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1272022-08-18T14:19:53 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] vidrobysh opened pull request #25866: fixed Belarusian (be) translation (master...be_language) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/25866
1282022-08-18T14:21:26 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #25866: Fixed Belarusian (be) translation (master...be_language) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/25866
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1612022-08-18T18:30:24 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] llazzaro opened pull request #25867: lint: enable E722 do not use bare except (master...master) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/25867
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1682022-08-18T19:00:58 <laanwj> #startmeeting
1692022-08-18T19:01:08 <jarolrod> Hi
1702022-08-18T19:01:11 <achow101> hi
1712022-08-18T19:01:13 <hebasto> hi
1722022-08-18T19:01:20 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o core-meetingbot
1732022-08-18T19:01:25 <jonatack> hi
1742022-08-18T19:01:31 <furszy> hi
1752022-08-18T19:01:46 <laanwj> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: achow101 _aj_ amiti ariard b10c BlueMatt cfields Chris_Stewart_5 darosior digi_james dongcarl elichai2 emilengler fanquake fjahr gleb glozow gmaxwell gwillen hebasto instagibbs jamesob jarolrod jb55 jeremyrubin jl2012 jnewbery jonasschnelli jonatack jtimon kallewoof kanzure kvaciral laanwj larryruane lightlike luke-jr maaku marcofalke meshcollider michagogo
1762022-08-18T19:01:48 <laanwj> moneyball morcos nehan NicolasDorier paveljanik petertodd phantomcircuit promag provoostenator ryanofsky sdaftuar sipa vasild
1772022-08-18T19:01:49 <lightlike> hi
1782022-08-18T19:01:56 <laanwj> welcome to the weekly bitcoin-core-dev meeting
1792022-08-18T19:01:57 <ajonas> Hi
1802022-08-18T19:02:05 <cfields> hi
1812022-08-18T19:02:07 <vasild> hi
1822022-08-18T19:02:08 <fanquake> hi
1832022-08-18T19:02:31 <michaelfolkson> hi
1842022-08-18T19:02:51 <laanwj> there have been two proposed meeting topics: 2022-08-11 21:32:46 hebasto #proposedmeetingtopic CMake-based build system (pr25797) 2022-08-12 18:00:23 vasild #proposedmeetingtopic vasild for a new maintainer with a focus on P2P/networking
1852022-08-18T19:03:13 <sipa> hi
1862022-08-18T19:04:03 <laanwj> might also make sense to discuss for the 24.0 milestone (instead of high priority for review)
1872022-08-18T19:04:53 <laanwj> #topic 24.0 milestone
1882022-08-18T19:04:54 <core-meetingbot> topic: 24.0 milestone
1892022-08-18T19:04:59 <Murch> hi
1902022-08-18T19:05:02 <sipsorcery> hi
1912022-08-18T19:05:13 <fanquake> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pulls?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+milestone%3A24.0
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1932022-08-18T19:06:15 <laanwj> anything to add/remove there?
1942022-08-18T19:06:18 <sipa> #25717 is getting closer I think, with some discussed additions added (progress bar/logging), and some complexity removed and postponed to future changes if desired
1952022-08-18T19:06:21 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/25717 | p2p: Implement anti-DoS headers sync by sdaftuar · Pull Request #25717 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
1962022-08-18T19:07:00 <laanwj> great!
1972022-08-18T19:08:03 <laanwj> ok if nothing else, let's move to next topic
1982022-08-18T19:08:34 <laanwj> #topic CMake-based build system (hebasto)
1992022-08-18T19:08:34 <core-meetingbot> topic: CMake-based build system (hebasto)
2002022-08-18T19:08:38 <hebasto> hi
2012022-08-18T19:08:41 <hebasto> #25797 proposes the introduction of a CMake-based build system (CM, for short).
2022022-08-18T19:08:43 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/25797 | build: Add CMake-based build system by hebasto · Pull Request #25797 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
2032022-08-18T19:08:48 <hebasto> The current benefits are outlined in the PR description.
2042022-08-18T19:08:55 <hebasto> As a reminder, the last such scale change was a switch from Gitian to Guix. The first Guix PR #15277 was in v0.19, but only v22.0 was the first Guix-built release.
2052022-08-18T19:08:57 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/15277 | contrib: Enable building in Guix containers by dongcarl · Pull Request #15277 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
2062022-08-18T19:09:02 <hebasto> As for Qt, the Bitcoin Core project packages a GUI, and the GUI is a part of Bitcoin Core. As such, the move to Qt6 will be inevitable. A big motivation for the work on this change is to accommodate for the move to Qt6.
2072022-08-18T19:09:08 <hebasto> A comment in PR mentioned "bells and whistles".
2082022-08-18T19:09:13 <hebasto> Here is my personal motivation disclosure.
2092022-08-18T19:09:20 <hebasto> It is highly likely that my grandchildren will be accessing the bitcoin network using GUI-enabled software. And I'll do my best to ensure that it will be Bitcoin Core.
2102022-08-18T19:09:25 <hebasto> Here are the suggested questions for discussion now
2112022-08-18T19:09:30 <hebasto> 1. Are we open for a CMake-based build system (CM) in general?
2122022-08-18T19:09:36 <hebasto> 2. What is the preferred way to get CM into the repository: (a) a single PR with 100% feature parity, or (b) a series of incremental PRs?
2132022-08-18T19:09:43 <hebasto> 3. How long the old build system and the new one should co-exist / be co-maintained: (a) forever, (b) some release cycles, (c) switch from old to new at once?
2142022-08-18T19:09:52 <hebasto> that is it, let's discuss
2152022-08-18T19:10:54 <jarolrod> Concept ack on cmake, the introduction of this build system doesnât mean we have to remove autotools now
2162022-08-18T19:11:06 <sipa> There has been a lot of (constructive, I think) discussion on this on the PR itself.
2172022-08-18T19:11:16 <sipa> Especially the last few hours.
2182022-08-18T19:11:21 <fanquake> I disagree that a switch from Gitian to Guix is similar to what is being proposed here. Gitian -> Guix was basically internal to our project, autotools -> cmake breaks everything all infrastructure outside project.
2192022-08-18T19:11:39 <fanquake> *all infra outside our project
2202022-08-18T19:11:52 <jonatack> sorry for late addition to the 0.24 topic, it would be nice to get #25614 in for the release in order to resume making progress on the parent PR, the original pull was opened on june 2 and it now has many ACKs (a hopefully-final re-push coming in the next few hours after I finish verifying building each commit, logging changes take a long time to
2212022-08-18T19:11:52 <jonatack> build)
2222022-08-18T19:11:54 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/25614 | logging: add `-loglevel` configuration option and a `trace` log level by jonatack · Pull Request #25614 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
2232022-08-18T19:12:23 <jarolrod> fanquake: we donât have to remove autotools now, and other infra can have time to adjust to cmake
2242022-08-18T19:12:29 <achow101> is it possible to have autotools call cmake internally?
2252022-08-18T19:12:51 <hebasto> achow101: yes, I guess
2262022-08-18T19:12:53 <achow101> to retain compatibliity with any downstream builders without having to actually maintain two build systems
2272022-08-18T19:13:02 <hebasto> Qt did so
2282022-08-18T19:13:11 <cfields> i also take issue with (and resent the implication) that an outside library forces our hand on our own infrastructure. I get that CMake is likely inevitible for us, but qt6 certinaly is not and imo that sets a terrible precedent.
2292022-08-18T19:13:15 <sipa> That seems hard, if cmake doesn't support in-tree builds?
2302022-08-18T19:13:48 <hebasto> cmake supports
2312022-08-18T19:13:54 <vasild> cmake does support in-tree builds
2322022-08-18T19:13:59 <hebasto> current implementation does not
2332022-08-18T19:14:00 <fanquake> jarolrod: I've mentioned on the PR that I'm not in favour of maintaining multiple build systems, at least certainly not over multiple releases.
2342022-08-18T19:14:05 <sipa> oh, i must have misread then
2352022-08-18T19:14:11 <jarolrod> cfields: i think hebasto was stating his personal motivation on working on this now
2362022-08-18T19:14:31 <hebasto> are in-tree builds so viable?
2372022-08-18T19:14:45 <achow101> does qt6 strictly require cmake for using it?
2382022-08-18T19:14:48 <cfields> jarolrod: he said that his motiviation stems from an inevitibility. I'm disagreeing with that.
2392022-08-18T19:14:50 <hebasto> * valuable
2402022-08-18T19:15:09 <hebasto> achow101: to get static builds -- yes
2412022-08-18T19:15:13 <laanwj> in-tree builds with cmake are extremely uncommon, everyene uses out-of-tree builds
2422022-08-18T19:15:22 <hebasto> ^ true
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2442022-08-18T19:15:54 <sipa> I'm not convinced that in-tree builds are necessary to support, nor am I convinced that we necessarily need to make a compatibility layer that works autotools-like but invokes cmake. My point is that if we care about such compatibility, if it then doesn't support in-tree builds as autotools users expect, it is kind of pointless.
2452022-08-18T19:15:57 <vasild> yes, because it is so much straight-forward to just "rm -fr build"
2462022-08-18T19:16:13 <laanwj> vasild: right, for all intents and purposes they're superior
2472022-08-18T19:16:45 <sipa> If we make the choice to move to cmake, I think it's also fine to adopt some of the best practices and expectations that are common around cmake.
2482022-08-18T19:16:49 <cfields> agreed, the out-of-tree builds by default are a nice feature imo.
2492022-08-18T19:16:53 <laanwj> always use them for autotools builds too
2502022-08-18T19:17:11 <fanquake> In regards to 2. I think we need more feature parity before merging. i.e basics like a target for running the unit tests, generating installers etc
2512022-08-18T19:17:28 <hebasto> ^ agree
2522022-08-18T19:17:42 <fanquake> with the assumption that the rest would be filled in before the end of a release cycle.
2532022-08-18T19:18:38 <sipa> I'd say when we merge cmake, we should have (or have the strong expectation to do within the same release) guix builds working with it, as well as CI.
2542022-08-18T19:18:50 <fanquake> Yes, that would also be a requirement I think.
2552022-08-18T19:18:56 <jarolrod> ^^ that's reasonable
2562022-08-18T19:19:20 <vasild> hmm, I never managed to get autotools out-of-source builds work with and create proper compile_commands.json (created in a hackish way using bear(1)), so I use in-source-builds (uck!)... cmake can create compile_commands.json natively
2572022-08-18T19:19:26 <jarolrod> maybe reasonable is too loose of a word :)
2582022-08-18T19:19:39 <shiza> are you removing autotools?
2592022-08-18T19:19:53 <jarolrod> not in the proposed PR
2602022-08-18T19:20:03 <sipa> shiza: opinions appear divided on what the timeline for that would be
2612022-08-18T19:21:29 <shiza> have to remove? can't just let it rot?
2622022-08-18T19:21:45 <cfields> answered as framed? :)
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2642022-08-18T19:21:59 <sipa> if it's not tested anymore, it should be removed
2652022-08-18T19:22:02 <sipa> if it's still tested, it can't be rotting
2662022-08-18T19:22:10 <fanquake> No. Because then there are very blurred expectations about what to fix or not, what feature parity to maintain. Things will break and degrade
2672022-08-18T19:22:25 <fanquake> It'll just be a prolonged migratory mess.
2682022-08-18T19:22:45 <fanquake> ^ in response to "let it rot"
2692022-08-18T19:23:18 <jarolrod> well if we write it off as such at the start, and people "dont care" maybe. But if we work on it, it wouldn't be a mess
2702022-08-18T19:24:17 <jarolrod> such as the example of the switch form gitian to guix
2712022-08-18T19:24:28 <laanwj> can't think of any reason to leave a 'rotting' build system, same reason not to leave unused code in, if you really need it you can always get it from git history
2722022-08-18T19:24:37 <shiza> Oh meeting in progress
2732022-08-18T19:24:40 * shiza leaves in shame
2742022-08-18T19:25:56 <sipa> I personally believe shortening the transition period as much as possible is better, and we shouldn't merge before it's clear that a short transition is possible.
2752022-08-18T19:26:15 <jarolrod> i also think there's a lot of holes in the discussion here, not sure what to discuss on timeline or anything, maybe revisit again in another meeting as there's more work done and people have had more time to think about this?
2762022-08-18T19:26:46 <sipa> I think it was very useful that hebasto posted a list of supported/unsupported features in the PR currently.
2772022-08-18T19:27:00 <sipa> That gives a substance to discuss.
2782022-08-18T19:27:20 <hebasto> definitely, the common make targets must be implemented first
2792022-08-18T19:27:50 *** vasild_ <vasild_!~vd@user/vasild> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
2802022-08-18T19:28:11 <sipa> vasild_: What's compile_commands.json?
2812022-08-18T19:28:36 <fanquake> sipa: what we use to run the clang-tidy checks and IWYU in the CI. Basically a .json file of the commands run by the compiler during compilation.
2822022-08-18T19:28:47 <cfields> ack, very helpful for llvm tooling like clang-tidy.
2832022-08-18T19:28:53 <vasild_> sipa: json db thah contains how each .cpp file is compiled - compiler + flags, is used for clang's semantic auto-completion
2842022-08-18T19:28:54 <fanquake> Currently we use a utility called bear to generate it, that intercepts the compiler
2852022-08-18T19:29:04 <sipa> ah, nice
2862022-08-18T19:29:38 <vasild_> sipa: I mean, it needs to compile the code to know better, compared to just a powerful grep + whatnot
2872022-08-18T19:29:43 <laanwj> yes it's a common standard for all kinds of project wide static analysis tooling, apparently
2882022-08-18T19:30:14 * cfields has just been adding make convenience targets *ducks*
2892022-08-18T19:30:53 *** vasild <vasild!~vd@user/vasild> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2902022-08-18T19:30:59 <cfields> joking ofc, automatic json output would be very nice :)
2912022-08-18T19:31:00 <laanwj> that works too
2922022-08-18T19:31:34 <shiza> not sure about bcha, but bchn builds using cmake
2932022-08-18T19:32:24 <vasild_> cmake has -DCMAKE_EXPORT_COMPILE_COMMANDS:BOOL=ON
2942022-08-18T19:32:35 <vasild_> natively
2952022-08-18T19:32:48 <laanwj> yes!
2962022-08-18T19:33:10 <laanwj> i think we've discussed everything for this topic let's move to next one
2972022-08-18T19:33:13 <vasild_> (which works regardless of whether in-tree or out-of-tree build)
2982022-08-18T19:33:23 <hebasto> thank you all
2992022-08-18T19:33:36 <laanwj> #topic vasild for a new maintainer with a focus on P2P/networking
3002022-08-18T19:33:36 <core-meetingbot> topic: vasild for a new maintainer with a focus on P2P/networking
3012022-08-18T19:33:51 <vasild_> Two maintainers stepped down recently (sipa and laanwj) and there is no dedicated maintainer for P2P/networking. So I step in coz I think I can help the project in that way. That's it.
3022022-08-18T19:34:32 *** vasild_ <vasild_!~vd@user/vasild> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
3032022-08-18T19:34:35 <laanwj> i think it would make some sense, you've been the most active in P2P development for quite a while
3042022-08-18T19:34:53 <jarolrod> concept ack, i think vasild_ is very qualified for such a role. And has contributed important changes to the p2p code. He also has done extensive reviews, and catching issues others don't catch
3052022-08-18T19:35:04 <michaelfolkson> +1
3062022-08-18T19:35:29 *** vasild <vasild!~vd@user/vasild> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
3072022-08-18T19:36:18 * vasild was disconnected
3082022-08-18T19:36:32 <shiza> perfect timing
3092022-08-18T19:36:47 <hebasto> concept ack
3102022-08-18T19:37:03 <achow101> ack
3112022-08-18T19:37:07 <lightlike> ack vasild
3122022-08-18T19:37:09 <jonatack> a thought: the past few years vasild, laanwj, and myself have been working on or reviewing a large-ish chunk of net code that few others have been. i believe sipa knows the code well, too, along with (maybe) a couple others. laanwj has been merging these changes. so it makes sense to me that one of these would maintain.
3132022-08-18T19:37:19 <fanquake> re p2p/networking. Are you talking peer interaction / net processing, or lower level networking / sockets. Or both?
3142022-08-18T19:38:02 <vasild> Both
3152022-08-18T19:39:05 <vasild> but I think boundaries are fuzzy
3162022-08-18T19:40:35 <michaelfolkson> If there's no opposition from people here have vasild open a PR adding his trusted keys and see if there is any further discussion there?
3172022-08-18T19:40:46 <cfields> there were lots of concerns around process last time. have those somehow dried up, or are those people simply not here today?
3182022-08-18T19:41:21 <laanwj> there shouldn't be decisions made in the meeting anyhow
3192022-08-18T19:42:24 <michaelfolkson> It is a bit strange. There were concerns about process for installing a maintainer and then PRs got opened about what should be expected from maintainers once installed
3202022-08-18T19:42:51 <michaelfolkson> They seem orthogonal to me
3212022-08-18T19:43:20 <laanwj> yeah...
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3232022-08-18T19:44:03 <michaelfolkson> But there was discussion on the trusted keys PR for Gloria which I think was mostly productive. So doing that again for vasild seems like the way to go
3242022-08-18T19:44:41 <michaelfolkson> (if there is anything to discuss)
3252022-08-18T19:44:54 <cfields> agreed. i'm sure they'll speak up again there.
3262022-08-18T19:45:12 <vasild> So I guess I open PR and see what happens there?
3272022-08-18T19:45:32 <jarolrod> i hope we don't move towards too much bureaucracy with how the project moves/works
3282022-08-18T19:45:47 <jarolrod> ^ in relation to documenting the exact role of maintainers
3292022-08-18T19:47:49 <laanwj> sgtm
3302022-08-18T19:48:08 <laanwj> any other topics?
3312022-08-18T19:48:10 <jonatack> i have some ideas about maintainership standards that would be in the spirit of carrying on laanwj's style in a possibly more decentralized way, but that's for another day
3322022-08-18T19:48:17 <jonatack> ack vasild for me in any case
3332022-08-18T19:48:28 <laanwj> jonatack: +1
3342022-08-18T19:49:09 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] furszy opened pull request #25869: wallet: remove UNKNOWN type from OUTPUT_TYPES array (master...2022_fix_output_type_fuzz) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/25869
3352022-08-18T19:49:21 <laanwj> if nothing else, that concludes the meeting for today
3362022-08-18T19:49:25 <laanwj> #endmeeting
3372022-08-18T19:49:25 <core-meetingbot> topic: Bitcoin Core development discussion and commit log | Feel free to watch, but please take commentary and usage questions to #bitcoin | Channel logs: http://www.erisian.com.au/bitcoin-core-dev/, http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/ | Meeting topics http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedmeetingtopics.txt / http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedwalletmeetingtopics.txt
3382022-08-18T19:49:25 <core-meetingbot> Meeting ended Thu Aug 18 19:49:24 2022 UTC.
3392022-08-18T19:49:25 <core-meetingbot> Minutes: https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings/logs/bitcoin-core-dev/2022/bitcoin-core-dev.2022-08-18-19.00.moin.txt
3402022-08-18T19:49:58 <michaelfolkson> Thanks!
3412022-08-18T19:51:45 * vasild zZzZ
3422022-08-18T19:55:09 <jonatack> (the "couple others" i was referring to above are dongcarl and cfields, but i'm not sure) o/
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3492022-08-18T20:35:59 <jeremyrubin> > there were lots of concerns around process last time. have those somehow dried up, or are those people simply not here today?
3502022-08-18T20:36:10 <jeremyrubin> simply not present; i had a real-world obligation today
3512022-08-18T20:38:35 <jeremyrubin> w.r.t. the docs being put forth, i'm not sure what document michaelfolkson is looking at, but the docs i wrote up were trying to handle the elements that were being discussed, and not orthogonal stuff. majority of the docs are around process for adding maintainers
3522022-08-18T20:39:38 <jeremyrubin> the point of "what maintainers do once installed" is that we had offered up people as scoped maintainers, as vasild is being proposed to be, and then it was clear that was not actually a defined thing, so the notion of a scoped maintainer is basically "undefined behavior"
3532022-08-18T20:40:12 <jeremyrubin> as such, a guide trying to document what an installation process is had to also do the lift of defining what the role people are being installed into is
3542022-08-18T20:41:23 <jeremyrubin> people balked at a new document containing both descriptive of status quo and new process, so those have been split up with #25839 being just a minimal description of what is done today
3552022-08-18T20:41:24 <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/25839 | [WIP] Minimal MAINTAINERS.md file by JeremyRubin · Pull Request #25839 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
3562022-08-18T20:43:25 <jeremyrubin> i am personally strongly opposed to adding _any maintainer_ at this time, although i have minimal qualms with vasild, i dont think we are setting our project up for success by adding maintainers in the manner we are doing it presently
3572022-08-18T20:51:31 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/a8f69541ad53...888628cee00c
3582022-08-18T20:51:32 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 416ceb8 w0xlt: descriptor: check if `rawtr` has only one key.
3592022-08-18T20:51:32 <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 888628c Andrew Chow: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#25827: descriptor: check if `rawtr` has only one key.
3602022-08-18T20:51:33 <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 merged pull request #25827: descriptor: check if `rawtr` has only one key. (master...expr_rawtr) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/25827
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3622022-08-18T21:17:13 <jeremyrubin> I've opened up a Call For Maintainer process here https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/25870
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3652022-08-18T21:37:59 <michaelfolkson> jeremyrubin: So you would like to consider jonatack as a possible alternative to vasild although you have minimal qualms with vasild. Ok I guess question to jonatack. Would you like to put your name forward as a possible alternative to vasild?
3662022-08-18T21:39:14 <michaelfolkson> jonatack has ACKed this
3672022-08-18T21:39:58 <michaelfolkson> If he had misgivings and thought he would be better for this role I doubt he would have ACKed it
3682022-08-18T21:44:32 <michaelfolkson> Ok so the 2 man band in the issue are fine with vasild but would like to propose jonatack as an additional maintainer after that
3692022-08-18T21:46:31 <michaelfolkson> So we're still in the position where vasild should open his trusted keys PR for further discussion there. And the two man band can propose jonatack for a maintainer role in the meeting next week where that can be considered/discussed
3702022-08-18T21:48:44 <michaelfolkson> (I actually agree that jonatack would be an excellent candidate for maintainer also but that wasn't the subject of today's meeting)
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3772022-08-18T22:29:28 <achow101> I do not think we should discuss any further on whether a particular person is a good fit for maintainer before they have stated that they are willing to be a maintainer
3782022-08-18T22:29:52 <achow101> as otherwise we may put undue pressure (in either direction) on that decision
3792022-08-18T22:30:10 <achow101> remember that maintainership is a position people volunteer for, not be appointed to
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3822022-08-18T22:34:10 <michaelfolkson> achow101: Agreed
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