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140 2022-01-13T07:40:52  <S3RK> any wallet expert can confirm whether CWallet::mapTxSpends should track spends _to_ the wallet (as ooposed to only spends from the wallet)?
141 2022-01-13T07:41:51  <S3RK> asking because of https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/22929#issuecomment-1011559903
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156 2022-01-13T08:36:36  <bitcoin-git> [gui] promag closed pull request #385: Always log context function of QtDebugMsg messages (master...2021-07-qdebug-func) https://github.com/bitcoin-core/gui/pull/385
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185 2022-01-13T10:24:24  *** bitcoin-git <bitcoin-git!~bitcoin-g@x0f.org> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
186 2022-01-13T10:24:24  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/290ff5ef6d38...31db3dd874df
187 2022-01-13T10:24:24  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 18f304d Hennadii Stepanov: build: Improve error message when pkg-config is not installed
188 2022-01-13T10:24:24  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 31db3dd laanwj: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#24048: build: Improve error message when pkg-config ...
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191 2022-01-13T10:24:40  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #24048: build: Improve error message when pkg-config is not installed (master...220112-m4) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24048
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202 2022-01-13T11:00:33  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] brunoerg opened pull request #24054: test: rest /tx with an invalid/unknown txid (master...2022-01-rest-functional) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24054
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207 2022-01-13T11:09:02  *** orionwl is now known as laanwj
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211 2022-01-13T11:33:17  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #24057: build: point to latest commit on 1.4.0 branch (master...actually_fix_guix) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24057
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213 2022-01-13T11:35:19  <b10c> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/23902 looks like spam to me and can be closed?
214 2022-01-13T11:36:16  <fanquake> b10c: thanks. Not sure how that was missed
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216 2022-01-13T11:42:06  <laanwj> sometimes, github hides (shadowbans?) accounts and their issues and somehow unhides them later, so they escape notice at creation
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224 2022-01-13T12:30:45  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] kallewoof opened pull request #24058: BIP-322 basic support (master...202201-bip322) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24058
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236 2022-01-13T13:01:06  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #24047: Uninstall icon changed from default nsis to bitcoin (master...patch-1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24047
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264 2022-01-13T14:19:05  *** da39a3ee5e6b4b0d <da39a3ee5e6b4b0d!~textual@2403:6200:8876:c04a:e083:f91a:e3b1:b08b> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
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270 2022-01-13T15:01:02  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #24059: Fix implicit-integer-sign-change in arith_uint256 (master...2201-int) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24059
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319 2022-01-13T17:36:01  *** bitcoin-git <bitcoin-git!~bitcoin-g@x0f.org> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
320 2022-01-13T17:36:01  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 3 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/31db3dd874df...767ee2e3a108
321 2022-01-13T17:36:01  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 091ccc3 Perlover: The evhttp_connection_get_peer function from libevent changes the type of ...
322 2022-01-13T17:36:01  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master c62d763 Perlover: Necessary improvements to make configure work without libevent installed
323 2022-01-13T17:36:01  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 767ee2e laanwj: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#23607: rpc: Pass const char* to evhttp_connection_ge...
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326 2022-01-13T17:36:18  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj merged pull request #23607: rpc: Pass const char* to evhttp_connection_get_peer for new libevent (master...patch-1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/23607
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334 2022-01-13T17:45:03  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 5 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/767ee2e3a108...807169e10b4a
335 2022-01-13T17:45:03  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2f79786 Sebastian Falbesoner: test: refactor: add constant for sequence number `SEQUENCE_FINAL`
336 2022-01-13T17:45:03  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master f30041c Sebastian Falbesoner: test: create txs with current `nVersion` (2) by default
337 2022-01-13T17:45:03  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master b24f6c6 Sebastian Falbesoner: test: MiniWallet: support default `from_node` for creating txs
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340 2022-01-13T17:45:20  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #24035: test: use MiniWallet for mempool_accept.py (master...202201-test-use_MiniWallet_for_mempool_accept_etc) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24035
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344 2022-01-13T17:52:51  <achow101> S3RK: that is correct. mapTxSpends maps all spends to the txids that contains the spend
345 2022-01-13T17:53:18  <achow101> that is necessary in order to detect conflicting incomining txs
346 2022-01-13T17:54:53  <achow101> should've caught that before #22929 was merged... this behavior needs some tests
347 2022-01-13T17:54:57  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/22929 | wallet: Automatically add receiving destinations to the address book by S3RK · Pull Request #22929 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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361 2022-01-13T18:24:04  <jeremyrubin> achow101 if i see a long-chain in the bottom of the mempool, and a some output in that is paying me, does core wallet save those transactions for rebroadcast?
362 2022-01-13T18:25:55  <achow101> jeremyrubin: I think it will only save the ones that have outputs for it
363 2022-01-13T18:26:20  <achow101> it won't pick up any ancestors or descendants
364 2022-01-13T18:26:34  <sipa> the solution of course is making the mempool do the rebroadcasting :)
365 2022-01-13T18:26:59  <MarcoFalke> sipa: The mempool will drop the txs after two weeks
366 2022-01-13T18:27:36  <jeremyrubin> i'm writing an email about this. we should save all ancestors (obviously?) because they're required to claim our money
367 2022-01-13T18:28:04  <jeremyrubin> we should also save all descendants, if they are paying a higher feerate and serve as a CPFP
368 2022-01-13T18:28:32  <jeremyrubin> it seems odd that we'd save the one we have outputs for but not the unconfirmed parents, that seems like a definite bug
369 2022-01-13T18:28:56  <achow101> as we add more (unrelated) txs to the wallet, it gets slower
370 2022-01-13T18:29:21  <achow101> if there are a lot of unconfirmed ancestors and descendants, once they do confirm, that's just going to be junk sitting in the wallet forever
371 2022-01-13T18:29:25  <sipa> they could be stored in a separate set of transactions, independent from mapwallet
372 2022-01-13T18:29:39  <sipa> from which confirmed/conflicted things can be pruned
373 2022-01-13T18:29:42  <jeremyrubin> i think engineering concerns / DoS aside, it's clearly rational to save these
374 2022-01-13T18:29:56  <sipa> but otherwise don't really participate in wallet reasoning
375 2022-01-13T18:30:08  <sipa> i agree it makes sense to store them
376 2022-01-13T18:30:12  <jeremyrubin> i just wanted to check on what existing behavior was
377 2022-01-13T18:30:39  <jeremyrubin> when we go to spend and the txns exist in the mempool still, does coin-selection allow spending from unconfirmed account for CPFP cost for longchains?
378 2022-01-13T18:30:51  <sipa> MarcoFalke: That's fair; the issue here isn't so much the rebroadcasting itself, but the forgetting?
379 2022-01-13T18:30:52  <achow101> no
380 2022-01-13T18:31:49  <jeremyrubin> so if you have a new wallet with 3 unconfirmeds that have different tx histories (e.g. 3 txs, 5 txs, 10txs) and you generate a spend what cost is used for those inputs?
381 2022-01-13T18:31:53  <MarcoFalke> I guess the issue is both rebroadcasting and forgetting
382 2022-01-13T18:31:54  <jeremyrubin> Just the satisfaction cost
383 2022-01-13T18:32:02  <achow101> just the satisfaction cost
384 2022-01-13T18:32:31  <jeremyrubin> kk, thanks
385 2022-01-13T18:32:32  <achow101> iirc there's some consideration for whether we will exceed ancestor/descendant limits
386 2022-01-13T18:32:42  <achow101> but only insofar as whether the utxo is available for selection
387 2022-01-13T18:32:45  <sipa> seems reasonable to open an issue for it or so
388 2022-01-13T18:32:57  <sipa> not sure if this is really ML material
389 2022-01-13T18:33:14  <jeremyrubin> sipa hopefully im not being seen as spamming the ML
390 2022-01-13T18:34:06  <sipa> i just don't see how this concerns the ML... it's an issue with Bitcoin Core's wallet, only affecting the users of that wallet
391 2022-01-13T18:34:09  <achow101> i agree that's not really ML material
392 2022-01-13T18:34:29  <jeremyrubin> well it's not just an issue for core
393 2022-01-13T18:34:34  <jeremyrubin> for any rational wallet
394 2022-01-13T18:34:54  <jeremyrubin> the reason for the post is that one of the critiques of CTV/congestion control is 'look at all the wallet software we'd have to have for it to work well', whereas i think most of the things are rational behaviors (CTV or no) that wallets would implement once mempool gets more backlogged
395 2022-01-13T18:35:22  <jeremyrubin> so i'm just describing the lifetime of a payment from the perspective of a rational wallet user during congested mempool
396 2022-01-13T18:35:43  <sipa> Do other wallets even do rebroadcasting?
397 2022-01-13T18:35:52  <achow101> the problem is that there are a lot of rational behaviors that wallet's should implement, but those are all hard to implement
398 2022-01-13T18:36:04  <achow101> nevermind the fact that the most basic things are already difficult to do
399 2022-01-13T18:36:11  <jeremyrubin> hence the email is documenting
400 2022-01-13T18:36:42  <jeremyrubin> these are also things that aren't you do x and y would be cheaper. these are you don't do X and your wallet will lose payments.
401 2022-01-13T18:37:14  <sipa> well, in theory, sure
402 2022-01-13T18:37:56  <sipa> but in practice, if the mempool forgets about an unconfirmed ancestor of yours, with default policy, i think it's very likely the transaction just isn't going to confirm at all, and will probably be RBFed anyway.
403 2022-01-13T18:38:21  <jeremyrubin> the RBF might e.g. double spend you
404 2022-01-13T18:38:39  <jeremyrubin> so it'd be rational for you to CPFP from your output to speed up the conf
405 2022-01-13T18:38:54  <jeremyrubin> depending on the amt of funds received
406 2022-01-13T18:39:04  <achow101> we never spend external unconfirmed utxos unless the user acknowledges that it is dangerous to do so
407 2022-01-13T18:39:23  <jeremyrubin> spend-to-self if you can't piggyback an actualpayment
408 2022-01-13T18:39:40  <sipa> is it even possible to do that (without raw transaction interface), achow101 ?
409 2022-01-13T18:39:46  <jeremyrubin> achow101: that sounds mildly irrational. spend your bad money first, good money later.
410 2022-01-13T18:39:56  <achow101> sipa: see include_unsafe
411 2022-01-13T18:40:00  <sipa> minconf=0 will still only spend your own unconfirmed UTXOs.
412 2022-01-13T18:40:02  <jeremyrubin> why would i spend money that has ~0% risk when i have something at 100% risk i can derisk by spending?
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414 2022-01-13T18:40:38  <achow101> jeremyrubin: huh? presumably you want your payment to go through
415 2022-01-13T18:40:46  *** outfox <outfox!~outfox@user/outfox> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
416 2022-01-13T18:40:53  <achow101> not potentially get stuck in limbo and maybe need an expert to fix the problem
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418 2022-01-13T18:43:21  <jeremyrubin> achow101: why would CPFP'ing an unconfirmed require an expert to fix it?
419 2022-01-13T18:43:48  <achow101> if the unconfirmed gets rbf'd
420 2022-01-13T18:44:35  <achow101> perhaps not need an expert, but results in a confusing situation for your average user
421 2022-01-13T18:44:44  <jeremyrubin> it's a fair point.
422 2022-01-13T18:45:02  <jeremyrubin> still, in this case, there are two outcomes: RBF still pays you, now your payment is dead
423 2022-01-13T18:45:19  <jeremyrubin> if the RBF is still paying you, you can reissue the txn and save on CPFP amount
424 2022-01-13T18:45:31  <achow101> yeah but the original still shows up as an unconfirmed transaction
425 2022-01-13T18:45:43  <jeremyrubin> if the RBF isn't paying you, then you should CPFP even more so as not to lose a payment to you
426 2022-01-13T18:45:57  <jeremyrubin> (glozow hi package relay)
427 2022-01-13T18:47:13  <achow101> imo we shouldn't do anything that might cause a user to need to reissue a payment. they will feel like they are double paying
428 2022-01-13T18:47:25  <jeremyrubin> (this is also a good point in favor of txn sponsors / fee accounts, which if your TX spend was inconvenient (e.g. requiring a multisig) that having the ability to add third party fees is great)
429 2022-01-13T18:47:25  <achow101> or they may not understand that the original payment attempt is dead
430 2022-01-13T18:47:48  <jeremyrubin> achow101 that seems like a UI problem, not a reason to deviate from rationality
431 2022-01-13T18:48:25  <jeremyrubin> the rational behavior should be supported, and the UI should simplify what has happened and explain it clearly. Those are largely separate concerns
432 2022-01-13T18:48:48  <jeremyrubin> much more frustrating would be the case where I see an unconfirmed and i get double spent
433 2022-01-13T18:48:59  <achow101> that's not a ui problem, that's a problem with time being linear
434 2022-01-13T18:49:09  <jeremyrubin> ...
435 2022-01-13T18:49:16  <achow101> "I sent the payment 2 days ago, now you're telling me I need to send it again?"
436 2022-01-13T18:49:19  <achow101> people have memories
437 2022-01-13T18:50:04  <achow101> regardless of what the ui shows, people will remember that they tried to pay previously
438 2022-01-13T18:50:11  <jeremyrubin> I would assume that much of this can be automated
439 2022-01-13T18:50:34  <jeremyrubin> it's not you having to reissue the payment, the wallet can prompt you "this payment failed because X"
440 2022-01-13T18:50:42  <jeremyrubin> (also it strikes me that APO fixes some of this...)
441 2022-01-13T18:51:03  <jeremyrubin> and the prompt can give you the tx to sign again.
442 2022-01-13T18:51:21  <jeremyrubin> (or maybe even do it without permission explicitly)
443 2022-01-13T18:52:43  <jeremyrubin> in any case it is definitely good to think about the UI concerns about understanding why / if payments get made.
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445 2022-01-13T19:00:17  <laanwj> #startmeeting
446 2022-01-13T19:00:18  <core-meetingbot`> Meeting started Thu Jan 13 19:00:17 2022 UTC.  The chair is laanwj. Information about MeetBot at https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings.
447 2022-01-13T19:00:18  <core-meetingbot`> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
448 2022-01-13T19:00:34  <hebasto> hi
449 2022-01-13T19:00:35  <laanwj> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: achow101 _aj_ amiti ariard BlueMatt cfields Chris_Stewart_5 darosior digi_james dongcarl elichai2 emilengler fanquake fjahr gleb glozow gmaxwell gwillen hebasto instagibbs jamesob jarolrod jb55 jeremyrubin jl2012 jnewbery jonasschnelli jonatack jtimon kallewoof kanzure kvaciral laanwj larryruane lightlike luke-jr maaku marcofalke meshcollider michagogo moneyball
450 2022-01-13T19:00:37  <laanwj> morcos nehan NicolasDorier paveljanik petertodd phantomcircuit promag provoostenator ryanofsky sdaftuar sipa vasild
451 2022-01-13T19:00:43  <achow101> hi
452 2022-01-13T19:00:45  <michaelfolkson> hi
453 2022-01-13T19:00:56  <cfields> hi
454 2022-01-13T19:00:56  <laanwj> welcome to the weekly general bitcoin-core-dev meeting
455 2022-01-13T19:01:00  <kvaciral[m]> hi
456 2022-01-13T19:01:11  <b10c> hi
457 2022-01-13T19:01:22  <provoostenator> hi
458 2022-01-13T19:01:55  <laanwj> there have been no proposed meeting topics this week (this can be done using #proposedmeetingtopic <topic>), any last-minute ones?
459 2022-01-13T19:02:06  <sipa> hi
460 2022-01-13T19:03:57  <laanwj> #topic High priority for review
461 2022-01-13T19:03:57  <core-meetingbot`> topic: High priority for review
462 2022-01-13T19:04:01  <jonatack> hi
463 2022-01-13T19:04:44  <laanwj> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8 has 8 blockers, no bugfixes, 1 chasing concept ACK at the moment
464 2022-01-13T19:04:55  <laanwj> anything to add, remove, or that is ready for merge?
465 2022-01-13T19:05:01  <MarcoFalke> can i haz #23629
466 2022-01-13T19:05:02  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/23629 | refactor tests to fix ubsan suppressions by MarcoFalke · Pull Request #23629 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
467 2022-01-13T19:05:32  <jonatack> #22932 has ACKs by hebasto and achow101 (thanks!), might need one more
468 2022-01-13T19:05:35  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/22932 | Guard CBlockIndex::nStatus by cs_main, require GetBlockPos/GetUndoPos to hold cs_main by jonatack · Pull Request #22932 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
469 2022-01-13T19:05:36  <_aj_> laanwj: #23508
470 2022-01-13T19:05:37  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/23508 | Add getdeploymentinfo RPC by ajtowns · Pull Request #23508 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
471 2022-01-13T19:06:27  <jeremyrubin> hi!
472 2022-01-13T19:06:41  <laanwj> MarcoFalke _aj_: added
473 2022-01-13T19:06:57  <laanwj> jonatack: good to know, will take a look
474 2022-01-13T19:07:52  <jonatack> I've tried to diff-review #22702 after ACKing it a few months ago, but it requires a fresh re-review. Planning to do that.
475 2022-01-13T19:07:54  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/22702 | Add allocator for node based containers by martinus · Pull Request #22702 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
476 2022-01-13T19:08:13  <jonatack> laanwj: thanks
477 2022-01-13T19:08:21  <jeremyrubin> #proposedmeetingtopic release processes / feature freezes / best practice & optionality w.r.t. BIP-119 for non-deployment code
478 2022-01-13T19:08:26  <laanwj> it's a pretty tough PR to review, but would be good to have more eyes on it
479 2022-01-13T19:09:11  <MarcoFalke> Maybe we should be holding back on risky stuff until after the branch off?
480 2022-01-13T19:09:12  <jonatack> yes, agree, i need to go through it fully again
481 2022-01-13T19:10:24  <laanwj> MarcoFalke: which one do you consider especially risky?
482 2022-01-13T19:10:40  <MarcoFalke> The allocator stuff?
483 2022-01-13T19:10:54  <MarcoFalke> (Not a expert on that, maybe it is not risky at all)
484 2022-01-13T19:10:55  <jonatack> true
485 2022-01-13T19:11:25  <laanwj> yes, ok, agree it's better to merge that at the beginning of a merge window instead of the end, but don't think it's done reviewing yet anyhow
486 2022-01-13T19:11:51  <_aj_> we're ~four weeks from freeze, ~six weeks from branching?
487 2022-01-13T19:12:03  <jeremyrubin> feb 15 feature freeze
488 2022-01-13T19:12:08  <laanwj> _aj_: yep
489 2022-01-13T19:12:21  <MarcoFalke> two weeks from translation soft freeze
490 2022-01-13T19:13:17  <laanwj> #topic Release processes / feature freezes / etc (jeremyrubin)
491 2022-01-13T19:13:17  <core-meetingbot`> topic: Release processes / feature freezes / etc (jeremyrubin)
492 2022-01-13T19:13:37  <jeremyrubin> ok so for #21702
493 2022-01-13T19:13:42  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21702 | Implement BIP-119 Validation (CheckTemplateVerify) by JeremyRubin · Pull Request #21702 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
494 2022-01-13T19:14:25  <jeremyrubin> i'm curious to know if there is a loss of "optionality" given usual precedent of merging non-activated code in a prior maj release that would motivate merging -- while still being reviewed / discussed for activation -- the CTV code
495 2022-01-13T19:14:44  <jeremyrubin> if there is no loss of optionality in terms of normal release practices, it doesn't matter much
496 2022-01-13T19:15:05  <jeremyrubin> (this was a discussion topic output from Tuesday's meeting)
497 2022-01-13T19:15:41  <jeremyrubin> One of the considerations for doing it is e.g. the ease of backporting the feature to the last major version, for example.
498 2022-01-13T19:15:52  <michaelfolkson> To state the obvious for observers there are many premature activation concerns on BIP 119 https://gist.github.com/michaelfolkson/352a503f4f9fc5de89af528d86a1b718
499 2022-01-13T19:16:08  <provoostenator> I'm not sure about optionality,  but increasing complexity of consensus code - even in code paths that aren't hit - always carries some risk.
500 2022-01-13T19:16:25  <michaelfolkson> I know Jeremy will keep his head in the sand regardless but for the sake of observers
501 2022-01-13T19:17:15  *** bairen <bairen!~bairen@gateway/tor-sasl/bairen> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
502 2022-01-13T19:17:23  <provoostenator> The patch is probably already as short as it gets, but you can always try to split of more stuff into seperate PR's if they have dual use.
503 2022-01-13T19:18:04  <provoostenator> But after that I think rebase-purgatory is the place to be until there's broad consensus that people want this soft fork.
504 2022-01-13T19:19:53  <jeremyrubin> provoostenator i think that's reasonable, I just want to ensure that "code wasn't in 0.2x" to contribute to a 6mo-1yr delay on a possible release timeline once that does exist, however it is to be measured (optionality)
505 2022-01-13T19:20:01  <_aj_> backporting a small patch to older versions seems plausible for CTV compared to taproot or segwit too
506 2022-01-13T19:20:16  <provoostenator> Backporting isn't necessarily easier; if you get some code in now and then have to dramatically change it later, including in backports, life isn't much easier.
507 2022-01-13T19:20:43  *** bairen <bairen!~bairen@gateway/tor-sasl/bairen> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
508 2022-01-13T19:21:36  <provoostenator> You could even maintain a patch with test on earlier branch to demonstrate that it's indeed not a problem.
509 2022-01-13T19:22:33  *** sipsorcery <sipsorcery!~sipsorcer@2a02:8084:6180:500::12b> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
510 2022-01-13T19:23:34  <jeremyrubin> provoostenator that does seem doable I guess? once e.g. the split off happens I could rebase once onto the 0.23 and freeze that even if other branch needs updates
511 2022-01-13T19:23:54  <provoostenator> I also tend to agree with your point above (before the meeting) that many changes you need for mempool and wallet handling are useful in general.
512 2022-01-13T19:24:27  <provoostenator> jeremyrubin: at first glance that seems doable, but maybe a waste of time if nobody actually has that concern.
513 2022-01-13T19:25:40  <provoostenator> And demonstrating CSV in a working and user friendly Core wallet might help increase excitement / decrease worries.
514 2022-01-13T19:25:42  <jeremyrubin> i think the main negative impact (outside of bug/complexity) would be prematurely impacting the PrecomputedData code path, if it were merged now. It's not a huge overhead though, but it is something.
515 2022-01-13T19:25:54  <provoostenator> * CTV
516 2022-01-13T19:26:05  <jeremyrubin> One of the benefits of merging would be having a signet client with CTV validation
517 2022-01-13T19:26:12  <jeremyrubin> that would aid testing
518 2022-01-13T19:26:35  <provoostenator> I think Signet users can be expected to know how to compile though.
519 2022-01-13T19:26:41  *** test_ <test_!flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
520 2022-01-13T19:26:49  <jeremyrubin> fair
521 2022-01-13T19:27:10  <provoostenator> That would be a good use case for maintaining a release branch
522 2022-01-13T19:27:28  <provoostenator> So people can test with stable release + patch, rather than master + patch.
523 2022-01-13T19:27:40  <jeremyrubin> are any maintainers able to weigh in on what advocates of CTV should be doing/aiming for? your input is valauble here too
524 2022-01-13T19:28:22  <jeremyrubin> if you don't want to talk about CTV in particular, can talk generally about what OP_FOOBAR should do in the future
525 2022-01-13T19:28:43  <achow101> I agree with provoostenator
526 2022-01-13T19:29:26  *** sipsorcery <sipsorcery!~sipsorcer@2a02:8084:6180:500::12b> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
527 2022-01-13T19:29:36  <jeremyrubin> what do we think about doing what provoostenator but actually doing a release build of 23.0+experimental? So then people can just grab a binary
528 2022-01-13T19:29:52  <provoostenator> jeremyrubin: you can just do that
529 2022-01-13T19:30:13  *** _flood <_flood!flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
530 2022-01-13T19:30:19  <provoostenator> Should be -  if it isn't yet - a matter of maintaining a fork branch and some Guix tweaks
531 2022-01-13T19:30:23  <jeremyrubin> sure, happy to. but if i'm the only signer i'd not advise people to run it
532 2022-01-13T19:30:23  <_aj_> jeremyrubin: (i'd consider running out-of-tree code to mine ctv blocks on the real signet, though that would also mean figuring out how to make txs propogate, but there's a bunch of higher priority things on my todo list)
533 2022-01-13T19:30:26  <provoostenator> So it'll even be reproducable
534 2022-01-13T19:31:11  <jeremyrubin> _aj_: yeah, this is why when i looked into "can't i just make the signer on signet run the new code" it wasn't a workable option
535 2022-01-13T19:31:22  *** test__ <test__!flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
536 2022-01-13T19:31:41  <provoostenator> I think it warrants a fresh signet,.
537 2022-01-13T19:32:47  <_aj_> jeremyrubin: (eh, i've tried code in the past to combine p2p service bits with consensus versionbits so nodes running a new fork can talk to each other; it's just work)
538 2022-01-13T19:34:01  *** test_ <test_!flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
539 2022-01-13T19:34:18  *** promag <promag!~promag@> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
540 2022-01-13T19:34:55  <jeremyrubin> _aj_: i'd be a bit out of my depth working on that and i don't want to impose on your time to do that; a new signet seems the simplest to make it happen. would be nice if could be done from the latest release without downloading a new thing, but that burden shouldn't be too large...
541 2022-01-13T19:35:09  <provoostenator> Custom signet would also let you massively constrain block space there, which could be handy for testing.
542 2022-01-13T19:35:59  <provoostenator> jeremyrubin: afaik you can point bitcoin.conf to arbirary signets
543 2022-01-13T19:36:00  <_aj_> jeremyrubin: anyone trying to use a new consensus feature needs to be able to build their own wallet etc anyway, compiling their own bitcoind should be the least of their worries
544 2022-01-13T19:36:22  <_aj_> provoostenator: (not if bitcoind doesn't support the opcode you're trying to test -- it won't be accepted into the mempool)
545 2022-01-13T19:36:28  <jeremyrubin> _aj_: you can use sapio studio somewhat off the shelf right now
546 2022-01-13T19:36:45  <jeremyrubin> but i guess that counts as "build" your own, less so "implement" your own
547 2022-01-13T19:36:51  <provoostenator> _aj_: I'm assuming the signet is used with the custom branch or custom binary.
548 2022-01-13T19:37:15  <_aj_> provoostenator: if it's a custom branch, you could add a new -chain=ctvsignet option i suppose
549 2022-01-13T19:37:19  <provoostenator> But the patch itself won't be more complicated for using the custom signet.
550 2022-01-13T19:39:34  *** promag <promag!~promag@> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
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553 2022-01-13T19:41:15  <laanwj> any other topics?
554 2022-01-13T19:43:06  <laanwj> #endmeeting
555 2022-01-13T19:43:07  <core-meetingbot`> topic: Bitcoin Core development discussion and commit log | Feel free to watch, but please take commentary and usage questions to #bitcoin | Channel logs: http://www.erisian.com.au/bitcoin-core-dev/, http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/ | Meeting topics http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedmeetingtopics.txt / http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedwalletmeetingtopics.txt
556 2022-01-13T19:43:07  <core-meetingbot`> Meeting ended Thu Jan 13 19:43:06 2022 UTC.
557 2022-01-13T19:43:07  <core-meetingbot`> Minutes:        https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings/logs/bitcoin-core-dev/2022/bitcoin-core-dev.2022-01-13-19.00.moin.txt
558 2022-01-13T19:51:33  *** sebsp73 <sebsp73!~sebsp73@agrenoble-651-1-526-48.w90-42.abo.wanadoo.fr> has quit IRC (Quit: Client closed)
559 2022-01-13T19:54:30  *** flooded <flooded!flooded@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/flood/x-43489060> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
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561 2022-01-13T20:01:49  <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: maybe we need to focus more on encouraging people to sign more than Core mainline releases
562 2022-01-13T20:02:31  <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: I'm still not 100% setup for Guix yet, but I will try to sign yours if you remind me
563 2022-01-13T20:02:39  *** promag <promag!~promag@> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
564 2022-01-13T20:03:04  *** brunoerg <brunoerg!~brunoerg@2804:14d:5281:8ae2:64d3:5ec4:6df9:8177> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
565 2022-01-13T20:04:28  <jeremyrubin> luke-jr: thanks. i am somewhat ambivalent about signed releases in the first place which is why i've not done it previously. but i dont think theres a better alternative presently :/
566 2022-01-13T20:04:42  *** yanmaani <yanmaani!~yanmaani@gateway/tor-sasl/yanmaani> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
567 2022-01-13T20:04:44  <jeremyrubin> "everyone should compile bitcoin by hand"
568 2022-01-13T20:07:00  *** promag <promag!~promag@> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
569 2022-01-13T20:07:22  <luke-jr> certainly better than non-reproducible binaries :p
570 2022-01-13T20:19:45  *** brunoerg <brunoerg!~brunoerg@> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
571 2022-01-13T20:24:27  *** brunoerg <brunoerg!~brunoerg@> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
572 2022-01-13T20:34:38  <michaelfolkson> luke-jr: It depends what you think that signature represents. I'm curious actually. Let's say Jeremy releases a fork of Core with OP_CTV in it in an attempt to get it activated (I wouldn't recommend it but say he did)
573 2022-01-13T20:35:46  <michaelfolkson> Would you want to review the code before signing? Would you want to agree with the consensus change? Would you want to agree that the consensus change had community consensus?
574 2022-01-13T20:36:31  *** ___nick___ <___nick___!~quassel@cpc68286-cdif17-2-0-cust533.5-1.cable.virginm.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
575 2022-01-13T20:36:49  <michaelfolkson> It sounds like from the above you're willing to sign only on the condition that Jeremy signs yours and nothing else
576 2022-01-13T20:37:15  *** Talkless <Talkless!~Talkless@mail.dargis.net> has quit IRC (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
577 2022-01-13T20:38:10  <michaelfolkson> I guess it could be a bit web of trust-y. I know this came from Jeremy hence I'm willing to sign it
578 2022-01-13T20:38:33  <michaelfolkson> (assuming you trust him of course)
579 2022-01-13T20:40:16  *** pete_rizzo_33 <pete_rizzo_33!~pete_rizz@> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
580 2022-01-13T20:40:23  <sipa> the guix attestations mean "this source code corresponds to this binary", and if it's for a named release "i agree that this indeed the released source code under that name"
581 2022-01-13T20:40:25  <sipa> nothing more
582 2022-01-13T20:40:48  *** FollowTheRabbit <FollowTheRabbit!~FollowThe@87-231-54.netrunf.cytanet.com.cy> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
583 2022-01-13T20:44:05  <michaelfolkson> sipa: Like cryptographically?! Or is that just implicitly understood?
584 2022-01-13T20:44:35  <michaelfolkson> I guess I should look it up
585 2022-01-13T20:44:43  <sipa> That's what attestations are. They attest that the software was correctly built.
586 2022-01-13T20:45:18  <sipa> It would be very strange that it would mean "people should run X!" if there wasn't some sort of message signed that states that.
587 2022-01-13T20:46:19  <michaelfolkson> But are you literally signing a statement like "this source code corresponds to this binary" or can you only sign if you've compiled and so its implicit?
588 2022-01-13T20:46:41  <sipa> I don't understand your question.
589 2022-01-13T20:47:05  <jeremyrubin> GUIX tooling can largely be automated to sign releases. Not a good assumption the code has actually been reviewed
590 2022-01-13T20:47:16  <sipa> The attestation is a signature on a file that contains the hashes of the produced binaries, the source code tarball, and the file name.
591 2022-01-13T20:47:44  <jeremyrubin> It might be good to layer a signature that says "this code is safe" or "I am running this personally, at least".
592 2022-01-13T20:47:53  <sipa> It does not sign "I reviewed this code", or "I think people should run this code", or "This software will solve world hunger". If you want that, you can do that, but that's not what the attestations are about.
593 2022-01-13T20:48:44  <michaelfolkson> Does it need to be generally understood (with communicated words) what that GUIX attestation represents? It sounds like yes it does
594 2022-01-13T20:49:27  <michaelfolkson> I guess the only alternative would be a zero knowledge-y thing where you can literally only sign if you've generated same binary
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596 2022-01-13T20:51:42  <sipa> That still doesn't prevent people from misinterpreting it as something else.
597 2022-01-13T20:53:07  *** brunoerg <brunoerg!~brunoerg@> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
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599 2022-01-13T20:53:23  <michaelfolkson> I guess but you'd point to the zero knowledge-y process that you followed in this speculative world where such a thing was possible
600 2022-01-13T20:54:02  <sipa> I can also link to the GUIX process now.
601 2022-01-13T20:54:25  <sipa> Doesn't mean people will read it or understand its implications.
602 2022-01-13T20:57:12  <michaelfolkson> I guess. The more that is embedded in that signature it seems the better to me. And a process where it was only possible to sign through a ZK process would be even better
603 2022-01-13T20:57:29  *** brunoerg <brunoerg!~brunoerg@> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
604 2022-01-13T20:57:33  <sipa> Nor does the process prevent people running it from attaching additional semantics to it (e.g. they might only do guix builds for code they think is safe to run, implicitly attaching a meaning of vouching for it).
605 2022-01-13T20:57:59  <michaelfolkson> Other than just needing to verbally say "Here is a link to the GUIX process I followed"
606 2022-01-13T20:58:09  *** Kaizen_Kintsugi_ <Kaizen_Kintsugi_!Kaizen_Kin@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/kaizenkintsugi/x-74018745> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
607 2022-01-13T20:58:13  <michaelfolkson> But ok, thanks!
608 2022-01-13T20:58:18  <sipa> Whether that meaning is conveyed is purely a social issue.
609 2022-01-13T20:58:38  <michaelfolkson> It could be embedded in the signature, that was my point
610 2022-01-13T20:58:52  <michaelfolkson> So it becomes more of a math issue than a social issue
611 2022-01-13T20:59:13  <sipa> I think you misunderstand what a ZK system can accomplish. If I copy your compiled binary and sign it, I achieve the same thing.
612 2022-01-13T20:59:19  *** Kaizen_Kintsugi_ <Kaizen_Kintsugi_!Kaizen_Kin@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/kaizenkintsugi/x-74018745> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
613 2022-01-13T20:59:23  <sipa> Even if I didn't compile it myself.
614 2022-01-13T20:59:38  <sipa> ZK systems protect secret data. There is nothing secret here.
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617 2022-01-13T21:03:47  *** Kaizen_Kintsugi_ <Kaizen_Kintsugi_!Kaizen_Kin@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/kaizenkintsugi/x-74018745> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
618 2022-01-13T21:06:52  *** FollowTheRabbit <FollowTheRabbit!~FollowThe@87-231-54.netrunf.cytanet.com.cy> has quit IRC (Quit: Client closed)
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621 2022-01-13T21:10:24  <lukedashjr> michaelfolkson: cryptography has no meaning at all, except what people understand it to mean
622 2022-01-13T21:10:31  *** luke-jr <luke-jr!~luke-jr@user/luke-jr> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
623 2022-01-13T21:11:07  *** lukedashjr is now known as luke-jr
624 2022-01-13T21:11:36  <luke-jr> michaelfolkson: my Guix signatures explicitly clarify that I am using binary "substitutes" too
625 2022-01-13T21:12:25  <luke-jr> and while I would certainly appreciate more builds of my releases, Jeremy included, I didn't include it as a condition of my doing so for his
626 2022-01-13T21:14:26  <jeremyrubin> actually you can do some interesting things if you randomly sample data from a GUIX build on a challenge generated by the hash of your signing key and the files you're compiling, you could "prove" that you at least had access to a transcript of the build maybe... however, auditing that would require someone else to compile it and check the
627 2022-01-13T21:14:27  <jeremyrubin> transcript over.
628 2022-01-13T21:15:15  <sipa> Yeah. And also, only meaningful if you're sure nobody else shared their build transcripts.
629 2022-01-13T21:16:07  <jeremyrubin> luke-jr: i would be more willing to do GUIX builds if I felt it were more clearly communicated that it just meant "I have a computer that ran this"
630 2022-01-13T21:16:23  <jeremyrubin> maybe i can mitigate that by doing multiple guix builds and having a key-per-machine
631 2022-01-13T21:16:39  <jeremyrubin> so it's clear the signature is jeremyrubin-build-machine-1, and not jeremyrubin
632 2022-01-13T21:17:08  <sipa> I don't think that adds anything. The trust is derived from the person administering the machine.
633 2022-01-13T21:17:57  *** Kaizen_Kintsugi_ <Kaizen_Kintsugi_!Kaizen_Kin@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/kaizenkintsugi/x-74018745> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
634 2022-01-13T21:19:11  <luke-jr> jeremyrubin: I mean, you can always use --sig-notation to add arbitrary disclaimers and such too
635 2022-01-13T21:19:27  <jeremyrubin> sipa: i think it does? sure trust is from the administration of the machine, but if i can tell people how i set up jeremyrubin-machine-1 and maintain it, it makes more clear what they're trusting me for
636 2022-01-13T21:21:03  <jeremyrubin> e.g., if i wanted to mitigate supply chain issues i might compile it on 5 different machines for myself *anyways*
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638 2022-01-13T21:22:40  <jeremyrubin> provoostenator sipa achow101: i posted my 'transaction lifetime' post btw, thanks for the feedback earlier
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640 2022-01-13T21:23:30  <jeremyrubin> if you would like i can open GH issues for those topics separately for at least core to DTRT
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647 2022-01-13T22:25:20  <michaelfolkson> [21:10:24]  <lukedashjr> michaelfolkson: cryptography has no meaning at all, except what people understand it to mean
648 2022-01-13T22:26:40  <michaelfolkson> No meaning at all is a bit strong. At the very least you are proving you own a private key. And if you sign a statement with a private key only you own you are indicating you support that statement
649 2022-01-13T22:27:17  <sipa> I think what luke means is that the interpretation of that statement is up to humans, in this context.
650 2022-01-13T22:27:34  <michaelfolkson> Right, ok
651 2022-01-13T22:27:43  <sipa> It's a bit strong to generalize to all cryptography. In particularly, encryption doesn't generally suffer from such interpretation issues.
652 2022-01-13T22:28:41  <sipa> Though I guess you can come up with scenarios where receiving a message that contains a certain decryption has a certain humam meaning too.
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663 2022-01-13T23:02:31  <jeremyrubin> sipa: actually encyrption in particular does suffer from this, since in order to be a secure encryption all ciphertexts must be equally likely :p
664 2022-01-13T23:02:43  <jeremyrubin> so the ciphertext must be completely meaningless :p
665 2022-01-13T23:04:25  <sipa> That's not true. All that is required is that the attacker cannot learn anything that they do not already know, from the ciphertext, if they don't know the key
666 2022-01-13T23:05:32  <sipa> Oh, the ciphertext!
667 2022-01-13T23:06:29  <sipa> Well, that's still not true, because it only needs to hold for an attacker that does not have the key.
668 2022-01-13T23:07:17  <sipa> And unless you're working with information theoretical security, the criterion isn't that all ciphertexts should be equally likely. Only that a computationally bounded attacker cannot distinguish it from random.
669 2022-01-13T23:07:53  <jeremyrubin> equally likely up to a negligible based on your computational bound ;)
670 2022-01-13T23:08:31  <jeremyrubin> but that is the textbook definition iirc.
671 2022-01-13T23:09:02  <jeremyrubin> but you can't even know that you have 'the key'. e.g., there could be encryptions where you can make different keys decrypt to two different valid (containing a hash commit?) messages
672 2022-01-13T23:10:03  <jeremyrubin> enc(k1, k2, m1, m2) = c s.t. dec(k1, c) = m1, dec(k2, c) = m2. (perhaps you could prove that's not possible, but it certainly seems something you could describe)
673 2022-01-13T23:10:30  <jeremyrubin> 'deniable encryption'
674 2022-01-13T23:10:49  <sipa> I don't think even that holds. In particular, for long messages with some mode AES256, if there are only two possible plaintexts, there are only 2^256 (keys) * 2^256 (IVs) * 2 (plaintexts) possible ciphertexts, but the ciphertext may be much longer than 513 bits.
675 2022-01-13T23:11:18  <jeremyrubin> you're saying there exists an encryption where this property doesn't hold
676 2022-01-13T23:11:24  <jeremyrubin> which is not a valid counter to
677 2022-01-13T23:11:25  <sipa> But that can still be semantically secure.
678 2022-01-13T23:11:41  <jeremyrubin> there may exist an encryption where this is possible
679 2022-01-13T23:11:54  <jeremyrubin> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deniable_encryption
680 2022-01-13T23:12:30  <sipa> I'm saying this example would still be considered secure, because the distribution is computationally indistinguishable from uniform, despite being very much nonuniform.
681 2022-01-13T23:12:32  <jeremyrubin> in any case we're at a hugh level of pedantism for #bitcoin-core-dev, we could chat on wizards about it more
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