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 15 2021-12-17T02:08:16  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #23793: validation: Revert "de-duplicate package transactions already in mempool" (master...2021-12-revert-package-dedup) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23793
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 96 2021-12-17T08:24:20  <vasild> ACK achow101 wallet maintainer
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114 2021-12-17T09:32:14  <darosior> ACK achow101 maintainer
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141 2021-12-17T10:59:12  <glozow> ACK giving fanquake permission to block accounts posting spam. Framing it as a "power" is a misrepresentation; it's always just cleaning up meaningless gibberish afaict. Requiring him to ask someone else does nothing but slow progress on the repo.
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144 2021-12-17T11:02:18  <glozow> ACK achow101 wallet maintainer, imo it's very appropriate for someone with extensive knowledge+authorship of the wallet codebase to maintain it
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146 2021-12-17T11:04:49  <earnestly> glozow: ('accounts posting spam' don't exist as a category external to 'accounts posting not-spam' and so the power to block accounts encompasses both)
147 2021-12-17T11:06:31  <glozow> earnestly: it would be extremely obvious if an account posting not-spam was blocked, so I see no risk of anybody abusing the privilege.
148 2021-12-17T11:06:55  <earnestly> Yeah I don't disagree, but the framing isn't wrong
149 2021-12-17T11:07:24  <earnestly> (More a limitation of github really)
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157 2021-12-17T11:22:52  <glozow> earnestly: yeah it'd be nice if github could automatically block when obvious spam is obvious
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159 2021-12-17T11:26:09  <earnestly> glozow: Hm, I was thinking more about multiple confirmations needed for an action
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164 2021-12-17T11:28:26  <laanwj> the goal was be to speed things up, not slow them down even further
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166 2021-12-17T11:29:21  <glozow> laanwj: +1
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169 2021-12-17T11:30:57  <laanwj> i'm not sure what the fear here is, it seems to me the community around bitcoin dev is sufficiently diffuse and loosely organized that there's ton of ways for someone who is banned in error to have recourse
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172 2021-12-17T11:33:36  <laanwj> like just that fanquake has disagreed with you on an issue once or refused to merge it doesn't mean he'll just ban you now instead, that was definitely not the idea, there's quite some arguing in bad faith going on
173 2021-12-17T11:37:30  <fanquake> i guess people are concerned that after 8-9 years of reputation building and project contributions, for some reason I'm going to undermine it all by abusing the ability to block people on GitHub
174 2021-12-17T11:37:38  <laanwj> yessss
175 2021-12-17T11:37:42  <laanwj> block block block you're all blocked
176 2021-12-17T11:37:46  <fanquake> At this point I really don't care, this discussion has already wasted too much bandwidth.
177 2021-12-17T11:37:52  <fanquake> I'd much prefer it if people spent that time scrutinising the code I write, and merge. The build system & related code is an area that could always use more eyes over it.
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179 2021-12-17T11:38:13  <laanwj> agree
180 2021-12-17T11:38:17  <earnestly> fanquake: If it matters, I already trust your pgp for signed commits
181 2021-12-17T11:38:36  <laanwj> it's really a distortion of what matters
182 2021-12-17T11:38:56  <earnestly> So the ability to block accounts is pretty minor compared to that
183 2021-12-17T11:40:24  <laanwj> and what the risks are
184 2021-12-17T11:46:07  <michaelfolkson> Sorry, unrelated question. Where's the dev wiki gone in the Core repo?
185 2021-12-17T11:46:42  <laanwj> thanks for the easy question. it's at https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoin-devwiki/wiki
186 2021-12-17T11:47:07  <michaelfolkson> Thanks, the tab has disappeared :)
187 2021-12-17T11:48:05  <laanwj> i haven't noticed anything different in that regard
188 2021-12-17T11:48:45  <michaelfolkson> I thought it was this new Projects thing moving the tab
189 2021-12-17T11:49:15  <laanwj> the new projects thing did make me worry yesterday, it looked like all the projects were gone
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191 2021-12-17T11:49:56  <laanwj> i don't understand why there's Projects [beta] and Projects now it confuses me but i'm sure it will seem normal soon enough
192 2021-12-17T11:51:32  <michaelfolkson> On the permissions thing, it is more than just blocking right? An owner could say remove you as a co-owner right laanwj?
193 2021-12-17T11:51:51  <michaelfolkson> I'm using "owner" as the GitHub definition
194 2021-12-17T11:52:03  <laanwj> michaelfolkson: yes. sometimes i wish they did
195 2021-12-17T11:53:33  <michaelfolkson> I don't think there's an argument against fanquake whatsoever but I think we generally all trust laanwj's stewardship after all these years and so adding someone new makes some people uncomfortable
196 2021-12-17T11:54:07  <michaelfolkson> But if someone is to be added fanquake ticks all the boxes imo
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201 2021-12-17T11:58:01  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] shaavan opened pull request #23801: Refactor: Change time variable type from int64_t to std::chrono::seconds in net_processing.cpp (master...time_in_seconds_refactor) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23801
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203 2021-12-17T11:58:28  <laanwj> michaelfolkson: agree
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205 2021-12-17T11:59:31  <glozow> laanwj: do you have any objections to it? you're the person who would grant permissions right?
206 2021-12-17T11:59:36  <michaelfolkson> But yeah it is a credit to yourself laanwj that we generally all trust your stewardship :)
207 2021-12-17T12:00:18  <michaelfolkson> (I guess I shouldn't project my views on others without confirming but I'm sure that's the case)
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210 2021-12-17T12:07:32  <laanwj> glozow: no objections myself, but i do think it's important that people developing bitcoin core widely agree on it (which seems to be the case)
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214 2021-12-17T12:15:03  <michaelfolkson> In normal times I'm sure it will be an irrelevance. It is just those stressful, strained times when under pressure someone could do something they later regret
215 2021-12-17T12:17:03  <michaelfolkson> But thankfully/hopefully they seem to occur very rarely
216 2021-12-17T12:19:45  <MarcoFalke> I don't think fanquake has ever done something they regretted later. I also hope no one is stressed. Taking time off might fix stress.
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220 2021-12-17T12:24:10  <glozow> laanwj: indeed!
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224 2021-12-17T12:28:55  <michaelfolkson> There's no rush, take some time off and hopefully come back refreshed in the new year laanwj :)
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232 2021-12-17T12:43:26  <provoostenator> ack en congrats achow101 wallet maintainer
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234 2021-12-17T12:45:16  <michaelfolkson> +1
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238 2021-12-17T12:51:18  <provoostenator> fanquake: carefully building a reputation over many years and then suddenly destroying it, is a common theme in this industry.  But usually not by blocking spammers on Github :-)
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241 2021-12-17T13:08:29  <meshcollider> Why block spammers, they're some of our most active PR and issue reviewers :)
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243 2021-12-17T13:14:15  <meshcollider> Also I have no idea why Luke's lone objection is still holding things up re: fanquake. Just ignore him and do it, his opinion should not outweigh literally every other dev here...
244 2021-12-17T13:15:01  <meshcollider> Consensus does not mean absolute agreement
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246 2021-12-17T13:19:56  <michaelfolkson> I don't think it would just be Luke with concerns on granting co-owner privileges on the repo to an additional person(s) ignoring who that person is
247 2021-12-17T13:20:53  <michaelfolkson> GitHub causes all sorts of unnecessary aggro
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250 2021-12-17T13:23:09  <meshcollider> I thought those same people argue against putting any trust into GitHub and this specific repo anyway ...
251 2021-12-17T13:24:06  <meshcollider> michaelfolkson: it is very clear that everyone speaking out is in favour except Luke and prayank, both for unrelated personal reasons
252 2021-12-17T13:24:40  <michaelfolkson> You minimize trust in GitHub but it can't go to zero during high pressure scenarios
253 2021-12-17T13:25:25  <meshcollider> ...
254 2021-12-17T13:25:36  <michaelfolkson> And similarly with the Core repo I guess
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256 2021-12-17T13:26:00  <laanwj> i mean in the end the github structure is contingent, it's not a representation of any formal power structure within bitcoin, if someone would really mess up the onus of development would simply move somewhere else
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258 2021-12-17T13:27:03  <meshcollider> Exactly, and that's a negligible chance anyway when the only people in question are some of the longest-standing and trusted contributors...
259 2021-12-17T13:27:07  <michaelfolkson> Right but it would be messy
260 2021-12-17T13:27:22  <meshcollider> michaelfolkson: stop fearmongering
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262 2021-12-17T13:28:32  <michaelfolkson> I guess the elephant in the room is that some people wanted to remove Luke as a BIP editor earlier in the year. And rightly in my view laanwj didn't succumb to that pressure as there should be separation between Core and BIPs
263 2021-12-17T13:28:42  <michaelfolkson> So I'm not deliberately fearmongering
264 2021-12-17T13:29:04  <laanwj> it would but the same has to happen if we can't function efficiently and all project-level decisions are delayed or postponed indefinitely of course
265 2021-12-17T13:29:23  <meshcollider> But along the same lines, kalle was added despite Luke's objections there. Luke is almost always the only one objecting to these things
266 2021-12-17T13:29:24  <michaelfolkson> Maybe an additional owner of the repo would have acted differently in that scenario
267 2021-12-17T13:30:17  <michaelfolkson> A BIP editor who had been performing that role on his own for what 5+ years?
268 2021-12-17T13:32:35  <laanwj> that the bips repository is in the same organization is somewhat questionable in any case
269 2021-12-17T13:33:14  <meshcollider> A single BIP editor is also not very decentralised so that's not a good thing.
270 2021-12-17T13:33:45  <michaelfolkson> Right, we've got an additional one now which is great. But still people wanted to remove Luke
271 2021-12-17T13:34:40  <michaelfolkson> [12:15:03]  <michaelfolkson> In normal times I'm sure it will be an irrelevance. It is just those stressful, strained times when under pressure someone could do something they later regret
272 2021-12-17T13:35:53  <meshcollider> Also, admin perms on bitcoin/bitcoin doesn't require admin on bitcoin/BIPs
273 2021-12-17T13:35:54  <MarcoFalke> I don't think anyone wanted to *remove* luke? I understood it as *adding* kalle, but I am not interested in rehashing the discussion here, so I probably shouldn't comment.
274 2021-12-17T13:36:41  <meshcollider> michaelfolkson: anyway, please don't perpetuate this discussion when apparently you're not actually objecting, and please leave it to dev consensus
275 2021-12-17T13:36:44  <laanwj> i'm not aware of anying asking to remove Luke either-just to add kallewoof
276 2021-12-17T13:38:36  <earnestly> (In disagreements focus hard on creating a set of measurable steps to solve whatever problem is causing it, sideline much of the purposeless discussion)
277 2021-12-17T13:40:17  <earnestly> From my lurking here I've not really seen anyone lay out a clear rationale for disagrement, usually because the other side refuses to acknowledge any aspect of it (and is quickly derailed into useless details), or because they don't have one.
278 2021-12-17T13:40:46  <michaelfolkson> meshcollider: I'm not objecting to fanquake as an additional owner of the repo if we get an additional owner of the repo. Just thinking through long term implications and being told that is fearmongering
279 2021-12-17T13:41:01  <michaelfolkson> But I'm repeating myself so I'll leave
280 2021-12-17T13:41:12  <meshcollider> There is no problem. fanquake should be given permissions because the supermajority of devs agree and those against have no valid objections. That's it.
281 2021-12-17T13:41:49  <jnewbery> meshcollider: +1
282 2021-12-17T13:41:53  <earnestly> > there is no problem if we redefine the problem to exclude the problem
283 2021-12-17T13:42:05  <earnestly> redefine the solution*
284 2021-12-17T13:42:43  <michaelfolkson> Happy to provide links to attempts to remove Luke as a BIP editor if they are needed though
285 2021-12-17T13:42:57  <earnestly> (Tbh, I've never seen a clear rationale given as to why fanquake shouldn't have permission to block accounts, usually because those against it don't explain themselves and there is no dialog with those who disagree.  But I could easily have missed it too)
286 2021-12-17T13:44:11  <laanwj> so about reviewing PRs...
287 2021-12-17T13:49:16  <_aj_> laanwj: awww, mum, do we have to?
288 2021-12-17T13:50:28  <MarcoFalke> (Ok, some people might have asked for luke to be removed, but I hope my memory doesn't fail me telling me I was not one of them)
289 2021-12-17T13:51:05  <laanwj> _aj_: hehehe yess u should all review a PR and then if you still have energy to argue u can get back to discussion here
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330 2021-12-17T15:47:33  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #22786: Fix ScriptNum Tests (master...fix_scriptnum_test) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/22786
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337 2021-12-17T15:56:43  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/8c0bd871fcf6...4ad59042b359
338 2021-12-17T15:56:43  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 65ef932 stratospher: [fuzz] Add D. J. Bernstein's implementation of ChaCha20
339 2021-12-17T15:56:43  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 4d0ac72 stratospher: [fuzz] Add fuzzing harness to compare both implementations of ChaCha20
340 2021-12-17T15:56:43  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 4ad5904 W. J. van der Laan: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#22704: fuzz: Differential fuzzing to compare Bitcoin...
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344 2021-12-17T15:57:00  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #22704: fuzz: Differential fuzzing to compare Bitcoin Core's and D. J. Bernstein's implementation of ChaCha20 (master...diff-fuzz-chacha20) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/22704
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352 2021-12-17T16:10:35  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #23803: ci: Disable s390x gui tests for now (master...2112-ciGUIs390x) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23803
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357 2021-12-17T16:16:02  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] glozow opened pull request #23804: validation: followups for de-duplication of packages (master...2021-12-dedup-packages) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23804
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374 2021-12-17T16:43:31  <jeremyrubin> my bad on pushing if_unset_then_unset, can someone delete that branch from core? on a new laptop forgot to make my origin remote https
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377 2021-12-17T16:44:54  <jeremyrubin> `git remote set-url --push origin no_push` won't happen again :p
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383 2021-12-17T17:04:27  <bitcoin-git> [gui] hebasto opened pull request #509: Respect dialog modality and fix a regression in wallet unlock (master...211217-unlock) https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gui/pull/509
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394 2021-12-17T17:55:56  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] stratospher opened pull request #23806: fuzz: follow up for #22704 (master...follow-up-diff-fuzz-chacha20) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23806
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396 2021-12-17T18:00:35  <laanwj> jeremyrubin: done
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410 2021-12-17T18:39:14  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] w0xlt opened pull request #23807: Remove GetAdjustedTime() from AddrMan (master...remove_adjusted_time_addrman) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23807
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418 2021-12-17T19:00:18  <achow101> #startmeeting
419 2021-12-17T19:00:18  <core-meetingbot> Meeting started Fri Dec 17 19:00:18 2021 UTC.  The chair is achow101. Information about MeetBot at https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings.
420 2021-12-17T19:00:18  <core-meetingbot> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
421 2021-12-17T19:00:28  <achow101> #bitcoin-core-dev Wallet Meeting: achow101 _aj_ amiti ariard BlueMatt cfields Chris_Stewart_5 darosior digi_james dongcarl elichai2 emilengler fanquake fjahr gleb glozow gmaxwell gwillen hebasto instagibbs jamesob jarolrod jb55 jeremyrubin jl2012 jnewbery jonasschnelli jonatack jtimon kallewoof kanzure kvaciral laanwj larryruane lightlike luke-jr maaku marcofalke meshcollider michagogo moneyball morcos nehan NicolasDorier paveljanik petertodd
422 2021-12-17T19:00:29  <achow101> phantomcircuit promag provoostenator ryanofsky sdaftuar sipa vasild S3RK
423 2021-12-17T19:00:38  <S3RK> hi
424 2021-12-17T19:00:40  <sipa> hi
425 2021-12-17T19:00:46  <achow101> any topics?
426 2021-12-17T19:01:00  <sipa> none from me
427 2021-12-17T19:01:02  <S3RK> bnb upper limit?
428 2021-12-17T19:01:19  <achow101> #topic bnb upper limit (S3RK)
429 2021-12-17T19:01:20  <core-meetingbot> topic: bnb upper limit (S3RK)
430 2021-12-17T19:01:25  <sipa> i invoke murch
431 2021-12-17T19:01:27  <Murch[m]> Hi
432 2021-12-17T19:01:31  <S3RK> oh nice
433 2021-12-17T19:01:55  <S3RK> so the current upper limit for bnb is not optimal
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435 2021-12-17T19:02:27  <S3RK> it's economically better to drop more than the current upper limit for fees rather than add an extra input and create change output
436 2021-12-17T19:02:37  <S3RK> we can either 1) increase the limit or 2) drop the limit
437 2021-12-17T19:02:38  <Murch[m]> Yeah, we ran some experiments removing the upper bound for the exact match window and that resulted in an overall lower cost
438 2021-12-17T19:02:45  <michaelfolkson> hi
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442 2021-12-17T19:03:17  <Murch[m]> S3RK: My current position would be that I'd be apprehensive about dropping the limit altogether.
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445 2021-12-17T19:03:26  <achow101> if our calculation for the upper bound is incorrect, I would prefer to fix it rather than drop the limit entirely
446 2021-12-17T19:03:36  <Murch[m]> If both Knapsack and SRD find very bad solutions, we may drop a ton of money to fees.
447 2021-12-17T19:03:51  *** ZeroMaster <ZeroMaster!~webirc@95-42-105-42.ip.btc-net.bg> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
448 2021-12-17T19:03:56  <S3RK> it's a bit tricky to calculate exact upper limit
449 2021-12-17T19:03:59  <achow101> but IIRC part of the issue is that our drop to fees handling is independent of the selection algorithm
450 2021-12-17T19:04:46  <Murch[m]> Right, but without an upper bound, BnB may end up returning a result that has a larger remainder than what's dropped and our transaction building ends up building a tx with a minuscule change
451 2021-12-17T19:04:49  <S3RK> hm... I'd say that's a related but separate issue. Would love to discuss it as well, but let's talk about the bnb limit first
452 2021-12-17T19:05:02  <Murch[m]> So, we could just post-filter BnB solutions to not use such a solution
453 2021-12-17T19:05:32  <S3RK> Murch, why do you think knapsack wouldn't find the same solution but with change?
454 2021-12-17T19:05:47  <achow101> the min change target
455 2021-12-17T19:05:58  <Murch[m]> Because Knapsack minimizes the overshoot past minChange
456 2021-12-17T19:05:59  <S3RK> hm...
457 2021-12-17T19:06:08  <Murch[m]> It doesn't prefer input sets with lower waste
458 2021-12-17T19:06:49  <S3RK> what about SRD?
459 2021-12-17T19:06:54  <S3RK> ah.. also min change
460 2021-12-17T19:07:05  <Murch[m]> SRD only runs once and also aims to create at least minChange
461 2021-12-17T19:07:16  <S3RK> yes, that's a bit of problem
462 2021-12-17T19:07:16  <Murch[m]> So you could have solutions on Knapsack and SRD that each have 10+ inputs
463 2021-12-17T19:07:29  <Murch[m]> and BnB finds a solution with a single input that ends up dropping 20k sats
464 2021-12-17T19:07:49  <Murch[m]> Or let's say 1k sats
465 2021-12-17T19:08:05  <Murch[m]> and we end up creating a transaction with a 750 sat output
466 2021-12-17T19:09:06  <S3RK> doesn't mean that right now we would say "insufficient funds" for such a tx?
467 2021-12-17T19:09:12  <S3RK> sorry
468 2021-12-17T19:09:15  <S3RK> does it mean taht ...
469 2021-12-17T19:09:41  <Murch[m]> So, right now, BnB would not find that solution, and it wuold use one of the Knapsack or SRD
470 2021-12-17T19:09:54  <achow101> actually knapsack should find the solution but with change
471 2021-12-17T19:10:00  <achow101> even if min change is not met
472 2021-12-17T19:10:18  <achow101> srd wouldn't
473 2021-12-17T19:10:23  <S3RK> I have to confess I don't know the details how knapsack works right now
474 2021-12-17T19:10:39  <Murch[m]> Right, but the scenario wasn't that we didn't have enough funds, but just that the solutions that Knapsack and SRD propose have huge input sets
475 2021-12-17T19:10:58  <Murch[m]> achow101: Do I misremember that Knapsack prefers the solution that overshoots the minchange the least?
476 2021-12-17T19:11:44  <achow101> that sounds right
477 2021-12-17T19:12:15  <achow101> it also prefers the solution that meets min change, but will produce a solution that does not if min change cannot be met
478 2021-12-17T19:12:41  <Murch[m]> Right
479 2021-12-17T19:13:10  <S3RK> It seems we should codify this scenarious in tests
480 2021-12-17T19:13:11  <Murch[m]> I guess we could amend Knapsack to compare the 1,000 trials via the waste metric instead of minimizing the excess, and then I'd agree.
481 2021-12-17T19:13:33  <achow101> so if bnb without limit found a solution that throws away lots to fees, knapsack should find the same thing but with change
482 2021-12-17T19:13:49  <achow101> the excess should dominate the waste calculation
483 2021-12-17T19:13:49  <Murch[m]> Yes
484 2021-12-17T19:13:54  <S3RK> achow101 +1 that was my understanding as well
485 2021-12-17T19:13:55  <Murch[m]> Correct
486 2021-12-17T19:14:19  <Murch[m]> That's why I painted a scenario in which they find different solutions because they optimize for different metrics in their selection ;)
487 2021-12-17T19:14:53  <Murch[m]> But yeah, if we use the waste metric internally to compare input sets on Knapsack as well, it would be pretty safe to drop the limit on BnB
488 2021-12-17T19:15:13  <achow101> however knapsack may also find a different solution that spends more inputs as it tries to meet min change. this would still be less waste on the knapsack side since excess dominates the bnb solution's waste
489 2021-12-17T19:15:23  <Murch[m]> But it would also kinda be pointless, because then Knapsack is very similar to BnB just for a solution that targets a +minchange larger target
490 2021-12-17T19:15:33  <Murch[m]> Yes
491 2021-12-17T19:15:34  <achow101> even if the knapsack fees are higher
492 2021-12-17T19:16:15  <Murch[m]> Knapsack and BnB are very similar in approach, except that Knapsack quasirandomly explores the binary UTXO tree, while BnB does it deterministically.
493 2021-12-17T19:16:36  <achow101> I think we need to change how we drop things to fees, and then run simulations
494 2021-12-17T19:17:03  <achow101> and see if bnb without limit causes some scenarios where we drop ridiculous amounts to fees
495 2021-12-17T19:17:20  <S3RK> you can test on #23367 i guess
496 2021-12-17T19:17:21  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/23367 | Optimize coin selection by dropping BnB upper limit by S3RK · Pull Request #23367 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
497 2021-12-17T19:17:40  <Murch[m]> Well, in the experiment you ran for us, the numbers showed that we had more BnB solutions used than changeless transactions.
498 2021-12-17T19:17:47  <Murch[m]> So, essentially, you've shown that already.
499 2021-12-17T19:18:19  <S3RK> it doesn't mean we drop ridiculous amounts to fees
500 2021-12-17T19:18:27  <S3RK> just more than we currently drop
501 2021-12-17T19:18:38  <S3RK> which I argue could still be more economical
502 2021-12-17T19:18:44  <Murch[m]> Yes, agreed
503 2021-12-17T19:19:13  <S3RK> what if we introduce a safeguard?
504 2021-12-17T19:19:25  <S3RK> put a limit on what is "ridiculous" to drop to fees?
505 2021-12-17T19:19:26  <Murch[m]> But it also breaks a lot of assumptions about BnB, because previously we assumed that BnB never creates change, and when we find a really large excess, the transaction we build actually does result in a change output
506 2021-12-17T19:19:50  <achow101> time for "absurdly-high-fee" errors again :p
507 2021-12-17T19:19:52  <Murch[m]> Isn't that equivalent to just updating our upper bound for the exact match window? ;)
508 2021-12-17T19:19:52  <S3RK> my PR does exactly this. BnB never creates change
509 2021-12-17T19:20:18  <achow101> yes, we do need to look at 23367 and also run simulations on it
510 2021-12-17T19:20:50  <S3RK> hm... yes we can also extend upper bound by the "absurdly-high-fee"
511 2021-12-17T19:21:33  <achow101> (there used to be a mempool policy reject error named absurdly-high-fee)
512 2021-12-17T19:21:52  <achow101> I think the fee had to be 0.1 or thereabouts
513 2021-12-17T19:22:04  <S3RK> there is still some limit. 0.1 sounds about right
514 2021-12-17T19:23:21  <S3RK> if you can write in plain english scenarios that concerns you, I can codify them as tests
515 2021-12-17T19:23:38  <prayank> AI
516 2021-12-17T19:23:57  <S3RK> I take it as a compliment :)
517 2021-12-17T19:24:26  <achow101> one thing that concerns me is that it's probably going to hit the iteration limit very quickly
518 2021-12-17T19:24:28  <S3RK> constexpr CAmount DEFAULT_TRANSACTION_MAXFEE{COIN / 10};
519 2021-12-17T19:24:45  <S3RK> BnB iter limit?
520 2021-12-17T19:24:53  <achow101> since we are removing one of the bounds that allow BnB to be called Branch and _Bound_
521 2021-12-17T19:25:04  <S3RK> it shouldn't because there will be no branching
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523 2021-12-17T19:25:22  <S3RK> so it's linear to the amount of coins higher than the target
524 2021-12-17T19:25:52  <Murch[m]> achow101: No, finding a valid solution backtracks just like overshooting the window does
525 2021-12-17T19:26:58  <Murch[m]> Once you find a solution, it next explores the omission branch of the last included UTXO, the same as when it overshoots and stops searching the subtree because it already has too much
526 2021-12-17T19:27:09  <achow101> oh right
527 2021-12-17T19:27:50  <achow101> overshoot == finding a solution without limit, and both backtrack
528 2021-12-17T19:30:08  <achow101> anything else to discuss?
529 2021-12-17T19:30:12  <Murch[m]> It would be great if we had a test that does produce selections for which BnB without an upper bound on the exact match window breaks down
530 2021-12-17T19:30:40  <S3RK> what do you mean by breaks down
531 2021-12-17T19:32:19  <S3RK> I have a crazy idea. What if we create a test that iterates sending value from 1sat to 10^8sat and verifies fees
532 2021-12-17T19:32:20  <Murch[m]> Well, something were SRD and BnB would be highly likely to produce an input set with a large count of inputs, while BnB finds one that overshoots the exact match window severely and the BnB input set scores best according to the waste metric
533 2021-12-17T19:33:21  <Murch[m]> S3RK: I think that would be interesting, but probably the source of the issue would probably be found in the UTXO pool rather than the target amount
534 2021-12-17T19:33:58  <Murch[m]> E.g. a wallet that has 1,000 UTXOs that have the same size, and one that is larger
535 2021-12-17T19:34:08  <S3RK> true
536 2021-12-17T19:34:53  <Murch[m]> And 100 UTXOs match the target plus minChange plus fees by the satoshi, but the one large input is just enough for the target without change but has a large excess
537 2021-12-17T19:34:54  <S3RK> if we agreed that the waste metric is a good metric, than there is no problem with dropping more to fees no?
538 2021-12-17T19:35:33  <S3RK> I'll try to create some interesting test scenarios. Including one where current coin selectio fails
539 2021-12-17T19:35:47  <Murch[m]> Mh, I guess the fees would still be lower overall on the BnB solution in what I describe, but you'd not get the benefit of consolidating 100 UTXOs, so it feels like you paid more for less
540 2021-12-17T19:36:27  <S3RK> the benefit of consolidating only works if the fees are lower than "long term fee"
541 2021-12-17T19:36:33  <S3RK> if that's the case that would lower the waste
542 2021-12-17T19:36:48  <S3RK> i.e. consolidating value is counted in waste
543 2021-12-17T19:37:39  <S3RK> achow101 Murch what would be a good place for such tests?
544 2021-12-17T19:37:40  <achow101> if fees are high, the 100 utxos might have a larger fee than the bnb excess
545 2021-12-17T19:38:04  <S3RK> coinselection_test or some new/existing functional test?
546 2021-12-17T19:38:07  <Murch[m]> yes, to both
547 2021-12-17T19:38:17  <Murch[m]> but it still feels a bit icky, if you know what I mean
548 2021-12-17T19:38:29  <S3RK> yes :)
549 2021-12-17T19:38:34  <achow101> S3RK: usually rpc_fundrawtransaction
550 2021-12-17T19:38:46  <achow101> and coinselection_tests
551 2021-12-17T19:40:01  <S3RK> so in conclusion 1) I work on the tests
552 2021-12-17T19:40:14  <S3RK> achow101 could run simulations
553 2021-12-17T19:40:38  <S3RK> and you can also take a look at the PR
554 2021-12-17T19:40:58  <achow101> yes
555 2021-12-17T19:41:04  <Murch[m]> Yes
556 2021-12-17T19:41:14  <S3RK> thanks
557 2021-12-17T19:42:16  <achow101> any other topics?
558 2021-12-17T19:42:40  <S3RK> congrats, it looks like you'll be wallet maintainer soon :)
559 2021-12-17T19:42:53  <prayank> achow101: yes
560 2021-12-17T19:44:49  <achow101> prayank: you have a topic?
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562 2021-12-17T19:45:10  <prayank> Not sure if this can be discussed. Wanted to understand why isnt this better approach? https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/22776
563 2021-12-17T19:45:46  <prayank> RPC would respond with balance and getbalances already does that but we add a condition so parameter
564 2021-12-17T19:45:53  <achow101> #topic add optional transaction(s) to getbalances (prayank)
565 2021-12-17T19:45:53  <core-meetingbot> topic: add optional transaction(s) to getbalances (prayank)
566 2021-12-17T19:46:07  <achow101> prayank: because such an RPC can be expanded to be much more than just balance fetching
567 2021-12-17T19:46:17  <prayank> like?
568 2021-12-17T19:47:01  <achow101> the reason I asked for simulaterawtransaction is because we can do things like seeing if a transaction has conflicts with the wallet, and if it does, what gets replaced
569 2021-12-17T19:47:51  <prayank> hmm
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571 2021-12-17T19:48:25  <prayank> I liked the idea of having such params in few other RPC to simulate things
572 2021-12-17T19:48:33  <prayank> You don't like the idea to add similar parameter in getmempool and see how mempool looks if some txs get added?
573 2021-12-17T19:48:43  <achow101> IMO it's better to have simulating things in one spot, rather than spread in many different places
574 2021-12-17T19:48:57  <prayank> yes its one param
575 2021-12-17T19:49:08  <achow101> prayank: no, I think that should be its own RPC
576 2021-12-17T19:49:42  <achow101> I don't think it makes sense to have a fetching function do simulation things
577 2021-12-17T19:49:47  <prayank> ah okay then I guess we have different opinion. No problem. But the wallet conflicts thing makes sense.
578 2021-12-17T19:51:17  <achow101> anything else?
579 2021-12-17T19:51:40  <prayank> No. Thanks for sharing your opinion.
580 2021-12-17T19:52:02  <achow101> #endmeeting
581 2021-12-17T19:52:02  <core-meetingbot> topic: Bitcoin Core development discussion and commit log | Feel free to watch, but please take commentary and usage questions to #bitcoin | Channel logs: http://www.erisian.com.au/bitcoin-core-dev/, http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/ | Meeting topics http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedmeetingtopics.txt / http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedwalletmeetingtopics.txt
582 2021-12-17T19:52:02  <core-meetingbot> Meeting ended Fri Dec 17 19:52:02 2021 UTC.
583 2021-12-17T19:52:02  <core-meetingbot> Minutes:        https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings/logs/bitcoin-core-dev/2021/bitcoin-core-dev.2021-12-17-19.00.moin.txt
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593 2021-12-17T20:35:15  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/4ad59042b359...784a21d35466
594 2021-12-17T20:35:15  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 8494dca Dmitry Goncharov: Replace $(AT) with .SILENCE.
595 2021-12-17T20:35:15  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 784a21d W. J. van der Laan: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#22283: build: Replace $(AT) with .SILENT
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598 2021-12-17T20:35:31  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #22283: build: Replace $(AT) with .SILENT (master...replace_AT_with_dotsilence) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/22283
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602 2021-12-17T20:45:41  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/784a21d35466...14ba286556fa
603 2021-12-17T20:45:41  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa1dc9b MarcoFalke: p2p: Always serialize local timestamp for version msg
604 2021-12-17T20:45:41  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 14ba286 W. J. van der Laan: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#23695: p2p: Always serialize local timestamp for ver...
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607 2021-12-17T20:45:57  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #23695: p2p: Always serialize local timestamp for version msg (master...2112-p2pTime) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23695
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609 2021-12-17T21:30:09  <prayank> Any thoughts on this? especially people who understand p2p, tor etc. https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18988#issuecomment-646564853
610 2021-12-17T21:31:17  <prayank> ryanofsky: had asked to create an issue which was never created
611 2021-12-17T21:31:23  <prayank> I was thinking to create one
612 2021-12-17T21:32:12  <sipa> I don't understanding anything about node-tor, or why you'd want to use a separate tor network for just bitcoin traffic. That completely defeats the purpose.
613 2021-12-17T21:34:42  <sipa> I conceptually like having more mechanisms for connecting bitcoin nodes though, so if there were a viable network like that to use as an additional one - sure why not.
614 2021-12-17T21:35:04  <sipa> But it feels to me like the discussion there is too far removed from anything concrete.
615 2021-12-17T21:35:24  <prayank> hmm tbh I am not the best person to comment anything on this. I liked the idea and his follow up on mailing list. What I understand is: we do bitcoin nodes from browsers similar to one PoC by bcoin but its not safe for production. And this guy wants to make it interesting by using tor protocol for everything. I have issues with JS and WebRTC but if it can help bitcoin nodes usage I dont mind and maybe not full nodes or somethin
616 2021-12-17T21:35:25  <prayank> g like neurino idk
617 2021-12-17T21:36:04  <sipa> I don't understand what you're talking about.
618 2021-12-17T21:37:16  <prayank> wait
619 2021-12-17T21:37:47  <prayank> https://bcoin.io/browser/
620 2021-12-17T21:37:53  <prayank> This is PoC
621 2021-12-17T21:38:13  <prayank> He wants to do something similar but use different ways to achieve it
622 2021-12-17T21:38:57  <prayank> and tor 'protocol' will be used not browser
623 2021-12-17T21:39:05  <prayank> or their network
624 2021-12-17T21:41:53  <sipa> I don't think that's at all what he's talking about. He's saying that the communication between bitcoin core and node-tor (if it were to use node-tor rather than actual tor) would not use SOCKS.
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626 2021-12-17T21:42:47  <sipa> But again, while I conceptually agree with making it easier to connect bitcoin nodes in more different ways with eachother, I don't understand the point of node-tor.
627 2021-12-17T21:47:04  <prayank> sipa: what I understood based on his emails. he likes browsers, js and world around it. so webtorrents kind of things for bitcoin nodes. He is from france, he is good with his project but unable to express or get funding. IDK just wanted to share it here once so that people like you who know better would be able to see if it helps bitcoin at some point. Everything is moving to browsers tbh and this is not about altcoins. I work
628 2021-12-17T21:47:05  <prayank> ed at microsoft when I was in college and even that had started moving from desktop applications to web apps. Core can remain same but we need a world around it.
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633 2021-12-17T21:57:23  <jb55> so basically a way to feed network messages in and out as plaintext, turn bitcoin into a pure function?
634 2021-12-17T21:58:58  <sipa> prayank: I conceptually agree with that, but it seems all unrelated to this discussion. He wants to build his own network that uses the tor protocol, but separate from the real one. I don't understand the reasons for that, or what there is to be gained, as directly shrinking the anonimity set for no reason as far as I can tell.
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637 2021-12-17T22:00:45  <roconnor> reducing the anonymity set seems pretty bad.
638 2021-12-17T22:00:48  <prayank> sipa: Reason IIUC he doesn't like the way Tor project uses Tor protocol and its flaws etc. but wants to make a better to for different projects and bitcoin is one of them
639 2021-12-17T22:01:28  <sipa> jb55 The P2P protocol is stateful, so it's not that easy. Just having ways of routing messages over some other links has some limited use (e.g. it's done by Blockstream satellite), but really supporting many networks in a full way is a lot harder, as you need the ability to discover connections and automatically create them etc.
640 2021-12-17T22:02:58  <prayank> roconnor: Tor is anyways centralized directory servers so i2p is better even if less nodes
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643 2021-12-17T22:06:15  <prayank> The part I am interested in this project actually was not Tor. It was browser. Because I want to see people running pruned nodes or at least some neturino type nodes running from mobile and browser.
644 2021-12-17T22:06:51  <sipa> That's all very reasonable, but I don't think that has much to do with Bitcoin Core.
645 2021-12-17T22:07:25  <prayank> Hmm but he commented in that PR so I thought some changes are required or that PR is related
646 2021-12-17T22:10:34  <sipa> Yes, he needs a way to communicate with Bitcoin Core. The altnet stuff goes in the direction of providing that functionality. As I said, I conceptually agree with that. I still don't see the point of node-tor, but if there is more functionality for interacting with separate networks, and someone makes it work with node-tor, sure...
647 2021-12-17T22:11:27  <sipa> But Bitcoin Core works fine with tor itself, and tor itself also works with browsers.
648 2021-12-17T22:11:37  <jb55> btw satellite doesn't need to be a bitcoin fork right? couldn't it just be a block-from-space decoder + call submitblock? or is there more to it?
649 2021-12-17T22:11:48  <sipa> I don't know.
650 2021-12-17T22:12:02  <sipa> I think it may rely on the node's mempool to do fast reconstruction.
651 2021-12-17T22:12:08  <jb55> hmm
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