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 91 2022-04-07T09:06:07  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 6 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/41720a1f540e...d844b5e79994
 92 2022-04-07T09:06:07  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 09f32cf glozow: [docs] package feerate
 93 2022-04-07T09:06:07  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 17a8ffd glozow: [packages/policy] use package feerate in package validation
 94 2022-04-07T09:06:07  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 1b93748 glozow: [validation] try individual validation before package validation
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 97 2022-04-07T09:06:21  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #24152: policy / validation: CPFP fee bumping within packages (master...package-cpfp) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24152
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100 2022-04-07T09:07:35  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/d844b5e79994...5c80d9b72d6b
101 2022-04-07T09:07:35  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master b72925e fanquake: lint: remove qt SIGNAL/SLOT lint
102 2022-04-07T09:07:35  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 5c80d9b fanquake: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#24790: lint: remove qt SIGNAL/SLOT lint
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105 2022-04-07T09:07:49  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake merged pull request #24790: lint: remove qt SIGNAL/SLOT lint (master...remove_qt_lint) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24790
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114 2022-04-07T09:56:00  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/5c80d9b72d6b...323d4c09c090
115 2022-04-07T09:56:00  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fff9141 phyBrackets: refactor: Remove deduplication of data in rollingbloom bench
116 2022-04-07T09:56:00  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 323d4c0 MarcoFalke: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#24784: refactor: deduplicate integer serialization i...
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119 2022-04-07T09:56:17  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #24784: refactor: deduplicate integer serialization in RollingBloom benchmark (master...rebased_fixedd_24088) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24784
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130 2022-04-07T10:44:18  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #24159: tests: commit-script-check.sh - use gsed if exists (master...1643135199-test-lint-comit-script) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24159
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139 2022-04-07T11:35:09  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #24697: refactor: Address relay time refactors (master...2203-refactor-addr-relay-time-🌦) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24697
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147 2022-04-07T11:58:19  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #24796: lint: misc updates & fixes (master...spelling) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24796
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157 2022-04-07T12:36:27  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #24796: lint: misc updates & fixes (master...spelling) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24796
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163 2022-04-07T13:33:11  <laanwj> huh
164 2022-04-07T13:33:39  <laanwj> oh, misdetected merge
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167 2022-04-07T13:54:56  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] brunoerg opened pull request #24797: test: compare `/chaininfo` response with `getblockchaininfo` RPC (master...2022-04-compare-blockchaininfo-rest-chaininfo) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24797
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170 2022-04-07T14:11:17  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #24798: [POC] build: Hello Qt 6 (master...220406-qt6) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24798
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189 2022-04-07T15:42:41  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sipa opened pull request #24799: Add test case mimicking issue 24765 (master...202204_try24765) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24799
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200 2022-04-07T16:18:34  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] KevinMusgrave opened pull request #24800: lint: convert lint-python-mutable-default-parameters.sh to Python (master...port-lint-script-to-python) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24800
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216 2022-04-07T18:12:23  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Eunoia1729 opened pull request #24802: lint: convert format strings linter test to python (master...lint-format-strings-py) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24802
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223 2022-04-07T19:00:17  <laanwj> #startmeeting
224 2022-04-07T19:00:17  <core-meetingbot> Meeting started Thu Apr  7 19:00:17 2022 UTC.  The chair is laanwj. Information about MeetBot at https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings.
225 2022-04-07T19:00:18  <core-meetingbot> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
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227 2022-04-07T19:00:38  <hebasto> hi
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229 2022-04-07T19:00:55  <laanwj> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: achow101 _aj_ amiti ariard BlueMatt cfields Chris_Stewart_5 darosior digi_james dongcarl elichai2 emilengler fanquake fjahr gleb glozow gmaxwell gwillen hebasto instagibbs jamesob jarolrod jb55 jeremyrubin jl2012 jnewbery jonasschnelli jonatack jtimon kallewoof kanzure kvaciral laanwj larryruane lightlike luke-jr maaku marcofalke meshcollider michagogo moneyball
230 2022-04-07T19:00:57  <laanwj> morcos nehan NicolasDorier paveljanik petertodd phantomcircuit promag provoostenator ryanofsky sdaftuar sipa vasild
231 2022-04-07T19:01:04  <jonatack>  hi
232 2022-04-07T19:01:06  <fanquake> hi
233 2022-04-07T19:01:07  <laanwj> welcome to the weekly general bitcoin-core-dev meeting
234 2022-04-07T19:01:08  <sipa> hi
235 2022-04-07T19:01:18  <cfields> hi
236 2022-04-07T19:01:42  <laanwj> no meeting topics have been proposed in advance (you can propose meeting topics with #proposedmeetingtopic <topic> during any time of the week)
237 2022-04-07T19:01:49  <laanwj> any last minute ones?
238 2022-04-07T19:01:54  <jonatack> #proposedmeetingtopic approach regarding user behavior and config options deprecation (e.g. adjusted time)
239 2022-04-07T19:02:18  <laanwj> ok!
240 2022-04-07T19:02:34  <lightlike> hi
241 2022-04-07T19:02:56  <laanwj> let's start with high priority for review as usual
242 2022-04-07T19:03:01  <laanwj> #topic High priority for review
243 2022-04-07T19:03:02  <core-meetingbot> topic: High priority for review
244 2022-04-07T19:03:38  <laanwj> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8  10 blockers, 1 chasing concept ACK
245 2022-04-07T19:03:58  <fanquake> I'll add #22380. Should probably get that in at some point
246 2022-04-07T19:03:58  <laanwj> anything to add/remove, or that is on the list and almost ready for merge?
247 2022-04-07T19:03:59  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/22380 | build: add and use C_STANDARD and CXX_STANDARD in depends by fanquake · Pull Request #22380 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
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249 2022-04-07T19:04:55  <laanwj> fanquake: ok
250 2022-04-07T19:07:02  <laanwj> oh PSA: i've started testing BIP324 P2P v2 (#24545) on a node, let me know if you want to also test and connect
251 2022-04-07T19:07:04  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/24545 | BIP324: Enable v2 P2P encrypted transport by dhruv · Pull Request #24545 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
252 2022-04-07T19:07:17  <jonatack> laanwj: +1
253 2022-04-07T19:07:19  <laanwj> (in private is fine, this is not a meeting topic)
254 2022-04-07T19:07:22  <jonatack> great, i plan to
255 2022-04-07T19:07:50  <laanwj> cool!
256 2022-04-07T19:08:10  <lightlike> maybe #21726 could be close (after next rebase)?
257 2022-04-07T19:08:13  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/21726 | Improve Indices on pruned nodes via prune blockers by fjahr · Pull Request #21726 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
258 2022-04-07T19:08:42  <sipa> note that BIP324's spec is undergoing some changes still... the protocol will likely not be interoperable
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260 2022-04-07T19:09:25  <laanwj> lightlike: it does still have some unaddrssed comments, agree it's close though
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262 2022-04-07T19:10:06  <laanwj> sipa: right, that's good to make clear
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264 2022-04-07T19:11:52  <laanwj> #topic Approach regarding user behavior and config options deprecation (jonatack)
265 2022-04-07T19:11:52  <core-meetingbot> topic: Approach regarding user behavior and config options deprecation (jonatack)
266 2022-04-07T19:12:03  <jonatack> hi! i've prepared a dozen lines on this then propose we open up for discussion
267 2022-04-07T19:12:11  <jonatack> there has been discussion recently on the topic of removing the adjusted time code
268 2022-04-07T19:12:21  <jonatack> which has been been in bitcoin core since the first commit in the git log
269 2022-04-07T19:12:33  <jonatack> there is some good refactoring that can be done
270 2022-04-07T19:12:38  <jonatack> nevertheless, i'm somewhat uncomfortable with the approach i'm seeing
271 2022-04-07T19:12:57  <jonatack> in that we may be making what are essentially product management decisions, to drop a feature and configuration option
272 2022-04-07T19:13:21  <jonatack> without a deprecation period or optionality for users
273 2022-04-07T19:13:52  <laanwj> i like the approach to first default the setting to 0
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275 2022-04-07T19:13:55  <jonatack> the idea seems to be based eagerness to get started removing it and on on speculation or hand-wavey logic about what users would do (or never do)
276 2022-04-07T19:14:07  <jonatack> i worry that it's not necessarily a good basis for making these decisions, and in some contexts a flimsy one
277 2022-04-07T19:14:16  <jonatack> istm users aren't necessarily logical, and if users can do something, then some likely will
278 2022-04-07T19:14:23  <jonatack> i checked in with a couple of well-known Bitcoin PMs today and they aren't aware
279 2022-04-07T19:14:24  <jonatack> of any Bitcoin Core user studies on this topic (which doesn't seem surprising,
280 2022-04-07T19:14:24  <jonatack> and maybe they are busy in miami atm, but the answer was: "no idea")
281 2022-04-07T19:14:26  <laanwj> my main problem with adjusted time is that it just doesn't do what it's supposed to do, it is a false promise, and unsafe
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283 2022-04-07T19:15:09  <sipa> i wouldn't consider time adjustment to be a user-visible feature
284 2022-04-07T19:15:19  <jonatack> yes. though if we don't know if people depend on it, perhaps we can proceed on that basis
285 2022-04-07T19:15:21  <fanquake> Yes. This isn't quite like deprecating a well-used RPC
286 2022-04-07T19:15:27  <sipa> removing/changing it shouldn't affect user experience
287 2022-04-07T19:15:28  <laanwj> how can people *depend* on it?
288 2022-04-07T19:15:51  <jonatack> in conclusion, it seems like a deprecation process for configuration options would be of help here, and maybe save us discussion going forward.
289 2022-04-07T19:15:54  <fanquake> If we want a period of deprecation, I'm also unsure how changing the default helps things? That isn't going to communicate anything to users who are actually setting it right?
290 2022-04-07T19:16:21  <laanwj> i would agree for user visible wallet features and such
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292 2022-04-07T19:16:57  <sipa> RPC / REST / Wallet behavior / UI features / ... changes need a deprecation plan
293 2022-04-07T19:17:28  <laanwj> yes
294 2022-04-07T19:17:30  <sipa> but time adjustment is just an internal algorithm... if we believe that not doing it is better than what we have, we should get rid of it
295 2022-04-07T19:17:45  <fanquake> and if the feature is broken, and that brokenness is leaking out into other parts of the codebase, it would just seem better to remove it.
296 2022-04-07T19:18:33  <fanquake> for anyone following along the related PRs are #24606 and #24662
297 2022-04-07T19:18:35  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/24606 | Change -maxtimeadjustment default from 70 minutes to 0 by jonatack · Pull Request #24606 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
298 2022-04-07T19:18:36  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/24662 | addrman: Use system time instead of adjusted network time by MarcoFalke · Pull Request #24662 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
299 2022-04-07T19:18:39  <jonatack> istm that starting by changing the default first, for a release or so, reduces  risk and provides optionality for us (i.e. code reversion) and for users  -- unless there is an urgent need for change, or unless we are certain that it no one uses or depends on it
300 2022-04-07T19:18:49  <laanwj> there are some things we'd really want to be careful around, like anything that potentialy causes coins to be unspendable, or makes old wallets unusable
301 2022-04-07T19:19:45  <sipa> if we're unsure that not doing adjustment is better than what we have, defaulting it to max 0 minutes at first makes it somewhat easier to reintroduce
302 2022-04-07T19:20:01  <laanwj> yes
303 2022-04-07T19:20:03  <sipa> but that's more about how certain we are it's an improvement, than about user expectations
304 2022-04-07T19:22:35  <laanwj> in any case, i'm fine with first defaulting it to 0 for a release, then if no one reports problems due to that (however unlikely), really remove it a major release later
305 2022-04-07T19:22:52  <fanquake> I think turning the option into a no-op, without making it somehow apparent to users who are currently using it, would surely also just undermine user expectations if anything?
306 2022-04-07T19:23:12  <laanwj> no, if you remove it, specifying it should be an error
307 2022-04-07T19:23:16  <laanwj> silently ignoring options is really bad
308 2022-04-07T19:23:34  <fanquake> by no-op I mean changing the default to 0
309 2022-04-07T19:23:56  <fanquake> then we'd have an option that is confusing / doesn't do anything for new users
310 2022-04-07T19:23:58  <laanwj> yes, but you can mention it in the release notes
311 2022-04-07T19:24:08  <fanquake> and for anyone already setting it, they just wont notice anyway
312 2022-04-07T19:24:28  <fanquake> if anything you'd probably be better off with just the release note?
313 2022-04-07T19:24:30  <laanwj> that if they rely on the feature (unlikely), they can specify the option for now
314 2022-04-07T19:24:38  *** Kaizen_Kintsugi_ <Kaizen_Kintsugi_!Kaizen_Kin@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/kaizenkintsugi/x-74018745> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
315 2022-04-07T19:24:45  <laanwj> well if it causes problems they can report it as an issue?
316 2022-04-07T19:24:50  <laanwj> then set the setting
317 2022-04-07T19:25:03  <laanwj> it's easier to do without recompile
318 2022-04-07T19:25:06  <sipa> if we want people to complain if they're intentionally setting the option, because they rely on it, we should remove the option to configure it first
319 2022-04-07T19:25:29  <sipa> ... but I can't imagine that being the case, really
320 2022-04-07T19:25:31  <laanwj> yea, ok...
321 2022-04-07T19:25:43  <lightlike> I don't really see how changing it globally to 0 reduces risk, I'd think it's more risky. Removing it step by step makes reviewer think about the location it is used, and about possible consequences. And maybe there are completely different things to take into account in validation than in addrman.
322 2022-04-07T19:25:43  <laanwj> maybe log a deprecation notice first
323 2022-04-07T19:25:47  <_aj_> for this, it seems easier to fix your computer's time than to complain about it...
324 2022-04-07T19:26:02  <sipa> +1 aj
325 2022-04-07T19:26:17  <laanwj> yes, if you know you have problems with you rsystem time, it's better to fix it at the source
326 2022-04-07T19:26:57  <jonatack> users may not behave logically or the way we think they do, though
327 2022-04-07T19:27:05  <laanwj> lightlike: agree, in addrman it seems pointless in any case
328 2022-04-07T19:27:27  <fanquake> there's not much we can do about a user who just refuses to fix their clock
329 2022-04-07T19:27:38  <_aj_> (adding a gui warning if your peers are advertising a different time than you have could be useful, though; i thought that was mentioned in the PRs, can't remember if it went anywhere)
330 2022-04-07T19:27:45  <laanwj> the clock can't be *that* far off anyway
331 2022-04-07T19:27:47  <fanquake> they've probably got other non-bitcoin issues in that case too
332 2022-04-07T19:27:55  <laanwj> as it won't compensate that far
333 2022-04-07T19:27:58  <laanwj> right
334 2022-04-07T19:28:02  <jonatack> lightlike: that seems orthogonal (reviewer approach)
335 2022-04-07T19:28:13  <sipa> being even minutes off probably doesn't hurt much even
336 2022-04-07T19:28:28  <sipa> and we don't correct more than 60 or 70 minutes iirc?
337 2022-04-07T19:28:36  <laanwj> sipa: right
338 2022-04-07T19:28:39  *** Kaizen_Kintsugi_ <Kaizen_Kintsugi_!Kaizen_Kin@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/kaizenkintsugi/x-74018745> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
339 2022-04-07T19:29:24  <laanwj> pretty sure there are many things more time sensitive than bitcoin, e.g. 2fa tokens
340 2022-04-07T19:29:40  <sipa> indeed
341 2022-04-07T19:29:48  <sipa> that was different in 2009
342 2022-04-07T19:30:35  <laanwj> right, i don't think ntp was even default on most OSes back then
343 2022-04-07T19:31:08  *** mikolaj <mikolaj!~mikolaj@2a02:a31c:300:d780:6f58:b8e0:895e:bde5> has quit IRC (Quit: mikolaj)
344 2022-04-07T19:31:26  <sipa> ntp being unauthenticated is a problem, probably a bigger one than the issues enabled by bitcoin's time adjustment... but nothing we can do about
345 2022-04-07T19:33:00  <laanwj> i mean if bitcoin's time adjustment was a serious contender for protecting against ntp attacks things would be different, but it is effectively unmaintained, never reasoned about code, with known unfixed issues for years
346 2022-04-07T19:33:30  <laanwj> but i feel we already had this discussion very recently
347 2022-04-07T19:34:49  <jonatack> yes, it's more the process that's in question i think
348 2022-04-07T19:34:52  <laanwj> i get the idea this gets really blown out of proportion compared to the impact
349 2022-04-07T19:35:21  <laanwj> there's probably a few more risky things we merge each week than this particular deprecation
350 2022-04-07T19:35:31  <fanquake> Yea. Getting rid of this is hardly like getting rid of getinfo
351 2022-04-07T19:35:37  <laanwj> right
352 2022-04-07T19:36:10  <sipa> agree
353 2022-04-07T19:36:19  *** Talkless <Talkless!~Talkless@mail.dargis.net> has quit IRC (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
354 2022-04-07T19:37:26  *** Kaizen_Kintsugi_ <Kaizen_Kintsugi_!Kaizen_Kin@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/kaizenkintsugi/x-74018745> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
355 2022-04-07T19:37:40  <laanwj> jonatack: how would you propose to move forward with this, then
356 2022-04-07T19:39:24  <laanwj> i mean the "set the default to 0" PR is yours so i guess that'd be the first step?
357 2022-04-07T19:39:33  *** Kaizen_Kintsugi_ <Kaizen_Kintsugi_!Kaizen_Kin@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/kaizenkintsugi/x-74018745> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
358 2022-04-07T19:39:39  <laanwj> then what next release?
359 2022-04-07T19:40:00  <jonatack> laanwj: when i was doing PM at L'Oreal a looong time ago (early 90s) it was hammered into me to never guess or assume what users do. I don't feel competent to say more than that here yet
360 2022-04-07T19:41:05  <jonatack> and that's maybe not transferable to this context, but if we're not in a hurry and not sure, yeah
361 2022-04-07T19:42:10  <jonatack> i could be wrong of course, and will learn from why
362 2022-04-07T19:42:19  <laanwj> i guess that's good general advice, but to do development at all you need to make some assumptions, like in a way a program is a set of assumptions, if not, everyone would have to write their own for their specific context and situation
363 2022-04-07T19:42:33  <_aj_> hmm, shouldn't the version messages listening nodes receive be able to give a good indication how out-of-sync random nodes tend to be?
364 2022-04-07T19:43:04  <fanquake> my assumption is that basically everyone running a node, other than people in this channel, have likely never even heard of this option, let alone changed it in some meaningful way
365 2022-04-07T19:43:33  <sipa> _aj_: the numbers may be skewed because those numbers themselves are subject to adjustment?
366 2022-04-07T19:44:38  <_aj_> sipa: and doesn't look like they're logged after the buffer gets filled either
367 2022-04-07T19:45:17  <sipa> jonatack: I think we shouldn't think of configuration options themselves as features; they may be part of one, but not on their own. And for configuration options, I like the general advice I once heard: don't add a means to configure if you can't explain or give advice about when someone should set it. For maxtimeadjustment my advice would be: set it to 0, because if you have a need to set it to anything else your system is broken.
368 2022-04-07T19:45:33  <laanwj> in any case, that's not a deprecation plan
369 2022-04-07T19:45:41  <_aj_> sipa: i guess non bitcoind nodes don't do adjustment, so messages from light clients might give an indication of how many systems are out of sync?
370 2022-04-07T19:46:04  <laanwj> sipa: right
371 2022-04-07T19:46:28  <sipa> _aj_: That'd only tell us how many light clients are out of sync, which may be very different from how often bitcoin core nodes are.
372 2022-04-07T19:46:41  <sipa> (in positive or negative sense)
373 2022-04-07T19:47:19  <laanwj> id say light clients would tend to be biased towards phones which have many ways of potential time synchronization
374 2022-04-07T19:47:28  <jonatack> sipa: agree. but how to remove a config option once it's there?
375 2022-04-07T19:47:53  <fanquake> my deprecation plan would just be to just remove the option, and all of the old, broken code, prior to the 24.x branch off. If anyone who was using it even notices, and then for some reason, can't seem to operate without it, they could remain on 23.x while we figure out a non-broken, actually reasoned about alternative, that we could explain to them how to use (if we even want to do something like that going forward).
376 2022-04-07T19:48:03  <laanwj> jonatack: that should be considered on a case by case basis i think, like what and how much effect does it have
377 2022-04-07T19:48:08  <jonatack> (this may come up again if we add sat/vB config options to replace BTC/kvB ones)
378 2022-04-07T19:48:34  <sipa> jonatack: I think that's different; that's RPC, which is a user interface.
379 2022-04-07T19:48:53  <sipa> There we need migration options, and be sensitive on people relying on it.
380 2022-04-07T19:48:54  <lightlike> _aj_: the behavior used to be different for inbound/outbound (until #23695). For outbound connections, we always used the unadjusted time I think.
381 2022-04-07T19:48:56  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/23695 | p2p: Always serialize local timestamp for version msg by MarcoFalke · Pull Request #23695 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
382 2022-04-07T19:49:22  <laanwj> fanquake: right! we shouldn't forget people always have the option of staying on an older release until something is resolved
383 2022-04-07T19:49:23  <sipa> lightlike: Oh, interesting.
384 2022-04-07T19:49:52  <laanwj> it's not some kind of cloud service where people are forced to the newest version
385 2022-04-07T19:50:48  <fanquake> Yes, and if it comes to it, and there's one stubborn user who just wont budge, I'll buy them a fancy new computer, with a working clock, and we remain forgetful of this code
386 2022-04-07T19:50:58  <sipa> A deprecation plan for time adjustment may be (a) just removing it and see who complains (because of a well-reasoned assumption that nobody actually needs it). (b) removing it, but adding for 1 or 2 major releases a trigger if it's set that explains why it was removed, and what to do about it (c) using something like -deprecatedrpc where you inform bitcoind that you're working on getting rid of your dependency on it, but need it for a little while longer.
387 2022-04-07T19:51:38  <sipa> But there is more at stake here than just removing the "be tolerant to bad clocks" feature - having it in the first place I think is a (albeit small) risk on itself to the network.
388 2022-04-07T19:51:42  <_aj_> ("secure ntp" aka "nts" is a thing these days apparently)
389 2022-04-07T19:52:34  <laanwj> _aj_: which is the place where this should be solved, by people who study it and are specialized in it, fixing internet time sync is out of scope for bitcoin
390 2022-04-07T19:53:49  <laanwj> i tend toward either (1) default the option to 0 for 24.0, then remove it entirely in 25.0 or 2) just remove it entirely for 24.0, we'll see if people complain
391 2022-04-07T19:54:15  <laanwj> with 'remove it' i mean removing both the option and the functionality
392 2022-04-07T19:54:44  <sipa> _aj_: So, actually, we can observe how much nodes are off just fine, on inbound connections, because bitcoind on outbound seems to not be using adjusted time.
393 2022-04-07T19:54:49  <fanquake> My vote is for 2), and the further refactoring / code improvements it will enable
394 2022-04-07T19:54:59  <sipa> I'm fine with both (1) and (2).
395 2022-04-07T19:55:05  <_aj_> sipa: need to update logging to actually log that info though, yeah
396 2022-04-07T19:55:11  <laanwj> fanquake: is it blocking some other things?
397 2022-04-07T19:56:36  <fanquake> my understanding is that the affected code overlaps with other addrman / time related refactors, migrating further towards chrono etc
398 2022-04-07T19:56:57  <fanquake> unsure about in validation, I don't think there is a PR open for the removal there yet either
399 2022-04-07T19:57:16  <laanwj> re: "it's been in there since the first git release", we really shouldn't be sentimental about code, it'll always be there in git history :)
400 2022-04-07T19:57:49  <fanquake> in the worst case everything can always just be recovered from there too
401 2022-04-07T19:57:58  <fanquake> there are some demons hiding in .git
402 2022-04-07T19:58:00  <laanwj> right
403 2022-04-07T19:58:22  <jonatack> there is indeed user folklore about it but agree about not being sentimental
404 2022-04-07T19:58:44  <jonatack> the folklore can remain without the code
405 2022-04-07T19:59:29  <laanwj> exactly!
406 2022-04-07T20:00:01  <_aj_> okay, i've got some logging going, see if i catch any peers with a signfiicant delta
407 2022-04-07T20:00:31  <laanwj> and with that, we should probably close the meeting
408 2022-04-07T20:00:43  <sipa> it is indeed robot time
409 2022-04-07T20:00:45  <jonatack> oops, yes
410 2022-04-07T20:00:47  <laanwj> #endmeeting
411 2022-04-07T20:00:47  <core-meetingbot> topic: Bitcoin Core development discussion and commit log | Feel free to watch, but please take commentary and usage questions to #bitcoin | Channel logs: http://www.erisian.com.au/bitcoin-core-dev/, http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/ | Meeting topics http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedmeetingtopics.txt / http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedwalletmeetingtopics.txt
412 2022-04-07T20:00:47  <core-meetingbot> Meeting ended Thu Apr  7 20:00:47 2022 UTC.
413 2022-04-07T20:00:47  <core-meetingbot> Minutes:        https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings/logs/bitcoin-core-dev/2022/bitcoin-core-dev.2022-04-07-19.00.moin.txt
414 2022-04-07T20:01:00  <sipa> (https://www.robotreboot.com)
415 2022-04-07T20:01:25  *** bitcoin-git <bitcoin-git!~bitcoin-g@x0f.org> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
416 2022-04-07T20:01:25  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto closed pull request #24781: build, qt: Drop unneeded direct dependency on freetype (master...220406-freetype) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24781
417 2022-04-07T20:01:25  *** bitcoin-git <bitcoin-git!~bitcoin-g@x0f.org> has left #bitcoin-core-dev
418 2022-04-07T20:01:47  <lightlike> _aj_: might be interesting to look at inbound/outbound peers separately, see if there is a statistical difference.
419 2022-04-07T20:03:57  <laanwj> clearly the real solution is to make bitcoin consensus independent of clock time :p
420 2022-04-07T20:04:09  <sipa> ACK
421 2022-04-07T20:04:36  <fanquake> 1 less dependency
422 2022-04-07T20:04:51  *** ___nick___ <___nick___!~quassel@cpc68286-cdif17-2-0-cust533.5-1.cable.virginm.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
423 2022-04-07T20:06:20  <_aj_> laanwj: from timechain to timelesschain?
424 2022-04-07T20:07:31  <_aj_> lightlike: 2022-04-07T20:06:37Z VERSION message delta=-76 nTime=1649361921 ip=XXX inbound ver=70015 subver=/Satoshi:0.20.1/  -- is what i'm getting (ip redacted)
425 2022-04-07T20:08:31  <_aj_> +       LogPrintf("VERSION message delta=%s nTime=%s ip=%s %s ver=%d subver=%s\n", nTimeOffset, nTime, pfrom.addr.ToString(), pfrom.ConnectionTypeAsString(), pfrom.nVersion, cleanSubVer);
426 2022-04-07T20:09:09  <sipa> _aj_: I have a node with 260 incoming connections (no idea if that's a lot or not now). Want me to run that?
427 2022-04-07T20:09:49  <jonatack> sipa: how much uptime to get that many? o-O
428 2022-04-07T20:10:08  <sipa> $ ./src/bitcoin-cli uptime
429 2022-04-07T20:10:08  <sipa> 537246
430 2022-04-07T20:10:09  <_aj_> sipa: could be fun? bitcoin-cli getpeerinfo | jq .[].timeoffset | sort -n   -- for current connections?
431 2022-04-07T20:10:11  <sipa> less than a week
432 2022-04-07T20:10:28  <jonatack> huh
433 2022-04-07T20:10:34  <laanwj> _aj_: timeisonlyanillusionchain
434 2022-04-07T20:11:22  <_aj_> laanwj: time is only an allusion
435 2022-04-07T20:11:30  <sipa> $ ./src/bitcoin-cli getpeerinfo | jq '.[] | select(.inbound) | select(.timeoffset>0) | .timeoffset' | wc
436 2022-04-07T20:11:30  <sipa>       8       8      20
437 2022-04-07T20:11:58  <sipa> 8 out of 253 inbound connections have timeoffset>0
438 2022-04-07T20:12:05  <sipa> 2 have timeoffset>1
439 2022-04-07T20:12:16  <sipa> those two are 30s and 3788s off
440 2022-04-07T20:12:33  <jonatack> i've generally been -4 here per getnetworkinfo
441 2022-04-07T20:12:48  *** Kaizen_Kintsugi_ <Kaizen_Kintsugi_!Kaizen_Kin@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/kaizenkintsugi/x-74018745> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
442 2022-04-07T20:13:05  *** Guyver2 <Guyver2!~Guyver@guyver2.xs4all.nl> has quit IRC (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com))
443 2022-04-07T20:13:09  <_aj_> i have a 0.19.0.1 node that claims an offset of 1046 (17min)  and a nodes.mom.market:0.2 (?) one that says -1795
444 2022-04-07T20:13:29  <sipa> kanzure: gnusha.org logging off this channels seems to have stopped
445 2022-04-07T20:15:25  <sipa> the 3788s off one is a /Satoshi:0.16.2/ node
446 2022-04-07T20:24:21  *** Kaizen_Kintsugi_ <Kaizen_Kintsugi_!Kaizen_Kin@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/kaizenkintsugi/x-74018745> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
447 2022-04-07T20:27:01  <laanwj> i also have two nodes.mom.market connections that have timeoffsets -1794 and -1795, i think they made a coding mistake where they send the local time instead of utc
448 2022-04-07T20:27:17  *** bitcoin-git <bitcoin-git!~bitcoin-g@x0f.org> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
449 2022-04-07T20:27:17  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Eunoia1729 opened pull request #24803: linnt: convert submodule linter test to Python (master...lint-submodule-py) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/24803
450 2022-04-07T20:27:17  *** bitcoin-git <bitcoin-git!~bitcoin-g@x0f.org> has left #bitcoin-core-dev
451 2022-04-07T20:28:06  <laanwj> though that's... half an hour, no, that wouldn't make sense
452 2022-04-07T20:31:11  <lightlike> can you geolocate the ip, if they are from some place on earth with a weird 30min time zone?
453 2022-04-07T20:31:21  <jonatack> yes ^^
454 2022-04-07T20:37:21  *** brunoerg <brunoerg!~brunoerg@2804:14d:5281:8ae2:c86d:3b33:52f1:a0c4> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
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457 2022-04-07T20:44:53  <laanwj> it seems to be the same node, connected over ipv4 and ipv6, and it's in some datacenter in the Netherlands (UpCloud Ltd)
458 2022-04-07T20:46:00  *** Kaizen_Kintsugi_ <Kaizen_Kintsugi_!Kaizen_Kin@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/kaizenkintsugi/x-74018745> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
459 2022-04-07T20:46:31  <laanwj> so no, no explanation
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462 2022-04-07T20:55:59  <laanwj> sipa: you probably want to use timeoffset!=0 in your query, not >0
463 2022-04-07T20:56:14  <sipa> Oh, right.
464 2022-04-07T20:56:28  <laanwj> (no, jq doesn't have an abs function)
465 2022-04-07T20:56:56  *** rex4539 <rex4539!~rex4539@gateway/tor-sasl/rex4539> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
466 2022-04-07T20:57:11  <sipa> Sorry, my numbers above are totally off.
467 2022-04-07T20:57:37  *** mudsip <mudsip!~mudsip@user/mudsip> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
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475 2022-04-07T21:17:26  *** Kaizen_Kintsugi_ <Kaizen_Kintsugi_!Kaizen_Kin@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/kaizenkintsugi/x-74018745> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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477 2022-04-07T21:20:33  <jonatack> ₿ ./src/bitcoin-cli getpeerinfo | jq '.[] | select(.inbound) | select(.timeoffset!=0) | .timeoffset' | wc
478 2022-04-07T21:20:33  <jonatack>      25      25      92
479 2022-04-07T21:21:45  <jonatack> out of 45 (27 in, 18 out, node restarted an hour ago)
480 2022-04-07T21:23:15  <jonatack> 3 out of 27 in
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484 2022-04-07T21:30:32  <jonatack> sorry, 25 out of 27 inbounds have timeoffset != 0
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