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 4 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/a9f642870849...28d5074343d2
503 2021-10-13T11:49:51  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa53d3d MarcoFalke: test: Check that bitcoin-tx accepts whitespace around sequence id and mult...
504 2021-10-13T11:49:51  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fafab8e MarcoFalke: bitcoin-tx: Reject non-integral and out of range sequence ids
505 2021-10-13T11:49:51  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa6f29d MarcoFalke: bitcoin-tx: Reject non-integral and out of range multisig numbers
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508 2021-10-13T11:50:08  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #23253:  bitcoin-tx: Reject non-integral and out of range int strings (master...2110-utilTxSeqId) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23253
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511 2021-10-13T11:53:49  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 7 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/28d5074343d2...da13c7b18afc
512 2021-10-13T11:53:49  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 610a8a8 Carl Dong: test-*-check: Pass in *FLAGS and compile with them
513 2021-10-13T11:53:49  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 309eac9 fanquake: scripts: use LIEF for ELF checks in symbol-check.py
514 2021-10-13T11:53:49  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 8242ae2 fanquake: scripts: only parse the binary once in symbol-check.py
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517 2021-10-13T11:54:06  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #22392: scripts: use LIEF for ELF security & symbol checks (master...lief_elf) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/22392
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542 2021-10-13T13:02:08  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/da13c7b18afc...71a85fbd09b5
543 2021-10-13T13:02:08  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master b96adcb Carl Dong: guix: Fix powerpc64(le) dynamic linker name
544 2021-10-13T13:02:08  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 1527b7e Carl Dong: symbol-check: Check requested ELF interpreter
545 2021-10-13T13:02:08  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 71a85fb W. J. van der Laan: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#23148: build: Fix guix linker-loader path and add ch...
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548 2021-10-13T13:02:25  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #23148: build: Fix guix linker-loader path and add check_ELF_interpreter (master...2021-09-fix-loader-quick) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23148
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579 2021-10-13T14:13:54  <jnewbery> sipa: did you see cfields question about a secp c++ wrapper earlier? I'm also curious!
580 2021-10-13T14:13:57  <jnewbery> < cfields> sipa: what do you think about a c++ shim-wrapper (like aes.cpp for ctaes) around secp for Core, so we could build it as c++? With tighter integration, that'd save us from having to add all of the c buildsystem machinery for the single secp object.
581 2021-10-13T14:15:43  <sipa> i did see it, but forgot to respond
582 2021-10-13T14:15:51  <sipa> maybe a discussion to have in #secp256k1 ?
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595 2021-10-13T14:55:21  <laanwj> that would be a nice buildsystem simplification
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615 2021-10-13T16:06:50  <bitcoin-git> [gui] laanwj opened pull request #454: qt: Use only Qt translation primitives in GUI code (master...2021-10-qt-use-at-translation) https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gui/pull/454
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651 2021-10-13T17:33:01  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] stratospher opened pull request #23271: crypto: Fix K1/K2 use in the comments in ChaCha20-Poly1305 AEAD (master...fix-k1-k2) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23271
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661 2021-10-13T17:56:31  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] khan201kp opened pull request #23272: Update COPYING (master...patch-1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23272
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664 2021-10-13T17:57:56  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sipa closed pull request #23272: Update COPYING (master...patch-1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23272
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672 2021-10-13T18:13:00  <cfields> fwiw, the conclusion from #secp256k1 was that compiling as c++ would be too risky, given that it was written and will continue to be written against exactly the c89 language.
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735 2021-10-13T20:15:18  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto closed pull request #22764: build: Include qt sources for parsing with extract_strings.py (master...210821-translation) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/22764
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746 2021-10-13T20:43:18  <shiza> What's the risk in feeding C89 to C++ compilers?
747 2021-10-13T20:43:59  <sipa> the languages are different
748 2021-10-13T20:44:51  <sipa> valid C89 Cc   may exhibit ubdefined or implementation defined behavior in C++
749 2021-10-13T20:45:00  <sipa> that was garbled
750 2021-10-13T20:45:10  <shiza> There must be two or three things in C89 that not every C++ compiler is capable of translating.
751 2021-10-13T20:45:28  <sipa> being able to translate is not the issue
752 2021-10-13T20:45:33  <shiza> Can't have CI warning them?
753 2021-10-13T20:45:55  <sipa> not if we don't know about them
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755 2021-10-13T20:47:06  <shiza> Do you mean future C++ standards?
756 2021-10-13T20:48:15  <shiza> Can C++ drop C89 elements while keeping FFI essences?
757 2021-10-13T20:51:12  <sipa> the issue isn't language features, but rules
758 2021-10-13T20:51:25  <sipa> C++ for example is stricter about aliasing and alignment than C is
759 2021-10-13T20:52:04  <sipa> valid C89 code may be simultaneously compilable by actual C++ compilers but still have undefined behavior
760 2021-10-13T20:52:49  <sipa> and i'm sure an expert in both languages could give an exhaustive list of such differences, and we could go over the source code to make sure it isn't the case
761 2021-10-13T20:53:30  <sipa> but even then, it places a burden on future libsecp contributors to be simultaneously satisfying all C++'s rules; and those comtributors are mostly C programmers
762 2021-10-13T20:54:27  * shiza nods in a mix of ignorance and agreement
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765 2021-10-13T21:03:23  <shiza> Ugh now I hit the large #secp conversation about it.
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776 2021-10-13T21:41:07  <theStack> TIL that it is currently not possible to send a serialized message (CSerializedNetMsg instance) to multiple peers
777 2021-10-13T21:41:39  <theStack> CConnman::PushMessage uses move semantics... so after one call it's like "aaaaand it's gone" ;)
778 2021-10-13T21:42:44  <theStack> not a big deal, but that seems to be the reason the TODO in PeerManagerImpl::NewPoWValidBlock is still there "TODO: Avoid the repeated-serialization here"
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