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 982022-11-03T08:31:08  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Sjors opened pull request #26445: .python-version: bump patch version to 3.6.15 (master...2022/11/pyenv) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26445
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1172022-11-03T10:29:25  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/5274f324375f...2a7c9984dbc1
1182022-11-03T10:29:25  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master fa3ea81 MacroFake: refactor: Add LIFETIMEBOUND / -Wdangling-gsl to Assert()
1192022-11-03T10:29:25  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 2a7c998 fanquake: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#25248: refactor: Add LIFETIMEBOUND / -Wdangling-gsl ...
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1222022-11-03T10:33:41  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #25248: refactor: Add LIFETIMEBOUND / -Wdangling-gsl to Assert() (master...2205-assert-lifetime-🐜) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/25248
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1312022-11-03T11:53:54  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] hebasto opened pull request #26446: build: Drop unneeded linking of `contrib/devtools/` scripts (master...221103-checks) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26446
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1332022-11-03T12:04:10  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] Sjors closed pull request #26351: guix: bump time-machine to 39dcbc7fa3c02ff5c9682f25e1c29667dbfe7827 (master...2022/10/guix-bump-timemachine) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26351
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1382022-11-03T12:31:40  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/2a7c9984dbc1...28653a596ab7
1392022-11-03T12:31:40  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 29fa38a Sjors Provoost: .python-version: bump patch version to 3.6.15
1402022-11-03T12:31:40  <bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 28653a5 MacroFake: Merge bitcoin/bitcoin#26445: .python-version: bump patch version to 3.6.15
1412022-11-03T12:31:54  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke merged pull request #26445: .python-version: bump patch version to 3.6.15 (master...2022/11/pyenv) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26445
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1902022-11-03T15:10:07  <fanquake> Code signatures for v22.1rc1 are now up: https://github.com/bitcoin-core/bitcoin-detached-sigs/releases/tag/v22.1rc1
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1962022-11-03T15:24:45  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] tfomyuk opened pull request #26447: not "important" anymore! (master...master) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26447
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1992022-11-03T15:25:50  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #26447: not "important" anymore! (master...master) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26447
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2312022-11-03T17:06:11  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] mzumsande opened pull request #26448: test: fix intermittent failure in p2p_sendtxrcncl.py (master...202211_fix_sendtxrcncl) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26448
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2472022-11-03T18:17:49  <bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] theStack opened pull request #26449: rpc: doc: add missing option "bech32m" for `change_type` parameters (master...202211-rpc_doc_add_missing_bech32m_for_changetype_params) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/26449
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2592022-11-03T19:01:20  <achow101> meeting?
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2612022-11-03T19:01:35  <Murch> hi
2622022-11-03T19:03:22  <achow101> Or I guess I can do that
2632022-11-03T19:03:28  <achow101> #startmeeting
2642022-11-03T19:03:28  <core-meetingbot> Meeting started Thu Nov  3 19:03:28 2022 UTC.  The chair is achow101. Information about MeetBot at https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings.
2652022-11-03T19:03:29  <core-meetingbot> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
2662022-11-03T19:03:29  <brunoerg> hi
2672022-11-03T19:03:45  <jonatack> hi
2682022-11-03T19:03:48  <luke-jr> hi
2692022-11-03T19:03:54  <sipa> hi
2702022-11-03T19:03:57  <furszy> hi
2712022-11-03T19:03:59  <achow101> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: achow101 _aj_ amiti ariard b10c BlueMatt cfields Chris_Stewart_5 darosior digi_james dongcarl elichai2 emilengler fanquake fjahr gleb glozow gmaxwell gwillen hebasto instagibbs jamesob jarolrod jb55 jeremyrubin jl2012 jnewbery jonasschnelli jonatack jtimon kallewoof kanzure kvaciral laanwj larryruane lightlike luke-jr maaku marcofalke meshcollider michagogo moneyball morcos nehan NicolasDorier paveljanik petertodd
2722022-11-03T19:03:59  <achow101> phantomcircuit promag provoostenator ryanofsky sdaftuar sipa vasild
2732022-11-03T19:04:07  <lightlike> hi
2742022-11-03T19:04:07  <hebasto> hi
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2762022-11-03T19:04:18  <achow101> I think DST changed in Europe last weekend, so some people may be off by an hour
2772022-11-03T19:05:11  <achow101> There is one pre-proposed meeting topic this week: Silent Payments #24897 and Privacy in Bitcoin Core Wallet (bytes1440000)
2782022-11-03T19:05:13  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/24897 | [Draft / POC] Silent Payments by w0xlt · Pull Request #24897 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
2792022-11-03T19:05:17  <ajonas> hi
2802022-11-03T19:05:32  <achow101> we'll start with the usual high priority though
2812022-11-03T19:05:40  <achow101> #topic High priority for review
2822022-11-03T19:05:40  <core-meetingbot> topic: High priority for review
2832022-11-03T19:06:03  <luke-jr> is w0xlt_ here?
2842022-11-03T19:06:18  <achow101> https://github.com/orgs/bitcoin/projects/1
2852022-11-03T19:06:24  <achow101> anything to add/remove/merge?
2862022-11-03T19:08:49  * luke-jr prods a cricket
2872022-11-03T19:09:01  <sipa> crick
2882022-11-03T19:09:18  <achow101> #topic Silent Payments #24897 and Privacy in Bitcoin Core Wallet (bytes1440000)
2892022-11-03T19:09:18  <core-meetingbot> topic: Silent Payments #24897 and Privacy in Bitcoin Core Wallet (bytes1440000)
2902022-11-03T19:09:20  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/24897 | [Draft / POC] Silent Payments by w0xlt · Pull Request #24897 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
2912022-11-03T19:09:20  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/24897 | [Draft / POC] Silent Payments by w0xlt · Pull Request #24897 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
2922022-11-03T19:09:40  <Murch> #proposedmeetingtopic To release mempoolfullrbf or not to release mempoolfullrbf
2932022-11-03T19:10:16  <jamesob> hi
2942022-11-03T19:10:54  <achow101> I think silent payments would be nice to have. not sure what bytes1440000 wanted to discuss
2952022-11-03T19:11:06  <lightlike> looks like bytes1440000 isn't in the channel
2962022-11-03T19:11:15  *** bytes1440000 <bytes1440000!~bytes1440@212-83-165-160.rev.poneytelecom.eu> has joined #bitcoin-core-dev
2972022-11-03T19:11:17  <luke-jr> he tends to lurk via logs or something
2982022-11-03T19:11:18  <luke-jr> see
2992022-11-03T19:11:19  <achow101> they also don't appear to be here, so perhaps we can skip this topic for this week
3002022-11-03T19:11:27  <Murch> Yeah, silent payments seem pretty cool
3012022-11-03T19:11:46  <Murch> Bring it up next week again
3022022-11-03T19:11:53  <brunoerg> Agreed
3032022-11-03T19:11:53  <bytes1440000> why?
3042022-11-03T19:12:01  <Murch> Ah, they're here
3052022-11-03T19:12:13  <Murch> What's your topic?
3062022-11-03T19:13:17  <bytes1440000> its a basic thing thats lacking and nobody likes bip47
3072022-11-03T19:13:34  <sipa> i don't think there is any disagreement about that
3082022-11-03T19:13:35  <instagibbs> what's the call to action here
3092022-11-03T19:13:52  <sipa> it seems like a cool scheme, i'm glad to see it being worked on
3102022-11-03T19:13:52  <bytes1440000> ruben did the research why not use it
3112022-11-03T19:14:08  <luke-jr> michaelfolkson seemed to be questioning it, but IMO there's no reason to exclude it when it's ready
3122022-11-03T19:14:30  <luke-jr> bytes1440000: we should, as soon as it's ready
3132022-11-03T19:14:53  <bytes1440000> i agree with luke-jr
3142022-11-03T19:15:09  <achow101> no rason we shouldn't, but it's still work in progress, no?
3152022-11-03T19:15:20  <bytes1440000> yes
3162022-11-03T19:15:41  <sipa> the PR is listed as proof-of-concept, and there seem to be some unresolved discussion about the scheme's security
3172022-11-03T19:15:43  <bytes1440000> pls review it
3182022-11-03T19:16:02  <RubenSomsen> hey
3192022-11-03T19:16:12  <lightlike> the PR says "The purpose of this PR is not a final version, but to start the discussion and get benchmarks based on a real implementation."  - so it seems like it's not intended for merge anytime soon by the author?
3202022-11-03T19:16:26  <luke-jr> I think it could benefit from being split up. Sending support seems like it should be a very small change as step 1 IMO.
3212022-11-03T19:16:42  <luke-jr> as soon as the spec is finalised
3222022-11-03T19:16:47  <Murch> Some people expressed interest in contributing to it when I talked to them in Atlanta
3232022-11-03T19:16:50  <instagibbs> right I think it's chicken and spec egg
3242022-11-03T19:16:52  <Murch> I think it'll get some attention
3252022-11-03T19:16:53  <RubenSomsen> sipa: I discussed the security concerns with andytoshi and others, and it doesn't seem like there are any large issues
3262022-11-03T19:16:53  <luke-jr> though I guess that may block on the wallet end
3272022-11-03T19:17:02  <sipa> RubenSomsen: ah, good to hear
3282022-11-03T19:17:32  <instagibbs> RubenSomsen, link to list of concerns just for my perusal
3292022-11-03T19:17:34  <instagibbs> ?
3302022-11-03T19:17:56  <instagibbs> anyways, fine after meeting
3312022-11-03T19:18:23  <sipa> instagibbs: chicken and spegg
3322022-11-03T19:19:25  <luke-jr> bytes1440000: anything specific to discuss about it?
3332022-11-03T19:19:54  <RubenSomsen> instagibbs: https://github.com/bitcoin-core/secp256k1/pull/1143#issuecomment-1273547571
3342022-11-03T19:21:09  <instagibbs> thanks
3352022-11-03T19:21:16  <achow101> I think that's the end of that topic
3362022-11-03T19:21:23  <bytes1440000> i will bring chicken pls merge this... luke-jr: its pending because 2 major wallet devs in this repo didnt review and it was not never up for one review channel..
3372022-11-03T19:21:30  <achow101> #topic To release mempoolfullrbf or not to release mempoolfullrbf (Murch)
3382022-11-03T19:21:30  <core-meetingbot> topic: To release mempoolfullrbf or not to release mempoolfullrbf (Murch)
3392022-11-03T19:21:48  <bytes1440000> Its a basic feature
3402022-11-03T19:22:07  <luke-jr> bytes1440000: it's nowhere near ready for merge still AFAICT. there are no required specific-person reviews either.
3412022-11-03T19:22:15  <instagibbs> it looks like it's getting reasonable attention for the stage it's at
3422022-11-03T19:22:36  <sipa> bytes1440000: you won't find disagreement here, but it won't be merged without being finished (even by the author's own thoughts) and properly reviewed.
3432022-11-03T19:22:54  <luke-jr> 24.x is already feature-frozen with mempoolfullrbf as an option. There is no bug. So I see no justification to revert.
3442022-11-03T19:22:56  <bytes1440000> luke-jr: whats lacking?
3452022-11-03T19:23:17  <Murch> So, it seems that the `mempoolfullrbf` startup option is pretty controversial, but removing it is also getting NACKs, so I'm curious whether 24.0 should be released with or without the `mempoolfullrbf` option
3462022-11-03T19:23:20  <sipa> bytes1440000: and it's not unreasonable to ask people to prioritize it, but that's ultimately up to them. As far as I can tell, it's getting plenty of attention, but it's not nearly there.
3472022-11-03T19:24:12  <luke-jr> bytes1440000: I'd have to look at if my previous comments were addressed, but at least I don't see a BIP yet.
3482022-11-03T19:24:21  <sipa> So perhaps it's worth putting on the high-prio list?
3492022-11-03T19:24:21  <brunoerg> If we decide to release it with `mempoolfullrbf`, is it gonna be true or false by default?
3502022-11-03T19:24:23  <lightlike> before even thinking about merging, it would be helpful for the author to put it out of draft - if they think it is mature enough for that.
3512022-11-03T19:24:38  <bytes1440000> sipa: i do not disagree with you but get disappointed when prs like this are pending for years
3522022-11-03T19:24:40  <Murch> brunoerg: It's currently defaulting to `false`
3532022-11-03T19:24:49  <jonatack> It may be useful to list the open PR mempoolfullrbf proposals in question
3542022-11-03T19:24:59  <brunoerg> Murch: sounds good, thanks
3552022-11-03T19:25:02  <sipa> bytes1440000: This one seems to be making great progress. I wouldn't call it "pending" for anything.
3562022-11-03T19:25:03  <luke-jr> brunoerg: it's currently false by default, and I think it should remain so for 24.x for the same reason
3572022-11-03T19:25:05  <jonatack> as there are/have been several
3582022-11-03T19:25:17  <brunoerg> luke-jr: I agree
3592022-11-03T19:25:50  <Murch> bytes1440000: Silent payments was proposed in March this year. It's not been years.
3602022-11-03T19:25:51  <luke-jr> bytes1440000: IMO once the authors are satisfied with the design, next steps are a BIP, and then wallet sending-only support
3612022-11-03T19:26:42  <bytes1440000> then maybe wrong
3622022-11-03T19:26:53  <achow101> jonatack: #26438 #26287 and the "do nothing" proposal
3632022-11-03T19:26:54  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/26438 | Remove mempoolfullrbf option by sdaftuar · Pull Request #26438 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
3642022-11-03T19:26:56  <gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/26287 | Temporarily disable -mempoolfullrbf for the main chain by MarcoFalke · Pull Request #26287 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
3652022-11-03T19:26:56  <Murch> Are we still talking about silent payments or about mempoolfullrbf?
3662022-11-03T19:27:07  <luke-jr> both >_<
3672022-11-03T19:27:29  <Murch> Happy to finish SP if there is more to talk about
3682022-11-03T19:27:36  <Murch> But I don't have the impression that there is.
3692022-11-03T19:27:49  <bytes1440000> no just merge it
3702022-11-03T19:27:58  <achow101> no, that's not helpful
3712022-11-03T19:28:09  <luke-jr> I guess we could discuss the RPC interfaces. I think it should use the existing RPCs for the first wallet-support step. But that's past sending-only and BIP…
3722022-11-03T19:28:15  <NorrinRadd> also a good summary: https://github.com/glozow/bitcoin-notes/blob/full-rbf/full-rbf.md
3732022-11-03T19:28:17  <sipa> bytes1440000: Now you're being obnoxious. It clearly can't be merged before even the author thinks it's ready.
3742022-11-03T19:28:40  <Murch> bytes1440000: If you're trying to be taken seriously, you're failing miserably.
3752022-11-03T19:28:54  <luke-jr> bytes1440000: it's not even ready enough for me to consider for Knots. :/
3762022-11-03T19:29:13  <sipa> Just because a scheme is cool doesn't mean it's ready.
3772022-11-03T19:29:33  <sipa> Now let's move on.
3782022-11-03T19:29:39  <luke-jr> bytes1440000: we all want it, but it's just not there yet.
3792022-11-03T19:30:19  <instagibbs> Murch, take it away
3802022-11-03T19:30:46  <Murch> Alright. So `mempoolfullrbf` is merged, it defaults to false. There are at least two proposals to revert it in one way or another, one to just move ahead, and a few dozen emails on the mailing list as well as numerous comments on PRs
3812022-11-03T19:31:16  <Murch> Clearly, the feature is controversial
3822022-11-03T19:31:29  <Murch> I find arguments on both sides rather weak
3832022-11-03T19:32:00  <luke-jr> IMO there are no valid arguments for denying users the right to decide.
3842022-11-03T19:32:28  <RubenSomsen> bytes1440000: josie[m] expressed interest in writing a Silent Payments BIP starting this January
3852022-11-03T19:32:48  <NorrinRadd> is it possible to keep a running tally of how individuals feel on this topic.  I've observed a couple weeks of meetings and I think the context gets forgotten from week to week. There is disagreement and without written records it is difficult for anyone to remember where everyone else stands
3862022-11-03T19:33:00  <luke-jr> arguments for/against full RBF, are not arguments against letting users choose their own policy
3872022-11-03T19:33:24  <luke-jr> NorrinRadd: it's not a consensus rule, or a rule at all. It's a policy, which each user can decide for himself.
3882022-11-03T19:33:26  <sipa> luke-jr: But we need some bar for inclusion. We don't support every random policy choice that someone may come up with.
3892022-11-03T19:33:32  <achow101> NorrinRadd: people's opinions have changed recently though
3902022-11-03T19:33:34  <Murch> luke-jr: We do want mempools across the network to be homogeneous for blocks to propagate as well as possible, and the capability to “opt-out” of replaceability is actively being used on the network.
3912022-11-03T19:33:35  <bytes1440000> no arguments against full RBF as an option
3922022-11-03T19:33:44  <luke-jr> sipa: we should, if there are users who want it, and developers who will support it.
3932022-11-03T19:33:53  <sipa> And everyone can already choose for themselves, by choosing the software they run.
3942022-11-03T19:34:01  <luke-jr> Murch: no, mempools should not be homogeneous
3952022-11-03T19:34:27  <Murch> luke-jr, care to elaborate?
3962022-11-03T19:34:40  <sipa> I don't know where I stand right now. But it's a more nuanced discussion then "we have to let people choose".
3972022-11-03T19:35:00  <luke-jr> sipa: if nobody wanted to support the feature, that's different from obstructing it when developers are willing to support it
3982022-11-03T19:35:16  <sipa> That's fair.
3992022-11-03T19:35:24  <NorrinRadd> achow101 yes the tally can always be updated accordingly
4002022-11-03T19:35:30  <jonatack> Given the controversial nature of adding the option, the most prudent course may be "do no harm" and not include it for v24, while continuing discussion for future releases
4012022-11-03T19:35:41  <luke-jr> Murch: homogeneous mempools implies a central policy dictator(s)
4022022-11-03T19:35:56  <luke-jr> jonatack: it doesn't do harm
4032022-11-03T19:36:04  <achow101> in the interest of getting 24 out the door, perhaps we should revert for 24.0 only, and then we can keep having this discussion for the next 6 months before 25
4042022-11-03T19:36:17  <luke-jr> jonatack: users who don't want it (and who don't care) are entirely unaffected
4052022-11-03T19:36:22  <jonatack> as it is clear that the current level of discussion did not fully take place when the decision to merge the option was made
4062022-11-03T19:36:25  <sipa> luke-jr: I disagree with that. People have an incentive to choose largely similar policies, as long as they don't have specific objections.
4072022-11-03T19:36:48  <Murch> jonatack: that sounds like a fair assessment to me
4082022-11-03T19:36:55  <luke-jr> sipa: they might coincidentally overlap, but that's different IMO
4092022-11-03T19:37:01  <lightlike> would reverting it in 24 but keeping it in master be a compromise?
4102022-11-03T19:37:20  <luke-jr> reverting it in 24.x should require a bug in it.
4112022-11-03T19:37:23  <luke-jr> there is no bug in it.
4122022-11-03T19:37:35  <luke-jr> controversy over an option is not a bug.
4132022-11-03T19:37:44  <NorrinRadd> achow101 i agree
4142022-11-03T19:37:54  <NorrinRadd> jonatack i agree
4152022-11-03T19:38:03  <luke-jr> you have a vocal minority arguing that they should force EVERYONE to use their policy preference
4162022-11-03T19:38:12  <bytes1440000> NACK to all PRs trying to revert a basic option that is false by default
4172022-11-03T19:38:20  <luke-jr> even if it was a majority, they should not be forcing it on people who disagree
4182022-11-03T19:39:33  <bytes1440000> If some business or project is affected by this, they should hire new security devs
4192022-11-03T19:39:38  <NorrinRadd> bruno and luke-jr seems to agree to leaving it to false also
4202022-11-03T19:39:39  <achow101> the option to run use the option would still be there for those who care. it's in knots, its in 3 rcs, and it'll be in master too
4212022-11-03T19:40:12  <luke-jr> achow101: doesn't mean we should give in to bullying for 24.0
4222022-11-03T19:40:57  <NorrinRadd> businesses that depend zero conf should look to investing into lightning as soon as possible it seems.
4232022-11-03T19:41:10  <brunoerg> NorrinRadd: +1
4242022-11-03T19:41:31  <Murch> NorrinRadd: TBF, Muun and Bitrefill seem to agree, but just are asking for more time before an option is deployed
4252022-11-03T19:41:34  <NorrinRadd> maybe there can be some economic way of incentivizing that more
4262022-11-03T19:41:45  <Murch> Synonym seems to be a bit less flexible in their expectations.
4272022-11-03T19:42:50  <luke-jr> there has been an option for years
4282022-11-03T19:42:53  <achow101> luke-jr: however some of the people who supported the option originally have changed their minds about releasing it
4292022-11-03T19:43:42  <luke-jr> achow101: does that matter?
4302022-11-03T19:43:46  <sipa> I believe it's a misconception that the presence of a default-off option isn't going to materially affect anyone. But I've also learned that one of the reasons why the option was being proposed in the first place was perhaps not nearly as strong (there is little gained for any real use case today by the policy change).
4312022-11-03T19:43:55  <luke-jr> achow101: they don't get to force users any more than anyone else
4322022-11-03T19:43:59  <sipa> *is going to materially affect anyone
4332022-11-03T19:44:20  <bytes1440000> murch: the kind of misinformation shared by those, I cannot trust not sure about others
4342022-11-03T19:44:43  <Murch> I have recently gained more appreciation for the idea of people wanting to provide a social signal in the form of signaling the intent not to replace, even if that is technically not enforceable
4352022-11-03T19:44:50  <instagibbs> sipa, removing an option will likely effect it more, perhaps
4362022-11-03T19:45:33  <achow101> luke-jr: I wouldn't say that those against the option are bullying, especially since they have convinced some people, although there definitely are some people bullying
4372022-11-03T19:45:38  <bytes1440000> its not default and okay
4382022-11-03T19:45:43  <luke-jr> Murch: they can still signal that
4392022-11-03T19:45:45  <Murch> Since everyone has to pick a `nSequence` for every input on every transaction, it's essentially already as much “opt-in” as it is “opt-out”
4402022-11-03T19:46:01  <sipa> instagibbs: Yeah, I think the longer the controversy rages, the higher the percentage of people is going to be that go out of their way to turn on fullrbf. That may actually have a bigger effect than having the option available in a release.
4412022-11-03T19:46:09  <NorrinRadd> achow101 you can mention who they are?
4422022-11-03T19:46:18  <instagibbs> sipa, they're going to run preferential peering
4432022-11-03T19:46:23  <sipa> Though I also think that that percentage will remain small.
4442022-11-03T19:46:23  <instagibbs> most likely
4452022-11-03T19:46:35  <NorrinRadd> (if someone does collect a tally, maybe chat logs can help populate it)
4462022-11-03T19:46:37  <instagibbs> if it's "just a cherry pick", well, that one is pretty small
4472022-11-03T19:46:53  <NorrinRadd> luke-jr what's the solution for synonym?
4482022-11-03T19:47:13  <luke-jr> ?
4492022-11-03T19:47:20  <bytes1440000> Peter Todds mentioned privacy
4502022-11-03T19:48:10  <bytes1440000> Privacy is worse with his method on ml
4512022-11-03T19:48:16  <sipa> I don't feel this is the right place to discuss the disadvantages/advantages of actually having the fullrbf policy deployed on the network.
4522022-11-03T19:48:25  <luke-jr> NorrinRadd: I don't know what Synonym is, but I'm sure if they're relying on unconfirmed transactions, their system is already broken
4532022-11-03T19:49:14  <bytes1440000> just run knots and core
4542022-11-03T19:50:26  <bytes1440000> and wait for core release
4552022-11-03T19:51:31  <NorrinRadd> most here seem to agree to leaving the option present and defaulting it to off.
4562022-11-03T19:51:52  <Murch> So, stupid question. We require rough consensus to merge stuff. `mempoolfullrbf` had support when it got merged, but the reversal doesn't seem to have rough consensus. I don't think it would have clear support to be merged today either.
4572022-11-03T19:52:01  <Murch> So where does that leave us with the release?
4582022-11-03T19:52:12  <NorrinRadd> I think that's ultimately the way it will fully activated, as it will be left up to users and not this minute group of people that dev but do not fully dictate to all users and miners
4592022-11-03T19:52:19  <achow101> Murch: with releasing it I think
4602022-11-03T19:52:43  <luke-jr> Murch: still feature-frozen, as it has been for weeks?
4612022-11-03T19:53:03  <NorrinRadd> achow101 ++
4622022-11-03T19:53:58  <NorrinRadd> unless there's some severe consequences to leaving the option and defaulting to off, i don't see why it cannot be left in
4632022-11-03T19:54:18  <Murch> luke-jr: I think that the “rough consensus” that the feature had when it got merged predated the discussion that the feature prompted. so did it actually have rough consensus or just sneak by?
4642022-11-03T19:55:19  <NorrinRadd> am i correct in thinking that the people that would directly affect the zero conf businesses would be miners if a good amount of them decided to begin prioritizing higher fee txs?
4652022-11-03T19:55:21  <luke-jr> Murch: discussions after feature freeze, are for future releases
4662022-11-03T19:55:49  <bytes1440000> NorrinRadd RBF by default is done-NACK
4672022-11-03T19:55:50  <bytes1440000> ALL this is POLITICS
4682022-11-03T19:56:13  <Murch> NorrinRadd: Businesses relying on providing unbacked credit on a transaction pinky promising finality, yes
4692022-11-03T19:56:18  <luke-jr> bytes1440000: Full RBF has never been default in Core, and isn't now
4702022-11-03T19:56:53  <bytes1440000> luke-jr: it was never and I never said it was
4712022-11-03T19:57:09  <Murch> So, clearly such businesses are affected, but I have yet to see a direct benefit that we expect from releasing `mempoolfullrbf`
4722022-11-03T19:57:23  <Murch> It seems such benefits are either theoretical or tenuous
4732022-11-03T19:57:48  <Murch> So are we releasing it just to show zeroconf businesses that they shouldn't be relying on unconfirmed transactions?
4742022-11-03T19:58:01  <instagibbs> You'll likely make uptake worse if you remove it
4752022-11-03T19:58:23  <achow101> instagibbs: this entire discussion has made uptake worse
4762022-11-03T19:58:25  <Murch> Because that's circular reasoning
4772022-11-03T19:58:26  <Murch> And I don't think it's urgent to show them they're wrong
4782022-11-03T19:58:34  <sipa> (or better)
4792022-11-03T19:58:37  <sipa> depending on your POV
4802022-11-03T19:58:41  <instagibbs> haha yes sipa
4812022-11-03T19:58:48  <Murch> instagibbs: I'll take Streisand Effect for 100 plesae
4822022-11-03T19:59:02  <NorrinRadd> Murch Re: direct benefit, i read something very convincing in glozow's summary page.  it's basic economics.  miners naturally want to select the highest fee txs.  we can artificially tell them to not do that?
4832022-11-03T19:59:16  <Murch> So, maybe we're all getting what we want by removing it? :D
4842022-11-03T19:59:32  <sipa> NorrinRadd: It's really not that simple. But I think that's a discussion for the ML.
4852022-11-03T19:59:36  <Murch> that was my idea of a joke, for the people later reading this log >_>
4862022-11-03T20:00:47  <luke-jr> Murch: it's certainly tempting to just sit back and let Core remove it, then tell people it's yet another reason they should be using Knots instead :P
4872022-11-03T20:00:56  <achow101> we're at the top of the hour so I'll going to end the meeting now, but feel free to continue discussing
4882022-11-03T20:00:59  <achow101> #endmeeting
4892022-11-03T20:00:59  <core-meetingbot> topic: Bitcoin Core development discussion and commit log | Feel free to watch, but please take commentary and usage questions to #bitcoin | Channel logs: http://www.erisian.com.au/bitcoin-core-dev/, http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/ | Meeting topics http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedmeetingtopics.txt / http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedwalletmeetingtopics.txt
4902022-11-03T20:00:59  <core-meetingbot> Meeting ended Thu Nov  3 20:00:59 2022 UTC.
4912022-11-03T20:00:59  <core-meetingbot> Minutes:        https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings/logs/bitcoin-core-dev/2022/bitcoin-core-dev.2022-11-03-19.03.moin.txt
4922022-11-03T20:01:03  <sipa> it's robotime
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4942022-11-03T20:04:56  <kanzure> if zeroconf businesses like it for the convenience then they will really get a kick out of just giving away products for free (it's even more convenient)
4952022-11-03T20:05:30  <bytes1440000> I just wanted to mention one thing before... privacy is everything... if alice sends 0.01 btc to bob but bob can verify nobody in the world should know what happened
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4972022-11-03T20:06:43  <laanwj> oops... i forgot about the hour change somehow
4982022-11-03T20:06:57  <instagibbs> best privacy is to never move your coins ever
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5002022-11-03T20:07:23  <sipa> how about never having any coins to begin with?
5012022-11-03T20:07:27  <luke-jr> XD
5022022-11-03T20:07:27  <sipa> or other money, of any kind
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5042022-11-03T20:07:42  <kanzure> they can't sanction your property if you don't have any property
5052022-11-03T20:07:42  <achow101> lose them all in a boating accident
5062022-11-03T20:07:49  <luke-jr> reminds me of the meme where a gorilla says humans are dumb for having money
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5102022-11-03T20:13:00  <bytes1440000> sipa will find a way since everyone is talking about zkp
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5142022-11-03T20:24:26  <laanwj> ah yess "welcome to 2030. i own nothing, have perfect privacy due to that, and life has never been better" wasn't it
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5352022-11-03T22:43:02  <luke-jr> kind of weird that chain.hasAssumedValidChain() has nothing to do with assumevalid :x
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